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SD_ALLSTAR
04-07-2002, 10:13 PM
Anyone else notice that this is possible in JK2? If your not from CS, bunny hopping is continuosly jumping. Somehow the physics in the game just keep getting your speed faster and faster. I can bunny hop accross entire lvls. You can use a no force jump bunny hop for a fast escape, or if you force jump off an uneven surface, you get a huge speed increase in that direction. You can chain these "super" force jumps together, and cross entire lvls in 3-4 jumps.

Razarblade
04-07-2002, 10:15 PM
You can roll faster than people can even jump and run if you didn't know that.

SD_ALLSTAR
04-07-2002, 10:18 PM
actually, i thought roll was faster, but after 3 or so non force bunny hops, you are moving faster then roll. Connect about 6-7 non force bunnyhops and you are moving as fast as speed force. I catch rollling cappers with bunnyhops

Zodiac
04-07-2002, 10:29 PM
Well it's kind of like bunnyhopping, and your right, jumping like that is even faster than rolling.

Every experienced Quake 3-player jumps around like that, and JK2 has a lot of Q3 elements in it, so you can also use those jumps in JK2. It's excellent btw.. real handy for CTF.

But unlike bunnyhopping in CS, this sort of jumping in Q3 is condoned. I hope JK2ers will see that it's not cheap either.

Valdarious
04-07-2002, 10:32 PM
This was found out a long time ago with Quake2 and it was left in the engine when it made its way over to q3a, it comes before CS was out.

Zed030
04-07-2002, 10:34 PM
I've seen this term in counterstrike altho never seen it (or just didn't recognize it...)

Can someone plz post steps to doing a "bunny hop"?

Zodiac
04-07-2002, 10:39 PM
Originally posted by Valdarious
This was found out a long time ago with Quake2 and it was left in the engine when it made its way over to q3a, it comes before CS was out.

yah. dont u love it too? i feel like superman doing it. i like q3. lots of mods.

Valdarious
04-07-2002, 10:41 PM
Its bacially good strafe jump timing, you time it right and you will keep momentum going.

FWB
04-07-2002, 10:44 PM
Yep, and it is annoying as hell. I, along with others on my team, was constantly trying to chase, with speed, some guy who had stolen the... well animal thingy (can't remember its name)... and he was still going faster, even if I try tried to combine the bunny hoping with speed, I couldn't catch up. Please can Raven get rid of it.

Cow_JK:O
04-07-2002, 10:45 PM
Its one thing in quake3 where anything goes but in a game about Jedis for god's sake it is unbelievably ridiculous to see a jedi hopping around like some kind of monkey.

Plus, not everyone knows how to (or wants to learn--I just want to have fun not learn and practice some silly discipline) and those who do it have a MASSIVE advantage. In CTF...oh god thats just not right.

If you cant tell I come from CS not Q3 :p

Kinopio
04-07-2002, 10:53 PM
I have kinda mixed views on this.

First of all in CTY, when you get the enemy ysalmari, I think the creators of the game wanted the captor to be somewhat immobile but immune to force attacks. But when i get into a CTY game, i see captors with the ysalmari bunnyhopping faster than people with speed force.

just bunnyhopping faster than force speed in general is just kinda bending the rules.

But i use it all the time, and i dont care if they do fix it, but if they wanted to fix it i'm sure they already would have. And like Cow_JK said: "it is unbelievably ridiculous to see a jedi hopping around like some kind of monkey."

Valdarious
04-07-2002, 11:52 PM
Unfortunatly I dont think they can fix it. I am not positive but I think they tried to take it out of quake2 but they couldnt because of a physics thing, but I am not sure really.

Distortion
04-08-2002, 12:17 AM
I play HalfLife DeathMatch and can bunnyhop in AG (AdrenalineGamer) although Valve has taken care of bunnyhopping by adjusting the netcode.
CS aswell as HLDM run on the quake2 engine so bunnyhopping was possible untill Valve ended it all due of the fact that many complains came in from the CS community.
I cant talk for the Q3 lads in here coz I ain t played it that much,
but plz get rid of bunnyhopping in JediKnightII coz it aint the style of this game, and JKII has good effects build into the game itself.
Why try to equalize one game wiv another by adding summin thats originally not the meaning and the theme of the game.
Its simply not this game's style.
If your searching for another dimension to expand your gaming-experience try and master the way of the lightsaber instead of hopping around like a bunch of idiots.

grtz... dis

neovita
04-08-2002, 07:40 PM
Raven, Get rid of bunnyhopping!

GreyJedi
04-08-2002, 10:30 PM
If I am not mistaken, ID Software did take it out of Q2, but the fan community actually complained, and ID put bunnyhopping back into the code.

It is a bug and an exploit, and seems very silly in terms of gameplay and style.

Pvt_Dancer
04-08-2002, 10:48 PM
I will agree with those that would like it removed if possible. It doesn't fit the gameplay of JKO. I don't give a crap whether its in Q3 or 2 or whatever... because I see no real advantage in it. I have been able to hit bunnyhoppers just as easily as other players so far and if they want to hop around looking like an idiot thats their business.

However, in JKO it looks beyond ridiculous and actually ruins the flavor entirely in my opinion. And lets face it.... the Jedi Knight series is all about recreating the Star Wars universe and its flavor. Thats its purpose and appeal. If someone wants to bunnyhop around they can just as easily play quake 3.

Dark_One
04-08-2002, 10:56 PM
End f they hop so what. You use pull and they're on the ground ... except for CTY. They lowered the jump rate of bunnyhopping in RTCW. So they can also do it in JK2.

Mesa hate rabbits.

hughJ
04-08-2002, 10:59 PM
"CS aswell as HLDM run on the quake2 engine so bunnyhopping was possible"

HL/CS/TFC run on a modified Quake1 engine, not Quake2..

the bunnyhopping mechanics for HL/CS/TFC are slightly different than that of Quake2 and Quake3, due to the relative low amount of air-control involved in Quake2 and Quake3, compared to HL...

the difference between JK2 and Q3 in terms of acceptance of bunnyhopping is the fact that in JK2, you have force balance issues in that moving at force-speed speeds should come at the cost of your force meter... however, by using the bunnyhopping technique, you are able to completely negate the need for that force power at all..

this is the reason why in HL-based mods that involve class balance(TFC), game speed balance(CS), the issue of bunnyhopping has become defined as more of an exploit than simply a game feature...

Swamp
04-08-2002, 11:01 PM
Originally posted by Zodiac
Well it's kind of like bunnyhopping, and your right, jumping like that is even faster than rolling.

Every experienced Quake 3-player jumps around like that, and JK2 has a lot of Q3 elements in it, so you can also use those jumps in JK2. It's excellent btw.. real handy for CTF.

But unlike bunnyhopping in CS, this sort of jumping in Q3 is condoned. I hope JK2ers will see that it's not cheap either.


... i would like to know why it's not cheap ... as i can rationalize it, every aspect of this skill is cheap, im not saying your an idiot for using it, but id like to know why it's not cheap ....

Swamp
04-08-2002, 11:04 PM
Originally posted by Zed030
I've seen this term in counterstrike altho never seen it (or just didn't recognize it...)

Can someone plz post steps to doing a "bunny hop"?

it would benefit the community if you didn't learn it

Prox Kolari
04-08-2002, 11:08 PM
Me too. I'm also sick of all these cheap, cheap asses out there bunnyhop-draining, drain-gripping, or whatever other neat little exploits that are based on exploiting weird timing issues in the engine, and saying "but it's legit! I'm not cheating!" Cheap is always legit, but people dislike it. "But I'm winning."

Okay, great. If the point is to get the most kills, have fun. Let's turn the Star Wars universe into freaking Unreal Tournament. Next up, a voice patch with Yoda taunting "Die, b!+@#."

Obi-Cyph
04-08-2002, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by hughJ
"CS aswell as HLDM run on the quake2 engine so bunnyhopping was possible"

HL/CS/TFC run on a modified Quake1 engine, not Quake2..

er, so just out of curiosity, you're saying that valve licensed the quake 1 engine, and then converted quakec to c++.... wouldnt it be more highly logical that its the quake2 engine, considering quake2 is c++ as well?

Bunny hopping has been around for ages, while I'm not certain if it was possible in quake 1, I know it was possible in Team Fortress for Quake (And incidentally, quakeworld)

*shrugs*

Zodiac
04-08-2002, 11:59 PM
lolz we already had this discussion about which engine HL/CS/TFC use. Conclusion: They use parts of both the Q1 and Q2 engine. :) Those weren't my words, but go back a few pages and u can see the entire "HL uses Q1 or Q2 engine" topic. :)

I'm just saying this bunnyhopping isnt cheap, cuz this is an arcade game, not some jedi-simulator. I've seen many discussions about "bunnyhopping". It always ends with one group liking it and one group disliking it... I'm in the group who likes it and there's nothing I can say to other people to persuade them to like it too. Nor is there a way to persuade me to dislike fastjumps. It's real hard to win such discussions in real life, and it's even harder to convince someone through an electronic message board.

And btw.. those who don't know about those jumps, they just roll around all the time. Now that also looks stupid and a jedi rolling around on the floor is quite hilarious, but people do everything just to move faster than running... My suggestion: just speed it all up, speed up the running and nobody'll be rolling around or jumping anymore. :)

twoshadows
04-09-2002, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by SD_ALLSTAR
Anyone else notice that this is possible in JK2? If your not from CS, bunny hopping is continuosly jumping. Somehow the physics in the game just keep getting your speed faster and faster. I can bunny hop accross entire lvls. You can use a no force jump bunny hop for a fast escape, or if you force jump off an uneven surface, you get a huge speed increase in that direction. You can chain these "super" force jumps together, and cross entire lvls in 3-4 jumps.


"bunny hopping" is actualy called Strafe Jumping. And it's not from CS, it's from the old Quake1 days...the real deal.

It is very possible in JO, until you get force jump.

FYI

Pvt_Dancer
04-09-2002, 01:05 AM
For all purposes it IS a jedi simulator though. People who are interested in this game are interested because of the atmosphere of the Star Wars universe.

I for one want SOME semblance of the "reality" of the series... not to see a bunch of people jumping around like a dancing carnival chicken on a hotplate. Neither do I want to see them rolling around all over the place.

Why can't you just be content with force speed... how fast do you REALLY need to go? Its not a racing sim after all... :rolleyes:

I must ammend by saying... you are of course perfectly justified in liking what you like but understand that I and other may not choose to play with bunny hoppers because they infringe on what WE think is fun about Jedi Knight. :)

Prox Kolari
04-09-2002, 01:12 AM
Originally posted by Pvt_Dancer
For all purposes it IS a jedi simulator though. People who are interested in this game are interested because of the atmosphere of the Star Wars universe.

Exactly. If you want to play Serious Sam, go play Serious Sam. Let's say in Medal of Honor MP you were somehow invincible when crouch-jumping. So every is now crouched and jumping, and looks like an idiot. Some would complain "come on, this is supposed to be WWII for God's sake," while others would say "but I'm doing it and it works! It's a tactic! It's in the game! This isn't really WWII!"

If that's the feeling, add lasers and flight to MOH. How about a gun that shoots lightsabers? Hell, it's just a game where the only thing that matters are frags, right?

I bought this game because I liked the idea of being a Jedi, cautious and exacting, not because I like chopping up as many people as I can at any cost, or tossing as many as I can into a pit. If you want mass melee bloodshed, play Rune.

Pvt_Dancer
04-09-2002, 01:26 AM
Prox you da man (did I just say that?). You explained what I meant better than I did... but don't you be bad mouthing Rune. :) I love Rune and know a lot of people that play that game with an honor code just as they would with Jedi Knight.

hughJ
04-09-2002, 01:31 AM
HL was originally slated to be released around the time of Quake2, it ended up coming out something like 10 months later, after being delayed as valve tends to do, this isn't anywhere near enough time to go and port everything over to a new Quake2 engine... especially considering all the engine modifications that were made..

many console commands in HL are identical to Quake, the demo file types are .dem (unlike .dm2 of Quake2).. I believe the model formats are also the same as Q1, rather than Q2..

from planethalflife: "Half-Life is based on the Quake(tm) engine by ID Software, with Valve's own enhancements to the engine, such as 16-bit and 24-bit color and MMX support, as well as being developed to take full advantage of 3dfx's Voodoo2. Half-Life is based on a whole new level of proprietary technology creating a extremely rich and original gaming experience"

FWB
04-09-2002, 01:32 AM
For all purposes it IS a jedi simulator though. People who are interested in this game are interested because of the atmosphere of the Star Wars universe.

I bought this game because I liked the idea of being a Jedi, cautious and exacting, not because I like chopping up as many people as I can at any cost, or tossing as many as I can into a pit. If you want mass melee bloodshed, play Rune.

Please, everyone pay attention to these two quotes because they put it perfectly. I play MOHAA too and I've got fed up with people going on about how "it is video games" and thus keep using the stupidly designed rockets all the time. Yes, in certain aspect they are, but they are also supposed to based in a specific "universe". What is the point in buying MOHAA and JO if they're all going to end up being the same game? Go and play Quake 3 if you want that rubbish. Some of us don't have much gaming time and thus like to enjoy what we have and it is getting really irritating having it ruined by those few (yes, few because not everyone is doing it) people who seem to have nothing better to do.

Why can't you just be content with force speed... how fast do you REALLY need to go? Its not a racing sim after all... :rolleyes:

For two reasons:

1)So they don't have to allocate points to force speed.
2)So they can screw us over in CTY and still out run us

Why can't people just play the game fairly and in the spirit that it was intended. If it isn't hackers, its people using screwed up models and if it isn't that they're manipulating the engine someway.

Mafia_Jabba
04-09-2002, 01:36 AM
-conclusion....Join a server w/ rules setup...thats the end i guess

Trienco
04-09-2002, 07:26 AM
getting away from bunny hops, but: isnt it also the developers fault if they ALLOW a mp-game to become another version of q3? there just shouldnt be enough rocket launchers and ammo on a map so everybody uses it.
when i heard about the flechette in jk2 i just laughed. it's absolutely un-starwars and still they dont have a choice. 'people expect shotguns and grenade launchers in a modern shooter' 'but it wont fit in the world' 'who cares, we need to please the mass market'.

i would just love to remove that stuff. as soon as the tools are out creating a mod that get's rid of all the anti-starwars stuff. but take away the flechette and rockets and sabers will be too strong.

though i still consider bunny hopping as exploiting a problem with the physics (i dont even know how that should work.. else i'd say 'normalize (part of) that damn vector and multiply with the right speed' *g*).

well, wait for patches and mods. might be wrong there, but i guess most serious players would rather some of the mods for hl and not hl-mp itself.

lionheart
04-09-2002, 07:55 AM
In my experience, Bunny Hopping ruins games. You get someone good at it, and not only are they impossible to catch, but almost impossible to shoot to.

This makes the teams games pointless as one person can play the game on their own, so making the team effort futile.

Bunny hoppers always defend this by saying it's skill. Maybe it is, assuming they have not just bound keys, but the point is, it is a flaw in the engine which is being exploited. That's exactly the same as someone finding a flaw which allows them to see through walls, give them quad damage etc. and those people are called CHEATS.
What's the difference, none except the other loop holes have been removed and continuous Bunny Hopping has not, so people who are unable to achieve results any other way, use the Bunny.

Another excuse is, it's in the game so it should be used. But it's not in the game, it's just something the developers can't or can't be bothered to fix.

I think either MOHAA or RTCW have a stamina bar. This effectively allows a certain amount of Bunnying, but runs out quickly and has side effects like not being able to run.

As time goes by, and new engines are used, I'm sure the developers will limit the Bunny Boys, but until then, we'll have to live with it.
Personally, if I'm playing on a server where the Bunny rules, I go elsewhere.

PS. I'm not talking here about just jumping everywhere, but about those who use it to give them more speed than the model is supposed to have. Thereby upsetting the balance of the game.

Scud
04-09-2002, 08:53 AM
You the hughj from Zt?

GRIMLOCK
04-09-2002, 09:12 AM
when did bunny hopping become CS related?
i always thaught its been around since Quake 1....

Wicket the Ewok
04-09-2002, 10:48 AM
I know it was possible in Team Fortress for Quake (And incidentally, quakeworld)

Yes, I remember seeing heavy weapon guys going faster than scouts normally could in QW TF. Quite strange.

I'm sure ID/Raven know about this and I'm sure if it was simple to fix it would have been fixed a long time ago.

Pvt_Dancer
04-09-2002, 12:07 PM
I take exception to what you said Trienco... those guns are just as much a part of the SW world as the lightsabre. First of all, the majority of the SW world AREN'T Jedi's. What the hell would all those other people do to get in their little bit of violence?:rolleyes:

Of course there are guns and plenty of them in SW. Probably a wide variety too. I mean, our culture has a wide vareity of guns, why wouldn't theirs?

TdM
04-09-2002, 12:39 PM
thank god one person in this forum called it strafe jumping thank you valdarious - I presume strafe jumping is the same thing... what kinda ridiculous word is bunny hopping....

you do that on bikes and it sounds stupid then... strafe jumping is the term yes all technical so nice...

umm... anyway can you do the signiture curve? strafe jump continuously in one direction in a big long curve then after about 5 or 6 jumps switch direction and strafe jump the opposite way - used to give you a massive leap in action quake 2 giving you a massive advantage....

hughJ
04-10-2002, 10:04 AM
"You the hughj from Zt?"

yes

Krak3n
04-10-2002, 10:10 AM
Straff jumping is more difficult in JKII becasue of force jump is automatic. You can do it's just u can only tap your jump buttin very lightly. For people who have been straff jumping since HF / CS then it shouldn't be hard to adapt. I for one have found it difficult but it can be done.

I've found straff jumping + force speed = you move very very VERY fast, a good get away on ctf_imperial :p.

Retro
04-10-2002, 10:13 AM
Your effectively encouraging cheating...BAN!:rolleyes:

VaderJM
04-10-2002, 10:22 AM
Use dark rage, force speed and bunny hop in CTF, then laugh at the people trying to catch you, all the while yelling "WHEEEEEEEEE"

UniKorn
04-10-2002, 11:10 AM
Since when is strafejumping cheating. Just because you are too lazy to learn it doesn't mean it is cheating. And those binding bunnyhopping to a key will never learn the decent trickjumps.

In elite force extremely beautiful moves were executed. Learn it if you want to be a pro.

Trienco
04-10-2002, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Pvt_Dancer
I take exception to what you said Trienco... those guns are just as much a part of the SW world as the lightsabre. First of all, the majority of the SW world AREN'T Jedi's. What the hell would all those other people do to get in their little bit of violence?:rolleyes:

Of course there are guns and plenty of them in SW. Probably a wide variety too. I mean, our culture has a wide vareity of guns, why wouldn't theirs?

i'm not talking about all the guns, but especially the flechette. matter of taste but to me it seems to much of a "every shooter has a shotgun"-decision. and of course you cant just stick with the guns you see in the movies. 5 versions of the same weapon would be quite boring just like it would be if all weapons would be blasters with just different damage and fire rate. but when was the last time you saw a shotgun in a sci-fi movie? (dont mention alien 4, they didnt have sci-fi like weapons at all *g*)

anyway, i guess it was about strafe jumping before i mentioned a couple other things *g*.

70-228
04-10-2002, 12:03 PM
Since when is strafejumping cheating. Pretty much since it's inception. It was originally a nasty little bug that people would use. Then it became somewhat mainstream in Q2. And they even kept it in for Q3 because that community liked it. Which was a shame because had this technique activated a Quad damage you can bet it would have been removed, speed was just on the cusp of acceptability.

CS removed it and marked it down as cheating. Kingpin accepted it and pretty much simultaneously self destructed because of it. Q3 accepts it and RTCW has coded against it via their stamina thingy (I think). Personally I always felt it a pointless little exploit that created a new "skill" for no real reason. I hope JK2 will see it as an exploit too and remove it so we can concentrate on more important skills like sabre use.

PS. If your spending your time practicing how to jump and strafe and swing your mouse around just so you can outrun other people in a game then you're spending far too much time online.

Kurgan
04-10-2002, 02:25 PM
If you want a perfect "jedi simulator" you won't find one.. anywhere. Games are meant to be played.. and when multiplayer comes in, the developers seek "balance" and "fun," and strict adherence to canon and fanboy rules takes a backseat. That's just a fact...

Also, I would highly encourage people who want JK2 to be a roleplaying game to read up on the following:

Star Wars Galaxies
Knights of the Old Republic


These are full fledged RPG's, where you can be Jedi, and they will immerse you in the Star Wars Universe better than JK2 ever could.
The shooter genre has its limitations, and I doubt it will ever live up to the standards set by the role-players we keep hearing from (remember, these are the people who call gun users names when they win, and complain about Stormtroopers using lightsabers).

JK2 is a first person shooter.. you know what that means? It means it isn't a Star Wars movie.. it's an action game, about blowing stuff up and shooting things. Sure, there's lightsaber action in there too, but the essence of the Dark Forces series has always been the first person shooter.

A discussion about strafe-running/jumping turns into a discussion about roleplaying in the Star Wars universe. ; )

Personally, I think that some people will never be satisfied. It just isn't the game developers job to disable every single feature he put into his game that doesn't fit into your view of what "Star Wars" should be, sorry to say.

And yes, we went through the whole Half Life engine thing... anyone who says that it's based solely on the Quake1 engine is only partly correct, regardless of what planethalflife says.
[/end rant]

reserved_name
04-10-2002, 02:30 PM
i use strafe jumping simply because i think the game speed is a bit slow and i want to move faster around maps because its more fun.. i would use rolling but after a roll i cant move at all for a short while which doesnt make it a very quick way to move around maps (obviously its meant for light saber fights).. but i dont really care.. if strafe jumping is there i use it, if it isnt i dont mind.. not a big deal

thrEEpaGe
04-10-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Prox Kolari
Me too. I'm also sick of all these cheap, cheap asses out there bunnyhop-draining, drain-gripping, or whatever other neat little exploits that are based on exploiting weird timing issues in the engine, and saying "but it's legit! I'm not cheating!" Cheap is always legit, but people dislike it. "But I'm winning."

Okay, great. If the point is to get the most kills, have fun. Let's turn the Star Wars universe into freaking Unreal Tournament. Next up, a voice patch with Yoda taunting "Die, b!+@#."


i would love to see a voice patch with yoda degrading me...hehe....that little bugger needs to take a shock rifle shot to the head.... hehe UT foeva..heh...

posternutbag9d9
04-10-2002, 03:00 PM
The solution is to play other gametypes besides ctf... WIth all the force/guns/sabers I really haven't felt the desire to do ctf in this game...Let the lamers stay in ctf...

MacNab13
04-10-2002, 03:25 PM
Bunny-hopping is a ridiculous notion that doesn't belong in any action game - except for one with rabbits maybe.

Bunny-hoppers are lamers... Period.:p

hughJ
04-10-2002, 03:39 PM
bunnyhopping is fine when it adds something to gameplay, without causing imbalances... quake contains no such qualities such as classes, force powers, or a realistic damage model where game balance can be hurt by it...

bunnyhopping is a technique, you can learn it, perfect it, and incorporate it into your game to where it falls along side explosion/rocket jumping, trimping/double jumping, and other such movement techniques... it allows for an expansion of gameplay elements that gives a sharper learning curve and extends the life and interest in the game due to deeper gameplay...

for those of you complaining about this simply due to the fact that you 'don't have the time to learn it' (or that 'people who do have the time, have no life') should really just go back to playing Atari.. if someone is willing to spend more time playing and learning a game than you, they deserve to be a better player...

however I will agree that bunnyhopping in JK2 is perhaps imbalancing and more exploitive, due to the fact that it negates the need for force speed in some ways (although you still gain from the increased attack rate, etc).. but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing in ALL games..

TheDarkSide
04-10-2002, 03:43 PM
Kurgan -

As an admin, I would think you'd be above using words like fanboy in a derogatory fashion?

Here's my point. Yes it's a FPS game, but what is it called? Bounty Hunter Outcast? Repeater Whore 2: Gunner Outcast? :)

No. It's Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast . And no matter how much some would like have to Q3 or UT with Star Wars textures, certain things about the SW universe are pretty much untouchable, such lightsabers being the primary weapon of a Jedi. Even the dark ones. We're not even talking about role-playing here, its just intrinsic to the SW universe..You have the ability to use the force you pretty much stick to the lightsaber unless you're flying around blowing up a Death Star or two.
A good point was brought up a few posts back about inserting something crazy like a gun that shoots lightsabers into Medal of Honor, or a crouch jump invulnerability exploit, using your logic of "balance" and "fun", how would you explain to people that it is ok when they complain "hey, these lightsaber wielding nazi's are tearing up the 82nd airborne, what gives?"

Would your response be to suspend your 'fanboy' fascination of what should have been going on in WW2 for the sake of a balanced and fun game? (Both pretty subjective terms).

As to the two games you mentioned, one of them is console only, and the other would be GREAT if it wasn't going to cost 14.95 a month to subscribe like every other MMRPG out there.

One last point, in all the pre-release, development hype in all the magazines, websites, etc, I don't recall ever seeing a phrase like "JK series is back, it's time for Jedi all over to fire up their trusty spam cannon and send the stormtroopers packing with their alt fire!" It's been about the saber ;)

TDS

FWB
04-10-2002, 03:53 PM
It is quite simple. You want to bunny-hop, go and play Quake. It looks completely out of place here. A jedi simulation this may not be, but there is no need to deliberately destroy the Star Wars atmosphere.

There seems to be a strong correlation between supporters of bunny-hopping and those who wish nothing more than to win, win, win in the games. Perhaps you need to learn to appreciate gaming as a fun activity, something that is not connected with "owning", "dominating" or "being a pro". Some very pathetic people here. :(

Just a note on the gun issue though. That is something I have little problem with and in fact encourage. It seems quite strange having so many Jedi running around. The "special ability" of them is lost.

TheDarkSide
04-10-2002, 03:59 PM
FWB - You may only have to wait until June when Unreal Tournament 2003 is slated to come out. I'd be willing to bet that quite a few of the win,win,win types will be hauling ass to DOMINATE in that game.

TDS

hughJ
04-10-2002, 03:59 PM
the thrill and challenge of learning something difficult, becoming good at it, and facing the new challenges that pop up in competition is what draws some people to playing FPS games also, that is the experience that makes it "fun" for them... what you may find fun about a game can differ completely from what others may feel, neither is right or wrong, just a difference of opinion and taste..

Neilinsky
04-10-2002, 04:03 PM
I played quake 3 a lot and strafe jumping made it much better. It made travelling around the map bareable because you didn't spend ages running from place to place. Furthermore, as in jedi knight especially with lightsabers, it doesn't help you when your actually fighting. It makes it more difficult. It is an effective method of escape but there are many others that people would use, It is not hard. The only issue is in cty when it does cause an imbalance. I don't use strafe jumping because with force jump its too difficult and to be honest i haven't seen many others using it either. On the whole i don't think its a major problem because cty is a load of crud anyway :), its difficult to do and not many people are doing it anyway.

thrEEpaGe
04-10-2002, 04:03 PM
oh, so lukey boy destroyed the death star by sheer will power? or with a light saber?

dark ones dont either?
i guess kyp durron killed millions without a supernova causing weapon...im sure that using a shotgun is COMPLETELY out of hte realm of star wars...after all, something that causes a star to go supernova is COMPLETELY reasonable, but a shotgun...pff...that is soo...stupid...

COME ON PEOPLE...by definition star wars is fantasy...why are we banning things out of our fantasy? i think this is a ridiculous notion...

by the way, if the name jedi outcast does denote 'supposed to be used without shotguns' why should we be able to use a disruptor? hmm?? that has been outlawed....a jedi wouldnt be breaking the law would he?

maybe we shouldnt use some force powers because they would portray negative connotations to those we are using them on...the golden rule should apply...

maybe we should take out the weapons altogether...hmm..not a bad idea.....well, maybe we shouldnt use the name outcast...it could make someone feel badly about themselves...hmm...maybe jedi is too strong of a word....after all, we dont want to make those who arent a jedi feel left out...and i also know a few people who arent knights...hmm....maybe we can just call this 'the politically correct game' hmm...some people arent politicians...how about the game!! that would work!!!

we could just run around and live in real life!!! it could be like the sims!! the star wars community would love it!!!

therefore, im not going to play jedi outcast..its too awful.....

CAT-scan
04-10-2002, 04:11 PM
If you want a perfect "jedi simulator" you won't find one.. anywhere. Games are meant to be played.. and when multiplayer comes in, the developers seek "balance" and "fun," and strict adherence to canon and fanboy rules takes a backseat. That's just a fact...

I'm sure Raven did their best to stay true to the SW universe. The game is supposed to revolve around a person being an Jedi, and the game is set in a preset universe who apparantly haven't invented any form of jumping boots or any other device capable of making people fly around like some damn monkey! And I quite frankly can't see neither "balance" nor "fun" in strafe jumping, much more the opposite is witnessed when you play a multiplayer game of JK2 today....so thats simply a silly comment....

I agree with you, games ARE meant to be played, but why on earth do we have to learn to exploit a bug in the game to be on par with other players? I can't really see who benefits from this. The fan of racing games? People with a need for speed perhaps? This just doesn't fit into the game.....

The shooter genre has its limitations

It sure has, and it's even possible to fix it....but there seems to be a group of people who opposes the hords of people who wants to remove bugs from the game....strange isn't it?

Personally, I think that some people will never be satisfied. It just isn't the game developers job to disable every single feature he put into his game that doesn't fit into your view of what "Star Wars" should be, sorry to say.

It doesn't matter what universe we are set in! Human beings DOES NOT HAVE THE ABILITY TO FLY!

FWB
04-10-2002, 04:17 PM
Originally posted by TheDarkSide
FWB - You may only have to wait until June when Unreal Tournament 2003 is slated to come out. I'd be willing to bet that quite a few of the win,win,win types will be hauling ass to DOMINATE in that game.

TDS

I hope so. OFP was great in that you never got those times. If you are concerned about losing or dying then it certainly wasn't the game for you. :)

Originally posted by hughJ
the thrill and challenge of learning something difficult, becoming good at it, and facing the new challenges that pop up in competition is what draws some people to playing FPS games also, that is the experience that makes it "fun" for them... what you may find fun about a game can differ completely from what others may feel, neither is right or wrong, just a difference of opinion and taste..

There's a difference between wanting to improve and going on about using techniques just to win or to get the most kills. These tend to be the same guys who will swear and curse if you kill them, then spend the rest the of the game trying to hunt you down. It is a typical mindset that I've come across online and I don't like playing with them. They're simply not fun, have no thought for others and are rather "unsportsmanlike".

Originally posted by thrEEpaGe
COME ON PEOPLE...by definition star wars is fantasy...why are we banning things out of our fantasy? i think this is a ridiculous notion...



Sorry, but did you not read half the posts people have made here? There are certain features in each genre. Using you're argument, we could put laser guns into Medal of Honour, or B-17s in Star Wars. Just because it is fantasy does not mean it doesn't have borders. There's a reason I own JO but none of Quake 1, 2 or 3, Unreal or Half-life. I didn't/don't care for their settings. I certainly don't recall anyone in Star Wars bunny-hoping.

thrEEpaGe
04-10-2002, 04:21 PM
riiiiight....

"the game is set in a preset universe who apparantly havent invented any form of jumping boots or any other device capable of making people fly around like some damn monkey! "

so i guess the force is all a hoax....

well, how much in the books OR movies do you hear people complaining about their mana running out? or that they are switching to a different saber stance? or that they cant force jump that high....

all star wars games cannot compare to the sheer openness and freedom offered by the movie force...while this isnt directly related to bunny hopping, it shows that no game can be perfect



find me a first person shooter that doesnt have exploits!!!!!!!!!!!

you are naive to think that this is the only problem with the game...

you are supposed to operate within the environment of the game, and strafe jumping is within this....everyone can do it!!!! it doesnt require skill!!!...what is the problem? it gives those people who 'know the trick' to have an advantage to those who havent played much multiplayer....which should happen already!

maybe we should take away aiming all together, because some people might not have as good aim as others....hm?

it offers dynamics, to stay ahead of the curve, to get better at people

again, try to find another game without exploits....

stop whining....

FWB
04-10-2002, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by thrEEpaGe

again, try to find another game without exploits....

stop whining....

Ohh, I see, just because other games have problems we shouldn't be voicing our discontent and asking if some of the issues can be fixed. Right, I get where you're coming from. We're supposed to keep our mouths shut if we're not quite happy with something. I wonder how many of the current game features have been taken from fan comments from the past ones. What about patches? The fans' voices play the major part in helping to design them.

If you don't like the compliants... well you can always stop reading.

you are supposed to operate within the environment of the game, and strafe jumping is within this....everyone can do it!!!! it doesnt require skill!!!...what is the problem? it gives those people who 'know the trick' to have an advantage to those who havent played much multiplayer....which should happen already!

Why should this happen? This isn't Quake.

You're also contradicting yourself here. Firstly you say it is part of the game then you suggest that its exploitation.

hughJ
04-10-2002, 04:31 PM
"There's a difference between wanting to improve and going on about using techniques just to win or to get the most kills. "

it's not the existence of the technique that causes you to win.. this isn't some aimbot (or whatever) that magically makes you a better player... it's not a technique that when suddenly learned turns you from a good player to a great player... it's just the fact that the majority of experienced players whom strive to improve and be the best they can tend to also be the ones whom are willing to learn new things wanting to challenge themselves...

"These tend to be the same guys who will swear and curse if you kill them, then spend the rest the of the game trying to hunt you down..." "...They're simply not fun, have no thought for others and are rather "unsportsmanlike". "

imo that's really too much of a personal judgement to be classifying "types" of people as 'this' or 'that' simply based on whether they use a technique or not...

not to jump on my elitist pedestal or anything, but most of the actually great players I know (in various games), really tend not to say anything at all when playing on public servers... public servers are a place to relax in a laid-back atmosphere, without any of the pressures that can go along with actual competition.. people whom complain like that on public servers tend to *think* they are better than they actually are (imo)..

FWB
04-10-2002, 04:36 PM
Originally posted by hughJ
it's not the existence of the technique that causes you to win.. this isn't some aimbot (or whatever) that magically makes you a better player... it's not a technique that when suddenly learned turns you from a good player to a great player... it's just the fact that the majority of experienced players whom strive to improve and be the best they can tend to also be the ones whom are willing to learn new things wanting to challenge themselves...

May I ask you this... if bunny hoping was specifically designed to be in the game what is the point of force speed? Combining the two does not make you go faster, but a bunny-hopper can out stay ahead of someone using speed. I think it quite clear that this was an oversight on the developers' part.

And this "best they can" comment you make... where does that end? The arm only skin that is in the engine can be accessed without cheating... is that then acceptable because I want to be "the best I can"? Or in MOHAA.... you could make yourself invisible by using a skin no-one else had... again, not a hack, or any kind of programming, a very simple "technique", should I be allowed to use it? I fail to see why people are incapable of playing a game along a normally. What is wrong with simply enjoying taking part? What about spawn killing? That'll get you many kills and sometimes is a great tactic if you want to stop the enemy from attacking your base. That is a technique, but is it alright? Or base raping? Did you ever play OFP? You'd get the odd cock who would fly over the enemy's base and bomb the crap out of all their vehicles so they would take 30 mins to reach your flag and the game would slow to a crawl for one side. 95% of servers I went on had unofficial rules that banned this.

imo that's really too much of a personal judgement to be classifying "types" of people as 'this' or 'that' simply based on whether they use a technique or not...

No, I simply said that they tend to hold specific mindsets. This is from my experience. Those who tend to use the bunny-hopping and the arm skin have been quite nasty. You ask them questions (not even asking them to stop), they start to go off at you on one. They also tend to be the ones writing "owned" and "I rule" at the end of rounds. Hell will freeze over before you see them complimenting someone on a good shot/move.

metsu
04-10-2002, 04:43 PM
can we please stop with the 'bunny-hopping' thing..
i'm not trying to be elitist or something like that but it does sound gay.

it was first called 'strafe jumping', and it should be still. because that's what you use, jump and strafe.

something got skewed on CS and the new comers, oh well.

JK2 issues, strafe jumping is easily countered.. in jk2 you can't just start it.. you have to jump a few time first to gain a lot of speed. just force pull when victim is airborn and the victim will have to start again.
this is without counting with absorb on though.

another flaw is that if you bump into something your speed is also reset and you have to start again.

and as stated previously, it's hard to do since force jumps goes off auto and resets your speed.

so you could still say absorb overpowers a bit. just like drain.. but drain is just cheese.. that needs to be fixed.

hughJ
04-10-2002, 04:46 PM
"May I ask you this... if bunny hoping was specifically designed to be in the game what is the point of force speed?"

-from one of my prior posts:
"however I will agree that bunnyhopping in JK2 is perhaps imbalancing and more exploitive, due to the fact that it negates the need for force speed in some ways (although you still gain from the increased attack rate, etc).. but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing in ALL games"

"Those who tend to use the bunny-hopping and the arm skin have been quite nasty"
-then I'll stand by my statement that those people who are like that, likely just think they are better than they actually are.. (an undeserved large ego)

Craggeh
04-10-2002, 04:48 PM
Kurgan == True

// eof

:D

Seriously though, I'm not gonna argue in strafe jumping's favour - it's been done and countered so much so it's nearly a moot point. I'm gonna say:

All you guys complaining strafe jumping offers an unfair advantage, and that force speed is rendered useless against a strafe jumping yaslamarlamarema... "that animal thing" carrier must have your heads screwed on backwards. Level three force speed combined with a force jump or roll and you're on ANY strafe jumper with no force powers.

I'm a strafe jumper whether I think it fits the SW universe or not - old habits die hard - playing any FPS after UT was a bit difficult, dodging across platforms and out of the way of rockets often met with an untimely demise O_o

Where was I? Oh yeah - strafe jumping - deal with it. It's there, and there's next to nothing you can do about it - as many people want it removed as want to keep it, so Raven would do better to keep it in and maintain a huge fanbase that play the game because they have to, than lose it and lose the quake 3 bandwagon jumpers.

That last sentence was AWFUL. Ah laziness, why do you always prevent me from sorting it out... :)

ME DONE :D

farmerBob
04-10-2002, 04:53 PM
I started a poll here:
http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=41849
Go vote so we can get an accurate assessment of the community.

I am personally against strafe-jumping. I am in perfect agreement with everything that 70-228 and TheDarkSide said, so I won't repeat their arguments.

Edit: fixed link

FWB
04-10-2002, 04:54 PM
Originally posted by hughJ
"May I ask you this... if bunny hoping was specifically designed to be in the game what is the point of force speed?"

-from one of my prior posts:
"however I will agree that bunnyhopping in JK2 is perhaps imbalancing and more exploitive, due to the fact that it negates the need for force speed in some ways (although you still gain from the increased attack rate, etc).. but that doesn't mean it's a bad thing in ALL games"

It's use in other games is of little concern to me. If Quake/Unreal players want to do it, fine, they can. I'm arguing for it not to be in JO, because a)I don't think the developers thought it was supposed to be used and b) it doesn't fit.

Would you care to respond to my comments spawnkilling other such techniques?

Originally posted by metsu
JK2 issues, strafe jumping is easily countered.. in jk2 you can't just start it.. you have to jump a few time first to gain a lot of speed. just force pull when victim is airborn and the victim will have to start again.
this is without counting with absorb on though.

You assume that they guy who has it is right next to you. What if it is CTY and you're trying to catch up with them? You can't.

another flaw is that if you bump into something your speed is also reset and you have to start again.

My heart bleeds for them. They shouldn't be doing it in the first place.

and as stated previously, it's hard to do since force jumps goes off auto and resets your speed.

I'd disagree. It took me all of 15 seconds to do it once I'd been told how to. Tapping, as opposed to holding, the jump button is not hard.

so you could still say absorb overpowers a bit. just like drain.. but drain is just cheese.. that needs to be fixed.


The force powers are another issue.

farmerBob
04-10-2002, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by Craggeh
so Raven would do better to keep it in and maintain a huge fanbase that want to play the game because they have to, than lose it and lose the quake 3 bandwagon jumpers.

...

That last sentence was AWFUL.


No offense... but if people bought this game JUST for the bunny hop... then I couldn't care less if they threaten to quit if Raven fixes the bug!

My sentences are awful too :P

Craggeh
04-10-2002, 05:12 PM
I didn't mean the people that bought it just for the strafe jump... do these people exist? :D I meant the people that bought it because it was "the latest thing", and stuck with it because they liked x and y. If X was strafe jumping, and Raven wrote it out, I could see a lot of people leaving - it REALLY changes gameplay.

I know I'd stick around, strafe jump or no - I'm addicted ^______^

hughJ
04-10-2002, 05:15 PM
"Would you care to respond to my comments spawnkilling other such techniques?"

a technique is something you can learn, improve at.. it's a personal-level skill, that doesn't need to be related to gameplay strategy, etc..

"The arm only skin that is in the engine can be accessed without cheating"
-not a technique

" in MOHAA.... you could make yourself invisible by using a skin no-one else had"
-not a technique

"What about spawn killing?"
-strategy, not technique

"base raping?"
-strategy also

"Did you ever play OFP? You'd get the odd cock who would fly over the enemy's base and bomb the crap out of..."
-strategy

most of what you listed there, really needs to be looked at on a per-game basis anyways...

one of my prior posts:
"...bunnyhopping..." [or any technique or ingame strategy] "...is fine when it adds something to gameplay, without causing imbalances..."

like I said, you need to take a good long look and see if you can rationalize the technique (or strategy for that matter) as being imbalancing (on a per-game basis)... most of the things you listed there, could very well be frowned upon in whatever respective games they can be in...

I'm not supporting 'cheap' strategy in general, as there is plenty of it in games that I do play competitively in, and are just as much frowned upon as comparable things can be in 'OFP'...

metsu
04-10-2002, 05:17 PM
i forgot about that capture the y-thing. but then again.. don't expect everything to be served in a platter. change your play style.. don't just all gang up at the flag and put some intercepters in mid field.
that's also another argument. ;)
-
one could also make the same argument about strong slashes, but hey.. you can do it too. all players have the same abilities(discounting force configurations).

FWB
04-10-2002, 05:17 PM
Originally posted by Craggeh
I didn't mean the people that bought it just for the strafe jump... do these people exist? :D I meant the people that bought it because it was "the latest thing", and stuck with it because they liked x and y. If X was strafe jumping, and Raven wrote it out, I could see a lot of people leaving - it REALLY changes gameplay.

I know I'd stick around, strafe jump or no - I'm addicted ^______^

Weird. Although I am complaining about it, I should make it clear that I don't find many people doing it... only a few. In fact, I've seen the exact opposite response with other players starting to get frustrated everytime someone does it.

If it "REALLY" changes the gameplay for you then perhaps you need to learn to play a bit better. ;)

Craggeh
04-10-2002, 05:21 PM
30 seconds in a game of CTF often means the difference between winning or losing O_o Strafe jumping makes that difference.

In FFA, you rarely need to strafe jump, so I don't think it's about me playing better at all ;) ;) ;)

:eek:

That has to be the best smilie EVER!

FWB
04-10-2002, 05:29 PM
Originally posted by hughJ
"Would you care to respond to my comments spawnkilling other such techniques?"

a technique is something you can learn, improve at.. it's a personal-level skill, that doesn't need to be related to gameplay strategy, etc..

Check out your dictionary. The two words are closely linked to the idea of an "art". Of course technique is related to gameplay strategy, for example, in this case, the need to move fast(er).

most of what you listed there, really needs to be looked at on a per-game basis anyways...

No offense, but then I don't understand why you're posting. We've established that it is imbalanced in JO. No one here is moaning about banning it from Quake, but from JO.

like I said, you need to take a good long look and see if you can rationalize the technique (or strategy for that matter) as being imbalancing (on a per-game basis)... most of the things you listed there, could very well be frowned upon in whatever respective games they can be in...

Well you're changing your stance now. Before you were discussing "being the best you can". That is something completely different from balance, which would imply everyone being on the same level.

I'm not supporting 'cheap' strategy in general, as there is plenty of it in games that I do play competitively in, and are just as much frowned upon as comparable things can be in 'OFP'...

You're argument was "this isn't some aimbot (or whatever) that magically makes you a better player". Spawnkilling, base raping etc, none of them are these. It has nothing to do with whether you hack into the game or not, but playing it in the right spirit. As we've established, the "bunny-hopping" (sorry I don't really care what the official name is :) ) makes speed pointless in this game. It is not a legit technique OR tactic.

FWB
04-10-2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Craggeh
30 seconds in a game of CTF often means the difference between winning or losing O_o Strafe jumping makes that difference.

Exactly. And we're back to where we started... the need to win. Tis a sad world we live in.

Fyunch Click
04-10-2002, 05:45 PM
Having read through the thread I wanted to post my small opinion:

In pubs, I don't do it. There's no need. There isn't enough organization on an opposing team usually to require it. I also view it as a cheap tactic on a pub. I'm on a pub to play for fun, generally you are playing cowboy unless you've got some clanmates on as well and it isn't about winning it's about playing for the heck of it.

In league play....it depends. If my force level is down, my force speed is about to run out and I'm low on shields and health I've got a 50/50 shot at doing it depending on how close I am to my flag stand. If it's a difference between a loss or a tie; or a tie and a win? Heck yeah I'll do it. The idea is to move up the ladder and defend your position. That's competitive play, you use the tools available to you: guns sabers, physics of the engine. You don't cheat, you don't script, you use the game and your skills.

If Raven takes it out or nerfs it, it's no big deal to me. I love the game with or without strafe jumping.
Geez, folks sure get heated about the smallest things on these forums. I'm not flaming here, but it is a game you are supposed to enjoy; not raise your blood pressure to feverish levels over.
:)

Have a day!

Craggeh
04-10-2002, 06:08 PM
FC has a very valid point - if it's a sad world we live in where the need to win comes above all else - how the heck are league games supposed to go?

[clan]player1: Hey! We made that cap over ten minutes of holding ground, getting backup in there and some develishly clever use of force push - what happened?

[clan]player2: A guy challenged me to a duel! Hella fun! :D :D :D

...

That's taking it to extremes, but the need to win is always primary priority in a team game - striving to win IS fun! For me, anyway ^_^

hughJ
04-10-2002, 06:12 PM
"No offense, but then I don't understand why you're posting"
-other games were brought up in reference to bunnyhopping.. speaking of it in poor light in other games in addition to JO.. I was merely pointing out that its case isn't the same in every game, as variables such as game balance change from game to game...

"Of course technique is related to gameplay strategy, for example, in this case, the need to move fast(er)."
-perhaps technique 'can' be related to strategy, but it doesn't need to always be..

"Well you're changing your stance now. Before you were discussing "being the best you can". That is something completely different from balance, which would imply everyone being on the same level"
-I haven't changed anything... from the very start in my posts, I have been speaking of technique being fine, as long as it doesn't upset game balance and ultimately hurt gameplay... gameplay balance is referring to whether or not the use of a certain technique upsets or bypasses the other built in elements of a game.. it is perfectly possible to have a competitive mindset with the urge to learn new things, without being win-at-all-costs to the point of not caring about game balance... bunnyhopping doesn't upset personal game balance (as anyone can do it if they learn how), but that doesn't opt it out from the issues of gameplay balance (which exist in JO)...

"You're argument was..."
-I was pointing out that there is some validity in learning new techniques, and that learning bunnyhopping doesn't simply yield immediate gains and make a person a better or more effective player... but that doesn't have to mean that someone willing to learn something new doesn't care about what's best for the game, they just perhaps have a different opinion of what the game is or should be (mainly due to what each person considers as 'fun', to them)

Spider AL
04-10-2002, 06:18 PM
Bunny-hopping... Frankly, who cares? No, I'll rephrase... who SHOULD care? It's been said before, but Whether it's in or out, it's one of a thousand tricks that players will use to increase their effectiveness. Removing strafe-jumping won't allow poor players to win, nor will it disadvantage better players. So... There. It'll make no difference to me.

Now to a point of contention:

Yes it's a FPS game, but what is it called? Bounty Hunter Outcast? Repeater Whore 2: Gunner Outcast? No. It's Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast

If you want to be so utterly picky about the title TDS, then I must say the key word here is not Jedi, but OUTCAST. The character the entire series of DF games is based around is not a normal Jedi, but a mercenary and covert operative who uses all weapons, not just the sabre.

Having said that, it should go without saying that the title of a game and the reality of a game, are two different things. I very much doubt residents of San Francisco or Japan bought "Quake" in the hope that it was a useful simulator to prepare them for their next earthshaker. Likewise, those who bought JO "just because it's Star Wars" seem rather silly to me. I mean, I would assume people would buy a game because they believe they may have fun actually playing it. Call me crazy.

If you want to go onto JO servers, sit around on platforms taking turns to duel each other with your sabres, merely because you can't be bothered to find a duel server that gives you a decent ping, that's fine, but please, don't command other players to conform to your view of what the game should be about. I bought the game, not because I want to pretend that I'm actually a Jedi Knight, but to play the game.

As for me, I've become very tired of reading insulting texts from people I kill with the - (Insert Gun Here.) - These folks seem to believe they're the pinnacle of sabreing skill, and about two minutes after each gun kill, when I meet them around a corner and run them through with a nice medium/strong stance while they flail around ineffectually because they haven't figured out how to change stances from "fast" yet, I feel a warm glow. Of course, they then respond with several stock phrases:

1. j00 LUCKAY!!!11
2. j00 H@X!!!11
3. h@ ha ha ah Th@T reD stance is s0 l@me!!!11
4. 0h w0w, n1ce k1ll lam0r, when I was... 3rrr... 0n teh ph0ne...

Or my personal favourite:

5. kick?? KCIK? WAT IS KCIK? j000 HAX!!11

And sometimes, they try to have you voted off the server, just to prove how mature they are.

It has to be said, that people who complain loudly about being shot, are usually people who are incapable of using the guns effectively. They're usually not very good with the sabre either, come to think of it. Guys, if you just want to pretend you're a Jedi, there are plenty of plastic lightsabres on the market.

:p

If however, you're really serious about winning games, (and why would you complain unless you wish to win?) an acceptance of the reality of the game is necessary. There are guns (astonishingly) on guns FFA servers. If you don't use them, chances are you'll lose. If you lose because you haven't bothered to learn how to use the guns, then it's your own fault! Don't blame the guy who just shot you. :rolleyes:

Actually I just realised I'm tired of the whole subject. Bedamned to those who bandy insulting terms about like "gunwh0re," because it's all sour grapes. My last ever word on the subject. :D

Pvt_Dancer
04-10-2002, 06:43 PM
-It boggles my mind that some people are SO ompatient that they can't stand to run across the map with force speed on or even at the regular pace.

-"Bunny hopping" you don't like the term because you're not supposed to. Its a form of insult. You call it strafe jumping... people who don't like it call it bunny hopping.

- "JK2 is a first person shooter.. you know what that means? It means it isn't a Star Wars movie.. it's an action game, about blowing stuff up and shooting things. Sure, there's lightsaber action in there too, but the essence of the Dark Forces series has always been the first person shooter. "

Those of us who are against strafe jumping are against it because we feel it ruins the ambience of the game. This IS a first person shooter but its a fps called JEDI KNIGHT. If you were to strafe jump in Quake I wouldn't give a crap because the game isnt based around a certain reality which JEDI KNIGHT is. The whole reason that the majority of us bought this game is because it is Star Wars affiliated not just because we wanted a new FPS. We don't want to role play anything but we certainly want the image of the Star Wars world to be upheld and a bunch of guys continually leaping about to move faster is, sadly, not part of the Star Wars image.
Now I personally can accept the fact that those of you who choose to use it do. I don't think that it should be in the game due to balance issues but regardless, if you want to use it, go right ahead. But don't be suprised if you are on a server and find yourself booted or that most of the other players have left... and don't chalk it up to the fact that you think we can't handle your 133t strafe-jumping skills... we just find your ridiculous antics irritating.

Craggeh
04-10-2002, 06:47 PM
Booted for strafe jumping?

The day that happens is the day I start to really question the servers I play on...

Pvt_Dancer
04-10-2002, 06:58 PM
Maybe you should.... if you came my game and started strafe-jumping... I MAY boot you. Depends how I'm feeling. People certainly don't HAVE to let you play if they don't want to.

As I said ... I think it looks ridiculous and I find it irritating. I might boot you. And don't misunderstand that as meaning I find it more difficult to kill you. I have no trouble killing bunny hoppers in Quake and I am sure the same will hold true for JKO.

You should question who you're playing with. Some people just aren't in it for the win but the fun and the atmosphere and the argument that strafe-jumping makes you a more effective player just doesn't hold water with those types because they are looking for fun and not kills.

In the Rune community there were a lot of people that I played with that were in it for a good solid fight and not for the kills... a lot of people. Even if they lost a fight they might rave about it because they had fun. That didn't make them any less skilled as players, it just means their priorities are in a different place.

Craggeh
04-10-2002, 07:04 PM
*sigh*

I don't see strafe jumping as a crazy advantage - it's habit. I don't strafe jump to gain the upper hand, I do it because it gets me around the map faster, which means I'm in the action more, which means ... *GASP* more FUN!

I love a close fight - win or lose I'll come out of it having enjoyed it - hindsight will also help me find flaws in how I was playing and next time maybe get that final jab/swipe/shot.

Generalisation... ¬¬

Hiteche5
04-10-2002, 07:15 PM
I think a big problem here is a misunderstanding. I think the majority here are not saying strafe-jumping is a hack or a cheat or even unfair. I think the majority of people are saying it looks silly. We want the game to look and feel diffrent from other First person shooters thus the desire to get rid of it. There is some players in here who love the Star Wars universe and play the game for that look and feel of Star Wars. They don't want the game to be like every other shooter. I personally don't care about it but I do feel as if "it's not quite right" to see someone jumping down the Bespin shafts jumping every second. I can do it and do it well but I tend to refrain because I want to preserve that semi-real feel to the game. It is a technique (not a hard one though) and it is probably something the developers do themselves. It is in every first-person shooter I can think of so I can't see them missing it. But I must say again don't people want to do something different than all the other First person shooters? Really if you insist on using guns and strafe jumping then how different is it from other ones? Let's face it the saber is underpowered compared to the alt-fire of almost every weapon so you can own with guns only but then it really it makes the game no different from the Quakes and UT and every other shooter. Sometimes I think people just jumped on Outcast to show off the skills in other shooters cause the know the common techniques. It's almost like jumping on newb servers. You know you will win with some of these techniques so why bother even coming here. Let's break the mold.

Holy Rage
04-10-2002, 07:37 PM
c:\tmp

Craggeh
04-10-2002, 07:37 PM
Really if you insist on using guns and strafe jumping then how different is it from other ones?I didn't see any force powers in quake or ut O_o;

I think that's why I enjoy Outcast so much - it's different and it has a large userbase. Mods that really pushed the boat out in other games were shunned most of the time O_o

Oh, and the fact that it's Star Wars related helps a tiny bit, too :D

Prox Kolari
04-10-2002, 08:24 PM
Right, we have Force powers, so instead of hopping around like some hardcore l33t d34thm4tchz0r in Quake, people hop around like some hardcore l33t d34thm4tchz0r in the Star Wars Universe. Just because they traded in rocket-whoring for grip-whoring doesn't make me feel "wow, STAR WARS!"

Craggeh
04-10-2002, 08:28 PM
¬¬

Grip whoring isn't nearly a problem... nor is rocket whoring in any other game O_o; Not that that's particularly on topic - moving swiftly on...

What would make you feel "WOW! STAR WARS!"? It seems like some people are never happy unless they're complaining... :rolleyes:

Jiro Kage
04-10-2002, 08:30 PM
There are two styles of speeding up using jumps. The first is bunny hopping, and that is pretty much relegated to Quake 1 engines. In this, You get a boost either from a conc grenade, a rocket, or some explosive, OR you can use a ramped surface to give you an extra edge of speed. Then, using ONLY the strafe left or right keys and the mouse (along with jump, duh) you hop along, using the mouse to steer you. You can get a ton more speed with this than you can with the Q3 engine. Bunny hopping is something the oldschoolers know of more.

Strafe jumping is the function in the Q3 engine where you can use that little boost of speed you get at a strafe and continue it while hopping. However, the Q3 engine (and JKII, consequently) have retained the ability to use an angled surface to catch speed. Find a hill, jump off the top with no force boost, and when you hit, jump again immediately. Notice how fast you get going - and how you can continue moving that fast as long as you hop.


The only time I use it is in FFA games with duels where I want to get to the action quickly. =] I feel the same about CTF as some of you - it just doesn't feel right to me in this game.

FWB
04-10-2002, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Craggeh
FC has a very valid point - if it's a sad world we live in where the need to win comes above all else - how the heck are league games supposed to go?

That's taking it to extremes, but the need to win is always primary priority in a team game - striving to win IS fun! For me, anyway ^_^

Yes, he does, but as he pointed out there is a difference between public and league games. If the league spirit is about win, win, win (and I haven't ever taken part in it so I don't really know) then that's fair enough, since the organisation is about victory. Public servers are something else though. Please don't bring that mentality into those areas, that is what I ask. Keep it in one place.

Originally posted by hughJ
-other games were brought up in reference to bunnyhopping.. speaking of it in poor light in other games in addition to JO.. I was merely pointing out that its case isn't the same in every game, as variables such as game balance change from game to game...

Ok, but my comments are directed at JO. as I said, I don't care what they do in Quake.

-perhaps technique 'can' be related to strategy, but it doesn't need to always be..

It is always related to it. What you do will be related to how you do it, and vv.

... bunnyhopping doesn't upset personal game balance (as anyone can do it if they learn how), but that doesn't opt it out from the issues of gameplay balance (which exist in JO)...

Of course it does in JO. It nulls the use of force speed.

-I was pointing out that there is some validity in learning new techniques...

I know that is what you said, but you started off trying to point out that bunny-hopping is not a hack. Well, as I said before, neither is spawnkilling and for some that is fun.

Originally posted by Spider AL
Bunny-hopping... Frankly, who cares? No, I'll rephrase... who SHOULD care? It's been said before, but Whether it's in or out, it's one of a thousand tricks that players will use to increase their effectiveness. Removing strafe-jumping won't allow poor players to win, nor will it disadvantage better players. So... There. It'll make no difference to me.

Perhaps you should play more CTY. That is where it seriously annoys me; being unable to catch up with someone who has stolen it because he's just as fast as you on speed.

Likewise, those who bought JO "just because it's Star Wars" seem rather silly to me. I mean, I would assume people would buy a game because they believe they may have fun actually playing it. Call me crazy.

Yes and no, but as we can see for many people here the Star Wars element is important... it certainly was for me. I don't own, or plan to own, Quake (1,2,3), Unreal or Half-life. If the game looked ****ty, then I wouldn;t have touched it, but there is no doubt in my mind that the Star Wars theme drew man, many people.

but please, don't command other players to conform to your view of what the game should be about. [i]

That's the problem, because I, and others, when experiencing some guy bunny-hopping have visions of Quake being "forced" upon me. The argument goes both ways. Ignore the issue of whether you think it should be in the game, but whether bunnyhopping is part of the Star Wars universe. Then your next question is whether you think the game should try and conform to that universe.

As for me, I've become very tired of reading insulting texts from people I kill with the - (Insert Gun Here.) -

Well you have my support here. There is more to Star Wars than sabres and I do enjoy using the guns. I also enjoying battling, with my sabre, gunners. As a child I never wanted to be a Jedi anyway. I was always for those Stormtroopers. :)

Guns should be easier to play with anyway. It should take some skill for a Jedi to be wielded in battle so well that s/he can be used against all gunners, but once at that level they should be a mighty force. From one of the e-mail replies from Raven I've seen we might get this with the banning of force powers for gunners.

Dark_One
04-10-2002, 08:44 PM
Don't flame me because i want to know/learn this but how do you bunnyhop? Is it running forward + jumping and the second you hit the ground you tap the jump key again and again and again?

d3vin
04-10-2002, 09:05 PM
The question of having strafe jumping in Jk2:JO should be answered fairly easily by Raven.

I would just like to know if they want to keep it or not, so i can decide if I want to learn to do it.

Fyunch Click
04-10-2002, 09:08 PM
Public servers, to my way of thinking, and this comes from my background in Training and teaching Tribes/Clans are filled with a wide variety of players. Some good, some "elite" some brand new, just opened the box, and many average players. My goal is to have fun, and by doing so to allow the other people to have fun on a server as well. (I am speaking in the context of the team based modes of play)

In Tribes 2 this meant no baserape with small teams on public servers and no turtling with the flag. It isn't a situation where you can mount a coordinated offense and defense. You are lucky if you can get 2-3 people to even acknowledge your presence.

The trick is to guage the other players on the server and their relative strengths and weaknesses. If they are ALL wearing clan tags and ALL strafe-jumping then by all means, do it. If there are a bunch of people named: padawan, chances are the only thing you'll do is piss off some newcomers to the game and turn them off to a gametype that you like.

In the end it's about being observant and polite. If you want to foster a community and help newcomers to become average players that will stick around, you answer questions, you listen to them, point out mistakes in a polite manner, teach them rules of ettiquette.

Strafe-jumping isn't wrong in and of itself. It is the use of it in specific situations that seems to annoy people. It has it's place, the trick is to figure out the proper time and place for it.
By my book, public servers would not be the place for it.

TheDarkSide
04-10-2002, 09:33 PM
Excellent post Fyunch.

It's about the entire community, not *just* win at all costs.

Retro
04-11-2002, 12:26 AM
Just something I want to say.

How do you feel it is not a cheat? It exploits a bug in the physics of the engine. A cheat like "wallhack" exploits a bug by using a differen't file which allows you to see through, you people seem to think that because it's a bug and not a program, it's ok to explot.

Lets, just for kicks say there WAS an invincibility crouch-jump bug, would people use it? You better believe people would, because it would give them a huge advantage, not being able to die. This gives an advantage of speed, if you dont want to take so long to run (which really is NOT that far, and if your so impatient, well put points into force speed instead of being an ******* and cheating.)

It really astounds me at how ignorant people can be, ignorant to the fact that it's BUG ABUSE, the SAME as a cheat, you use it so you get that many more points into other things so you dont need to use force speed?

Hows that right? The whole point of the force system is so people have to pick and choose, you dont want to wait to get to a battle? You put those points into force speed, instead of putting them into grip/drain. You know it's wrong, yet you do it anyways, I just cant express how much it astounds me.

I know I'll probably get what I've said used against me, and probably have contridicted my self, but I'm too lazy to check it. This is my opinion, and I'd really like someone to change my opinion so I can see it from your point of view.

Spider AL
04-11-2002, 12:52 AM
TDS:

Perhaps you should play more CTY. That is where it seriously annoys me; being unable to catch up with someone who has stolen it because he's just as fast as you on speed.

Why does it annoy you? I presume it's because you want to win. If you want to win, bunny-hop right on after him, until the day Raven decides to remove it. Perhaps you have difficulty learning the bunny-hop? If not, it must be a "moral" thing. I may point out, nowhere in the Star Wars universe do the words "Thou shalt not Bunny-Hop" appear. If you don't like bunny-hopping then by all means, petition Raven to remove it... but if you want to win your CTY matches in the meantime, perhaps you should bunny-hop.

And I play quite enough CTY thank you. Perhaps you should play more Quake. :p

but as we can see for many people here the Star Wars element is important... it certainly was for me

That's your decision, your prerogative. However, don't be so disdainful of people who actually want to play the game as opposed to your preferred sort of person, the Jedi-wannabe.

I don't own, or plan to own, Quake (1,2,3), Unreal or Half-life.

That's your loss. They're all uniquely interesting games. Unreal and HL especially have enjoyable single-player campaigns too. It strikes me that you appear closed-minded on the subject of First Person Shooters. Again, your loss.

Ignore the issue of whether you think it should be in the game, but whether bunnyhopping is part of the Star Wars universe.

I personally have no interest as to whether it is included in the game, or not. It's entirely irrelevant to me.

As to whether hopping is part of the SW universe, I might say for a start, that the "force crystals" mentioned in JO, and popularised throughout the SW literary community, are tenuous at best, as the Lucasian canon does not focus on the inner workings of lightsabres, and at no point suggests that the Force powers the sabres. JK and JO are full of little oddities that are arguably not part of the SW canon. I for one don't care. I don't care whether Stormtroopers are clones, or whether Vader's gauntlets are "supar powar glove0rz." I find the game fun. Fun, being the most important aspect of a game. By picking out aspects you wish to change, you merely tell me that you're not happy with the game as a whole. In which case, you'll be here, picking at loose threads (like bunny-hopping) for all eternity, because there will ALWAYS be oddities in the game's engine that fast-learning players will use to their advantage. I think there are better uses for one's time, like actually playing the game, and having fun playing it, while accepting any little foibles it thrusts upon you as part of the game. By all means, if bunny-hopping is ruining your game, petition Raven to remove it. But you must draw the line somewhere. You can't petition them to remove... say... the Strong sabre stance.

And some people would like to, you know.

Then your next question is whether you think the game should try and conform to that universe.

Actually, no, that question is so nonsensical it beggars belief.

we might get this with the banning of force powers for gunners.

Ah, my next question has arrived: why would anyone wish gun-users to be disempowered, unless they dislike the practice of gun-using? What a ludicrous idea that truly is, penalising players who actually want to play the mode the server is set to play.

Frankly, those who complain about so-called "imbalances" between guns and sabres merely wish for their particular force config and playing style, to be the most powerful. Sabreists want the lightsabre to be uber-powerful. Fast stance users want the fast stance to be uber-powerful. Force drain users want Force Drain to be uber-powerful, I mean, good lord! It's a game! Play the game! Make mods for the game if you must, but don't force your view of what the game should be like onto others! Let's make no mistake, you're talking about changing the game ITSELF, seemingly just to spite the gunners, and this barely TWO WEEKS after the official release.

I say, LEARN the most powerful config, that works best against the most opponents, and use it. Anything else is laziness and malevolent apathy. Plastic sabres ahoy.

CaptainPOE
04-11-2002, 01:06 AM
I noticed this in a CTY game the other day on Warring Factions. I was sniping defensively and was at the spot where the disruptor rifle spawns. Most people didn't make it to the flag with me up their. And if they did they didn't bother to kill me. So after they started running back it was a very easy shot in the back to finish them off. Since after you get the flag their is no force power whatsoever that you can use its a real easy target. So one time a group comes up and then I get the group to 1 and the last one had Force speed on when he got the Yaslarmi. And then he started bunny hoppying across the map and was incredibly hard to hit and at first I swore it was force speed because he was moving just as fast as he was before he got the Yaslarmi. It kinda reminds me of skiing back in Tribes 1 :) Also when playing CTY it is extremly easy to bunny hop after you have taken the Yaslarmi because their is no force usage. Therefore you don't risk force jumping instead of regular jumping and screwing your momentum up. Not too many people can do this but its not TOO hard to kill them, just have to have a little better aim :)

Pvt_Dancer
04-11-2002, 02:58 AM
If I'm not mistaken strafe-jumping was originally a bug way back when but was intentionally left in Quake 3 because it had become a standard and a favorite by the time quake three came out. But don't mistake this game for Q3. Just because it shares its engine doesn't mean its the same game or should be treated the same. In fact, I long for an FPS that differs itself from the norm... one with some atmosphere, a story or a background and this game should be just that. Not just another FPS.

I don't want to be a jedi and I don't want to roleplay... but being able to suspend a little disbelief for a little while and immerse myself in another environment is just what I want to do. And thats not easily accomplished when some guy hip hops across the map like he's got Flubber™ on his boots.

-"but don't force your view of what the game should be like onto others!" -Spider Al
Spider, I know you've said that you don't care if strafe-jumping is in or out but would you be upset if people kicked you from a game or all left as soon as you came in and started strafe-jumping? Maybe... maybe not but I know that there would be more than one person to come here and post about how all the big losers left because he/she was strafe-jumping. And yet, the people who refuse to play with him/her are just trying to play the game the way they want it to be played. They don't want strafe-jumping FORCED on them either. I personally don't give a crap if people do it. It all depends on my mood. On the whole I would prefer it wasn't there but if its going to upset so many people to have it removed... if they simply can't do without it in one game... then they should expect people who don't want to deal with it to not play with them when they use it. And that should be the end of it.

Agree to disagree. Perhaps a codeword... if you don't want people strafe-jumping on your server/in your game then add NSJ (no strafe-jump) at the end of the server name or something we can all agree on. Compromise anyone? I certainly hope some of us know how to do it.... :rolleyes:

TheDarkSide
04-11-2002, 03:16 AM
I feel compelled to reply, since you put me as the subject of your post, and then proceeded to quote someone else for the entire thing :)

I see where you're coming from on this issue. It's pretty much a matter of how "little" you think a particular oddity is, and that will be directly proportional to how much you either like or could care less about the star wars universe. The whole Dark Forces series is pretty unique as far as FPS'es go. Neither Quake, UT nor even HL took place in a setting that was pretty much pre-defined. No where in the forums discussing the storylines or mods or skins of those games will you ever see the word 'canon' even brought up.

Picture this: you're playing the infinite reincarnation of the venerable football series Madden 2003 on your PS2. Funny thing is though there's an exploit in the game that lets you throw a ball 100 yds when your QB jumps to the side and pump fakes before throwing. Is this a problem? Depends on how much you care. To someone who is primarily a baseball fan (sorry for the American slant) and could care less about football, probably not. They're just playing the game to have fun. To someone whose idea of fun is to stay within the realm of possibility for that environment, it is a problem. That's kind of what we have here.

Note that you can want things to 'jive' with SW movies without being a closed minded fanboy. The appropriate term I think that is escaping us all is "continuity". You can have continuity without incorporating every small detail of an environment, in this case the world of Star Wars. But elements like bunny-hopping totally break that continuity.

************************************************** *
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Then your next question is whether you think the game should try and conform to that universe.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Actually, no, that question is so nonsensical it beggars belief.



***********************************
Actually, that question isn't so nonsensical. Please enlighten us as to why a game set in a particular setting doesn't have to adhere to that setting at all? Does a football game not have to take place on a football field? If a basketball video game comes out, and it takes place on a baseball field (or cricket field for the European crowd), I guess other people can't complain as long as you find it fun, heh?

TDS

70-228
04-11-2002, 06:18 AM
My favourite goofy pro bunny argument above is the 'If they bunny hop away from then bunny after them' line. This one amuses me immensely. Kind of like the best way to combat an aimbot user is to get an aimbot. Duh duh duh.

Now I've played pretty much every FPS game there is. And I think we all want JK2 to be different. ---Quoting "That's your decision, your prerogative. However, don't be so disdainful of people who actually want to play the game as opposed to your preferred sort of person, the Jedi-wannabe".---- It's pretty clear you disdain those people that are jedi-wannabe's so don't be surprised when they don't exactly want to bend over backwards in bringing these questionable "skills" (looks at the bind to do it and thinks "skill"???) into a game I think is fair to say was designed for them.

I really don't want to see what happened to games that allowed this to happen to JK2. It looks like it has a bright future with the next patch as many of my complaints are seeming to be corrected.

PS. Jiro Kage I don't know where you got the idea that bunny hopping is only bunny hopping if started with a rocket powered speed up. It's always just been the another term for strafe jumping. And a usefull one too as it's clearer to describe what it does than how to do it.

Niten Ryu
04-11-2002, 07:32 AM
Interesting discussion... again ;)
I've seen these pop-up so many times after quake(world). My take: Originally bunnyhopping was same kind of bug as rocket/granade/conc jumping. It abuses physics engine but since it's been around so long, it's been evolved to "feature" status in quake based games.

I've always sucked in bunnyhopping but I still like it in games. It requres skill to use and if player is skilled enough to use it, more power to him. Btw, can you get even higher speeds in JK2 when you bunnyhop while speed power is on and gain even higher speeds ?

I think I played against HughJ (in TFC) when he was in NULL... I bet he rememebers times when HWs moved as fast as Scouts in TF :naughty:
Maybe that was bit too much (some still argue) and maybe Devs could neft bunnyhopping little so you couldn't get same advantage as speed power. I don't know, I have played too few MP matches and I haven't even seen bunnyhopping in action in JK2.

Craggeh
04-11-2002, 08:42 AM
¬¬

Comparing JK2 to a football... let me rephrase that and retain my English identity ^_^, an "American Fotball" game just doesn't work.

Football is reality - we... well, you can see it day in and day out, know exactly what happens where, when and how and what doesn't happen... ever.

Star Wars is science fiction, it was created in a chap's mind for goodness sake - it isn't real, you can't say what would or wouldn't happen - if George Lucas wished it everyone could be strafe jumping all over in Episode 3... not that it's gonna happen, but I'm sure you get the point.

If you really wanted it to be super "realistic", I'm sure you'd argue with a big bunch of jedi knights diving into an arena and slogging it out to see who could get the most points - or teams of lightsaber wielding stormtroopers running back and forth trying to nab a blue flag.

*sigh* - I didn't come to the forums to argue about guns / grip users / strafe jumping...

*zips his mouth up on the subject*

VaderJM
04-11-2002, 09:15 AM
I've agreed with pretty much everything SpiderAL has said, but I'm gonna state my opinion also.

The star wars fanboys are the ones that are complaining the most. They heard the hype, they eagerly awaited the release, and when they finally got their hands on it and started playing MP a revelation struck them! "I suck!" Instead of training with other FPS, honing your skills so you could win, you were too busy watching the trilogy over and over shouting "Use the force Luke!"

They are the ones who think they deserve to win just cause they only use a lightsaber.

Instead of adapting to tactics deemed "cheap", they started whining. I've whined about a bunch of things, but I stopped once I realized, they're just playing the game, better than me, so they're not the problem, I am.

Many of these "jedi-wannabes" would be content with everyone joining a server then sitting there with our thumbs up our butts going "Well...wha...well I can't do that...a real jedi wouldn't do that."

Obi-Cyph
04-11-2002, 09:37 AM
I may point out, nowhere in the Star Wars universe do the words "Thou shalt not Bunny-Hop" appear.

Of course, nowhere in the Star Wars universe does it make any reference to jumping around like an idiot which makes you move faster than normal.

Perhaps you should play more CTY. That is where it seriously annoys me; being unable to catch up with someone who has stolen it because he's just as fast as you on speed.

I agree with that, people bunny hopping once they've got the Ysalamiri is annoying as hell, especially when they get up to if not faster than the speed of your force run.

Why does it annoy you? I presume it's because you want to win. If you want to win, bunny-hop right on after him, until the day Raven decides to remove it.

Yeah 'bunny-hop right on after him', yep, that's all well and good to say, but when you get level 1 force jump by default, you can't bunny hop as effectively as you can when you get the ysalamiri. When you've got the ysalamiri, you don't have to worry about your force jumping at all, which will happen if you hold space bar just a bit too long.

Therefore, people with ysalamiri who bunny hop faster than people who can force run, and are able to do it easier than people who can still accidentally force jump, have a greater advantage in CTY games.

Bunny hopping does not suit this game (and yes, I know how to bunny hop perfectly fine thank you, I did play quake 3 and rocket arena, so its kind of a known skill), or the style of play.

FWB
04-11-2002, 09:55 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL

Why does it annoy you? I presume it's because you want to win.

Please don't put words in my mouth. It annoys me because a) I believe it is cheating and b) it is not part of the Star Wars "spirit". I am certainly not a Star Wars fan-boy. But you'd know if you'd read my previous posts.

Perhaps you have difficulty learning the bunny-hop?

If you read my posts you'd see that I've already stated how easy it is to pick up. I can do it with little problem, but I don't.

but if you want to win your CTY matches in the meantime, perhaps you should bunny-hop.

This is the problem we have. You're one of the win, win, win mindset. You have to appreciate that there are people who play for fun and to be involved in a limited, but as close to as possible, Star Wars universe. I have no problem losing, perhaps you should learn to accept that too.

That's your decision, your prerogative. However, don't be so disdainful of people who actually want to play the game as opposed to your preferred sort of person, the Jedi-wannabe.

I've played Unreal and all the Quakes and they didn't appeal to me... quite simple. And where have I been disdainful? You sure enjoy putting words in my mouth. I simply said I have no interest as to what happens in those games.

As for the Jedi-wannabe comment.... again, you don't seem to be reading my posts. I suggest you back and have a look at what I've actually said. :rolleyes:

By picking out aspects you wish to change, you merely tell me that you're not happy with the game as a whole.

Please stop putting words in my mouth. I've never said that. The game is great fun, I am merely arguing against a certain feature which I see as a bug.

In which case, you'll be here, picking at loose threads (like bunny-hopping) for all eternity, because there will ALWAYS be oddities in the game's engine that fast-learning players will use to their advantage. I think there are better uses for one's time, like actually playing the game, and having fun playing it, while accepting any little foibles it thrusts upon you as part of the game.

lol. Ohhh the irony. Just look at what you've said and then realise what you've done.

By all means, if bunny-hopping is ruining your game, petition Raven to remove it. But you must draw the line somewhere. You can't petition them to remove... say... the Strong sabre stance.

And some people would like to, you know.

That's their business, not mine. I can appreciate it if they come up with a good reason, but simply arguing it, e.g. bunny-hopping here, is there and thus is ok is a weak argument.

Actually, no, that question is so nonsensical it beggars belief.

:rolleyes: No point in answering this.

Frankly, those who complain about so-called "imbalances" between guns and sabres merely wish for their particular force config and playing style, to be the most powerful.

Do you not see the irony in your posts? By simply defending such settings you are yourself imposing your values upon others. Your arguing that it is alright to distort the Star Wars universe. These games are built on players' responses. Perhaps you should be posting this in every thread requesting changes telling people to shut up... I hope you will. If we don't like something then we voice our concerns.

I say, LEARN the most powerful config, that works best against the most opponents, and use it.

Sigh.... it is a sad world we live in with so many obsessed with winning.

Football is reality - we... well, you can see it day in and day out, know exactly what happens where, when and how and what doesn't happen... ever.

Well that's the end of fantasy as we know it. Even imagined worlds have rules and laws and that is what makes them so interesting. I guess using your argument it is no problem having laser guns in Lord of the Rings then.

Instead of training with other FPS, honing your skills so you could win, you were too busy watching the trilogy over and over shouting "Use the force Luke!"

Actually I was too busy outside enjoying the sunshine to focus my time on video games "honing my skills". ;)

VaderJM
04-11-2002, 10:00 AM
Damn FWB, like Joel Siegel, you're a quote *****, though not in the same meaning. You just like picking apart everything someone says.

FWB
04-11-2002, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by VaderJM
Damn FWB, like Joel Siegel, you're a quote *****, though not in the same meaning. You just like picking apart everything someone says.

It helps people recall what I'm replying to. I've had too many experiences where people keep contradicting themselves or get mightly confused at what is said. It seems Spider AL has got lost part of the way. Apart from which, it is the way one debates. If you don't like the format I advise you stay away from political forums. You'll be in for a nasty shock.

Besides which, you wrote the paragraph, not me.

Craggeh
04-11-2002, 10:26 AM
...but when you get level 1 force jump by default, you can't bunny hop as effectively as you can when you get the ysalamiri. When you've got the ysalamiri, you don't have to worry about your force jumping at all, which will happen if you hold space bar just a bit too long.

Therefore, people with ysalamiri who bunny hop faster than people who can force run, and are able to do it easier than people who can still accidentally force jump, have a greater advantage in CTY games...

...yes, I know how to bunny hop perfectly fine thank you...Hah. This is complete rubbish :D If you knew how to strafe jump perfectly fine, you wouldn't be taking off into a level one force jump at all - once you've mastered even the basic strafe jump it's childsplay to string them into a chain without force jumping. As for not being able to keep up with the ysalamiri runner with force run enabled...

Are you crazy? A force jump whilst force running is all you'll ever need to catch one of those guys O.o some people need to work on their skills before complaining ^_^

VaderJM
04-11-2002, 10:36 AM
I would never go to a political forum. That is completely futile.

Another, kind of unrelated thing, how come whenever someone doesn't win they say "Well, I'm just trying to have fun, unlike you, the win at all costs type." As far as I know, the title of the game is Jedi outcast, not Jedi loser (but enjoys it anyway). Winning is always gonna be fun.

Pvt_Dancer
04-11-2002, 10:57 AM
Oh jeez! First of all, strafe jumping doesn't make you "win." It only makes you faster... not invincible. Not ONE of us has complained about how we lose all the time. We have had issues with it causing an imbalance in the game and that its taking its toll on the atmosphere of the game but not that we continually lose to you.
I find your logic to be extremely assumptive. Complaint=loser? WhatEVER dude.

VaderJM
04-11-2002, 11:28 AM
I said it was unrelated sort of.

Besides, I don't even bunnyhop, haven't figured out how to do it yet, and doubt I'd use it if I could.

Spider AL
04-11-2002, 12:03 PM
Yeah 'bunny-hop right on after him', yep, that's all well and good to say, but when you get level 1 force jump by default, you can't bunny hop as effectively

This is incorrect. Bunny-hopping is a technique people use regardless of force level, all it takes is a little practice.

It annoys me because a) I believe it is cheating and b) it is not part of the Star Wars "spirit". I am certainly not a Star Wars fan-boy. But you'd know if you'd read my previous posts.

Cheating, aka hacking, is the manipulation of a game's files/code to give an advantage to the cheater. Strafe-Jumping is a bug exploit. The fact that you can even confuse the two is laughable. :rolleyes: Bugs can be exploited by everyone without altering the game in any way.

Not that I use bunny-hopping myself, as I've said before, it's irrelevant to me.

And, with your insistance that JO conform to your idea of what "Star wars should be about," you are making it clear exactly how much of a "fanboy" you are.

I can do it with little problem, but I don't.

Then that's your problem mate. :rolleyes:

This is the problem we have. You're one of the win, win, win mindset.

Oh please, you wouldn't even BE here complaining about bunny-hopping if you were only in it for the gameplay. No, you're here ranting about how evil it is, because you want to win, but can't, and bunny-hopping is your excuse of the day.

lol. Ohhh the irony.

I don't think you truly understand the definition of irony, my friend. And no, you can't extract it from any Alanis Morissette songs. :rolleyes:

No point in answering this.

Good, since it wasn't a question, but a statement. Now here's a question you haven't answered, regarding your stance on gun-users. Do you wish gun-users to be disempowered by having their Force removed in FFAs? It certainly seemed that way in your previous post.

By simply defending such settings you are yourself imposing your values upon others.

Defending what "settings" exactly? Are you referring to the bunny-hopping? As I recall, I stated twice that "It's irrelevant to me." It's irrelevant to me, because I have better things to do than to complain about it. And people who do complain about it, have ulterior motives for doing so.

What I have defended, and do defend, is the right of those who go onto a FF guns FFA server to use both Force powers and guns.

Your arguing that it is alright to distort the Star Wars universe.

lol, unlike you my primary concern for the game is not whether Jedi Outcast "conforms to the Star Wars universe." :rolleyes: Now you're really sounding like a fanboy.

Sigh.... it is a sad world we live in with so many obsessed with winning.

Perhaps you're unaware that Jedi Outcast is... Shock horror - a game. Games are fun, but they also have winners and losers. Without a goal to accomplish, a game is no longer a game. And why do people want to win? Because winning is the goal of the game. Whoever reaches that goal first, gets a buzz.

Yes, I enjoy winning, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't. But somehow, I don't think I'm the one obsessed with it... Those who complain about the way in which others win a game, do so because they wished to win in his/her stead, and become obsessed.

If all you wanted out of Jedi Outcast was the opportunity to pretend to be a Jedi, you should be happy as a clam from the moment you start the game to the moment you end it, regardless of who wins. You are not happy as a clam however, so by a logical deduction, you wished to win. As I said previously, people who are so vehement about such bugs, tend to be the ones who cry the most sour grapes while losing.

Actually I was too busy outside enjoying the sunshine to focus my time on video games "honing my skills".

I find this on the one hand perilously hard to believe, and on the other, merely a statement of the obvious.

It's obvious to me that you have neither the interest in, nor the dedication to JO to become one of the so called "elite." And that would be fine, if you weren't so bitter. However, your obsessive insistance that JO conform rigidly to the alleged rules of the Star Wars universe, show a level of commitment to Star Wars that makes the "busy outside" and "enjoying the sunshine" portions a little too hard to stomach.

However if we take it on face value, there remains only one thing to say:

Return to your enjoyment of the sunshine. Outside. :p

Spider AL
--

PS:
As far as I know, the title of the game is Jedi outcast, not Jedi loser (but enjoys it anyway). Winning is always gonna be fun.

Absolutely priceless Vader, priceless. :D

Raith
04-11-2002, 12:10 PM
OMG that is the funniest thing I have ever heard. Bug Exploitation is cheating, full stop! The isnt any argument that you could put up to promote your points of view.

Take the Grenade Cheat in RtCW for example. That is a Bug Exploit and anyone implemementing this bug is CHEATING.

TheDarkSide
04-11-2002, 12:26 PM
The star wars fanboys are the ones that are complaining the most. They heard the hype, they eagerly awaited the release, and when they finally got their hands on it and started playing MP a revelation struck them! "I suck!"

Hahaha.yeahhhh. What is a fanboy anyways? Sounds sexist to me. Like most others who picked up this game I like FPS's AND SW. Sorry to burst your bubble but I don't suck. Yes I prefer using the saber, and I'm fairly good at it. I use guns too, and I'm pretty good at that too (9 years of FPS playing tends to have that affect on you)

"When I finally got my hands on it", the revelation that struck me was the imbalance between the guns and the saber, not that I suck. Winning with a saber is hard (mostly) and winning with guns is not (mostly). To SpiderAl and you VaderJM, this is perfectly acceptable (along with other FPS issues like bunny hopping/strafe-jumping) because to you, this game is a FPS first and a game based in a certain setting second. To a good chunk of the people who are playing this game, it is a Star Wars game first and an FPS second.

For the record, there isn't a single person here who thinks the SW universe is REAL for a second! But just because it isn't reality doesn't mean that you can disregard things that don't mesh with it. A game about Superman that uses Kryptonite as a way to give Superman strength instead of weakening him, well then it really isn't a game about Superman, is it? You're changing the rules? And what if in the next Batman and Robin movie that comes (side note: I hope another one never does) they cast Robin as 55 yr fat drunk guy. Hey it's not reality! Do whatever.

Look, I've been playing these types of games for a loooooong time, and not just FPS. Combat flight sims and space sims have a good on-line/mp aspect to them too. I've done the "winning uber alles" thing for a good deal of time, and eventually it became boring. Now instead of just trying to win, I've found that I have the most fun (in any game) trying to win in certain way, a challenging way. Using my Madden football analogy above, it's super damn easy to win if you choose a team like the Rams, but whats the real fun in that? I play as the Browns, one of the worse teams in there and in r/l, and try to make them the champs. It's a better affirmation of your skills to take a worse setup and win with that, than to take the most powerful setup and plow over. In this game, I try to stick to the saber, LJ setup. Yeah it contradicts my name, but when I signed up here, I had no idea how many people would be going the Dark Jedi route, and felt the first couple times I played that there weren't enough Light guys running around. Now I'm hooked. Interesting to note, most of the gun users you'll find choose the DS, I don't think I've yet to run across a primarily gun guy that was heal-whoring me :)

Instead of adapting to tactics deemed "cheap", they started whining. I've whined about a bunch of things, but I stopped once I realized, they're just playing the game, better than me, so they're not the problem, I am

I've adapted to plenty of tactics that are "cheap" including the drain grip and throw, heavy stance jumpers, arm skin users, etc. Absorb/guns for the first, light stance mobility for the second, and arm skin users you just need to have good eyes ;)

I'll quit my so called "whining" now. If you want to bunny jump, whatever, go for it. You want to call people fanboys go for it. I highly anticipate the next FPS coming out, cuz the ppl left will be the ones who actually do play for fun (my opinion).

TDS

Retro
04-11-2002, 12:36 PM
Lets put it this way, what if someone exploited a bug which enabled you to fly in spectator mode, and kill people, go through walls, capture the flag, yadda yadda yadda...much like the Spectator Hack for Half-life.

But this was simply by using the games engine instead of another program...would you deem this fair? And by all accounts should be used? If you would, then you have problems.

The whole reason ID left it in the system in the first place, was because they didn't know how to fix it when they first discovered it was there. But when they did find out, and wanted to, people whined about not being able to exploit the game anymore, so they left it in. If they had known how to fix it when they first discovered it, we wouldn't be having this discussion.

The issue at hand isn't weather it's fair or not, but weather the game was meant to be played with it, and since no where in star wars do you see idiots hopping around like monkeys, I'd have to say no, it wasn't meant for people to jump around.

I dont even know why I bother replying to threads, it's not like I can change anyones mind or anything. As in my before post, I'm sure I've contradicted myself and whatnot, but I dont care, I know what I mean :p.

Pvt_Dancer
04-11-2002, 12:38 PM
Oh please, you wouldn't even BE here complaining about bunny-hopping if you were only in it for the gameplay. No, you're here ranting about how evil it is, because you want to win, but can't, and bunny-hopping is your excuse of the day.

First of all, as I have previously stated, strafe-jump does not = win. Second and more importantly, I HATE it when people assume that you MUST be like them. Just because a chap is complaining about strafe-jumping doesn't mean that he is complaining because he loses. Your assumption is insulting and ignorant.

Who gives a crap that the guy may be a fan of Star Wars!!!? I am willing to bet that a majority of people who bought this game did so because of the Star Wars license. Is it then so unreasonable to understand that for them to see a bunch of guys bouncing around a level makes the whole experience kind of cheesy?

When it comes down to it neither of you will ever agree with the other so why don't you just not play with each other? Just stay away from each other, play with people who you enjoy playing with and end of discussion. This is going nowhere.

Zodiac
04-11-2002, 01:11 PM
I think a lot of people have given a very valid reason to use strafe jumping: to get to the action faster. I've seen that mentioned a couple of times, and I agree totally on that. JK2 levels are pretty big, and when I die and respawn at the other side of the level where no action is, I'd like to get to the action ASAP.... Cuz action=fun fun fun!!
running towards the action takes too long, so I either roll my way over there, or strafe jump. Both look stupid, but I'm not spending half an hour running a marathon at JK2's normal snail speed to get into the action.

So either leave strafejumping in, or make us run faster.. (or even make the levels smaller lol)... just don't leave us with that slow running!! :)

and please don't tell me to use force_speed, because I am one of those many players who plays on NF-servers.

Obi-Cyph
04-11-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Craggeh
Hah. This is complete rubbish :D If you knew how to strafe jump perfectly fine, you wouldn't be taking off into a level one force jump at all - once you've mastered even the basic strafe jump it's childsplay to string them into a chain without force jumping. As for not being able to keep up with the ysalamiri runner with force run enabled...

Are you crazy? A force jump whilst force running is all you'll ever need to catch one of those guys O.o some people need to work on their skills before complaining ^_^

I said I know how to strafe jump (which you didn't seem to read, or just ignored the fact that I said it), however, if I wanted to do mindless strafe jumping, getting the ysalamiri is an easier way to do it, because then I don't have to worry about holding space down just a little too long (which isn't too much of a problem, but if you've been jumping around crazily in a FFA game using force jump, it can happen :) ). Which I said in my post :)

I can strafe jump fairly easily (the joys of quake3 and ra3, where some of the maps are fairly huge). But why don't I mind strafe jumping in those? Because those games aren't based around any particular universe, or background. Whereas JK2 is. Strafe jumping does not suit the Star Wars universe, nor does it suit the gameplay of JK2.

And in regards to all the "fanboy" name calling thats happening in here, its funny that people think calling someone a Star Wars Fanboy is some awesome insult. It's not even insulting. Puh-lease.

Take the Grenade Cheat in RtCW for example. That is a Bug Exploit and anyone implemementing this bug is CHEATING.

Wasn't that patched in 1.1....

Hrm, to fix the strafe jumping, all Raven would need to do is tweak strafe speeds a bit. At least, you'd think that'd fix it. But then would we have the strafe jumping people crying about that?

hughJ
04-11-2002, 01:45 PM
"How do you feel it is not a cheat? It exploits a bug in the physics of the engine. A cheat like "wallhack" exploits a bug by using a differen't file which allows you to see through, you people seem to think that because it's a bug and not a program, it's ok to explot. Lets, just for kicks say there WAS an invincibility crouch-jump bug..."

as long as the technique doesn't upset gameplay balance to the point where it hurts the game, makes it less skilled, etc it's fine... it's probably arguable in JK2 whether or not bunnyhopping will seriously hurt gameplay... as it stands, it does have issues with the current implementation of force speed, so it probably will wind up as being more frowned upon than it is in Quake, etc... but one would really have to see how the competitive community in JK2 pans out with it being around.. if matches wind up losing something over this, then likely you'll have an answer as to whether or not this is good/bad for gameplay..

"Bug Exploitation is cheating, full stop! The isnt any argument that you could put up to promote your points of view."

bug exploiting doesn't always = cheating.. everything from rocket jumping, to concussion jumping (TF) were never originally intended to be there... but they were discovered and the gaming community wound up making a decision on a case-by-case scenerio as to whether or not the unintended result was something that deemed removal/fixing or at least tweaking in that specific game..

in TFC, bunnyhopping has since been toned down, so that class balance issues no longer are hurt.. in CS it was given a much more strict limitation, due to a much more fragile gameplay system..

I doubt that the double-jumping that exists in Quake2 was something that was thought up from the start, but after it was discovered, it was altered and developed more into a feature.. maps have been designed now to take advantage of it... it's even been intentionally added as a feature to Q3F...

Retro
04-11-2002, 02:21 PM
HughJ, thanks for not quoting every single thing I said, and insulting...(at least I dont THINK you insulted...)

You talk about hurting gameplay, what could hurt gameplay more, than being able to outrun everyone, when your not even supposed to have ANY force powers at all. (I'm refering to CTY) The whole point of CTY, was for people who wanted more of a challenge, there is NOT a challenge in someone getting the yasil...little anmial thingie guy, and hopping all the way back to base, with having 0 chance to stop him. I've never seen bunny hopping on any server except CTY, nor do I think it's impact is as strong, I think it's more the principle of the thing, rather than the act itself. (with the exception of CTY)

Bunny-hopping in Q3 is fine, it's accepted, theres nothing to base it on except blatant rocket spamming and such, in JK2, it's based on a universe, and you people using BH, talk about us not being happy with the way the game was meant.

Heeeeeeeeeeeeellooooooooooooooooooooooooo...your abusing a bug that wasn't meant to be in the game, and really ruins the atmosphere of the game for other people. In a sense, your forcing your own rules apon us, (bunny-hop or you get screwed) but there can be so much debate on what "forcing rules apon others" are.

You're obviously not happy with the game, since you want to abuse a bug in the engine, theres just so many points of view that can be taken, it's impossible to really end the debate.

Ugh, I'm probably speaking in gibberish, it's light outside, and I havn't been to bed....BLAH!

FWB
04-11-2002, 04:03 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Cheating, aka hacking, is the manipulation of a game's files/code to give an advantage to the cheater. Strafe-Jumping is a bug exploit. The fact that you can even confuse the two is laughable. :rolleyes: Bugs can be exploited by everyone without altering the game in any way.

Go to a dictionary and look the word "cheating" up. You'll see it has no reference to hacking. I fear you need to take an English class. :)

And, with your insistance that JO conform to your idea of what "Star wars should be about," you are making it clear exactly how much of a "fanboy" you are.

If that is what you think, fine, I couldn't care less. I still maintain it conforms to the genre as best it can.

Oh please, you wouldn't even BE here complaining about bunny-hopping if you were only in it for the gameplay. No, you're here ranting about how evil it is, because you want to win, but can't, and bunny-hopping is your excuse of the day.

Again putting words into my mouth. You sure love to do that. I don't have a problem winning, and I certainly don't have a problem losing. It is clear I'm not the only one who feels bunny-hopping is not playing the game in the right spirit. Don't try coming up with some lame excuse because we disagree on a matter.

I don't think you truly understand the definition of irony, my friend. And no, you can't extract it from any Alanis Morissette songs. :rolleyes:

I need to spell it out to you? By dismissing those calls that ask for the "bug" to be removed you are imposing your view of how the game should be played. It works both ways, so I wouldn't try and bring that argument up.

Good, since it wasn't a question, but a statement. Now here's a question you haven't answered, regarding your stance on gun-users. Do you wish gun-users to be disempowered by having their Force removed in FFAs? It certainly seemed that way in your previous post.

Yes, I would support that, but I will not make an issue of it because it fits in either way into the spirit of Star Wars. Bunny-hopping, on the other hand, doesn't. On top of which... but again you seem to enjoy ignoring my posts... it is unbalancing. It nulls force speed. That was, in fact, my main concern.

Defending what "settings" exactly? Are you referring to the bunny-hopping? As I recall, I stated twice that "It's irrelevant to me." It's irrelevant to me, because I have better things to do than to complain about it. And people who do complain about it, have ulterior motives for doing so.

If you find it so irrelevant, why are you here? If you don't care what happens, why are you even discussing it? I think you're just looking for an argument sicne you have nothing better to do.

What I have defended, and do defend, is the right of those who go onto a FF guns FFA server to use both Force powers and guns.

That is not part of the topic. Read the thread title, please.

lol, unlike you my primary concern for the game is not whether Jedi Outcast "conforms to the Star Wars universe." :rolleyes: Now you're really sounding like a fanboy.

The name calling continues. It is easy to spot weak arguments. They resort to such childish resources. Sigh.

Perhaps you're unaware that Jedi Outcast is... Shock horror - a game. Games are fun, but they also have winners and losers. Without a goal to accomplish, a game is no longer a game. And why do people want to win? Because winning is the goal of the game. Whoever reaches that goal first, gets a buzz.

You're missing the point. There's a difference between those who aim for a goal and those who will do whatever they can to reach it, even if it involves moving outside the spirit of the game.

Yes, I enjoy winning, I'd be a liar if I said I didn't. But somehow, I don't think I'm the one obsessed with it... Those who complain about the way in which others win a game, do so because they wished to win in his/her stead, and become obsessed.

A very poor deduction. It is so sad that you are incapable of appreciating the fact that some people simply don't care about winning. You may think it is everything, but believe it or not, many do not.

As I said previously, people who are so vehement about such bugs, tend to be the ones who cry the most sour grapes while losing.

So spawnkilling is alright? Base-raping is fine? Using the skin which only has two arms is ok too?

It's obvious to me that you have neither the interest in, nor the dedication to JO to become one of the so called "elite."

The first bit of sense you've made. 100% right. I simply don't have the time to play video games that much. But from the sounds of things, I wouldn't want to be part of the "elite", if all they do is tell you to shut-up, refer to you as a "fanboy" and keep calling you a poor loser. The correlation continues...
I get no excitement from being called a good player in a game (I mean, come on, it is all down to hand/eye co-ordination, not something I really care about). The only reason I enjoy any such remark is because it highlights the fact that I've finally found a server full of "nice" people.

And that would be fine, if you weren't so bitter. However, your obsessive insistance that JO conform rigidly to the alleged rules of the Star Wars universe, show a level of commitment to Star Wars that makes the "busy outside" and "enjoying the sunshine" portions a little too hard to stomach.

lol. I also get pissed when Hollywood distorts history in its films. I didn't start the thread, someone else did. I've voiced my opinion and will continue to do so. I know there's a culture that is fine to sit back and not say a word when they think something out of place (even worse are the guys telling you to shut up), but I'm not going to be part of it. Progress would never be made. I'm sure Raven are keen to hear what people are thinking. The thread was here, so I posted. Aprt from which, it takes me all of 5 mins to post a message. I don't know, maybe you require much longer for your replies, but I hardly find it time consuming, and I'm certainly not thinking about it other than when I read the forum messages. :)

My ask what you're obsession with posting here is then, other than telling us to shut up?

hughJ
04-11-2002, 05:53 PM
"Go to a dictionary and look the word "cheating" up. You'll see it has no reference to hacking"

'hacking' (external/modified game code to alter game mechanics) is about the only thing you can classify, without a shadow of a doubt, as "cheating" in online multiplayer games.. some game bugs are accepted, some are not.. these such things fall under a 'preference' category, as whether they are accepted or not can vary from league to league, or server to server... however convenient it may be to fall back on the "look it up in the dictionary" response, the context obviously doesn't relate to every given situation, including this one...

if I looked 'hacking' up in the dictionary, its definition would fall pretty closely to that of cfg modification, scripting, and other such things that aren't necessarily 'bad'... so it's kinda a moot point to bring dictionary definitions into this..

G-Ninja
04-11-2002, 06:17 PM
Strafe-jumping, or bunnyhopping, is in no way a cheat. It is a coded part of the game, there for the advantage of canny users. If the developers had thought of it as a cheat, it would have been removed - it has been around and known about in the Quake3 engine (purposely) for a long time now. Hey, its not even unrealistic - in a game where you can force jump 8 times normal height, bunnyhopping fits in well in my opinion. Don't complain about people using it to get away from you - learn how to do it, and catch up!

Jiro Kage
04-11-2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by 70-228
PS. Jiro Kage I don't know where you got the idea that bunny hopping is only bunny hopping if started with a rocket powered speed up. It's always just been the another term for strafe jumping. And a usefull one too as it's clearer to describe what it does than how to do it.


You lost the plot buddy, and don't know your "gaming history". Back when this whole thing was learned about, you didn't strafe to catch the speed. It was known as bunny hopping then, because obviously, why would you say strafe jumping when you don't use strafe at all? when Q3 came on the scene and it got big (here I could be wrong - dunno how Q2 fits in it, but from WF I don't remember it) people started referring to it as strafe jumping. Therefore, some of us who still play TF/MTF refer to it as "bunny hopping" to differentiate the two styles of speeding up.

Besides that, bunny hopping is a LOT faster than strafe jumping could ever hope to be.

Spider AL
04-11-2002, 07:38 PM
Go to a dictionary and look the word "cheating" up.

Certainly I shall! The Collins English Dictionary definition of cheat:

"Cheat vb 1. to deceive or practice deceit, esp. for one's own gain; trick or swindle (someone). 2. (intr.) to obtain unfair advantage by trickery, as in a game of cards."

Oh, and here's Dictionary.com's definition:

"cheat: v. cheat·ed, cheat·ing, cheats v. tr.

To deceive by trickery; swindle - To deprive by trickery; defraud
To mislead; fool - To elude; escape. v. intr. To act dishonestly; practice fraud. -To violate rules deliberately, as in a game: was accused of cheating at cards. - Informal. To be unfaithful: cheat on a spouse."

Now why don't you tell me how the word "cheating" applies to strafe-jumping? Hmm? Let's see: "To violate rules"? No, there is no rule saying that: "strafe-jumping in CTY games is banned and outlawed." Well, only if it's you who's made up the rules. :)

No, strafe-jumping is a bug exploit.

You'll see it has no reference to hacking.

Neither do the definitions contain any reference to "Bunny-Hopping." Thanks for proving my point so concisely, bunny-hopping is not cheating, and your belief that it IS cheating, is wrong.

In a game, when someone accuses one of cheating, they are accusing one of hacking the game. This is a normal online gaming link, and if you are unaware of it, then you truly have very little gaming experience.

I fear you need to take an English class.
Oh, how wonderfully condescending of you, my little smickering dumpling! :rolleyes: What next? Would you dazzle us with the remainder of your enormous repertoire of snide gibberish? :D

I certainly don't have a problem losing.
I very much doubt that you find losing difficult in any way, shape or form.

I'm not the only one who feels bunny-hopping is not playing the game in the right spirit.
Such an opinion is bound to attract many followers, to be sure. This does not make your opinion of what the "right spirit" is, the correct one. Just so you know. :rolleyes: Certainly, get a petition together and ask Raven to remove the strafe-jumping capability, if you wish to, and good luck to you. But don't fall into the trap of believing yourself to be the sole arbiter of Star-Warsyness on the planet Earth. Nor should you fall into the trap of believing that your idea of what a Star Wars game should be about, is important in any respect.

By dismissing those calls that ask for the "bug" to be removed you are imposing your view of how the game should be played. It works both ways, so I wouldn't try and bring that argument up.

Ahh but you are not me, a fact which I am eternally grateful for. Irony is, and I quote once again from Collins: "The humorous or mildly sarcastic use of words to imply the opposite of what they normally mean." or: "incongruity between what is expected to be and what actually is," So if I were to say that your arguments are adult, well-formed and based around factual ideas rather than your own self-interests, I would be using irony.

What you MAY be trying to accuse me of, is being a hypocrite... which would also be nonsense. :) You are the one talking about changing the basic structure of the game to suit you. The fact that I am pointing out your self-interested motives in this pursuit, is honest and forthright... anything but hypocritical.

Also, I have never said that bunny-hopping is a good thing, in fact, I have said that it is irrelevant to me. You insist on implying that I am defending bunny-hopping in some way, when I have made it plain that I don't give two figs whether it's in or out.

Now, I asked: "Do you wish gun-users to be disempowered by having their Force removed in FFAs?" You have answered:

Yes, I would support that

So! You would support the taking away of Force Powers from gunners. This says it all. You are only interested in obtaining a larger advantage for yourself in a game, because you have not the stomach to learn how to use a gun, yet you wish to play on guns servers. Petty. You would support the act of spoiling the game for gunners.

If you were truly unconcerned over whether you won games or not, you would not support the crippling of innocent gunners in this manner, because whether they won or not, would be irrelevant to you. I submit that it is painfully obvious that you wish to tailor the game to suit YOU, in order that you might stand a chance of winning more often. All your assertions that you "do not care" about winning, are bunkum and nonsense.

why are you here? If you don't care what happens, why are you even discussing it?

I initially responded to TDS' comments concerning "gun-whoring," and since then, I have been replying to your less than mature comments, notably your opinion that your view of what JO should be like, is the correct one. An opinion in which, you are painfully mistaken. You need to accept that gunners should, and do play the game while using Force powers. You also need to accept that after bunny-hopping, you'll probably find something else to complain about, because the game will never live up to your gargantuan expectations of how truly "Star-Warsy" it should be.

That is not part of the topic. Read the thread title, please.
Shouldn't I go take my English class first, just to make sure I'm prepared? :rolleyes:

It is so sad that you are incapable of appreciating the fact that some people simply don't care about winning. You may think it is everything, but believe it or not, many do not.
Oh I'm quite sure that there are some people who don't give a hoot about winning. You however, are not among them. :) As for me, I like to think that I make a bit of an effort to get better at the game every time I play, which is one way I get my fun from the game. To get better at the game, one must learn to accept defeat AND victory as part of the learning process. Thus, I care less about individual victories and defeats than your average player, and compared to you? Well, let's just say compared to an obsessive, I'm a positive picture of serenity.

I've voiced my opinion and will continue to do so
Oh joy. :rolleyes:

I know there's a culture that is fine to sit back and not say a word when they think something out of place (even worse are the guys telling you to shut up), but I'm not going to be part of it. Progress would never be made.

Oh get off your crusading horse, the sheen of your armour dazzles mine eyes. Here you go again, your opinion is the right one, you're the spokesman for a legion of right-thinking people, you're the knight who'll free the shackled sabreing denizens of Antibunnyhopland.

Let's make this plain and clear:

You've bought the game.

You go online.

People annoy and defeat you by using guns with force, and bunny-hopping away from you.

Instead of trying to learn tactics that counteract these situations, (and there are ALWAYS such tactics, tactics which may make bunny-hopping entirely useless as a practice, negating the need to have it removed) in less than two weeks after the official release date, before people have even had a CHANCE to get to know the game, and certainly before you've learned much about it yourself, you would like to have force powers taken away from gunners, and have strafe-jumping removed.

Well that's fine. Premature, but still, your choice. Petition Raven about it, see what they say.

So spawnkilling is alright? Base-raping is fine? Using the skin which only has two arms is ok too?

Well, I personally don't have any trouble defeating the people who have attempted such tactics when I was present. But if you want the things removed or disabled, petition Raven.

My ask what you're obsession with posting here is then, other than telling us to shut up?

Who did you say needed "to take an English class?" :confused:

Well, all grammar (or lack of it) aside, I post here to air my views. Your views and mine appear to be in conflict, so a debate has emerged. Questions have been asked, statements made. I continue posting, to respond to such statements and answer such questions. There's your answer.

Craggeh
04-11-2002, 07:42 PM
You're obviously not happy with the game, since you want to abuse a bug in the engineI'm very happy with the game, actually :D

One last time, and the last thing I say on this particular topic...

Strafe jumping does NOT null force speed - without speed strafe jumping I can catch a strafe jumper with no problems whatsoever.

me out.

FWB
04-11-2002, 08:02 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Now why don't you tell me how the word "cheating" applies to strafe-jumping? Hmm? Let's see: "To violate rules"? No, there is no rule saying that: "strafe-jumping in CTY games is banned and outlawed." Well, only if it's you who's made up the rules. :)

So what if there is a bug that allows you to become invisible? Is that not cheating? Just because it is part of the system does not mean it can by definition, not be cheating. That is why I brought it up. There is no black and white line on cheating, though you seem to think it exists. As for bunny-hopping, well I think it is cheating. You seem to be pissed off at this notion, but it won't stop me saying so. The thread is about it. If you are incapable of keeping on track with the topic then I suggest you create another thread where you can throw your insults (through all my time online I've amazed that people continue to believe they have any impact) around.

It also... I'll say it again... imbalances the game. The force speed is of no use. I notice you've avoided this issue throughout the entire "debate".

Neither do the definitions contain any reference to "Bunny-Hopping." Thanks for proving my point so concisely, bunny-hopping is not cheating, and your belief that it IS cheating, is wrong.

By the same argument neither is an aim-bot cheating.

Oh, how wonderfully condescending of you, my little smickering dumpling! :rolleyes: What next? Would you dazzle us with the remainder of your enormous repertoire of snide gibberish? :D

Hey, if you see something condescending there, well then that's your problem. Perhaps it is something inside of you you should investigate. :)

Nor should you fall into the trap of believing that your idea of what a Star Wars game should be about, is important in any respect.

I hope you realise the same of your's. I have not once denied the fact that it forces people to play the game a certain way, but you seem to be blind to the fact that any support of it does the same.

Ahh but you are not me, a fact which I am eternally grateful for. Irony is, and I quote once again from Collins: "The humorous or mildly sarcastic use of words to imply the opposite of what they normally mean." or: "incongruity between what is expected to be and what actually is," So if I were to say that your arguments are adult, well-formed and based around factual ideas rather than your own self-interests, I would be using irony.

Ohh dear, you are a poor-sighted person:

Irony: Use of language with one meaning for privileged few and another for those addressed or concerned.

Once again, I suggest you take an English lesson... perhaps an eye-test would be better. :)

So! You would support the taking away of Force Powers from gunners. This says it all. You are only interested in obtaining a larger advantage for yourself in a game, because you have not the stomach to learn how to use a gun, yet you wish to play on guns servers. Petty. You would support the act of spoiling the game for gunners.

I've asked you to do this a number of times, but you obviously don't understand it... please read my posts. If you had, you'd actually see I prefer using the guns. This rest of your comments regarding this are pointless since you've assumed wrongly.

As for the removal of force powers... once again you don't read my posts. I clearly stated it was from a reply to an e-mail someone sent to Raven (it is in the forum if you want to look). The developers themselves believe there is an imbalance here. I support it. Please, do your research before even beginning to design a response.

Oh I'm quite sure that there are some people who don't give a hoot about winning. You however, are not among them. :)

Thanks for telling me what I am. :rolleyes:

Well, let's just say compared to an obsessive, I'm a positive picture of serenity.

Says the guy who has also dedicated such long posts to this.

Well, all grammar (or lack of it) aside, I post here to air my views. Your views and mine appear to be in conflict, so a debate has emerged.

Well it seemed like a debate until you resorted to such childish comments. Why is it so many individuals have to resort to such language? The topic was still in focus until you decided to move it with comments on "fanboys" and "obsession". I'm more and more convinced that everyone's a bully on the internet.

70-228
04-11-2002, 08:03 PM
You lost the plot buddy, and don't know your "gaming history"If you can tell me what the Ziggurat cheat was then I'll believe you know "gaming history" :rolleyes:

Fyunch Click
04-11-2002, 08:13 PM
Whew! Flames getting a bit hot in this thread!:sweating:

Everybody calm down! It is after all just a game. This is after all an Internet forum and lets face it not everyone is going to agree with one another.

I think we've found some folks here who don't. I'm not saying hug and make up just tone it down a bit and try not to attack one another. Differing opinions are what makes the Internet great, not flame wars.


/me runs in case any flames shoot my way.

Obi-Cyph
04-11-2002, 08:28 PM
Originally posted by G-Ninja
Hey, its not even unrealistic - in a game where you can force jump 8 times normal height, bunnyhopping fits in well in my opinion.

Only one problem with saying that G-Ninja - Force jumping is a deliberate part of the game, and it's a part of the SW Universe. Bunny hopping is not.

Swamp
04-11-2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Mafia_Jabba
-conclusion....Join a server w/ rules setup...thats the end i guess

seeing as how i doubt it will be removed, this will be the only option in the end ...


i still am not completely sold on the idea that it is soo horrible, and i definately don't agree with it, i guess im in the middle ...

Spider AL
04-11-2002, 10:21 PM
So what if there is a bug that allows you to become invisible? Is that not cheating?

No my son, if it comes with the game, ready and able, it's a bug. It occurs to me that you're confusing "cheat" with "cheap." Yes, there's only one letter's difference, but you really should try your best to spot these things. ;)

If you want a bug to be removed, petition Raven. Whining at me, does you no good on that front. But it's a vaguely amusing distraction from the humdrum world around us for a few minutes a day. For that, I thank you wholeheartedly.

As for bunny-hopping, well I think it is cheating. You seem to be pissed off at this notion, but it won't stop me saying so.

You could scream it to the high heavens mate, doesn't make your opinion any less flawed. A bug is a bug, if you don't agree with it, fine. Petition Raven. But frankly, all this complaining is just sour grapes, and the only "pissed off" person in this room, is you. :D

You said that bunny-hopping:

imbalances the game. The force speed is of no use. I notice you've avoided this issue throughout the entire "debate".

As a matter of fact, I've addressed it several times. I have stated, and will again, that bunny-hopping can carry on forever, or it can stop today, and either way it will make no difference to me. I simply don't care about bunny-hoppers, no more than I care about people using Force Speed, or the Strong stance, or the Disruptor. There are ways of taking them out, good teamwork in CTY one example. If you can't find someone to play with you as a team on a server,.. well, go find someone.

On a side note, Force Speed has uses other than increasing forward speed, which you're obviously unaware of, and I'm not going to disadvantage your righteous opponents by informing you of them. :D You'd probably try to have them removed, anyway. ;)

By the same argument neither is an aim-bot cheating.

If I'm not mistaken, knowing comfortably little about cheating methods, a Quake 3 aimbot usually must be added to your system to work, having been downloaded or compiled by you. Therefore, it is a cheat. Strafe jumping is a bug, like Supergrip was in JK. You could do it without altering your game. If there were an unintentional Quake aimbot that could be activated "out of the box" as it were, then it would be defined as a bug, and it would be the choice of the community whether to petition Id to remove it. Having said that, bugs are available to be exploited by everyone, so it's up to the individual concience of each player to choose. I personally never touch bugs.

if you see something condescending there, well then that's your problem.

Actually being condescending is your problem. One of your problems. One of your many problems. :rolleyes:

I have not once denied the fact that it forces people to play the game a certain way, but you seem to be blind to the fact that any support of it does the same.

And who's supporting bunny-hopping, other than your imaginary friend? For the last time, hopefully, I don't give a hoot about bunny-hopping. I care about guns with Force being preserved. :) Something, you wish to destroy. Shame on you.

Ohh dear, you are a poor-sighted person: Irony: Use of language with one meaning for privileged few and another for those addressed or concerned.

And your source for that definition? I provided mine, or have you never compiled a list of sources/bibliography?

Once again, I suggest you take an English lesson... perhaps an eye-test would be better.

Aww "I wub ur widdiw insuwts." For someone with your obvious "flair" for grammar, you bandy the English lesson thing around a little too freely. But you bandy everything around too freely, from your tenuous opinions to your fundamentally flawed ideals.

My ask what you're obsession with posting here is then,
"Exqueez my!" who was your English tutor then, Jar-Jar Binks? :D

The developers themselves believe there is an imbalance here. I support it.

Ahh so whatever the developers decide is the "right thing," is that what your argument hangs on?

Then... what about the fact that they left bunny-hopping in? :rolleyes: That doesn't seem to have pleased you too well.

it seemed like a debate until you resorted to such childish comments.

Now that's hypocritical. (Not ironic.) Childish comments, like... ohhh "you need to take an English class," or "Ohh dear, you are a poor-sighted person?" Physician, heal thyself.

Thanks for telling me what I am.

Someone has to mate, otherwise you'd just be obliviously unpleasant. ;)

I'm more and more convinced that everyone's a bully on the internet.

lol I'm a bully? You're the one who's trying to force his view of what JO should be like onto the entire Outcast playing public. Your hypocrisy stuns me friend. :) Either you're intentionally selfish, or... god knows. Good luck in your petition to Raven... You'll need it.

hughJ
04-11-2002, 10:40 PM
"what about the fact that they left bunny-hopping in?"

considering we're talking about Raven here.. whom have made more Quake-engine adaptions than I can count (every single Quake having some form of bunnyhopping/strafejumping) I guess the (honest) question remains, why didn't they remove it?

it's been able to be dealt with in other games through various methods.. why not here?

Zodiac
04-11-2002, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Fyunch Click
Whew! Flames getting a bit hot in this thread!:sweating:
Everybody calm down! It is after all just a game. This is after all an Internet forum and lets face it not everyone is going to agree with one another.
I think we've found some folks here who don't. I'm not saying hug and make up just tone it down a bit and try not to attack one another. Differing opinions are what makes the Internet great, not flame wars.
/me runs in case any flames shoot my way.

Exactly!! All this bickering is no good at all:
Will some anti-bunny-hop person convince a bunnyhopper to stop doing it by posting a lot on these boards? NO
Will a bunnyhopper convince a anti-hopper it's all good an legit? NO
I haven't seen anybody yet who said: "oh ok, you're so right, all your posts have convinced me that bunnyhopping IS good/bad!".

This is the internet, I've seen so many discussions on many forums, always one group who's against something, and one group who is for something. And it always ends up with one group who's against something, and one group who is for something.

So just... stay objective.. stop the personal insults.. RavenSoft's the only one who can do anything about it, so address your points to Raven, and don't flame personal insults at some dude behind his pc.

TheDarkSide
04-11-2002, 11:08 PM
I think we may have accidentally stumbled upon the third topic beyond religion and politics that its just plain pointless to debate over.....bunny hopping :)

I think everyone has said their piece, and each additional post seems more like a waste of bandwidth. I smell a closed thread in the air....

TDS

70-228
04-12-2002, 02:03 AM
Will some anti-bunny-hop person convince a bunnyhopper to stop doing it by posting a lot on these boards? NO Actually once upon a time I was a pro bunny! That was quite a few years ago though. However it was threads like these combined with the effect it had on one of my favourite games that changed my mind. Basically the game I like was dying when a few people rediscovered strafing and within months the game was dead.

These threads "can" open people's eyes. However most don't actually reveal the fact as it can be an ego bruising experience to admit when you're wrong.

Pvt_Dancer
04-12-2002, 04:02 AM
Well, its like I said... just agree to not play together and where will the problems lie? If you don't like bunny-hoppers don't play with them.... and vice versa ... if you don't like each other then avoid playing against each other....damn.

This thread is like the wars that have been going on in the middle east for centuries. They've been going at it for so long with so many casualties that neither side will give up the ghost just out of sheer spite and pride. They don't even know what they're fighting about now and Im not sure I do either... is the arguement about strafe-jumping, winners vs. losers, guns and the Force or is it about grammar? Or is it about whos pen15 is bigger? :rolleyes:

I forget.

Trienco
04-12-2002, 07:17 AM
>No my son, if it comes with the game, ready and able, it's a bug. It occurs to me that you're confusing "cheat" with "cheap."<

ah, so if you enter helpusobi 1 youre not activating the cheats but youre exploiting a bug? if you enter CHEAT-codes in any game youre only using a bug?
that definition is too simple to work and though i dont agree 100% with someone saying bug exploiting is cheating i agree with that a lot more than 'hey, its in the game so its fair to use it'.

it's quite simple:
-someone is using it and you dont like it: vote for a kick and see if the others share that opinion or leave the game
-you are using it and get kicked: dont be surprised

Prox Kolari
04-12-2002, 07:36 AM
Bunnyhoppers -- bug, cheat, legit, whatever you want to call it -- do you at least concede this, and only this: if you saw Luke bunnyhopping in Star Wars fighting Vader, would you think it was retarded-looking?

You're playing a Star Wars game. Let's say the developers were on crack and added an old-style tommy gun from the '30s. But it worked pretty well. Would you use it with no complaints, or would you say "it works great, but... I don't know what it's doing here."

FWB
04-12-2002, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by Spider AL

If you want a bug to be removed, petition Raven. Whining at me, does you no good on that front. But it's a vaguely amusing distraction from the humdrum world around us for a few minutes a day. For that, I thank you wholeheartedly.

I dread to think how boring your life might be that you get kicks from this.

You could scream it to the high heavens mate, doesn't make your opinion any less flawed.

My, what an open-minded person you are. :rolleyes:

And your source for that definition? I provided mine, or have you never compiled a list of sources/bibliography?

I would have thought the eye-sight comment would have given that away. The same source as yours... a dictionary, the Oxford dictionary to be precise. But it appears you only read the first line of anything printed. I'll have that apology now.

Ahh so whatever the developers decide is the "right thing," is that what your argument hangs on?

Then... what about the fact that they left bunny-hopping in? :rolleyes: That doesn't seem to have pleased you too well.

Developers are aware they make mistakes. That is why they seek to correct them. I didn't say the developers support it and thus so do I, I said that I happen to agree with them.

Now that's hypocritical. (Not ironic.) Childish comments, like... ohhh "you need to take an English class," or "Ohh dear, you are a poor-sighted person?" Physician, heal thyself.

Nope. If you read the sentence again you'll note I'm refering to you starting the insults. Another misreading on your behalf. You really need to think when running through the posts.

lol I'm a bully?

I didn't say that. ;)

It seems I have touched a never with my general comment though.

You're the one who's trying to force his view of what JO should be like onto the entire Outcast playing public.

Do you not see you are doing the same? Whether it be defending those who "cheat" or supporting gunners and force usage.

WhiteChedda
04-12-2002, 11:07 AM
Originally posted by hughJ
"CS aswell as HLDM run on the quake2 engine so bunnyhopping was possible"

HL/CS/TFC run on a modified Quake1 engine, not Quake2..

the bunnyhopping mechanics for HL/CS/TFC are slightly different than that of Quake2 and Quake3, due to the relative low amount of air-control involved in Quake2 and Quake3, compared to HL...

...

When will the which version of the quake engine is HL on
discusion DIE!

According to valve they STARTED with the original Quake [with opengl renderer] source code, and were given SEVERAL updates by id, who was molding the quake engine into the quake2 engine, leaving them somewhere around the quake 1.5 engine.

Chances are the bunny hopping "feature" was in those UPDATES, so......... Rasafrackin tangents to the point of the thread.....

Synk
04-12-2002, 06:16 PM
Bunny (Strafe) jumping nor roling DOES NOT eliminate the use for force speed. Granted you can move lineraly faster with these techniques but force speed has other uses than running away.

Jiro Kage
04-12-2002, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by 70-228
If you can tell me what the Ziggurat cheat was then I'll believe you know "gaming history" :rolleyes:


Unlike you, I don't follow the cheats in a game. In fact, it could be the name for something that I know as something different. Ie, Gotwalls and AA are often mislabeled as the same thing.

However, I have one word for you....boom.

BlackAria
04-12-2002, 06:48 PM
It didn't start with Q1 until the quakeworld mod became popular. After that, Q1 was split up into two comunities, Netquake and Quakeworld players. It was Q2 that made it a intergraded part of the game. I could never play Q2 without strafe jumping, it was second nature to most Q2 player, I do it without even thinking about it. Which I guess hurts me since Q2 as I automatically try to strafe jump in every fps I try, lol. In Q3 they reduced it to only 2 starfe jumps in a row. I haven't played Q3 in over a year so I don't know if this changed as I switched to UT. I still love Q2/Q3, and I'll always think of myself as a Quaker, funny how games become part of you. As for the jumping in JKII, I think this won't be looked at by Raven until JKII gets into big lan tournaments and online tournaments, this is when most of the changes come when tourney players start to complain and the organizers of the tourneys set standard rules for gameplay.

BA

Fyunch Click
04-12-2002, 07:09 PM
This is in regard to Competitive play:

As of now the TWL is not considering it a cheat and it is not banned in ladder play.

That said, the TWL isn't running CTY ladders at this moment either.

Competition is starting now. Give us, the folks in the ladders and leagues, some time to deal with it. We're going to hammer the game to death, if something sucks then we'll vote to have it removed from the ladders and see if Raven can do something about it, or we'll get someone to create a Tourney Mod that prevents it.

As to pubbing?
I play on a pub to relax and have fun. True coordination doesn't happen on pubs. Never has, never really will at least not until we can all talk directly to one another without voicecomm progs. So don't whine, just ask the offending player to stop, if that fails vote to kick, if that fails go find another server. It isn't like there's only 10 servers out there.

{BTW, Don't flame me, I'm just trying to cut through to the heart of the argument and bring it to a civilized resolution. :) }

Spider AL
04-12-2002, 11:29 PM
I dread to think how boring your life might be that you get kicks from this.

Aamof my good, dear friend, "For that, I thank you wholeheartedly." etc. was irony. Something you're not too familiar with, I understand. :)

The same source as yours... a dictionary, the Oxford dictionary to be precise.

Ohhh a fact you may not be aware of: Different dictionaries use different wording in their definitions. Or do you think that all dictionaries by all scholarly publishers are printed exactly alike? lol It's not my eyesight that's at fault, it's your apparent belief that all lingual reference books contain the same print, verbatim. :rolleyes:

As for the definition itself, it proves my point. "Use of language with one meaning for privileged few and another for those addressed or concerned." bears no relation to my previous posts. I stated that your attempts to warp the game to your idea of what Star Wars should be like, was selfish and self-interested. You contend that I am guilty of the same thing, so you're still confusing irony with hypocrisy and you can add dithering incomprehension to your loooong list of personal faults. :) Once again, you prove my point admirably. Thank you! You are truly a gift to anybody with an opposing viewpoint to yourself.

Throughout this thread you've made it clear that you consider yourself the person with the "correct" viewpoint, qualified to tell game-developers when they've made mistakes by leaving such things as bunny-hopping in? Truly you are a godlike figure! :rolleyes:

Let's be clear, you're the one who wants to alter the engine to disadvantage guns/force users.

I'm refering to you starting the insults.

Care to point out where I started the insults? Just so that the good people here can see what innocuous statement sent you off into this blind, self-righteous and self-aggrandising chain of posts, naturally. :p

And re: you calling me a "bully," you state:

I didn't say that.

Ohh you didn't eh? Let's see:

I'm more and more convinced that everyone's a bully on the internet.

Yes, seems a pretty clear and plain case of childish sideways implication, but if you say it's not, I'll believe you. :)

But on a completely different subject, here's a "general comment," (unrelated to you of course,) I'm more and more convinced that "everyone's" an arrested, whining loser on the internet. :rolleyes:

It seems I have touched a never

Jar-Jar's really making you study hard, isn't he.

Do you not see you are doing the same?

Actually what I'm doing is pointing out your blatant selfishness, in wishing that gun-users be penalised for using guns by having their Force powers taken away. Shame on you, and those who share your view on the guns/force subject, for forcing your view of what the game should be like onto innocent players who are currently enjoying themselves on servers designed specifically for guns and force. How dare you.

Spider AL
04-12-2002, 11:45 PM
it was threads like these combined with the effect it had on one of my favourite games that changed my mind.

Yes, threads such as this do affect some people, sometimes. Hopefully, some people who resent losing on public servers will be affected positively by the debate on here, and will see the flaws in whatever hangups they possess that cause them to whine. However, realistically, debate serves relatively little purpose, but as social animals we all feel the need to voice our views at some time.

ah, so if you enter helpusobi 1 youre not activating the cheats but youre exploiting a bug?

This is a good question, but I must point out that cheat codes in games such as JO and Quake are disabled on servers by default. They must be enabled manually and intentionally by the server admins for users to use them in games. Therefore, players that use them on those servers cannot be classified as having broken any rules, thus they have not "cheated" per-se.

The term "cheat-codes" was coined back in the arcade game days, and is hence a throwback that bears little resemblance to the hardened, mercenary and evil multiplayer hacking that people do in order to cheat these days.

Also! If people recode their games so that they can use the codes on servers where the cheat codes have not been enabled, then they have hacked their game, hence that would definitely be cheating!

Because cheating is when you truly do cheat, to further your own game in secret, or to just plain annoy other players by ruining their games. Games tend to be designed (at least slightly) to resist behaviour of this type, thus people must manually recode at least some portion of their game in order to cheat. It might be very easy, as easy as importing a new config file, or adding a .pk3 to your system, but it's still cheating. But if, like strafe-jumping or Supergripping, there is something you can do without altering your game in any way, it is surely a bug, which everyone, regardless of fore-knowledge or coding ability, is able to emulate, do by accident, or otherwise employ.

Not all bugs are evil, rocket jumping in Quake was a bug. Id never thought it could be used in the way it was used by the players... and yes, some people whined about rocket-jumping. Yet it's integral to the FPS multiplayer community these days.

Hope that's clarified my opinion, anyway Trienco. Peace, out.

farmerBob
04-12-2002, 11:56 PM
wow... you guys love to argue semantics... and deeply too

VSAF
04-13-2002, 12:00 AM
You ppl really have alot of time...writing pages and pages of nonsense all day...STFU and play the game already!

grandmasterlee
04-13-2002, 01:27 AM
I skipped all the posts.

If everyone can do it, its not a cheat.

Caster
04-13-2002, 02:28 AM
Originally posted by grandmasterlee
I skipped all the posts.

If everyone can do it, its not a cheat.

If everyone was suppose to do it, it would be in the instruction manual.

-Caster

hughJ
04-13-2002, 03:50 AM
if everyone wasn't supposed to do it, they would have removed it from the game..

other games have it removed or nullified it through various code implementations.. this is raven we're talking about here.. they obviously knew it existed.. they have loads of quake engine experience..

[FTN]Topper
04-13-2002, 04:01 AM
Originally posted by TdM
thank god one person in this forum called it strafe jumping thank you valdarious - I presume strafe jumping is the same thing... what kinda ridiculous word is bunny hopping....

you do that on bikes and it sounds stupid then... strafe jumping is the term yes all technical so nice...

umm... anyway can you do the signiture curve? strafe jump continuously in one direction in a big long curve then after about 5 or 6 jumps switch direction and strafe jump the opposite way - used to give you a massive leap in action quake 2 giving you a massive advantage....


So, is it called "strafe jumping"? I thought it was bunny hopping. So to strafe jump, do you just press jump and then strafe to the side or something? I thought it was crouch, or is this a different thing altogether?

Trienco
04-13-2002, 07:05 AM
i know what you meant, just wanted to point out that your definition will only work for mp on servers that dont have cheats enabled. in sp it's 'in the game' but it's still called cheating.

and on the matter if raven wanted strafe-jumping to be in the game. i doubt it, it makes force speed unnecessary. but just wait for a first patch. if it will still be possible they want it if not they just forgot to do something about it (or didnt care).

but i honestly doubt that any serious game designer would ignore the fact that one of the features of the game becomes obsolete because of a 'bug' in the engine if someone brought up that topic during development.

Zodiac
04-13-2002, 12:55 PM
Originally posted by Caster


If everyone was suppose to do it, it would be in the instruction manual.

-Caster

maybe they forgot to put it in the manual? ;)

neovita
04-15-2002, 02:23 AM
bumb

Pvt_Dancer
04-15-2002, 03:30 AM
I can't believe you F-(rhymes with ducking) bumped this thread that has been raging for too long already!!!! Oy! :rolleyes:


Hehehehe oh well...

worm777
04-15-2002, 04:26 AM
I am a server admin of a duel server. Ocasionally we get a couple people in there that bunny hop and connect it with a heavy (one hit kill) downswing. That is very unbalanced since heavy is supposed to be a slow swing. I have seen people on my server do two bunny hops followed by the downswing and then immediatly do a backflip...and start all over again. Not only does it look ridiculous it is Cheap IMO. It detracts from the "Fun" factor of playing or watching a duel.

ACGe0rge
04-15-2002, 07:31 AM
Ater reading a several of the posts here, I have to side with the anti-bunnyhoppers.
First off, for those who hate the term bunnyhopping, I realize it doeasnt sound as cool or technical asstrafe jumping, but it is a bunny hop. If you saw someone in real life hopping down the street I doubt you would say,"Hey, look at that guy strafe jumping."
As for the move in the game, it is a a lazymans tactic and as close to a cheat as you can get without entering a code. The reason I say it's a lazymans tactic is because it requires no skill whatsoever. Sure it may take some time to perfect but thats irrelevant. The real "pros" are the guys who can use things like lightsaber skill, weapons skill, and force powers to give them selves an edge over the competition. I've lost count on how many times I've had someone come up on me from behind, force grip me, and move me around so fast I cant force push my way out of it before dumping me off a cliff. I've use the same move against others as well. Then there are some guys sho are such pros that they can get out of such situations more often than not and make me wish I'd never tried it. There are guys who know the maps so well they can get all teh god weapos fast and know just how to use them to kick everyones butt. For those who dont like rocket launcers, I've also been in situations where I thougth I was about to blow someone away just to have them run right at me and force puch all my rockets right back at me making that launcher work against me. There are also guys out there that have practices so much with their saber that they can kick anyones butt in a duel just by knowing what to do and when to do it. These guys are the real "pros" because they can use the game as it was intended and still win most matches. Even the so called "cheap" moves at least involve some real tactics. If someone has just barely won a lighsaber duel with someone, why not hit them with a burst of force lightning before they get a chance to heal up. Not my fault he took so much damage during the fight. These things take practice, talent, and a general understanding of tactics. The guys who use bugs in the game like bunny hopping or some of the invisible models, are just too lazy to realy learn how to play a game.
I'm not saying the bunny hopers are bad people or somehow less than human (this is just a game after all). What I do think is that they generally are inconsiderate and dont care if they ruin the fun for others. So, for those bunny hopping gurus out there, please make your own servers to play on and leave the rest of us in peace. Otherwise, dont get upset when you get kicked off of servers where people dont like what you are doing.

reserved_name
04-15-2002, 07:57 AM
umm no matter if strafe jumping is "skill" or not - but there are big differences between speeds different players gain in quake 3, and after how many jumps they gain the speed (some people seem to be going at twice the normal speed after few jumps) -, lets say you respawn on the opposite side of the map (compared to where all the others happen to be fighting)... are you supposed to just slowly run there (and maybe get immediately killed again once you get there)... i have used and will use strafe jumping to move faster around the maps.. i dont use it in fights (i dont know how it would be good for fights), but i dont care if others do (actually i dont care how others play in general)