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Kurgan
04-09-2002, 01:46 PM
*****Warning, this post contains spoilers from every game in the Dark Forces series, although the ones for Dark Forces and JK2 are less serious. Others may post spoilers from JK2 that may be more serious, but I am more concerned with plot points from the Single Player Game that aid in overall series continuity******

Okay, earlier on here I made some comments about the storyline continuity and realized I made a few errors, so here, to help revise my comments, are the opening crawls to all the games (considered as primary evidence). ; )

I'm not an expert on all of the EU continuity, so any comments are appreciated, and if Raven/LEC people care to comment, even better!

Basically I'd like to resolve the recently posted comments on Starwars.com which, after re-reading it a few times, APPEARS to place JK2 before MotS, but after JK1. I would like to know if they are full of it, or what was intended, and if we can't get a more "official" response, maybe we can piece it together ourselves. I have not beaten the game, but I have talked to people who have, and I don't see the connection (when I do beat the game I can say for sure).

(SW.com article here: http://www.starwars.com/databank/character/kylekatarn/eu.html)

--------------------------

DARK FORCES Opening Crawl (PC version)

The New Order of the Empire stretches its evil cluthces across the galaxy, consuming planets with devastating results. Through many struggles, the Rebel Alliance has learned of a new Imperial battlestation, the DEATH STAR, with enough power to destroy an entire planet.

Unable to acquire the plans to the deadly space station, the Rebels have employed the skills of KYLE KATARN, known to most as a mercenary for hire, Katarn is a rogue figure who has a partial alliance with the Rebels.

Armed only with a blaster pistol and an intimate knowledge of Imperial methods, Kyle prepares to infiltrate the Imperial base where the plans are kept...

Continuity: A short time before
Episode IV: A New Hope

The game continues and has appearences by Darth Vader, Jabba the Hutt and Boba Fett (placing it before Return of the Jedi).


--------------------------
DARK FORCES II: JEDI KNIGHT Opening Crawl

Dark Forces II
Jedi Knight

Since the destruction of the second DEATH STAR, the Rebel Alliance has begun the difficult process of building the New Republic.

Siezing the opportunity for control of the galaxy, new rival armies arise. The most dangerous of these are the Dark Jedi their leader, JEREC, seeks the legendary VALLEY OF THE JEDI. Within this lost battleground he will find untold power to destroy peace and justice in the galaxy...


Kyle begins with a Green saber (which was given to his father by Qu Rahn for safe keeping before his death, with the intention of giving it to Kyle). Kyle's father Morgan Katarn, as we know, was killed before Kyle started fighting on the side of the Rebels (initially he fought for the Empire, due to the coverup, thinking that the Rebels were responsible for Morgan's death, according to the Dark Forces 1 manual and the novels).

If you follow the light path Kyle uses the green saber, but it is destroyed, and he takes Yun's gold/yellow saber to use instead, and finishes the game with this new blade.

If you follow the Dark path, Kyle uses the green blade throughout, but this continuity isn't followed in any of the other games.

-------------------------------------
JEDI KNIGHT: MYSTERIES OF THE SITH Opening Crawl

Mysteries of the Sith

It has been over five years since Jerec was defeated at the Valley of the Jedi. Kyle Katarn, continuing his pursuit of the light side of the Force, has joined the fragile New Republic in the struggle against the Empire.

To aid in their cause Kyle has traveled to a remote base in the Altyr System, accompanied by Mara Jade, a young smuggler who sought out Kyle in the hope that he might further her Jedi Training.

Mara, once a powerful agent of the Emperor, was swayed from the Dark Path by Luke Skywalker. She now seeks knowledge of the role she will play in the continuing struggle for the galaxy...

Kyle begins the game with an orange saber and uses it throughout. Some have CLAIMED that at the end of the game Kyle uses a red saber, to show his temptation to the Dark Side. However I dispute this claim, as the final cutscene shows his saber as orange. Mara uses a purple saber throughout the game.

-------------------------
JEDI KNIGHT II: JEDI OUTCAST Opening Crawl

Jedi Knight II:
JEDI OUTCAST

It is a time of relative peace in the galaxy. Eight years have passed since the Empire was defeated at the BATTLE OF ENDOR,
but the New Republic still struggles to restore order and vanquish its enemies.

After defending the Valley of the Jedi from the evil Jerec and nearly falling to the Dark Side himself, former Jedi Knight Kyle Katarn has severed his connection with the Force, returning to his mercenary ways. With his long time partner, Jan Ors, Kyle continues to aid the Republic in the fight against the IMPERIAL REMNANT.

As the Remnant launches its latest gambit to regain control of the galaxy, Kyle and Jan have been sent by the New Republic to investigate the planet KEJIM, a long-dead Imperial outpost...

In JK2, Kyle gets his BLUE saber back, which he gave to Luke some years ago. According to a person I talked to, the "blue" saber is never explained in the game. Logically, it should be gold/yellow (if it follows JK) or orange (if it follows MotS), yet it is blue, but it is supposedly "Kyle's" saber.

----------------------------

So here are my questions (ignoring SW.com's comments for a bit):

1) How well does JK2 follow Dark Forces series continuity?

2) Does it seem more reasonable to assume that MotS takes place before or after JK2, or that it was simply ignored?

3) Does the regular chronology (DF, JK, MotS, JK2) make sense with the rest of the EU and canon film chronology?

4) What was the intention of LEC/Raven when making the game? Was continuity strictly adhered to? Will this be explained, or is the SW.com mystery all that we can hope for?

Thanks for any comments, and I may not be able to respond for awhile... ; p

D66
04-09-2002, 02:36 PM
It seemed to me when I first loaded the game and read the JO opening crawl, that MOTS just Didn't happen at all. I would assume it was ignored...
Just as I usualy ignore Starwars.com in favor of theForce.net...

As to saber colors.... I have NO idea what's going on there

Vanor
04-09-2002, 03:58 PM
I could be wrong, but I think the "almost falling to the darkside himself" is a nod at MotS. I don't remember Kyle almost falling to the dark side in JK1. He could take that path, but that path isn't reconized by any other game.

A couple people had some good theories about the blue saber, around here. One I remember was that Kyle made a new saber after MotS when he was training with Luke.

Zek
04-09-2002, 04:07 PM
"After defending the Valley of the Jedi from the evil Jerec and nearly falling to the Dark Side himself,"

This suggests to me that Kyle gave up the force after almost going totally to the Dark Side in MotS. That makes it impossible to come up with a logical explanation for Kyle's blue saber, however.

Assuming MotS did happen before JO, here's the best idea I've been able to think of for his blue saber: After not being able to kill Mara in MotS, Kyle mentions himself being the student again. This definitely suggests he intends to relearn the ways of the force. It seems to me that he probably was tutored by someone, probably Luke(though he seems not to have officially joined the Academy, judging by his comments in the JO ending), and made a new saber as part of his training(as is traditional). He then, for reasons unknown, decided that he might fall to the Dark Side again, and gave his lightsaber to Luke for safekeeping.

As for his saber in the end of MotS, I specifically remember it being red. If I still have the save file there(I just played through it again before JO came out) I'll check out the ending cutscene when I get home. It is possible that the red saber was just a fluke; I always assumed they thought it was necessary to illustrate his evilness, which I thought was stupid.

Edit: Vanor, he did almost fall to the dark side in JK. He kills Maw in cold blood, and definitely shows some hesitance in deciding whether or not to kill Jan. Still, the sentence makes it sound as if it happened after defeating Jerec.

Kurgan
04-09-2002, 05:19 PM
Kyle begins the game with an orange saber and uses it throughout. Some have CLAIMED that at the end of the game Kyle uses a red saber, to show his temptation to the Dark Side. However I dispute this claim, as the final cutscene shows his saber as orange.

So, if you can produce the screenshot(s)/save game files, I'd most appreciate it. When I played the game, there was a glitch, so that Kyle's saber was invisible (no blade) but you could see it of course in the cutscene.

Cmdr. Cracken
04-09-2002, 06:11 PM
Simple. Lightsaber crystals don't last forever. Sure, they last a while, but like any other part, they probably need to be replaced. Since Skywalker is so good with the Force, he probably kept that lightsaber in good working order, and when the crystal burned out (maybe he used it for a trainee or something.) he replaced it, and made it blue.

This is perfectly logical.

Zek
04-09-2002, 08:26 PM
Why would Luke betray Kyle's trust by giving his saber to someone else?

DigitalVapor
04-09-2002, 09:36 PM
Though I'm sure this is not the case, Starwars.com makes it sound as if MotS comes AFTER Jedi Outcast!
Deep in the Valley of the Jedi, Kyle confronted Jerec, the very man who had killed Morgan Katarn. The two did battle, and when Kyle slew Jerec, he fulfilled an ancient prophecy. The spirits of long-dead Jedi, trapped in the Valley for a thousand years, were finally freed. Several years later, the Valley of the Jedi became a focal point in the struggle between Kyle Katarn and the Dark Jedi Desann.


Long used to operating independently, Katarn at first refused Luke Skywalker's offer to become a Jedi apprentice. Instead, he continued to serve the Alliance, now the New Republic, on many important missions. After a troubling run-in with the dark side on the forgotten Sith world of Dromund Kaas, Katarn conceded that he would benefit from Skywalker's tutelage, and joined the Jedi Master's fledgling Jedi academy.

I just had a thought, Perhaps this is not in chronological order. Because I just considered that after kyle's brief experience with the dark side in MotS, Kyle, like it says above, joins the academy, builds a new lightsaber and eventualy decides he is too unstable to continue being a jedi and turns away from the ways of the force. Then we begin with JO

matt--
04-09-2002, 10:36 PM
According to SW.com, Kyle's ship is still the Moldy Crow...and yet it mentions Desann.

Very interesting.

I'm going to ignore SW.com's entry.

I think the orange saber in MotS is supposed to be gold, meaning it is Yun's saber.

That would mean that we went back to Jedi training after MotS and built a new, blue saber as a part of that training. He then later decided, for as yet unknown reasons, that it was too risky to pursue his life as a Jedi.

So then where is Jan in MotS?
Maybe Kyle and Mara Jade were both on a mission from the Jedi Academy. Since Jan isn't training to be a jedi, she couldn't accompany them.

DigitalVapor
04-09-2002, 10:50 PM
I have determined that I have the best explanation for the change from orange to blue lightsaber color.
!!!!!SPOILER AHEAD!!!!!

After defeating Jerek at the Valley of the Jedi, Luke Skywalker asked Kyle to join the Jedi Academy. Kyle refused, prefering to continue serving as an agent of the republic. After Kyle's brush with the Dark Side in the Sith Temple on Dromund Kaas (MotS) He decided that he would benefit from joining the Jedi Academy.
There he built himself a new lightsaber with a blue blade. During Kyle's time at the academy, he became unsure of himself. Fearing that he would lose control and fall to the dark side again, Kyle gave his lightsaber to Luke and vowed never to use the force again. However, things change when Kyle has a traumatic encounter with Dark Jedi and former Jedi Academy student Desann.

DigitalVapor
04-09-2002, 10:58 PM
Logicaly Jan was left out due to the attempt to replace her with Mara. OR they simply forgot to throw her in. But for continuity's sake, a good explanation is that Kyle went on a mission with his new apprentice Mara Jade leaving nothing for Jan to do. So Jan takes on another mission outside the MotS storyline

digl
04-09-2002, 11:03 PM
DigitalVapor what was the need for a new thread ?:confused: :confused:
I merged them.

matt--
04-09-2002, 11:06 PM
DigitalVapor,
Your idea sounds exactly like mine...great minds think alike, huh?
:rolleyes:

:p

Digl,
You beat me to the merge.
:mad:

;)

digl
04-10-2002, 12:22 AM
Originally posted by matt-windu
DigitalVapor,

Digl,
You beat me to the merge.
:mad:

;) Originally posted by matt-windu
Your idea sounds exactly like mine...great minds think alike, huh?
:rolleyes:

:p
;)
;)

Lord Odisse
04-10-2002, 12:58 AM
In an interview in a UK magazine they said that in the single player game you can only have three Lightsaber colours (Red, Blue and Green) according to George Lucas himself, Red is evil while Blue and Green are good, that's the way they are he retorts, if you watch this on-line documentary on the Jedi and their weapons from Episode II you'll notice that the "only" exception to this rule is Mace Windu's Lightsaber which is purple and that's only because Jackson asked specifically for it:

http://www.starwars.com/episode-ii/video/making/making10.html

It does explain why in every single image from the films we've seen why the "good" Jedi use only blue and green Lightsabers (except Mace of course)

http://www.vengeance-unlimited.org/Jedi%20Outcast/barriss_promo.jpg

http://www.vengeance-unlimited.org/Jedi%20Outcast/luminara_official.jpg

http://www.vengeance-unlimited.org/Jedi%20Outcast/promo2_anakin.jpg

http://www.vengeance-unlimited.org/Jedi%20Outcast/yoda_kids2.jpg

Mace Windu's purple Lightsaber:

http://www.vengeance-unlimited.org/Jedi%20Outcast/promo_mace1.jpg

http://www.vengeance-unlimited.org/Jedi%20Outcast/promo_mace2.jpg

Covax
04-10-2002, 01:10 AM
That still does not explain why Kyle's lighsaber was Blue in JKO when we last saw him with an orange saber in MotS. I COULD understand if he would've made his own after JK I but it would hadly fit in with all the 'I'm done with that Jedi stuff' attitude.

Wes Janson SMR
04-10-2002, 01:15 AM
I always thought that Kyle and Mare were "stuck" on the New Repulbic base during their first scene in MotS. During the time, the two got to know each other, and Kyle was still dealing with his growing (and powerful) Jedi abilities.

Once Mara found about Kyle's abilities, maybe she asked him for a few "pointers" during their stay. Like Kyle, she never felt like she'd be the poster-child for the ways of a Jedi Knight, so maybe he had some tips. You know, one "Just a guy" to one "Just a gal"...with Lightsabers.

And when Kyle went batty, Mara probably thought it best for her to stop him since developing a repore.

I need to play the game again. Or...Just skip through and watch the ooglay cutscenes. ;-)

And as for Kyle's red saber at the end of MotS, I'll bet money that it was simply an old Sith Lightsaber he found in that temple. Think about it: There were abundant amounts of "living satues" with 'Sabers......

*thinks*

Perhapse..... Perhapse Kyle destroyed Yun's gold Lightsaber in favor for one of the Sith 'Sabers! Yeah. He got rid of it. Why would a budding Dark Jedi hold on to a goodie-goodie's Lightsaber with his "Light Side stench" all over it? He ditched the 'Saber for the Sith's one (which happens to be red), and almost falls completely to the Dark Path.

After Mara talks some sense back into Kyle, he seeks Luke's guidance in controling his powers. Again, that red Sith 'Saber that Kyle picked up had that bad Force vibe that reminded him too much of what he feared he might become. So as apart of his training, he built his own Lightsaber, which happens to be blue.

But with all his training, he couldn't shake the responsibility that came with Jedi-hood, so he essentially said the equivolent of "The hell with this," and left the accademy for the better of him and the Galaxy.

He makes a living working for the New Republic, and here we are at Jedi Knight II.

But here's the trick...... For a super soldier like Kyle to take out entire bases of Stormtroopers, you'd think that he still unconsciously relied upon some passive Force experiences. Like Anakin and his Pod Racing deal. And I'm talking all the way to the first Dark Forces game. You think any mere mortal can take on a Kell Dragon bare-handed? Or Boba Fette?! '-)

Any of this make sense?

Emon
04-10-2002, 01:19 AM
Those colors aren't necisarily true. I'm not saying George Lucas is wrong, I'm saying you misread the info, or it was misread and mistyped... He's even said before those colors are common preference for dark or light, but it's no set rule. Lowbacca has a red lightsaber, and he is a light jedi.

Lord Odisse
04-10-2002, 01:27 AM
Originally posted by Covax
That still does not explain why Kyle's lighsaber was Blue in JKO when we last saw him with an orange saber in MotS. I COULD understand if he would've made his own after JK I but it would hadly fit in with all the 'I'm done with that Jedi stuff' attitude.

Under the Heading of an article in said games magazine "Does Colour Matter" LucasArts response to the this seemingly innocent question is surprisingly nervy, Tom Sarris, director of public relations offers this explaination, "We have to be consistent with what happens in the films, and choosing the colour of your Lightsaber would represent an inconsistency. While it may be something players want, we still have to adhere to the Star Wars rules. Licensing does give us latitude when it comes to multiplayer. When it comes to single-player we have to stick to the rules much more strictly. I know it sounds hypocritical, but in multiplayer there has to be a little bit more latitude given and thankfully licensing gave us that."

Lord Odisse
04-10-2002, 01:30 AM
Originally posted by Emon
Those colors aren't necisarily true. I'm not saying George Lucas is wrong, I'm saying you misread the info, or it was misread and mistyped... He's even said before those colors are common preference for dark or light, but it's no set rule. Lowbacca has a red lightsaber, and he is a light jedi.

Watch the online documentary he specifically says what colour Lightsabers "good" and "evil" Jedi use, you're confusing the EU with the actual one that Lucas himself created.

Kurgan
04-10-2002, 01:41 AM
I just realized I wrote "Either years" instead of "Eight years"

doh...

Incidentally, I talked to three other people who've beaten the game, all confirm that the blue saber is never explained in the SP campaign. IIRC, at last QuakeCon, a LEC/Raven rep who was demoing JK2 replied to comments about the saber color that it would "be explained."

Nice theory Wes, but again, there's the problem of Kyle trading up the red saber for a gold one in the final cutscene (??!!).

And I might be wrong, but didn't the Sith statues also use orange lightsabers? I might be mistaken, but I think the only person I remember using a red saber is Mara's evil twin.

The SW.com entry also mentions a green saber, which as we know, Kyle hasn't used since his early adventures in the Valley. I'm guessing they just slapped in the references to Desann to fit JK2 into their article, without playing the game.

WinkyHarper
04-10-2002, 01:47 AM
Personally I think everyone's making too much of an issue out of the continuity. If the game was really in step with established canon, one would have a hard time explaining why Kyle was fighting seven Dark Jedi (with the aid of a rather old Jedi Master, no less) in Jedi Knight; after all, Palpatine and Vader wiped out all but two of the Jedi (the two being Obi-Wan and Yoda, of course). Even if you choose to follow the "Expanded Universe" mythology, one would still be hard-pressed to explain that huge hole in JK's plot.
Anyway, they're all awesome games, and I guess that's the important thing.

Saient
04-10-2002, 01:48 AM
Emon.

George Lucas and Starwars there is absolutly no way that he can be wrong. If you read the expanded Universe.. Most of that would be considered wrong by Lucas's Stand point. If Geroge Lucas says RED is for Sith then your Expanded Universe is wrong
even our Jedi Knight games are wrong, He could release a 1 more movie with Carrie Fisher and Harrison Ford end up not being Married because of the Jedi arn't supossed to love thing.

even though george hasn't done himself any credit IMHO

Greedo shooting 1st
the Sarlac Pit in special edition
Jar-Jar
Medichlorians
Anakin being concived like Jesus
ect

It remains HIS story and HIS story alone.
everything else is side line.. while cool it may be.. its not really starwars more like a spoof of starwars or a what might happen next. shouldn't really be taken seriously

I've read quite a bit of the expanded universe and everytime I pick something I get the feeling of ... ah this is someone elses dipiction. its not really STARWARS.. but its kinda starwars
then I think to myself.. "they're all cashing in on it"

Tim Zahn is a prime example

Why Kyle's Katarns Saber is Blue now??? Who cares
he's just a game character.. he became a jedi by finding a saber hidden in his droid! and somehow game across 7 Dark Jedi
wow... where did they come from?

no matter how crap Episode 1 is.. its George's Story and its more Starwars then anything in the Expanded Universe

nuff said

Kurgan
04-10-2002, 01:55 AM
Winky: I personally don't think its too much to ask to look for consistency in the Dark Forces series. I'm not asking for the novels to gel with the games or the games to gel with movies or other books (though that may help us fill in some of the holes), just the games to agree with each other, story-wise.

Besides, if you think having seven dark jedi is a big deal, then most of the EU needs to be thrown out, we have stadiums full of Jedi and Jedi-wannabes. It would make sense that some of them might get together and make a power grab. I'm not asking for film canon, just some consistency between games in a series using characters that they created. I know Raven created JK2, but they were using LEC's characters and themes, and LEC oversaw the project. ; )

I just ran across the whole "lightsabers don't work in water" deal in JK2's single player. Another anomaly... they worked fine in JK/MotS. I guess Kyle got this blue saber at K-Mart!

MankaCat
04-10-2002, 02:35 AM
well apparently in the Episode 2 Visual Dictionary (yet to be released) it is revealed the red sabers are made by synthetically produced Sith crystals
or something

Wes Janson SMR
04-10-2002, 02:36 AM
Hey, if statues can weild Lightsabers, I don't think Kyle finding a red one is all that far-fetched. All I know is that he couldn't have made one in that short ammount of time, and he probably didn't change the crystals in Yun's - you know, just for the sake of having a red 'Saber. Because as we all know, red is simply the color accessory for evil Jedi these days. ;-)

But I think Kyle got rid of Yun's. Personally, I'd think he would have continued to use Yun's if he hadn't already ditched it (supposedly) in MotS. I'm sticking with my reasons. Kyle built a new one because he didn't want to use the Dark Side-tanted one he nearly killed Mara with...

...And to further his Jedi training of course. '-)

But under no circumstances did, or would, Luke give Kyle's Lightsaber to another student. [This in response to a comment above]

digl
04-10-2002, 02:41 AM
I force merged the thread started by Lord Odisse

Lord Odisse
04-10-2002, 06:30 AM
Originally posted by digl
I force merged the thread started by Lord Odisse

You are indeed powerful, with a "force" power like that anything is possible :D

ChrisTheS
04-10-2002, 07:36 AM
In response to Saient:

Just because Lucas says a thing is true about Star Wars does not mean that we have to believe him. There comes a point at which a setting reaches a critical mass, when its fan base is so great that it takes on an existence independent of its creator. Star Wars passed that critical mass long ago. Of the multitude Star Wars fans I've actually talked to about this (most of them former Black Sun Empire members), ALL of them would throw a fit if Lucas did anything that contradicted something that blatantly contradicted a mainstay of the Expanded Universe (such as Zahn's work). Now, Lucas can say what is canon and what is not, but if we, the fans, believe something to be part of the setting, then it will still be part of the setting to us even if Lucas does something to contradict it. Lucas has the right to say what he thinks the setting should be like, but we have an equal right to decide for ourselves what we choose to believe about events (for example, as far as I'm concerned midichlorians do not exist, and Anakin did not have an immaculate conception, because both of those concepts are bloody stupid).

In response to the issue of continuity:
I'm actually in the process of creating a 3d-rendered comic-book format adaptation of the entire Dark Forces series, which I'll be putting up online at my 3d art site (when I get more than the first 2 pages done, I'll tell everyone the link). I've had to work out some of the issues in continuity (specifically with regard to the difference in appearance of Kyle and Jan between Dark Forces and Jedi Knight), but the issue of saber colors between JK/MOTS/JO I've brushed over with the assumption that the saber colors used in MOTS are total BS. As far as I'm concerned, Kyle is still using Yun's saber in MOTS, and Mara is still using Anakin Skywalker's blue blade, regardless of what the actual fact of the graphics seem to indicate.

AKPiggott
04-10-2002, 10:34 AM
Lemmie stick a couple of notes in for further argument:

Kyle definately has an ORANGE saber at the end of MotS, no question about it. I've played the game lot's of times and it is definately orange.

Also, doesn't one of the Jedi council members (the Indian woman with the weird hair I think) have a red saber? I'm almost certain of it.

Kurgan
04-10-2002, 11:04 AM
The "immaculate conception" refers to the Catholic doctrine of Mary's being born without original sin, it has nothing to do with people being born without human fathers (people confuse this with the "virgin birth" of Christ all the time).

Zek
04-10-2002, 03:29 PM
"I just ran across the whole "lightsabers don't work in water" deal in JK2's single player. Another anomaly... they worked fine in JK/MotS. I guess Kyle got this blue saber at K-Mart!"

I heard an explanation on this forum of how this was explained in Episode I... In the scene where they first meet Jar-Jar, Obi Wan doesn't use his lightsaber, because he left it on when they fell into water(I have to watch that movie again, don't remember that happening) and thus it didn't work for a little while afterwards or something. Apparently there was a removed scene where Qui-Gon scolds him for it.

Kurgan
04-10-2002, 03:48 PM
If the scene was ever actually filmed, it isn't available to the public... it exists in the novelisation of Episode I (by Terry Brooks), and the Episode I screenplay. Those are canon sources (after the films) so it counts.

I've watched the Episode I DVD with all its extras, and no, the scene was NOT added back in, and cannot be viewed. It is simply left out of the movie.

HOWEVER.. my point was simply that since the Dark Forces series is EU, it is not bound to follow any issues of "canon." It simply doesn't matter. The fact that JK2 "follows canon" is fine, but it breaks with the whole rest of the series, where lightsabers worked fine in water. I also think that Episode 2 may explain this issue further...

One could explain away the differences between Episode I and the EU on the issue of underwater sabers by saying that sometime after the events of Episode I, waterproof sabers were perfected, or else Obi-Wan's saber was a low quality model, unsuited for that type of thing.

Zek
04-10-2002, 04:19 PM
In terms of Star Wars physics, I honestly couldn't care less if they made JK2 closer to the movie in that regard than the previous games were. What I care about is when they hurt the continuity of the series in an attempt to change something that is in EU but unacceptable in official Star Wars(which is my best guess as to why they insisted on making Kyle's saber blue). If I'm not mistaken, there isn't a saber in the singleplayer game that isn't blue, green or red. JK and MotS were most definitely placed in the EU, so it seems ridiculous to me that they would try to get closer to the movie in JK2. This is further demonstrated by the characters; Mara is gone without a trace(much like Jan in MotS), and more movie characters were added in(Luke and Lando, though they're in EU too). This is even dumber considering the whole storyline is based on things like the New Republic and the Jedi Academy anyway.

Changing subjects...

No one can deny that Star Wars has evolved beyond the movies, but it seems some people here consider everything not made by Lucas to be "wrong". It has to be understood that Star Wars and the Star Wars EU are two entirely separate things, now so more than ever. The "real" Star Wars is Episodes 1-6. Anything Lucas says is just how it is, no room for argument.

The EU has grown into its own separate entity. Nothing Lucas says matters here anymore, really; the original 3 movies were the base for the EU, and now it's entirely separate and no one cares what Lucas tries to do to the series anymore. Some of the books are so mainstream that they might as well be official in the eyes of many Star Wars fans, and personally I dislike it when Lucas contradicts well-established EU concepts like different colored sabers. It's his series and he can do what he wants with it, but people who say the EU means nothing because Lucas doesn't acknowledge it are missing the point.

Camerhil
04-10-2002, 04:52 PM
There's one other possible explanation for the whole lightsaber colour debate. Have you noticed that it's only the learners who use blue sabers? Luke has one in Empire before he's a fully fledged Jedi, but when he makes his own (when his powers have matured) it changes colour to green.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Obi-Wan's saber in TPM blue, and Qui-Gonn's green? Haven't watched this film a lot, so I can't really remember. If so, this does suggest that blue is the learner's colour.

It would then make sense for Kyle to adopt a blue saber when re-learning the force. It might also explain Yun's yellow saber as a dark side equivalent. You could argue that Darth Maul should then have had a yellow saber, but since he's a fully-fledged Darth, he'd probably qualify for a nice big red one all of his own.

As for purple sabers, well, some people just have to be different. It makes me laugh picturing Jackson having a face off with Lucas, saying something like "All the candy-ass white men have their own colours, but what about the bruthas? If I can't have a black saber, I guess purple will have to do".

Or maybe not.

AKPiggott
04-10-2002, 04:57 PM
Not just learners, old Ben Kenobi used a blue one.

Camerhil
04-10-2002, 05:15 PM
Oh God Dammit :p

There is absolutely no way you could describe him as a learner. Unless, of course, you think about the idea that he gave up being a Jedi after screwing up Anakin's education so royally, and thus never switched his saber. But this is dodgy, I admit.

Oh well, and it seemed like such a good idea...

Ushgarak
04-10-2002, 08:54 PM
Can someone tell me why Morgan Katarn appears as a ghost in JO? Even assuming that the Valley of the Jedi allows ghost form outside the normal rules of the film (in which the only people that do it are the three people from the OT), shouln't it be Rahn? Morgan was never a Jedi.

Wes Janson SMR
04-10-2002, 09:00 PM
...Or was he?...

*cue sinister music*

Covax
04-11-2002, 12:37 AM
Minor Point:

I DO think that EU continuity does impact on the overall aspect of the films. Mara Jade, for example, was added into the Special Edition of RotJ. I have no idea if she was purely Zhan's creation or a never-used Lucas plotline, but she has E.U. origins.

Heck, purists can even debate that the S.E. films are out of cannon, just look at the 'who shot Greedo' debates.

Kurgan
04-11-2002, 12:51 AM
Mara Jade, for example, was added into the Special Edition of RotJ.

Where?

Wes Janson SMR
04-11-2002, 12:54 AM
He's probably talking about the red-haired alien dancer in Jabba's palice - who also did a little flirting with Boba Fett.

But her being Mara is purely speculation. Boba and the alien singers were given slightly larger rolls on purprose. But I don't think that was Mara.

Hmm.. Let's check the credits.

Vestril
04-11-2002, 04:35 AM
A very minor point to DigitalVapor's MUCH earlier post, Desann and Kyle first met just before Tavion did her dirty little business, Desann was suprised to see Kyle as such a weak looking person 'THIS is the great Kyle Katarn??'

And a note about EU VS 'Real' Star Wars. You basically have to divide the two in your mind, because GL has chosen to ignore the Expanded Universe, and I, a die-hard fan of the books, can totally understand this, I mean there is just some EU stuff that is crap, and just plain doesn't make sense, and why should he, the guy that made all of this up, change his plans for 3rd rate writing (again, a lot of it was great, but some is just plain bad *cough cough* Jedi Academy Series *cough cough*

The only real hitch to that is that Coruscant appeared in Heir to the Empire before it ever appeared in a movie, but actually Lucas made it up and gave Zahn two choices for names of the planets (I forget what the other was). And to those who have already judged Episode I and things like Jar-Jar and midichlorians as crap, keep in mind that this movie is part of a series, two movies of which you haven't seen.

ChrisTheS
04-11-2002, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan
The "immaculate conception" refers to the Catholic doctrine of Mary's being born without original sin, it has nothing to do with people being born without human fathers (people confuse this with the "virgin birth" of Christ all the time).

Correction accepted. I actually knew that, but since I wrote that post late at night it slipped my attention...

-- ChrisTheS

ChrisTheS
04-11-2002, 05:19 AM
Originally posted by Vestril

And a note about EU VS 'Real' Star Wars. You basically have to divide the two in your mind, because GL has chosen to ignore the Expanded Universe, and I, a die-hard fan of the books, can totally understand this, I mean there is just some EU stuff that is crap, and just plain doesn't make sense, and why should he, the guy that made all of this up, change his plans for 3rd rate writing (again, a lot of it was great, but some is just plain bad *cough cough* Jedi Academy Series *cough cough*

I am of the opinion that if he didn't intend the stuff that became the Expanded Universe to be a 'real' part of the setting, he should never have approved Heir to the Empire in the first place. By allowing the Expanded Universe to exist, he essentially said "Fine, this stuff is now a part of my setting, and I don't have a problem with that." Anything that he DID have a problem with, he should have said so and prevented from it from reaching the public (I have to agree on the issues of low quality work... but in those cases he should have said, flat-out, "I don't like this, so you can't publish it.") But once he's put the stamp of approval on it, so to speak, he ought to hold himself to it. He should take an example from Tolkien; JRRT was meticulous about not contradicting any part of his own work that had been previously published, and I don't see how a filmmaker should be any different from an author.

Of course, 'ought' and 'is' are entirely different, and it's plain that Lucas has allowed the fact that he owns a multi-million-dollar concept go to his head, more's the pity.

And to those who have already judged Episode I and things like Jar-Jar and midichlorians as crap, keep in mind that this movie is part of a series, two movies of which you haven't seen.

A six-part series, mind, FOUR of which we HAVE already seen, in which Lucas has contradicted himself at least twice (as far as I know... probably more, but I haven't seen TPM enough to have noticed more specifics).
(And personally, I don't have any problem with Jar-Jar... although the fact that he's a blatant stand-in for C3PO's comic relief role would have been more redeeming had the droid not then appeared in the movie...)

farmerBob
04-11-2002, 06:17 AM
Everybody seems to assume that light saber's are impervious to the effects of wear and tear brought about by time and usage. There's nothing that says light sabers don't wear out. I know if I was a jedi, I'd be practicing with mine constantly. I would expect to build a new one every 5 years or so AT LEAST. And that assumes it doesn't get smashed by a rock or some other unfortunate turn of events (remember when Boc destroyed Kyle's saber in JK1?) !!!

As for Jerec popping out of nowhere (assuming Vader wiped out most of the powerful jedi), I like to think that Palpatine had a few master apprentices stationed out in "back water" areas, to pull out of his pocket in case something happened to Vader. It would definitely explain why Jerec seemed to inherit a lot of Imperial toys and power.

My comments on the timeline:
1. In JK1, Kyle defeats Jerec and promptly goes back to his old merc trade... not much room for jedi values in that profession, PLUS it would be hard to earn the trust of certain shadier individuals if you were a known jedi.
2. JK2 shakes up Kyle a lot and his relationship with Jan really gets him thinking about what really is important in life. Making some important life-style decisions, Kyle trains under Luke after his tropical vacation with Jan.
3. Finally, Kyle is skilled enough to take on his first apprentice, Mara, and eventually we get MOTS.

It just doesn't make sense for Kyle to become powerful and knowledgable enough to actually train another jedi, and then totally forget EVERYTHING, like he did at the beginning of JK2. All logic points to JK1, JK2, then MOTS. (Kyle even LOOKS younger in JK2 than MOTS)

Wes Janson SMR
04-11-2002, 07:09 AM
Lightsabers are very prone to wear and tear - and must be maintained with care. But if what you're saying is true, then Luke should have replaced his 'Saber a loooogn-arsed time ago. Jedi can keep their Lightsabers up to specs without the need to rebuild a new one. It's a part of their way of life. A Force-imbuned Lightsaber is a part of that Jedi, and it's been shown (in the books) that Lightsabers indeed last a long time. And if their not in use (for years), wear and tear are at a minimum.

I still think that Mara's not a student of Kyle by any means. I'm still sticking by my idea that Kyle and Mara had come to that Rebel base at the same time (purely coincidental), and for some reason, were stuck there. Perhapse there was Remnent activity, and they didn't want anyone to alert them to their presence... Which happened anyway.

Mara found out about Kyle's abilities and situation, him simply being an average Joe, simply trying to cope with his abilities. Mara would sell her franchise before training as a Jedi student under Skywalker, so she asked Kyle for tips, since she's basically in the same boat.

Once they get into it, Kyle finds that he has a lot to offer Mara in the way of advice and techniques he'd learnt over the years. But just when they really get into it, Remnant forces attack, and force Alliance crews off the base. Kyle stumbles on the new Sith crap, whyle Mara takes it upon herself to find, and deal with Kyle. She's the only one who's close enough - with any knowledge of the man. And again, Skywalker and his Jedi Praxeum wouldn't be her first choice for help.

She finally tracks Kyle down. But by the time she gets to him, he's gone mad from all the Dark Side karma. The two had become friends during their time on the base - and they were allies on the war front of the Galaxy.

Mara talked some sense back into Kyle, and he kicked his own arse for allowing himself to get so involved with the Dark power. He goes to Luke for guidance - Mara probably it was a good idea, too seeing as Kyle almost chopped her in two.

Kyle builds his own Lightsaber, moving on from Yun's. But during his training, he probably found that he wasn't very happy. And he had nearly fallen completely to the Dark Side twice. He probably thought it best to quit now, before he turned bad perminently. He gave his 'Saber to Luke, and willed his personal connection to the Force away. His powers went dormant after a long time of non-use and meditation. And he continued to make his living at what he does best: hardcore mercenary work. Go in, shoot 'em up, get the superweapon plans, and get the hell out. And ask questions when applicable.

And here we are at Jedi Knight II.

Where was Jan in all of this? Well, during the previous games, Jan and Kyle were strictly professional, and were good friends (after all, he saved her arse from the Empire). While he was playing Mr. Jedi during MotS, she probably had her own life to deal with. You saw Kyle's surprise when she saved him at the beginning of JK1 - so they're not together all the time anyway.

They probably got back together when he started working agian.

And as for Mara's lack of appearance in JK2, again, she has her own life. I'm not sure if she's still with Karde during this game, but if not, she's too busy expanding her own trading business. She probably wouldn't drop everything just to say, "Hey, Kyle!" Especially when it was between the Empire and New Republic.

But you never know what'll happen in the next expansion pack, or game.

And, my theory ends.

Vestril
04-11-2002, 09:46 AM
A six-part series, mind, FOUR of which we HAVE already seen, in which Lucas has contradicted himself at least twice (as far as I know... probably more, but I haven't seen TPM enough to have noticed more specifics).

When does he contradict himself (honestly curious) and since TPM is as far from the new series as you can get, and you haven't seen any transition it's hard to say. My point about Ep 1 comes basically from a review Harry Knowles gave Ep2 after seeing a rough cut, he stated (I believe) that Episode 1 made a good deal more sense after having seen it, and it opened me up to the posibility that there is a lot going on we don't know about (Darth Vader is such a typical bad guy, all bad, no redeeming qualities, how boring--whooooooops lol).

And you make a valid point about the Star Wars literature, but why deprive the fans of their fun just so you can be a perfectionist, it seems simpler to make two seperate worlds. More than that the books were all a marketing ploy, don't you realize that? Think of the timing, they were just to get people gradually more interested in Star Wars and more and more curious about what went on before the movies happened. If you watch the documentaries about TPM Lucas was prepping his tech well before he made the movie, I imagine he did the same to his audience. It worked for me, if the books hadn't come out, and been out for such a long time I never would have been as hardcore a fan. To accomplish that you have to consistently pump books out, and that means dropping to second rate authors (and occasionally first rate =). You can say what you will, but it's easy to criticize when you've never made a movie, or an impact on the scale that George Lucas has, and few people have done that, so I would say that few people have room to criticize the man, he does a good job, even if someone needs to rewrite his trite, trite dialogue =P (ok, I'm not THAT ironic...)

Vestril
04-11-2002, 09:50 AM
Oh, one other point about the whole books-as-a-marketing-ploy theory, if you look at the timing of the NJO, and it's decidedly organized nature, you can see that it's a way of selling a lot of books and keeping SW fans happy between films =) It started shortly after TMP was released, and will end shortly before Ep3 is released *thinks* I wonder if that's just a coincidence...

AKPiggott
04-11-2002, 10:34 AM
Regarding EU having an impact on film:

Didn't a ship from Shadows of the Empire briefly appear in A New Hope SE?

Kurgan
04-11-2002, 02:28 PM
For a brief moment in ANH, in Mos Eisley (only in the SE version) you see a far-off shot of what appears to be a ship of the same make as Dash Rendar's "Outrider."

That doesn't mean Shadows of the Empire "happened" (it's still EU) but at least that type of ship exists at the time of the classic trilogy. Like the use of Coruscant as the capital city planet, I figure it's a nod to the EU, without actually canonizing it.

Wes Janson SMR
04-11-2002, 03:19 PM
Georgie-boy acknowledges the EU series, and he makes a full effort in keeping things straight with his "hired goons" of writers. Lucas doesn't write his stuff blindly. He gets together with a set of advisors to check the script over, and they all know most of what happens in the EU series.

In fact, the very first EU boook was published just after ANH was shown in the late 70s. And if you pick it up now (the name eludes me right now), George even has a little introduction, nodding to the expansion of his own universe. He knows, and he cares.

As far as I'm concearned, Shadows happened big-time. Everyone says that the Corellian ship in ANH SE was the Outrider. And when Shadows was released, it was a big deal. You think George would just scoff it asside and say, "Nooo... I don't think so." If he wanted to do so, he had his chance during his approval session.

I'm in the process of writing a novel trillogy, and I can definately relate to the difficulty of preventing self-contradiction. Writing isn't easy, folks. George is doing a wonderful job at what he does, even in the face of ignorant fans who scream otherwise. Plus, we can only officially scream "contradiction" when we see the other two films as his products.

I wouldn't quite say George is my inspiration, but he certainly demands respect, and he has mine. If I had the chance to sit down and get pointers from the man, that would be an opportunity I couldn't pass up.

D.L.
04-11-2002, 03:25 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan


So, if you can produce the screenshot(s)/save game files, I'd most appreciate it. When I played the game, there was a glitch, so that Kyle's saber was invisible (no blade) but you could see it of course in the cutscene.

When I played the game, there wasn't even a Kyle. Once you walked backwards on the platform you were in an empty room, and in you put away your saber and walked to the top, the game ended and you know the rest.

Creston
04-11-2002, 03:42 PM
Very interesting post. I see that it has developed into a few things, however. I'll try to offer my views on the separate issues... separately :D


1) What is Canon and what isn't?

I am doing this from memory, so don't kick me if I'm wrong, but when Heir to the Empire came out, I distinctly remember reading about it in just about every book review publication at the time, and one thing I vividly remember is that it said "The sequel to the starwars movies!" etc etc.
Then, in an interview with Timothy Zahn it was specifically said that his books had George Lucas' blessing, and had been checked by George and others from LucasArts specifically for canon and to make sure no contradictions were in it. As far as I'm concerned, Timothy Zahn himself was more careful with the Star Wars canon then George Lucas was...
If Lucas blessed these books, then logically he had to agree with what was in them, including several explanations Zahn makes regarding various items (I'll come back to this later).

Now, I will heartily agree that later on, the whole EU got a bit out of control, with evil jedi, and whole empires etc simply existing and never being mentioned (Hapes being the most stupendously pathetic mistake they made. BattleDragons that are a pound for pound match for a Star Destroyer, Hapes has thousands of these things, but the Empire and Hapes never fought or anything? The Si-Ruuk are another rather paltry example) in the movies or anything. In that aspect, they are rather losing their touch with the official Star Wars canon.

However, George Lucas himself isn't really all that keen on Canon either people. Let's have a look at episode one, shall we?

1) Lightsabers BURNING their way through a thick metal door. Lightsabers do not give off heat. Whenever Luke or Darth struck something metal, I did not see it burn. Timothy Zahn explained that lightsabers work on a near monomolecular level (when he asked to have dead stormtroopers checked for near microscopic cuts with partial cauterization of the wound). If these things can get hot enough to burn through doors, there would be far more cauterization of wounds, AND people wouldn't be able to wield them.
How the hell did Qui Gon burn through that door with his saber??

2) "The senator from Alderaan, Bail Antilles."
Who?
That wouldn't happen to be Bail ORGANA, surrogate father of Leia ORGANA, would it? WhoTF is Bail Antilles??

3) Trade Federation. Two new Confederacies in SW2. Where were they during episodes 4-6? Why was no mention ever made of them? No survivors of any of these? No tales hanging around?
Yes, I know that it's hard to do stuff like that when you haven't gotten around to making the earlier movies yet, but according to George himself, he had the ENTIRE background story of Darth Vader written before he started the original trilogy.

So please, let's not assume that George Lucas is this infallible God of Star Wars Canon & Knowledge or anything. I'm pretty sure that if George were to go up against any real dedicated fan in a contest of Star Wars knowledge, he'd lose every single time.

That is not to say that George Lucas cannot DO whatever he wishes with Star Wars. It's his Intellectual Property, and if he wishes to totally screw it up with Episode one, and now a Romance (BLERGH), that IS his right. But for purposes of Canon and such, I'm quite convinced that George is coming up with some freaky stuff that really doesn't make any sense if you compare it to the original trilogy.
Jedi's aren't allowed to love, because love leads to the Dark Side? WTF is up with that? Doesn't anybody remember the fact that it was his LOVE for his father, that led Luke to the Death Star to try and redeem Darth Vader? Some Dark Side at work there...
MidiChlorians?? I won't even go there..

As such, the whole Canon thing really doesn't make any sense anymore. While the EU does have very good canon amongst itself (guarded by Shelly Shapiro, Sue Rostoni, Lucey Autrey Wilson and others I cannot recall offhand), when you compare them to the movies not a whole lot of it makes sense. But then, when you compare the first trilogy to Episode 1, THEY don't make a whole lot of sense either.

I think Star Wars has gotten too big to be 100% Canon. George Lucas should have either :
1) Guarded the canon himself. He didn't want to, and probably didn't have time to do it.
2) Should have at least ATTEMPTED to follow existing Canon when doing episode 1. This INCLUDES EU Canon. I mean, come on, would it have been THAT much effort for the man to go back and figure out the name of the senator from Alderaan? Would it have been THAT hard to figure out another way for Qui Gon and Obi Wan to get through that blastdoor?

He didn't do either, so really, he should just stfu about Canon :D
Besides, any man who gives an hour long interview to justify a character that EVERY fan HATES with a passion it's almost holy, really needs to step back to reality.

Now, for the other part, the lightsaber color question.

First of all, the idea that MotS would be AFTER Jedi Outcast is ridiculous. Why did Kyle give up using the Force? Because of his run in with the Dark Side. When did he run in with the Dark Side except in MotS? Killing Maw was no run in with the Dark Side, his emotions got the better of him, but Luke's done several things like that and he didn't turn into a Dark Jedi overnight either. The "Evil Ending" in JK doesn't count, as it isn't considered in the storylines. (If it was, Desann would have been vaporized by Emperor Kyle in an instant :D).
Kyle turning to the Sith ways in MotS, however, now THAT'S what I'd call falling to the Dark Side enough that one would hang up his lightsaber for it... And notice that it took another brush with the Dark Side (his desire for vengeance for Jan's death) for him to embrace the Force again.

Now, as for the lightsaber.

I do seem to remember Kyle using a red lightsaber at the final battle in MotS, but I am not sure. I only finished that game a couple of times, and the last time was quite awhile back. I played it again about six months or so ago, but could never figure out anymore how to get through that asteroid thing, and got bored with it. But I think either way it doesn't really matter.
Doesn't Kyle lose his lightsaber in the final battle against Mara? I seem to recall that huge dark pit you fight over...
Anyways, even if he doesn't, I would think that if and when you decide you've had enough of the Force, you'd just fling your lightsaber away in disgust. Perhaps later he then constructed a new one, in order to start fresh, so to speak.

Now, people keep saying that after MotS, Kyle perhaps went to study at the Jedi Academy.
Now, since this is the game, thus the EU we're talking about, I don't think that that's really possible.
Luke doesn't found the Jedi Academy until, I believe, 8 years after the battle of Endor? I don't think the end of MotS would be 8 years after Endor..

So Kyle creates a new lightsaber after MotS, then decides to stop messing around with the Force, and gives it to the one Jedi in existence at that point, Luke Skywalker, and asks him to hold it for safekeeping.
The fact that Luke later is in the Jedi Academy when Kyle comes to retrieve it doesn't mean squat. It certainly doesn't mean that Kyle had to have given it to Luke while Luke was in the Academy. A spare lightsaber isn't all that much to carry around.

And who knows. The gent from LucasArts who posted around here awhile ago saying that lightsabers need maintenance and such, so Luke might have just given him a spare lightsaber...

This whole "mystical" idea of attuning yourself to your lightsaber etc, introduced by Kevin J Anderson wasn't exactly followed closely by some of the writers, and didn't Luke himself quite happily use a lightsaber not constructed by him for the first 2 movies?
(In fact, since Luke, in the EU, retrieves his first lightsaber, the one that fell down in the shaft at Bespin, then gave it to Mara, IIRC, really seems to indicate to me that a lightsaber is a lightsaber, no matter what.)
And no, I don't care what the New Jedi Order series says about Anakin re-attuning himself to his new lightsaber. That series also has drow and tentacle rods, and creatures that by all rights should rule the universe if they can draw on gravity fields that are at least TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND LIGHTYEARS away. The New Jedi Order, and the mess George Lucas is making of his own movies are enough to make any Star Wars fan weep...

Oh well, at least Natalie Portman is easy on the eyes...

Creston

Darth Bastard
04-11-2002, 03:56 PM
This is just a little remark concerning the point of Lucas saying there were only three colors for lightsabers, red for the dark side, and green and blue for the light side, with the only exception being Samuel Jacksons character having a purple one because he requested it.

Has anyone out there taken a close look at the trailer for Episode II? At the end they show several scenes from a massive battle during the Clone War. One of these scenes has a ring of Jedi fighting. Almost all of them are using either a purple or a yellow lightsaber. (There may have been a couple of green ones.)

Check it out.

DB

Zek
04-11-2002, 04:24 PM
In the beginning of MotS, Kyle has a lightsaber almost the same as Yun's, so it's definitely before JK2. No, Dark Kyle never lost his saber; you talk to him over the pit, and then he gives you the ultimatum and you have to walk off the edge behind you(if you try to join him, you fall to your death through the platform... Real funny, Kyle). You fight in the room that you teleport to at that point. He has his saber right up to the point where he's holding it at Mara when you give up, then he turns it off and we never see it again.

Keiran Halcyon
04-11-2002, 05:16 PM
In the clone war trailer we can see only green and blue sabers, one red (dooku's) and one purple (windu's) some blues look like purple and some green look like yellow but only in certain frames.


Lightsabers can cut anything, i think
It surely can desestabilyze the metals' structure making the atoms vibrate, and that heats. Remember that the lightsabers are pure energy


Bail antilles is the previous Alderaanian senator, maybe left the place since it couldn't won the title of chancellor. he was substituted by Bail organa. (i would have used another name than antilles since wedge is corellian...)

Senator/Chancellor Palpatine controls the federation, when he became Emperor he wanted to unite the trade so he erased the federation he didn't have any use for it, he had all he wanted: being emperor


About the 'jedi cannot fell love' thing i think that they are talking about the padawans, they cannot because it will distract them from his learning.
Little jedi knights have to come from somewhere- Han solo in The Crystal Star

If george lucas is not going to put more colors in the movies i'll .......... :swear:
First of all: Mace windu in Jedi Power Battles has a blue lightsaber, Adi Gallia has a crimsom lightsaber, Plo Koon has a Yellow lightsaber.
Ki-Adi-Mundi has a purple lightsaber
Leia has a crimsom lightsaber too
Callista has a yellow lightsaber (she was a jedi from the old republic

PsychoX
04-11-2002, 05:43 PM
Umm, I don't want to interrupt you in your hardcore-discussion about Kyles lighsaber went, but I have to.

Isn't it much more strange that all his super badass rocket launcher plasma blaster disruptor weapons he collected in DF and JK
disapperad? Maybe he sold some of them, but I'm sure he would at least have kept a better weapon than his ridiculous blaster rifle.

And maybe I'm wrong, I forgot nearly everything about SW movies and books after the E1 shock, but isn't there a mara jade reference in the story section of the readme? Correct me if I'm wrong

Creston
04-11-2002, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Keiran_Halcyon
Bail antilles is the previous Alderaanian senator, maybe left the place since it couldn't won the title of chancellor. he was substituted by Bail organa. (i would have used another name than antilles since wedge is corellian...)



Are you just guessing at this, or did you find this somewhere? I don't actually think that episode one is all THAT long ago, compared to episode 4 : A New Hope, so it could easily be Bail Organa. It would also be VERY coincidental if both senators were named Bail, wouldn't it?

I still think Lucas screwed up there.

As for lightsabers being able to CUT anything, no argument there. My problems with it is that it's stuck in the door, then BURNS its way through there.
Btw, if the lightsaber itself doesn't give off heat, then its effect through cutting definitely won't make metal melt. Friction energy from a cut isn't all THAT high, especially for an item that apparently doesn't need a whole lot of effort to cut through something like that.

I would have been perfectly fine with Qui Gon just cutting a large square section out of the door. But this burn crap...

Creston

Wes Janson SMR
04-11-2002, 06:06 PM
Luke didn't give Kyle a spare Lightsaber. That's just foolish. I'm pretty sure Kyle would have recognize his own 'Saber - especially if it was supposed to be a different color.

Creston had a good point. Luke's Jedi academy might not have been there during the events in MotS - all the more reason why Mara would ask Kyle for advice.

But no, I've continually read that a Jedi is stronger with a Lightsaber that he forged, compared to one forged by another Jedi. This could also work psycologically than physically, as well.

The only reason why Luke used his Dad's 'Saber is because he was still training. In ANH, he hadn't even known he had Jedi potential, much less thought about building his own Lightsaber.

He was forced to build a new one when he lost his Dad's - and even Vader said that his training was complete after inspecting his son's blade.

And I still think that the EU series is still the embodiment of Star Wars - every bit as much as the movies. Lucas blessed. That's enough in my book. Pun intended.

---EDIT---

Lightsabers cause molecules to vibrate violently in solid and liquid - a weird property of the energy blade. This causes heat. The longer you keep the 'Saber in a solid object, the hotter it gets. The blade itself doesn't give off heat, and apparently doesn't affect loose molecules in gas. Weird.

Vestril
04-11-2002, 07:33 PM
Are you just guessing at this, or did you find this somewhere? I don't actually think that episode one is all THAT long ago, compared to episode 4 : A New Hope, so it could easily be Bail Organa. It would also be VERY coincidental if both senators were named Bail, wouldn't it?

Yes, George Lucas screwed up, he forgot that the original character's name was Bail Organa, he forgot the name of a MAIN CHARACTER in his backstory, and no one bothered to ask when he changed it to Antilles, and then back to Organa. I know the man is old, but he's not senile, it would be like naming Luke 'Starkiller' in EpIV and 'Skywalker' in EpV--you would have to be grossly incompetetant to do that, and though Mr. Lucas has his downsides, he isn't gossly incompetetant.

3) Trade Federation. Two new Confederacies in SW2. Where were they during episodes 4-6? Why was no mention ever made of them? No survivors of any of these? No tales hanging around?

In the end of Episode I the Naboo end their illegal invasion and Palpatine is clearly on their side remember 'they'll lose their trade franchise' ? They probably did. As a sidenote even if they did manage to survive TPM (you never know, they might've) why would the Trade Federation even exist after the Empire went for the smackdown, and why would anyone talk about them? The way things are going Palpy's gonna get all of his enemies to kill each other, and then will come in and build a couple of Death Star's

Jedi's aren't allowed to love, because love leads to the Dark Side? WTF is up with that? Doesn't anybody remember the fact that it was his LOVE for his father, that led Luke to the Death Star to try and redeem Darth Vader? Some Dark Side at work there...

Ok, the Jedi Ban love, they get destroyed, DV finds love he gets saved. Has ity occured to you that Lucas was pointing out that had the Jedi been less rigid and more passionate they might have lasted a little longer--in the end of the movies (and we do know the end) love triumphes.

Wes Janson SMR
04-11-2002, 08:22 PM
Jedi love's a strange thing. Just look what happened with Luke and Mara in their comic book series. You know the one I'm talking about (don't want to spoil it for the non-readers).

Vestril
04-11-2002, 10:14 PM
It is a strange thing, but I'm a big fan of separating the movies and EU in my mind, so I just loooooooove the Luke/Mara thang, especially as written in Vision of the Future...holy hannah, when did I let myself get so far off topic...it's maddening how easily I slip on tangents!! sorry to anyone who is annoyed with my inability to focus--bad Ian, BAD!!! *hits self with stick*

Ushgarak
04-11-2002, 10:42 PM
I wish someone could answer my question abot Morgan appearing as a ghost...

Ok, I can make some statements I am very certain of about some of the points raised here

1. EU Canon thing. No matter what else is said, Lucasfilm's OWN canon policy states that the EU novels are not part of canon. This should not, of course, reduce anyone's enjoyment of them, but they really aren't. The only full canonical sources are the films, with a rather hazy 'semo-canon' statrus applying to the novels, screenplays and radio dramas. And GL is apparently of the opinion that it should be strictly film only, now (as he has ridden roughshod over some of the things stated in the novels of the Classic Trilogy).

George Lucas did in fact create some 'no-go'áreas for writers of EU in the early days- no talk on the work of the Sith in destroying the Republic, no talk of Anakin's mother, no talk of Obi-Wan's early life. He might have been wise to also say no word on Boba Fett's origins...

...but the point is that his attempt to maintain continuity that way failed, so later he massively restricted canonicty and just let the EU do its own thing, as it was ni longer relevant. Many people think this was not handled well, and they may well be right,. but that is how it is.

2. Bail Antillles is no error at all, of course. Entirely seperate man to Bail Organa.

3. Sabre burning through door- what is seen on screen overrides anything else, but the point is that the sabre doesn't have to emit heat to melt through the door, any more than a microwave needs heat to cook your food. But then, sabres are weird sci-fi things. Who knows how they work, eh?

The mystery is how Qui-Gon can hold his hands next to a melting door and not lose the flesh off of them...

4. The Trade Federation is alive and well by AOTC. But the Empire nationalises all business by the time of the Original Trilogy, so the Federation no longer exists then.

5. I believe the Jedi not being allowed to love thing is actually an important theme that will be explored, so best wait and see before commenting on that.

6. Hard as it may be to believe, it does indeed appear to be true that the extra 'purple' blades you see in the Clone War trailer are actually blue.


As for the unpikely appearance of Jerec and so forth, which looks increasingly unlikely in the light of this 'Only two Sith allowed' thing, we have to remember that the JK's series primary purpose is to entertain, not storytell. Some plot leeway is very mucxh expected. I mean, it's no more silly than this magical Valley that can just give you Force powers, just like that. If the Valley was in the films it would just be silly, but as part of a computer game it works well.

Zek
04-11-2002, 10:49 PM
Why shouldn't Kyle's dad appear as a ghost? Was it said anywhere that only Jedi can appear after death? Maybe only Jedi can see such ghosts?

Wes Janson SMR
04-11-2002, 11:18 PM
Wait a second. If Kyle is Force attuned, should his father be as well? Or is it something that Kyle got from his Mom's side of the family?

Vestril
04-11-2002, 11:51 PM
Zek makes an interesting point, but perhaps Rahn taught Morgan how to keep his identity in the Force after death, it has been speculated that the ability to re-appear as a spirit after death is a skill that some Jedi know, and others don't, perhaps he learned that skill even though he never became a full on Jedi, and actually I don't believe that Force use is a genetic thing, or else the Jedi ban on love might be a little looser *grin*

Though Morgan Katarn could use the Force, he just chose not to.

Beagle
04-12-2002, 01:28 AM
So besides the bail thing what where the other times that Lucas contradicted himself? The only thing I can think off is Han freezing in one outfit and thawing out in another.:D look closely.

Vestril
04-12-2002, 03:23 AM
That and the whole lack of shackles and hand position....I somehow doubt that when he freezes he would have his hands like that...lol

Ben_Walker
04-12-2002, 04:48 AM
This is what I came up with from the first page. Despite the fact I haven't play MotS.


Timeline: 1/ Dark Forces. 2/ Jedi Knight. 3/ Mysteries of the Sith. 4:/ Jedi Outcast.

Kyle's lightsaber: In MotS I think Kyle destroyed his lightsaber while having a taste of the dark side ij the Sith temple and found a red lightsaber. When Mara saved him and Kyle got rid of his red lightsaber.

Maybe Lucasarts should've done this with the lightsaber: They should've got a level JO where your in the Jedi Academy, you have to gather parts for a lightsaber and then in a cutscene Kyle makes the weapon. But becasue that never happened, I say Kyle made a blue lightsaber between MotS and JO and then gave up the Jedi way.

Desann mention at SW.com: My bet is that the guys at SW.com were to lazy to play the game and they just got his name and added it in Kyle's profile.

Lightsabers and water mixed: It said in the last book of Young Jedi Knights that if a lightsaber was made decent enough it would be fine underwater and I think it was the swamp muck that messed up Obi-Wan's lightsaber in ep 1.

Wes Janson SMR
04-12-2002, 05:04 AM
You know, that says something about Kyle's craftsmanship - which explains a lot. ;-)

SkyW
04-12-2002, 06:22 AM
I haven't read all of your replys, so forgive me if this has been said already
From what I have read around the net, MotS pretty neatly explains Mara's absence in Dark Empire series (why would she not be around with reborn Emperor and all), which happens to take place before the Jedi Academy series. So logically, MotS happens before JO, because the academy doesn't exist during MotS.
As for Mara being Kyle's apprentice, I don't buy it. She declared to Luke how she doesn't want the responsibilities of a Jedi, nor does she want to give the trading business. So she just happens to meet Kyle and they're just sparring for practise. Yes, that must be it...

Wes Janson SMR
04-12-2002, 06:25 AM
Yay! Someone who agrees with me!!

Two hardened folks who just happen to have attuned Force abilities. Kyle's been dealing with it for a while, so it makes sense for Mara to ask him for some tips while they were stuck on the base together.

SkyW
04-12-2002, 06:53 AM
Nice to have supporters :)
Though I just remembered, it says something like "Mara Jade continues to impress me blaa blaa" when loading the first level, but that doesn't exactly mean she is his apprentice, imo

simonknight
04-12-2002, 09:07 AM
In my humble opinion,I believe that Lucasfilms and a little to say about the saber colors. I read in a previous post that the licensing is really tight on lightsaber color in single player games, and what I think is that Lucasfilm wanted the saber to be blue because Obi Wan's is blue, and does everyone remember what comes out in just one month? So people who arent into FPS games or games at all will see the big blue lightsaber outside of stores in malls or in electronics secetions in department stores and *boom* advertising that is better then free because stores are paying you money to be able to promote that they have the game and thus, promoting your movie that come out in a month. The timing is just way too coincidental.
:duel: <----I love this.

Creston
04-12-2002, 11:01 AM
That might actually very well be, simonknight. It would make very good sense for them to do so. Especially since Star Trek 10 is coming out sometime this summer season as well, and there are a truckload of star trek games in the stores, it could very well be that LucasArts decided a little extra marketing never hurt (even though the Star Trek movie will get nowhere near the numbers the 2nd star wars movie will).

Then again, I actually wonder just how many people will go see the second star wars. The numbers for episode one weren't really all that high, after all (compared to the hype of how it was going to shatter Titanic's box office record), and I know a lot of people who were really turned off by it.
Maybe that's why George Lucas made this into a "romance". It wouldn't surprise me if Anakin and Amidala were standing with their arms spread on the bow of a Dreadnaught cruiser at some point... He's hoping to get the lovesick audience of Titanic to come see his movie..

As for Bail Antilles / Bail Organa, sorry, but I don't buy it. Leia's father had been a member of the old Republic Senate and had been in that service for a long time in his life, Leia's memories of him show him in that position always. The timing just doesn't work out for it to be two different people. He just screwed up. :D

Creston

Vestril
04-12-2002, 11:38 AM
Ok Creston...as for George Lucas 'turning it into' a love story, if you read the pre-Ep 1 literature you'd know that Ep2 was always going to be a love story. And Ep 1 didn't do that well?... In what universe? I mean, Titanic had a major advantage over Ep 1, teenage girls and their fathers wallets *grin* I think being one of the top 10 highest grossing films of all time shows that maybe a few people will see the next one...especially since this one looks supremely awesome (even if the CG/live integration looks a lil rough).


Leia's father had been a member of the old Republic Senate and had been in that service for a long time in his life, Leia's memories of him show him in that position always.

What does that have to do with someone else from the same planet having the same first name? BIIIIIIIG coincidence there... Also let's examine some timing, Leia would have been adopted 14 or so years after Ep 1 occured, and if Bail was around the average he would be, say, 30 when that happened. Was he in the senate at 16, or even in his early/mid 20's if he was a little older? Unlikely since Leia was a shockingly young senator at 18... So really, this could easily be a big coincidence, or maybe Bail isn't actually his first name, but an Alderaanian title. Who really knows, but the likelyhood of that is less than the rather minimal likelyhood of Lucas screwing up on a major characters name...

(I know, I should just leave it alone, but I'm the dumbass who picks at scabs...)

D.L.
04-12-2002, 12:39 PM
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR


In fact, the very first EU boook was published just after ANH was shown in the late 70s. And if you pick it up now (the name eludes me right now), George even has a little introduction, nodding to the expansion of his own universe. He knows, and he cares.



Splinter of the Minds Eye by Alan Dean Foster.

This is in no way accurate to the films.

Vader gets his arm hacked off by Luke in this and Vader also gets his ass handed to him on a plate. Leia also dies and is resurrected by Luke using the Force and some bull**** mythical stone, the Kaliburr Crystal. It's extremely far fetched.

Creston
04-12-2002, 02:40 PM
Top ten grossing films of all time? Episode One? I think you're mistaking it with the the original Star Wars here...

My hacking on the "love story" thing is merely to show my disagreement with where Lucas is taking things. FFS, look at the first trilogy. It's full of excitement, drama, **** that blows up, lightsaber battles, humor, massive battles etc.

Then look at episode 1.
It's about Qui Gon walking around in a desert, talking to a twerp of a kid.
The pod race was nice, and the battles at the end are alright (the lightsaber battle was spectacular). In WHAT way does it even COMPARE to the original trilogy?

But ok, it's the first episode, right? George Lucas did the first three, he'll get back on track for the new movie too. And now we see a trailer of Anakin and Amidala in a field of flowers, all cuddly.. Ahhh how sweet.

:swear: I want more of that spectacular **** we had in the first trilogy!!!!!! :D

If people don't agree, fair enough. I am only posting my own opinions here, there is nowhere where I say that my word is law. It's George Lucas' intellectual property, he can do whatever he wants with it. In my opinion, however, he's turning Star Wars into a bloody damn fiasco. And as a longtime fan of the whole setting, that just pisses me off. Sue me.

As for Bail Antilles and Bail Organa *shrug*. You stick by your story, I'll stick by mine. Bail was old when they nuked Alderaan, and had been in the senate for most of his adult life. I say it's an error on his part, you say it's not. Apples and peaches :)

Creston

Keiran Halcyon
04-12-2002, 02:49 PM
Originally posted by D.L.


Vader gets his arm hacked off by Luke in this and Vader also gets his ass handed to him on a plate. Leia also dies and is resurrected by Luke using the Force and some bull**** mythical stone, the Kaliburr Crystal. It's extremely far fetched.

You forgot that Leia touches the crystal and do not senses anything, and the woman tell her 'of course you can't, you do not have the FORCE' :rolleyes: well, it can be that she was not initiated....


Well Bail Organa Is a different person from Bail Antilles. Bail is a name, and possibly a common name in Alderaan. In EpII to EpIV there are 20 years so Bail can be the senator for these. And Padme and Jar-Jar are TWO senators from Nabo, so Alderaan can have to senators too... And he is The KING of Alderaan, so he could have more important affairs in his planet during EpII or be too young.

Qui-Gon may not burnt his hands because he protected himself with the force?

Morgan Katarn HAS the Force as i said in another topic, he didn't trined because he (or his parents) may be affraid of the Emperor. Similar to Corran Horn's story.


Han solo has the same outfit in ROJ, just more decolored (because of the freeze, i suppose)

Luke's accademy was not insight during MOTS, it is JUST AFTER The last command
Kyle has a red lightsaber during game (not in the movies, wich is orange) because the cog file that is called Darkkyle and darkmara have both red lightsabers


I'm sure( i hope) the lOVE-JEDI thing is for the PADAWANS

Zek
04-12-2002, 02:59 PM
Creston, what about Han and Leia in the original trilogy?

Don't judge Episode 2 before it comes out. From what I've heard, there's a hell of a lot more battle scenes in this one than in Episode 1, so don't say Lucas is ruining the series after seeing a trailer or two.

Kurgan
04-12-2002, 03:05 PM
SW Canon is:

The official films, the screenplays of those films, the official novelisations of those films, and the radio dramas IN THAT ORDER.

How does it work?

Basically you take those sources as canon, and everything else, where it contradicts those, is simply out of continuity with the canon.

If something in the radio dramas isn't mentioned in the films, but doesn't contradict them, it's fair game, etc with the others.

What is the EU? (Expanded Universe)

All official Star Wars material that's not canon. (So that includes all the comics, games, other novels, toys, technical manuals, cartoons, etc).

What is official?

To use the Star Wars names and likenesses, they need to be liscensed through GL and his companies at LucasFilm.

What is "unofficial"?

Stuff that people just made up, non-commercial products like fan-films and fan-fiction on the internet... custom built action figures, that sort of thing.


Canon is simply the continuity that George Lucas is following when making the films. In other words, you can't use the EU as a reliable guide to predict what will happen in the films, and you can't say the films are wrong if they contradict the EU. However, there have been efforts by various authors to "agree with each other" to maintain some sort of continuity within the EU, however they don't have to do that.

Think about Star Trek, or Highlander... very little effort is made to maintain strict continuity. It's up to the franchise.

The whole issue came up because we were trying to argue whether the Dark Forces games had to be just like the movies (or some people's interpretation of what the movies are like). I argued that it's part of the EU, so all bets are off, they can do whatever they want.

Remember: yes, to get the Star Wars logo, you need to be officially liscensed, but that doesn't make it "canon."

Vestril
04-12-2002, 04:04 PM
Top ten grossing films of all time? Episode One? I think you're mistaking it with the the original Star Wars here...
Uh...Creston, take a look at this...


1. $601 Titanic 1997
2. $461 Star Wars 1977
3. $431 Star Wars: The Phantom Menace 1999
4. $431 * E.T. 1982
5. $357 Jurassic Park 1993
6. $330 Forrest Gump 1994
7. $317 * Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone 2001
8. $313 The Lion King 1994
9. $307 Return of the Jedi 1983
10. $306 Independence Day 1996

So...research before you post...though granted this is just one source

But ok, it's the first episode, right? George Lucas did the first three, he'll get back on track for the new movie too. And now we see a trailer of Anakin and Amidala in a field of flowers, all cuddly.. Ahhh how sweet.
I want more of that spectacular **** we had in the first trilogy!!!!!!

Another lack of research issue, did you miss the trailers that showed the AWESOME looking battle sequences? Correct me if I'm wrong but there may've been a wee bit of greasy handed cuddling in ESB...if he wants to jump it up to the next level, well curse him for not making the EXACT same three movies again...

ReaperFett
04-12-2002, 06:47 PM
It's only not canon if it's marked with infinities :)

Wes Janson SMR
04-12-2002, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by D.L.


Splinter of the Minds Eye by Alan Dean Foster.

This is in no way accurate to the films.

Vader gets his arm hacked off by Luke in this and Vader also gets his ass handed to him on a plate. Leia also dies and is resurrected by Luke using the Force and some bull**** mythical stone, the Kaliburr Crystal. It's extremely far fetched.

I never read the damned book. I read the introduction, but not the book.

And to be honest, I think George didn't even like it when it was written. '-)

ReaperFett
04-12-2002, 07:31 PM
Splinter of the Minds eye is what Lucas wrote for if ANH flopped. SOTME would be the TV sequel. Little fact for y'all :)

Reb Starblazer
04-12-2002, 08:26 PM
Possible slight spoiler here

Just a little note, Bail Organa WILL be in Episode 2. He will make a brief appearance, probably just a small scene, but he will have a larger role in Episode 3. His official title is "Viceroy and First Chairman of Alderaan"

This means that there may be also be a senator named Bail Antilles who represents alderaan in the senate. Amdiala was queen of the Naboo, but she didn't represent them in the senate, that was Palpatine's (shudder) job. See where I'm going with this? Leia was a princess, her father was a king, so it makes sense that he wouldn't be in the senate. Besides where does it say that Bail Organa was a senator? If I'm wrong about this, a little proof, and I'll detract my statement.

PS. Just because the guys name is Bail Antilles doesn't mean it's the same guy. I know plenty of people with the same name. Besides, who's to say he wasn't named after Alderaan's benovolent king? :) Just a thought.

Wes Janson SMR
04-12-2002, 10:02 PM
Bingo.

Jan also appears to be a unisex name. There's Jan Ors, and Jan Dodonna (bearded dude who gave the Death Star briefing in ANH.

Ushgarak
04-13-2002, 12:02 AM
About Infinties- that means it is not relevant to EU canon. Infinities is a load of 'What if?' scenarios for fun. They are blatantly out of even the Expanded Universe plotlines. It does not follow that everything that is not Infinities is therefore canonical in relationship to the films, because it is not.

May I make a slight correction, Kurgan? Whilst the thrust of what you say is correct, it is not LITERALLY true that EU means 'everything that is not canon' The literal defintion of EU is any Star Wars work not directly based on a GL story. And it so happens that these have all been called non-canon- but that's only because they chose to not make it so. EU doesn't actually MEAN non-canon, that's just how it is.

The most important result of that is that the parts of the novels that are blatantly wrong (e.g. Owen Lars being Obi-Wan's brother) are not canon. But they are not EU either. The two don't HAVE to go together.

Anyway... about Morgan.

1. In the films, ONLY a very few select Jedi do the ghost thing. It is not a general ability, and we have good reason to think that only Yoda, Anakin and Obi-Wan do it. That's also why Qui-Gon's body did not disappear- that's reserved for the ghost trick users.

2. If we assume that the Valley of the Jedi is an EU exception of this rule, it STILL doesn't mean that Morgan should be a ghost there; it should still have been Rahn. Seeing Morgan strikes me as rather weird.

We have no idea whether the Force can be passed as a result of genetics (the Skywalkers hardly being a typical example), but I think we can be mostly sure that Morgan was no Force adept.

X_Fighter
04-13-2002, 10:22 AM
Morgan should not be a ghost remember maw said that he stuck his head on a pike for everyone to see
plus he did not disappear or have any kind of jedi powers he had a jedi friend who was pathetic at defending against a blast of the force and just died

Keiran Halcyon
04-13-2002, 11:38 AM
Bail Organa Appears in EPII a lot (i think) we can see him alot in the trailers.

Obi-Wan was never officially Owen's brother, i remember it was only Luke's supposition.

Ushgarak
04-13-2002, 11:40 AM
No it wasn't.

Obi-Wan told Luke that Owen was his brother in the ROTJ novelisation and it passed into fan lore.

That segment of the ROTJ novel is now totally irrelevant.

Creston
04-13-2002, 01:53 PM
Originally posted by Zek
Creston, what about Han and Leia in the original trilogy?

Don't judge Episode 2 before it comes out. From what I've heard, there's a hell of a lot more battle scenes in this one than in Episode 1, so don't say Lucas is ruining the series after seeing a trailer or two. \

What about them? They sure didn't get all mushy like that vomit inducing field of flowers scene in the Ep 2 trailer.. (and before anyone says that I hate romance or anything, I am happily engaged and will get married in 6 weeks, AND I happen to like romantic movies. I just don't feel it's all that... appropriate? in a Star Wars movie). I mean, if there is any other reason for it other than trying to get young girls to come see the movie, someone please tell me. Here's a nice sarcastic snippet I picked from a site of top ten movies, in regards to Titanic's phenomenal success :

"It wasn't entirely the teenage girls going to the movie eleven times each that brought in the big bucks (they probably made up a mere 80% of the audience)."

So now we know what George wants.. :rolleyes:

And I'm not saying Lucas is ruining the series just after seeing Ep2's trailer, I'm saying he's ruining it after seeing Episode one, after seeing the portents for episode 2, AND after reading the first five episodes of the New Jedi Order (although, presumably, that's not really George's division).
Hey, believe me, I'll still go see Ep 2. I am still a huge star wars fan, otherwise I wouldn't even take so much time to write and complain about it. I've run a star wars RPG, and I've even written part of a novel for the star wars universe (with some hopes of getting it published even, until not five months later Timothy Zahn's Vision of the Future came out, declaring any and all books in the 'old' New Republic vs Empire setting finished.)
I LOVE Star Wars. So far I'm just horribly disappointed with what they are doing to it.
But, we'll see after may 16th. Who knows, maybe George has finally woken up and realised that floppy eared CGI imbeciles are NOT what we want to see.

Now, the books had to do SOMETHING in order to remain interesting, and an extragalaxial threat was probably the only sensible remaining thing to do. The big mistake they made was to have some guy with NO sense of sci fi whatsoever to write the initial book.
And sorry, but this whole "the heroes were too invincible, we NEEDED to show they could die too" crap is just that. CRAP.
If I want to see or read about people dying, I'll turn to the news thank you. If I read a book, I want to be entertained, and I DON'T want to see a favorite character die every two novels. (Exactly who is it that dies now, in Star by Star? Luke? Han? Hell, let's kill all of them off. We're screwing the whole universe up anyways, let's totally nuke all of them.) BAH :mad:

:)

Creston

PS No offense intended to anyone (except maybe George Lucas ;) ).


PPS : Vestril. That list does in fact surprise me, because I haven't seen it ranked that high yet. The lists that I saw, admittedly well over a year ago, when Ep one was removed from theaters pretty much everywhere did not have it ranked in the top ten, hence my question if you were confusing it.
Does this list take into account DVD and video sales?
Also, I notice that Titanic is at the top with 600 some million. Most lists I have seen, and pretty much every discussion on Titanic's phenomenal success place it well over a billion dollars, so I'm not sure how accurate ANY list is, actually. (Edited : I just looked this up, and it turns out the 600 million is US sales only. Worldwide, Titanic has raked in three times that, and it seems episode one is well up there with 900 million.)
But I will admit that that is more than I had thought episode one had grossed. My mistake, and apologies :)

princessliar
04-13-2002, 03:02 PM
Aha, finally something I can make an intelligent comment on! I think we can be mostly sure that Morgan was no Force adept They are pretty hard to come by as they are out of print, but there was a trio of Dark Forces graphic novels by William C. Dietz published, incorporating the plots of Dark Forces and Jedi Knight. These tell us that Morgan was Force sensitive, but that he decided he was too weak to properly wield its power after once, when he was a boy, pushing a bully off balance and accidentally sending him falling to his death. Morgan discovered the Valley of the Jedi and learned of the prophecy - "A knight will come, a battle will be fought and the spirits be set free" or something like that. Morgan knew he couldn't fulfill the prophecy and, feeling the sting of his failure, passed on the co-ordinates of the valley to Rahn.

So although Morgan was Force sensitive, he refused the Force and certainly never attained a level of control comparable to Yoda or Obi Wan, so it still remains a mystery as to why he appeared as a ghost. :confused:

Wes Janson SMR
04-13-2002, 04:03 PM
Like father like son.

Kurgan
04-13-2002, 06:31 PM
Splinter of the Mind's Eye is EU, and "farfetchd" is a relative term...
Compared to the rest of the EU it isn't bad. Consider the ideas
are from Lucas (before ESB and ROTJ were set in stone with the films) it's actually pretty enterataining.

All EU is the same, that includes SOTE and SOTME... it's non-canon, but it's official.

As to Leia being "resurrected"I think I missed that. I picked up my copy and it had Leia being healed, but she wasn't dead. The Crystal is just a "chunk of rock" but the force can be focused through it to do stuff beyond what a normal force user can do.

Recall that JK used this idea with the force boosts and surges. Heck, the Dark Surge in JK is what I pictured the Kaiburr Crystal to look like. JK2 opted to go with holocrons instead (instant learning? Since the holocrons are basically just like technical books/training videos for Jedi).

I'm on a crappy computer here, so I apologize if I can't answer everyone, it's tough enough just to post this. ; P

My comments on canon still stand. All Star Wars stories are based on stories by George Lucas, since they are based on "characters and situations by George Lucas."

The Films are first, then the rest (screenplays of the films, novelisations of the films, and radio dramas of the films). Thus SOTME would fall into the definition of 'non canon' and expanded universe, as would SOTE. Now I guess I'd have to go to LucasFilm to get a better clarification, but in short.. no Star Wars novel is "canon" except for the novel versions of Star Wars (from the Adventures of Luke Skywalker, aka A New Hope), The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi, and The Phantom Menace (and the future book versions of Attack of the Clones and Episode III).


Here's another take on Canon.. read and see what you think:
http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Misc/Canon.html

Coran
04-13-2002, 09:50 PM
In Mots Kyle's saber in the cutscenes is orange, but during play when your dueling him it is red so I guess thats how some people got confused...

I think EU is credible, and it adds to the Star Wars Universe but Lucas did let it get way out of hand. He should have been more careful of what he approved because some of the books are such crap that they cheapened Star Wars as a whole. (at least for me)

Timothy Zahn's books rocked, as did Shadows of the Empire and most of Stackpole's were excellent too.

Kevin J. Anderson is a horrible author.

Someone said that all these dark jedi popping up out of nowhere was cheesy and that it did not fit with the movies but that can be explained. In Heir to the Empire we found out that when Yoda said to Luke that he was the last of the jedi he only meant that Luke was the last good jedi, he did not mean there were no other force-wielders other than he, Vader, and the Emperor. Yoda did not consider dark jedi as jedi at all otherwise he would have mentioned C'boath. Plus the Emperor and Vader did have some dark jedi left over who were used to help extinquish the Old Republic Jedi Order including High Inquisitor Tremayne and others who were not found and killed by the Luke and the New Jedi Order.

Ushgarak
04-13-2002, 11:08 PM
Well, obviously when I said novels, I only meant the novels of the films...

But Lucasfilm describe the EU as all original stories set in the SW universe, as opposed to adaptations of GL's stories.

Wes Janson SMR
04-13-2002, 11:17 PM
Bad books.

- Truce at Bakura
- Children of the Jedi
- The New Rebellion
- Darksaber

I started from Shadows of the Empire (my favorite), and now I'm at the Corellian Trillogy. Those are the books that I disliked the most [the ones stated above]. The only cool factor in Darksaber was that Wedge had a bigger role than he did in other EU novels (excluding the X-Wing Series of course...)

Can't wait until I get to the New Jedi Order Series. I'm just not sure if I'll go ahead and read the Young Jedi Knights Series. People are telling me that it's weak, but I'm still interest to find out just what the Solo kids are all about.

But back to authors.... It seems like the female authors of Star Wars don't cut it. With the exception of Crystal Star and Planet of Twilight. They were okay.

Any comments on the Young Jedi Knights Series?

Silver
04-13-2002, 11:45 PM
Don't bother reading the Young Jedi Knight series. It's horribly stupid: full of absurd situations, bad jokes, and the general drivel that comes from KJA.

Vestril
04-14-2002, 12:49 AM
PPS : Vestril. That list does in fact surprise me, because I haven't seen it ranked that high yet. The lists that I saw, admittedly well over a year ago, when Ep one was removed from theaters pretty much everywhere did not have it ranked in the top ten, hence my question if you were confusing it.

I just wanted to say that it's nice to know that I can disagree with someone without getting flamed for it, you make some really good points and I know that the list I looked at was US grosses only, I was just looking for a quick reference and to show that EpI was at least in the top 10 (I imagine US grosses accurately reflect worldwide states with at least a 7 slot tolerance lol)

But, we'll see after may 16th. Who knows, maybe George has finally woken up and realised that floppy eared CGI imbeciles are NOT what we want to see.
Lol, you know...this is a good way to get flamed, but I never had a problem with Jar Jar, I didn't think he was amazing, but I never really understood why people were so annoyed with him...he was a good way of showing what they can do with the technology...

Lasty even if Episode II and Episode III are utter crap, you'll always have the original series, and you can (with practice lol) shut the parts you don't like out. Or you can open your mind and try not to think about the comercial aspects and just appreciate what you can. I just think that if you give it a chance you can enjoy it. I think a lot of people had expectations for the movie, and it didn't meet them and therefore they decided that it was bad, without even trying to enjoy it just as a movie. I don't know if you are one of those people, and I don't mean to be rude, or disrespectful.

princessliar
04-14-2002, 12:35 PM
Morgan should not be a ghost remember maw said that he stuck his head on a pike for everyone to see. plus he did not disappear or have any kind of jedi powers he had a jedi friend who was pathetic at defending against a blast of the force and just died As I mentioned before, although Morgan was Force sensitive I agree that it doesn't make sense for him to become a ghost and no, he certainly didn't disappear after he died (the pictures in the first graphic novel make that abundantly clear).

Rahn, however, wasn't weak. He was on a ship faced with seven dark jedi who had just murdered several of his friends in cold blood, so he didn't really stand a chance. That didn't stop him trying though. He pulled Yun's lightsaber off him, severed a tendon in Boc's ankle and cut Maw's legs off. Not bad for an "old man", and after all, is was said that Jerec's powers "rivalled Vader's".

Creston
04-14-2002, 12:36 PM
Vestril,

Well, to be honest, I was one of the people who before episode one said that it could NEVER be as good as the original trilogy. Simply because expectations were too high, and Star Wars has been with us (ie, the fans) for so long, that any attempt at creating another Star Wars story was doomed to never get to the same heights as the original trilogy.
Combine that with the EU, which as a whole has been of a pretty high standard, and I knew Episode one would not be as good, so I set my standards lower, so as not to be too disappointed.
I also knew that it wouldn't be fair to compare episode one (one movie of the three) to the WHOLE original trilogy.

But to give an example, I have probably watched the original trilogy a few hundred times (and HEARD it a few hundred more, I would usually just turn it on so it played in the background while I played the ultima series for example), I've only seen episode one four times (and I DO have the video..).

I just felt.. I don't know, that it was boring. The parts where they land on Tatooine and spend ages trying to get that part for their ship is SO mind numbing and yawn inducing that it ruins the whole movie for me. The fact that Jake Lloyd has to be the WORST child actor ever seen on the big screen doesn't help matters any. Jar Jar Binks and his idiotic things on screen were just an insult to anyone above six years of age.

But, I was prepared to wait for episode 2, and to see what happenes. Imagine my shock and horror when I heard that it was going to be primarily a romance (urgh), and I saw the "forbidden love" trailer, which featured almost nothing except Portman and Hayden something giving each other calf eyed looks... Grrrr..

To be fair though, after reading a lot of the posts here, I realised I had missed some trailers, so I downloaded them yesterday, and watched them, and I must say I do look forward to ep 2 with a lot more anticipation now :)

And you're not rude or disrespectful at all. I'm glad people on this forum can have civilized discussions on Star Wars (i'm in another discussion about the New Jedi Order in another threat) without it turning into a "J00 Suxx0r L@m3R!" flame thread within two posts.

Cheers

Creston

Wes Janson SMR
04-14-2002, 08:07 PM
People need to realize that trillogies work in systems. The first story is usually an introduction to the universe - which is what Episode I was. It introduced all the primary characters, and put them in a situation that moves the plot along for Episode II.

Episode II will be a lot more interesting, because we'll spend less time being "introduced" to people (we already know who the main cast is), and more time moving about the general plot. That means more action, and room for the romance to bloom.

And honestly, I'm glad so many people have low expectations for Episode II. I know it's going to be a lot better than EPI - one that will rival the interests that the original trillogy induced. It will blow people out of their seats, and send them right back to the ticket booth wanting to see it again, and again, and again.

Think about this: how do you see Episode IV in the original trillogy? It's also essentially, an introduction. By the time Episode V adn VI came out, we already knew who the cast was, and we moved along pretty briskly - getting into more trouble and more action. By comparison, A New Hope was a little dry, boreing, and light-hearted compared to the latter two movies (akin to EPI).

People will be surprised by Episode II, and will be much higher on the public's acclaim. Episode III will be the big score in the series. Lucas will need to make it live up to fan expectations. And personally, I can't wait to see what happens to the Jedi Council. There's one comment from Sam Jackson that I'll never forget:

"Well...Supposedly, all the Jedi shoud be wiped out in the third film. I told George that if he does kill me off, I don't want to go out like some punk."

Not even Jackson knows what'll happen, but the man knows what he wants. '-)

Just remember than no new Star Wars media will ever have the same impact it did during the premier of the original trillogy. It's grown too big for that. But it doesn't mean that the new movies will be "poorer" by comparison.

EPII will rock the house, and send people flopping arse-over-tit to see it again.

Vestril
04-15-2002, 12:58 AM
I just felt.. I don't know, that it was boring. The parts where they land on Tatooine and spend ages trying to get that part for their ship is SO mind numbing and yawn inducing that it ruins the whole movie for me. The fact that Jake Lloyd has to be the WORST child actor ever seen on the big screen doesn't help matters any. Jar Jar Binks and his idiotic things on screen were just an insult to anyone above six years of age.

I agree with most of what you say there, especially the fact that it was very boring through the middle, though I never had a problem with Jar Jar. The thing is that I agree with Wes, I always thought Episode 4 kind of lagged through the middle and I just accepted it... Jake Llyod wasn't THAT bad (ok...maybe he was =P)

Oh, and NJO RULES BABY!!!!! Lol, jk, but I do enjoy the series...

Zek
04-15-2002, 01:53 AM
As for disappearing in order to become a ghost, as far as I can remember Vader/Anakin didn't disappear after Luke took his helmet off, and he still appeared briefly as a ghost at the end. It's not really our place to say that Morgan couldn't possibly appear as a ghost since the subject isn't mentioned at all in the movies. It's not like they're actually creating another embodiment(sp?) for themselves; if I recall correctly, they only appear to one person, so they might just be telepathically sending thoughts from beyond the grave or something. Nowhere is it mentioned that this is a Jedi-only skill, though maybe only Jedi can perceive it. It's also possible that Raven thought of this, and decided that Morgan is, in fact, force sensitive.

Wes Janson SMR
04-15-2002, 02:15 AM
Not to mention that Kyle saw his pops at the Vally of the Jedi. Perhapse the high concentration of the Force had some influence.

ChrisTheS
04-15-2002, 02:47 AM
The location a Jedi ghost can appear seems to be largely tied to an emotional locus, either a person or a place. In Morgan's case, both situations apply; Kyle and Ruusan; as the guardian of the secret of the Valley, he would have a high emotional tie to it, and thus his presence there is not to be wondered at.

And with regard to the presence of Jerec... a great deal of Jerec's history is expounded in the SWd20 Dark Side Sourcebook, in which it is stated that he is a member of the Imperial Inquisition (turned to the Dark Side by the High Inquistor Tremayne) and tasked with retrieving lost Jedi and Sith artifacts for the Emperor. Nowhere, in JK or the DSS, is it claimed that Jerec is one of the Sith; he is referred to as a Dark Jedi, and that's that. And since the Inquisition itself is canon, there is no contradiction to the canon.

Creston
04-15-2002, 09:47 AM
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR
People need to realize that trillogies work in systems. The first story is usually an introduction to the universe - which is what Episode I was. It introduced all the primary characters, and put them in a situation that moves the plot along for Episode II.

Think about this: how do you see Episode IV in the original trillogy? It's also essentially, an introduction. By the time Episode V adn VI came out, we already knew who the cast was, and we moved along pretty briskly - getting into more trouble and more action. By comparison, A New Hope was a little dry, boreing, and light-hearted compared to the latter two movies (akin to EPI).




The funny thing with Episode 1 was, that apart from Qui Gon and Amidala, really nobody needed to be introduced. We KNOW who Obi - Wan is, we KNOW who Anakin Skywalker is, we KNOW the whole Universe, probably better than George himself does :D, so I failed the see the need for all that yawning stuff.

And yes, I know what you mean with Ep4 in the original trilogy, but it STILL had some pretty spectacular stuff. Going into the death star, blowing it up, mos eisley, etc.
The thing with Ep4 was, George had NO idea if he was going to be able to make the trilogy, so it had to be catchy as a stand alone movie. He could hardly make a boring introduction movie that wouldn't get people to the theaters, because then he'd never be able to make the other two movies that he had just done the introduction for. He HAD to blow people away straight with Ep4. The fact that he then proceeded to blow everyone away AGAIN with Empire and Jedi was mere tribute to the man's movie making skills.

But with Ep 1, he KNEW he would make the whole trilogy, so it seems as if he forgot to make episode 1 at least a bit interesting. It's as if he figured "well, I can do a long drawn out boring intro, because the next two movies are secure anyways, so I'll leave everything for those two."
He redeems it a little in the end, with a spectacular lightsaber combat, but the rest of the movie is quite frankly just dull dull dull...

Creston

RenScotson
04-15-2002, 01:13 PM
Hmm, this is sort of an interesting topic bout the lightsabers but from what I know it goes a little something like this...

The Green Lightsaber was Morgan Katarn's. As we know that was destroyed by Boc.

The Yellow Lightsaber was obtained from the fallen Yun. I imagine, after the defeat of Jerec, Yun was burned or buried with his lightsaber as most Jedi are (even Sith are). Although Yun was a dark jedi, he died just like Vader, on the light side I believe. *shrugs* Died for a good purpose thats for sure.

The Orange Saber is Mysteries of the Sith he probably crafted, that being his first personal saber... but from what I can tell that never happened. Mara Jade recieved futher training by Luke, how they sort of became romantically involved later on. But then I haven't read very much of the books. And if I'm not mistakened, he had a Red Saber at the end where Mara and Kyle sort of dueled... if I'm correct, he probably replaced the lightsaber crystal with a red, and after that destroyed it.

And from what I know, Adegan, Arthusian, or Ilium Lightsaber Crystals, don't simply die like a battery heh, although the batteries do need to be replaced like every year... would suck to have that die on you during the heat of a duel. The only purpose they have is refracting light into the lightsaber beam. A lightsaber from what I know is heatless, just burns into anything it touches *shrugs* What the description said in the RPG Core Rulebook heh.

The blue he probably crafted while in the Jedi Academy.


*SPOILERS AHEAD* (sorry don't know the thing to make it white colored yet, just started today :p )

I think Jedi Knight 2 really ends the series pretty well, if it is indeed the end... I wouldn't mind him finding the nasty Vuuzhun Vong. During all that madness, where in hell is Kyle? Hopefully we'll get some answers, cause I think because he is a light sider, but with some Dark Abilities (probably looses those later on but he could be strong enough to use both, like Mara Jade could)

I don't think Desann had nearly the power of Jerec, but it was awesome when I kicked his ass at the end... JK2 sort of ties into Dark Forces, I noticed. When you get to the suits of the Shadowtroopers, he's like, "Ah crap, not black armor again" and I think that hints at the Dark Trooper. Cortosis, having the ability to resist lightsabers, probably resists lasers pretty damn good too.


Think thats all I got to say for the moment. Hope I answered some question, hope someone straightens it out.

RenScotson
04-15-2002, 01:17 PM
Ack, sorry for probably getting off topic... I only saw the one page. My bad :(

Kurgan
04-15-2002, 03:27 PM
Np. ; )

We'll get back on topic, discussing "what is canon" is important in that it relates to DF series. If the only "canon" lightsaber colors are red, blue, and green for sabers, then MotS is in error, as is JK however I think it's been shown that this is irrelevant in that all of the DF series is "EU" and in the EU, as we know, there are many other saber colors besides these three.

Episode 2 discussion I'd like to avoid, however, it may touch on the issue of "sabers not working in water" which was what really bothered me in JK2 (since it was out of continuity with JK/MotS).

PS: Here's a nice site discussing sabers (note: it is NOT up to date as far as the new stuff from Attack of the Clones.. though some of it is hinted at):

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm

In order to conceal spoilers, do this, use the
[ spoiler ] and [ /spoiler ] tags (no spaces within the brackets).

Wes Janson SMR
04-15-2002, 06:31 PM
Originally posted by Creston




The funny thing with Episode 1 was, that apart from Qui Gon and Amidala, really nobody needed to be introduced. We KNOW who Obi - Wan is, we KNOW who Anakin Skywalker is, we KNOW the whole Universe, probably better than George himself does :D, so I failed the see the need for all that yawning stuff.

Come on. Did you really know exactly who was who? Or what the hell was going on even before you've seen the movie? Man, you must be bored stupid when you watch movies. ;-)

But seriously, it's a whole different ballgame when you go back in time, as it were. You really don't know who Anakin is as a boy. You don't know his mother, you don't fully know about the Jedi council, about Yoda's roll, how Obi-Wan gets to train Anakin, how Palpatine moves up in the political chain - I could go on. There's a whole lot more to this movie than people want to believe. It is in fact an introduction to a new universe - because it's a universe 30-or-so years before the Empire and Rebellion. Come on. You can't seriously tell me you already knew the gist of things before hand.

And yes, I know what you mean with Ep4 in the original trilogy, but it STILL had some pretty spectacular stuff. Going into the death star, blowing it up, mos eisley, etc.
The thing with Ep4 was, George had NO idea if he was going to be able to make the trilogy, so it had to be catchy as a stand alone movie. He could hardly make a boring introduction movie that wouldn't get people to the theaters, because then he'd never be able to make the other two movies that he had just done the introduction for. He HAD to blow people away straight with Ep4. The fact that he then proceeded to blow everyone away AGAIN with Empire and Jedi was mere tribute to the man's movie making skills.

But with Ep 1, he KNEW he would make the whole trilogy, so it seems as if he forgot to make episode 1 at least a bit interesting. It's as if he figured "well, I can do a long drawn out boring intro, because the next two movies are secure anyways, so I'll leave everything for those two."
He redeems it a little in the end, with a spectacular lightsaber combat, but the rest of the movie is quite frankly just dull dull dull...

You are so very right when you say that EP4 needed to be a stand-alone movie. George didn't know if he'd be making the other eight movies after that. But the reason why parts of EP4 were boring is that people needed to be properly introduced to the universe. But back then, everything was brand-spakin' new. That made every boring and dry moment exciting. But now, really, look at EP4. It's dry compared to the other two.

And if you look - there's a plot gap in-between AND and ESB. What happened in-between the two movies? Certainly not Splinter of the Mind's Eye. ;-) But George didn't plan whole-heartilly for that.

EP1 is the set-up. I really don't think it was a boring movie at all. I found it intreaguing. I forced myself to get into the politics, and I found it pretty entertaining. Even in the so-called dry moments, I found myself just listening to the stories. Star Wars isn't all about 'Saber fights and starships - which is what people seem to think. If that's all you're looking for, I'm surprised you even like the other movies. And as far as action goes, EP1 had plenty of it.

And man, I wish people would just leave Jar-Jar alone. He was just fine in EP1. He had personality. I think people are ignorant when they compare him to be an ethnic representation or some other nonsense like that. Thank god no one's done that in this forum...

In any case, I guess EP1 wasn't what fans expected, because it's basically the set-up film for this trillogy. Fans expected non-stop action, blasters, 'Saber fights, and that's it. There's got to be substance to it all, and fans weren't expecting it. They just complain that the movie was too slow, and they totally ignore the substance and call it "dry and boring".

Episode II will rock your worlds, people. The set-up is complete.

princessliar
04-15-2002, 08:13 PM
My bro had an interesting idea on the Morgan appearing as a ghost issue. He said that maybe the ghost is more of a metaphor - a representation of Kyle's conscience. :)

Wes Janson SMR
04-15-2002, 10:55 PM
Whoa.... That's deep, man. ;-)

Coran
04-16-2002, 12:35 AM
I’m going to have to respectfully disagree with you on Episode 1 Wes. I agree with you mostly that since Ep1 was the 1st film of the new trilogy it started slower since it was setting up for the next 2 films but I think Lucas did a very poor job on casting.

First of all Jake Lloyd was a horrible actor! The first time I saw it was in theater and when he said, “I’m a person and my name is Anakin!” I just started laughing… people had to tell me to be quiet hehe. Back to my point, Jake never sounded half-decent, and it wasn’t just because he was small he just has no acting ability at all! The other problem was that Jake WAS simply too small. Its absurd to watch a kid that looks like he’s five destroy a giant droid control ship. Even if he is the “one” it is still cheesy even if he did do it on accident. Also to me it is disturbing to see a girl who looks like she is 18 hitting on a 5 year old! Yes, I know she is supposed to be like 14 and he 10 but neither of them look that age. It was so unrealistic to see this 5 yr old racing this pod at 600 mph and beating everybody. That midichlorian talk was pointless other than to explain that to the audience what midichlorians are. In fact it would have been fine if they didn’t explain them at all. The whole point of that was to get the point across that Anakin has more force potential than anybody else has ever had, even Yoda. We didn’t need to see another scene of Jake’s horrendous acting and seeing Jinn talk down to him like the baby that he is! Lucas should have gotten a different actor who was and looked much older, then all the incredible things he does wouldn’t look like so much BS. On a 1-10 scale I give Jake a 2.

The only steady, consistent actor was Liam Neeson as Qui Gon Jinn. Liam Neeson did a perfect job of correctly portraying the dignity and power of a Jedi Master. His acting helped others look better themselves. Ewan McGregor wasn’t bad, but he wasn’t stellar either, he’s no Alec Guinness that’s for sure. However, I must say that he did do a good job portraying the correct relationship between Jinn and he, it was just the sort of relationship between a master and padawan that looked realistic to me. Ewan did shine in some places though I must admit. On a whole I’d give him an 8 in a 1-10 scale.

Natalie Portman did okay but she wasn’t that good. I give her a 7. She did decent for most of the movie but some lines she just completely botched.

Captain Panaka dude was fine.

When I first saw Ep1 and watched Jar Jar Binks and his %$#@^&* antics I cried. I broke down and sobbed. That night I cried myself to sleep. Jar Jar is an idiot. Lucas put Jar Jar in Ep1 and the new trilogy for some comic relief because Ep1 and most notably Ep2 and 3 are going to be the darkest movies in the series, even more so than ESB. All the Jedi are gonna get wiped out. Anakin turns evil, Padme dies, and all of the inhabitants of the galaxy are enslaved under the rule of the cruel, brutal empire. Millions die in the fight for freedom. Through this we need something to keep us laughing a little, we need something to lighten our spirits. In the old trilogy it was the droids, why can’t it be the droids again? Why did Lucas have to appeal to little children with Jar Jar’s dumb antics? He’s not funny he’s an idiot. (Jar Jar) While Jar Jar’s stupid antics will entertain the little kids it pisses off the adults, the original trilogy was geared toward adults, why should the new one be any different? In Ep4 Han calls Ben Kenobi some colorful terms. Those were not meant for the children… why is Lucas trying to appeal to new different people when he did just fine before, he would do better if he wrote these movies for the star wars fans, not little children. The old series had lighter moments to relieve some of the tension of the more exciting and dangerous parts of the movies, they were well done and they will need to be in Ep2 as well. Lucas used the droids well to relieve the tension, he should use them again. I agree we need some comic relief but does it have to stupid? Use the droids more. Ditch Jar Jar.

Not only was the casting poor but so was the script. There are many memorable lines in Ep4, the start of the old trilogy, why is there none in Ep1? “Mesa Jar Jar Binks, mesa your humble servant.” *curls up in a corner sobbing and continually muttering why? why?*
The script was down right poor in some places. Sometimes it wasn’t the actors who bad, it was what they said. Some of the story was so unoriginal it was pathetic. Was George smoking crack when he wrote this? The pod race was a blatant copy of Ben-hur and the virgin birth thing, what was the deal with that? Is Anakin supposed to symbolize Jesus or something, because last time I checked Jesus did not turn to the dark side.

Don’t get me wrong, I love Star Wars. I saw Ep1 4 times in theaters and there are parts that are decent. Darth Maul was awesome. The lightsaber duel was breathtaking. But Lucas spent too much time hiring actors that look exactly like their supposed to and not enough looking for raw talent. Sure, Natalie looks like Leia and Jake kinda like Luke but are they good actors? No. The action (which is why I mostly like Star Wars) in Ep1 was great but you just can’t substitute action for poor acting and for a poor plot line. The old trilogy’s special effects and duels can be somewhat cheesy but the acting IS there. Harrison Ford was phenomenal in his part and Carrie Fisher held her own. Mark Hammil wasn’t bad either. James Earl Jones was perfect as Darth Vader. Perfect. I always love it when he says, “I find your lack of faith disturbing.” Or “Asteroids do not concern me Admiral, I want that ship.” Or “Impressive…most impressive.” Or “It is pointless to resist my son.” The only thing was that they didn’t time his voice with Vader’s body motions right all the time. Sometimes he’ll be shaking his finger but he’s already finished talking. lol. The old trilogy had fantastic acting and a great, original storyline and script. As well as some of the most memorable lines in movie history ever. Ep1 had… good special effects.

The point is that you can’t substitute acting for anything. I don’t know why Lucas thought he could make a good movie without good actors. With Liam Neeson gone who in my opinion did the best acting job in Ep1 I can only hope Hayden is a good actor and Natalie has improved. But I’ll save my comments on Ep2 for another post:-) I apologize for the length of the post but I had to get this off my shoulders. I did not write this to flame anyone. I only wanted to give my take on Ep1 and this post is only my opinion.

Wes Janson SMR
04-16-2002, 02:00 AM
Wow. You have some high standards.

Personally, I thought the acting was well enough. I didn't have much of a problem with the cast - including Jar Jar. I winced when I first heard Jake utter his first line in the movie, but then the kid grew on me.

On that note, have you seen the casting call snippets from the EPI DVD? It could have been a lot worse, believe me. Jake was fine in his role. The fact that he was so young and could accomplish those things made it all the more extraordinary.

Don't confuse Anakin with Jesus. I've seen too many people make that comparison. The story with Jesus is that Mary had born a child without original sin, or sex before marriage. Anakin's story is that his mother born him without a father. There could be any number of excuses for that - such as a Jedi indeed impregnated Shmi, but influenced her mind so that she would "forget" who the father is.

Anakin, Jesus, different.

And tell me where it says Padme dies? You might assume that, but please don't jump to conclusions. As far as the films go, they never said that the real Skywalker mother was dead.

And the Pod Race - yes, I agree. It's like one gigantic charriot race with engines instead of horses. To me, that made it all the more neat. Who else has done a charriot-type race besides Ben Hur, though? Originality is hard to come by these days. You do one thing, it's already been done in other movies. You should feel blessed that George didn't use Bullet Time in any of the scenes. ;-)

But man, I still can't see why people hate Jar Jar? It seems to me that people always try to find something wrong with a movie. I can remember Me, Myself, and Irene - a Jim Carry comedy about a dude with a split-personality. It suddedly turned controvercial that Jim would "stoop" to portray a person with such a "serious" problem.

And then Jar Jar sparked a whole new controversy about making fun of people of African ethnicity. God, I don't what that was about.... And then people say that Jar Jar was too kiddy-like, and that George had no right to put him there.

Let me tell you something. All of you (not picking on you, Coran). Lucas was incredibly excited about Jar Jar being in the movie. No one's done anything like Jar Jar - technical wise. And he jokingly said that Jar Jar would be the key to the movie. He loved him. And I could see why. I mean, he's a goofball, but an overall friendly character - unlike anyone else in the films. George flet that Jar Jar would bring a sence of relief and over-all character diversity to the film. I'm just sorry that people couldn't have kept an open mind, and embrace him as he was. Instead, most people reject him, saying that he doesn't belong in the Star Wars universe, much less the movie.

That's cold. Real cold. And being an author myself, I'm tempted to address those people with some colorful metaphors. But I don't, since everyone is entitled to their own oppinions.

Overall, I found myself accepting EP1 a lot better than most other people around here. But I know I'm not alone when I say that EP1 was a pretty good movie. Sure, it has its faults like any other movie. But I like it. Cast was just fine, acting was decent, pace was a little slow, but again, it's the first of a trillogy.

But if you really hate the acting, buy the DVD and watch it in Spanish with English subtitles. ;-)

A'Gaeris
04-16-2002, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by princessliar
Not bad for an "old man", and after all, is was said that Jerec's powers "rivaled Vader's".

Yes, but who actually believes that fiddle faddle?

Creston
04-16-2002, 12:26 PM
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR


Come on. Did you really know exactly who was who? Or what the hell was going on even before you've seen the movie? Man, you must be bored stupid when you watch movies. ;-)


Despite what you seem to think Wes, Episode 1 really wasn't all that hard to figure out. As you see Palpatine (the emperor) pretty early on in the movies, then see the same guy being one of the government of the Naboo, it doesn't take rocket science to figure out that the whole reason the Trade Federation is picking on the Naboo in the first place is simply to create political unrest to allow for Palpatine to rise to power. Exactly HOW he does it is ofcourse almost impossible to predict, but in the end, episode one shows you two things :
1) How Anakin came to be Obi - Wan's apprentice,
2) How Palpatine rose to power.
That's pretty much it. Oh no, wait, Amidala is in there, but unless Episode 2 makes some drastic changes in what her character actually does and means, she's more of a sideplot rather than anything major. (As in, we already KNOW she gives birth to Luke and Leia, and we ALSO know that this will be AFTER Anakin turns to the Dark Side). If there's going to be any more to her character, I'll be surprised..

And as I said, we knew who Obi - Wan was, if only by virtue of trailers and seeing "Ewan McGregor as Obi-Wan", we knew who Anakin Skywalker was, we know who Yoda is etc.
Making a two hour long introduction for these characters is hardly necessary. Qui Gon Jinn, on the other hand, hardly got any kind of introduction at all, and since he's the lead, that is also a little bit weird. But you relate to him THROUGH the fact that Obi-Wan calls him Master. If you hadn't know who Obi-Wan was, you wouldn't have had a CLUE who Qui Gon Jinn was supposed to be. Am I right?




But seriously, it's a whole different ballgame when you go back in time, as it were. You really don't know who Anakin is as a boy. You don't know his mother, you don't fully know about the Jedi council, about Yoda's roll, how Obi-Wan gets to train Anakin, how Palpatine moves up in the political chain - I could go on. There's a whole lot more to this movie than people want to believe. It is in fact an introduction to a new universe - because it's a universe 30-or-so years before the Empire and Rebellion. Come on. You can't seriously tell me you already knew the gist of things before hand.


I'm not saying that I knew EVERYTHING beforehand, but I AM saying that it wasn't hard to have puzzled quite a few things out by the time the Jedi and Amidala flee Naboo.
And no, we don't know how Obi-Wan comes to train Anakin, and how Palpatine rises to power, as those are the two things that this movie talks about. As for the rest... I don't really see them as all that vitally important. Did we EVER hear anything about Han Solo's history, or Luke's history etc in the original trilogy? It didn't make the characters any less believable or any less excellent for that matter. Episode 1 was 1 hour 30 minutes of introduction coupled with 30 minutes of good action. In my opinion, it would have done far better had it been the other way around, or at least a 50/50 split.





You are so very right when you say that EP4 needed to be a stand-alone movie. George didn't know if he'd be making the other eight movies after that. But the reason why parts of EP4 were boring is that people needed to be properly introduced to the universe. But back then, everything was brand-spakin' new. That made every boring and dry moment exciting. But now, really, look at EP4. It's dry compared to the other two.


No argument there. I never said that Ep4 was better than Empire or Jedi. It IS however, a far better introductory movie than Episode 1 is, and is, by itself (if you ignore quality of CGI etc) a better movie than episode 1. Episode 1 is at the bottom of the 4 movies (in my book), and it's quite a distance between it and number 3 (ep 4).


And if you look - there's a plot gap in-between AND and ESB. What happened in-between the two movies? Certainly not Splinter of the Mind's Eye. ;-) But George didn't plan whole-heartilly for that.


I don't really see what your point is and how it relates to our discussion? The reason there ARE gaps in the timeframe is that it would be unrealistic for the Rebellion to be able to go from nowhere to defeating the Empire in such a short timeframe. Also, if you don't allow time for the Rebellion to actually MOVE to Hoth, and then for the Imperial's probedroid to actually find them, you've got a tough time explaining the start of Empire :)



EP1 is the set-up. I really don't think it was a boring movie at all. I found it intreaguing. I forced myself to get into the politics, and I found it pretty entertaining. Even in the so-called dry moments, I found myself just listening to the stories. Star Wars isn't all about 'Saber fights and starships - which is what people seem to think. If that's all you're looking for, I'm surprised you even like the other movies. And as far as action goes, EP1 had plenty of it.


I actually beg to differ. Return of the Jedi was very little more than sabers and starships and blasters, and while I feel that Empire is a better movie than RotJ, that doesn't mean that I didn't think Jedi was an awesome spectacle to watch. Episode 1 could have done with a whole lot more sabers and starships, and it really would NOT have hurt the movie any. So if you only like Sabers and Starships, most of the original trilogy would have suited you just fine, especially Jedi.
As for the politics *shrug*. I see enough politics IRL, I don't especially need to see any in my movies :D, and the whole political aspect of the movie was easily figured out after seeing Palpatine as the Emperor (or Darth Sidious...) and then seeing him as one of the representatives of the Naboo government.
And even so, the political aspect of the movie wasn't all that prevalent, the whole desert scene was..


And man, I wish people would just leave Jar-Jar alone. He was just fine in EP1. He had personality. I think people are ignorant when they compare him to be an ethnic representation or some other nonsense like that. Thank god no one's done that in this forum...


*cough* personality *cough*
There's no accounting for taste :p
Kidding aside, WHAT did Jar Jar Binks add to the movie besides a TREMENDOUS amount of annoyance at :
A) His voice
B) The things he says (Mesa, Yousa, Whatcha )
C) The things he does ( :swear: )

Yes, he was there for comic relief. Unfortunately, the words comic relief mean you're supposed to find something funny about him, to take your mind off the generally depressing movie around it. Jar Jar Binks wasn't comic relief, he was Annoyance Torture Infliction(tm) (c).
And then for what you say later, how George defended Jar Jar Binks etc, simply in my mind goes to show how seriously weird he's getting. If 99% of all the people who saw your movie said that they thought the character was exceedingly crap, there really is nothing else to say but "Well, it was an experiment, it failed, no more Jar Jar Binks in the next movie".
As far as impressing people with CGI abilities, sorry, Jar Jar wasn't all THAT State of the Art anymore..



In any case, I guess EP1 wasn't what fans expected, because it's basically the set-up film for this trillogy. Fans expected non-stop action, blasters, 'Saber fights, and that's it. There's got to be substance to it all, and fans weren't expecting it. They just complain that the movie was too slow, and they totally ignore the substance and call it "dry and boring".



Episode4 was the setup film for the original trilogy, but people were a whole lot more thrilled about that than they were about episode 1, and Episode4 needed a whole lot MORE substance because it had a whole lot more to explain. 30 years difference aside, we all knew what a lightsaber was, and what the Old Republic was, and what a Jedi Knight was etc when we went to go see Episode 1.
I cannot say what fans expected, I think that after Return of the Jedi, expectations were probably too high for what was only the first movie in a new trilogy, but on the other hand, Wes, and not to rag on your or anything, the things you call "substance" ARE seen as dry and boring by a whole lot of people. That doesn't mean they ignore it, that doesn't mean they don't see it as substance, they just feel that it's dry and boring. You can introduce something in a stuffy, drawn out way, or you can introduce something in a "Woohoo, action time" way.
Funnily enough, Episode 1 starts off well, because straight from the start, the Jedi go onboard the Trade Federation flagship and instead of half an hour's worth of negotiations (movie time), only to then try to have them murdered, it simply skips the part that would have been tragically boring, and moves straight into the action.
As an author, you yourself should know this well. Start off with some action, to get your readers' attention.
But after that initial bit of action, there is literally an HOUR where the only thing that happens is the Pod Race. And yes, while it was funny, and quite entertaining, it does NOT redeem an hour's worth of Liam Neeson walking around in the desert talking to some CGI bug.
And yes, Anakin needed to be introduced, but let's get real here. Luke got a ten minute introduction in Episode 4. Han got zero, Leia got zero, Chewie got zero, Lando got about five, and they all got by FINE as characters. Did the little twerp really NEED an hour's worth of yammering to introduce him?
If that is substance to you, no problem, I just would have liked to have seen it packaged a little better.
And sorry to burst your bubble, but Star Wars IS blasters and sabers and spaceships. It's never been anything else. It's not called Space Opera for nothing :)




Episode II will rock your worlds, people. The set-up is complete.

As Kyle so famously said : We'll see. ;)


To draw on a few things Coran said, I agree with the casting, as my hatred for anything called Jake Lloyd is by now well known. The kid didn't grow on ME, because he had nothing to grow. He had no acting talent, it didn't matter if he pretended to be angry or sad or whatever, because everything he said and did was delivered in the same monotonous drawl that he has, his face had only one expression no matter what was happening etc.
Now, we cannot expect every child actor to be as good as Haley Joel Osmond (that kid is FREAKY he's such a good actor), and we cannot expect an.. 8? 10? year old boy to deliver a world dazzling performance, but even Macauley Culkin did a better job in Home Alone, and he REALLY didn't have to do any acting.

It would perhaps have been a lot better, especially considering the fact that in Episode 2 Anakin is already a late teenager, to set the movie around a somewhat later timeframe in Anakin's life, such as when he was 13 or 14 or so. That would have allowed Lucas to screen a whole lot of far better actors, and you can easily get an 18 year old actor to look like a 14 year old guy.
Personally, I felt that Jake Lloyd looked and acted more like he was six.
Still, in hindsight everybody has twenty / twenty vision...

As for Ewan McGregor, I have to say I was somewhat surprised. You see, I have seen Ewan McGregor perform on stage in the UK, and he was just FABULOUS. I mean, we talk about the Royal Shakespeare Theater, he is right there at the top with all the other greats. So in a way, his kinda lackluster performance wasn't what I expected, but I think that perhaps it was partly him still discovering the character, and probably a larger part in that Obi-Wan really doesn't DO a whole lot in this movie. I expect that to change quite for the better in Episode 2.

Natalie Portman did what was asked of her, and she did a good job. Samuel Jackson.... Well... Let's say that I kinda already lost respect when I found out that he had almost literally begged Lucas for a role in his next star wars series (trying to add fame to your name so you can finally win an Oscar Samuel?) and I just thought he looked more like an extra than anything else. Perhaps that's just his character though. He's a great actor, but he's more well suited to flamboyant and passionate characters, and not this dry Jedi Stuff. Ian whatchamacallum was excellent as Palpatine. I really like him, I already liked him in the five minutes he was in Jedi, and I liked him here.

So all in all, except for Jake Lloyd, which was a VERY tragic mistake, I did kinda agree with the casting. As for the rhetoric and the script, I agree with Coran 100%. I really missed some fun one liners such as Han and Leia used to make. (You came in that thing? You're braver than I thought! :D)

Here's hoping George will make good on his mistakes in Episode 2.

Creston
Sorry for the excessive length (I'm bored :D)

Kurgan
04-16-2002, 03:15 PM
Previous candidate:


Leia (ESB): I don't know where you get your delusions, LASER BRAIN!


New Winner:

Jar Jar: EXQUUUUUUEEEEEEEZE ME!

Party on Wayne! Party on Jar Jar....
; p

He was such an embarrassing and annoying character. His closest counterpart was Wicket the Ewok, but unlike our pal Wicket, he had about 100x the screentime (since he was in all of the movie, and not just the third act). Plus, the ewok spoke his own language (yub yub!) instead of speaking like a Walt Disney sidekick character (designed to elicit giggles from small children).

I can understand George wanting comic relief, but did we really need this "Goofy" wannabe? (with apologies to Goofy fans)

The story with Jesus is that Mary had born a child without original sin, or sex before marriage. Anakin's story is that his mother born him without a father. There could be any number of excuses for that - such as a Jedi indeed impregnated Shmi, but influenced her mind so that she would "forget" who the father is.

Anakin, Jesus, different.


Actually, now we're getting the other side confused. It used to be people would say "Anakin was an imaculate conception." The IC of course referred to Mary being conceieved without original sin. As we all know, that's not true of Anakin, since he does a lot of sinning later on in his life (without original sin, according to doctrine, there's no real tendancy to sin in a person).

Now it doesn't ever say in the movie that Shmi is a VIRGIN (ie: has never had sexual intercourse) but it does say "there was no father" so barring any test tube experiments or artificial means, it means that Anakin's conception was somehow miraculous. It's about as close as you can get to Jesus's birth, without having angels announce it etc. Jesus was born of a virgin, according to the New Testament. (True, Jesus doesn't have original sin either, since it's thought to be inheirited)

Notice that both Jesus and Anakin appear to fulfill prophecy with their miraculous births. Both are recognized early on by religious elders (Qui Gon Jinn / John the Baptist) etc.

However, Anakin is a kind of "Anti-Christ" since he falls away from goodness and becomes its opposite in the evil figure of Darth Vader. He becomes a murderer and persecutor of his faith order. Though he's redeemed through the sacrifice of his son (the conflict dualism model is prevelant in all of Star Wars).

Incidentally, I attended a conference in Chicago this month wherein that was the topic of my presentation, was quite fun (not just that, but a lot of Star Wars related stuff). Nobody objected to that analysis.

Creston
04-16-2002, 03:43 PM
Actually, there have been SO MANY stories and films written and made about prophecies and "The One" who will come to fullfil the prophecy that it wouldn't surprise me at all that there are certain writers who simply use the prophecy part without ever realising they are referring to the life of Christ...

I'm not sure if George Lucas is religious, there seem to be religious themes in his movies (such as The Force etc), it could very well be however that he just thought that up without ever thinking of Jesus Christ.

Who knows, probably only George himself, and HE likes Jar Jar Binks, so his opinion is very suspect :p

Creston

Wes Janson SMR
04-16-2002, 03:52 PM
Sithspawn! That's a long post! I'm at school, so I'll have to read and rebutt later. ;-)

Coran
04-16-2002, 09:33 PM
On a good note I've heard rumors that Jar Jar is a senator in Ep2 and he'll only be in a few parts of the movie.

Another thing that worries me though is how Lucas was going to have N'sync in Ep2 as minor Jedi characters in the backround until he got a horrendous number of emails from SW fans telling him that if he did it he would alienate all the true SW fans. What is Lucas thinking? Also I've read the main plot line of Ep2 from theforce.net and Anakin sounds like a really weak character. Hopefully Hayden is a good actor, I don't know anything about him. I totally had my own perception of what he would be like and why he turned, I thought I learned these things from some book but I don't remember... I've gotta do my homework so I'll save my opinion and thoughts of why Anakin turned for another post sometime:-)

Darwin11
04-16-2002, 10:00 PM
Wait till I'm done before flaming.. :D

JarJar isn't that bad of a character..

BUT his portrayal in ep1 was mostly useless. You can cut all the toilet humor and useless-to-the-plot bufoonery, and I can see what George probably saw in the cahracter. But they just overdid it, gave JarJar completely unnecessary scenes "Icky Poo!" And generally ruined it. =P

estarriol
04-17-2002, 05:29 AM
George Lucas and Starwars there is absolutly no way that he can be wrong


Sorry, but as a rabid StarWars fan that's only just coming back into fandom after an extended time away since the absolute farce that were the special editions + episode one nearly spoiled the entire thing for me I've got to beg to differ here.

To me the EU is now StarWars canon. I am treating George Lucas like a senile uncle. Sure, I'll humour him, but damned if I believe a word that he says from here on in.

I don't care that he made the original three movies (on ideas that he stole from other people anyway), his abysmal remakes and the dismal failure that was episode one totally strips him of any kind of status in my eyes.

Add onto that the sheer nerve that he has to either personally authorise or allow his company authorise the works that compose the EU and then go and trash portions of those said works whilst editing the original trilogy and making episode one (eg: crowds pulling down an emperor statue on Coruscant when it's said in the books that the Empire covered up his death to stop exactly those type of things from happening) and I'm not exactly over the moon with his efforts lately.

Lucas can go on making his new kiddy movie trilogy. That's just fine. I'll be the one not taking it seriously, sitting back waiting for the architects of the EU to pick the decent stuff out of the schmaltz, shine it up, then construct (in conjunction with each other, rather than steamrolling over the top of past works) something worthy of notice from it.

um, oof? geez, consider my spleen vented :)

hi everyone, i'm est and i'm a starwarsaholic.

est.

Wes Janson SMR
04-17-2002, 05:49 AM
Where in the EU series said that the Empire "covered up the Emperor's death"? I've started reading from Shadows of the Empirep and I've read all the way to Assault on Selonia (and still going strong). I don't recall ever reading that particular tidbit.

Actually...come to think of it, there was one book that actually supported Lucas's addition to RotJ. I'm not sure which one, but it was one of the latter books of the X-Wing Series - during the reighn of Wraith Squadron. One of the characters was actually there, at Coruscan, when they celebrated the destruction of the Death Star and the death of the Emperor. But not too long after the start of that celabration, Stormtroopers jumped out and showed 'em all who's boss.

estarriol
04-17-2002, 07:19 AM
I'll have to go back through the books that it's likely to be in and look into it. I have a feeling that it was mentioned in passing in the book/series where Isard's SSD rises up from underground on Coruscant, but I could be way off.

I vaguely remember it being a reference to how the Emperor was the heart of the Empire in more than title and how when he died at Endor it turned the whole tide of battle and spread a shockwave throughout the Empire. They then went on to say something about only being able to prevent Coruscant from turning into something unpleasant for them by covering up the Emperor's death and saying that it was a rumour that was being spread by rebel spies.

In any case it was meant to be one example, not my entire argument :) If you want another example then see the Sarlacc chomping on Boba Fett in ROTJ stuffing up Fett's story in Tales of the from the Empire(? I think), and again in ROTJ the extended band sequence stuffing up the story about the Jizzwailers from Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina.

and for the record: Immaculate conceptions, JarJar Binks and Mitochlorians - oh my!

ahem :)

est

ChrisTheS
04-17-2002, 07:53 AM
Yeah... umm, can we talk about the Dark Forces continuity now, instead of Star Wars canon? Whether you think Lucas's say-so is the word of God or not, it really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and I don't think we can actually accomplish anything in the group consciousness by arguing it.

I've already stated my personal view that we should take the events of MOTS with a grain of salt; after all, not all Hutts have their own pet rancors, for one thing (it's stated in several places in the EU that the fascination with bizarre pets was a trait pretty much unique to Jabba among the Hutt bosses.) Given an event of that magnitude which has to be ignored for the sake of continuity, the color of the lightsabers (which were, I think, changed just for the sake of changing things) is an easy thing to overlook. Orange is close enough to yellow, purple is close enough to blue that it really isn't that much of a big deal.

And now, another issue... future continuity. Being that I've just put out a call for a mod team to help me expand the storyline into the New Jedi Order timeline, I'd like some input. In JO we see the first real signs of a serious (but badly animated) relationship between Kyle and Jan (which we've all suspected for quite some time, and did actually appear in the book versions, albeit only briefly). The plotline I'm currently considering for the mod hinges upon Kyle and Jan having finally gotten married some time after JO, and having had a son who would be 14-15 years old by the time of Star By Star. (I may be slightly off on my timeline, but as I recall JO takes place roughly 13 years after RotJ; Vector Prime takes place 12 years later, and another 2 and a half years elapse by the time of the first appearance of the voxyn in Star by Star.) Does any of this seem wildly unrealistic to anyone, or likely to conflict in any way with any future Dark Forces games (if, indeed, any more are made... which I personally doubt, but the marketing goons might decide to milk the franchise some more, so who knows)? Additionally, I haven't got the faintest idea what to NAME this as-yet-theoretical son... right now I have 3 possibilities, all taken from previous Dark Forces and Jedi Knight mods and fanfic, and none of which I'm particularly keen on.

Also, given Kyle's ability to take on the entire Empire by himself, how many voxyn does anyone think he'd be able to single-handedly dispose of? As for the Yuuzhan Vong themselves, they should be slightly harder to dispose of than a Shadowtrooper, so no worries there.

Creston
04-17-2002, 11:16 AM
The part of the Imperials on Coruscant covering up the Emperor's Death is not mentioned in so many words, but becomes evident when Corran escapes from the Lusankya in "Xwing, The Krytos Trap", and winds up in the Galactic Museum / Imperial Museum, where it shows the Emperor to go out to Endor to fight the REBEL DeathStar etc.

Pure propaganda, but Corran makes some kind of remark that gives you the idea that most people on Coruscant believe it.

I also found that scene in RotJ SPC to be a little unbelievable. But hey, it's Lucas' property, he can do whatever he wants to, right?

As for Lucas wanting to put N Sync in there, hello, it's not THAT hard to figure out, he's turning Ep2 into a romance with a character that every young girl in the world swoons over (Hayden Christiansen or whatever his name is), AND he wants to put what is probably the most famous boyband at the time into his movie.

And people STILL don't believe me when I say he wants to beat Titanic's record, and the ONLY way he can do that is by getting the teenage girls to come back to see his movie 18 times in a row (hoping that this time Jack Won't Die / Anakin Won't Turn Evil)??

Come on people, use the Force! :D

And can someone explain to me just WHY people are continuously whining when a thread goes off topic? Is it REALLY THAT MUCH WORK for people to just skip over parts of a thread you don't like? Is your middle finger getting tired from all that scrolling you have to do with your little mouse wheel or something? If a discussion on Dark Forces continuity goes on long enough, the question of Canon is brought into it, which will inevitably lead to a discussion of Star Wars Canon.
If that's not what you want to read, fine, then DON'T READ IT . Stop complaining about it already!
A week hence we'll have people on these forums as well going "D4Rk f0rc3s 5t0ry 0n7y n00b5! FU L4m3r5!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

Wes Janson SMR
04-17-2002, 04:15 PM
I never saw the problem with having N'Sync in EP2. They were going to be extras. Two non-speaking scenes in the movie. Completely in the background. Completely not interacting with the story at all. Nothing. Just stand around, looking like a Jedi and Naboo guard. That's it.

And fans scream about it. You know why? It's just because it's N'Sync out there, that's why. I think it's stupid, and I thought the fans were severely overreacting the situation to the point of absurdity.

If they were going to break into a teeney-bop song-and-dance routine in the movie, then yeah, I'd protest right along with ya'll. But they weren't. They were offered the chance of a lifetime - being extras in a STAR WARS movie. But no....Star Wars fans wouldn't have it.. That's dissapointing.

I wish Lucas kept their involvement confidential. It would have caused a lot less heart ache. I mean really - put yourself into their shoes. You go to the shooting site - you get into costume, you're do your shoots, and you go home, knowing you'll be imortalized in a Star Wars movie. But just because of who you are, fans scream against it, and Lucas takes you out. I'd be pissed.

And you know what? I think the fans who protested against it were wrong.

JediBlade
04-18-2002, 04:43 AM
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR
And tell me where it says Padme dies? You might assume that, but please don't jump to conclusions. As far as the films go, they never said that the real Skywalker mother was dead.


In RotJ, when Luke and Leia talk outside the Ewok treehouse (before he goes to find Vader), Luke asks Leia to tell him about her real mother. Leia says that her mother died when she was very young.

So, depending on how far Lucas decides to go (past the bith of Luke and Leia), we may or may not see Padme die.

Just wanted to clear that up.

Also, on the issue of lightsabers melting the door... when Qui-Gon first tries to cut through the door, they close the second set of doors. So, Qui-Gon pulls his saber out, and shoves it straight through both doors in a very direct manner. Then the door starts melting. Perhaps he attuned himself to HIS saber (assuming it was built by him), and through the Force, was able to melt the door. Just speculation on my part....

ChrisTheS
04-18-2002, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by Creston
And can someone explain to me just WHY people are continuously whining when a thread goes off topic?

Well, I for one am on the Dialup Connection From Hell, and each page of this thing takes about 10 minutes to load. It would be nice if, when it finally does load, it consists largely of what I originally loaded it FOR in the first place.

If a thread this long gets drawn onto a lengthy tangent, then perhaps it would be a good idea to start another thread with that topic and allow this one to go back to what is stated in the title, if for no other reason than my fellow Demonic Dialup users will have fewer off-topic posts slowing down our load times.

Kurgan
04-18-2002, 12:32 PM
Yeah... umm, can we talk about the Dark Forces continuity now, instead of Star Wars canon? Whether you think Lucas's say-so is the word of God or not, it really has nothing to do with the topic at hand, and I don't think we can actually accomplish anything in the group consciousness by arguing it.

Here, here....

Keiran Halcyon
04-18-2002, 04:14 PM
Originally posted by Creston
The part of the Imperials on Coruscant covering up the Emperor's Death is not mentioned in so many words, but becomes evident when Corran escapes from the Lusankya in "Xwing, The Krytos Trap", and winds up in the Galactic Museum / Imperial Museum, where it shows the Emperor to go out to Endor to fight the REBEL DeathStar etc.

Pure propaganda, but Corran makes some kind of remark that gives you the idea that most people on Coruscant believe it.

I also found that scene in RotJ SPC to be a little unbelievable. But hey, it's Lucas' property, he can do whatever he wants to, right?


In one book they explain it, they sayd that shortly after the scene in the movie stormtroopers came and arrested people violenty (it means some people got shoot) to restore order.

Wes Janson SMR
04-18-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by JediBlade


In RotJ, when Luke and Leia talk outside the Ewok treehouse (before he goes to find Vader), Luke asks Leia to tell him about her real mother. Leia says that her mother died when she was very young.

So, depending on how far Lucas decides to go (past the bith of Luke and Leia), we may or may not see Padme die.

Well, can't argue with that...yet.

obijonkenobi
04-19-2002, 07:20 AM
Originally posted by Camerhil
There's one other possible explanation for the whole lightsaber colour debate. Have you noticed that it's only the learners who use blue sabers? Luke has one in Empire before he's a fully fledged Jedi, but when he makes his own (when his powers have matured) it changes colour to green.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't Obi-Wan's saber in TPM blue, and Qui-Gonn's green? Haven't watched this film a lot, so I can't really remember. If so, this does suggest that blue is the learner's colour.

It would then make sense for Kyle to adopt a blue saber when re-learning the force. It might also explain Yun's yellow saber as a dark side equivalent. You could argue that Darth Maul should then have had a yellow saber, but since he's a fully-fledged Darth, he'd probably qualify for a nice big red one all of his own.

As for purple sabers, well, some people just have to be different. It makes me laugh picturing Jackson having a face off with Lucas, saying something like "All the candy-ass white men have their own colours, but what about the bruthas? If I can't have a black saber, I guess purple will have to do".

Or maybe not.

The trailers for Episode 2 have Obi-Wan using a blue saber, not green. And in A New Hope, Obi-Wan still uses a blue lightsabre. He is a Jedi Master in both movies. Yet no green blade in sight.

I personally have an idea that George doen't care about continuity as much as the die-hard fans do. George may like to keep it as linear as possible but in the end there are some things in the movies which will contradict each other. One which comes to mind was how in ROTJ Obiwan explains to luke how he thought he could train anakin as well as yoda did, but yoda didnt train anakin at all! And if it was mentioning how he thought he could train anakin as well as yoda trained obiwan, again the only one who trained obi was quigon - no mention to yoda doing any training of obiwan in the movies.

But it shouldnt really matter as they are very very enjoyable movies - they tie with Lord of the Rings with being the best "movie-saga" ever!

PS: I can make that claim about LOTR as I have read the books multiple times and I know if the next to movies are adapted as well as the first one was then my claim is correct)

RoyalGuard
04-19-2002, 09:44 AM
My thoughts on the whole thing...

Game continuity: I find it logical that Kyle should build his own sabre, after all his entire career he's only used someone else's. If as some people have suggested, he went to Luke after MOTS to seek help after turning to teh dark side, constructing his own lightsabre would be a natural part of him returning to the light. An affirmation of his decision if you will. Also the time scale fits to have the games in chronological order (in MOTS the NR are still fighting the empire, in JO they're acknowledged as the Remnant).

Padme dieing: Luke was told his father was dead, Leia could have been told that her mother was dead when in fact she fled deeper into hiding (alderaan not being exactly backwater and out of the way).

Canon: If you want to cut yourself of from the wealth of ideas and stories in the EU because of some minor (and they are minor) contradictions with the films that's your decision. Just respect the decision of people who want to enjoy the Starwars universe more fully without labelling us as traitors to Star wars.

The whole SE coruscant thing; The x-wing book with Corran on coruscant (either Wedge's Gamble or the Krytos trap) has Corran explain it as riots about the emperor's death, not celebrations, which were forcefully dispersed.

Keiran Halcyon
04-19-2002, 04:02 PM
Here i go:

Obi-wan was trained by yoda untill he was a teenager, then Qui-Gon accepted to train him (he didnt' before because he had lost an student to the darkside, Xanatos, and didn't want to train again, but in the end he accepted.
Obi-wan says: i thought i could train him as pefectly as yoda will do, or something, he DOES NOT say anakin was trained by yoda, he only is saying that he believed that he (obi-wan) could train a padawan as well as yoda, telling us his arrogance maybe...

Padme's death: well i supose we will not see that in the movies, since EpIII surely end with the birth of luke and leia, and obi-wan going with luke to tatooine and Padme to Alderaan with leia.
But as they say in the Black fleet crisis trilogy, Padme was supposed to have lived more, and had a kind of FORCE, or something. But in the end i do not know if it all was a fake or not. (someone knows? tell me :))

I forgot to mention that the proof that Morgan Katarn had the FORCE is this: to whom did kyle make statues in the valley of the jedi? Yes Qu Rahn and.....MORGAN KATARN :) ifs he hadn't have the force, kyle wouldnt' have done that.

Saber colors: does anyone know if there are more than green. blue, purple and red in the new movie?
Luke/anakin/mara jade 's saber is blue or light blue?
Yellow is not a dark side color because yun had it as somenoe pointed out, in fact dark jedi in JK had blue, purple, yellow, orange sabers,that some are in fact good ones. Callista Ming had a yellow saber, and she was from the old republic. (good jedi :))

Wes Janson SMR
04-19-2002, 05:48 PM
Personally, I think that Akana (spelling) led Luke with a carrot dangling on a stick. That whole mother quest was a big charade. I'm disgusted that someone would do such a horrid thing - even just to get home. Yech... My oppionion and speculation, though. ;-)

For all we know, though, Padme's still alive. If she went to Alderaan with Leia, she might have left when Leia never came back from her "diplomatic mission", in search of her.

It's a little out there - but there is a distinct possibility that Padme's still out there, just waiting to be reunited with her kids.

Han did say that a woman claims to be their mother about every week or so. Maybe one of them was Padme!! ;-)

And as far as I know, Sam Jackson made a special request for a purple 'saber. And that he didn't want to "go down like some punk".

Waspie
04-21-2002, 01:46 AM
Hrm..

For those that say GL is the only source of canon material.. Where does the Christmas Special fit in?

I mean, it IS the first appearance of Fett, and all... :fett:

Wes Janson SMR
04-21-2002, 02:11 AM
Heh. Yeah. And what ever happened to that Ewok movie? Isn't that canon, too? ;-)

Kurgan
04-21-2002, 02:45 AM
Well, they were created by George Lucas or his companies, BUT, they are, at best "made for TV movies" not "films" so perhaps that means they aren't "canon" though they would be just as official as the rest of the EU. ; )

Kurgan

Wes Janson SMR
04-21-2002, 02:59 AM
Heh. I guess that makes sense. As wierd as it was, I rather liked the Droids cartoon.

Agen
04-21-2002, 11:22 AM
coming dwon to it all i don't think discussing it has changed anything..... :D
Waste of time :D

Keiran Halcyon
04-21-2002, 11:48 AM
And about Slinter of the mind's eye happening officially before ESB, well Darth Vader seemed to know Skywalker very well, and in ANH they DID NOT met...

SithSeeD
04-21-2002, 03:21 PM
George Lucas seems to use what he likes in the expanded universe. In Episode I the planet Coruscant, later called Imperial Center was named Coruscant by George Lucas because Timothy Zahn had called it that in his first Star Wars novel. GL just wanted to keep some of the continuity with the EU. Same with the Special Editions, there are many Shadows of the Empire nods in A New Hope, the additions of Swoop bikes in Mos Eisley as well as fly-by by Dash Rendar's Outrider.

Anyways back to the topic of Kyle's saber. We obviously assume that Kyle took the light side path in JKI. That means he lost his original saber and used Yun's saber. Remember the JK engine was tweaked for MOTS ? Adding dynamic lighting, and more colors. The fact that Kyle's saber is orange ish in MOTS may just because of the higher definition color etc, or an effort by LEC to make it look cooler or something. It is Yun's saber we see in MOTS.

As for JK2 and his blue saber, it makes perfect sense that he built a new one. If any of you have been paying attention to Episode II info , it appears that Obi-wan has constructed a new saber , or retrieved his old one, after using Qui-gon Jinn's saber to defeat Darth Maul. Now if you were a Jedi, or a samurai , or some sort of sword wielding person, the obvious preference would be for you to be able to use your own saber. So I figure Kyle just made a new one, and stopped using Yun's out of respect for him or something.

I'm also hoping that the rumblings are true of a JK2 expansion , perhaps a prequel to JK2 , that explains the whole saber issue.

"And that is my time, thank you very much. My name is"

SithSeeD

And I'll be here all week."

Dark Empire 4 Life

SithSeeD
04-21-2002, 03:25 PM
To me it seems that George Lucas accepts what he likes in the Expanded universe, and completely ignores something. I seem to recall a book or Comic , that detailed Boba Fett's past... telling of his true name and that he was an inmate in a prison or some crap. Anyways I guess GL just threw that out the window as you will see in Episode II. From what I've seen the Dark Forces / Jedi Knight Saga, do follow the Star Wars "Canon", but the events tend to happen outside the chronology and don't seem to adversely affect things.

SithSeeD

Kurgan
04-22-2002, 03:19 AM
Anyways back to the topic of Kyle's saber. We obviously assume that Kyle took the light side path in JKI. That means he lost his original saber and used Yun's saber. Remember the JK engine was tweaked for MOTS ? Adding dynamic lighting, and more colors. The fact that Kyle's saber is orange ish in MOTS may just because of the higher definition color etc, or an effort by LEC to make it look cooler or something. It is Yun's saber we see in MOTS.

Actually, this isn't correct. MotS added colored lighting to the Sith engine (that JK used) but it was static, not dynamic. JK and MotS both had the same selection of saber colors for multiplayer, and if you compare them, you'll see that Yun's gold saber in JK (and the one Kyle uses on the light path) is completely different than the Orange saber in either games (which matches perfectly with the one Kyle uses in MotS).

Now that we're back on track (from SW continuity back to DF continuity), any other ideas why Kyle suddenly has a blue lightsaber in JK2?

The idea about him getting rid of his orange one, because it reminded him of his flirting with the Dark Side of the Force and almost killing a friend and ally is a good one. However, why would he make a new lightsaber then give that one up to Luke?

It seems more likely to my mind that he would give up the orange one, or destroy it, and have to make a new one, but he'd hold off until he actually needed it.

So, either he'd have to get an orange saber in JK2 (this is how I play, I used the sabercolor cheat code so I'd be getting an orange saber instead of a blue one.. heh), or else he'd have to make a new saber (and maybe it would be blue). But then they couldn't have the lightsaber trial level...

My guess is still that in reality Raven just didn't care enough about continuity, or else they just liked blue so much, they fudged it so we'd have blue. But I started this thread because I wanted to see if there was some way we could come up with a rational explanation, knowing the EU background to the story.

Kurgan

Wes Janson SMR
04-22-2002, 04:25 AM
I agree with your last comment about Raven changing the color to blue on a whim - probably because of the coolness factor (which is nonsense). I read the interview on JKII.net's main page - and the guy claims that Kyle built a new 'saber, but that story was cooked up after the fact (er..correct me if I'm wrong about that).

But let's say that he didn't throw Yun's 'saber away (which I fermly believe he used for MotS). The 'saber belonged to a former Dark Jedi, still new in the ways of the Force. Perhapse his workmanship of the lightsaber was a little shoddy. The crystal burnt out, and Kyle needed to replace it while he was trying to learn under Luke.

I would more buy that than him building a whole new lightsaber. Kyle doesn't seem like the type to undertake such hurdles lightly.

And this whole thing about Kyle being in the novel Darksaber, I don't know. I read through the book, but I don't recall him being there - or anywhere in the EU series novels.

But would make the most sense, to me, is that Kyle gave up the Force right after his second brush with the Dark Side at the end of MotS. If I judge Kyle correctly, that would probably be the last straw right there and then. He runs off to Luke, hands him the lightsaber, and goes off to sulk in his own ignorance of the Force. He washes his hands of it, and goes back to being a Merc for hire.

That would make sense. But then, it probably didn't happen that way. ;-)

ChrisTheS
04-22-2002, 05:17 AM
I'm glad there are other people out there who are willing to discard the evidence of their own eyes with regard to MOTS saber colors...

The JO can't be Yun's with a new crystal, though; the two sabers don't have the same body. Yun's is more akin in style to Qui-Gon's--more basic grip, conical emitter matrix--whereas Kyle's is more like Rahn's, although with a longer body (which could either be designed for a better two-hand grip or for a higher-capacity power cell). Of course, if you were talking about the crystal having been changed for the MOTS saber, then of course we can't tell what the body style was due to the fact that all sabers there are just 3-sided cylinder blocks...

The only EU books Kyle has appeared in (at least, so as to actually be noticeable) are the William C. Dietz novelizations of the games. There is something else in the EU called the 'Katarn Fleet', but there's no connection whatsoever.

Wes Janson SMR
04-22-2002, 05:27 AM
You're probably referring to the "Katana" Fleet, there. ;-)

And I never really noticed Yun's 'saber style. I haven't played the game in over a year. I should really boot it back up again..

As for EU references, I remember Chewbacca teaching his kid how to hunt wild animals called "Katarns", but I'm sure that's just purely coincidental.

The color change from JK to MotS might be due to the crystal in Yun's 'saber wearing down. That's just a guess, though.

And you'd think that if Kyle ever had a color preference, it would probably be green - the color of his very first lightsaber.

princessliar
04-22-2002, 11:45 AM
As for EU references, I remember Chewbacca teaching his kid how to hunt wild animals called "Katarns", Yup, I think I remember reading somewhere than a Wookiee killing a Katarn with its bare hands is some kind of rite of passage thing. There was also a squad or something called the "Katarn Commandos", whose logo had a Katarn beast leaping in front of it, although I don't know if they had any connection with Kyle - I think they were led by some guy called Paige.

Keiran Halcyon
04-22-2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by princessliar
There was also a squad or something called the "Katarn Commandos", whose logo had a Katarn beast leaping in front of it, although I don't know if they had any connection with Kyle - I think they were led by some guy called Paige.


Lieutenenat (i think) Page, he appears in Rebellion PC game

princessliar
04-22-2002, 01:33 PM
Lieutenenat (i think) Page, he appears in Rebellion PC game Yes, that's the one. :)

Wes Janson SMR
04-22-2002, 04:56 PM
Page! I remember that guy. He's from the EU X-Wing series. I think he and his squad came about in Wedge's Gamble. I could be mistaken on that particular book - it's been almost three years since I've read from the series. '-)

SkyW
04-22-2002, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR
Page! I remember that guy. He's from the EU X-Wing series. I think he and his squad came about in Wedge's Gamble. I could be mistaken on that particular book - it's been almost three years since I've read from the series. '-)
True, except he originally appeared in Zahns Thrawn-trilogy

Kataarn
04-22-2002, 08:47 PM
Since we all agree that MotS takes place AFTER JK (which is fairly obivous, because Kyle never knew anything about the Force before JK), then it would be safe to assume that the saber in MotS, is, in fact, the same one used in the latter parts of JK. As we all know, colour continuity doesn't count for much...seeing as how you can replace crystals, tweak hardware / software, or replace colours.

I think I have an interesting theory about this.

First of all, we have to put these events in place:

1) Events in Jedi Knight take place.
2) Events in MotS take place.
3) Events in JO take place.
4) Kyle attends the Jedi Academy (he did, for a short time).

Personally, I think they should go like so:

1) Jedi Knight
2) Kyle attends Academy
3) Events in MotS take place.
4) Jedi Outcast.

I'll explain this theory.

1: In Jedi Knight, Kyle first encounters the Force, and learns to use his first lightsaber. Because of this, and because he's obviously younger in this game, JK comes first. His first lightsaber is destroyed by Boc, and while about to be struck down by Sariss, Yun defends him, and is subsequently killed. Kyle retrieves Yun's saber, and subequently defeats the remaining Dark Jedi.

2: Kyle, after having his first experience with the Force and almost falling to the Dark Side, attends the Jedi Academy on Yavin 4. During this time, he constructs his first light saber, and decides the Academy isn't really for him. He lets Luke hold onto his first saber, and goes off doing stuff.

3: MotS. Because Kyle obviously had to have had TWO sabers, the one in MotS HAS to be Yun's. If Kyle decided to replace the crystals, he would obviously have done so after learning HOW on earth to do it (we all know he wouldn't spend ages sitting around trying to figure out how it works, he'd smash it first). Hence, he replaced the crystals after leaving the Academy, wandering around with his lightsaber doing things. He meets Mara, almost falls to the Dark Side again, and subsequently tosses Yun's saber. Maybe because another brush with the Dark Side was too much for him, maybe because he's sick of using the Force, maybe because he respects Yun too much to soil his saber, who knows.

4: JO. Kyle returns to the Academy for the saber that he built oh-so-long-ago. Blah Blah Blah...

Another, not-so-crazy possibility....

MotS takes place AFTER JO. This might make a whole lot more sense, seeing as how he would have his saber, could replace the crystals, make it orange, meet Mara, and toss the saber again. Dunno though...

Wes Janson SMR
04-22-2002, 10:31 PM
No. A rep from Raven already said that the events go DF, JK, MotS, JO.

And there's one problem with attending the accademy before MotS. If I'm not mistaken, the accademy didn't exist yet. As a matter of fact, the accademy should only be a year or so old in JO.

Kurgan
04-23-2002, 07:25 AM
No. A rep from Raven already said that the events go DF, JK, MotS, JO.

They did? Then that settles that part then.... ; )


PS: Where can I read the quote?

Keiran Halcyon
04-23-2002, 11:27 AM
In the manual says 'after the events of JK and MOTS..' i think

Anyways as we can see in the opening titles, the right chronology is:
DF: before ANH to a little later
JK: just after the Battle of Endor
MOTS: 5 years after JK--> just after 'the last command' so no jedi Academy yet
JO: 8-9 years after JK

Sooo:
DF-JK-MOTS-JO

Territo
04-23-2002, 03:15 PM
The manual says that JK2 takes place whatever years after JK and MOTS

Wes Janson SMR
04-23-2002, 04:46 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan


They did? Then that settles that part then.... ; )


PS: Where can I read the quote?

Don't you read the crap on your own main page? '-)

This is an interview (http://www.jediknightii.net/interview002.shtml) with the script writer to JO. So he's pretty much more than just a "rep" as I said before. And a bit clueless, if I do say so myself... ;-) But here's the quote straight from the interview:

As said by Mike Stemmle, scriptwriter for JO


Several Years Ago: Mysteries of the Sith happens (#23 of 3000 in the ever-expanding "Sith Happens" lame joke series…collect them all!)

A Short Time after That: Kyle drops the Force like a bad habit, and leaves his saber with Luke. The definition of "Short Time" can be stretched as necessary.

Years Pass: Kyle goes back to being a hired gun for the forces of good, with his partner Jan. He acquires, and successfully kicks, an addiction to bantha jerky. His ability to wield the Force atrophies.

Now: Kyle encounters the Jedi Outcast, and reclaims the Force in a fit of rage.

That's a lot of wording to it, but it confirms what the manual says. The only blunder is the real passage of time, which is inconsinstant in some documents. But the chronology of the games are canon, as far as the series is concearned: DF, JK, MotS, JO.

Kurgan
04-23-2002, 05:04 PM
Lol, I try to read everything, but I glossed over that one.
; p

A lot of hilarious answers and "side-step" answers in there, heh.

Thanks for posting!

Q: Why was there another color change to Kyle's lightsaber? He ended Jedi Knight with a yellow blade, and used an orange blade in Mysteries of the Sith. (Which was possibly intended to be the same yellow one.) When did he build/find the blue saber and give it to Luke for safekeeping?

A: There are number of dry, metatextual reasons for the color change, all of which would bore the living bejebus out of y’all, trust me. I’m loathe to give a "canon" explanation for the change, however…particularly when the fan-driven speculation on the topic is far more rational than anything I would dream up.Aw, come on! Don't make me put up with another 3 years of people discussing this saber coloring "error" on the web....

So I guess we can keep debating that one...

Pear
04-23-2002, 10:10 PM
He also says that Morgan was a Jedi and had a lightsabre dispite that never being in the games. In the novels it flat out denies that he was a Jedi, but it does talk about him being Force-sensitive. He decided against becoming a Jedi, though.

Wes Janson SMR
04-23-2002, 11:14 PM
I'll reiterate: this guy is pretty clueless. I wonder where they dug him up. ;-)

Come on, LA! I can write scripts! Pick me out of the gutter!

oninosensi
04-24-2002, 07:19 PM
Ya'll have alot of time on your hands, don'y you?;)

The reasons for the saber colors for Kyle are as follows:

The first one sat in a droid for years, and got moldy, hence green;
The second one was from a man secretly happy, a nice cheery color, hence yellow;
The third shows the cherry blade wearing out, it got darker, just like some bulbs do, hence orange;
And the last one- he is depressed and feeling down, hence blue

Or, maybe, he was feeling smurfy.

Or, maybe, it could have been, just likely-

Human Error on the part of the designers.

princessliar
04-24-2002, 07:40 PM
Or, maybe, he was feeling smurfy. LOL! :D

Kurgan
04-25-2002, 01:49 AM
Maybe Kyle's latest saber was produced by Micro$oft.. it was a BSOD (Blue Saber of Death)

ChrisTheS
04-25-2002, 03:28 AM
Or it could have been made by really sad smurfs working for Microsoft... ok, that's getting out of hand now.

*Graham Chapman voice* All right, stop that, stop that. It's silly.

Wes Janson SMR
04-25-2002, 03:55 PM
I can't help but think that the Blue 'saber was supposed to be "cooler" than another yellow or orange one....

And they leave the "backstory" in the backburner...

SpaceMonkey1315
04-26-2002, 12:56 AM
ive been a fan of this series since Dark Forces came out, but i have yet to find out one thing about kyles lightsaber in JK2...When Jedi knight ends, (and mysteries of the sith ends), kyle has the golden lightsaber that he took from yun when he fought serris in the origional jedi knight. Kyle vowed never to use the force again, turned in his lightsaber, bla bla bla...but if he ended both of the other games with the orange lightsaber, how did he come out with a blue lightsaber that luke was holding for him all this time...there was no record of any sort saying that he made his own saber, or he took someone elses, he just seems to end up with a blue saber...can someone make sense out of this for me??

-SpMonkey §ß

:mob:

Zek
04-26-2002, 01:03 AM
You know, I think you're the first person ever to notice that! Congratulations!

Fett_72
04-26-2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by Zek
You know, I think you're the first person ever to notice that! Congratulations!

Lol, give him a break, search is down last I heard.

I don't know a detailed explanation, but theory was he trained at the Academy for a while after MOTS and as per his training built a new saber.

Or he just built one on his own, who knows.

SPY_jmr1
04-26-2002, 01:08 AM
missed your pills again eh zek?:D


best guess i heard was :all of the devs at raven, all the beta testers, and all the people at LEC, are all colorblind.....:D

SpaceMonkey1315
04-26-2002, 01:12 AM
maybe i should just send a letter to raven and ask them if they were on bad crack or something, cause i sure cant figure it out:D

enDless_Deliriu
04-26-2002, 01:28 AM
I liked the theory that Luke broke Kyle's old one, and couldn't find another yellow crystal to fix it. So he used a blue blade one, and hoped Kyle would just chalk up the color change to memory loss and illegal spice use. :)

d4rth_b0b4
04-26-2002, 01:34 AM
somebody had a theory that luke pawned it for power convertors and replaced it with a old used blue one!

PunishingOne
04-26-2002, 01:35 AM
Originally posted by estarriol
If you want another example then see the Sarlacc chomping on Boba Fett in ROTJ stuffing up Fett's story in Tales of the from the Empire(? I think), and again in ROTJ the extended band sequence stuffing up the story about the Jizzwailers from Tales from the Mos Eisley Cantina.


Actually, the story you're thinking of is "A Barve Like That" from Tales From Jabba's Palace. The Fett story in Tales of the Empire tells about him infiltrating a small Imperial base on a remote planet to capture an Imperial officer who's gone rogue. Very cool story if you dig the "one-man-army" representation of Boba Fett (I do :D ).

-p1

(edit: yeah, this is pretty OT, but this thread seems to have wandered around quite a bit in pages 3&4, so what the heck.)

Wes Janson SMR
04-26-2002, 01:50 AM
Hmm.. About the previous comment about Han "magically" not having binders just after he's frozen in carbonite. Well, if you look closely, an Ugnaught take's 'em off just before Han's lowered for the big freeze.

Call me anal. ;-)

Vestril
04-26-2002, 04:21 AM
I think Luke loses people Lightsabers, but keeps a spare out back, so whenever someone comes for their Saber he's like "Uhmmm....You must complete...a...trial, yeah, a trial to get it." because he's too lazy to go fetch it himself.

EffJi
04-26-2002, 09:40 AM
If you take a look at the saber in Modview you'll notice something.

It's not the same hilt as in JK, its an EP1 looking thing with a red igniter-button. When in JK it was a SW ep4-6 looking thing.

Therefor: It's not the same sabre.


Of course this might only be true because the graphics in JK isn't the same as in JO.

Pseudonym
04-26-2002, 09:59 AM
Here's what it looks like:

http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/pd66838e83f3da175d524d53b1f98d849/fdc7ff28.jpg.orig.jpg
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid19/pa04763b088e9a4b09a9db6dda903384e/fdc7ff26.jpg.orig.jpg

Digital_Ronin
04-26-2002, 11:39 AM
I begin to wonder how many times I will have the opportunity to post this... :D

I made a SP colorcycling script. Download it and choose your SP saber color yourself.

http://www.uni-karlsruhe.de/~uqlt/sabermagic.cfg
Have fun :D

Digital_Ronin
:tied:

D.L.
04-26-2002, 11:42 AM
Ronin, can I edit that script to just have orange or the other cfg file?

I have bind m sabercolor orange at the moment

Digital_Ronin
04-26-2002, 12:27 PM
I have bind m sabercolor orange at the moment

Best thing would be to change the line to:
bind m "obihelpus 1; sabercolor orange; obihelpus 0"
and add it somewhere to the end of your jk2config.cfg file.

Of course you can also add this in my script file, but this way should be easier.

Digital_Ronin
:tied:

SpaceMonkey1315
04-26-2002, 03:44 PM
Originally posted by EffJi
If you take a look at the saber in Modview you'll notice something.

It's not the same hilt as in JK, its an EP1 looking thing with a red igniter-button. When in JK it was a SW ep4-6 looking thing.

Therefor: It's not the same sabre.


Of course this might only be true because the graphics in JK isn't the same as in JO.

thats right too..he has a completly different looking saber, but no where does it ever say that kyle made a new lightsaber...you can tell that they put a lot of work into the lightsaber hilts too, because you can recgnoize lukes handle, and dessann, but i really have no idea how its completly different...if they put that much work on the hilt, you would think they would try to duplicate the handle of yun's saber from the cutscenes, but nothing, they obviously realized they were doing something different, but i guess they just forgot to tell us what it was

Wes Janson SMR
04-26-2002, 04:11 PM
The Dev team fudged it. They all thought having a blue 'saber would be cool, so they wrote it in the design without even doing a backstory.

Same goes for the hilt. Now tell me, if a company is so non-committed to continuity, would they really bother to replicate Yun's original hilt to any degree? Number one, this is a different Development team that did JK and MotS. Number two, no one had even made an attempt to put the attention to detail in the hilts. In JK and MotS, they were just three-sided handles of crap.

The point is, for all we know, it very well could have represented Yun's lightsaber if they did keep the color to yellow or orange. But they didn't. They made it blue. So, we're just supposed to take their word for it that Kyle built his own, without any tangible source of information. Their excuse? It ran the risk of boring us...

I don't give a rat's booty about this part of the continuity. As far as I'm concearned, it's supposed to be Yun's lightsaber, and it's supposed to be gold. I really don't care what Raven has to say about it, because they haven't given me good reason to believe otherwise, other than the "Well...It's blue because we say so. Go make up your own story about it," thing they're pulling on us. So I "fixed" my copy of the game.

Besides, I think gold is cooler than blue any day.

Kurgan
04-26-2002, 04:19 PM
If nobody minds, I'm going to merge this thread with the above posted DF series continuity thread....

EffJi
04-26-2002, 04:20 PM
This is my theory (my new one):

In MOTS Kyle still had Yun's sabre but it was getting old and therefor the color changed. Then after his little trip to the dark side, he switched sabre; because it had belonged to a dark jedi, and he didn't want it to put any influence on him.

And when I said that the hilt didn't look like in JK, I meant in the cutscenes. I think you get a good look at it a few times, and doesn't look like in JO.

Wes Janson SMR
04-26-2002, 04:31 PM
I knew what you meant. You were referring to Yun's lightsaber in the live cinematics.

The Dev team fudged it for JO. ;-)

The_Raptor
04-27-2002, 01:51 AM
lol. like it really matters... A jedi decides on color and can easily customize this when he builds his saber. I assume Kyle could have easily modified his saber at any time to any color he freaking feels like! Plus, the bright blue is neater than the green and way better than yellow anyway! Ofcourse in ANW, the blue sabers looked more like white, but in JK2 it looks pretty!

And this takes place after MoTS...

Wes Janson SMR
04-27-2002, 07:23 AM
Originally posted by The_Raptor
A jedi decides on color and can easily customize this when he builds his saber. I assume Kyle could have easily modified his saber at any time to any color he freaking feels like

Yes, theoretically, Jedi can modify the color whenever they want. But they usually don't. Changing crystals is more troublesome than you might realize. You just can't find a jewel on the ground and plug it in. First, you need to make sure the crystal is of the right chemical makeup to properly sustain an energy feedback loop. Then it has to be cut to precise measurements for the appropriate energy channeling and beam integrity. And then comes the intricate installation and proper alignment.... You get the drift.

It's not something that Jedi do to color-coordinate with wardrobe and season - least of all for whims of "looking cool". Luke just as soon built a brand new lightsaber entirely for his sister (two of them from my knowledge).

Even Mara didn't bother to change her 'saber color when Luke gave it to her at the end of The Last Command. All the way to the New Jedi Order series, I'm told her 'saber is still blue.

No, I don't think Kyle would go through all that trouble just to change Yun's blade color. He just doesn't seem like the type to do such a thing. Go through all that work...and for what? A new blade color? Nope. Kyle would more worry about its reliability than the color. As long as the 'saber does its job, it's fine. It's a weapon. It doesn't need to look pretty. Or so I gather from his character.

For the blue 'saber ploy to work, he'd most likely have built a brand new one from scratch during his attempt to redeem himself and to learn to stay true to the Light Side.

But...The Scriptwriter of the game basically hinted around the idea that the JO team just came up with the idea of Kyle running around with a blue 'saber. Blue was cool. Blue was the color of the season, and the symbolism of "good" was just a must have for this rogue with a chip on his shoulder...

The Dev team blindly and knowingly interrupted the continuity with this color (and hilt) change, and claimed that the back story of his new lightsaber would simply bore people away from the main story. That's bantha sphew if I've ever heard it. And they still don't have any official word about it, other than it's "possible" that Kyle built the new blade.

Yeah, Raven? Well, it's also possible that he knocked out a Jedi with his shoe, poked her do death with a toothpick, [spare us the details please!], and stole her blue lightsaber from her secret hiding place on Dantooine...

I'm all for possibilities, but with something like this, we want tangible explanations, not vague dodges and scapegoats. As far as I'm concerned, for the sake of what I've seen so far in the previous games, he shouldn't have built that lightsaber, nor have gone to see Luke to train. After his brush with the Dark Side, and nearly killing Mara, he pulled his last straw. He went to Luke's new academy not to train, but to give him Yun's lightsaber. Kyle couldn't find the heart to destroy it, because of its nostalgia. Yun had sacrificed his life to save Kyle, essentially giving Kyle his lightsaber. Kyle couldn't destroy it under that pretense.

That's what I believe should have happened, as it makes the most sense - well, to me, anyway. I don't see Kyle training under Luke's wing, or any nonsense like that. He's a mercenary. He's got a job. A life. The Force had nearly killed him, so why bother use it again and risk the lives of his friends? He should have gotten rid of it the second he yielded to Mara.

So...Basically, I don't care what Raven had up their sleeve. They didn't play the hand, so I took matters into my own accord, and fixed their foresights. My blade is yellow - Yun's blade. And as soon as someone designs a similar hilt, I'll be the first to download that puppy. Official word or not, that is what I believe.

Keiran Halcyon
04-27-2002, 09:26 AM
I agree with you

but if i recall it well, yavin's temples were decorated with lightsaber gems, so it would be easy to find one and choose one.

it would have been better if kyle (and the player) had to make a new saber finding parts, and choosing his lightsaber color, or at least a getting a random one.

Maybe the blue saber has to do with the new movies that seem to have only green and blue for the good jedi as the only choices. Mace windu is the only one that will have a purple saber. I hope this is not true and we can see more colors in the movies...

Kurgan
04-29-2002, 10:01 PM
I don't have the link in front of me, but in another thread, somebody posted from a UK PC Gamer interview where Tom Sarris says the reason that Kyle has a blue saber is apparently there's a rule when making Star Wars games (maybe it's been added since JK came out), that in Single Player, they have to adhere to "Star Wars canon" and make the sabers blue/green for good guys (unless you're Mace Windu) and red for bad guys, and in Multiplayer they can have more leway.

So apparently, according to that, Kyles blue saber has nothing to do with the story or "artistic considerations" but rather expediency in the face of LucasFilm IP laws and regulations on the liscense.

So I guess Kyle's saber HAD to be either green or blue under this rule, unless he turned evil, then it had to be red.

I don't know how this applies to MotS, since Kyle had an orange saber, and Mara a purple one, and the bad guys used Orange and Red. Maybe because it was an addon and not an "official game" in the same way as JK?

Then again, we have Jedi Power Battles wherein Mace and Obi-Wan had blue sabers, Qui Gon a green saber, oh wait.. and Adi Gallia (a Light Jedi) had a RED saber, and Plo Koon a gold saber. You could play as any of them in MP. Then there was the secret character (maybe he doesn't count) Ki Adi Mundi who uses a purple one, and Maul with his red (but he's a bad guy).

In JK1, in single player Kyle had a green saber, but you remember he changed to gold before the end on the light path. And the bad guys? Well, out of the seven Dark Jedi, only two used red sabers! We had the "non-canonical" colors of gold (Yun), orange (Gorce, Pic), purple (Boc), and of course we had the evil Sariss using blue (good guy color, according to the movies).

So, maybe we'd need more clarification on that. So I guess I feel kind of justified in using orange in JK2, as that still makes the most sense to me.

Again, going back to the story ideas, the "crystal dying out" idea sounds interesting, but again we run into the problem of why did Kyle bother building a new lightsaber for himself only to give it up almost immediately (without being used) to Luke? Did he forsee himself needing it again, and he wanted to put himself at Luke's "mercy" so to speak? But then if he knew how to build Lightsabers, he wouldn't necessarily have to go to Luke, he could build one on his own. Maybe he wanted guidance, but also wanted an out so he wouldn't have to hurt his ego?

You know.. "just in case." Still, he seems utterly revolted and ashamed of the Force in JK2, until fate steps in and makes him take a stand. I figure he wouldn't just build another saber so casually, after he'd basically already made up his mind that he was a failure as a Jedi (after MotS).

Actually I think it would be REALLY COOL if George Lucas just included a scene in the new film where some kid comes up to Mace Windu and says "hey Mister, how comes ya got a purple laser sword, and yur th' only one??"

And he just smiles and points to the "color change" nob on the hilt of his blade.. gives it a spin (so that his blade changes a rainbow of pretty colors) and the kids all go "wooooooooooooow"

(And the fanboys in the audience imitate Ewan McGregor and yell "Nooooooooooooooooooooo!")

Incidentally, what DID happen to Yun's lightsaber? It's possible he buried it in the Valley of the Jedi, maybe with Yun's body (out of reverence for him). Or burned or however he did it (I doubt Yun disapeared right away, and he wouldn't just leave the guy's body to rot).

If he kept Yun's saber, he had the Orange one he obviously built for himself in MotS. Notice Luke calls it YOUR Lightsaber, not "Yun's saber" or "the one you found" or something like that.

If anything, he should have given THAT lightsaber to Luke. Otherwise wouldn't Luke suggest that Kyle build a new one, as part of his training? If he gave up Yun's out of respect, it would make sense, as a Jedi, he'd still need a weapon, so he'd build the orange one. He had contact with Luke before (Luke, according to the Radio Dramas, put the saber together using old books and spare parts at Ben's abandoned hut on Tatooine) and would have access to the knowledge, I would think.

And anyway, if he still had it, and it would be a temptation to use, he'd have to give him BOTH sabers, or in a pinch, he wouldn't have to go to Luke, but could just use Yun's, even if his "giving over his lightsaber" was just a symbolic gesture (then again, it had to be, if he could simply build another one, with or without Luke's guidance). I figure he must have wanted that help. After all, the Remnant were able to mass produce lightsabers, for crying out loud, the parts can't be THAT hard to find!

Smeagle
05-01-2002, 01:12 AM
HuH?

DarthCobra
05-01-2002, 07:25 AM
Well I dont know if it was the cheats I used in JK. But after playin outcast and gettin into the storyline.. I went back and zipped thru JK quick using cheats and what not.. But at the end of the game .... Kyle was the emporer.

Keiran Halcyon
05-01-2002, 05:05 PM
Originally posted by DarthCobra
Well I dont know if it was the cheats I used in JK. But after playin outcast and gettin into the storyline.. I went back and zipped thru JK quick using cheats and what not.. But at the end of the game .... Kyle was the emporer.


:D there are two endings in JK, one good and one evil.

Anyways, why they want to stuck the games with 'canon' things if then, they dont' count games and even books as 'canon'? That 's bad :(

I think yellow and orange was the same, Yun's saber, but they changued it because they thought it was coolre or wanted to give the player a new color (but still similar to yellow) to play. And about mara's purple saber... no comments :P
then in JKO, they give us a blue saber. The next game will have a new color? the only ones left are red and dark red :D

Kurgan
05-01-2002, 05:06 PM
HuH?

THAT, is why you fail... ; )

If Kyle was the Emperor, you got the Darkside ending. All of the games after JK assume Kyle took the "light path."

Kreuzader
05-01-2002, 07:51 PM
Not really a spoiler since it's blatantly in the commercials:

There's a new canon color as of Attack of the Clones: Purple. The senior Jedi Council member Mace Windu (played by Samuel L. Jackson) has a purple saber (with a gold-plated hilt no less) and he's, obviously, a light jedi.

The only reason this happened is that Jackson asked Lucas what color his saber would be, and Lucas explained the "blue and green only for good guys" rule. Then Jackson said he wanted purple anyway, so Lucas let him have it.

I guess the color rules aren't as rigid as we thought :)

Oh yeah, the only reason green was added in ROTJ was that blue didn't show up all that well against the sand background during the sarlaac pit battle.

Edit: I'm a dummy, the purple saber was mentioned at least twice in posts above mine. Whoops, sorry. Anyway, there's no canon in-movie explanation for it yet, so feel free to invent your own :D

Wes Janson SMR
05-01-2002, 08:27 PM
I don't buy that color canon stuff, either.

Excuses. ;-)

Digital_Ronin
05-01-2002, 08:45 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
And he just smiles and points to the "color change" nob on the hilt of his blade.. gives it a spin (so that his blade changes a rainbow of pretty colors) and the kids all go "wooooooooooooow"

(And the fanboys in the audience imitate Ewan McGregor and yell "Nooooooooooooooooooooo!")

*ROFL* :D :D :D
That would indeed put a very spectacular and merciless end to all color debates, yes.
Being an SW fan and also very observant when it comes to sabre colors, I still wouldn't mind to see that... just for the hell of it. :D

As for those midichlorians, though... *shivers* :mad:

Digital_Ronin
:tied:

xtmn8r
05-01-2002, 10:03 PM
I've mentioned this somewhere else but will post it here as well.

Lightsabers are very intricate weapons and need constant maintenance. Without regular maintenance the lightsaber will cease to function. If this happens, a Jedi may need to replace the crystal or have to construct a new saber.

Chagning the crystal can change the color. What does this mean for the game?

1) If this was Kyle's saber from JK1 or MOTS that he left with Luke, there is no doubt that by this time it would no longer function. As a result, Luke would've had to change the crystal and hence the color could've changed a a result

2) Maybe Kyle lost his saber long ago. Therefore Luke just gave Kyle a new one.

Now WHO'S lightsaber is it...well...that's for another day :-) One thing is for sure, Luke (or an apprentice) did tinker with it to keep it funtional

Ko'or Oragahn
05-02-2002, 01:37 AM
Xtmn8r, I don't agree at all.
Both movies and the EU have shown lightsabres that lasted for more than a decade.

Wes Janson SMR, Kyle absolutely wanted a lightsabre and was very hurried about that. It's pretty obvious in JO.
If Kyle had buried Yun's lightsabre in the Valley, he could had taken it back with him when he returned to the place where he defeated Jerec years ago.

The reason to explain why he didn't do that was just a matter of respect for the deads and a question of tomb desecration.

I don't see Kyle diging Yun's tomb to stole the lightsabre. No no no.

Now, he used another one with an orange blade in MOTS.

Probably a lightsabre given by Luke or a lightsabre that he found somewhere. We don't know. I'll have to chevk the in game models of the lightsabres that Kyle used in JK and MOTS.

And finally he had a blue one in JO.

Possible explanation : Kyle thought that he would in fact need a few teachings from Luke after his failure with the Force on Dromund Kaas.

Here comes the blue lightsabre which is more symbolic than anything else.

The more he tried to learn things from Luke's teachings at the Academy, the more he got pissed off and sensed the tentation of the dark side.
So he put an end to the lessons and let his new blue lightsabre at the Academy.

I may say that this new one was built by Luke. I suppose that Kyle still doesn't know how to construct a lightsabre.
Look, in JK, he uses two lightsabres that he never built himself.

Keiran Halcyon
05-02-2002, 12:36 PM
I still think that yellow-orange is the same saber.

Kyle, in the end of JK, makes two statues, one for his father and other for rahn. Not for yun. After that he attaches yun's saber in his belt and the game ends. Later, if he buried Yun's corpse, i boubt he leaved that saber in the grave. At that time there was not a jedi academy so he couldnt have made another one*, and he was a jedi, he needed one, and it remembered him yun's sacrifice, he HAD to keep it.


*unless in his father workshop there was in the wall a saber schematics, i dont remember it well...i remember there were remote's schematics...

xtmn8r
05-02-2002, 04:59 PM
I know I'm asking for trouble, but here I go :-)

Lightsaber: Ko'or Oragahn are you referring OB1 giving Luke his father's lightsaber? OB1 didn't have much going on out there and he probably maintained the lightsaber over time. :-) Regarding EU. There may be instances where an unused lightsaber may still "function" but it would not be well tuned. Without regular maintenance, a lightsaber will become less effective and eventually cease to function.

JK1, MOTS, JK2 etc :
The info on StarWars.com is not written chronologically. The events on Dromund Kaas I believe is MOTS. At that point Kyle decides to attend the Academy. Also, I believe the Esential Guide to Characters mentions that (and I'm paraphrasing here) Kyle's brushes with the Dark Side along the way lead him to give the Force up all together. Eventually this leads up to where the game starts out. I think they put the Desann reference where it is just to tie all the VOTJ info together

So:
JK1
Kyle doesn't need training from Academy
MOTS
Kyle decides to go get training
Kyle eventually fears turning to the dark side and puts the Force behind him
Jedi Outcast

Hope this helps...although I'm guessing theyll be even more questions then before :-)

Kurgan
05-02-2002, 05:02 PM
I still think that yellow-orange is the same saber.


I can prove it.. do you want me to post screenshots? Might take me a few days carting them over here on floppy disk... but I can do it.

There's nothing to say that somebody needs the academy to build a lightsaber. Luke and countless Dark Jedi did it without the academy. Luke did it from old books found in Ben's hut on Tatooine. In JK, you don't see it in gameplay, but in the menus you see a book and the parts to a lightsaber. Since Kyle doesn't build one, I assume what we're seeing is either Rahn or Morgan's plans to build a saber. Sound good?

Remember that there are numerous Jedi libraries and Holocrons floating around there after the Jedi Purge, so I'm sure the information was not just written down in one place (in Ben's house). For all we know it's common knowledge, but nobody builds them because only Jedi can be proficient with them in combat. Actually lightsabers may have had important industrial or medical uses for all we know and those plans could simply be modified for combat.

Kurgan

Keiran Halcyon
05-02-2002, 05:39 PM
Well i CAN see differences in colors, i'm just saying that the saber is the same. They changed the color becasue they wanted to or wanted the player be able to use another color, and it is not a radical change as orange to blue, we are talking about yellow to orange.

If you read the manual, they said that Mara Jade has constructed a new saber, so her color change is explained (although it is a lie) but about kyle's they do not say ANYTHING, and if it were new, they would have said it.

As i pointed out, in Morgan workshop maybe there are plans for the lightsaber, but i think he didn't make one. And very little material about the jedi was left, Luke Skywalker has barely found enough things. I do not know if in the New Jedi Order they found more holocrons, but as far as i'm concerned, there was only one in the bantam books, and it was destroyed.

For all we know it's common knowledge, but nobody builds them because only Jedi can be proficient with them in combat. Actually lightsabers may have had important industrial or medical uses for all we know and those plans could simply be modified for combat.

That is from the New Jedi Order too? As far as i know, only jedi can make lightsabers, because they have to use the Force to unite the parts. If it were common knowlegde, why doens't everyone has one? They are very useful items to cut things, and very dangerous. You dont need to be a jedi for that.

Kurgan
05-02-2002, 07:59 PM
I haven't read the New Jedi Order series, but frankly, I think that "needing the force" to "unite the parts" to make a lightsaber sounds like pure BS. Sure I suppose you COULD build a saber using the force to move the parts around, but you could also build it conventionally, and you could do the same thing with a computer.

Maybe the Jedi do have some kind of "rule" about that, but who's going to enforce it? In the Radio Drama (canon after the screenplay, novelisation and film) of ROTJ, we have the scene with Luke building his saber. Nothing about requiring the Force to do anything, although he does use it to help him concentrate (but that's it.. nothing about the creation of the saber itself).

It's a piece of technology, just like a blaster or a hyperdrive. Anyone with the adequate parts, and knowledge, can assemble one.

Or are we now going to assume that Desann and Tavion built all those lightsabers themselves? Think about it!

As to the question of "why doesn't everyone have one?" Well, originally, in Lucas's story, everyone DID, stormtroopers, mercenaries, soldiers, EVERYONE. But then he changed it, to make it the unique weapon of the Jedi/Sith. You can still find the concept sketches/paintings of such use by non-Jedi/Sith on several sites and in several books (Art of Star Wars for example).

But practically, why didn't everyone use them? Perhaps they were expensive to build. Maybe the parts were rare. Maybe it was difficult to do. Or maybe the Jedi had legal controls (copyrights?) over the construction, and so they monopolized them (but in that case it would mean nothing once the Jedi were destroyed). The Sith were able to build lightsabers without Jedi help, and again, we see in JO that non-Jedi are obviously building lightsaber (unless you believe that Tavion and Desann just sat around building lightsabers all day for the Empire).

Maybe lightsabers were BANNED BY LAW after the Jedi purge? That would make having one illegal, like disruptors. So they'd become incredibly rare, with the Empire punishing anyone (like the Jedi) who used them. Vader would get off the hook of course because he was the Emperor's right-hand man, and maybe a few agents on the side (in secret of course). It's kind of like chemical-biological weapons are today. Just about everybody agrees that they won't use them, or build them, but in secret, they build them anyway "Just in case."

The other thing could be the perception of the Jedi as evil (the Emperor's propaganda) making owning the weapon something that was shameful and taboo. Like how it is with the swastika or Confederate Battle Flag in parts of the United States. If everybody is going to think you're a freak for displaying it, a lot of people won't do it.

Could be that perhaps there is a certain attitude that the Jedi were primitive and superstitious, so lightsabers are seen as outdated and obsolete (in favor of blasters, like Han Solo's comments). So snobbery makes them fall out of favor. After all, if nobody thinks they're good, nobody is going to buy them.

So there could be lots of reasons. I'm betting that there is some book out there in the EU saying how a Jedi must infuse his special crystal with the living force or some other magic-tech BS excuse, but until I see that, I think this is a perfectly legitimate point. And again.. what about JO?

Kurgan
05-02-2002, 08:08 PM
If you read the manual, they said that Mara Jade has constructed a new saber, so her color change is explained (although it is a lie) but about kyle's they do not say ANYTHING, and if it were new, they would have said it.


But they didn't have to SAY it, anyone can SEE It for themselves.

End of JK: Saber yellow.

MotS: Saber orange.

You can look at them in JK and compare, Mots and compare, and JO and compare. All of the yellow sabers look distinct from the orange sabers. They are NOT easily confused (unless you have some color blindness issues, and if so, I apologize).

So was Mara's purple saber in MOTS a "lie" in the same way that Kyle's blue saber in JK2 was?

Wes Janson SMR
05-02-2002, 08:49 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
So was Mara's purple saber in MOTS a "lie" in the same way that Kyle's blue saber in JK2 was?

That's exactly what I belive...I think. Mara never built herself a lightsaber in the EU series. Or if she did, she never had it handy - until Luke gave her his father's.

And I always assumed Kyle was using Yun's lightsaber during MotS.

And I still believe that he should be using Yun's 'saber for JO. Notice the operative word "should".

I never understood why these devs can't even put in a decent backstory behind all of these changes. Sure, there are a lot of gamers out there who couldn't care less. But there are too many who do care.

Keiran Halcyon
05-03-2002, 09:40 AM
In 'I, Jedi' novel they say that the electronics in the saber must be assembled with the Force, not my fault.

I can see colors very well as i said before. I'm just saying that i assumed (as wes janson) that the saber was yun's

And about mara purple one, if they do not explain it, people could assume that it was luke's because the hilt is similar and yun's was darkened to in the game. And the poster from TPM had obi wan with a blue saber , but it seemed purple.

Star ReaVeR
05-03-2002, 01:42 PM
If there's green,purple and blue there has to be more colours for evil jedi no?

Kurgan
05-03-2002, 05:39 PM
Well here's the thing, if it's mentioned in "I, Jedi" then it's EU, not SW canon, and so it really doesn't have to apply to anything.

As I said, the only Star Wars evidence we have in the canon for lightsaber assemblage is in the ROTJ radio drama, but in that case the only thing that Luke uses the Force for is to concentrate while he's working. He puts it together with a screwdriver and soldering iron just like a normal person (or the SW universe equivalent tools). ; )

Again, if we follow I, Jedi in JK2 to the letter, we have to assume that Desann and Tavion had to bulid all of those lightsabers that the remnant is using. Or, we could speculate that the remnant spent years and years on this project, and so each Reborn and Shadowtrooper had to build their own lightsaber, and had to be taught by Desann/Tavion how to do it. This would mean they'd need their own evil "Academy" etc. I know it's a game, but in story terms, that's how you'd have to do it. I figured they just got the raw materials they needed, and started up a lightsaber factory. Robots could manufacture the lightsabers needed in plenty of time, and much more efficiently (besides, you have standardization and its much cheaper to mass produce things than build them each individually). You could have your two Dark Jedi spot check and inspect the sabers afterward to make sure there were no major defects, but in general that would be the smart way to do it.

Or, like I said, you're left with having them sitting down and building a ton of lightsabers all by themselves in their basement, like Luke did.

About the whole lightsaber change thing, all I'm saying is that sure in real life and in game terms and liscensing terms, there's no explanation and doesn't need to be. We just get new saber colors in each game, end of story.

But, if we're going to try to explain it in story terms, we have to assume that Kyle is using a green saber then a gold saber in JK, an orange saber in MotS, and a Blue saber in JK2. And since we have no knowledge of sabers suddenly changing color after a few years, we have to assume that Kyle (or Mara) got those sabers from someplace.

So where did they get them? Did they build them, or did they find them or were they given them somehow? That's all I'm saying.

Right now you can assume that Kyle is really using Yun's gold saber in MotS, ignoring the onscreen orange saber, and assume Mara is using a blue one that belonged to Luke (and before him Anakin) ignoring the purple one. Likewise you can ignore the blue saber in JK2 and pretend it's orange (like I'm doing with cheat codes). But again, in story terms that's equivalent to watching ESB and ROTJ and whenever Vader says that he's Luke's father, you pretend he said "Obi-Wan is your father." ; )

Granted the plot point isn't that important, but it was made a big point in JK2, the whole giving up the lightsaber as symbolic of his giving up the Jedi way, etc.

And since LEC/Raven has really no explanation story-wise, we are speculating on what's the most likely reason he has a blue one?

Maybe somebody needs to write a book about how he had some more adventures after Mots and built a new lightsaber for that, or lost his orange one or something. ; )

Wes Janson SMR
05-04-2002, 12:16 AM
If I got the green light from the SW legal department (or wherever), I could churn out something worth reading.

But why write when it's considered simply "fan-fic" and not "canon"?

'-)

Tzar Sectus
05-04-2002, 09:37 AM
But practically, why didn't everyone use them? Perhaps they were expensive to build. Maybe the parts were rare. Maybe it was difficult to do. Or maybe the Jedi had legal controls (copyrights?) over the construction, and so they monopolized them (but in that case it would mean nothing once the Jedi were destroyed).
Actually, there's a much more reasonable answer to this. What's a better weapon to use conventionally? A blaster is longrange while with a lightsabre you have to get completely close to your opponent to actually be a threat. Generally, blasters are better weapons. You'd have to be insanely good with a lightsabre to use it well in normal firefights.

By the way, it's nice to see someone else who believes the lightsabre is just a piece of technology... I really don't like what all these books suggest about the connection between lightsabres and the Force.

-Remi

Keiran Halcyon
05-04-2002, 09:40 AM
Again, if we follow I, Jedi in JK2 to the letter, we have to assume that Desann and Tavion had to bulid all of those lightsabers that the remnant is using. Or, we could speculate that the remnant spent years and years on this project, and so each Reborn and Shadowtrooper had to build their own lightsaber, and had to be taught by Desann/Tavion how to do it. This would mean they'd need their own evil "Academy" etc.


The Reborn are from Empire Reborn? Then, they had a Dark Academy and lots of dark jedi. In I, Jedi Corran Horn builds a saber in two-three days, and in his grandfather diary was told a thechnique to do one in one day. Remember that the Sith spent a millenium to reveal themselves, Empire reborn can wait a little.

.About the whole lightsaber change thing, all I'm saying is that sure in real life and in game terms and liscensing terms, there's no explanation and doesn't need to be. We just get new saber colors in each game, end of story.

That is what i've been saying. But then, they could have gave Mara her blue one since we had never used one until JKO...

So where did they get them? Did they build them, or did they find them or were they given them somehow? That's all I'm saying.

At least we know Mara built hers, as lame it can be...:mad:

Right now you can assume that Kyle is really using Yun's gold saber in MotS, ignoring the onscreen orange saber, and assume Mara is using a blue one that belonged to Luke (and before him Anakin) ignoring the purple one. Likewise you can ignore the blue saber in JK2 and pretend it's orange (like I'm doing with cheat codes). But again, in story terms that's equivalent to watching ESB and ROTJ and whenever Vader says that he's Luke's father, you pretend he said "Obi-Wan is your father." ; )

That is what i'm doing, Using SBX you can also have Yun's and Anakin's hilt :)
But it is not like pretenmding Darth Vader isnt' luke's father, Orange is very near to yellow and blue to purple.

Maybe somebody needs to write a book about how he had some more adventures after Mots and built a new lightsaber for that, or lost his orange one or something. ; )

That would be cool. But Mara's Saber cannot be explained, sice she still uses it. And have been using in every book.

Celchu
05-04-2002, 11:28 PM
I mean in the Jedi Knight game he had a green lightsaber, then if he choose the light side you use yun's light saber all the way through MotS. So when did he get the blue saber?:fett:

TNode
05-04-2002, 11:51 PM
The devs screwed up. How on earth they managed that is beyond me.

Pear
05-04-2002, 11:55 PM
I asked Kenn Hoekstra about it, and he speculates that the sabre he finds in the Academy is just a new one, and assumedly has no connection with the past sabre(s) he's used.

Bl4de
05-04-2002, 11:55 PM
I dunno, maybe he created his own after MOTS considering you have to make your own to become a Jedi, but I dunno cause after MOTS I thought he gave his saber to Luke? There's no way anyone messed it up, they probably have a reason behind it.

*Darth Vega*
05-05-2002, 12:23 AM
Maybe Luke couldnt remember what color Kyle's lightsaber was so he just grabbed one out of a box?:p

Etz
05-05-2002, 12:27 AM
I think someone mentioned in an interview that in single player they had to follow the SW canon as far as they could. That means only color choices were blue and green. There have been many threads about this same subject, some of them long and giving much indepth specualtion (but only speculation) why the color of the saber is what it is. How ever I haven't seen any real proof for either way yet.

Madcow
05-05-2002, 12:51 AM
the saber IS the right color, kyle just went colorblind in his old age

enDless_Deliriu
05-05-2002, 01:30 AM
I still say Luke was goofing around with it, broke it, and had to replace the focusing crystal!

ShadowCell
05-05-2002, 01:31 AM
Maybe Luke was tempted by the Dark Side, and decided to break Kyle's lightsaber, but all he did was change the color because he forgot what he was doing. *sigh* Too many funny Star Wars drinks will do that to you I guess...

Mobius47
05-05-2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by enDless_Deliriu
I still say Luke was goofing around with it, broke it, and had to replace the focusing crystal!

ROFL!!!
http://users.telenet.be/eforum/emoticons4u/comp/comp11.gif

Ko'or Oragahn
05-05-2002, 08:42 PM
That is what i'm doing, Using SBX you can also have Yun's and Anakin's hilt
But it is not like pretenmding Darth Vader isnt' luke's father, Orange is very near to yellow and blue to purple.

Nice but unsuited. What you're doing is like if you had a comic book and used a color pencil to change the blade's color of an unpleasant lightsabre.

MOTS Kyle's lightsabre had an orange blade, end of debate. Don't try to stretch and transform the facts and the truth.


Then, about Mara lightsabre's, there has been other EU sources, earlier to MOTS, that gave Mara a purple bladed lightsabre if I can remember it.

Kurgan
05-05-2002, 11:52 PM
You'd have to be insanely good with a lightsabre to use it well in normal firefights.

By the way, it's nice to see someone else who believes the lightsabre is just a piece of technology... I really don't like what all these books suggest about the connection between lightsabres and the Force.


Here, here!

Likewise, a sword is just a hunk of wood and metal. There's no "mystical energy field" built into it. Sure there might be a "flow experience" that the user has through familiarity and self hypnosis or meditation, but you could apply the same feeling to a lot of objects. Give your "soul sword" to somebody else and they won't notice a thing, just what they put into it.

Unless you believe it's "magic" and then, in theory, wouldn't a lightsaber make you a jedi, and not the other way around?

Kurgan
05-06-2002, 12:06 AM
The Reborn are from Empire Reborn? Then, they had a Dark Academy and lots of dark jedi. In I, Jedi Corran Horn builds a saber in two-three days, and in his grandfather diary was told a thechnique to do one in one day. Remember that the Sith spent a millenium to reveal themselves, Empire reborn can wait a little.


We don't know that. They call themselves the "Imperial Remnant" or at least that's what they are called by the New Republic. If they had this "dark academy" why didn't the New Republic know about it or try to stop it? Why did this dark academy only send a few of their reborn, if they had hundreds or thousands more troops? That would be like sending one tank when you had 100!

Still, you have armies of Reborn and Shadowtroopers, so you have only 2 jedi building hundreds or thousands of sabers (since we don't see that many in the game, but we're to assume that the academy had to fight more and many more died in the ship).

If you assume that only Jedi can build lightsabers, you have a problem. Again, you can't let anyone but those two dark jedi build them, because remember the others aren't trained yet, unless you want to wait years and years.


That is what i've been saying. But then, they could have gave Mara her blue one since we had never used one until JKO...


The purple one seems fine to me. She had the blue one, and she built a purple one, and used that one with Kyle. That doesn't mean she couldn't still use the blue one if she wanted to. But they have taken publicity pics of Mara with the purple one (that one model).




At least we know Mara built hers, as lame it can be...


We could logically assume that Kyle's was either built by him, given to him, or he found it. Right? I figured he just built it, same as Mara. But that's just a guess...



That is what i'm doing, Using SBX you can also have Yun's and Anakin's hilt
But it is not like pretenmding Darth Vader isnt' luke's father, Orange is very near to yellow and blue to purple.


It's too big of a stretch. Green is very near to red, after all.
; )



That would be cool. But Mara's Saber cannot be explained, sice she still uses it. And have been using in every book.

It just means she still uses it. If you have two guns, you can still use your first one, right? Who says a Jedi can only have one lightsaber at a time (only one there is, no more, no less, as Yoda tells us in Episode III, j/k). Maybe that's our solution. Kyle had a blue saber all along with his orange one, and Yun's saber. He sold the other two on ebay and gave the blue one to Luke!
; )

yoda_alex
05-06-2002, 09:25 AM
The answer to this is somewhere on starwars.com

Basically, after Kyle killed jerec, luke asked kyle to join the jedi acadamy but he refused. Kyle then took on mara jade. After thew evens on Dromund Kass, kyle joined luke's acadamy and built a blue sabre as part of his training. However, he was still troubled by his failiure on dromund kass and left the acadamy. He stoped using the force and became a mercenary again. This is where the story is at the start of jedi outcast.

Borf
05-06-2002, 01:15 PM
so... fellas, whats this thread about? i'm too bloody lazy to read though 6 pages of absolute crap.

someone wanna sum the whole thing up for me?

Keiran Halcyon
05-06-2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Borf
so... fellas, whats this thread about? i'm too bloody lazy to read though 6 pages of absolute crap.

someone wanna sum the whole thing up for me?

Not for you :mad: you called it ABSOLUTE crap :p

Keiran Halcyon
05-06-2002, 03:26 PM
We don't know that. They call themselves the "Imperial Remnant" or at least that's what they are called by the New Republic. If they had this "dark academy" why didn't the New Republic know about it or try to stop it? Why did this dark academy only send a few of their reborn, if they had hundreds or thousands more troops? That would be like sending one tank when you had 100!

The academy was not discovered yet. The Reborn are (at least in the books) trained. The do not use the force in the game? So they could have made their own sabers.

The purple one seems fine to me. She had the blue one, and she built a purple one, and used that one with Kyle. That doesn't mean she couldn't still use the blue one if she wanted to. But they have taken publicity pics of Mara with the purple one (that one model).

Well mara says in Specter fo the past that she feel more comfortable with luke's saber than with anakin's because she was closest to luke. In other novel or this one they say that a jedi feels better with his own-made lightsaber and uses it better, although he can use one from another person. So if Mara had built one, she should use it for good. Mara had one purple or crimsom when she was the emperor's hand, that's where the pics with the model come from.
If a jedi had two sabers he should use them in his/her advantage, i mean use both of them as boc-anakin.

JEDI OUTCAST
05-06-2002, 04:07 PM
green and blue are the light side red is the dark side


stop going on about the lightsaber as long as the game is good it does me do you see me going on about the lightsaber no i do not so stop going on about it and have fun with the game

xtmn8r
05-06-2002, 05:47 PM
I've mentioned this is a few places but will mention it here too.

It is not mentioned in the game whether the one Luke gives Kyle is Kyle's old one or if it is a new lightsaber. Yes, it is yet another NEW color but that doesn't necessarily mean it is a new lightsaber.

Lightsabers need to be maintained. Without regular maintenance the lightsaber may cease to function. If this happens, a Jedi may need to replace the crystal or have to construct a new lightsaber.

It is possible that Kyle's old lightsaber either needed a new crystal and Luke decided to give him one that made his lightsaber blue OR Luke built him a new one.

So which is it, Kyle's old one or a new one? Well, you'll just have to trust your feelings! :-)

Kurgan
05-06-2002, 05:55 PM
Some strange guys in suites and badges with the letters "LEC" and a strange logo on it approached Kyle, and put it into his hands, with the words "Our boss says you have to use this"

and before Kyle could ask them what was going on, they were gone, and with them, his former Orange lightsaber.

THAT is how it happened.....

Kurgan
05-06-2002, 06:20 PM
Okay, a couple of things:

Maybe when Luke said "find your saber" he meant as if you were going to the store to find "your" saber (ie: pick out the one that you're going to buy).

The blue one was a new saber, that Luke built, specifically for Kyle, since he hoped that one day Kyle would return to the Light path.

I'm guessing that Kyle left Yun's saber in the Valley, and the orange saber on Dromuund Kaas.

Thus he had no saber until he met Luke again, and that one was a new one he'd never used before. Perhaps he had used it once or twice while at the Academy.

This theory would assume the only saber he built was the orange one, which he either destroyed or left in the Sith Temple because he wanted to leave that part of his past behind (his temptation to the Dark Side).

yoda alex's theory actually makes sense, simple yet effective. ; )

The academy was not discovered yet. The Reborn are (at least in the books) trained. The do not use the force in the game? So they could have made their own sabers.


Again, if they had it at their disposal, they would have used it, right? Were they that stupid? It's like you're in a battle and you have a gun full of ammo you refuse to use. That is, unless you're saying it was ANOTHER Imperial faction that had the Academy, but then I doubt they would send anyone anyway.

If the Reborn made their own sabers, then of course we'd have to assume that this mass-dark jedi training program took years, with only two teachers (Desann and Tavion) doing all the work. I got the distinct impression that this was a FAST, mass-scale operation in the game, but I could be wrong....

Maybe they just popped a few Force Crystals into the backs of the factory robots, and produced the sabers that way. Reduced the process to an assembly line formula? ; )

Or, perhaps Kyle had been indulging in a regular diet of Spice Melange, thus turning his saber pure blue.

SpaceMonkey1315
05-06-2002, 06:46 PM
Originally posted by JEDI OUTCAST
green and blue are the light side red is the dark side


stop going on about the lightsaber as long as the game is good it does me do you see me going on about the lightsaber no i do not so stop going on about it and have fun with the game

Right, wonderfully put, small details dont matter...i'm sure only half the people would notice if kyle was black and named kevin, jan was a manwhore, lightsabers were called lightshanks, and the game refused to act on any of the other smaller details of the game. good idea

Space Monkey§ß

:mob:

yoda_alex
05-06-2002, 07:14 PM
Obi wan uses a blue sabre in AotC so blue doesn't equal learner

Borf
05-06-2002, 10:10 PM
right :(

Keiran Halcyon
05-07-2002, 11:21 AM
If the Reborn made their own sabers, then of course we'd have to assume that this mass-dark jedi training program took years, with only two teachers (Desann and Tavion) doing all the work. I got the distinct impression that this was a FAST, mass-scale operation in the game, but I could be wrong....

There was somekind of council of lords about 10 or more. The leader was trained by Vader himself. I think all were ex-imperial inquisitors.

Read 'The Crystal Star' for more information ;)

AcceptableRisk
05-07-2002, 11:34 AM
Okay, I'm a long time lurker, but reading through this thread made me register and post a few thoughts. :)

1.) Who cares why it is this colour? This is a really minor thing. Do you think all of Kyle's adventures were documented? It might have died soon after Kyle's battle with Jerec. It might have been buried with Yun. It may have been passed on to an apprentice. Who knows?

Raven probably made it blue because that's what the uber l33t jedi's use. Most powerful jedi in the galaxy and you're using some ugly yellow saber? No thanks.

I've played the game through and from the looks of it, it's not a new saber that Luke gave to Kyle. From the cutscene before the NS level and the last cutscene, it sounds like Kyle gave it to Luke for safekeeping, it's definetly not a new one.

2.) Secondly, not everyone uses lightsabers because it's an exceptionally hard weapon to handle. Think about it...one wrong move and you've cut your own foot off. Using a lightsaber goes well with the Jedi reactions. In the hand of anything less than a jedi, it would be a quick way to be killed, either by your own hand or simply from not being able to block blaster fire.

3.) I seriously doubt that Desann and Tavion made all those sabers. You don't need the force to design a saber...? Possibly one of them pre-recorded a training session with all the esentials, like how to use the various force disciplines and how to make your own saber. Or they were mass produced. Tavion and or Desann probably just oversaw the training.

Borf
05-07-2002, 12:48 PM
got wang

Keiran Halcyon
05-07-2002, 05:17 PM
Raven probably made it blue because that's what the uber l33t jedi's use. Most powerful jedi in the galaxy and you're using some ugly yellow saber? No thanks.

:p Since when Kyle is one of the most powerful jedi in the Galaxy?
He loses his powers very quickly: a little in MOTS and Full in JKO.

Kurgan
05-07-2002, 07:29 PM
Actually Kyle is probably more of a mid-level Jedi in terms of "power."

My theory about the loss of powers between JK1 light-side ending and MotS was that his connection to the valley augmented his powers (this has precedents in the EU.. note Kyp Durron and Exar Kun in the Jedi Academy Trilogy, and Mara Jade and the Emperor in Zahn's first trilogy). As he moved toward the Valley, his powers increased EXPONENTIALLY, far more than his training time. This made him much more powerful than somebody like Luke, but as he went away from the Valley, his powers receded back.

So what you see at the beginning of MotS is Kyle's "true" power level. Notice again, he becomes far more powerful in the Sith temple, probably due to his drawing on the power that seeks to corrupt him. Of course the Valley's power was much greater either way. He wasn't able to draw on all of the power (obviously, since it was so chaotic, and Jerec had some of it).

After MotS, Kyle's cessesation from the Force is a conscious choice. It's like suppressing it with a psychological block. Apparently his father may have done something similar to this to hide from the Empire. Kyle's visit to the valley allowed him to break the mental block and the rest was just his being "rusty" after years of not using it.


1.) Who cares why it is this colour? This is a really minor thing. Do you think all of Kyle's adventures were documented? It might have died soon after Kyle's battle with Jerec. It might have been buried with Yun. It may have been passed on to an apprentice. Who knows?


Obviously, 99.9% of the people who took the time to respond to this thread cared. It's just a big change. Lucas cares about Saber color, obviously, and so do a lot of fans, it's a thing. It's not the only thing, but it's a drastic enough change that it either points to a glaring error, or indicates a story change we weren't previously aware of. Here it may have been a liscensing change, but it still leaves a gap in the story. Kyle has had four sabers, following his adventures current with JK2. We only know the "true" origin of two of them (green and gold). We've been speculating where the latter two (orange and blue) came from.


Raven probably made it blue because that's what the uber l33t jedi's use. Most powerful jedi in the galaxy and you're using some ugly yellow saber? No thanks.

Are you forgetting Qui Gon Jinn? How about Luke Skywalker? Or Vader? Heck, a ton of powerful force users, good and bad do not use the vanilla blue saber. ; p

I've played the game through and from the looks of it, it's not a new saber that Luke gave to Kyle. From the cutscene before the NS level and the last cutscene, it sounds like Kyle gave it to Luke for safekeeping, it's definetly not a new one.

Unless my theory about the "pick out your saber" interpretation of Luke's line is plausible. But then, it doesn't answer what happened to those other sabers. Kyle could have built his own saber if he just wanted to go after Desann, he just needed a reason to see Luke again and get his advice. So perhaps he had a rack of sabers at home still. But... he should have give something to Luke, to justify the trip right? And we still don't know how he got a blue one or what he gave to Luke.. etc.

2.) Secondly, not everyone uses lightsabers because it's an exceptionally hard weapon to handle.Think about it...one wrong move and you've cut your own foot off. Using a lightsaber goes well with the Jedi reactions. In the hand of anything less than a jedi, it would be a quick way to be killed, either by your own hand or simply from not being able to block blaster fire.


Or, if you're Han Solo. ; )


3.) I seriously doubt that Desann and Tavion made all those sabers. You don't need the force to design a saber...? Possibly one of them pre-recorded a training session with all the esentials, like how to use the various force disciplines and how to make your own saber. Or they were mass produced. Tavion and or Desann probably just oversaw the training.

I am going with the mass-production idea, since it's the only one that makes sense to me. Otherwise you are either forced to make the "reborn/shadowtrooper" campaign last for years (perhaps even decades) without the Republic knowing about it or else buy into the BS "magic-tech" excuse with regards to saber production (in which case I think putting force crystals into droids to build the sabers in a factory is JUST as plausible).

Pear
05-07-2002, 08:44 PM
Kenn Hoekstra told me in an email he believes the sabre Kyle gets from going through the trial area at the Academy is a new one, and I assume he means it has no connection to his previous sabres. He says he went to the Academy to get his own sabre, but got a new one instead.

So from that I think we can assume that Kyle left Yun's yellow sabre on Ruusan and that he built the orange one after JK, and left it on Dromuund Kaas after falling to the dark side, and then went to Luke in JK2 to get any sabre, as quickly as possible, since he was in quite a rush.

About Morgan being a Jedi or not..(since he appears in an astral form to Kyle in JK2) I'll quote what he said directly:

"..Perhaps the emotional bond between Kyle, who is a Jedi, and his father, who is Force sensitive, is enough for Morgan to appear in Astral form. If you recall, only Ben Kenobi’s voice came to Luke in Star Wars, but once he was more prepared/trained, he saw Ben in his astral form."

Now he made it clear that he was just guessing from the information available to him, but being the Project Admin on JK2 (As stated in the manual...) makes his word have a little more weight than anything you or I could have to say.

Kurgan
05-07-2002, 11:23 PM
I'd say so. The only people who'd have the final say (other than somebody like George Lucas, because he owns Star Wars, even though he has nothing to do with making the games anymore), would be the actual story editors/writers for JK2.

Borf
05-07-2002, 11:25 PM
i agree

Kurgan
05-07-2002, 11:27 PM
Can't wait to stop being 'Bantha Fodder,' eh Borf? ; )

Borf
05-08-2002, 04:46 AM
what? i'm bantha fodder? looks like pit droid to me :D

if only we could all be forum junkies like you, kurgan!