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BeastMaster
09-11-2001, 07:47 PM
*is startled to note that there's no thread already*

A moment of silence for the >1000 dead in the wreckage of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, and the four airliner crashes.

I'll wait for someone else to summarize (I'm on a clock, here), but life for everyone on Earth is changed irrevocably.

It's sad to say, but I don't think there's much chance of avoiding WWIII. An all-out war between the (now p*ssed-off to the point of madness) US and anybody will almost certainly wipe out a significant portion of the planet.

It ends here. If anyone resorts to weapons-backed Rule of Vengeance, nobody's walking away.

Y'know what the real Hell of it is?

If the human race was wiped out completely, I honestly couldn't bring myself to mourn. :(

Rogue15
09-11-2001, 08:44 PM
IF only the u.s. would've been READY. i bet from no on, whoever says they'll attack the u.s. will get their ass kicked out of them. i bet nobody's goin'a cry wolf anytime soon..

Tie Guy
09-11-2001, 09:59 PM
I don't think we are heading towards WWIII. This is for several reasons.

1.If they wanted to attack us militarily, why not use missles or something else, not hijacked airplanes. Also, they would have attack the Pentagon more heavily, and other bases. NO, they did this to make a statment, not to start a war.

2. No group could stand up against the allies now. Before, when germany attempted to seize power, they had many allies, and a powerfull army. Now, the third-world countries that threatened us today don't have strong armies, and don't have powerful allies, or even a really charismatic leader. Nope, any resistence would be crushed, without much trouble i think.

3. If we started a war, it wouldn't be a WORLD war, just a small one like desert storm or something, maybe a little bigger.

Saying that, WE will probably go to war with whoever did that, then littereally "drop the bomb" on them and he war would be over. Sure, we will most definately retaliate, and in full force, but that doesn't mean war, it just means someones gonnna get rocked....HARD!

Kurgan
09-11-2001, 10:43 PM
The way I see it, if one tiny country did this (assuming it wasn't China or Russia, who would be a match for the US in an all out war) we could literally kick their butt back to the stone age if we really wanted to.

That's not the issue. The way in which WWIII would start is if it were not just us against one nation or band of terrorists, but us (United States) and our allies verses them and THEIR allies. That's how both world wars started. They could have just been between two or three nations, but instead they were with the whole world because everybody had an alliance with somebody else (with only a few exceptions).

That is what I'm worried about primarily, since I was lucky not to be in any of the danger zones, or have family/friends there. But I feel very sorry for those who had to suffer because of these madmen.

Kurgan

Pedro The Hutt
09-11-2001, 11:05 PM
I don't see why we're arguing about wether there'll be a war or not, or who did this, I think all we have to do right now is mourn the thousands of souls that departed today.

ESE_Sithlord
09-12-2001, 12:17 AM
(No message)

Kylilin
09-12-2001, 03:03 AM
I think there should be a time to mourn, this day we have seen devestation the likes of which we have not seen since Pearl Harbor.

But...I also think the time for retribution will soon be at hand. I don't think a major war will break out over this, but I do beleive that the United States will not be the only country country to wage war, we already have many allies.

I suppose if Osama Ben Laden is held responsible, the first course of action will be to impose economic sanctions upon Afghanastan or at least demand that Ben Laden be handed over to us, if that doesn't work, then I beleive the Allied forces will attack.

I also beleive that whomever is responsible for this cowardly attack does not fully understand the power of the United States, they have awoken a sleeping giant, and now they will pay for it.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Kylilin ]

Kurgan
09-12-2001, 04:12 AM
I don't think we should place blame until we know for sure who did the bloody deed.

Besides, don't we already have sanctions against Afghanistan?

This is worse than Pearl Harbor for two reasons

1) More people killed/injured

2) These were unarmed civilians at work in office buildings, and on passenger planes that were attacked, not soldiers at a military base.

Until we know more, we can't say. Sure Osma Bin Laden is at the top of our suspect list, but he's just an obvious target, it could be him, or he could just be a decoy and it could be somebody else. But whoever is responsible, we'll find out and I hope their justice is swift.

I hope and pray that this is not a cause for war and more killing...

I believe it is far more important to help the victims of this tragic attack and start the long and painful process of rebuilding our lives and cities than pursuing revenge on these murderers, but that will come.

There is a lot at stake here.. stopping terror in the world, maintaining peace in our lands, maintaining our security, and protecting our freedom. All of these are now at risk because of these devestating events.

Kurgan

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

andy_nighthawk
09-12-2001, 06:45 AM
I agree with pedro.

May the force be with everyone.

Worf
09-12-2001, 10:47 AM
The problem is if they hand over their leader is someone will just replace him.

The entire group has to be wiped out or else there will be further attacks.

May the force be with all the innocent people injured and killed yesterday.

Worf

Drivian Taluus
09-12-2001, 12:02 PM
:mad: This...is terrible... I was at home when it happened watching the NBC Today show when they said that there had been an incident at the WTC. Then a commercial break. Then I saw what had happened. My initial thoughts, terrorists, the scum of the earth. Then I checked every other channel and they all showed the same thing. Minutes passed. Then another explosion, this time on the south tower. More time passes. Another crash, at the Pentagon. Then I watched in complete and utter disbelief as the south tower collapses, taking more than a thousand lives with it. Then the north tower falls. The events of September 11, 2001 will not be forgotten, but I believe that if we set aside our petty differences and work together, we can find the evil that perpetrated these terrible deeds, bring them to swift justice, and rebuild the confidence of our nation.
God bless America. :)

Kurgan
09-12-2001, 01:49 PM
The problem is if they hand over their leader is someone will just replace him.
The entire group has to be wiped out or else there will be further attacks.


I do not advocate killing innocent people as the terrorists did. Not just the leader, but all of those responsible need to be held accountable.

May all of those responsible be brought to justice for these crimes.

Kurgan

Rogue15
09-12-2001, 02:13 PM
i can't help but say, someone's taken jenga too far...

Worf
09-12-2001, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan:
<STRONG>

I do not advocate killing innocent people as the terrorists did. Not just the leader, but all of those responsible need to be held accountable.

May all of those responsible be brought to justice for these crimes.

Kurgan</STRONG>

I did not mean killing everyone in the middle east, by group I ment the entire terrorist faction that was involved with the attack.

Worf

MadPoster
09-12-2001, 07:37 PM
I have to say I feel the same way. What happened should result in a swift, brutal response on by the US, to the point of invading Afghanistan to grab Bin Ladin (if he is involved in any way, shape or form).

Better yet, just hunt down every terrorist organization and wipe them out to the last man, along with anyone that puts themselves in the way. Any other response is just begging to let this happen again.

We have tried to reason with these (and I use the term loosely) people, and this is the end result. Death of more than one thousand civillians. Destruction of 3 major buildings, and damage to a dozen more. The US has never intentionally targeted civilians. Time for some payback for this.

The price of freedom has always been blood. Time to make those that would take it away pay their share of the butcher's bill.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: MadPoster ]

Kylilin
09-12-2001, 09:31 PM
I got this today in my inbox, it is slightly relevant to this discussion, but nonetheless, it is thought provoking:


The following, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing.
Its subject is America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record:

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.
When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help.
This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy
pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon-not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.
When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake.
Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."
Stand proud, America!

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Kylilin ]

rapina
09-13-2001, 01:56 AM
nice, but hemmm..
lets get back to reality

if USA doesn't want more of this, they need a LOT less enemies...
just look how some palestinian people celebrate on the streets.
let remmember that if we were in the late 60's the celebration would be in Viet-Nam, if we were in the years of the Argentina vs. British war (were US give support to the English) the celebration would be in Buenos Aires, if we where in the days of the invation of ... well, to make it short. it would be a lot easier , and with less blood spread, if USA could figure out how to have less enemies.
one tip: attitude
pretending been the "world cops" doesnt help at all.
-----------
what scare the sh** out of me, is the inteligence of this terrorist. lets pray that he doesn't have another "die hard" movie type of idea.


PS. soviet union also wanted to get to the moon, and the succes of the NASA is thanks to a ex-nazi scientist, same in CCCP.

oninosensi
09-13-2001, 01:57 AM
I got that as well. Very true words.

Posted by Madposter:
The price of freedom has always been blood. Time to make those that would take it away pay their share of the butcher's bill.

As long as it is directed to those responsable. Killing civilians would only lower us to their level.

rapina
09-13-2001, 01:59 AM
blood?
I'm more into Ghandi type of "fight for freedom", it makes more sense to me.

Pedro The Hutt
09-13-2001, 02:10 AM
Same here Rapina. :)

Kylilin
09-13-2001, 02:23 AM
So you are saying that this attack is OUR FAULT, are you crazy?

Gabrobot
09-13-2001, 02:42 AM
Some where earlier someone said something about the US never killing inocent people, what about The couple nukes droped on japan for instance? Oh, the US just ACCIDENTLY droped that and killed an extremmly high number of inocent people! :mad:

There are plenty more instances of this kind that no one seems to care about, and yet when something like that happens to the US then suddenly it's noticed how horrible it is!

How would a Jedi react in a situation like this? A Jedi resorts to violents ONLY WHEN THERE IS NO OTHER ALTERNATIVES!!!!!!

Kylilin, what happened was very, VERY horrible, that thousands of people were killed, but if the US tried to work towards PEACE, and not PROFITS then these things SHOULD NEVER, NEVER HAPPEN!!!!!!!!

However doing what was done was still EXTREMLY evil and illexcuseble.

[ September 12, 2001: Message edited by: Gabrobot ]

rapina
09-13-2001, 04:21 AM
remmember:
who helped Fidel Castro to beat Fulgencio Batista?
Who trianned Bin Laden to fight the Soviet in the Afganistan war?

the same guys the "Dr. Frankensteins":
C.I.A. of U.S.A.

sigh

thats why the best idea here is to use Ghandi tactics, those ALWAYS works. violence leads to shots in the foot.
keep that in mind.

Kylilin
09-13-2001, 04:46 AM
OK, while the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, were devestating and terrible, and much worse than tuesday's events, but that was war. This was a deliberate act of terrorism specifically targeted on civilians, Hiroshima and Nagasaki both had some form of Military bases within the city limits. And while I think the deployment of these two Atomic weapons was inexcusable, it was part of war. And by the way, we issued a warning before we dropped those bombs. Its called the Potsdam Ultimatum, look it up.

I don't think the Unites States should be shunned for trying to make a profit, thats the name of the game in international politics. If Afghanastan was the richest country in the world, don't you think they would be looking out for themselves? Of course. Every country looks out for itself first and foremost, is it our fault that we just do it better than everyone else?

antilles
09-13-2001, 11:23 AM
I am a young senior high student in Taiwan.
All my class watch the news all night(when NY is 9 am, we r 9 pm)
Oh, my god!

God bless America.
And may the Force be with you.

Borg Collective
09-13-2001, 04:41 PM
We mourn as well.

Among the Collective, the loss of even 3000 drones is a minor irritation; the Collective consciousness itself will survive.

For a species like yours, made up of individuals, every single life is irreplacable.

rapina
09-13-2001, 06:53 PM
quote:

"If Afghanistan was the richest country in the world, don't you think they would be looking out for themselves?"


Kylilin,

u need to read a LOT about history, i cant speak in behalf of other
countries but this is a little example:

every 13 of September (today) , Mexico celebrates the day of the "nios Heroes"
basically, it was a battle of the last military facility in Mexico city
against the US army, but that facility was nothing but a military
college, full of kids that defended the Mexican flag with their
lives. people from Argentina, Cuba, Chile, south Asia, the native
americans, and god knows where or who else can tell you about
quote:
"that we just do it better than everyone else?"

don't get me wrong, USA has done great things, anyone knows that , is a great country and
all that BUT, they have ALSO done a bunch of unfair and terrible things (military,
economical, politcal, you name it ) several times with a lot of
people/countries/races thru all his history.

one last thing:
since the 1985 Mexico City Earthquake, there is a little group of people
called the "Topos", they have learned and gained skill to dig and find
people dead or alive. they have been in several earthquakes around the
world (India , El Salvador, Turkey, u name it), they always send a fax
to the local embassy of the affected country to offer help, and the only country
that have told them "we call you back" is... : USA.

Kylilin
09-13-2001, 07:17 PM
what does that have to with anything I stated in my past post? and, by the way, I have a B.A. in History and I am currently attending Grad school for it, so don't tell me about reading history.

andy_nighthawk
09-14-2001, 03:23 PM
today is a day of mourning and time to reflect. I'm still not sure I've completely gotten over the events of the last few days.

Gabrobot
09-15-2001, 01:01 AM
Kylilin, you've gotta see some of the pictures of what Japan looked like after the US did the evil act of droping those two nukes on it!

The act by far worse then what happened a couple days ago! And the excuse that is war is a bunch of bull ****!

Not only is droping a couple nukes on a city or running passenger planes into buidings, evil acts, but war itself is evil and USELESS!!!!

All war does it kill inocent individuals and spread destruction! And guess why there is war!
Because of GREED!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

I don't think the Unites States should be shunned for trying to make a profit, thats the name of the game in international politics. If Afghanastan was the richest country in the world, don't you think they would be looking out for themselves? Of course. Every country looks out for itself first and foremost, is it our fault that we just do it better than everyone else?



I'M TALKING ABOUT PROFIT FOR THE ALREADY RICH AND PWERFUL HERE!!!!!!!!!!!!

NOT ONLY DO THEY ROB OTHER COUTRIES BUT US CITIZENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING EXCEPT BECOMING MORE POWERFUL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

But one of the rules of life is that:

Optimazation over maximazation.

The reason?

Quite obvious the more, THE LESS FLEXIBLE!!!!!

When changes occur, the less flexible can't compete with the more flexible!!!!
One of the reasons why humans ARE NOT ALL INTELLIGENT ALL POWERFUL BEINGS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

We will, if we do not unite into an intire WORLD, become extinct!

However if we discard war, violence, greed and the idea that some humans are somehow better then others (i.e. kings, presidents etc.) and become a whole united world, then the types of occurences like the ones on tuesday WOULD NOT HAPPEN!
We could also progress into a very modern speices in technology quickly and explore outwards instead of fight our selves!

Think about it, would you cut off your limbs just so that you could have more blood for the rest of your body? Sounds incredibly dumb and sensless doesn't it? But that's just what the human speices is doing! We stop killing our brothers and stop the sensless civil war, and unite into a single whole: the world.

oninosensi
09-15-2001, 01:09 AM
Why don't we focus on what is important:

a message from LUMTHEMAD.NET, which reads:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
A few men- not more than fifteen, according the information available- armed with knives, with box cutters and threats of bombs. Four civilian aircraft. This, apparently, is all it takes to change the world. That, and hate.

I'm going to talk about love.

The kind of love that lets a man put his two-month-old child into someone else's arms so he can try to help make sure that the doomed aircraft he is riding on is not used as a flying bomb.

The kind of love that makes a firefighter run into a teetering skyscraper in the hope that he can rescue the people trapped inside, only to have that building collapse on him and more than a hundred of his brother firefighters.

The kind of love that allows another firefighter to shrug off his injuries, saying, "Whadya expect? I'm a New Yorker!" and then burst into tears, thinking of his fallen buddy, who has ten children.

The kind of love that creates a convoy of physicians and nurses heading for New York City, riding in Ambulances and their own vehicles, not knowing how much help they can be, but just wanting to help.

The kind of love that causes people the country over to stop and give blood, because that's the only way they can help.

The kind of love that permits a community like ours to put aside everything to come together and stand against those who would harm our own.

This country, and the free world beside us, stands shocked and dismayed. We are angry, and justifiably so. We have been attacked by people with no desire but to make us afraid, to make us hurt, perhaps even to make us hate the way they do. Maybe they do this because they know no other way; I personally do not care for thier motives. I know that whatever thier ultimate goals, they have failed already. They attempted to sow fear, and instead reaped heroism.

We are dealing with people who will die in order to kill, so great is their hate. But they are dealing with a people who will give their lives to save the lives of people they don't even know, so great is our love.

In the end, how can they possibly stand against that?

Sub-Zero
09-15-2001, 01:23 AM
What makes me mad is that is the France isn't backing us upon this. Sure, they helped us out during our revolution, but we turned around and saved them twice in both World Wars. I apologize to anyone on here who is from France, but I am so angry right now at France for not helping us. I say we find any and all people who were involved in these attacks, arrest them, humiliate them, torture them where the whole world can see, and execute them for their crimes....and nobody better stand in our way.

Rogue15
09-15-2001, 02:58 AM
what makes me mad is that !@#$ song being played over and over and over by the !@#$ person. will u please shut the !@#$ up, your singing sucks, i bet that's what really crashed those buildings.

StormHammer
09-15-2001, 10:37 AM
Sub-Zero: I hear what you are saying. However, please keep in mind that it is often governments that make these decisions, not the common people. I am sure many French citizens feel as you do, and really want to help.

Rest assured, that no matter what decisions are made by the UK government, a great many British people also want to help.

Pedro The Hutt
09-15-2001, 12:13 PM
Funny that no one listened to Oni's post ^,^. What's in there is true methinks :)

Kurgan
09-15-2001, 06:44 PM
I said it once, I'll say it again, anyone calling for the shedding of more innocent blood should be ashamed.

I don't think torturing the terrorists (before we execute them anyway) will do anything to stop terrorism, nor will it bring back one dead innocent that was killed on Tuesday.

In the middle ages they had all kinds of horrible tortures, yet they still had all kinds of crime and unrest. In some Islamic countries they cut off your hand if you steal, and cut off your head (slowly) for other crimes.

In other places you can be killed if you speak out against something your government does (Iraq, China, etc).

But the point is that terror like that has NEVER stopped people from committing crimes or rebelling. So it would serve no purpose but to drag us down into the pit of barbarism with the terrorists.

If we are really so much better than the terrorists, we will not seek vengance against innocent people, but only seek to punish the guilty, and we will not revel in our bloodlust.

I agree, there is a lot of truth in the quote that oni posted.

Kurgan

[ September 15, 2001: Message edited by: Kurgan ]

StormHammer
09-16-2001, 02:37 AM
Yeah, Kurgan is right. We've spent hundreds of years trying to outgrow torture and barbarism - we should not demean ourselves by returning to such methods. Fighting fire with fire is one thing - but becoming the fire is something else entirely.

I too was moved by oni's words.

Rogue15
09-16-2001, 05:08 PM
i'm cool. I forgived the terrorist guy, but he'll have to suffer his consequences no matter.

Gabrobot
09-16-2001, 08:05 PM
Yes, Kurgan is very right.

If the US tortured the terrorists or killed a lot of innocent people, not only would we be going down to their level but future terrorists will have more support because of the hate for the US.

Those responsible should fairly tried like any other criminal, before a judge and jury to show that the US hasn't stepted down to their level.

Another thing, every one seems to think these terrorists came from only the middle east, but it looks like some of the terrorists could of come from europe, and some were trained by the US in florida and so forth.

Kurgan
09-16-2001, 08:55 PM
Rumor control:

http://urbanlegends.about.com/library/weekly/aa091101a.htm?PM=59_0103_T

Probably most of you know the details by now, but I just thought I'd post this site link for the benefit of anyone coming late to the discussion. A few of the rumors I'd heard as well were corrected there.

Btw, I had an animated gif of a flying "don't tread on me" flag on a mast, but unfortunately it has a white background.
; P

Kurgan

Sub-Zero
09-17-2001, 01:32 AM
I just found out about an hour ago that France is now supporting us. When exactly did France do this?

Kylilin
09-17-2001, 05:34 PM
I do not think that a massive military strike against Afghanistan would be useful because the mass population of Afghans have nothing to do with this horrendous act. And I would not want to see more innocents die because of a few who are commited to hate.

But...Osama Bin Laden must pay, if not now, in the afterlife.

Gadrobot, do not misunderstand me, I do not want to see more people die who are not responsible. But saying the it is the United States fault for these acts of aggression is ridiculous, we did not bring this on ourselves.

Also, Gadrobot, war is in human nature, be realistic, yes destruction and war is terrible, but it is also sometimes necessary. Sometimes peace is only begotten through war. It is human nature. World War II was not fought over greed, World War II was fought to defeat a great evil. I beleive that a great evil has plagued the Earth once again. This evil has struck against us in an almost unimaginable way. It is our duty as the defenders of righeousness to strike back. All known terrorists must come to justice. And I beleive we should find the people responsible for these acts and make them pay. But, do not punish the innocents for the wicked ways of a few. An invasion of Afghanistan will not accomplish anything.

oh, and Kurgan, I have a picture of that flag, I'll email it to you because I can't get it to show up on the post.

[ September 17, 2001: Message edited by: Kylilin ]

LoganakakWolverine
09-18-2001, 01:06 AM
Thank God they didn't have any atomic bombs to use.

Rogue15
09-18-2001, 01:07 AM
uh....invasion of afghanistan by the usa, would bring freedom to that country. wouldn't it? If we'd take it over? or would it be up to the united nations to decide?

Gabrobot
09-18-2001, 02:09 AM
War is not the human speices true nature, what we're seing in New York right now is the muman speices true nature.

note: I didn't mean the terrorist attack, but the way people are trying to help, and how they risked their lives to try to help other people.

Greed is always the reason for war.
The great evil you talk about in world war II was based on greed. That's what greed is, evil!

If we can't stop all this fighting and killing, then we'll have failed and will become extinct. There will be no escape, we seem never to learn, we are just whirling around and around in a drain that will eventually suck us into darkness forever.

A speices with so much potential will have disapeared because we will have killed our selves, like senselessly pointing a gun at ourselves and pulling the trigger.

We are not, and can never have been smart, if can't do a simple thing: stop mindlessly letting ourselves be brainwashed into hating each other and killing each other.

Kylilin
09-18-2001, 04:15 AM
Gadrobot, you are right, I agree that the entire rescue effort and the overwhelming support by this country of it is part of human nature, but only part. Men have fought and died since the beginning of our very existance. Greed is a part of human nature. It is not a desirable part of our nature, but it is part of each and every one of us. We see it in our everyday lives, but on a small scale, from the clothes we want to the cars we drive. It is in the very core of this country, capitalism is a greedy system, he who has the gold makes the rules. To deny our desires is to deny one of the things that makes us human. Of course a world without greed would be ideal, it is something I think that all of us a a human race should strive for, but that is all it is right now, an ideal, not a reality...

Rogue15
09-18-2001, 09:49 PM
sucks that it takes a trajedy to bring a nation together.

Sub-Zero
09-20-2001, 01:22 AM
I say that when and if we find whoever is responsible for this, we should do three things to them: humilate them, torture them, and finally have them executed. All I want is to make them pay for what they have done.

oninosensi
09-20-2001, 04:06 PM
That would only make a martyr out of them, and make the situation worse, not to mention bringing us down to their level.

Rogue15
09-20-2001, 05:27 PM
ya. Perhaps we should send them to an island, like in the movie, No Escape. hehehe.

MadPoster
09-23-2001, 07:17 PM
The US nuked Japan to stop WWII, because an invasion would have cost both contrys far more. And we are the world cops, because no one else wants the job, or has the capibilty of doing it.

Yes, we have enemies. That will never change, but we can take them out when we need. Or just want to.

And if comes down to being forced to resorting to genocide to stop terrorism, so be it. We have to look out for ourselves, no one else will. Shouldn't have to, all the muslims I know are peaceful people, and hardcore American citizens.

All this is just aspects of being on top of the world's food chain.

And to shut the rest of you up, we do have our faults, and make our mistakes, just like everyone else.

But, we have grown to the point where we would never sanction the death of 5000 civilians, and expect the world not to respond. What happened will not go unpunished, and we will nail Bin Laden and all his cronies. It is just a matter of time.

Everyone on earth has a new enemy: Terrorism.
We work together to stop it, of we all will lose. It is us or them, pick your side, for there will be no bystanders in this World War.

Gabrobot
09-23-2001, 09:44 PM
How come everyone thinks it's Bin Laden?

From the proof, it sounds like some of the terrorists could have come from italy, germany etc.

Also it seems like the only thing that people know about him is that he is a bad, bad person.

Do any of you know where he learned his terrorist tricks?

[ September 23, 2001: Message edited by: Gabrobot ]

Kylilin
09-23-2001, 09:54 PM
yeah, yeah, we all know that it was the United States that initially trained him. And he was trained to combat the Soviet Union, who was then attemtpting to invade Afghanistan, unsuccessfully I might add. But it really does not matter who was responsible for the attacks, he's going down anyway, a little payback for trying to blow up the WTC 8 years ago.

rapina
09-24-2001, 10:01 PM
Non-violence is the law of the human race and is infinitely greater than and superior to brute force.
In the last resort it does not avail to those who do not posses a living faith in the God of Love
Non-violence affords the fullest protection to one?s self-respect and sense of honour, but not always to possession of land or movable property, though its habitual practice does prove a better bulwark than the possession of armed men to defend them. Non-violence in the very nature of things is of no assistance I the defence of ill-gotten gains and immoral acts.
Individuals and nations who would practise non-violence must be prepared to sacrifice (nations to the last man) their all except honour. It is therefore inconsistent with the possession of other people?s countries, i.e. modern imperialism which is frankly based on force for its defence.
Non-violence is a power which can be wielded equally by all-children, young men and women or grown up people, provided they have a living faith in the God of Love and have therefore equal love for all mankind. When non-violence is accepted as the law of life it must pervade the whole being and not be applied to isolated acts.
It is a profound error to suppose that whilst the law is good enough for individuals it is not for masses of mankind

----Mahatma Gandhi

and when i said enemies... im talking about stop been an Empire...
let latin America grow by it own.. no more puppet dictatures like Henry Kissinger supporting Pinochet, now on trial for mass murder(genocide) in Chile, and thats just one example... that only defence 100% bullet proof againt Terrorism... at least from the ouside tho.
one last thing... .
is not the US people but US gov.. and all that can be changed with NO-VIOLENCE
like mexico... finaly with its first President 100% democraticaly elected (is an idiot but oh, well).
after a dictature of 70 years of a little bunch of ******(well not all but the big majority).

Kylilin
09-26-2001, 03:03 PM
Rapina, how naive are you? You fail to remember that you very own country was created through war, so was the United States, so were half the countries on this planet. If there had been no wars, you and I may not have existed.

War is not desireable, but it is necessary

Uutont Fr Uulion
09-26-2001, 07:49 PM
that is true of every country except Australia which was created for a whole bunch of criminals that nobody wanted.

Pedro The Hutt
09-27-2001, 11:48 AM
meh, and I agree with her though. Violence only leads to more violence. So there's just no use in it.

Gabrobot
09-28-2001, 01:27 AM
Kylilin, basicaly what you just said is that war subdivides the earth!

The world should be a whole, not subdivided!

What we have here is a planet in civil war, this civil war keeps things like space exploration from progressing as much as it should. If the world would unite into a whole, we could all work together to make the world a better place for ALL of us!

Oh, and my username is Gabrobot not Gadrobot. :D

Kylilin
09-28-2001, 02:46 AM
I think the last people who thought the world should be united under one system were communists. Hitler and Napoleon also thought that the world should be united under them. Look what happened in all three cases.

Oh yeah, sorry about the name thing, I read your name in haste and that spelling just stuck in my head that way.

[ September 27, 2001: Message edited by: Kylilin ]

Gabrobot
09-29-2001, 02:30 AM
Well when I said that the world should be united as a whole, I didn'e mean united under the rule of anyone.

The world should be run DIRECTLY by the people, and not by someone like Hitler, who wanted to rule the intire world for his own benefits, and screw the rest.

Whenever you have someone who has more power then someone else, there are problems. Now if the person is, like in the case of ants, where the qween ant IS more powerful, and smarter then the other ants, it does work. But when the person is just like someone else(sometimes less, like in the current state of the US :rolleyes: :D ) then it can never work. Most people, if properly informed, can make the right decisions though.

And no bad feelings with the name thing, I know what you mean.

[ September 28, 2001: Message edited by: Gabrobot ]

Kylilin
09-29-2001, 03:04 AM
But the system you suggest is exactly what Communism is, a government run by the people, in which all resources are shared.

Gabrobot
09-30-2001, 01:42 AM
Uh, wasn't the US governmont, in theory, supposed to be run by the people? And what's wrong with sharing resources for the benefit of everyone?

[ September 29, 2001: Message edited by: Gabrobot ]

Kylilin
09-30-2001, 04:28 AM
The ideology of Communism is great, but in practice it is terrible. In order for a nation to become true Communistic nation, it must first go through a stage of Socialism, in which the government provides for the people, which means the Government is totally in charge. This is what happened to the Soviet Union, the government was totally in charge, which is why the United States opposed communism, because the people had little or no power at all.

Even though in the United States the government is centralized, our votes as citizens of this great country give us power over the government.

Tell me, would you rather wait on a line for hours for a loaf of bread distrubuted by a government which you did not choose or would you rather go to the store and buy a loaf of bread with the money you made at the job you work?

Gabrobot
09-30-2001, 08:44 PM
I agree that in indea communsim was fine, but was hardly caried out fine.

However, we have very little power over our governmont, as proved in the last election when the sumpreme court elected Bush.

Kurgan
09-30-2001, 08:51 PM
Actually (if you believe USA Today's recent issues, since the Sept 11th attacks) Al Qaeda and Osama Bin Laden were NOT responsible for the previous 1993 attacks on the WTC. It was actually ANOTHER large terrorist group. I read that in the article they had on "anti-american terrorist groups in the world." There were a handfull of groups with over a thousand members, but the guy who did the previous bombing was not a member of Al Qaeda.

Osama Bin Laden, if he is not guilty of ordering/planning the bombings of the WTC on Sept 11th, the Pentagon, and the other hijacking that may have targetted the White House, etc; is certainly guilty of attacking two American embassies, and killing American citizens in the process. His alleged terrorist manuals also advocate the killing of any American who pays their taxes, and his constant threats to us, along with his past actions are enough to warrant his capture, IMHO. If he is guilty (as the US government believes) of this latest attack, then we can't afford to let him be free to cause this kind of terror in our world.

Again, I just hope that we can do this with as little collateral damage as possible. Without setting off a world war...

Kurgan

Sub-Zero
10-01-2001, 01:56 AM
I don't mean to change the subject, but aren't there some Americans in Afganistan ( I may of misspelled that) who are on trial for lke preaching the word of Jesus? My pastor said something about that today in church and I didn't quite here all of what he said. But I did here him say that they may get the death penalty for doing that.

Kylilin
10-01-2001, 06:34 PM
Yes, I beleive there are 4 women who were arrested and now stand trial in Afghanistan. i beleive they were Catholic missionaries, although don't qoute me on that.

Sub-Zero
10-04-2001, 12:19 AM
I knew they are missionaries, but I don't know what kind they are. Anyway, you guys can get back to the topic you were on.

Gabrobot
10-04-2001, 12:38 AM
I'm waiting for Kylilin's move. :D

Kylilin
10-04-2001, 02:00 AM
heh...don't worry Gabby, it's coming soon...

rapina
10-09-2001, 03:46 AM
no no no y NO...
just because our nations were born tru war, it doesn't mean that war was good, that murder is an option, that we have the right to give or take life.WE are not
GODS.
we Humans beens are meant to grow up, to become better, not to be doing the same
thing we been doing since the Egypt Empire (more than 10,000 years ago).
we shouldn't pay the price for what our grandpa used to do.
war is not acceptable.
war is not an option.
we should unite and judge thru the UN the persons or group of persons(read:
countries) that commit crimes against human race, and not let those so called "army coalition" (READ: GANG) making those "extremely accurate" destruction of Afghans cities and civil people.

heck, terrorist are going to get pissed. thats all, I saw the whole live Press conference of the TalibanEmbasador and he was almost laughing (damn psycho)...
they don't give a rat ass of whatever the civilians are dying or not. they just want more excuses to make a jihad or... who knows what the F.
if u agree with Mahatma Gandhi Philosophy of "no-violence", then u have to follow it ALL YOUR LIFE, and not use it like a umbrella, only when is convenient, therefore,
it needs a lot of sacrifice and like he said:
"Non-violence is impossible without humility."
"True non-violence is mightier than the mightiest violence."
"Perfect non-violence is difficult. It admits no weakness."
"Non-violence requires great patience."
"Non-violence is not a weapon of the weak. It is a weapon of the strongest and
the bravest."
"Non-violence becomes meaningless if violence is permitted for self-defense."
"Non-violence is infinitely superior to violence is permitted for self-defense."
"Mankind has to get out of violence only through non-violence."
"The propagation of truth and non-violence can be done less by books than by
actually living on those principles."
"It is much more difficult to live for non-violence than to die for it."
"The very word Islam means peace, which is non-violence."

and my favorite:

"Non-violence requires more than the courage of the soldier of war."

[ October 09, 2001: Message edited by: rapina ]

Kurgan
10-09-2001, 06:37 PM
And if comes down to being forced to resorting to genocide to stop terrorism, so be it

That is NOT an acceptable solution. Doing extreme evil that good may come of it? Heaven forbid such a thing!

Kurgan

Kylilin
10-09-2001, 06:58 PM
Rapina, no one is suggesting that non-violence is not desirable, but it is an ideal. It is not a reality. Yes, we should strive for non-violence, maybe one day it will be a possibility, but not now.

And, Gabrobot, the last election was indeed unfair, but it is not the norm, personally, I didn't vote for Bush. But what happened is a part of our Electoral process, and we should accept that. But by no means do our votes mean nothing in this country, if they didn't there would be no need for any politician to campaign for office. No government is perfect, and there will never be a perfect government, but the system of Democracy is the best in the world.

ESE_Sithlord
10-09-2001, 07:07 PM
If it wasnt Bin Lidan or however you say his name. Hes still Guilty for what happened earler and hes still a terrorist and we will have Good win this battle over Evil.

Sub-Zero
10-10-2001, 11:49 PM
I don't think the Taliban should be complaining about our bombing of Afganistan. If they would've handed over bin Laden in the first place, we wouldn't be doing this. I have heard that they are calling our bombing a terrorist act, yet the are harboring a terrorist.....what is up with that? And that Taliban have got the U.S., Russia, and China against yet, the three countries that have the largest nuclear arsenals in the world. I know President Clinton has said we will not be using nuclear warfare, but does Afganistan have a nuclear arsenal?

Kylilin
10-11-2001, 12:52 AM
I highly doubt they do, but then again who knows. I do know that Pakistan has Nuclear weapons, and as we all know, Pakistan is Afghanistan's neighbor.

rapina
10-11-2001, 06:21 PM
everybody knows that Gandhi way of do things isnt popular right now, BUT what i realy mean is that all this could be avoided if US had a different way of managment puppet gov. in the world, because they generate hate, and I also know that this sound like if I were talking to a drunk driver that killed a family in a car accident and now is going jail, even tho he is a good person but made a mistake, if I tell him: "thats why drinking+driving is a bad thing" it is useless and doesn't solve nothing.but damn, I cant stop saying it!
things must change because now, terrorism is becoming a valid war tactic. arabs are gatting pissed and read this:
http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?itemid=10676643

very intresting

PS
if no-violence is like comunism (utopia) then we don't deserve to be on this planet in the first place.

[ October 11, 2001: Message edited by: rapina ]

Kylilin
10-11-2001, 07:33 PM
ok, first of all, rapina, no one said that non-violence is like communism, secondly, what does puppet governments have to do with ANYTHING that is going on right now in Afghanistan? Some of the article in that link you posted makes sense, but not all of it, we wouldn't have to conquer Pakistan, they already gave us permission to use their airspace at least. And yes, what is on the line are more American lives.

You know, I bet if you were American, you'd be singing a much different tune. Because everybody I know wants the Taliban and Bin Laden to pay dearly. What Afghanistan needs IS a puppet government so their people aren't starving anymore. And, by the way, the #1 provider of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan is who? thats right boys and girls, the good ol' US of A.

Terrorism has been and always will be a cowards game.

oninosensi
10-11-2001, 10:42 PM
rapina, non-violence is the prefered soultion. Unfortunatly, the boundries have been pushed by bin laden far beyound the forgiving point. The taliban has refused to talk, refused to hand bin laden over. they had a chance, and blew it.

Bin Laden is the head of an organization that murdered 5000 people about one month ago? what would you have us do? lay down our arms and let his cronies kill Americans and our allies at will?

Have you truly missed the fact that any other action is just a slap on the wrist?

This is gone on too long. Someone needs to put a stop to it. And no one else has the manpower or firepower to do anything.

Just being one of the most powerful makes you a target. If you don't defend yourself, you get buried. It would takes billions to have a successful non-violence movement, including high ranking members of Bin Laden's group. I would gladly join if it would not mean the death of freedom.

As Heilein(sp?) wrote in his book Starship Troopers: "The price of freedom will always be in blood." And, like it our not, he is right. Without bloodshed, germany might be ruling all of Europe, and Japan, all of Asia. Without bloodshed, the US of A would not have been born, and might be effectivly a slave colony for England. Without bloodshed, to be black (or at least non-white) in the southern sections of US would be viewed as a hangable offense.

And without bloodshed, Mexico would be a colony of Spain.

Are you aware that the Taliban suppresses its population past the point of poverty? Or that women are kept from getting an education, and are considered property? How does a policy of non violence help them?

Non violence is a path the world needs to take, but until everyone on the planet learns to talk instead of fighting, it just is not feasable.

Ghandi, Martin Luther King jr, and all those that came before, and will follow after. These are the ones we need to revere as heroes. Nobody is arguing this is not the path the world should be following. But it is not what is going on.

At this time, there is only going to be more blood spilled. As to whose blood, that remains to be seen.

And Kurgan, I think you missed the rest of Madposter's statment. Genocide is a poor solution, but hardly an option. I think that is what he was driving at.

Gabrobot
10-12-2001, 02:02 AM
I agree with rapina. Non-violence is the path for those who are truly brave and strong.

Uh, it seems like a lot you are a little misled as to what the US is doing. Ominosensi, the US is killing those women and children you speak of! While the American media lies to you and says that the US is bombing the terrorists and not cities, the US is actually out bombing cities and probably hasn't killed a single terrorist!!

oninosensi
10-12-2001, 05:59 AM
Cites are where most military instalations are located. As for the death of women and children, it happens when you start lobbing bombs. it is unfortunate. Civilain deaths are part of war. Terrorist could care less about it, in fact, they prefer targets that won't fight back.

You do realise, the Taliban wouldn't care anyway? We wil help get the country back on its feet after all this.

Do you people want this to continue? Two choices these days: for or against terrorism. There are no sidelines anymore.

rapina, gabrobot- non violence is just a pipedream for now, considering the situation. So the question is: who's side are you on? Peaceful negotiation is not an option at this time. Both the Taliban and Bin Laden have made that crystal clear.

[ October 12, 2001: Message edited by: oninosensi ]

Gabrobot
10-12-2001, 10:17 PM
Hmmmmm, interesting. Reading the end of Kylilins post I see this: "Terrorism has been and always will be a cowards game."

The "good ol' US of A" has done more terrorist actions then any other terrorist group! Again, you're listning to the American media, which represents what the government wants you you you to hear, meaning they lie to you ALL THE TIME!

Do any of you know that Afghanistan actually WANTS to make a deal with the US and turn Bin Laden over to us? But the US has wanted an excuse to go bomb Afghanistan for some time now, so of course they're going to bomb right now!

I know you aren't to believe me so I'm just going to stop trying, but like I said before, there is NO way around evolution. And evolution doesn't favor the greedy, or those that believe the greedy.

Goodbye and farewell, I hope evolution isn't to hard on you.

oninosensi
10-13-2001, 02:56 AM
Gee, why is it, after talking to my neighbors, they are glad the Taliban is being forcable removed. These people are refuges from Afghanstan, who fled when the Taliban took over. A major factor in their choice to leave was the fact that his wife is a very well educated, very intellegent woman. The fact that she has had an education is all the excuse the Taliban needed to have her exicuted. Do you support this?

Show me proof the US is conducting "terrorist actions". Car bombs, biological warfare, and suicide attacks in commercial airlines? The US is doing this? The US has in the past, and will continue to do, covert operations. Is this the "terrorist actions" you speak of?

Do I blindy believe evertything the media tells me? Anyone who does is a fool. Anything reported on TV and elsewhere is a distilled version of what is going on at best. You have to research and deceide what is the true.

If the Taliban wanted to hand over Bin Laden, they would have trussed him up and hauled his butt out to where we could apperhend him. I havn't seen that happen yet.

I still fail to see what evolution has to do with it. Greed is part of why the Taliban is in power.

Gabrobot, both you and rapina's replies have become more and more disjointed, and have started to make less and less sense. This is a horrible situation, and some form of response is nesesary, or these people will continue to do what they have done.

So my question is, where do you truly stand? Mexico could very well be a target just because of the treaties and common border that is shared. Any and all countries that has ties with the US could be a target. If you think otherwise, go back and study your history, specificly the reasons behind how there have been two World Wars.

You both sound incredibly naive in your statments.

Nobody is arguing your messages of peace. Most here would rather not be involved in this. But what's done, is done.

So my question still stands. Do you support the Anti-terrorist coalition, or do you support those who would rule through fear and death, such as the Taliban and Bin Laden?

Kylilin
10-13-2001, 04:45 AM
I would make my own remarks, but oninosensi pretty much summed up everything I have to say...but I'll just say it anyway

You know what, I wish that the world was at peace, I really do, war is a terrible thing, but sometimes you have to do what you have to do...it IS a part of human culture, not to acknowledge that fact is both naive and foolish...

Give me 1 example of terrorist actions by the United States government...gee, when was the last time we got some Navy SEALS to hijack a plane and crash it into a building? or when was the last time the Marine Corps poisoned a resevoir? when was the last time the Army Rangers bombed an embassy? let me see...umm...NEVER!

and evolution does favor the greedy, its called Survival of the Fittest, you know, that guy named Darwin...

and the "good ol' US of A" has provided more aid in the form of medicine, medical services and food to countries that need them than any other country in the world, and this is the thanks we get...

How can you not support your country in this time of need? 7,000 people die and you don't think we should do anything about it? I hope you don't know anyone who was killed in these attacks, because if it was me I'd be screaming bloody murder. I hope one day the billions of humans on this planet can come together in peace, but right now is not the time for that.

Peace in the world cannot be acheived when there are governments who bury women alive, where you can be arrested for not growing your beard long enough, where a peaceful religion can be used as a front and excuse for killing innocent people, such are the actions of the Taliban. Until actions of that nature cease to happen, this world will not know peace.

Gabrobot
10-13-2001, 05:32 PM
I told you that you wouldn't believe me.

However there are a few I HAVE to reply to.
First, I DON'T support the Taliban or anything! However I also don't support the US killing innocent people, how is killing those women you were talking about, going to help them?!

The US DOES experiment with biological weapons! It is suspected that AIDS was a result of the US experiments in fact!

Also I DO live in the US (unfortunatly).

Let's look at a simple question. Why would anyone hate the US enough to do something as horrible as what happened?

If you want peace you must seek peace not war. You can say you want peace, but that means nothing if you don't support it!

Evolution favors the ones that are the most flexible, the US by restricting what people can do, is becoming even less flexible then it was. War is going to be the extiction of humans, the terrorists are going strike us even harder next time, because of all the bombing that is going on. The US in turn will show that they can do even more terrible things then before and kill more people. It's a never ending cycle, and if people LIKE YOU who say they want peace, BUT NEVER ACTUALLY TRY TO MAKE THIS A PEACEFUL WORLD, then humans will go extinct.

[ October 13, 2001: Message edited by: Gabrobot ]

Kylilin
10-13-2001, 06:11 PM
If you think that the fact that you are a United States citizen is unfortunate, maybe you should leave, for you are undeserving of the right to call yourself a citizen of this country...I know this country has its faults, but what country doesn't?

And I never suggested that this country didn't perform biological warfare experiments, of course we have, but we never unleashed and chemical weapon on people in a time of war.

I am also smart enough to realize that the United States is NOT an innocent country, but if another country/organization wanted to attack us, why not attack our military targets? If they felt that they HAD to attack the United States, why did they feel that they had to take the lives of the innocent? This is why I am so outraged, they could have declared official war on us, or at least bomb a military target, a ship, shoot down a fighter jet, but no, they had to kill people who have nothing to do with anything.

I'm actually rather disgusted, it is people like you that ruin this country and give it no sense of itself. Maybe you should move to Afghanistan and see how much you like it there, since you obviously are unhappy with living in the United States, see how much you like it in a country where fear reigns, not law. A country where you are not innocent until proven guilty, but you are guilty buntil proven guilty.

Would you rather our country do nothing in response to these attacks? We didn't do anything after two embassies were bombed, we didn't do anything after the World Trade Center was bombed, and we didn't do anything after the U.S.S. Cole was bombed, now, I beleive, is the time to react, they have gone too far this time, it is unforgiveable.

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Kylilin ]

oninosensi
10-14-2001, 02:32 AM
Gadrobot, why don't you offer a solution, instead of this increasingly incoherant babbling?

Nobody is arguing the subject of peace, but your just repeating the same thing over and over again. Try making a point sometime.

And another note, your free to leave the contry if you don't like it. Nobody is keeping you here. Considering that more attacks are more than like;y, your welcome to go hide where ever you want.

Yes, the US builds chemical and biological weapons. Stupid, but that is not going to change. Same for nuclear weapons.

Any civilian deaths at this point are not intentional. Yes, non military deaths are going to happen, just like it does in any war. Show me one war where they where zero civilian deaths.

Kylilin is right about evolution, only the strong survive. Greed may, or may not, be a factor. Try studing a little more before making broad generalizations you can't support.

And you still fail to releize that there is no middle ground. Either you support the US and it's allies, or you support terrorism. Just being an american makes you a target. Are you foolish enough to think this will never touch you? I have family in New York City (thankfully safe), and friends in the military (who love this country enough to die for it, if need be). I could lose them in an instant. Or could be killed myself. Or you might be killed in a terrorist assult. And it might not be from the middle east. Do the names David Koresh or Timothy McVeigh ring a bell? If not, then you need to look them up.

And, Gadrobot, if I don't believe the media, why would I believe you? Offer me proof, not conspericy theories. (Next thing you know someone will be claining Elvis shot JFK because the aliens told him to!)

It is a war. And it is us or them, they have rejected any other option. They only want to kill us, not talk to us. So what would you have us do?

So, I ask again, who do you support. If not the US, it must be the terrorists.

Gabrobot
10-14-2001, 04:35 PM
One thing I want very clear: I SUPPORT PEACE NOT WAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Now, I in no way say that I support the terrorists or what they did!!!!! I don't!!!!!!!!!! However, if the US is attacking the wrong people then should I support the US? I don't support the terrorists, and I don't think what the US is doing is right. Sometimes (like right now) I feel like moving to another planet. Naboo under Trade Federation attack would be better then this strange and horrible world, where people crash planes into buildings, and other people drop nukes on other people.

But this is going nowhere, so I'm not posting here any more.

And I can't leave the US for several more years for reasons...

Goodbye! :mad:

[ October 14, 2001: Message edited by: Gabrobot ]

Sub-Zero
10-15-2001, 02:04 AM
If the Taliban wouldv'e handed over bin Laden in the first place, our bombing of Afganistan wouldn't have started. I'm as sick of this as everybody else. But, something has to be done.

Kylilin
10-15-2001, 06:54 PM
Don't let the doorknob hit ya on the way out Gabby... :rolleyes:

oninosensi
10-16-2001, 12:37 AM
The US is attacking those who harbor terrorists. Why is that wrong? I don't understand your reasons.

As for peace, what would you do in a situation where one side refuses to talk or listen to reason? Or for that matter, when one side has murdered five thousand people? What would you do, Gadrobot? let them walk away?

Gabrobot
10-16-2001, 01:47 AM
I have to respond.

The US has, in case you don't know, killed 400+ innocent civillian's, who had nothing to do with the terrorists attack on the US, and you ask me what's wrong with it. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Also, if the US is going to bomb the people who harbored the terrorists, why aren't they bombing Florida or Canada? They horbored the terrorists, and Bush said he wouldn't make any distinction between the terrorists and those who harbored them. ;)

And as for what I would do in that situation, I would first make sure that I had all the facts right. Currently, the US doesn't really have any proof that Bin Laden did the terrorist attack, and murdered 5,000 people. And I can't see anyone refusing to give up someone who has done something like that, when they know what would happen if they didn't. I just thought of something, maybe they CAN'T give him up because he isn't there. If he just murdered thousands of people, I would think he'd try to hide in a place where the US couldn't easily find him. And like I said before the US already wanted to bomb Afghanistan.

Well anyway guess I'll make my exit now... :rolleyes: ;)

[ October 16, 2001: Message edited by: Gabrobot ]

oninosensi
10-16-2001, 10:17 PM
I would like to see the proof you have that the US goverment has no proof of Bin Ladens involvment. You keep claiming this, but offer nothing to support it. You starting to sound like a conspiracy theorist.(Maybe JFK was shot by Elvis at the request of alien invaders)

Civilian deaths happen in war. Have you missed that fact? I never said it was right, but it does happen. I suggest you read my post a little more carefully.

And the Taliban claims they do have Bin Laden, but refuse to give him up. That, and their treatment of the people of Afghanistan. Would you rather this group of murders stay in power?

rapina
10-17-2001, 09:14 PM
"no one said that non-violence is like communism", no, I AM saying so...
becuase thats how it looks like nowadays.

" what does puppet governments have to do with ANYTHING that is going on right now in Afghanistan?"
all. poeple doesnt like it, and get pissed. and if they are as MAD as Bin laden, this happen.

"You know, I bet if you were American, you'd be singing a much different tune." exactly, im not brainwashed by CNN NBC CBS etc.
"Afghanistan needs IS a puppet government so their people aren't starving anymore. " o my god.... thats scary u know?

"And, by the way, the #1 provider of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan is who? thats right boys and girls, the good ol' US of A."
o sure, ... yeah thats good sense of humor, let me remind u a few things about "humanitarian" help...
--------------

"Do you support the Anti-terrorist coalition, or do you support those who would rule through fear and death, such as the Taliban and Bin Laden?"
lets talk about the ONES that "rule through fear and death"

OK, lets get some FACTS straight first (in no particular order):
1.- yes, my statements are more and more disjointed for you since I have a different view of the history of the last 40 years.
2.- The Taliban gov. isn't THAT different than Saudi Arabia or Iran or Iraq, (name any other Arab country), in those places, if you commit a crime, they can either, cut your head, a hand, or throw stones till die, mean while in almost any western country you can spend from 1 day to 50 years in prison, unless u have OJ Simpson lawyers.
3.- The Arabs countries have a different point of view of how LAW and justice should be archived, example: there is no such thing as "suspects"...
4.- the US gov. is the best in the world, but only for people that lives INSIDE its borders (read below).
5.- even tho Mexican news shows are rebroadcasting CNN news, talks shows are a different story, they have had special guest of the Mexican Muslim community and other political Annalist and as today, there is a general consensus about what is going on with this so called "war" and it EXTEMELY different than US TV idea of what's going on... that terrible misleading and brainwashing has become US TV, now that the gov. needs full support of the people, no matter the cost, thanks god, you guys have INTERNET, so we can help a little with some simple FACTS.

I have give you the URL of Gandhi Web site, take a hard look at it, violence isn't just killing people, but also "exploitation", to impose US mentality to contries either don't want it OR don't care at all. to invent countries where they wasn't since 1800 years ago *cough*Israel*cough*.
thats what I'm taking about, if you say that Vietnam WAR is not a terrorist attack from the US just because it wasn't done thru car bombs or highjack planes, then I can't argue about that, OH! no wait, Vietnam war was an "error", and dead civilians aren't that, there was just a lot of "collateral damage".
Terrorism as any other form of violence MUST be fought thru justice, making a theater to make a vulgar display of power is a waste of time, money and life, that's only means that US wants to make a bad Emulation of the ROMAN Empire in the first place, BUT until the US people start to recognize the crimes its government has done and/or KEEP doing around the world, and I'm talking of at least from 30 to 40 years ago to date. we are not going NO WHERE.
In fact, there is a movie with Jack Lemmon about Chilean "missing" students during Pinochet ruling, go rent it if you find it, later come and tell me that US gov. isn't involved in killing innocent young people (just pay attention of what the Ambassador of the US in Chile tells to Jack).
and for the record, in the late 70's Chile elected one charismatic president, his name was Salvador Allende (I'm not sure about his first name), the whole deal was that he wanted to do the SAME thing that Mexican president Lazaro Cardenas did with Mexican oil years before, trouble is, that President Cardenas did it in the 30's and we discovered 40 decades later that we have HUGE amounts of oil (offshore), and Allende wanted to do it in the late 70's when it was clear that they have the biggest mines of coper on Earth, meanwhile Cardenas took over the US and British oil companies ripping off Mexican oil, to create what now is called PEMEX, Allende wanted to do the same with the coper mines of Chile, just days after taking the charge of President, and after a complete failure of trying to manipulate the election, Pinochet blew his head off, with full support of Henry Kissinger.... now, you may wonder "why Mexico could make it and Chile don't" simple, US and the British were more worried about the Nazi's in the 30's than anything else plus the fact that Mexican oil wasn't a big deal(in those days). and in late 70's they were trying to rip off anyone on sight, WE HAD A LOT OF LUCK!.

Thats just ONE single example. one that not every one know, one that even holywood has a movie about it. well, that's the type of things that generates hate, and if you just refuse to accept the huge responsability that your GOV. have, (and NO, those aren't "ERRORS", those are criminal acts) then good luck, and thats what the Gandhi site is all about. and once more, violence isn't just killing people... but ripping off others.
don't wait 2 centuries to say "sorry" like US did to the "native Americans" , were the big majority are extinguish in the first place.

If YOU, guys from the US, can't understand this either because of my bad grammar or because you DON'T WANT to accept this simple FACT THEN:


WE ARE ALL ****ED UP. plain and simple.

PS
I strongly disagree with the support that my president is giving to that mass murder in Afghanistan. and FYI: is because It's against the Mexican Constitution.
I will not support criminals either called Taliban, Al Qeada or Coalition of whatever.

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: rapina ]

Sub-Zero
10-17-2001, 11:59 PM
Although I am sick of this, I'm still mad because of what happened, like a lot of people are. I hope this all ends soon.

Gabrobot
10-18-2001, 01:37 AM
Hey oninosensi, would you agree that bombing airports, and worse, bombing a civillian house where a wedding is going on, are acts of terrorism?

If not, you need to see that old World war I movie, All Quiet on the Western Front. War IS a type of terrorism.

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Gabrobot ]

[ October 17, 2001: Message edited by: Gabrobot ]

rapina
10-18-2001, 03:20 AM
well, I have my DATES wrong (it was early 70's) but the rest is right tho...
and quote :

The CIA is largely credited with engineering the coup, with its funds, military support and political influence in the guise of large corporations. The economic policies of Allende were all the proof it needed to justify intervention in Chile.


and just to make this clear... is not fault of the US people , the only trouble they have is that they dont know for what they Taxes are going.
http://www-sul.stanford.edu/depts/hasrg/german/exhibit/GDRposters/allende.html

Kylilin
10-18-2001, 05:04 PM
ok, here we go...


"no one said that non-violence is like communism", no, I AM saying so...
becuase thats how it looks like nowadays:

Stalin killed millions of people, as did the communist cultural revolution in China, so be quiet about tying in Communism and non-violence.

" what does puppet governments have to do with ANYTHING that is going on right now in Afghanistan?"
all. poeple doesnt like it, and get pissed. and if they are as MAD as Bin laden, this happen.:
Afghanistan is not a puppet government of anyone, so once again, be quiet.

"You know, I bet if you were American, you'd be singing a much different tune." exactly, im not brainwashed by CNN NBC CBS etc:
I am not brainwashed, I just find it the right thing to do is to support my country, if a plane crashed into a building in Mexico City killing thousands, all in the name of Islam, wouldn't YOU be pissed.

"Afghanistan needs IS a puppet government so their people aren't starving anymore. " o my god.... thats scary u know?:
I'd rather see a government that was created through the help of the united States than a government like the Taliban, although if it were up to me, I wouldn't get involved with establishing a new government in Afghanistan at all.

"And, by the way, the #1 provider of humanitarian aid to Afghanistan is who? thats right boys and girls, the good ol' US of A."
o sure, ... yeah thats good sense of humor, let me remind u a few things about "humanitarian" help...:
Just remember rapina, just how many jobs U.S. Multi-national Corporations bring their factories into Mexico and provide the people there with jobs, so once again, be quiet

rapina
10-18-2001, 06:04 PM
Communism is not a person or persons... is a broken UTOPIA so don't says misleading crap dude.
neither Mao Tse Tung or Staling were sane people at all. so if Pinochet is all capitalist, then capitalism is a bad thing?
that called rethoric or BS. and it sux


"Afghanistan is not a puppet government of anyone, so once again, be quiet."
then again, u miss the whole point ...

quote:

"Just remember rapina, just how many jobs U.S. Multi-national Corporations bring their factories into Mexico and provide the people there with jobs, so once again, be quiet"

you are no different than pinochet then, he make shut a lot of lifes because they didn't agree with his Tyrant gov.

or, those that mean that you can go and kill people ALL OVER THE planet to have a wealthy country and not been criticsided for that just because your country fed mine?
and if you are speaking about "maquilla" they pay extremely low and exploits the people, let alone the terrible working conditions.
you know? thats doesn't make you any different than a Nazi.

I'm sorry kiliyn but you're sick...

Ikhnaton
10-18-2001, 06:37 PM
rapina... now there's a name i haven't heard in a long time... a long time...

Kylilin
10-18-2001, 08:47 PM
I find it extremely offensive that you called me a Nazi, I haven't called you any names, I'm just trying to have a debate over this issue, no need for it to get out of hand. Like you I am also of Spanish decent, I'm half Cuban, so don't go calling me a Nazi, I am the farthest thing from it.

I would like to know what you would do, if you were an American, even if you knew several people in the World Trade Center who got out alive, thankfully (because I do). Would you still be rattling on about no retaliation? Would you still be sympathising with terrorists, because in effect, that is what you are doing. In shunning the United States, you support the ideals of terrorism and Islamic fanaticism.

The Taliban and the people of the Al-Qaeda organization are a threat to ALL life on the planet, your life, my life, any life that does not agree with them. And you say that the United States is evil? I think there is some American policy that needs to be changed in the Middle East. But what they have done is unexcusable.

rapina
10-18-2001, 09:33 PM
it was a crime what the CIA did to the people of Chile YES OR NO?

rapina
10-18-2001, 09:38 PM
ok... I have somthing that express better what I'm talking about...
-----
It was predictable. For years I?ve been writing that the U.S. Government has been making more enemies than Americans really need, all over the globe, and that one of these days some of them would have a nasty surprise for us.

In fact it nearly happened a few years ago, when Islamic radicals tried to blow up the World Trade Center. But of course they made a botch of it and got caught.

This time, though, someone pulled off what must have been an extremely cunning conspiracy, a criminal feat for the ages. They managed to execute a secret plan calling for four simultaneous hijackings of airplanes. Those who committed these coordinated deeds ? in spite of all security measures ? also had the determination to die in hitting their targets.

This wasn?t ?terrorism.? This was war. It wasn?t a random attempt to scare people with an arbitrary atrocity, like the bombing of a pizza joint; it was a serious attempt to kill as many people and do as much material damage as possible at two strategic targets, the World Trade Center and the Pentagon.

But, as I write, hours after the attacks, we don?t know who is at war with us. We may never know. Who has reason to hate this country? Only a few hundred million people ? Arabs, Muslims, Serbs, and numerous others whose countries have been hit by U.S. bombers.

[[Breaker quote: Why should anyone want to hurt us?]] Imagine hating a country so much that you were willing to cross an ocean and carry out an elaborate revenge against its people, killing yourself in the process. This is something far more than the sort of ideological anti-Americanism that leads student mobs to throw stones at U.S. embassies abroad; that?s kid stuff. This is an obsessive, fanatical, soul-consuming hatred.

Foreigners aren?t quite real to Americans, and most Americans are unaware of how profoundly their government antagonizes much of the human race. We are easy-going people who generally have no idea how bullying we seem to foreigners. Until now, we have had no experience of what the U.S. Government has so often inflicted on others. Now, at least, we have an inkling of what it feels like.

Government spokesmen have responded with their usual cant of ?cowardly attacks? by ?terrorists? who ?hate democracy and freedom.? Rubbish. A fanatic who is ready to die is the opposite of a coward, and nobody can ?hate? such abstractions as ?democracy and freedom? with that kind of intensity.

It?s dangerous to belittle your enemy, especially when his courage and cunning have already proved as formidable as his hatred and cruelty. The first question you should ask about your enemy is why he is your enemy in the first place.

You may be deluding and flattering yourself if you assume he hates you for your virtues. But our ?leaders? assure us that our enemies are unnaturally evil people who hate us only because we are so wonderful. And they manage to utter this nonsense with an air of tough-minded realism.

True realism, on the other hand, doesn?t mean blaming Americans for bringing these horrifying and truly evil acts on themselves. It does mean trying to imagine alien perspectives from which our government?s conduct might appear so intolerable that some people might be driven to take atrocious revenge.

?To understand all is to forgive all,? says the French aphorism. Not true. But understanding all can at least teach you how to avoid making enemies, and avoiding making enemies is the best defense ? better than a $300 billion ?defense? budget that didn?t defend the World Trade Center.

The great director Jean Renoir was once asked why there were no villains in his films. He answered simply: ?Everyone has his reasons.? Your bitterest enemy may have his reasons for hating your guts. You may not think they are good or sufficient reasons, but you?d better take them into account. If he has any brains, he may find a way to hurt you.

The United States is now a global empire that wants to think of itself as a universal benefactor, and is nonplussed when foreigners don?t see it that way. None of the earlier empires of this world, as far as I know, shared this delusion; the Romans, the Mongols, the British, the Russians and Soviets didn?t expect to rule and to be loved at the same time. Why do we?


Too Late?
October 9, 2001

by Joe Sobran

My, my. Tempers after the 9/11 attack are
high, and I'm getting a lot of angry mail and
e-mail complaining about my negative and
unpatriotic attitude. Some of the more temperate
messages say that while my analysis may be correct,
as far as it goes, I don't offer useful "solutions"
for our present difficulty.

My analysis is the same one I've offered for
years, except that it may be too late to take my
advice. I've said our government's foreign policy,
especially in the Middle East, was asking for
trouble. Until a month ago, this was ignored. Now
that I turn out to have been quite right, some
people want me to explain how to get ourselves out
of trouble.

I really wish I knew. My point was that it's a
lot easier to avoid stepping into an abyss than to
climb out of it. It's a lot easier to avoid making
enemies than to defend yourself when they want to
kill you.

Let me put it another way. Suppose I warn you
that if you smoke, you may get cancer. You go ahead
and smoke; and sure enough, you get cancer. Then
you come to me and say, "Okay, you're so smart --
what's the cure for cancer?" I can only answer: "I
have no idea. If I knew of a cure, I wouldn't have
had to warn you, would I? I'd have told you to go
ahead and smoke, since if you got cancer I could
cure you."

The real irony of the situation is that Osama
bin Laden is essentially demanding that we live by
our own original principles. Not that he knows or
cares a whit for constitutional government, the
counsel of the Founding Fathers, and suchlike
infidel malarkey; but his demand for American
withdrawal from the Middle East would never have
been necessary if we had retained the modest
"republican form of government" that was bequeathed
to us. Instead the United States has become a
global empire.

And of course people like me are "anti-
American" for preferring the old constitutional
republic we've abandoned. And now, in order to
defeat bin Laden, we are moving, and moving
rapidly, even further away from a limited,
decentralized, constitutional system. By executive
order, President Bush has created a second
Department of Defense -- called the Office of
Homeland Security -- to do what the first
Department of Defense was supposed to do, but has
failed to do. And in today's parlance, a "patriot"
is an American who favors this unconstitutional
expansion of government power.

We are told that bin Laden hates freedom and
democracy. But he didn't ask us to ignore the Bill
of Rights, and specifically the Ninth and Tenth
Amendments; our own government, with popular
support, has been doing that on its own initiative.
It's been doing it for a long time, but in wartime
the process accelerates.

So no, I don't have a solution. I knew how to
prevent an incurable disease; but, as I say, it may
be too late for that. The last thing most Americans
want to do now is to restore the original
constitutional republic, with severely limited
powers, and with neither a huge welfare state at
home nor a military colossus abroad.

Does this mean "blaming America first"? I
don't blame the U.S. Constitution, which, if
adhered to, would have kept us out of the Middle
East cauldron that has now scalded us. I don't
blame ordinary Americans, who hardly know what
their government is and does. I don't even blame
our present government for the crimes of bin Laden
and his allies; the blood of thousands is on their
heads.

But I certainly do blame our arrogant, short-
sighted elites for putting this country on a
collision course with simple-minded fanatics who
don't distinguish between the innocent and the
guilty. It was foreseeable and avoidable, on our
own founding principles -- principles to which our
elites have no more attachment than bin Laden does.

The question now is whether the war on
Afghanistan will solve the problem or make it even
worse. It may destroy bin Laden and weaken his
network, without (if we're lucky) creating a wider
war and making us more enemies in the future; but
even if it succeeds in its immediate aims, it
certainly won't take this country back toward
constitutional government. It's already doing just
the opposite.



this are the editorials of a gringo...
not mine.

(heheh, like if someone doubt it)

[ October 18, 2001: Message edited by: rapina ]

oninosensi
10-18-2001, 11:20 PM
rapina- first off, name calling just undermines your entire stance. Yes, the US has enemies, who are now going to feel the wrath of our anger, and be shown what it is truly like to be our enemy. Isn't it amazing how many countries are coming to support the US in it's effort to stop hese murders?

True, most americans could use ALOT more education on just how the world's opinion about the US. I won't argue that point. It doesn't excuse what happened. Nothing does. The time for peace is past. The time for justice is now. Your position in all this appears to be strongly Pro-terrorism.

And before you continue to blast the US, maybe you should try to help things in Mexico. How many mexican citizens try to enter the US every day? Why is it that the cities in the other side of the border from Texas are hellholes that make the worst parts of LA or NY look like heaven? If the border with Mexico was sealed, what would happen to your nice cozy soapbox your preaching from?

Posted by Gadrobot:
Hey oninosensi, would you agree that bombing airports, and worse, bombing a civillian house where a wedding is going on, are acts of terrorism?

Are you incredibly naive? Or just uneducated?
The attacks by the US are military strikes. While the airports are being bombed deliberatly, they are not being carpet bombed. it is stratigic hits designed to cripple the airport with out destroying it. As for anything else hit, it happens in war.

Instead of watching movies, why don't you read something and learn. And I read the book. The movie pales by comparison.

Reply again when you can make an intellegent, credible argument. By your last statment, it is ovious you haven't truly read any of my posts. Why don't you start there and try to understand the situation before making these comments.

rapina
10-19-2001, 11:12 PM
I'm not "blasting" the US. only its evil gov.
so don't say things that I didn't say.
is lame.

Despite the best efforts of government, sometimes
bits of the truth leak out.

Former Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu
made one of the frankest statements yet about the 9/11
attack: he said it was "good for Israel." He quickly
added an expression of sympathy for Americans, lest he
seem to be welcoming the horror we had suffered; but his
first reaction was right.

Objectively, the attack, though bad for the United
States, was good for Israel, just as Pearl Harbor, though
bad for the United States, was good for Britain -- as
Winston Churchill was the first to realize. Once Japan
hit Pearl Harbor, the United States was bound to enter
World War II on the British side. Small countries always
welcome the military assistance of big countries. It's
only natural.

Privately, Churchill spoke of "the British Empire."
But because Americans frowned on empires, he spoke
publicly of Britain and America as "the great
democracies" and "the English-speaking peoples." Today
the Israelis speak among themselves of "the Jewish
state," but when they address Americans, most of whom are
gentiles, they speak of "democracies."

The interests of nations (or nation-states) differ.
Even allies rarely have identical interests. What's bad
for one may be profitable for the other, though it is
usually unseemly to say so. The necessities of propaganda
force them to present a united front, to insist that they
stand for the same ideals, and to profess to feel each
other's pain, as if they were Siamese twins.

Now the United States is welded to Israel as never
before. The alliance went from costly to catastrophic in
a flash. It undoubtedly helped motivate the attack. If
the United States had withdrawn from the Middle East on
its own initiative, Arab and Muslim hatred of this
country would have abated and the attack might never have
occurred. But a U.S. withdrawal now would look like the
retreat of a defeated empire -- like the British
withdrawal from Palestine in reaction to Zionist
terrorism. And no American president can afford to look
weak.

In response to the attack, the Bush administration
has created an Office of Homeland Security. Excuse me,
but, like, isn't homeland security the whole purpose of
the Department of Defense?

Apparently not. Apparently the Federal Government
spends $300 billion every year for something that is not,
strictly speaking, "defense" -- as in "the common defense
of the United States." So when it actually finds it
necessary to defend this country, it has to create a
whole new agency!

The Department of Defense is, properly speaking, a
Department of Offense -- an offensive force spread all
over the globe, provoking enmities against which it
can't defend us. It does precisely the opposite of what
it's supposed to be doing. It makes us insecure. Hence
the need for a separate agency to produce "security."

Once upon a time, before double-talk became the
American Way, the Department of Defense was frankly
called the Department of War. Maybe it's time to resume
the old name, in the interest of candor and clarity. But
whatever we call it, it's obsolete. Like all state
entities, it has been outwitted by resourceful private
persons -- and in this case, singularly unpleasant ones.

Heartening as it is to see every American waving a
flag in each hand, you have to wonder where all these
patriots were while their Constitution was being wadded
up, while their Republic was becoming an empire, and
while their politicians were pandering to the pro-Israel
lobby. It took a horrible physical assault on this
country to wake them up, but they still don't seem
curious about how this situation came to pass while they
slept.

We are told that our freedom is under attack. And it
is. But Osama bin Laden can't abridge our freedoms; only
our own government can do that -- by giving the FBI and
CIA new powers, for example, and by imposing new
restrictions on airlines and travelers, banks and
financial institutions, and on private communications. It
may yet force us all to carry identity cards.

The prospect of a government that treats all its
citizens as criminal suspects is more terrifying than any
terrorist. And even more frightening is a citizenry that
can accept the surrender of its freedoms as the price of
"freedom."


well, for me, someone that has his brain "washed" is no different than a nazi.
thats why they did what they did.
thats why US gov. is doning what is doing...


oninosensi,
just answer me this:
what the CIA did to Chile was a crime?

a YES or NO will do.


now, I can tell you about more history of the past 40 years, but why bother? you just don't want to accept it.
good luck, you gonna need it.

[ October 19, 2001: Message edited by: rapina ]

rapina
10-19-2001, 11:16 PM
by Joe Sobran

My father nearly lost his life fighting for Stalin.
During World War II Commander Michael Sobran served on a
battleship that was hit by a kamikaze. He watched as
pieces of his men were fished out of the ocean.

To be fair, he didn't know he was fighting to help
Franklin Roosevelt hand ten Christian countries to the
Soviet Union; that obviously wasn't the stated war aim of
the U.S. Government, merely the practical result of
Roosevelt's eagerness to help his buddy "Uncle Joe."

No, my father and other young men of his generation
were told they were fighting for democracy and freedom;
Roosevelt said they were fighting for the Four Freedoms,
including Freedom from Want and Freedom from Fear. Who
would actually get the spoils of victory was never
specified, but the people who wound up under Soviet
control never saw any of the Four Freedoms.

During wartime, rulers -- or "leaders" -- usually
talk in abstractions, which the fighting men pretty much
ignore. People feel they can't afford to be skeptical of
the government while the war rages; skepticism is
regarded as treason. The government becomes "us," our
tribe, our only security.

The hell of it is that skepticism of government is
seldom more warranted than during war. That's when
government is most likely to seize the opportunity to
expand its powers and crack down on individual liberty,
generally with the support of the majority. If the
government bombs cities abroad while lying to its own
people at home, well, these things are often necessary in
wartime, aren't they?

We are already seeing this mentality emerge in the
current "war on terrorism." Skeptics are now accused of
being "anti-American" or tarred as "the hate-America
crowd." Some of my own readers tell me I'm a traitor for
saying that our own government got us into this mess;
they invite me to find another country to live in,
preferably an Arab one. We're already at, or approaching,
the Government-Is-Us stage.

Now is the time to exercise freedom of speech --
while we still have it. I've said all along that our
government was making enemies, many of whom would be
civilized people with just grievances, while others would
be ruthless, clever, and vengeful fanatics. And now that
the latter have been heard from, and our rulers are
overreacting the way rulers generally do, we're supposed
to clam up?

No thanks. I don't want my sons to go through what
their grandfather went through. I don't want another
generation of American boys to be sacrificed on the altar
of government, alias "freedom" and "democracy."

It isn't "anti-Americanism" to warn your country
against repeating the tragic errors of the past. It's
patriotism. And real patriotism means facing your own
potentially fatal weaknesses.

"The idea that history is tragedy is not to the
American taste," William Pfaff wrote recently. He is not
the first to make this observation. Time and again we
have plunged into wars with reckless optimism, failing to
ask ourselves the simple question: What could go wrong?

"That men set off a course of events they can
neither calculate nor control," wrote the Shakespeare
critic A.C. Bradley a century ago, "is a *tragic* fact."
And it's a fact Americans are strangely slow to
recognize. We expect success, results, victory. We seldom
anticipate failure, frustration, defeat -- let alone the
chaos that may ensue if our government increases the
present rage and ferment of the Muslim world by attacking
a Muslim country.

It won't do to try to assure Muslims that we don't
consider all of them our enemies. Few of them are
listening. The same simple-minded passions that are
showing up among Americans are even more intense in the
Muslim world. The Arabs, and the Israelis too, make their
own tragic mistakes. Most human beings do.

*What could go wrong?* Are we going to insist on
finding out? Few wars ever go as planned. Even America's
most successful war -- the Mexican War, with its lopsided
victory and tremendous conquests -- is still bearing
negative consequences for us.

Sub-Zero
10-20-2001, 12:36 AM
I saw on the news the other night that 82% of Pakistans population says that bin Laden is a Holy Warrior, not a terrorist. Ok, for one thing, a holy warrior doesn't take innocent lives. And Rapina, where in the world do you get off saying that the U.S. government is evil? Would you prefer living under Nazis?

oninosensi
10-20-2001, 01:47 AM
now, I can tell you about more history of the past 40 years, but why bother? you just don't want to accept it.


I am aware of this nations history for the past 60 years. Shall we talk about your nation a bit? How Mexico's very survival is linked to the USA's well being? Shall we discuss NAFTA and what it truly means? Maybe the american tourist population that supports a huge chunk of your economy? Or maybe even the policies your own goverment has come up with. We can start with the prisons, and the justice system. I am sure I can find more than a few questionable situations in the past for you as well. How about the drug problems the US has that originate in Mexico?

Before you attack our country, maybe you should do something about yours. At least I can walk down the street and no have to worry about getting attacked.

The US may not be utopia, but it is a damn sight better than any part of Mexico. Your starting to remind me of the very reasons I am never returning.

Go ahead, tell me about the history of the US. And then tell me WHY those policies are in place. You seem to have no idea of why yhe situation is, and are offering nothing but the rantings of one person, and nothing else to backup your position.

And explain to me, since your counrty does no harm, how a good friend of mine got arrested and thrown in jail because he happened to be on the same block when drug arests where made, and convicted, then sentenced to 20 years in a hellhole.

Let's discuss Mexico for a while, shall we?

Gabrobot
10-20-2001, 05:02 PM
I see at least 3 brainwashed US citizen's who are anti-peace and pro-terrorism. Guess who?

Sub-Zero, you are a good example of a brainwashed US citizen. You're beleiving the **** that the US media is telling you!

I'm not even going to try to respond to what you've said. I've already found out that it does no good.
Besides, you usually respond with a bunch of f****** **** that leads me to belaive that you are either really brainwashed, or really stupid. Or maybe both.

I wish those trillions of years till the sun swollows the earth, would hurry up.

GOODBYE!!!!!!!!!! :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:

Sub-Zero
10-21-2001, 01:46 AM
Gabrobot, if you had half a brain, you'd have the I.Q of a piece of furniture. Me brainwashed and/or stupid? What do you think I am? a member of the Taliban? pleeeeeeaaaassse, this one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Me, brainwashed, what a crock. Ya know, a few months ago, I would've been banned from this board, but I've done something you haven't done yet. It's called maturing...I'm suprised you knew that.

oninosensi
10-21-2001, 04:19 PM
Ah, Gabrobot, showing more of why the US eduation system needs to be vastly improved.

I am pro-peace, I prefer it actually. But consider the situation. Why would you, Gadrobot, allow a murder to go free? That is what I don't understand.

Try answering the question in an intellegent manner this time. I realise it might be a strain, considering you posts on this subjuect to date.

Argath
10-21-2001, 06:46 PM
While the American media lies to you and says that the US is bombing the terrorists and not cities, the US is actually out bombing cities and probably hasn't killed a single terrorist!!

You have some odd misconceptions about what the media is broadcasting. The first day of the attacks, most news networks showed nightvision footage of explosions with the huge caption, "KABUL, AFGHANISTAN," at the bottom of the screen. The last time I checked, Kabul was a city. Neither the US government nor the media has ever denied the fact that cities were being bombed.

Similarly, you seem largely ignorant about the actual situation in Afghanistan right now. For instance:

Do any of you know that Afghanistan actually WANTS to make a deal with the US and turn Bin Laden over to us?

No. The Taliban have been claiming they'll hand over bin Laden if 'substantial evidence' is presented since the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania. They've refused to extradite him for years now under the pretense of a lack of evidence, regardless of what connections to bin Laden may actually exist.

Regardless, unless you are personal buddies with Mullah Mohammed Omar or his Taliban friends, I don't see how you can claim the Taliban want to give bin Laden up. They're acting no differently now than they have in the past, and they've made it abundantly obvious through their past actions that they don't want to hand bin Laden over. Only once did they agree to try bin Laden, and they insisted that the trial be under Islamic law as interpreted by the Taliban. The Taliban will not willingly give up bin Laden unless it comes to the point where they have to to save their own asses; to believe otherwise suggests that the Taliban have been successful in their own attempts at misleading and brainwashing the ignorant.

But the US has wanted an excuse to go bomb Afghanistan for some time now, so of course they're going to bomb right now!

What are you talking about? The United States is the largest contributor of foreign aid to Afghanistan. Furthermore, Afghanistan is largely undeveloped and has few resources except opium, and I doubt the United States would be willing to go to war simply for the sake of heroin. Besides, opium exports decreased 90% since July 2000 when the Taliban threatened drug farmers with execution. Unfortunately, it now appears that they've simply kept a stockpile, as the European heroin market has been flooded with opium as Afghans try to liquidate their stockpiles before US bombers destroy them.

Perhaps the US is bombing simply because it's a standard military procedure commonly used to destroy enemy assets without placing friendly troops in danger. If the US was really so eager to bomb Afghanistan, it would have done so immediately after the World Trade Center attacks, not after a month of investigating and waiting for the Taliban to extradite bin Laden.

As for your claims of the United States having no proof of bin Laden's involvment, I suggest you read up a bit before making any further statements. Several of the hijackers were known bin Laden affiliates, and on top of that, conversations between Al Qaeda members regarding the success of the bombings have been intercepted, just to mention some of the evidence the United States has found and released to the public. Of course, if you're getting your news from sources that insist the US is bombing terrorists instead of cities, I can understand your ignorance.

It's a never ending cycle, and if people LIKE YOU who say they want peace, BUT NEVER ACTUALLY TRY TO MAKE THIS A PEACEFUL WORLD, then humans will go extinct.

Is endlessly repeating, "I HATE WAR!!!!!! I LOVE PEACE!!!!! PEAAAAACEEEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!!!!" really much of a positive contribution? A better way to help create a peaceful world would be to actually offer realistic solutions to all the worldwide problems rather than just ***** and moan about how horrible war is and how everyone needs to hold hands and sing happy songs. Of course, realistic solutions to current problems often involve measures that piss other people off, which sort of makes it hard to create global peace, so I can understand why you've been so silent about offering anything more substantial than, "I HATE WAR!!!! YOU GUYS ARE BRAINWASHED!!!!!!!!!". Global peace is, and probably always will be, little more than a farfetched dream.

I don't necessarily agree with the actions the US is currently taking. Notice I say 'necessarily'; nobody but the government has all the information regarding the current situation, and frankly, I think it's ridiculous to blindly condemn or support government actions based on incomplete information. Perhaps the current bombing is warranted based on the situation in Afghanistan, perhaps not. However, it's incredibly naive to think that any completely peaceful measures could be taken to resolve this conflict; the Taliban are not willing to extradite bin Laden, and capturing only him would do little to stop Al Qaeda, anyway. If the United States wants to prosecute or kill everyone involved in the attacks on September 11, the only way to do so is through military force. The only other option is to just let them go unpunished. Which do you prefer?

Granted, the US's sucky foreign policy and overbearing and hypocritical nature are partially at fault for creating Al Qaeda. More tactful past actions possibly could have stopped the problem before it started, although no one can really say for sure whether bin Laden would still insist on attacking the US if it wasn't as involved in the Middle East and as hypocritical when it comes to foreign relations (for instance, the US bullied many other countries into signing an extradition treaty, but then refused to sign because a clause to exclude the US from the terms wasn't included). However, the causes for bin Laden's attack are largely irrelevent; the fact is, his group murdered 5000 people and warns that the attacks are not over. Meeting all of bin Laden's demands is not a currently feasible solution, so appeasing him is not possible, leaving only two realistic choices: 1) capture or kill bin Laden and destroy Al Qaeda's ability to launch more attacks, but in the process possibly piss off more people and create more potential terrorists; or 2) do nothing and watch as more people die in future Al Qaeda attacks. Either way, the US is probably going to get ****ed at some point in the future; which 'solution' do you choose?

Don't try to lecture me about past US atrocities, either. I'm aware of what the US has done in the past, and frankly, if your best example of the US being 'evil' is the bombing of Hiroshima, I have a feeling that I know a hell of a lot more about US history than you do. The United States had been bombing cities for months before Hiroshima and Nagasaki, anyway; in fact, more lives were lost on May 10, 1945 in Tokyo than in either of the atomic bombings. Overall, incendiary weapons killed more people and caused much more damage than both nuclear attacks.

Of course, the US didn't just decide to firebomb Japanese cities for the hell of it. Japanese industrial centers were closely integrated with residential and commercial sections, making factory bombing a la the European theater nearly impossible with regular explosives. European factories were usually on the outskirts or completely separated from cities, which allowed US and British bombers to destroy them without damaging the rest of the city (although cities themselves were eventually attacked, mostly in retaliation for Germany's bombardment of Britain).

Similarly, the US didn't decide to simply bomb Hiroshima and Nagasaki for the fun of it. While of minimal military importance, they were two of only five (only four targets, actually; Kyoto was ruled out) Japanese cities left untouched, and the United States wanted to basically send the message that it had the power to destroy cities in the blink of an eye. Truman's goal was to appease the American public by ending the war as quickly as possible (and to also send a message to the Soviet Union), and destroying Hiroshima and Nagasaki did just that. In hindsight, it's easy to claim Truman was wrong or evil for doing such a thing, but today's world is a lot different from war-torn 1945. Killing civilians wasn't exactly a new idea (civilians have been killed in wars for millenia), and the bombings did serve to fulfill the US's goal of ending the war as quickly as possible. If anything, the destruction of the cities showed the world the power of nuclear weapons and quite possibly averted a future nuclear war between the United States and the Soviet Union.

Basically, there are much better examples of atrocities than the bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. If you base the severity of an atrocity on how many people died, the atomic bombings aren't nearly the worst of World War II; similarly, if an atrocity is rated by the reasoning behind it, Hiroshima and Nagasaki again are not the worst. The atomic bombings were horrible and the US government could have tried to end the war in a different way (by allowing Japan a conditional rather than unconditional surrender, for instance, which is what they really got when the peace treaty was signed, anyway), but I see little reason to condemn Truman and the US as evil for trying to quickly end the war. Dresden would be a better example of unwarranted civilian killing.

Not that I really expect you know much about US or world history, anyway. Hippies like yourself just hear the words "civilians" and "died" and automatically go into ***** -mode about how evil it is to kill innocent people, ignoring the fact that sometimes it's a necessary evil of war. The only way to avoid killing Japanese civilians in WWII would have been to withdraw from the Pacific theater, which in turn would have allowed the Japanese to continue their genocidal campaign in China. Which seems like a bigger atrocity to you; the violent rape and death of millions of Chinese civilians by the IJA or the bombings of Japanese cities in order to destroy Japan's production capabilities and end the war? I doubt you've heard of Unit 731's and Unit 164's live dissections of Chinese civilians or attempts to spread dysentary, anthrax, and other bacteria to Chinese civilians, but the Japanese military was responsible for raping, torturing, and killing millions of innocent Chinese; Units 731 and 164 killed 240,000 alone. What military strategies would you have used to stop the Japanese, if bombing cities to destroy production capacity was inappropriate? Or was it okay to firebomb most other cities, but not to attack Hiroshima, and if so, why?

Essentially, hippies like you are far more delusional and brainwashed than people who listen to the American media. You have minimal knowledge about both World War II and the current situation in Afghanistan, yet in both cases you condemn the United States government as evil for taking what it feels is appropriate action. Again, if you disagree with the US's current actions, provide a better solution. Incessantly whining about how world peace would be great and how bad the US has been in the past does nothing to help the current situation, and accusing supporters of the United States of being brainwashed and ignorant simply causes more problems.

[ October 21, 2001: Message edited by: Argath ]

Gabrobot
10-21-2001, 09:51 PM
Sorry, Sub-Zero, reading back through my post I realized it sounded like I was talking about you when I said this:
I'm not even going to try to respond to what you've said. I've already found out that it does no good.
Besides, you usually respond with a bunch of f****** **** that leads me to belaive that you are either really brainwashed, or really stupid. Or maybe both.



I wasn't refering to you when I said that, and mis-led would probably be a better word then brainwashed when I was talking about you.

Oninosensi, I would not let a murder go, but I wouldn't murder anyone in the process of catching the murder either.
As I see it, the terrorists should be caught and justly tried, and the US shouldn't be sending in ground troups to wipe out entire settlements.

I was a little stressed when posted that earlier message, and I'm sorry that I said what I did the way I did.

I probably haven't been very clear as to what I mean in my earlier posts, but from what you have said in your posts, I can only say one thing: I pity you.

And my name is Gabrobot, not Gadrobot. :rolleyes:

Sub-Zero
10-22-2001, 01:33 AM
oh, in that case I take back what I said, Gabrobot. I honestly thought you were talking about me and I was ready to say things people around where I live would not normally hear me say. Anyway, I am pro-pacifist, but if we have to go war, then we have to go to war. when I said something about Nazis, I didn't mean anything against the Germans, or anyone of German decsent.

rapina
10-22-2001, 02:44 AM
oninosensi ,
this is the second time that I say this:
I AM NOT against the US, it's people or it's culture or whatever.
I am criticizing THE United States of America Government and it's hunchmen the CIA. that's all.
I AM NOT insulting US people.
if you work for the gov. then, that explain everything.

I already explained
1.- the HOWTO make a "hell hole" as you call it.
2.- the WHY make it a "hell hole".
3.- and WHO has the benefit from it.

what else do you want? anyway, let's have an order here, like, why not start from Chile and Brazil to all the way to my country, as the last one.
just to make this with more order :)
and just about recent history, like the last 30 or 40 years, since most of the criminals can be alive.
or better yet, If you want to criticize the Mexican gov. go head, I can help you. :)

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: rapina ]

oninosensi
10-22-2001, 04:29 PM
rapina and Gadrobot; I think Argath put it best:
Don't try to lecture me about past US atrocities, either. I'm aware of what the US has done in the past...

Add on now the biological warfare directed at the US. Do you still believe that peace will solve this situation?

If so, your both bigger fools than I though.

You both need to study your history a lot better. You have taken fragments and though you have seen the whole picture.

Let's discuss the situation south of Mexico. I would find it amusing to see what you have to say. Besure you find out why the US has tried to put US-friendly goverments in place of the drug dealers that tend to rule these countries.

rapina
10-22-2001, 09:16 PM
ill take that as a yes...

and no dude, is all the opposite, they put those corrupted gov. to get what they want, drugs included.
hummm... you were asking for backup my statements?
well just ask to "amnistia internacional", or any other human rights groups in Latin America. or go to the UNAM or UANL university to have some history text book about your fasict Hero Pinochet.

now, did you know what was the "operacion Condor"? and who created it?

besides,
1.- I never agree with garabot broken historical statements.
2.- They arent sending latters from Afganistan.
3.- they can DESTROY for complete Afganistan iraq Iran , u name it, and this abstraction word "terrorism" will remain in the dictionary as an valid option for extremely nasty vengative people like heizbolla or any other group.

4.- you didn't read what I quote from that guy sobran or whatever, so...


ill help later to bash Mexico, no big deal, I accept any critics from anyone, that's the HUGE difference between you and me.

[ October 22, 2001: Message edited by: rapina ]

Sub-Zero
10-23-2001, 12:42 AM
The only thing I have about this country, by which I mean the U.S, is that it's too politicaliy correct. For example, DragonBall Z. In Japan it has more blood shed and swearing, but when it's in the U.S., they edit it. STupid political correct people, I wish they'd just dissapear.

Kylilin
10-23-2001, 12:59 PM
What to do if you happen upon a peace rally by stupid naive
hemp-shirt-wearing college idiots, to teach them why force is
sometimes needed:

1) Approach dumb rich ignorant student talking about "peace"
and saying there should be, "no retaliation."

2) Engage in brief conversation, ask if military force is appropriate.

3) When he says "No," ask, "Why not?"

4) Wait until he says something to the effect of, "Because that
would just cause more innocent deaths, which would be awful and
we should not cause more violence."

5) When he's in mid sentence, punch him in the face as hard
as you can.

6) When he gets back up to up to punch you, point out that
it would be a mistake and contrary to his values to strike you,
because that would, "be awful and he should not cause more violence."

7) Wait until he agrees that he has pledged not to commit
additional violence.

8) Punch him in the face again, harder this time.

Repeat steps 5 through 8 until they understand that sometimes
it is necessary to punch back.

oninosensi
10-23-2001, 04:26 PM
rapina- I see you have gathered your information from only one side of the issue. You obviously never bothered to explore both sides of the situation.

And, have also proven your lack of understanding of history. You have to got back much further than forty years before you will have a clue of why things where done the way they are.

When you can cover both sides, then I might be willing to consider your arguement.

"They did it because the US Goverment is a buncha evil bastards" is not the reason; but seems to be the only thing you are pushing.

Try to understand the why of the situation. So far you have completly missed that.

Sub-Zero
10-25-2001, 12:20 AM
I've heard that bin Laden says that per every muslim killed, he will have two christians killed. I don't know if that's true or not.....but what's he gonna do if he does do this? Hide in the mountains again like the pathetic coward he is?

oninosensi
10-26-2001, 02:18 AM
Good news for the Wiccans, I suppose... :p

rapina
10-26-2001, 06:21 AM
oh yeah, oninosensi, in fact, pinochet gov. was one of the most friendly for the British, plus he helped to kill a lot of communist in South America:
artist, singers, students, teachers, poets...
mostly students.. but commies anyway(yeah, right)...

dude, IF I WERE in, let's say CUBA, or deep in EL salvador, your statement could make some sense, but don't, I leave here near the boarder, I go VERY often to McAllenTX, and you can say that I also enjoy the Economical stablility created tru people like all those dictators/Fascist in South America,
and because of that, because I am "aware", I'm not 100% happy about that.
still you IGNORE alot about your continent.
and the REASON why this stuff happen.

oninosensi
10-26-2001, 02:17 PM
You need to re-read what I have said.

Very carefully.

Untill you can understand why things where done that way (and you oviously don't), your arguemants are basicly meaningless.