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Rajess MoDuron
04-04-2002, 09:07 PM
Note to reader, I have HS level C++ skill, ONLY, they wouldn't let me take it at the College level because of my math score on the little dumb test they had. Apparently 620 on the SAT is not enough to be a CS minor. I cannot do this alone.

There are at the time of AotC, 7 different Lightsaber combat techniques. You know this if you have been following the spoilers a little bit, as T-bone had an article on it a little while ago.

Each form has it's own strengths and weaknesses, and each form was designed specifically to combat something either environmental or agressoral (word? I don't think so).

Here is a brief description of each form, as I understand them. T-bone only described the ones seen in AotC, so I have to elaborate and invent somewhat. When the team is assembled of course, this will all be hashed out, but for now it's only me. (How sad that I only have HS level C++ knowledge.

Form I: Closest I can come is Kyle Katarn in Jedi Knight. Simple and not showy, this form would be most effective in the hands of a novice, someone without the training to use some of the other forms. Would likely have a defense bonus and a force effectiveness bonus. I'll define all of this later.

Form II: Elegant and quick, this saber form is most like the present day and 18th century fencing styles, with quick harrasing attacks made at the perimeter of an opponent's guard meant to inflict hamstringing wounds and dismemberment rather than the one killing blow. Count Dooku wields this form in Episode II. Quick on the defense, but due to the concentration necessary should probably include a penalty to force effectiveness when attacks in progress. Percentage of blaster bolts reflected back should also suffer a penalty, so as to create parity with the forms.

Form III: Developed at a time where energy weapons like blasters were more and more often falling into the hands of enemies of the Jedi, this form evolved from training exercises meant to increase a Jedi's deflection of blaster bolts. A defensive form, it is the fastest form, but as a result, requires the most concentration of any of the forms. As a consequence, force effectiveness should be very low, but defense, speed, and the percentage of blaster bolts reflected back at the origin should be very high. Obi-Wan Kenobi studied this form after Qui-Gon Jinn's death.

Form IV: The most agressive form that the Jedi study, this form uses wide, fast, sweeping motions intent on picking up momentum and knocking your opponent off balance. Every parry is an attack in itself, and as this form is not for those who remain on the defensive, quickness is essential. Average at blocking blaster fire back at it's target, and slightly below average in the more agressive force use, this is a form for those who wish to end combat quickly and are confident they will make few mistakes.
Anakin Skywalker and Darth Vader use this form.

Form V: Little is known about this form, therefore I will confer with those who join the team on it. May be a form that uses two lightsabers, may be a form that requires lots of throwing and spinning...who knows?

Form VI: Because VII is very straight forward and to the point, this should probably be the most elaborate form in the repetoir.

Form VII: A combination of modern day fencing and Kendo styles, this is the style Mace Windu uses. Should be the hardest to pull off, but when used by someone who knows what they are doing, should also be the most effective.


If my idea tickles your fancy, let me know. I don't need to be a major part of the Mod, but I would like at the least to have creative input and be a beta tester. I can also be organizer, I'm pretty good at that. But as I could not contribute much codewise initially, it doesn't make much sense for me to be end all be all boss.

If you're interested, email me!

sethyruxpin@aol.com

padawanrajess@cs.com

chexmaniac@hotmail.com (for some reason having trouble accessing, so use this as a last resort)

my AIM is alkalineruxpin. I don't have ICQ, and really haven't been all that impressed by it, so you ICQ snobs just email me.

Thanks!

Rajess

Swamp
04-05-2002, 12:19 AM
....sounds interesting?

darthpikachu
04-05-2002, 03:02 AM
With so many forms..i would think it would be pretty much near impossible to figure out which form ur opponent is using unless each have a different stance.....but even that, ur opponent have to be standing still for u to figure out which form they are using....
also the main difference between different forms would be force penalties and blocking/damage etc....thus not really different forms as it's more closer to what kind of advantage and penalty would player like to have.

if ur thinking about developing multiple attack stances...u might as well keep the number down like 5 forms where 4 single handed forms each with their own advantages and disadvantages + a 5th 2 bladed saber(darth maul??? personally i'd think 2 bladed lightsabre is cumbersom and dangerous for the user... since u can only grip the middle part...)
then u can develepe differnet stances by the way the player grips the saber(ie..elegent fast stance is 1 handed only....extreme heavy stance would have the saber behind the player like the guy in lastblade2 etc....)

Jidai
04-05-2002, 04:05 AM
I think it should include a system to 'master' these styles correctly. Like if you use a more dangerous style wrong, you cut your own arm off, or something...

TigZy
04-05-2002, 04:50 AM
Originally posted by darthpikachu
With so many forms..i would think it would be pretty much near impossible to figure out which form ur opponent is using unless each have a different stance.....but even that, ur opponent have to be standing still for u to figure out which form they are using....

I don't see your point. Why do you need to know what stance they're using? In a mod like this, knowing how your opponent will attack is detrimental to winning, but this is the type of thing which will be denoted by how the opponent actually attacks, not the way he holds his saber.

Originally posted by darthpikachu
Also the main difference between different forms would be force penalties and blocking/damage etc....thus not really different forms as it's more closer to what kind of advantage and penalty would player like to have.

No, the main difference between the forms would be different attacking/defense styles. Rajess said this, but included the force penalties and such to note, realistically, what penalties would incur if the style is used. I doubt that he'd be able to breifly go in depth about what attacks and so forth the styles would use, which would be why he only mentioned this breifly, or glossed over it.

Originally posted by darthpikachu
if ur thinking about developing multiple attack stances...u might as well keep the number down like 5 forms where 4 single handed forms each with their own advantages and disadvantages + a 5th 2 bladed saber(darth maul??? personally i'd think 2 bladed lightsabre is cumbersom and dangerous for the user... since u can only grip the middle part...)
then u can develepe differnet stances by the way the player grips the saber(ie..elegent fast stance is 1 handed only....extreme heavy stance would have the saber behind the player like the guy in lastblade2 etc....)

I'm afraid the posters intent was to bring the 7 lightsaber combat stances around the time of AotC to JK2 in a mod form, rather than make up his own. Though perhaps if the mod ends up getting along well more styles might be added.

Darth Valinor
04-05-2002, 06:56 AM
Where is this 7 forms of lightsaber combat coming from? None of the movies ever talk about that. I don't think any of the books go into that sort of detail either. I'm just wondering where this idea that there are 7 distinct forms of lightsaber combat comes from. The trailers for AotC does not show enough action to be able to get all this information...

AV4T4R
04-05-2002, 08:41 AM
1) What is AOTC?

2) Ideas are really good, but dont use so many forms,

Just make something like

Blue stance : Stab and straight shot, really fast style, enable u to have a block degres ov.. 80 Degrees, make small damage, u can make fast ISTANT shot with this move, and u can combo togheter till 4 or 5 consecutive fast moves, then u'r player just rest for 1 second! ( remember run backward speed should be reduced to the half of the forward one )

Yellow stance : A stance based on large spinning shot, but WIHTOUT the jk2 spinning system, just something like medium charge slash, mainly based on orizontal slash, and with combo that can be able take also 180 į degrees of range
block system reduced to 40 degrees.

Red Stance : Mainly based on large charge assault, with combo able to slash really hard, this shot need a charge time and a rest time, and it's slow but ALSO if u block, u take some damage from it ( or it will be too much disvanataged ) so it can be blocked at your risk, best way should be avoid it.

then make the players SLOWER.. a middle way between SLOW speed and RUN speed and make evasive manovre shorter adn faster, i mean, example:
U'r chargin me with a red vertical strike, i stand to block it, and in LAST moment i make a SIDE jump ( something about 2 metres of range ) in diagonal way against u, so u miss me, and i'm on your side to strike u with a stab!

It should be really better then the jk 2 manouvre right now, that are a loooong ROLL that take u out from the fight.

Rajess MoDuron
04-05-2002, 11:58 AM
I had a massive post planned and written, but just as I was getting to the last point, Explorer had a fatal error and died. Stupid Win 98.

Anyway, let me say this:

1) The number of forms is negotiable, however, to fit in the scope I envision there can be no less than five, no more than 7.

2)The URL for the story I got the idea from is here:

http://www.cinescape.com/24/editorial.asp?aff_id=24&this_cat=Prequel+News&action=page&obj_id=33570

It's a reliable source, and if you don't want Spoiler information, don't go there.

3) Tiger or whatevs, you know exactly what I mean. This is supposed to be an incredibly intricate and lifelike modification (as lifelike as star wars can get, anyway), and the stuff the other people are mentioning has been done (simply changing saber stances, etc.) in Jedi Knight. They were great mods for JK, but we can do so much more with JO. The only question I ask is "Why not?"

4) Star Wars is a massive universe. Massive and wonderful and breathtaking and everything. You cannot assume that everything in this world, this environment, is going to be spelled out in the movies. If, that is, you want to truly honor George Lucas' vision, give the man some credit for having made stuff up not in the movies. Things are implied, alluded to, and glossed over all the time. Lando lost his ship to Han...and yet it never mentions how. It is now accepted as fact that he lost it in a hand of Sabaac. There are things like this all over the place.

Have a little imagination, and please help me bring this dream to life.

Rajess MoDuron
04-05-2002, 12:50 PM
bump...and VOMIT

Rajess MoDuron
04-05-2002, 06:11 PM
I feel the need to bump again.

<bump>

Rajess MoDuron
04-08-2002, 02:50 PM
What is up with this biznass? I need to <bump> again?

Come one people, I really thought folks would get on board this one, so far I've only recieved one reply. I'm not saying I wanna be dictator or anything, but isn't ANYONE remotely interested?

ANYONE??

Goreld
04-08-2002, 04:40 PM
Good luck animating the models to do all those different stances.

To be honest, unless you have a kickass motion capture studio and some martial artists waiting to do their routines, simulating that many fighting styles is a fool's errand. It's one thing to put in a character with a simple run cycle; swordfighting is damn complex and HARD to animate.

Rajess MoDuron
04-08-2002, 05:12 PM
But you see, in a way, we won't really have to do that. The moves will all be in the movies. I mean, yeah, one way would be a motion capture suit, and that would probably the easiest way, but in this easy=expensive, and I don't have the money. If my idea could get corporate sponsorship that would be one thing, but I doubt that is happening. RAVEN, ARE YOU LISTENING?? :)

Set Al Ta'kwas

moore+
04-08-2002, 06:38 PM
Er, just because the moves are in the *movies* doesn't automagically animate the models for you in the *game*, lol. The fact that they exist in movies already makes it even HARDER because people expect them to look like they've seen in the movies, a wee bit off and they wont notice why, but in their heads they will know it doesn't look quite right.

You'll need a very very competent animator to do them all, and a very very solid understanding of ghoul2 or whatever jk2 is using to blend them smoothly. Find an animator that good who has the TIME and will work for FREE is pretty unlikely, but good luck to ya!

Rajess MoDuron
04-08-2002, 07:49 PM
So it could obviously be dumbed down...but that could all be done in team meetings and stuff. But I need a team first!! LOL

Seth

quamosity
04-09-2002, 03:47 AM
I have been thinking about such an idea myself, and yes, the animations would be a pain in the ass.

However, with those seven different styles of saber usage, also something to consider is the differences in the lightsabers themselves. What about dual bladed, extendable blade, and akimbo (2 sabers...one in each hand) sabers? You can go all out with saber combinations to make one hell of a jk2 mod.

Like JK Tournament. Get everyone in a level, customize your jedi self with lightsaber, and go all out.

I want to see the akimbo sabers (used by Boc in Jedi Knight 1, and Anakin in AotC--> see the trailer) really bad for some reason. Double bladed would be awesome, as would an extendable blade. But I would really love to see an all out saber mod for jk2.

Question though, does jk2 have skeletal animation? Or is that just wishful thinking...

oh, and hey moore+ :D

UniKorn
04-09-2002, 03:54 AM
JK2 has skeletal animation.

BloodRiot
04-09-2002, 05:01 AM
Akimbo Sabers and Double Bladed Sabers are good.

A Jedi Tournament would not be such a bad idea. A saber Only Tournament. Custumizable characters and Styles... yes yes.. i kinda like it.

But honestly, the animations are gonna be a B#$ch to accomplish.

More acrobatics are also welcome.

If it can be done, then I say thumbs up.

Dea
04-09-2002, 07:14 AM
there is a lot of actobatics in those models already that players can't access. so you just have to make them accessible, not animate them.. at least saves some work...

BTW, totally love the idea of a saber tournament mod

Rajess MoDuron
04-09-2002, 10:38 AM
Now THIS is what I'm talking about.

Okay, so we dumb it down, how about two different styles for regular saber, one that is defensive and one that is offensive (but not slow, that is my least favorite thing about JO, the stupid slow attack when a lightsaber blade HAS NO MASS) and then a double-bladed style and an akimbo style. Much easier, no?

As for the extended saber, I guess we could fit it in if we wanted to, but that had to be my least favorite part of SBX. I really hated that damn thing.

Anyway, keep the conversation FLOWING!!

Seth

Commodus
04-09-2002, 11:23 AM
Interesting ideas - it would be really good if done properly, and I'm not convinced that the modelling will be hellishly hard, you can learn to use 3DS Max/Gmax within a few weeks...

BTW, they teach you C++ in High School? I'm a bit surprised, because here in Hong Kong you can take a "Computer Studies" GCSE course and you only learn stuff about databases, using macros in Excel, and making stuff in Visual Basic...

Rajess MoDuron
04-09-2002, 11:34 AM
We get real rudimentary c++. I was pretty good at it though.

Seth

norton256
04-09-2002, 12:49 PM
if you want to add more styles, add 2 more, the double lightsabre style, and the 2 lightsabre style, make it so that a slain enemies lightsabre can be picked up

Rajess MoDuron
04-09-2002, 01:34 PM
Okay! Here goes, revision of mission statement:

The game setting is like Duel, only with a little spin. Depending on the style you use, you may fight more than one person at a time (the other people automatically cause no damage to each other, and are considered to be on the same team for force power purposes).

Everyone starts out with saber level 1. This is the JK style (this is important, NOT JO style. JO style shows Kyle's progression in his style over 13 years (5 after JK to MotS, and 8 more to JO) and would be completely inappropriate for the first style).

Kills give you points.

Points can be used towards Advanced Dueling styles.

Now, other considerations to make:

1)Is this like an RPG, and if so, would it not be annoying to leave the server and lose ALL of your point information?

REMEDY:

Some file within JO keeps track of your points. I know, I know, after a certain period of time, everyone would have an ungodly amount of points, and would basically be able to choose whatever style they wanted, or everyone would have the same style and it would be very difficult to break in to. Well, okay. One way to fix this would be to insert something in JO like was in JK, where you can set up individual characters and you select them before you enter the game. The opening menu I mean, not the MP character selection screen. I donít know about you guys, but I found that to be very helpful. This could also help us alleviate a major gripe I have with JO, which is that if you go from a FF server to a NF server and then back to a FF server, you have to completely reset your force powers half the time, and even when you donít, they still require tweaking. But these things will come later. Right now, the purpose of those different characters. The points added up, kept, used for some ranking thing or whatever (we keep a database of who beats who, and how often, the works) BUT, the saber style you choose for that character is PERMANENT. You make a choice in the higher tiers of forms and it stays. No ifs, ands or buts. You want a new style? Make a new character. Another remedy could be where you get up to a certain point total and the file starts subtracting points, simulating your character aging. Not only this, but to make it easier for n00bs to break in, we have it made so either:

a)More points are given for killing people with higher tier saber styles than you.

b)People on same level tiers fight each other, and the only time intermingling occurs is within melee servers and special instances (i.e. two middle tiers fighting one high tier)


Now, the only real ways I see this working within a Duel setting are:

1)Someone mentioned a ladder idea, where there are several dueling arenas within one level. This could work.

2)A server network. Dedicated servers feeding statistics to a larger server. People can jump into any server and begin fighting like they had never gone offline.


OTHER MISCELLANEA:

SERVER TYPES

Light v. Dark Melee Servers: No damage done to members of the same force side. At the same time, no cheesy blue or red skins (unless you 1337ís pick them, of course). At the same time is not Duel. Everyone on the server fights and respawns as in FFA.

Realistic Melee Servers: Probably the server choice you Dark Side haters will choose the most. Light Side, as usual, cannot fight Light Side. Dark Side, however, can fight Dark Side like there is no tomorrow. Respawn as normal.

Realistic Duel Servers: This would be the only server type for Duel. Only people of opposite sides or Dark Side users can be put into rotation to fight each other. Other considerations as well, of course.

FORCE POWER STUFF

Okay, I dunno about you, but I think some of the force powers here are broken. I donít whine when it happens, but I find myself an all to often victim of the drain- grip-walk-around-your-ass-so-you-canít-push-me combo.

Maybe:

Only allow Speed, jump, push, pull, healing, and electricity. Electricity could be used in a weakened combined form with drain to heal a little (yet take none of your opponentís force power) and heal would obviously be more effective at healing.

Alright, my head and hands hurt. RSVP please with comments! This is again, only a ROUGH overview. If people want to be on da team, we would of course talk about all this in depth at a later date.

CONTACT INFO:

emails:
chexmaniac@hotmail.com
sethyruxpin@aol.com
padawanrajess@cs.com

AIM: alkalineruxpin

PS: Of course Double blades would still be available, as would two lightsabers. I think the whole picking up other people's lightsaber thing would be awesome, especially if you retained their color. But, and I know this is weird to hear me say, that might be shooting the moon.

Wow, never thought I'd say that.

ThunderChunky
04-09-2002, 03:51 PM
The idea sounds pretty solid, especially since I've been longing for a well done blade combat game since Die By the Sword.

If Raven releases a tool which allows for the modification of a skeleton, rather than a model, for animations, doing this wouldn't be all too difficult, as you would only have to do one set of animations, and then it could be applied to all models. However, as I have little idea how the Quake engine actually works (I'm on much friendlier terms with UT), I don't know the possibility of this.

On a personal note, I'd like to see the stances balanced against each other without having to use force as a factor (while it could come into play). In the current game, I am a big fan of no-force saber matches. But that's just me.

Should be interesting how this turns out.

-tc

Rajess MoDuron
04-09-2002, 06:38 PM
Thanks for your input Thunder, and I too hope that the skeletals will be editable, as that would not only make it possible, but much easier than I had ever thought conceivable.

Let's get some more input people!

Seth

quamosity
04-09-2002, 06:48 PM
I have thought alot recently about how to balance the sabers. And what it has boiled down to is strength and length.

Limits on the force obviously would be helpful--as, for example, akimbo sabers wouldnt be able to have any force unless one saber was put away

Theres alot more to this, but I don't quite have time to discuss at the moment.

Rajess MoDuron
04-09-2002, 06:55 PM
The length of the saber itself should never change...unless I am outvoted on this one. However, the length of the sweep shall we say of the attacks would be one of the variables.

LENGTH of attack (not time wise, but distance wise)
STRENGTH of attack
SPEED of attack

These are the three variables I am thinking about.

DeathsHead
04-09-2002, 07:04 PM
I could probably get the server system designed. Kinda like a storage database. The first time you come on you could get a username and password or something, and then somehow tie that in to the server through the privatepassword setting maybe. Have different levels of combat on each server culminating in the elite server after you rack up a huge amount of points???? Still allow them to choose the server they want though...

The Truthful Liar
04-09-2002, 07:13 PM
Rajess MoDuron, you've come up with a very intruiging idea for an extremely complex mod. For a first I would like your email adress so I can contact you further on seeing you become part of the NRG team. (Iether place your email on this same forum, if you feel uncomfortable with that - then I can give you mine)

The NRG Team which is nearing completion is designed for creating products for a number of communities, pending on the ammount of work put in that will probably be the same persons feedback. Also this opens up opportunities for future aspiring editors to have the possibility of being looked over by larger important Editing (2d & 3d) Teams.

Possibilities for Editors could open up basically, and also NRG would be a source for producing resources for JK2 (hopefully) and other upcomming game titles.

More information upon recieval of interest/email.

Cheers ;)

Rajess MoDuron
04-09-2002, 07:34 PM
Sounds very interesting, and I would be remiss to say I was not intrigued. There is one small little problem with me becoming a member of any team. I have little to no editing experience. I only know what is possible, and what I would like to see. My c++ skills were once quite good, but I have since lost much of my command of the language.

IF you wanted me purely as an concept designer or something in that respect, I would be more than willing to hop on board. I work from 9-5, which also puts some restraints on me, but there is no limit as to how long I can stay in the office.

My emails are:
chexmaniac@hotmail.com
sethyruxpin@aol.com
padawanrajess@cs.com

Set Al Ta'kwas

The Truthful Liar
04-09-2002, 07:48 PM
Great! If you have MSN messenger I will add your email, also I will email you tomorow concerning what your position could hold and descisions on times since you have a somewhat limiting schedule.

(it's midnight now btw [thats why I will email you later], g'night Jk2.net, g'night everyone)

Rajess MoDuron
04-10-2002, 01:24 PM
I have a massive update to make, might just make a website, don't know.

Latur

Rajess MoDuron
04-10-2002, 05:16 PM
Almost forgot aboutcha AB, here is my email:

chexmaniac@hotmail.com
sethyruxpin@aol.com
padawanrajess@cs.com

my IM is alkalineruxpin

Latuer, hope to hear from youz.

Seth

moore+
04-10-2002, 09:30 PM
Hi Q!

I reskinned kyle so he's less of a dork, ask me on irc sometime, really helps the sp game for me at least.

"I want to see the akimbo sabers (used by Boc in Jedi Knight 1, and Anakin in AotC--> see the trailer) really bad for some reason. "

For some reason? hehe

Akimbo addict!

quamosity
04-10-2002, 11:00 PM
besides the fact that I am an akimbo addict, I still think it would be cool to have. Glad to hear you have played with jk2 skins moore, I will get in contact with ya sometime

Rajess MoDuron
04-11-2002, 02:37 PM
Still working on the manifesto...it is coming. Also am now working with NRG, so hopefully we'll be putting it out with some other cool stuff that I don't include. Can always use input, so continue to give it!

Seth

Irate Customer
04-11-2002, 04:37 PM
Couple of things from my perspective here:

Everyone will want to use Akimbo if they have the same size Lightsaber as everyone else due to the sheer offensive prowess with this style. Here is what I suggest to remedy this. Change the size of the Lightsabers all the way around. Strong syle can have a bigger blade resembling two-handers from midevil syles, Akimbo would wield two smaller blades with shorter range, and then standard style would carry the traditional length. I think this would add a lot of flavor to it.I also would limit the two styles requiring both hands to be limited to Speed and Jump since their hands are being used to carry the sabers. These two styles will have tremendous offensive and defensive power due to reach (Two hander) and speed (Akimbo). This is another way to add flavor to your mod and separate you from the original game. This game has had the best melee combat I have ever experienced and I think adding to it would make it the industry standard.

One bit of coding I would like to see is this (and this is a bit of imagery here)

Instead of a Dual command, there would be a cooperative command which can be initiated by a player to another player. Once excepted they fight back to back and pivot as a unit. While in this mode they are locked at the back so they cannot move except for left and right swivelling to fend off attackers. They could not damage each other but their saber defense would be raised a tad. This does hurt their mobility and jumping but force powers would still act as per their loadout. Fighting a bunch of bots this way could be a great time. And for Light vs. Dark battles this would be very good stuff. Another weakness would be that they are going to be susceptable to lightning attacks and other area of effect weaponry if they are allowed in the mod. I am not sure if this is possible, but since the coding is there for the Dual mode, this might just need some editing from there.

Irate Customer
Wall Walker Extraordinaire

Rajess MoDuron
04-11-2002, 05:20 PM
Thanks for your input! It will be taken into concideration as we work the mod idea out, but remember that the ideas you are commenting on are about 5 days old or something like that...maybe more. I really have no recollection. The mod has become a different beast, larger, more powerful. More like a brand new game than a mod. Some things will fall to the wayside, whereas some will rise up from the ashes. A little melodramatic? Yes.

Seth

Elijah
05-09-2002, 04:23 PM
Welcome to NRG Rajess

ZDawg
- Skinner/Modder for the NRG team

Rajess MoDuron
05-09-2002, 04:48 PM
Thanks! Both for the bump and the welcome!

Hopefully the new patch may make our job slightly easier, eh?

Rajess MoDuron
05-09-2002, 04:50 PM
TWO PAGES!!! YAYAYAYAYAYAY!!!

FreeCrwCPJ
05-09-2002, 08:09 PM
so what the progress with this mod. can you give us an update?

:anakin: :lsduel: :dsaber: :duel: :mob:

Ko'or Oragahn
05-09-2002, 08:50 PM
I started to write down all the features and changes I hoper that a mod could bringn because, to say the least, I am very disappointed by the JO dueling system, without saying that the blue/yellow/red stances is complete non-sense.

I even thought about entering a mod team.

I'm actually making a Quake3 map (with some of my own textures) and am also studying my first year of CGI design/creation/animation with 3DSMAX for video games and movies.

I may be interested to help you if I think the mod is worth of it, which means that I'll never spend my time for something that I don't like, of course.

Here are the major points that I think will need the most work :

- The character creation process.

Skins, models, Force powers, combat style, weapon, attributes (RPG inside of course), et cetera.
You'll have the choice between predefined models that have their own skins, models and so on, or be able to make your custom character.
Favourite stance (remember Jerec's one during the final battle at the Valley - quite special and unique).
That simply means that if you use a custom model, you won't be able to take Vader's outfits with Maul's weapon, for eg.
Of course, that means that the mod will have to give the player a good bank of custom made characters.
Plus age, height, stamina, weight, max jump height, agility, mobility, strenght and more.

- In game Dueling mechanics.

Correct the moves, the attack/defense functions. Add a "enemy duel lock" function (wherever you are, all your attacks will be directed toward your enemy : This will add a lot more possibilities for the combos and gestures), the way your attributes will affect your actions, how to make the fights be like the ones in the movies : more lightsabre, less force powers, and so on...
Thin about how many fight styles can be linked to each weapon.
Get rid of the quickier = weaker hits.
Also add the possibility to play with the one hit = wound or death.

Be able to switch between one handed and two handed stances.


- Force powers.

A lot of things to be changed here also.
Think about why the Jedi and Sith in the movies can't use the Force on each other as much as they do on objects, droids or stromtroopers (I'm thinkg about a complex concentration-calm-reflex-stamina and many more attributes mix that will be defined at the character creation process stage and that will affect the way you use the Force in game).
Tweak many Force powers.
Make the Force Absorb, Protection and on invisible to your oponents (only).
Add many new powers.
Plus many other points...

//

This was for the major elements, but there are many subpoints that need to be corrected or added.

...............

As you saw, there are a lot of things that I would like to see and there this is just an exhaustive list, as I didn't wrote ALL the things that I wanted.

Ko'or Oragahn
05-10-2002, 12:09 PM
May I say... bump ?

Jarrodo Malachi
05-11-2002, 01:19 AM
SWEET MOD IDEA!!!!!

But let me adress some issues that come to mind.

Acrobatics. seeing that this mod will be extensive you can't over look the jedi's manuverability. i've seen recently mods that "change" manuvers like the roll to the butter fly kick thingy...it gets on my nerves because i use roll alot. if you deside on doing manuvers don't change! just add

here are some example moves i would like to see added to the manuvers in your mod

1. backward/forward hand spring. Double tap forward while in the direction you want to spring and press crouch

2. Turn around roll (the roll lara croft uses in tomb raider games that when exacuted turns the player in the opposite direction really fast.). press jumb and crouch and back at the exact same time.

3.the dodge manuver the reborns use in single player. make the a force power like saber throw with 3 levels of affectiveness.

4.Wall jumping. assosieated with the force jump like the wall ride. When you jump towards a wall and press jump again in the direction away from the wall you can do a spiderman style bounce and leap. if you ever have played metroid then you should know what i mean.

5. edge grab. (another tomb raider style move). press use while in a jump and you will reach out for a edge to grab (great for saving your ass if you get pushed off a cliff or some thing) pressing forward would make you player model climb back up.


Extended melee. ever wonder why they didn't put kicks and punchs into JO. they even have the sound effects in your asset base. and a gran boxer the dusn't appear in single player unless you spawn it in.

you can go two ways with hand to hand combat. the simple way (like in JK where they just had one badly animated kick for all) or the complex way. a system just like saber combat only with your hands and feet.

Think maul landed a beautiful kick on obi wan that sent him sailing off the catwalk in EP 1. don't you want to do that too!!!

Add two more attack buttons one for kicks the other for punchs.
and melee stlyes and stances like the saber's (fast, medium and slow) you could link saber moves to melee attacks to greatly expand and enhanse the combos.

i'll post a whole list of the basic moves and combos some time else

Ko'or Oragahn
05-11-2002, 01:18 PM
Thks for the reply.

Well, it's not My mod. This is only a sum up of a bunch of ideas I have.

But let me adress some issues that come to mind.

Acrobatics. seeing that this mod will be extensive you can't over look the jedi's manuverability. i've seen recently mods that "change" manuvers like the roll to the butter fly kick thingy...it gets on my nerves because i use roll alot. if you deside on doing manuvers don't change! just add


I agree. I also use the roll, but not always.

If such a mod had to be released, its goal would be to make the game look like the movies. More realistic moves as much as you can, plus the accrobatics that you can realize through the Force.

That means that the MP roll may be tweaked into the SP roll, because I find it quite lame to see players rolling on the ground ŗ la Sonic in order to go faster.

There's also a similar problem with the circle jump, which is a constant in every Q3 engine based game. In wolf MP, it was quite cleverly erased from the game dynamics (but we can still use it if you know how to).

See people jumping /andor rolling all over the place in order to "run" faster isn't quite appropriate for such a mod that would tend to make the game look like the movies.

1. backward/forward hand spring. Double tap forward while in the direction you want to spring and press crouch

I guess that with the "lock_duel" option, such combos could be easily added to the game.

2. Turn around roll (the roll lara croft uses in tomb raider games that when exacuted turns the player in the opposite direction really fast.). press jumb and crouch and back at the exact same time.


Yep, a really usefull move. But each move, hit, kicks, punch, slash and jump could tap into your stamina and concentration pools.

3.the dodge manuver the reborns use in single player. make the a force power like saber throw with 3 levels of affectiveness.


Ok about the dodge.
Now, I don't know if I understood what you said about the LS Throw, but my point is that LS Throw should ba a power and not the second lightsabre attack. It should be taken as another Force power like it was in JK and not as the second LS attack.
Freeing the second lightsabre attack button will literally DOUBLE the number of attacks and combos you can realize with a LS.
I think it is a must.

4.Wall jumping. assosieated with the force jump like the wall ride. When you jump towards a wall and press jump again in the direction away from the wall you can do a spiderman style bounce and leap. if you ever have played metroid then you should know what i mean.


Yeah, MetroÔd, one of my favourite games ! :D
There was a time when me and a bunch of friends wanted to make a Quake 3 mod with such a feature.
I'd say that once you have the Force, a lot of things you can do. ;)

5. edge grab. (another tomb raider style move). press use while in a jump and you will reach out for a edge to grab (great for saving your ass if you get pushed off a cliff or some thing) pressing forward would make you player model climb back up.


I do also agree. I think this is a must. Now we will have to figure if this will cause your player to :

- lose his lightsabre.
- grab the edge with his two hands and switching the LS off if it was ignited.
- grab the edge with only one hand and keep his lightsabre ignited in the otehr.

You're thinking about Obi-Wan in TPM (and AOTC ;) )... no ?

Extended melee. ever wonder why they didn't put kicks and punchs into JO. they even have the sound effects in your asset base. and a gran boxer the dusn't appear in single player unless you spawn it in.

you can go two ways with hand to hand combat. the simple way (like in JK where they just had one badly animated kick for all) or the complex way. a system just like saber combat only with your hands and feet.

Think maul landed a beautiful kick on obi wan that sent him sailing off the catwalk in EP 1. don't you want to do that too!!!

Add two more attack buttons one for kicks the other for punchs.
and melee stlyes and stances like the saber's (fast, medium and slow) you could link saber moves to melee attacks to greatly expand and enhanse the combos.

i'll post a whole list of the basic moves and combos some time else


The fact is that you must get a balance between the max number of buttons players want to use while playing a FPS and the max number of functions that are unleashed by the mod.

I mean that we to give the maximum of moves and actions with the minimum of required binded buttons.

That's why having both punch and kick given one button may be too much when we know that there will be already knew Force powers (well, maybe there will be a maximum of Force powers allowed per player).

But on the other hand, if both punch and kick had their own buttons, it would be easier for the players to use them.

****

Now, about the blue/yellow/red stance and the slow, medium and quick moves.

Here's my point :

This will be a bit technical but in fact it is needed to understand why some dynamics will be kept in regard of others.

Since a lightsabre can cut flesh in matter of milliseconds, it is almost useless to have slow moves.

By the way, the slower the move, the weakier the attack. And generally, when you don't put all your forces in an the attack, you have more chances to respond and parry to a counter attack from your enemy. This simply contradicts the actual dynamics used by the game. I nthe actual games, the slow moves are simply ridiculous. In fact, slow moves shouldn't exist.

Safe a guy has a special armor (like Vader), if he gets touched by a lightsabre blade, he will be instantly wounded or split in two.

That's why I say that a realistic system is better suited for the mod.

Now, about the stances. Why would we remove them or at least change them ?

Because with a lightsabre, the quickiest attack will always be the most dangerous, unless you have to keep your blade into something in order to melt it, and since your blade does always unleash the same amount of damage per second, making big swirls won't increase the power of the balde *sigh*.

I think that the system choosen by Raven is pretty false and non-sense at all.

By the way, most SW techs assume that the blade of a lightsabre is near as masseless.

So why duelers in the movie make twirls and a lot of other moves ?

Because it adds more kinetic energy to their weapon. The kinetic energy is created by the moves of their body and then transmitted to their weapon they're closely holding.

The result : When the blade is blocked, it has more chances to overcome a parry and go through the defense of your enemy.
He will have two choices : Block the attack with as much strenght as he can of let the attack pass and counter attack.

Of course, letting an attack pass is pretty dangerous and you must know what you're doing.

The counter part a twirl kind of move is that it makes you more vulnerable to your oponent attacks, more than if you weren't moving so much (like Obi-Wan against Vader in ANH, even if Obi-Wan tried a 360į twirl in order to break Vader's defense).

So we have many choices for the mod.

Since I wanted to remove the LS throw from the second button and substitute it by a stronger lightsabre attack function, this maybe enough to remove the blue/yellow/red thing and then free more bind space for other functions like switching between fighting styles, AND NOT BETWEEN ATTACK VELOCITES as it actually is in JO, which is useless.

In fact we could switch between agressive and defensive stances.

This new system will be way enough to cover all the different styles.

I've read that AOTC's Visual Dictionnary will present a brief description of the different lightsabre fight styles used in the movie. It's going up to seven forms.

Well, I think only a few of these so-called forms are really exclusive.

For eg, they talk about Obi-Wan's style that is quite different from Dooku's, mainly because Obi-Wan's is primary orientated against adversaries armed with blasters when Dooku's is almost orientated against other lightsabre wielders.

I must agree and I think it would be pretty accurate to take that into account.

But I almost disagree when they make a difference between Mace's and Obi-wan's, saying that Mace's is less flashy.

In game, you won't need to switch between these so-called two different styles because in fact Mace's is only Obi-Wan's without too much moves but with more direct hit and kill ones.

You don't need to switch to adopt such a behavior !

Btw, the VD didn't mention any reference to Maul's style. It only says taht teh Sith styles are a derivate from the 7th form if I'm not wrong.

Look, if we use the system I propose, you will have these choices :

- The ability to switch between an agressive stance and a defensive stance (and maybe between an intermediate stance, who knows). Agressive stance would be more suited for Sith and the defensive one more suited for the Jedi. In fact we could even more talk in terms of behavior than in terms of stances. That would be better.

- Switch between one or two handed grip.

- Two attack buttons for the lightsabre instead of only one.

So basically, you have :

"Two agressive/defensive behaviors" x "Two attack buttons for the LS"

It gives us four main groups of moves and combos.

But as said before, then we could have a intermediate behavior between totally agressive and totally defensive, plus the fact that some moves would be exclusive to the one or two-handed grips, and then you a system that is far above what you actually have in Jedi Outcast.

Without saying that for example, using Dooku's special curved lightsabre will be more effective with a one-handed grip that with a two-handed grip.


Of course, when you'll create your character, you'll have to determine which style he's better with.

That means you'll have to give points in the styles you think you're the best with if you choose a custom character.

I'll have to dig for this idea.

What AOTC's Visual Dictionnary calls forms would be, from this mod point of view, just a group of predefined configs, like if you were chosing those predefined and prenamed Force Powers configs instead of making your own.

***

That's all for now. ;)

If anyone is interested...

__CKY__
05-12-2002, 05:06 AM
When and if this mod comes out im dling it and im making sure everyone esle will all this stuff sounds very tight and very hard to do i would enjoy playing with it too

Brodieman
05-12-2002, 06:22 AM
Have you given up on the Jedi of The Old Republic Mod then?:(

The Truthful Liar
05-12-2002, 01:54 PM
*shrugs*

Seth's pretty busy, I've been looking through many ideas and I really should get them written down and saved :(

I'm getting started on drawing some sketches of different areas in the playability of this mod (ie: movements; dodging, wall flips, saber attacks, etc..)

B0rG
05-13-2002, 04:14 AM
Before you waste too much time on making this mod (which does sound intreguing) do some research on modelling, or more specifically, animating for Jedi Knight 2. If there's major hurdles in that department, it won't get far off the ground.

Rajess MoDuron
05-13-2002, 11:35 AM
I've been pulling a disappearing act recently, and for that I apologize. Don't worry, everything is still in order, I just have had some stuff to take care of. I'm moving in June, and other stuff, so my mind is in like 6,000 places at once. There has been a lot of TREMENDOUS input recently, and I will get to all of it at some point in the near future. I swear.