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View Full Version : The right way to do a saber battle?


GlobuleSO
02-24-2002, 12:23 AM
Hey guys. How's it goin'?

I was just thinking about Lightsaber battles, and how they will be handled in JO.

I don't think it's good that the different attacks and combos you can do with the saber are movement-based like JK. I thought it was very cheesy in JK, because battles usually were just running up to an opponent, taking a swing, then backing off to do another running attack (force-speeding away, or jumping, then the same thing again).

It would be cool if it were more like a fighting game, where there are simply different keys for the different attacks. That way, the battles would be much more similar to the movie ones, where they aren't running around slashing, but you see more of a push-pull tug of war.

I've also thought it would be neat to have an additional mode where, when two players came into contact, both with sabers selected, the camera would switch to a side view (like a fighting game on a console), and then the two players would duke it out. You wouldn't be able to move very fast, except if you hit the "run" key that would let you run away from the fight. But while you were in the fight, there would be keys for low, mid, high attacks, and likewise for blocks. Double taps + attack keys would give different moves, and say, double taps + block keys might parry and give you a short chance to counter attack. I don't think the camera would have to go to the side, but it would be neat. You could just have the camera stay in 3rd person, but still have the players in "duel mode" where strafing just makes you side step slowly around your enemy, and pressing run forward/backward just makes you advance or retreat as you see in the movies. Then, like I said, you could hit the run button (or some other specific key) to "break" off the attack and run away, if you get low on health or want to go to higher ground or something.

It would be neat to see a mod like this. I would love to try it myself if I had ANY programming know-how whatsoever. :p I just would like to avoid the run-&-gun sabering style that was so predominant in JK. It's not that the gameplay in that style was so bad; but it certainly is nothing like the lightsaber battles we all know and love.

JR2000Z
02-24-2002, 12:29 AM
Have you played Star Wars : Masters of Terras Kässi?

Thats what makes it the best fighting/lightsaber game out there.

MikeC
02-24-2002, 01:23 AM
Not everybody likes the side view fighting games. After all, this is an FPS.

GlobuleSO
02-24-2002, 03:51 AM
That's why I also gave some ideas about keeping it in the third person view. :rolleyes:

Fardreamer
02-24-2002, 04:06 AM
I completely agree with everything you said, except the multiple attack buttons... that wouldn't work in a mouse-controlled FPS (although I admit I considered it once myself). Double click, hold down and tap should be used to generate different attacks, with right click used to block. I'm actually working on a mod like this for JK, and if JO proves modable I'll definately make a similar mod for it as well... you should read the other thread here titled "Lightsaber swings parries etc." or something like that, all the issues you mentioned are being dicussed there.

T-Dogg
02-24-2002, 05:24 AM
Masters of Teräs Käsi... In my opinion a very cheesy title. Why? Sure, Teräs Käsi sounds exotic and very "Jedi", but what does it mean? Exactly this: Steel Hand. Teräs Käsi is Finnish and means Steel Hand.

"We'll call the game something like Masters of Kung Fu but we'll have to come up with an exotic name for the technique."

"How about something in a language that very very very few people understand? Like Finnish?"

"Hey! Great idea! Nobody understands Finnish! Quick! Someone find a dictionary!"

I agree that saberbattles (specially in MP) were of the run 'n slash -kind in the original JK. But with mods like SPORK and SBX you can have really cool battles, and the fighting system remained the same as in the original game. (Well, cool battles are possible only if you don't play with idiots who still just run around.) From what I've seen in the videos, the battles look really good the way they are. The kind of battles you'd like just don't go hand in hand with a first person shooter game. That's what fighting games are for.

JediDante
02-24-2002, 07:12 AM
Yeah see I really hated playing MP games of JK with people that just run around and press alt fire! Which in that case one of my friends did all the time, really gets me mad! the true way of a saber battle is not running around very fast, Back then it was 56ks so moving very fast with a saber sucked because of lag, but when you stayed with your foe and did not run all around like a loser with his head cut off! It can make some of the best saber battles!

simon says
02-24-2002, 08:05 AM
It wasn't so much that the ppl were idiots and running around cause they wanted to annoy you, but it's that running around with alt. fire was one of the only strategies in JK. We didn't have many options to use. With JO it's looking like we'll see much less of the run-n-slash tactics. And Globule, i like your ideas, but i think with 32 ppl in a game it won't work well: there's always the guys who come up and stab you in the back when you're in a duel :rolleyes: . It'd be a great mod though

CaptainRAVE
02-24-2002, 08:16 AM
Mutliplayer lightsaber duels will be so much fun as there are so many moves and different strategies available.....it'll be alot more fun than JK was with its very limited lightsaber, and this time the lightsaber is actually active in the environment, so you'll have to be careful you dont come into contact with it :D

GlobuleSO
02-24-2002, 01:18 PM
Hmm, yeah, it is true that this wouldn't work very well in a large game (20+) unless...

a. the game was in the "duel mode" where two guys fight and the other players spectate.

b. the mod would have an "invisible bubble" that would protect two duelers from other players. Think of it as a "force bubble" that the two characters project almost unconciously as they battle.

FarDreamer, how is your JK mod going? We should talk and share ideas. Two heads are always better than one!

CaptainRAVE
02-24-2002, 01:23 PM
I like option A.......it would be so cool to actually spectate, maybe practice a little while you wait, and then get called up...it would great :D

Fardreamer
02-24-2002, 01:26 PM
I'm currently researching all the common lightsaber stances and attacks in order to work out natural animation transitions (transition stances). There's still a lot of work ahead, and I doubt I'll finish it prior to the release of JO, at which point I'll either a) feel there's no point in such a mod (if JO's sytem is so good) or b) want to make the mod for JO. So you could say my current work is just a sort of proof-of-concept mod.

GlobuleSO
02-24-2002, 01:33 PM
What kind of things do you plan for the mod, Fardreamer? Is it similar to my idea?

Agen
02-24-2002, 01:35 PM
Raven's system seems great this now for saber battles... it locks on so you can't lose sight with saber locking added and the guns is jsut the same as jk which menas it's great so i see no need for the 2d system that you mentioned.

Ratah Kenoo
02-24-2002, 01:50 PM
I think it would be very cool to have some exp points to spend on new attacks.Like in Jedi Power Battles!What do you think?

Fardreamer
02-24-2002, 02:05 PM
Disturbingly similar. :) But I'll elaborate (I marked with a * things I've already completed):

Movement
Completely changes the way movement is done in JK. If you've ever played Prince of Persia you'll know what I mean: running at realistic paces, leaps, reaching jumps, ledge grabbings*; Max-Payne style dives and dodge rolls*. Ducks and hops to dodge saber swings. Being knocked flat on your back when Force Pushed, kicked, etc.

Lightsaber usage
Cannot run while attacking*: attacking while running slows down player tremendously, to a pace that will allow him to realisticly "stay balanced". Ability to "target-lock" like in Rune*: always face your enemy, if you flip over his head you'll land facing his back. When in target lock mode, movement in close proximity to the target is a "crab-walk", with one foot always ahead of the other.

Lightsaber system
Left-click sequences are used to initiate different attacks (double click for twirl, tap for overhead strike, press for side swing. etc.); used in conjunction with movement keys to generate variations on these moves (but not different moves); cannot hold down button to continue attacking, every swing requires a new tap sequence. Right click is used to block. In other words, typical duels will involve waiting for an attack by the opponent, parrying, and then following with an attack of your own. Just like Prince of Persia.

Animations
A system of transitions will be used to string together attacks and parries into seamless combos, so a swing to the left after a low block will be quite different from a swing to the left after a back block. Blocking animation depends on the attack your opponent is using against you: hit to the back will generate a back block, for instance.

The Force
I'm also changing the Force power system to a method that uses one Force button, which modifies every basic move while it is held down: Force + jump force jumps, Force while running is a burst of speed, Force + activate is Force Push, etc. Makes more sense as far as real Jedi go (they "extend" their abilities with the Force) and is easier than the "hunt-down-the-hotkey" style which will obviously be the system used in JO as well (according to FAQs and interviews).

CaptainRAVE
02-24-2002, 03:29 PM
^Sounds interesting..is that a mod your making or have I just totally missed the point??

Fardreamer
02-24-2002, 03:32 PM
Yes, it's a mod for MotS, but it's more of a "test" mod for future JO contributions.

CaptainRAVE
02-24-2002, 03:39 PM
It sounds quite ambitious :D

Fardreamer
02-24-2002, 03:44 PM
Nah, I've done bigger things in my time :D

DigitalVapor
02-24-2002, 03:44 PM
Fardreamer, How far are you on that mod? I would just LOVE to have it! That sounds absolutely incredible.

Fardreamer
02-24-2002, 03:48 PM
Not very far. Don't expect it to be released. I just want to see whether this system I have in mind will actually be an improvement or only a cumbersome addition. If it turns out fun, and JO proves editable, I'll make it for JO.

CaptainRAVE
02-24-2002, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Fardreamer
Nah, I've done bigger things in my time :D

What other projects have you undertaken??

Lord_FinnSon
02-24-2002, 03:51 PM
I'm currently researching all the common lightsaber stances and attacks in order to work out natural animation transitions (transition stances).
Fardreamer, you might wanna visit this site (http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm), if you haven't already done so; I found it very informative. What comes to the way Raven is doing saber movements now, I personally have nothing againts them, because I have to see first how much they have enhanced them.

Fardreamer
02-24-2002, 03:56 PM
I've been there, thanks :)

I've previosly worked on Art of the Lightsaber, TPMTC, The Face of Death, and did additional work on several JK/MotS projects. Most were never released, BECAUSE they were over ambitious. I did get AotL out the door, though.

CaptainRAVE
02-24-2002, 04:00 PM
Well I think the above project sounds quite over ambitious....Good Luck....when can we expect to see it finished and released??

Fardreamer
02-24-2002, 04:08 PM
You're not reading my posts, are you, Rave :) ... I said several times that it's a test mod, a "proof-of-concept". Probably won't be released.

ScummyRAT
02-24-2002, 07:28 PM
I wish there was a function similar to Zelda: Ocarina of Time, in which your movement was centered around the selected target. I think it was a good way to keep an eye on what your enemy is up to.

Dentalplan
02-24-2002, 08:11 PM
Lord_FinnSon, that site you gave was just plain funny. Well, maybe I don't take these things as seriously as everyone else, but... nevermind :D

Lord_FinnSon
02-24-2002, 10:47 PM
Lord_FinnSon, that site you gave was just plain funny. Well, maybe I don't take these things as seriously as everyone else, but... nevermind :D
I thought that guy(Bob Brown) analyzed fighting stances, en-guarde positions, basic strikes etc. very well, but don't take his theories about lightsaber too literally. He made some good points though...

DeathBoLT
02-25-2002, 01:02 AM
I think the best way to go with online melee games is to base it on movement.. none of this arcade-style fighting :P

The Truthful Liar
02-25-2002, 03:46 AM
Well, as long as JK2 takes some original thoughts and gameplay from JK1's sabering YET upholding a 'new' and 'unique' style of saber battling (sp?), I'm all for it!! :D

Cheers ;)