PDA

View Full Version : Questions and concerns


indianajones9
02-22-2002, 05:10 PM
In the trailer, it looks as though Kyle is wielding a baseball bat as opposed to a lightsaber. I say this because when he strikes an enemy, they fly several feet backwards. Shouldn't it just slice them instead? Watch the trailer with this fact in mind.

Also, i read in a very early interview that there would be an advanced physics system to allow some interesting puzzles and stradegies for killing. Have yall heard any more of this, if so where could I go for more info. I think realistic physics add a great dimension to games.

The game is looking fantastic, these are just a couple of concerns. Thanks.

Sure wish i could find that Pc gamer uk scan. ~~~~

simon says
02-22-2002, 05:15 PM
Maybe he didn't hit the enemy, but the enemy jumped back? And what does 'advanced physics' mean? Running on walls is not very realistic in terms of physics (not the way Kyle does it anyways).....gravity is in the game though ;)

indianajones9
02-22-2002, 05:27 PM
No, they were knocked off their feet by the saber.

By advanced physics i mean when I throw an object will it react realistically. If I use the force and throw a stormtrooper or a crate, when it hits the ground will it roll or slide or bounce realistically or will it just land. Hitman had a good physics system. I hate when i kill an enemy and most of their body is hanging off a cliff. In the early preview i read it mentioned force throwing something down a lfight of steps and it bounced and rolled realistically. Anyone?

indianajones9
02-22-2002, 05:52 PM
What are your biggest concerns about the game?

Jedi Legend
02-22-2002, 06:18 PM
My biggest concern is how it will run on my system. I have a good processor and a decent 3d card but I only have 128 megabytes of ram. Another concern is the controls. I hope it isn't to difficult to control the saber and acrobatics.

Bio Warrior
02-22-2002, 06:19 PM
my concern is if my dumb celeron 566 can run it at full or close to full (even if it a lil choppy)

Agen
02-22-2002, 06:44 PM
They are using ghoul 2 which is even more advanced in physics as hitman. SoF used Ghoul 1.

JediDante
02-22-2002, 06:45 PM
Mine is weather or not the game will be able to run good on my system

Belgirion
02-22-2002, 07:27 PM
mines weather or not im banned from my pc (bad grades) when JO comes out :D

B0MBER II
02-22-2002, 08:15 PM
I don't care, he could be using the force but this game looks great.

Silent_Thunder
02-22-2002, 08:32 PM
Part of my concern is similar to yours... I'm worried that JO won't really feel like a Star wars game, but feel more like a "Quake 3 Mod".

The elegant lightsaber is now a baseball bat, which I thought looked rather funny (not that that's good...) in the trailer, and now, there's trip mines, rocket launchers, flak cannons, and more then half of the weapons use METAL bullets!! And to top it all off, there's a Phaser like weapon (disrupter) which acts very similar to something Elite Force might have... (BTW, the bow caster in JK used bullets, but they weren't metal).

I dunno... I'm sure Raven can make great games; with good story, nice graphics, good gameplay, ect, but I don't think Jedi Outcast will feel like Star Wars. I think it will be very fun, but just won't feel like part of the Galaxy Far Far away...

My other concerns are purely Gameplay...

I'm worried about how force speed in SP (and MP, but I'll get to that later) will be implemented. Incase whosoever is reading this doesn't know, Force speed will be similar to "bullet time" from Max Pane (sp?). It slows down the environment around the user, while keeping Kyle moving at the same normal speed. This seems like a tremendes advantage over normal combat. I think it's possible that it will be so good, that I'll want to have it on ALL the time. In JK1 the *only* reason why you wouldn't want to have JKI force speed on all the time was becuase there was some hazard in using it. However, in JKII there will be no hazard apparently, since you're moving at normal speed. I personally don't want to play the game in slow motion the whole time in order to be effective.

Now, some of you may be thinking: "If you don't like it so much, why don't you just not use it?" In JK1 I played through the Dark Side first, and I thought force choke was pretty cool. Soon afterwards I realized I could just simply hit the "Force Pull" key, and instantly take the weapon away from my adversary. However, Force choke had a shorter range, took longer to disable, and took more mana then Force pull did. They both had the same effect, however force pull was by far superior. When I did use force choke over force pull, I just wouldn't feel right about it, since I know I could just simply use Force pull and make the battle a whole lot easier. I ofcourse stuck with Force pull (which seemed to be the most effective force in the game), but I always wanted to have a use for Force Choke...

So, what I actually want is a reverse of what I described above; I want there to be a reason why I wouldn't want to have Force speed on 100% of the time. This could be achieved by making it use a whole lot of mana. Not allowing me to use any other force powers while force speed is in motion. Or simply put a timer on when you can use it agian.

My last concern is of Force Speed in Multiplayer. I'll be completely honest, I HATED Force speed in Jedi Knight 1 MP, for some of the same reasons why I have concerns about SP force speed in JO's SP. I don't want to run around at 100mph to be effective... but I will if it has the same lack of disadvantage as the original JKI's did. I really want to play a true saber fight, (with force) but a battle that seems very much like the star wars movies. However, if force speed is exactly like it was in the original JK, then that will be impossible. Most likely almost all of the kills will be done by someone dieing from destruction, while both the attacker and attackee are running at 100mph; just like in JKI.


If Force speed (in MP) was designed by my rules (just saying if , I'm not trying to say it SHOULD be), then I would put these limitations on it... Make Force speed like a horizontal force Jump. What I mean is; force speed would last about as long as Force jump takes from the beginning of the jump, up to the point where you reach absolute height. Also, I would have it use about 1/3 of the user's mana pool. This would reduce the ammount of "crazy" force speeding, by making the user want to reserve his or her mana pool. It also make the user want to only use force speed in dire need, when he wants to escape quickly. While force speed is in motion, Force pool does not recharge. While Force speed is in motion, you cannot do ANY kind of attack. If all those rules were followed, I believe it would create a much more movie like force speed, similar to The Phatom Menace force speed, which was a quick burst of speed, and at the same time, making it more balanced.


Well anyways, those are just MY concerns, and how I offer that they should be resolved. I do not say my opinion on how it should be done is the right one. And I do not pretend to have any inside knowledge, I haven't played the game, just like most of you haven't, so perhaps all of my fears are ungrouned, and perhaps when I say the game will not feel like Star Wars, that I may be wrong. But, it's just a game, but happens to be a game many are looking forwards to (myself included). I won't cry if it's not exactly how I want--I'll still buy it, play it, and enjoy it, but I'll probably think it was a shame, since it could've been better. But maybe not, we shall see.

Bio Warrior
02-22-2002, 08:38 PM
i found it actually quite easy to kill force speed users in MP without using a force power

Silent_Thunder
02-22-2002, 08:45 PM
Perhaps Bio. But the thing is, what was the disadvantage you had in using it? To kill most everyone who's using force speed, while not using it yourself is a great feat. You'd have to be a very good palyer to do so. However, you'd have to be even better player if you also had Force speed on at the same time, right?

My point being, there's no disadvantage to using it, therefore there's no reason not to use it.

Bio Warrior
02-22-2002, 09:01 PM
only reason why i used force speed was to get ontop of the ship on BGJ

Lord_FinnSon
02-22-2002, 09:22 PM
In the trailer, it looks as though Kyle is wielding a baseball bat as opposed to a lightsaber. I say this because when he strikes an enemy, they fly several feet backwards. Shouldn't it just slice them instead? Watch the trailer with this fact in mind.
Why do I have a feeling that LEC/Raven may have disabled dismemberment when they captured those videos? Almost every preview so far have confirmed that it will be part of the game(one even sayed that you could make a guy out of those limbs that you left behind you), so either A) they don't want us to see the effect yet(remember, none of the screenshots so far have shown cutted limbs) OR B) it will be similar to JK and dismemberment is only occasional. One thing is clear though: developers are going leave some serious surprises for us to find out, so let's be cool. :cool:

DeathBoLT
02-22-2002, 10:06 PM
Part of my concern is similar to yours... I'm worried that JO won't really feel like a Star wars game, but feel more like a "Quake 3 Mod".

This is also a fear of mine, but I think force powers and the lightsaber shall create different aspects and better balance the game. With the force powers + lightsaber, you were instantly deadly. Force speed and force jump gave battle a 3d element.

...now, there's trip mines, rocket launchers, flak cannons, and more then half of the weapons use METAL bullets!! And to top it all off, there's a Phaser like weapon (disrupter) which acts very similar to something Elite Force might have... (BTW, the bow caster in JK used bullets, but they weren't metal)...
I think the metal bullests are meant to balance the game; we're now looking at the saber becoming the most weapon in the game.. so powerful that they had to add to gun's functions to prevent the saber from becoming an factor that unbalances the game. All of these weapons may have been created to better appeal to Quakers, and/or prevent the saber from becoming unstoppable.





My last concern is of Force Speed in Multiplayer. I'll be completely honest, I HATED Force speed in Jedi Knight 1 MP, for some of the same reasons why I have concerns about SP force speed in JO's SP. I don't want to run around at 100mph to be effective... but I will if it has the same lack of disadvantage as the original JKI's did.

I really want to play a true saber fight, (with force) but a battle that seems very much like the star wars movies. However, if force speed is exactly like it was in the original JK, then that will be impossible.
There was nothing stopping you from having movie-like battles except for both parties willingness to have that battle. If you want a movie-like battle, do not use force speed and request that your opponent do the same.. if he refuses, he obviously does not want to role-play and play like luke skywalker. The option for you have this there was present in jk and it clearly will not only be there in jk2, but it'll have been improved upon. As long as that options there, why impose it on other players?

DeathBoLT
02-22-2002, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by indianajones9
What are your biggest concerns about the game?

my primary concern is how movement will be.. i'd really like to see that option for fast-paced gameplay to be there. the effect of accelerating when turning(happy raze? :p) that jk had gave jk players a great deal of more control in speed of movement, etc. than your typical DM.

Silent_Thunder
02-23-2002, 01:10 PM
"I think the metal bullests are meant to balance the game; we're now looking at the saber becoming the most weapon in the game.. so powerful that they had to add to gun's functions to prevent the saber from becoming an factor that unbalances the game. All of these weapons may have been created to better appeal to Quakers, and/or prevent the saber from becoming unstoppable. "--DeathBoLT

I honestly don't understand how metal bullets makes the Light Saber more balanced. Do you mean to say that, since the light saber cannot deflect the metal bullets that it will make gameplay more balanced? If so, I must say you're incorrect... The lightsaber CAN deflect the golan arms weapon--which fires metal bullets, by the way.

So far the only 2 Star Warsy weapons showen are the ST rifle, and the Bryar pistol. I'm happy with how they turned out, but the overwelming majority of the other weapons do not in belong JO (only in my opinion, ofcourse).

We have the Disrupter Rifle, which not only makes enemie's disentergrate, but ALSO makes them freeze when they get hit by it. It looks very, very similar to how the old Star Trek movies delt with the disentergration effect. What they did was; Film a person standing there, then add the red phaser effects, then do a cut to the same room, but with no one else there. The reason why the people who got hit by the phaser froze, and didn't move was becuase of limitions on tech.

However, Raven has adobted this look for the Disrupter Rifle, which appears to be exactly like an old Star Trek movie.

IMO, once hit by the Disrupter, the victim should fall over normally, while disentergating. That way, it will look alot more like Star Wars, and less like Star Trek.

We also have the Rockett Launcher, which we know little about, so I won't try to say it doesn't seem Star Warsy. But, however, I'd like to say I never thought the Rail Dets were very Star Warsy either....

We have the Golan Arms, Heavy Repeater, and the Bow Caster, all which fire bulllets. I honestly don't like those weapons too much (by the look of them) and I hate the fact that they fire metal bullets... If they'd fire plastic bullets, I'd be more happy :p. I think laser guns would've fit much better into the Star Wars universe.

So, plain and simply put: I think Raven is making the weapons out of their head the way they think a good balanced crew of weapons should be. However, one thing I think they're missing is the fact that this is Star Wars and not you're typical quake game...


"There was nothing stopping you from having movie-like battles except for both parties willingness to have that battle. If you want a movie-like battle, do not use force speed and request that your opponent do the same.. if he refuses, he obviously does not want to role-play and play like luke skywalker. The option for you have this there was present in jk and it clearly will not only be there in jk2, but it'll have been improved upon. As long as that options there, why impose it on other players?"--DeathBoLT

Well, I suppose what my reasoning is this; Since this game is supposed to be like Star Wars, I want to be able to join ANY multi player game server (mods not included ofcourse) and have it FEEL like Star Wars. I honestly think the way I described how (I think) Force Speed should be done would not only balance the game, but also make it more movie like.

I suppose you're an avid fan of Force Speed, DeathBoLT, so just out of curiousity, how would you feel if Force Speed was done the way I said in my early post?

Which was...

"If Force speed (in MP) was designed by my rules (just saying if , I'm not trying to say it SHOULD be), then I would put these limitations on it... Make Force speed like a horizontal force Jump. What I mean is; force speed would last about as long as Force jump takes from the beginning of the jump, up to the point where you reach absolute height. Also, I would have it use about 1/3 of the user's mana pool. This would reduce the ammount of "crazy" force speeding, by making the user want to reserve his or her mana pool. It also make the user want to only use force speed in dire need, when he wants to escape quickly. While force speed is in motion, Force pool does not recharge. While Force speed is in motion, you cannot do ANY kind of attack. If all those rules were followed, I believe it would create a much more movie like force speed, similar to The Phatom Menace force speed, which was a quick burst of speed, and at the same time, making it more balanced."

Anakin1607
02-23-2002, 01:33 PM
There were a few times in RotJ where Luke's saber knocked a guy backwards so I'm not conserned about that.

lonepadawan
02-23-2002, 02:41 PM
What? The bowcaster uses bullets? I thought it used those green thingies seen in the trailers and screenshot.

nykel007
02-23-2002, 03:00 PM
I hope too the Lsaber would be better than what is sceen in trailer. I WANT to see people fall in two pecies, man.

Naphtali
02-23-2002, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Jedi Legend
My biggest concern is how it will run on my system. I have a good processor and a decent 3d card but I only have 128 megabytes of ram. Another concern is the controls. I hope it isn't to difficult to control the saber and acrobatics.

Oh brother....128 is more than enough you should of been figured that out by comparing with other games and what not

MikeC
02-23-2002, 07:47 PM
Originally posted by lonepadawan
What? The bowcaster uses bullets? I thought it used those green thingies seen in the trailers and screenshot.

It's not exactly a bullet, but it is a projectile. You can find more information on it in the database at starwars.com

Silent_One
02-23-2002, 07:54 PM
I have 192 MEGS of ram. So there. :)

DeathBoLT
02-23-2002, 08:53 PM
"I think the metal bullests are meant to balance the game; we're now looking at the saber becoming the most weapon in the game.. so powerful that they had to add to gun's functions to prevent the saber from becoming an factor that unbalances the game. All of these weapons may have been created to better appeal to Quakers, and/or prevent the saber from becoming unstoppable. "--DeathBoLT

I honestly don't understand how metal bullets makes the Light Saber more balanced. Do you mean to say that, since the light saber cannot deflect the metal bullets that it will make gameplay more balanced? If so, I must say you're incorrect... The lightsaber CAN deflect the golan arms weapon--which fires metal bullets, by the way.


I left out how it will balance by accident. It may simply be neccessary to have a weapons that cannot be turned agaisnt their users via the saber blocking to prevent gun use in MP from suicidal. Especially in Jedi Master gameplay where your only option is tokill the only Jedi(to become the only Jedi) with guns. And btw where does it say that the flecettes can be deflected?

DeathBoLT
02-23-2002, 09:04 PM
We have the Golan Arms, Heavy Repeater, and the Bow Caster, all which fire bulllets. I honestly don't like those weapons too much (by the look of them) and I hate the fact that they fire metal bullets... If they'd fire plastic bullets, I'd be more happy . I think laser guns would've fit much better into the Star Wars universe.

So, plain and simply put: I think Raven is making the weapons out of their head the way they think a good balanced crew of weapons should be. However, one thing I think they're missing is the fact that this is Star Wars and not you're typical quake game...

It is neccessary to sacrafice realism and having the game stick the movie 100% for the sake of having decent gameplay. Meaning: you stick to Star wars as much as you can, but its okay to variate time to time to ensure balanced gameplay.

Since this game is supposed to be like Star Wars, I want to be able to join ANY multi player game server (mods not included ofcourse) and have it FEEL like Star Wars. I honestly think the way I described how (I think) Force Speed should be done would not only balance the game, but also make it more movie like.


I want to join ANY multi player game server(mods not included ofcourse) and have it FEEL like people are competting to be the best and not bother me with RPG stuff, etc. But that would be selfish so I'm content with option for me to play as I want, and others to play as they want, whether it be pretending to be luke sykwalker or playing to win.

I suppose you're an avid fan of Force Speed, DeathBoLT, so just out of curiousity, how would you feel if Force Speed was done the way I said in my early post?

I think it would kill the 3d feel JK had over Quake3. In JK FF you could attack from any angle, get to any place you wanted to goto in mere seconds. Instead of playing on various portions of the maps, you play on the whole map at the same time. I think it would also hurt the balance of the game, as someone in JK with the surge, guns, etc. could still be evaded and fought if you had force speed/jump and some force mana for grip, etc. If you lose a third of your mana for each force speed/force jump combo, you are only able to do it 3 times before being totally forceless for a moment, thus allowing them to easily catch up with you and finish you off. The alternative is trying to engage them with whatever you have and hoping you can make enough force attacks before they overwhelm you. Force speed and force jump combos were a form of playing NO other game has, and although I was primarily a NF saberist in JK, I really enjoyed playing FF time to time.

GAT
02-23-2002, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Silent_One
I have 192 MEGS of ram. So there. :)

I don't mean to brag or anything, but I have 256 Meg of DDR RAM. :) I think I'll be okay in that area, what concerns me the most (and don't get me wrong, it's not a very big concern at all, but merely a very very very very small concern) is that I ONLY have a 16MEG voodoo3 3000 .... yes, yes, I know it's old, and there TONS better video cards out there .... I just don't have the money.... But I want to get a GF4 Ti 4400.

GAT

Irimi-Ai
02-23-2002, 11:39 PM
I agree with Silent_Thunder about force speed on both counts. I think the SP will be really cool, so neat that I'll want to use it in every action sequence in the game. I also feel the exact same way about saber duals being more "movie like" and in other forums I've proposed ways to tweak JK1 force powers/settings to make it so. I'm not sure about all of Silent_Thunder's suggestions about force speed in MP, but I definitely agree with the basic idea. I could ramble on about this for a long time, but I'll spare you.

Irimi-Ai

Silent_Thunder
02-24-2002, 12:10 AM
__________________________________________________ _
"It is neccessary to sacrafice realism and having the game stick the movie 100% for the sake of having decent gameplay. Meaning: you stick to Star wars as much as you can, but its okay to variate time to time to ensure balanced gameplay. "
_____________________________________________

Both Dark Forces and Jedi Knight had pretty decent gameplay considering most weapons fit pretty well in with what we see in the movies. The Golan arms, for example, could fire shots similar to the secondary fire on the original repeater... It doesn't need to be metal projectiles, lasers would be just as good gameplay, but wtill retain a Star Wars-ish feel.
__________________________________________________
"I want to join ANY multi player game server(mods not included ofcourse) and have it FEEL like people are competting to be the best and not bother me with RPG stuff, etc. But that would be selfish so I'm content with option for me to play as I want, and others to play as they want, whether it be pretending to be luke sykwalker or playing to win. "
__________________________________________________

Perhaps you misunderstood me... I'm not saying I want to join any server, and have everyone pretend play as Luke or Darth Vader, or I'm going to have a temper tantrum. What I mean is, no matter WHAT we do it should still feel like Star Wars, since the game IS Star Wars. That means you can still compete, and play to win, while still feeling like Star Wars--or similar to star wars.

__________________________________________________ __
"I think it would kill the 3d feel JK had over Quake3. In JK FF you could attack from any angle, get to any place you wanted to goto in mere seconds. Instead of playing on various portions of the maps, you play on the whole map at the same time."
____________________________________________

This is where I just simply disagree--and probably with everyone else here too. I did not like the fact that JK had such an ease of movement. I think the slower you move around the map, the more strategic the game becomes...

_________________________________________________
"I think it would also hurt the balance of the game, as someone in JK with the surge, guns, etc. could still be evaded and fought if you had force speed/jump and some force mana for grip, etc."
__________________________________________________ __

I don't completely understand what you're saying there... You mean that since you can't kill someone with just force speed and grip that that's UNbalanced??

That's precisly what I don't like about force speed. If it had limitions on it, then people would want to use it alot less, and think of more strategies then just "force speed around everwhere and choke everyone". Also, guns are supposed to have some uses... You're not supposed to be able to attack someone with a surge and some good guns and expect to be able to fight with just 3 force powers... That's what I call unbalanced. Also, we don't even know if surges will be in the game or not...

__________________________________________________ __
"If you lose a third of your mana for each force speed/force jump combo, you are only able to do it 3 times before being totally forceless for a moment, thus allowing them to easily catch up with you and finish you off."
__________________________________________


That's actually the entire idea behind the way I thought force speed should be...;) If I'm getting creamed by someone alot better then me I shouldn't be able to just use force speed and run away untill I get enough health packs to recharge myself. Sure, you could use all your mana on force speed, but it probably wouldn't be worth it, but that's the whole point. You'll want to use force speed only when you really, really need it. For example; let's say you're in an enclosed area with just 2 doors oposite of each other. Your oponent steps through the door right in front of you and fires the secondary shot on the heavy repeater, which should take a few seconds to exlpode. The room is too small to evade the blast. And you're health is too low to take the hit. You turn around and use force speed to zoom out of the door way before the bomb detonates. So, it would be used like that... a quick escape when you really need it.

_______________________________________________
"The alternative is trying to engage them with whatever you have and hoping you can make enough force attacks before they overwhelm you. Force speed and force jump combos"
_________________________________________________


That's another point of my opinion on how force speed should be done. The alternative you mentioned is EXACTLY what I think should be done in a fight. You want to use whatever you have to try to kill them before they kill you. Instead of just using force speed and force choke. But what I don't understand is why you say "before they overwhelm you". They'll have the some abilities as you. Someone who varies there force powers should be able to kill someone who jsut uses speed and choke, I think.

______________________________________________
"I left out how it will balance by accident. It may simply be neccessary to have a weapons that cannot be turned agaisnt their users via the saber blocking to prevent gun use in MP from suicidal. Especially in Jedi Master gameplay where your only option is tokill the only Jedi(to become the only Jedi) with guns. And btw where does it say that the flecettes can be deflected?"
__________________________________________________ __


It doesn't actually say that the flecettes can be deflected, however, it can be plainly seen in the trailer. BTW, is the Golans and the fletchett the same thing? Since what I am refering to is the Golans...

Silent_Thunder
02-24-2002, 12:25 AM
"I agree with Silent_Thunder about force speed on both counts. I think the SP will be really cool, so neat that I'll want to use it in every action sequence in the game. I also feel the exact same way about saber duals being more "movie like" and in other forums I've proposed ways to tweak JK1 force powers/settings to make it so. I'm not sure about all of Silent_Thunder's suggestions about force speed in MP, but I definitely agree with the basic idea. I could ramble on about this for a long time, but I'll spare you."----
Irimi-Ai

Wow! I think you're the first person that actually agrees with me on Force Speed on both SP, and MP. :)

I ramble on alot about how I would prefer things to be done. So Please don't refrain yourself from rambling, I'd love to hear how you think Force Speed should be done. :D

Obi
02-24-2002, 12:43 AM
<font color=cbcbff> You aren't a Star Wars fan are you Deathbolt? Some people like to play the game to have fun, and not just to win. It's people who think they "own" everyone else that take the fun away from the game for everyone. I am not saying you are one of those people, but I know those people share your perspective of the game.

Yodimus Prime
02-24-2002, 12:44 AM
call me crazy, but i think the bowcaster looks great. And I'm not going to care what they call the gun projectiles since most of 'em will probably glow anyway, which is no different from blaster bolts.

My biggest concern is beyond any of this though...



...I have a Mac...:(

Brick
02-24-2002, 12:44 AM
I know that me saying this isn't going to help things, and I don't like to post unless I have something that I consider useful to say, but I have the urge to point out that you guys are WAY too tense about this. It's not easy to just relax when you have this much anticipation built up, so it would be pretty stupid of me to just give you all a collective "relax, man!" Even I have worries about the game.

The first fact is that we're all worried about something. The second is that there isn't a dang thing we can do about confirming or relieving our fears until we play the game and give it an honest shot. The third and most important fact is that it is just a game, meant purely for fun (and maybe even a bit of competition).

Lots of the worries you folks have exist simply because you haven't played the game. Lemme tell you, overworrying about things like this takes away its intended fun element. Continue if you must, but try to look on the optimistic side of things every now and then.

Yodimus Prime
02-24-2002, 12:54 AM
Yeah, like it MIGHT come out for the Mac. Right? RIGHT ?????

Broode
02-24-2002, 03:38 AM
I agree with every single word that Silent_Thunder has said. It looks like we have the same view of what JO should be.

DeathBoLT
02-24-2002, 03:45 AM
Obi:
You aren't a Star Wars fan are you Deathbolt? Some people like to play the game to have fun, and not just to win.

I'm actually a relatively big fan of star wars.. I own all the movies, read a few books, etc. BUT pretending that I was Jedi never struck me as fun... I prefer the challenge, the strategy, etc. of playing the game for the game, rather than what universe it made me feel in.

And where do you get the idea that I play the game strictly to win and not for fun? I'm not getting paid to play this game. I'm not playing it because I have some sort of physcological disorder.. I play to win because competiting in it is where the fun is at... at least where the fun is at IMO.

Silent_Thunder:
What I mean is, no matter WHAT we do it should still feel like Star Wars, since the game IS Star Wars. That means you can still compete, and play to win, while still feeling like Star Wars--or similar to star wars.


I hope this game is at much star wars as is possible except where it disrupts gameplay. Standing stilll trying to out-swing someone in my experience, is flat out boring. The best style of playing melee combat is basing it on movement, and allowing that player a great amount of maneveurability when engaging in melee combat. I think trying to focus saber play on arm movement would be a mistake.


That's precisly what I don't like about force speed. If it had limitions on it, then people would want to use it alot less, and think of more strategies then just "force speed around everwhere and choke everyone".
JK FF is alot more complex than that. The strategies using force speed/jump, etc. are as complex as fencing, if not more.

I mean no offense, but you clearly don't understand the value and complexity of force speed and speed/jump combos. You probably haven't even seen someone use them in the manner I'm trying to describe, so I'm not going to try and bother discussing the rest of the points you've mentioned, as they are the same stuff people have been talking about since JKii.net was launched. I'm getting frustrated going over the same ground with every new group of people. Same complaints. Just new people.

TheAlbaniac
02-24-2002, 05:47 AM
To get back to the realistic physics:

Originally posted by indianajones9
No, they were knocked off their feet by the saber.

By advanced physics i mean when I throw an object will it react realistically. If I use the force and throw a stormtrooper or a crate, when it hits the ground will it roll or slide or bounce realistically or will it just land. Hitman had a good physics system. I hate when i kill an enemy and most of their body is hanging off a cliff. In the early preview i read it mentioned force throwing something down a lfight of steps and it bounced and rolled realistically. Anyone?

I remember seeing a screenshot where a stormtrooper's body was half on a higher platform and half in the air. Very stiff.
Now maybe it was an early screenshot, but I'm afraid JO won't have realistic physics like that. No quake engine powered game has realistic physics AFAIK... :(

Irimi-Ai
02-24-2002, 10:49 AM
Silent_Thuder:

I'm just glad to know that there are other people out there (it sounds like Broode and Obi maybe on the same page, too) who like to play the game like I do, which is to make them as cinematic as possible and to make them as strategic as possible. I think one of the best ways to accomplish these goals is to slow things down (e.g. force speed) and to increase mana-cost and/or decrease the effect of force powers. To be honest, I haven't given as much thought to force speed as other force powers. Off the top of my head, I'd be inclined to agree with you about increasing the mana-cost and limiting the effect/duration of the power. Perhaps also making it most effective (i.e. fastest speed) in straight forward movement, somewhat less effective in straight backward movement, and much less effective in lateral movement. This way, using force speed as the quickest escape would also turn your back on whatever you were running from (like in episode one). This would add more strategy to it. Notice, though, that trying to cover distances quickly and far jumps combined with force jump would still be possible. Going straight back wouldn't be as fast, but you'd be able to face the danger you were fleeing. You'd have to decide which is the better option. The lateral movement would be really hampered, as I said mostly to limit force speed circle-strafing and also to emphasize the escape as well as the "giant jump" aspects of force speed. I also really like the AOTL mod for MOTS, where saber blocking had the option of being manually controlled (i.e., nothing is blocked unless you hit the "block" button) and that saber blocking costed mana. In all the books, Jedi/Sith have to use the force to block blasters and such, by anticipating where they will be since they travel so fast. It also added a great strategic element. Do I stand and block all these shots and maybe run out of mana? Do I block and use force pull, which will drain my mana even faster? Do I not block and just start attacking? It also made saber duals much more skill and strategy based, since blocking was not automatic.
In another forum, I wrote about how I thought (I know this is unpopular and I'll get flamed...oh well) that force destruction and force protection should have been replaced by other force powers in the original JK. Force destruction is just a big gun, and I haven't played the Zone in years because of the constant tactic of: force speed to closest force surge, fire force destruction as many times as possible before it wears out, run/hide/camp until the force surge respawns, repeat. This takes very little skill or strategy and is mostly done by people who just want the highest frag tally to "prove" how good they are and how much everyone else "sucks". That's pretty boring, and in my opinion just reflects a need to be better than everyone else, which can be insightful into a person's personality. As Obi alluded to and is probably evident, I have no interest in playing with people who just try to rack up frags and "own" everyone with his or her "l337" skillz.
Anyway, I made two suggestions to replace force destruction and force protection. What are they? Well, I posted these ideas 3 months ago, and guess what? The same ideas I had were just recently revealed to be in JK2 in the UK PC Gamer magazine! I had suggested force Jedi calm, which would gradually heal and decrease the mana-cost/increase the effectiveness of force powers for a certain duration but had to be used while NOT moving (I wanted it to be like Qui-Gon in episode 1 between the energy gates with Darth Maul). Well, not all of this is going to be in JK2, but the first level of force heal in JK2 only works when standing still and gradually heals. Pretty similar. I also suggested force Sith rage, which would increase attack speed, attack damage, and force powers for a limited time, but afterwards would leave the user drained of mana for a significant amount of time and would also physically hurt the user. The UK PC Gamer magazine said that JK2 will actually have force rage (even the same name I used) and that it will reduce the user's health, and essentially do what I said in my suggestion. I'll stop rambling now.

Irimi-Ai

Irimi-Ai
02-24-2002, 10:50 AM
DeathBoLT (I know these weren't directed at me, however I think Silent_Thunder and I are on a similar page, so I will give my take):

"There was nothing stopping you from having movie-like battles except for both parties willingness to have that battle. If you want a movie-like battle, do not use force speed and request that your opponent do the same.. if he refuses, he obviously does not want to role- play and play like luke skywalker. The option for you have this there was present in jk and it clearly will not only be there in jk2, but it'll have been improved upon. As long as that options there, why impose it on other players?"

You're right. I'm not trying to impose my ideas on other players. That's why I don't play the Zone anymore. After searching for a long time, I concluded that no one on the Zone is interested in playing how I wanted to play. Which, by the way, is not excluding force speed or any other force power, and not it's not role-playing either. When you say, "playing as Luke Skywalker," it comes across as somewhat derogatory. I'm not sure if you meant it that way, though that's how it sounds to me. I see it as going for a cinematic and more strategic feel. So, I found a few people with similar interests through forums and we play together, and I beta-tested and contributed a couple of ideas to the SBX mod for JK. I don't bother anyone with my preference. I just wish that the Zone or ad-hoc MP games weren't always dominated by the "get as many frags as possible" preference, because that preference of playing *is* imposed on anyone who doesn't share that share that preference by shear numbers(except maybe the AOTL rooms).


"I mean no offense, but you clearly don't understand the value and complexity of force speed and speed/jump combos. You probably haven't even seen someone use them in the manner I'm trying to describe, so I'm not going to try and bother discussing the rest of the points you've mentioned, as they are the same stuff people have been talking about since JKii.net was launched. I'm getting frustrated going over the same ground with every new group of people. Same complaints. Just new people."

Well, I think I understand the complexity of performing those manuevers, and the value of them, especially in the dominant preference/method of playing on the Zone. It probably is frustrating to be part of the dominant preference and to have to hear people talk about things that don't fit into the dominant preference. I don't mean that sarcastically or facetiously. I don't feel that I (or Silent_Thunder, I think) are trying to convert anyone. We're just talking about things that people who aren't in the dominant preference would like to see in the game. Then we're often told by those who are in the dominant group that our ideas are stupid; that we lack hand-eye coordination; that we aren't good at the dominant method of playing so that's why we play a different way; and all of these judgements are coming from within the dominant preference viewpoint. Essentially, we get criticisized because our viewpoint is not the dominant viewpoint, and wherever they don't match up, a criticism lies in wait. I know my playing preference is different, however it's not because I lack coordination or that I "suck" at the dominant gaming preference in JK. I think Silent_Thunder and I just want the game to more amenable to *both* playing preferences out of the box, rather than for one preference have to make all their own mods and have to go through a lot of work just to be able to play within that preference.

Irimi-Ai

DeathBoLT
02-24-2002, 05:16 PM
Irimi-Ai, I don't think people who don't use successful tactics, strategies are stupid. I honestly think theres nothing wrong with whatever way you play the game(unless of course your haxoring a no hacks game or something to that effect.)

What grates on me is when people incorrectly say or imply that successful tactics and strategies aren't complex or as difficult to pull off as cinmematic battles(concentrating on fencing with someone, etc.).

Eternity
02-24-2002, 05:25 PM
If they'd fire plastic bullets, I'd be more happy .

Try to pop Darth Vader or some Jedi with a plastic bullet between the eyes, and be prepared for some whithering scorn from the enemy, mate. :rolleyes:

Tre Lightshadow
02-24-2002, 09:16 PM
I stopped reading, this thread was long, but flecthettes wouldn't be deflected, they would just melt and disintgrate in the lightsaber.:jawa

DeathBoLT
02-24-2002, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Tre Lightshadow
I stopped reading, this thread was long, but flecthettes wouldn't be deflected, they would just melt and disintgrate in the lightsaber.:jawa

that what strikes me as the most likely to happen in the game. I don't remember seeing any trailer, etc. deflecting flechettes..

Obi
02-24-2002, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by DeathBoLT

What grates on me is when people incorrectly say or imply that successful tactics and strategies aren't complex or as difficult to pull off as cinmematic battles(concentrating on fencing with someone, etc.).

<font color=cbcbff>Actually, I think that when people say that, they are often correct. Take mouse jerking for example. You probably view this as an 'effective' tactic. In reality, it takes no skill to warp yourself around, giving you an advantage over everyone else. It's only fun for the jerker, and for everyone else the fun is taken right out of the game. Many of us choose not to play like that not because we aren't "1337" enough, but because it's just cheap. No matter how effective something is, I don't think it's worth taking all the fun out of the game for.

DeathBoLT
02-24-2002, 11:46 PM
Take mouse jerking for example. You probably view this as an 'effective' tactic. In reality, it takes no skill to warp yourself around, giving you an advantage over everyone else.
Actually I think its a stupid tactic, as I've always found people that jerk run into my saber with little effort on my part, more often than not. Its only been mentioned to give an example of certain properties of JK in play. I personally think any tactic that blindly counts on your opponent to happen to walk by your saber with little control on your part is a stupid one. Whenever I would win in nf sabers, it was done by gracefully and intelligently out-maneveuring people.. something that cannot be done when you're mouse jerking.

Many of us choose not to play like that not because we aren't "1337" enough, but because it's just cheap.
Its not cheap - however it is very stupid.. a tactic that any truly good player will tell you is suicidal. When someone starts to mouse jerk, they've virtually just handed me a frag. Its only cheap for those who can't see the flaws in it and fall prey to it.

Zodiac
02-25-2002, 06:39 AM
Newbie warpers dunno where they're going, hitting walls, running into sabers, etc. They are everything you just said Deathbolt: people jerking into ur saber without effort of ur part. :)

But when u master the warping and the tight turns, then u'll be able to see where ur opponent is, whats he's doing, where he's going, etc. You can then use "warp" as an effective defensive! technique. But Deathbolt, you're correct, going offense while warping is real hard to do and getting a hit while attacking with warp is hard. But everybody knows that defense is THE tactic for succesful saberfights, so that's why a lot of people try to warp. Everybody can warp, but only few know how to do it correctly.

But the REAL good saberists know how to combine the non-warping style and the warping style, giving them the edge of confusing their opponent with good defense AND having strong offensive capabilities. :)

And the trule best saberists combine those styles with an even more advanced tactic which contains walk-run-bursts while fighting. Only 3 people I know of have mastered that, turning auto-run off, and using different walkig and running moves to confuse ur opponent even more. Vanion_VDS is one of em, you can find his config at the JCI-zone.

sooooo... my point is that warping isnt cheap, everybody can do it, but only good saberists know how to use it. And only the best know how to combine several styles and tactics to become a complete nf bgj saberist. :D

Broode
02-25-2002, 07:46 AM
Forget JK for a moment. Take a big, deep breath, and think of something completely different.

Relaxed? Good.

Now to start, I'm not going to say anything about warping and JK fighting skills. Close your eyes, and envisage a lightsaber system that doesn't rely on the speed of the user. Where using force speed will only get you impaled on someones saber, and running around like a maniac only makes you easier to kill. A system thats slow, cinematic, yet fast paced and difficult to master. Imagine that the "successful tactics and strategies" are what you would expect to see in a Star Wars movie, and not something completely arbritary (like mouse warping skills or running at 1000km/h).

Now open your eyes. You have just taken a journey into the saber fighting system I like to call "perfection".

Obi
02-25-2002, 08:29 AM
<font color=cbcbff> It was just an example, Deathbolt. I was trying to explain my reasoning, which applies to any tactic like that. Maybe you agree with me.

Irimi-Ai
02-25-2002, 08:49 AM
"Irimi-Ai, I don't think people who don't use successful tactics, strategies are stupid. I honestly think theres nothing wrong with whatever way you play the game (unless of course your haxoring a no hacks game or something to that effect.)"

I don't think those who use successful tactics are stupid, either. The point is, however, that it appears that "successful tactics" to you are characterized as tactics that lead to maximizing frags and minimizing the number of one's own death. This is reflected when you said: "Its not cheap - however it is very stupid.. a tactic that any truly good player will tell you is suicidal. When someone starts to mouse jerk, they've virtually just handed me a frag." If this is your definition of successful tactics, then we are talking about totally different things. What I think are successful tactics would probably seem ridiculous to you, mostly because they are not defined by "winning" or fragging, nor even my player's survival. Please don't respond by asking if purposefully dying is a successful tactic to me (although it occasionally is a good strategy). I'm merely saying that my definition of successful tactics/strategies has nothing to do with "winning", fragging, preventing death, etc. This is what I meant when I said that those within the dominant gaming preference interpret everything from within that preference, and very often don't understand that they are applying criteria that are not applicable to a different preference, and then conclude that another preference is stupid based on these inapplicable criteria. They very often don't even realize that they're doing it, either.


"What grates on me is when people incorrectly say or imply that successful tactics and strategies aren't complex or as difficult to pull off as cinmematic battles(concentrating on fencing with someone, etc.)."

I completely agree with you here. I'm not trying to imply that the succesful tactics of either preference are more or less complex, difficult, etc. than the other. Like I said, the criteria aren't the same and are not applicable to gaming styles that have different defintions of success. Just as it grates on you that "people incorrectly say or imply that successful tactics and strategies aren't complex or as difficult to pull off as cinematic battles", it grates on those of us with a different gaming preference to be told that *our* "tactics and strategies aren't complex or as difficult to pull off as" frag-fest battles (I don't mean that derogatory, I just couldn't think of a better term). I don't think one is harder, more complex, or better than another. I think they are different and call for different skills based on the definition of success for each perspective. What really grates on me is when people make negative judgements about a gaming preference based on criteria that are not applicable to that gaming preference and aren't even aware of it. It sounds like the same thing grates on both of us. I'm not saying that you, DeathBoLT, do this, so please don't take it personally (unless, of course, you in fact do that. Then I guess taking it personally would make sense). I'm just trying to increase some awareness and promote understanding about a non-dominant gaming preference with JK gamers in general.

Irimi-Ai

Irimi-Ai
02-25-2002, 08:51 AM
Broode:

I'd love to see a system like that. I'm on the same page with you there, and I think that Obi and Silent_Thunder would be, too.

Irimi-Ai

toms
02-25-2002, 10:43 AM
hmm... i agree a bit about the saber. the way it sends people flying in the movies does look a bit silly... but i guess they aren't gonna let you slice people into little bits every time you hit them... so it is that or nothing....

what worries me more is that they might adopt the same process in Episode 2 (to keep a pg cert)... they could get away with it in ROTJ as it didn't happen very often... but in big scale saber battles it is gonna look silly if they don't get sliced. oh well...

i think they are going for a more "dynamic" force meter... eg: most powers will use a lot of force, but it will recharge quickly... that way they "spread out" the usage, so after each speed usage you have to stay at normal speed for a short while, rather than just pressing speed again.
seems sensible to me... makes you think a bit about when you use it.

SpliffCartel
02-25-2002, 11:04 AM
Personally, I think the plastic in the Stormtrooper uniform reacts badly with the sabre, releasing a pocket of gas which propells them away! :)

Lord_FinnSon
02-25-2002, 12:46 PM
they could get away with it in ROTJ as it didn't happen very often... but in big scale saber battles it is gonna look silly if they don't get sliced.
In the RotJ movie camera was positioned so that we couldn't have even saw how those Jabba's guards were cut open by Luke and only few of them were shown from frontside, but saber itself blocked the view, so that we didn't see their intestines coming out(there is interesting cutting sound though, when Luke slices open gamorrean guard's stomach in the middle of battle). I think this was the best way to do it in those days when they didn't have advanced technology to show actual dismemberment(except one guy losing his hand), but who knows how graphically intense Lucas can be during large battle scenes in AOTC(still without going too much into detail). He might even want to enhance older battle scenes later when overseeing the work on upcoming DVD edition of original trilogy. ;)

What comes to JK2 though, I would also like to see opponents being actually sliced in parts(perhaps head, definitely arms and hands, probably even torso, but I'm not so sure about legs), but I still stay on my earlier statement that Raven/LEC probably disabled the feature completely when they captured both screenshots(except those few exclusive shots for PC Gamer mentioned earlier) and videos just to keep its effects "surprise".

Wacky_Baccy
02-25-2002, 08:55 PM
Originally posted by SpliffCartel
Personally, I think the plastic in the Stormtrooper uniform reacts badly with the sabre, releasing a pocket of gas which propells them away! :)

LOL!


Great screen name, BTW :D

And welcome to the forums - make yourself at home, and enjoy your stay :)