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SirKai
03-15-2002, 08:17 AM
Well, I tried making some Jedi Masters with the intent of using them to turn enemy troops and buildings.

Problem 1: Whenever troops got near my base, they got blasted away by my towers and special units before they could be turned.

Problem 2: Whenever I sent my masters to the enemy base, they got surrounded and assaulted like mad, causing me to retreat before I could turn a building (I was aiming for turrets).

Problem 3: If I marched the masters in with the rest of my battle group, the masters were basically useless because my battle group can destroy buildings and units so much faster than the masters can turn them.

Problem 4: Unless I missed something, masters don't seem to have much range when turning units/buildings.

I upgraded them up to a point but they just don't seem that entirely useful. Since people have mentioned using them a lot, I think I am missing something.

What techniques do people use to make Jedi useful?

SirKai

Havoc Stryphe
03-15-2002, 08:59 AM
You had the right idea in "Problem #3". Use the Jedi Masters in conjunction with at least a small mixed force (anti air troops, strike mechs etc) but have those units set on guard mode, guarding your Jedi Masters. That way they do not automatically attack most buildings (exception being turrets) and only units close at hand. This will help reduce the number of viable turning targets from being decimated by your troops before the masters can turn them.

You can also place your units on "no Stance" and place them in front of your Masters forming a human shield, so that they don't kill any targets, of course you will lose a few units needlessly, but your masters will get the job done then. :D (PS if you use this method I suggest you use just plain troopers as your shield as to minimize resource loss)

Also, to increase turning speed, have all your masters target one unit, then after it is turned move on to another target. If you try to have each master target a different unit, then you waste valuable time and your troops will kill the intended targets first, or your masters will be killed as you wait for the action to be completed.

Chessack
03-16-2002, 04:30 PM
Like anything else, the key to turning is cumulative damage. Killing off units works the same way. If you have 10 troopers and they each target a different attacking enemy unit, you will lose a lot of forces. But if you have all 10 of your guys attack one of the enemy, it goes down instantly. Now it's 10-on-9. Do it again, 1-0-on-8. And so on. At the end, you will have 10 wounded units, to 0 units left of the other guy. Then you just bring in a medic or a worker and repair your units. Jedi work the same way. You have them all focus on one unit. Then all on another unit. And so on, until you've turned a bunch of them.

Lather. Rinse. Repeat.

SirKai
03-18-2002, 01:17 PM
Well, I tried the Jedi thing again. I made 6 nicely upgraded Masters and attempted to use them. Whenever I tried to turn units that were coming at my base, the turrets and guards toasted them first. So I go out with this group of Jedi and a small band of defenders. Well, I encounter a large band of enemy and they start tearing apart my forces. The Jedi, even with 6 of them, can't turn the enemy faster enough for my taste. Not only that but I have to micro-manage those Jedi. Then there's the cost associated with building and upgrading them. My conclusion is that Jedi aren't worth the cost and trouble. I'd rather sink those resources into the cannons, special units, and mechs I use to walk all over the enemy. And that computer must have a cheat function on because I've never seen it make so many bounty hunters except the one game I decide to make 6 Masters. They never killed my masters but they kept my medic bots busy.

Chessack
03-18-2002, 01:51 PM
Since original AOE, priests, monks, and now Jedi, do not turn large forces fast enough to make it practical to use them solo (or nearly solo) against those forces. You're right. It takes too long. It has to, or otherwise Jedi would be utterly invincible. (As it is, their combat ability and mind trick makes them way more powerful than priests or monks were in the old AoE/AoK games.) Jedi are better used for surgical strikes or to turn important units. For example, turn the expensive units (AT-ATs), forcing him to basically destroy his own expensive mech, and take damage from it, and then build another one (which you turn again). Priests used to do this to me all the time in AoE, until I finally learned to stop building elephants -- they'd just get turned against me, most of the time. Turning a big, powerful unit that's standing in the middle of an attack force is great -- it causes the whole force to turn around and start fighting that unit, while your other forces can shoot them in the back, etc. But don't expect 6 Jedi to be able to turn an entire army. The game's just not set up to allow that (thank goodness -- Jedi are a pain in the neck enough to fight against, as it is!).

Artorius
03-18-2002, 02:30 PM
I take the Jedi masters behind the lines in air transports. I usually send 4 masters and one medic. I send fighters along to escort them. When I get back there I send them in a mass group over to turn a turret if one is available and hide inside it. If not I punt and just start turning whatever I can find. You need to have them all turn as a group and just keep using that group but get that upgrade that lets them all try to turn and only drains the power from one. The one that gets drained can go over and attack a house or something. When they're all drained I hop back in the transport and wait.

As far as turning attacking units, I click on one of the units in the back rank to turn. Whenever I do that it seems to get the unit. Maybe it would help to station your jedi a bit forward of your fortress.

In addition to their turning ability they make an excellent melee unit. Except for bounty hunters, the jedi masters just rip up most units. They can take out the AT-ATs in a fair fight. They're too expensive to just use for that though.

Chessack
03-19-2002, 10:59 AM
I like to position them behind my gates in "defensive" mode. If anything gets through my outer defenses, the Jedi usually tear them to bits.

Gaming Nut
03-19-2002, 08:22 PM
Thier not really good on the computer and their utter crap on people if they have a brain will have 4 hunter around to make quick work of their one use hit and run. Even in massive numbers thye stink. Just played a trooper blood guy liked jedi masters it cost him dearly. In a fight of 20 master on about 40 reapter troopers he lost all of his master to about 20 of my troopers. Melee units have and always will suck if faced with ranged oppenets so that part about their usfulness is crap. As with a number advanatge (easily achived) they die and at a massive loss to you. Cheaper without the lightsaber would make them more usful as all thier built for is turing units not fighting.

Volcano Falcon
04-11-2002, 07:40 AM
I always use my masters to kill troopers, but never for converting buildings, because they are to slow. Just put them on a distance from your base and let them attack everything that comes near them, that's the best way to use them.



:lsduel: :duel: :mob:

duder
04-11-2002, 07:53 AM
A nice tactic is to send in masters to scout the enemies base. Find out where his AA defence is weak, and convert AA towers. Then send in your bombers and fighters! This is good for taking out defensive players who dig theselves in.

The Red Master
04-11-2002, 09:36 AM
Problem1: So turn you're enemy a bit further then you're base!!

problem2: When you send you're master to convert enemy turrets you'll need more then one master and some troops and if you still send one master try to convert a turret that's not surrounded with other turrets or enemy units. :vadar:

problem3: Don't send them with to much troops and try again, just make sure you have enough to protect you're masters. :syoda:

problem4: There is no solution fore that perheps you should send 3 jedi masters. And if one is destroyed then the other two will continieu and you will have that turret. :lsduel:

I'll hope I solved some off you're problems!!

:lightning

SirKai
04-11-2002, 01:37 PM
... but, I've already tried all that you said. I tried sending a pack of 4 masters along with a small group of about 3 SM, 3 AA, and 2 DM. The Jedis' usefulness is still limited.

Plus, this game is best played with as little micro-management as possible and jedi are micro-management intensive. If you turn your back for a second, the computer takes control of them the second they have finished the task you assigned to them and the computer is as dumb as bricks.

I've decided that 1 Jedi novice to collect holocrons for Nova is cost-efficient. The resources that someone would sink into Jedi would be much better spent on mechs and a few bounty hunters(considering I always play Empire and TF).

I appreciate your comments, though.

Thanks,
SirKai

duder
04-11-2002, 01:41 PM
Its unfortunate but on-one really uses Jedi in online games. They are probably the least effective unit in the game, after the probot of course!!! :D Perhaps the XP will bring some much needed changes.

Chessack
04-13-2002, 08:25 PM
When I play the Empire, I usually load up at least one AT-AT in my invasion force, with 10 Sith Knights (or sometimes 6 ot 7 of them and the rest Sith Masters). They provide extremly good "close ground support" for the mechs, should mounted troops, enemy Jedi, etc, try to attack the feet of my AT-ATs. In large bunches, Sith and Jedi can be a real pain, but you have to use them wisely. Sending them running across the open ground while they're being shot to peices by a horde of enemy troops is useless and they won't do much for you that way. Air-dropping them onto the midst of enemy forces, though, works quite well.

Koenig
05-03-2002, 10:45 AM
I managed to take out about 70 assorted Repeater Troopers, Strike Mechs, Mech Destroyers and Assault Mechs(Gungun) with 3 Sith Lords, without any converting, I went for the Assault mechs, and the Sith Lord ripped them up, and then went mental, and started killing everything.They did die natch, but the cost of what they did saved me from a Gungun Pasting and allowed me to counter attack and wipe them out with a Mech/Troop assault.

TarlSS
05-04-2002, 02:57 AM
Using Jedi Masters for turning is generally unfeasible. I think turning is really best used to convert enemy workers to establish footholds in bases, rather then any sort of practical application such as converting an AT-AT. Masters are better used for thier cloaking ability. If the enemy doesn't have detectors,use three to six and switch them onto passive. Then just go walk up -next- to the target you're attacking. Don't actually click on it, or the masters will uncloak. Once you're up nice and close, attack and disengage the cloak. Since they're on passive, the masters will recloak once they're done. Surgical strikes are what Jedi are used for. You don't see them fighting hordes of troopers in the movies, rather they're performing missions or the like. Do the same thing with your Jedi. Send them after high profile targets like powercores. They'll smash them quickly. Or, if you've got the enemy distracted sufficiently, you might be able to convert a shield generator or two.

Of course, the presence of bounty hunters and detectors nullfies this advantage, so.. watch out for them.

something_fett
05-05-2002, 05:41 PM
first off the civ that u use has a big effect on how yur jedi/sith will work. I Personally have found the Rebels as the best civ to use jedi in. the way i use them is i build 3or4 temples and then let them sit till i have like 10-15 all the time im waiting i just play defense wit hvy mech destroyers troops and air cover. once i get all those jedi (usally about 10 of them are masters) i take my jedi along wit some mounties and have them attack power cores while i have the rest of my army attack the opponnets. with that many jedi and mounties they take care of those cores really quick. and i usally only lose like one or 2. then once u gained that ground make a sheild and some turrets and then bring in cannons to distract the enemy from yur jedi. then just do the same thing as before and they will probly resin before yur done wit him

:fett:

Automaton
05-05-2002, 06:31 PM
One thing of note is that the Rebels and Royal Naboo are the only races that get Mind Trick without having All Techs turned on, (Which I wouldn't anyways). Ergo, many races get shafted on Jedi/Sith techs in general, and many races suck with using the Jedi, such as the Wookies and Gungans.

EDIT: Is it just me, or should the Empire's Sith have mind trick as well? So far, the only races that have it normally are good, so calling it "Jedi/Sith mind trick" is a misnomer because there are no sith that can naturally do it. And you'd think that something like personal cloaking would lead to more subterfuge, with happens more with the sith than the Jedi anyways. :\