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h71y6
04-08-2002, 02:16 AM
I have been experiencing this for the time that i've played this game. One of the annoying bugs can be replicated as often as you want, but mainly you see it often in duel matches.

1. The enemy has strong stance.
2. He does the "one-hit-kill". You know the jump forward and slash down that is unblockable. God knows how many players i've played against that only know this one move.
3. So you move out of the way.
4. He finishes the move, and is crouched down. His saber is on the floor. His back is right there for you to slash.
5. so you move in for the slash on his bare back.
6. Sweessph! You're dead. He starts to recover to his standing posture from the move.

Something tells me that the effect of that move is still active eventhough the move has finished. I find this extremely annoying, because there is nothing you can do if he uses that move, short of saberthrow. And against a player who only uses that one move, over and over again, it can get boring if i can't punish him for foolishly using that deadly but potentially fatal move.

Pol Favre
04-08-2002, 02:23 AM
lol
i hate that move with a passion.

i've had it get me from at least a foot away before. it IS unblockable.
i've learned to out run it. i played against a guy who just bounced around doing it repeatedly, and dodged every time. he only killed me ounce out of many duels.

just use light or medium stance and wait for them to finish, and the sabre to be off the ground. then when they're winding up, hit again.

h71y6
04-08-2002, 02:28 AM
That wasn't quite what i meant. I kill those one move guys all the time.

What i'm trying to convey is that AFTER the move, you can't move in while he is still crouched on the ground and his saber on the ground. He will still kill you eventhough he isn;t moving and crouched, with the saber nowhere near anywhere that can kill. I repeat, this is AFTER he had swing his saber down. And he is crouched on the ground and his saber ON the ground. Try to attack him. You'll see what i mean.

Pol Favre
04-08-2002, 02:29 AM
i know, i understood that the first time. i was just ranting :)

just stay back. what really annoys me is the range the move has. once they're on the ground they can still move around and stuff.

it does get extremely boring after a while. i've been very tempted to kick people out of my server for using this move over and over and over again. now that i've figured how to get away from the attack, they're just so easy to kill, but take TOO long to do so.

h71y6
04-08-2002, 02:34 AM
Yeah, my advice is to be patient for a clear opening. But it just annoys me since i know that this wasn't supposedly to work this way. You do these deadly moves at a price, which is long winding time, predictability and slow recovery time. Now if they do it carelessly, we can't punish them because, although the move "looks" finished, the area of effect is still in fact, in effect(hehe). The way to counter a one move guy is to flank him and pressure him by advancing. But still, seeing that arched back all there waiting for my saber to draw blood, but can't do nuts about it is annoying.

Tree
04-08-2002, 02:37 AM
Strong Stance is not balanced. Just like light stance.

This really shines in NF saber only duels.

Its funny to see those people go say.... 5 and 0 but as soon as they run into another strong stance whore, or they try medium stance they get murdered. I've seen it soo many times I can't count. Its a total newb tactic.

The problem with strong stance is the the SUPPOSED weakness is they leave themselves open for attack when they attack.

This never happens if the strong stance player has half a brain.

They just move the saber in a way that keeps you at bay, due to the ridiculous range of the attacks. You never have the time to get in close enough.

Its bad enough people whore storng stance, but using the one hit one kill is the sadest thing I've ever seen. I've seen people who only do that one move. They can spin in the ground while they do it. Aside from that, they can jump right out of the move, right after they do it.

They need to balance it.

The stance just has ridiculous range, not a bug.

h71y6
04-08-2002, 02:44 AM
With me, i have killed more of the strong stanced players than anything else in duel matches. You are right that it has incredible range. Though i know that usually, except for some rare cases where the player is actually good (and i've met a few), that if i get killed by a one kill one move guy, it's luck.

Zariyn
04-08-2002, 01:28 PM
I totally agree with you guys about strong stance. Granted, there are some good players that use it, but I see 90% of the newbs using it to get cheap 1 hit kills as well. I, personally, don't like using the same style that newbies use. I tend to use medium most of the time. I've found that it's a good balance of speed and power, and can usually take out most of the heavy gimps without many problems.

Pol Favre
04-08-2002, 02:26 PM
the gimpy gibbons...(cough)

they should make it more difficult to use. with so much power, it's speed really isn't even a problem for it.

it gets boring to watch, as well. when in a duel server, who wants to watch a battle of a guy jumping repeatedly and slashing down on his opponent over and over again? it gets very, very boring.

GreyJedi
04-08-2002, 03:06 PM
I don't like the stong stance - too slow for me. Also, I am not very good - I have only played JO online for a day or so. The duel games usually net me a score of 1/2 wins, 1/2 losses or so (50/50%).

Anyhow, I usually use the medium stance because my timing is too off for the slow/strong stance.

My question is this: In the manual, it says that one should use the strong stance in a one-v-one lightsaber situation i.e. a Duel. So, if this is the recommended stance for a duel, shouldn't the strong stance be "overpowered" anyways?

Or do you feel that it is TOO overpowered?

aletoledo
04-08-2002, 03:07 PM
I was going to post something about this also this morning. it really seems like its a bug to me. no other move in the game needs a "wind-up", so that the second move/combo is a instant kill move more powerful than the first. also strong isn't really supposed to have a combo move available, which it is a combo if you think about it.

I play a lot of duel and this weekend all I did it seems was to fight against this move. people are right that the people who do it are one trick ponies. anytime that they tried anything else, they died.

some people might think that we're ranting, but frankly I've seen it so much I've learned to avoid it. anyone seeing me fight can see me stand up to anything else without running around wildly on the map, but this is the only move where I need to run/roll/jump away.

not only does the effect last while on the ground, its in effect through the jump also. so thats a 3-4 second window of instant death. the cheesiest part is if the guy misses, he just readjusts his aim while the saber is still on the floor and BLAME the opponet still dies!

like I said, for countering it, I played against it all weekend and I've had numerous times where I was directly behind the guy with the saber on the floor (didn't die directly behind them at least), but have never scored a hit on them. so they are invulnerable while in this state! the only way to fight these guys is to get them while they are winding up in the first combo move or to use force.

its like the double swing, no-skill move has finally found its way back.

Canis_Aureus
04-08-2002, 03:15 PM
Will you please stop crying about the imbalances!

I have no problem killing a player who uses that same trick over and over. BUT the bug mentioned where the damage effect is active after the swing is done should be fixed.

There is no such thing as light, medium or heavy whoring... only inexperienced players who are tired of beeing killed. I use all three stances. I use the light mostly for defence, the heavy to attack those headless chickens who just spinn all over the place. I use medium stance for everything else. But switch alot between them durring a fight depending on the range. I have the stance function on a handy key so I can switch all the time. If you have problems killing a player in a saber duel don't cry and call him a whore... just practice and work out a tactic against his particular style.... otherwise just die with bloody dignity.

The saber duels are great, there is nothing to exploit... try to exploit one move and you'll find yourself dead very fast. Surprise your opponent and you have a better chance of winning...predictability is your worst enemy in a saber duel and THAT is the best anti whore system... so please.

n0th1ng
04-08-2002, 03:23 PM
bump, red stance needs to be powered down

freonsmurf
04-08-2002, 03:31 PM
that move has a huge wind up, easily avoidable, use tatics and dont let yourself get caught in small places.

not sure what server your playing on, but anyone with a strong stance only dominates with the heavy sideways swings

I use heavy stance, but I dont use this move, unless its a finisihing blow forea guy on the ground.
dont try to block it!

its fine, work around it dont cry patch or fix

try spawning a rebornfencer and work on owning a heavy stance =0

Dark_One
04-08-2002, 03:34 PM
It's balanced. It's slower then the others but stronger. Blue is faster but weaker. And yellow is regular.

You can counter the red stance by throwing your saber when the enemy attacks.

Try it. I always win against strong stance people with yellow stance.

MrCrusher
04-08-2002, 03:45 PM
Yeah I've noticed this bug as well. Wait almost a full second after the moves animation is complete (1000 pings) then move in for the counter lung and Wack! I'm dead.

In an no-force match, stay well away from the move and then roll quickly in for a hit. BTW, Raven did an exellent job with duck and rolls it gives a nice defensive/evasive advantage.

Personally I think the strong style or any style attack should be "jam-able". If an opponent starts a long strong swing and you hit him with a good quick hit it should interupt the swing as a parry, block, knock-back or hit. It seems that you can get a hit off but then your down to 20 health as the strong swipe follows thru.

Raven needs to add one more stance to the game "The defensive stance" A stance that will block all attacks from front and light attacks from the back. In this stance you cannot attack, maybe only Knock-back (a push in the form of a head butt, sabre butt or shoulder). Maybe the special move could be an evasive cartwheel or arial.

Anyway, using strong stance primarily is the easy way for a lucky kill.

P.S. Raven also needs to add a different key for each stance instead of on key for all.

Trienco
04-08-2002, 04:03 PM
talking about countering with yellow. usually you would just strafe to the side and attack. the problem (hope it's just my connection): he's still 2m away and i die. i already stepped aside and he clearly misses and i die. so the only thing i can do is run _far_ away because i never know where he 'really' is on the server. well, have to live with it when i'm not playing on a lan *g*

btw. is it just me or should the backstab be a bit more powerful? right now it seems to be a complete waste of time to turn your back to an enemy and use this special. hitting someone with both blue special attacks still wont kill him while a red 'standard' attack does a lot more damage.

Tree
04-08-2002, 04:40 PM
I would like to see these servers where everyone is owning strong stance player so post the IP's please. I will come and get some tips.

Strong stance is not as bad on FF server, just use saber throw.

In FFA and NF duel the strong stance is too good.

If a strong stance players is a total and complete newb then yes he is easy to kill.

Most of the strong stance players I play keep you at bay with there range. They swing, backup swing again. You never get a chance to move in. If you guys are fast enough to move in on a strong stance player who has just swung then we are playing 2 different games. Even with roll. You are forced to stay back due to the extreme range. They simply recover way to fast. They move the same speed as you do.

I say this as someone who used to use strong stance, till I realized how it took no skill to rack up the kills. I've heard a lot of good medium stance players say the same, they quit using it because they realized how ghey it was.

It is beyond easy to swing and back up keeping them at bay.

I wont even comment on the total whores who only do the one hit one kill :/

Every single strong stnace person I have seen try medium gets absolutely killed. Or if another strong stance person comes along they also get murdered.

It takes far more skill to own with medium stance then it does strong stance.

I want to see where strong stance people get consistantly owned by medium stance. I have been playing since day one and I have yet to see it.

So please post the IP's.

NeonSamurai
04-08-2002, 04:52 PM
Personaly i dont have much of a problem with that move other then the fact that the move has full damage effects untill the guy gets up which i think is rather silly.. been a few times i died because i accidentaly steped on the saber while it was on the ground. Realisticly (well as realistic as you can get with a weapon that doesnt exist) i think the damage effects from that move should stop the moment the saber is on the ground as all momentum and power from that move is lost at that point.

But hitting them when they are crouched i havent had any problems with as long as i dont step on the saber.

Oh and as far as light being somewhat less balanced i tend to agree its realy only slightly faster then medium and the damage output is quite worse. That and i havent found the parry abilities to be any better or worse then the others.

enDless_Deliriu
04-08-2002, 04:54 PM
Maybe this was just a fluke occurence, but I've managed to "block" the heavy special attack with the lightstance lunge before. I'm not sure how, but I knew I'd hit the guy before, and wanted to see if my lunge could kill him before he hit me. I went at the last second, and my saber went up just as his started coming down and we ended up in a saber lock. Not the best counter, but still, it's better than being killed or having to run away so they can try it again.

In duels, I usually use all three stances. I'll use Heavy for that first hit, or to keep the range balanced if the other person is just using heavy attacks. But I'll also switch to medium and light and try to get past their optimum range and get some hits in.

I've yet to see anyone win 100% of the time, or win "easily" against someone just using heavy stance, maybe I'm just playing on the wrong server. Still, I want to research to see if the light stance lunge can counter that heavy jump attack by putting you into a saber lock.

It is annoying that the move is still deadly even with the saber buried in the ground. (btw, I'd also like to see these server IPs where it's No Force and people are regularly kicking the crap out of people who just use Heavy Stance and one hit kill. I want to find good places to play, and that looks like it'd be good)

Pol Favre
04-08-2002, 04:54 PM
tips can be had right here. read through, most people tell what they do to avoid heavy-whores.

just use light or medium stance and wait for their swing to completely finish, then engage quickly and pull back again.


im not whining about it's power, im whining about how boring it is to whoop their asses.

Sithcloak
04-08-2002, 04:57 PM
I have also noticed the unbalance and bugs that are in heavy stance. I hope that they are fixed soon with a patch. I'm tired of getting hit by heavy stance swings when the saber seems to be a foot away!

Sithcloak

GalacticBulge
04-08-2002, 04:58 PM
Guys, h71y6 wasn't talking about a Strong Stance imbalance, he was talking about taking a one-hit-kill from an overhead swipe AFTER the swipe was completed, which = a bug (or lag). Granted you should still take damage from the saber, but there's no way in hell it should be a one hit kill.

kerosene31
04-08-2002, 05:55 PM
I've seen the same problem. I agree that it might be a lag issue. When my ping is good, I can avoid the strong stance fairly well. However once things get laggy, I get taken out all the time. The worst kind of opponent is someone who uses the strong stance and has a ping of 350 :(

I've been taken out even when I've been as much as 6-8 feet away from my attacker.

h71y6
04-08-2002, 06:14 PM
lag? hmmm... it very well could be. I never really considered that but it makes sense.

Oh and about stepping on the saber. I don't think it's that reliable. I never go straight in head on to a guy who has just finished the move. Instead, i would go in from his side, so his saber which is on the ground is perpendicular to you, and yet it is usually fatal. I have resided to the fact that if you move in to a guy with his saber on the ground after executing that move, you have 50-50 chance you'll hurt him or he'll kill you. Now to take a chance on that, i would be silly.

Tree
04-08-2002, 06:30 PM
Originally posted by Pol Favre
tips can be had right here. read through, most people tell what they do to avoid heavy-whores.

just use light or medium stance and wait for their swing to completely finish, then engage quickly and pull back again.


im not whining about it's power, im whining about how boring it is to whoop their asses.

Give me the IP of where you normally play.

Thats all I want, cause frankly I don't believe it.

I have yet to see it. Consistantly.

If the strong stance people you play against give you a chance to get inside on them, well, frankly they must be really terrible.

I've said this before on a similar thread.

Bringing a medium stance against heavy is like bringing a light stance against medium. A joke. Don't get me wrong it is possible for medium to kill strong and light to kill medium, it happens a good deal. It just takes WAY more skill to kill in a weaker stance.

Thats the problem, thats why its unbalanced.

Maybe they should have a server option to set it as one stance only. That would be fine with me.

Swamp
04-08-2002, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by n0th1ng
bump, red stance needs to be powered down


negative, you power down the red stance and you'll have another yellow

Swamp
04-08-2002, 06:35 PM
Originally posted by Pol Favre
im not whining about it's power, im whining about how boring it is to whoop their asses.



:rolleyes: please, if that was the real problem you wouldn't be complaining about it

h71y6
04-08-2002, 06:38 PM
I must disagree, tree. To be honest, i fear a light/medium dueller more than a heavy. I have played against excellent players who can use all three stances but primarily stick to heavy. They make formidable opponents, and usually it makes for very exciting matches. To say that they win all the time is exaggerated.

Again, there is no imbalance in my opinion, just an irritating bug(?) with the affect of the saber after the move. I met a guy who used light stance and beat a really good heavy stance guy. And i myself have used light in many occasions to victory.

P.s. I don't want this informative thread to turn into another rant.

Pol Favre
04-08-2002, 07:20 PM
Give me the IP of where you normally play.

Thats all I want, cause frankly I don't believe it.

I have yet to see it. Consistantly.

If the strong stance people you play against give you a chance to get inside on them, well, frankly they must be really terrible.

I've said this before on a similar thread.

Bringing a medium stance against heavy is like bringing a light stance against medium. A joke. Don't get me wrong it is possible for medium to kill strong and light to kill medium, it happens a good deal. It just takes WAY more skill to kill in a weaker stance.

Thats the problem, thats why its unbalanced.

Maybe they should have a server option to set it as one stance only. That would be fine with me.


are you saying i don't have the skill?

the point is that it's annoying when n00bs use it, because they use it without skill and leave themselves open whiles they run about flailing and jump-diving repeatedly. it gets very boring.

i just figured out how to counter it a day ago, so once i've tried it in a few more games i'll give you my IP address and whoop up on you if you want.

MysteriousJedi
04-08-2002, 07:34 PM
i use this move kind of often. i dont rely on it and i am good with saber when not using it, but when i see an opportunity to use it i will. anyway in my experience you can easily dodge it. its probably not the best idea to tell you this but it can be countered fairly easily as well. people usually just back up, but if you do a semicircle to their side they will miss you and you can slash them while they are crouched and open. if they use that bug where it will kill coming up you can jump to avoid that part of it. everytime i do that move i fear someone will figure out how to do that but it seems they cant get the timing down. ive killed people this way a few times so i know you can counter it.

Agen
04-08-2002, 07:36 PM
Considering you're experienced and know how to tiem this right :p , you cna easily roll under them while they're in the air swinging and turn quickyl and jsut before they land throw your saber and there's a not bad chance it will hurt :) also roll out of the way or force push soemone with heavy, another good thing is lunge at them while they'ye ocming down to bring it to a saber lock :)

Dark_One
04-08-2002, 07:43 PM
Originally posted by MrCrusher

Raven needs to add one more stance to the game "The defensive stance" A stance that will block all attacks from front and light attacks from the back. In this stance you cannot attack, maybe only Knock-back (a push in the form of a head butt, sabre butt or shoulder). Maybe the special move could be an evasive cartwheel or arial.


This is a great idea. The defensive stond won't offer any attack except the kick and a hit with the back of the saber. This attack should also drain force power or else every body will be using it.

Or they can make the combo's like the lunge and the medium and heavy stance trick inflict low damage.

Dark_One
04-08-2002, 07:44 PM
Originally posted by MrCrusher

Raven needs to add one more stance to the game "The defensive stance" A stance that will block all attacks from front and light attacks from the back. In this stance you cannot attack, maybe only Knock-back (a push in the form of a head butt, sabre butt or shoulder). Maybe the special move could be an evasive cartwheel or arial.


This is a great idea. The defensive stond won't offer any attack except the kick and a hit with the back of the saber. This attack should also drain force power or else every body will be using it.

Or they can make the combo's like the lunge and the medium and heavy stance trick inflict low damage. And the regular attacks won't do damage. Except if you do a stab in the back.

aletoledo
04-08-2002, 08:59 PM
I don't think anything is wrong with the red stance except this one hit kill. it'd be nice to hear ravens opinion on this matter, to see if this was intended or not. I could live with it then.

I don't believe anyone saying that they have damage anyone well they were at the end of the one-hit-kill swing. I've tried it numerous times and its never worked. I've only managed a hit after they've stood up and moved off. I suspect that many of you thinking you've hurt someone doing this have actually just attacked a normal jumping slash down attack.

Cracken
04-08-2002, 09:15 PM
Sure, the patented n00bmove pisses me off, but at least it's over quickly. What I hate more are the guys who take a swing at you, then back off, then take another swing, whittling down your health to the point of no recovery. Then, if they do the n00bmove as a coup de grace, I begin to weep.

RabidPlatypus
04-08-2002, 09:21 PM
I use strong stance 1 on 1 but I barely ever use the overhead unless as a last resort. Usually I charge with a horizontal slash or if they are charging me I use an upwards diagonal slash. Of course, if I kick someone to the ground I'm going to take the oppurtunity to overhead a saber right through them.

camp3r
04-08-2002, 09:40 PM
i have to agree.. just about nothing more annoying than a strong stancer that just swings then backpeddles, swings then backpeddles, rinse and repeat. i usually just run off and leave them to themselves.

aletoledo
04-08-2002, 11:20 PM
I think many of you are still missing the point....its not the red/heavy stance that one hit takes away 100 points of armor/health...its the attack that takes away 300 points. you really have to see it once or twice to know we're talking about, since its really just started to get going this past weekend.

Guardian Omega
04-08-2002, 11:59 PM
I know the heavy hit does 100, but the special does 300?!?!?:freakout:

Tree
04-09-2002, 12:25 AM
Originally posted by Cracken
Sure, the patented n00bmove pisses me off, but at least it's over quickly. What I hate more are the guys who take a swing at you, then back off, then take another swing, whittling down your health to the point of no recovery. Then, if they do the n00bmove as a coup de grace, I begin to weep.

Thats exactly what I have been talking about. The swing/backoff thing.

This is the only thing I ever see strong stance ppl doing.
I'm talking bout NF duels and FFA's here.

Apparently everyone here knows how to counter it.

But its absolutely amazing as much as I have play I have never seen these medium/light stance ppl who OWN strong stance ppl.

Guess I'm just playing on the wrong servers. :rolleyes:

I'm not saying the red stance totally owns everyone hands down. It's just not balanced.

I think they need to do more than just fix that one gay jump move.

Well I'm done crying about it now :)

I just hope Raven does something about it.

h71y6
04-09-2002, 12:52 AM
you're right tree. You're at the wrong servers! :D
I just finished playing and we had a duel where everyone who stayed till the end were medium or light. Everyone that uses strong came and left in a hurry when they found themselves losing often.

Tree
04-09-2002, 01:02 AM
Give the IP.

Pls

MorpheusX
04-09-2002, 06:19 PM
I have somewhat mixed feelings on the whole "red is overpowered" statement. I do think that it's range makes it very hard to attack against, because if someone knows how to swing the hard stance right, they create a large area of "don't touch this" around themselves. However, I've seen people (and am learning myself) who will use medium and light stance and rush down a hard stancer hard....it's just a matter of knowing when to roll in and put pressure on.

The jumping unblockable over and over again is lame, I will not argue this fact. I do admit that I am a hard stance wh0re, and I've learned very well how to duck and weave with the stance and hit people quite often. I do occasionally use the leap forward lunge attack, but very rarely, and only as a surprise tactic. I'm definitely not one of those guys who constantly bounces around in the unblockable trying to take people out, and my experience has been that any dueler that tries that tactic is SO owned if you know how to sidestep slice. Yes they can re-aim, but if you do a sweeping red slash and sidestep past the person while they're in the "poking sword in the ground" animation, they get hit down to 20 health (or killed), and you tend to get off scott free...especially if you do a backwards roll if your slash misses, so he can't hit you by accident with that stupid unblockable.

Red vs Red ends up being a battle of who knows how to dance. The back up lunge in is a powerful attack, and I've found not very many people use it effectively.

Red vs Yellow yellow can win if yellow looks for the sweep, then rolls in and puts on a quick rushdown. Yellow can get 3 fast hits in before red can recover from a slash, and if Yellow can do a backwards jump or roll if the red slash starts coming in again, yellow can easily dodge out before the red hits. Rinse, repeat, and yellow should be able to win.

Red vs Blue I don't have many words of wisdom. I've had a couple of people get in REALLY close and just keep me pinned with Blue attacks before I could retaliate, and I died, but it's pretty rare. Most of the time if someone goes blue against me and has any kind of advantage I roll out and switch to yellow for speed.

Hope this helps....not trying to rag on too many people but my honest feeling is that those who're whoring Red stance's unblockable are just scrubs waiting to die. Those whoring Red stance in general are not being "cheap" or "unfair", because quite frankly, it can be beaten if you know what you're doing. I'd consider myself one of the better red saberists I've seen, and I have been beaten by good saberists of all types, when they did the right moves.

[-BB-]Morpheus online
www.burningblade.org
We've got a duel server up, so some good players should meet me there and show me tricks I haven't learned yet. :)

Zariyn
04-09-2002, 06:56 PM
I don't mind the ublockable one-hit kill jump attack. The move I hate is the horizontal swipe. Swing, backpedal, swing, backpedal, over and over. Toss in Drain and you have a virtually invincible combination if the player knows what he/she is doing. I can dodge all I like, but that doesn't help me kill him any. I usually go for a kick to the face, followed by a forward+slash (yellow stance), followed by another kick (or push) if they haven't retreated. This combo usually puts me in good shape as far as the fight goes.

I'd like to see them make the unblockable jump attack in heavy unable to turn at all when executing it. Straightfoward jump, no turning/moving until the animation is finished. I think the other heavy attacks should have somewhat limited mobility as well, requiring the user to take the mobility hit for the added power in their swing.

DarkEra
04-10-2002, 10:26 PM
I've noticed this too, it just seems like the hit-boxes are a bit too big at the end.

Dark_One
04-10-2002, 10:40 PM
*The red stance swing backoff and repeating it isn't lame. It's strategie is would we stupid to stand there and wait untill you can hit again.
*You can even begin judging the other stances i people could play with them.
*And it's easy to counter us reddie's by throwing etc...
*But my tactic is a little bit complecated. It's a combination of all 3 stances :)

Tree
04-10-2002, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by MorpheusX
I have somewhat mixed feelings on the whole "red is overpowered" statement. I do think that it's range makes it very hard to attack against, because if someone knows how to swing the hard stance right, they create a large area of "don't touch this" around themselves. However, I've seen people (and am learning myself) who will use medium and light stance and rush down a hard stancer hard....it's just a matter of knowing when to roll in and put pressure on.

This is the ONLY way I have found to deal with strong stance ppl.

You try to play the distance game and you will get messed up.

In close fighting can kinda be tough cause its kind of buggy. Thats part of the reason I think it works. If you swing and miss then its tough to get out in time.

I must say though Morpheus this is the first pro-red argument that sounds like it comes from someone who actually plays multiplayer. Refreshing.

I still think it takes more skill for a light/medium stance to beat a strong stance.

I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.

h71y6
04-11-2002, 12:02 AM
Bleh... this tread was created to point out the aftereffect bug of the unblockable move, not the imbalance of the strong stance.

Tree
04-11-2002, 12:26 AM
Yes if you go back through and look at my post I explained.....

Its not a bug its the extreme range of the stance. The reach goes beyond the end of the saber.

Then I went on *****ing about how the extreme range makes the stance gay in general........

Sorry:D

gaeb
04-11-2002, 06:01 PM
I've been playing primarily with Bots (I don't want to get back into net games until I get good again... :vadar: ...) and I know that if I don't put any points into Saber Throw, I can't throw my saber.

If that's also the case with Saber Offense (I've never gone with less than full points in it, I'll try that when I get home) and Strong Stance, then I think it's perfectly balanced. 8 points for a stance that's slow as all heck... but the damage output is very rewarding. It takes a lot more skill to catch someone with a move that slow on open ground, IMO. Tap backward roll / force push / jump and the move's effect is negated. Or front and sideways roll.... I'm having a lot of fun with the bots !!!

So my question is : Don't you have to pay (8 points) for the ability (Saber Offense : 3) to use this stance? The way the game was meant to be played (With force, as opposed to without) that is.

Just a question!

- Gaeb

MorpheusX
04-11-2002, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Tree


This is the ONLY way I have found to deal with strong stance ppl.

You try to play the distance game and you will get messed up.

In close fighting can kinda be tough cause its kind of buggy. Thats part of the reason I think it works. If you swing and miss then its tough to get out in time.

I must say though Morpheus this is the first pro-red argument that sounds like it comes from someone who actually plays multiplayer. Refreshing.

I still think it takes more skill for a light/medium stance to beat a strong stance.

I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise.

I agree, the rushdown is the only way to stop hard stance unless you are good enough to do hard stance better than the other guy (usually my tactic) or you catch him off guard with the unblockable, which I try to avoid unless I'm trying to switch it up, as I feel it is a pretty cheesy move. I do admit, I'll use it in a duel rarely just to throw a scare into my opponent and let him know I CAN pull the move and for the "messing with the mind" factor.

If you aren't a red stance user? Don't like the unblockable? Learn when to rush in. If you see the red slice coming, switch to blue, roll toward them, start swinging, jump out before his second slice comes in. If you do it right you should be able to do significant damage to him and get away unscathed.

It is tough to get out in time, but that's what roll and backwards jump are for. I duel often, and play a lot of CTF, and if I see my swing miss and it looks like his has even half a chance of hitting? I bail out...jump backwards, roll sideways, whatever I need to do to NOT be in the way of the sword. Dueling for me is a dance, and my job is to dance away from your sword and make you dance into mine....simpler in theory than practice, but it's my thought process as I play.

Tree: Thanks for the compliment....it does irk me to see a bunch of people who haven't even played multiplayer complaining about bugs they don't understand. Especially since a talented saberist CAN beat EVERY stance and EVERY move possible....people just complain because they don't know how or feel it's unfair because it beats them too often. Tip for everyone: It may not be the MOST balanced thing in the universe, but it can be beaten, and it's not that hard, so learn what you're not doing and start doing it.

Tree (again): I agree, I give people who can kill my red stance with yellow or blue mad credit, because it's NOT easy to get in close to a red stancer unless you know what you're doing. My yellow stance is getting considerably better and I'm begining to understand how to rush a red stancer down....yeah...it's hard...requires a lot of skill...can be done...and looks clean as heck when you do it. I won't try to convince you otherwise, but I will say being a red stancer, knowing the timing behind when to swing against a GOOD dueler and not getting hit also requires a good deal of talent.....basically it may be easy for a newb to get a lot of kills with red stance, but in a good fight between two good duelers, red stance is going to have a hard time without some real talent behind it, because the slowness of the stance will get the dueler owned.

DrNutz
04-11-2002, 10:11 PM
I've dueled with morph and I'd have to agree that he's pretty good. I've done a bit of work figuring out the stances, and I have to agree that he's got the explanations about right. Personally I normally don't play as one stance, all of them have something that is of utmost usefulness, when used together. The unblockable... I use it, here and there. It's got it's place, but definately counterable. While playing last night I got 0wned a few times trying to pull it where the guy recognized what was coming and rushed me down... I was dead before I finished the swing. The specials are all useful in thier place, but wh***** them out just makes you a great big target. (this goes for the medium special too)

I would just like to say that I'm getting sick of hearing everyone cry and moan about how unbalanced this game is. Raven has done a good job at trying to keep things as even as possible. The only problem... YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO USE EVERYTHING THE WAY IT WAS MEANT TO BE USED! Everything has a counter, although some are harder to master than others. Put some time in and learn these things, otherwise I don't want to hear it anymore.

Have a beer and quit moaning!

[FoB]DrNutz