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Ascari
04-09-2002, 07:00 PM
I wrote an e-mail to ravensoft and got a response (within the hour no less!)
plz note that this is NOT an official standpoint from RavenSoft.



E-mail:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello,

first let me gongratulate u ( and the rest of your team ) on this great game. I really have a blast playing it !


Well, I suspect your a busy man so i'll get to the point:
I dont know if u keep track of the LucasForums (www.lucasforums.com) but me
(and many others) have a few comments about the MultiPlayer section of Jedi
Knight 2.


First off, plz plz plz plz fix the Multiplayer dismemberment! It totally
rocks but it makes the server unstable.
Further more we have the guns vs. sabers problem.
Most of the Jedi Knight 2 players want to weild there sabers and kick some
ass. But certain guns are just a tad too powerfull. For instance the
repeater's alternative fire is hard to avoid as a saberer.


A lot of people think that people who use guns are more powerfull then the
saberers, which is true. Because someone who is using guns doesnt putt the
force points in the Saber skills and can but the points in other forces.
Which gives the gunner a huch advantage over a saberer.
Maybe a solution would be to have some sort of lower force power, or no
force recharge when weilding a gun. Or make a gunnery points sytem like the
sabering point system.


I also dont find it realistic that a person carrieng a big gun can walk as
fast as someone carrieng a light saber. Maybe if someone is carrieng a gun
hi's walk speed should be reduced, this would be realistic.



Also I noticed that a lot of people are complaining about the drain skill of

the dark Jedi. People say it's a bit overpowered. ( I have no idea because
when I see a dark jedi using this power I turn absorb on.)


I almost forgot this one: When I'm in a saber duel and I turn my saber off,
nothing happens. I just keep on pushing which is a little bit weird :) Not a

big detail, but realisticly when I put my faser of I should fall back the
same way as when I loose a duel.



Well that's it for now, if I notice something else I'll be sure to let u
know.



Your sincerily,



Paul "Ascari" Rispens
The Netherlands
ps. Excuse me for the bad grammar/typo's.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


E-Mail from Ravensoft:

Well, we haven't 100% decided on what, exactly, we are and aren't going to
try to do in any patch... and we don't have a timeline on it, yet, so I
haven't said anything about it until it's more set in stone.

Now, specifically, some of the things you mention aren't bugs, they're
problems people are having because they're using unsupported features that
they weren't supposed to use (like dismemberment in MP).

I do agree that sabers feel to weak against guns, I'm pushing for a game
modifier that makes it so you have to play as either a Jedi (saberonly &
force powers, no guns or pick-ups) or non-Jedi (guns only and pick-ups, no
saber or force powers). I think that would go a long way towards balancing
those kinds of integrated games.

And, I agree, that big guns should slow you down and that you should run
slower when running backwards.

We also plan on tweaking the force drain, force grip and force heal powers.

And the turning your saber off in a saberlock is a bug that was fixed in SP,
but never fixed in MP, that will be addressed.

Thanks for your e-mail, it confirms for me that we have been listening to
all the right feedback from players and that we're on the same wavelength as
them when it comes to changes we may make in a patch.

Michael Chang Gummelt
Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II
Raven Software
www.ravensoft.com

GreyJedi
04-09-2002, 07:06 PM
Nice job bringing some legitimate concerns to our friends at Raven Software. Good to know they are considering the points brought up in the forums.

Being Dutch, your grammer/spelling is excellent - better than many native to the English tongue.

Thanks for sharing the information.

Mattman
04-09-2002, 07:08 PM
SWEET! I'm glad to hear both, that they are listening, and that they are considering these things. Beyond that, we'll have to trust Raven to bring balance to the force (oh, wait, the last time that happened, it ended in a mass jedi purge...hmmm. ;) )

:D

Silent Wolf
04-09-2002, 07:09 PM
*sits back at his office table and puts his hands behind his heads*

how can you not love this company?

:D

XorKaya
04-09-2002, 07:11 PM
thanks for the post... if only you'd mentioned that people want to control what force powers are allowed to be used on a server... ie, neutral only

Mattman
04-09-2002, 07:15 PM
Given that the letter from Raven mentioned things that were not addressed in Ascari's original email, I have little doubt that they have also noticed the requests for force power controls at the server level.

Agen
04-09-2002, 07:15 PM
Actually some of the guns are jsut better than the saber and some aren't, to tell you straiht it's obvious a saber shouldn't be as powerufl as a gunner but saberers always seem to forget they have force and just do nothing about a gunner, pull their dman wepaon if they'reo wning your ass!
Also the people that are ocmplaining about drain are really quite er.;.. dumb :)
I mean they're draining you... oh no!... they're draining me, i'll sit back and jsut wathc, see what happens :) FFS kick his ass!
if your light do absorb if you;re drak give ihm some of his own medicine.

Makkoan
04-09-2002, 07:17 PM
Sweet!:p

Jedi_WilliamKy
04-09-2002, 07:17 PM
I think what he's trying to say is...

"Lets see how much money we rake in on this game before we decide how much time/money we will put back into it"

Or maybe that's not what he said at all....err..

Vanor
04-09-2002, 07:25 PM
Thanks for posting that, it's nice to know they're aware of the balance issues we all are discussing.

Of all the things mentioned, I hope they do the saber/jedi only vs gun/no force mod the most. This type of game would really put a end to the "guns vs saber" debate/flame wars on here.

digl
04-09-2002, 07:27 PM
I think what he's trying to say is...

"Lets see how much money we rake in on this game before we decide how much time/money we will put back into it"

Or maybe that's not what he said at all....err..I don't think so
they'v released things like the linux server, that they had no obligation to do, they reply to emails and post at this forums

Besides, maybe they won't even get more money if there are more sells, it depends on the contract they have with LEC.

Nice to know that they are thinking about the patch already.

n00bieWanKenobi
04-09-2002, 07:31 PM
how bout asking them about a co-op multilplayer missions...i know u guys talked about this before...but this would be badass if we had a co-op just like jedi power battles :D

Ascari
04-09-2002, 07:36 PM
Hmm,

I read somewhere that a modding team is allready working on a co-operative campaign.

digl
04-09-2002, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by n00bieWanKenobi
how bout asking them about a co-op multilplayer missions...i know u guys talked about this before...but this would be badass if we had a co-op just like jedi power battles :D

http://wls.jediknightii.net/games.html
http://modcentral.jediknightii.net/rebelstrike/

Hell Raiser
04-09-2002, 07:54 PM
Bleh, there's a thing called Force Push ya know. :p :)

Anyway, I think that's great, the email, and the fixes and the whatnot. The Saber-Jedi Guns-No Jedi thing had better be a game mode though. Some people like their guns and force and saber ya know. *points at himself* :nut:

Zek
04-09-2002, 08:27 PM
Noooooooooo!!! Not Heal!!

Heal is my saving grace as a light sider. Maybe I won't need it anymore if they fix the dark side more, but I'll have to wait and see. Anyone who can't see that the dark side is overpowered in some aspects needs to have their eyes worked on; sure Absorb counters all of it, but drain still takes off about half your force power before you can turn Absorb on, and if they manage to drain you empty(very easy) then god help you if they have Grip.

If they do put in that new game mode, I seriously hope they still do more to balance the repeater against sabers in all games.

Solo4114
04-09-2002, 08:50 PM
Looks encouraging. I may e-mail them myself, just to reiterate a few concerns and propose some ideas to fix things. Also, I'd be curious to see if they respond back to me as well.

I think slowing down backwards run, and switching the speed depending on the gun you're carrying would definitely help the game's balance some. I know some folks will complain, but honestly, I think that without these changes, it'll remain quake3 with force powers, and not so much a true Star Wars game.

One other idea that'd be cool (but probably impossible to implement) is if you could dismember guns. Yeah, you read that right. I mean someone's charging you with a gun, you pull out a sabre and chop the thing in half. Luke did it to Fett in ROTJ, so why not let us do it? Of course, this would require that the gun model actually have portions that could be separated, and include skins to show the damage, so maybe that's not such a hot idea after all. Oh well. Just a thought.

BlacKnight
04-09-2002, 08:51 PM
pull and push were made specifaclly for the repeater :p well ok maybe not but if you have them it's really not a big problem so long as you're careful. it's tough true but that's the balance of the game. If I could pull any weapon every single time no one would be able to use anything but a saber against me. It just takes a little practice and you're fine. :)

p.s. no I'm not a gun whore if I play for and hour or 2 straight I may fire a gun 5 times. maybe.

Zodiac
04-09-2002, 09:05 PM
With the slowing down while moving backwards or having a big gun: I hope they tweak all the speeds, because you move so slow already! Just increase ur forward running speed and don't increase the moving back speed and u have the same effect.

ok.. anybody got any ideas when this patch will come out? I think it can take a month.. what do u think?

happydan
04-09-2002, 09:06 PM
the SP combat needs to be merged with MP games.
if anyone is going to email, raise this concern. ive noted alot of support for this in reading the patch thread elsewhere.

digl
04-09-2002, 09:13 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
I think slowing down backwards run, and switching the speed depending on the gun you're carrying would definitely help the game's balance some. I know some folks will complain, but honestly, I think that without these changes, it'll remain quake3 with force powers, and not so much a true Star Wars game.

I don't remember those things in DF or JK, the only two SW FPS, so saying it isn't a true SW game without that doesn't make much sense.
It could improve balance though I agree.

ok.. anybody got any ideas when this patch will come out? I think it can take a month.. what do u think? Well, we haven't 100% decided on what, exactly, we are and aren't going to
try to do in any patch... and we don't have a timeline on it, yet, so I
haven't said anything about it until it's more set in stone.
No one has an idea :p

Zodiac
04-09-2002, 09:48 PM
ur right digl, nobody has an idea. I just hope a patch comes out soon :)

Hey.. in JK, running backwards went slower then running forward... and strafe+forward running was even faster then just any other kind of running... I hope they can implement that in JK2, because it gives u so much more control over your character. :) And any kind of extra control would help you to do a move you'd always wanted to do.

Jaif
04-09-2002, 09:58 PM
A mod that limits force powers to saber people will wipe gunners out of contention. All the force powers, including (and maybe especially) jump, kick ass when they aren't opposed.

-Jeff

TheArch
04-09-2002, 10:21 PM
they have that mode now. . .its called jedi master

It is cool to see that the folks at Raven are supporting this thing. And about the force-drain, I dared a friend of mine to turn from the Dark Side for a few duel rounds (he was killing me as a Drain-Grip whore) and playa as a light Jedi. He was quick to admit that the light side IS much MUCH harder to play (I started beating him down when we were both light). So, it stands to reason that drain might be a bit overpowered. I don't mind grip (save for the swirly spinning grippers) because my counter power of absorb actually DOES something. VS Drain all absorb does is slow down your loss of force power to the normal absorb rate. And with my "HEY LOOK AT ME I HAVE ABSORB ON" blue glow, any Darkie knows to just wait a second and that'll end. Then enter the grip/lighting. . . .At least make absorb a truly passive power. Sure it can glow when you TRY to attack me with force (like the shield effect) but other than that, you don't know if I have it running or not.

DannyDiplo
04-09-2002, 10:31 PM
Good to see Raven listening and I do hope they tweak the aspects mentioned in the email, as I think they would go a long way to helping make the game more fun and viable for the future. All good MP games need balance if they are to stay popular, and I think the changes mentioned would certainly help. Good work!

BIGBrother
04-09-2002, 10:48 PM
I'm pushing for a game
modifier that makes it so you have to play as either a Jedi (saberonly &
force powers, no guns or pick-ups) or non-Jedi (guns only and pick-ups, no
saber or force powers).

mmmm, maybe a teamplay, objective based mod with Jedi (no guns, force) versus Imperial (guns, no force).

drool...

RabidPlatypus
04-09-2002, 11:02 PM
seriously, play the jedi master mode and you'll see how badly a person with force whoops people. In jedi master mode when I am jedi all I use is heal, push, pull, jump, and its easy to just own those gunners. I could easily make it so I have those force powers in a new guns vs. saber game mode and there would be no competition.

Emon
04-09-2002, 11:26 PM
That's awesome! I love how Meestar Grummelt actually listens to the players. It's like for once, a company has realized, "Whoa, wait a minute! The fans are the ones who play the game and give us money! We can make like a game FIFTY times better if we listen to them!" I wish LEC had done that, instead of having the, "Fans and customers don't know anything, when do they play the game?" Additude.

In conclusion, Michael Grummelt is god.

lukeboy
04-09-2002, 11:29 PM
The only thing for gun needing to be tweak again is fire rate of reapeater alt fire.
If raven does that you guys mention above,no one will play a gun in JO .
Gunner can't use force 'Gunner can't use saber 'Gunner can't run as fast as saberist 'Gunner can't have any weapon more powful than saber'Gunner's gun can be cut by saber. back speed must be slowed down..............etc

Who wants to play a gun in JO?
JO is a starwars game not meaning that player only can be a jedi with a god damn good saber.

The most problem is saberist can't defend the alt fire of reapeater most time though we can push back the blast ammo of reapeater sometimes, the fire rate makes pushing back hard.

I am light side saberist too,but I can pull the gun off , i can push the rocket back , I am the no.1 in the server i played most time and I always wield my saber.

The only thing I feel unbalanced is alt fire of reapeater and drainwhore with annoying lighting or grip. but I won't get myself stuck in a guy always drain without fighting,I just leave him alone,don't need to commit suiside when my force all drained .
Find others and get my frags.

Concern your skill , and don't compliant about something makes you lose but seems fine to others

Mattman
04-10-2002, 01:05 AM
I do think that if the force is taken away from gunners, there should be something else to compensate. Someone on this boards mentioned a jetpack in another post, I think that'd be a good start. I'd be like force jump, but with an extra element of control, such as slowed falls, and extra steering. Basically, it'd be cool if it worked like the jetpack in Shadows of the Empire. Also maybe a sort of netgun or stungun that'd be similar to force push.

Also, if I read the Raven guy's letter correctly, I believe he said that jedi would have no pickups at all. As in, no health, shields, ect. That'd be pretty balancing in itself, I think.

Zek
04-10-2002, 01:21 AM
I'm split on the gun issue. 2 observations:

1.) The only weapon that is really overpowered is the repeater alternate fire. The projectiles are much too fast to reliably push away, and they fire out in relatively quick succession. There's no good counter to it.

2.) The rest of the guns are fine, except for what seems to be an oversight... Explosives win the FFA games, 9 out of 10 times. No matter how fancy your saber swinging is, someone who throws an explosive or two into every crowd he sees gets the high score and wins. 1 on 1 a saberist can win against most guns, but the only place that happens is in Duel mode, where there aren't guns anyway. As it is, a dedicated saberist will have an extremely hard time reliably winning FFA games, and I don't think that's how it's intended.

lukeboy
04-10-2002, 01:36 AM
Originally posted by Zek
I'm split on the gun issue. 2 observations:

1.) The only weapon that is really overpowered is the repeater alternate fire. The projectiles are much too fast to reliably push away, and they fire out in relatively quick succession. There's no good counter to it.

2.) The rest of the guns are fine, except for what seems to be an oversight... Explosives win the FFA games, 9 out of 10 times. No matter how fancy your saber swinging is, someone who throws an explosive or two into every crowd he sees gets the high score and wins. 1 on 1 a saberist can win against most guns, but the only place that happens is in Duel mode, where there aren't guns anyway. As it is, a dedicated saberist will have an extremely hard time reliably winning FFA games, and I don't think that's how it's intended.

That's what I say...

Sifl
04-10-2002, 02:11 AM
Don't know what you gun-runners are getting so excited about. If you read the Raven guy's reply, the jedi vs. non-jedi thing is a modification, like saberonly. They're not going to permanently change multiplayer to always be that way, that would be stupid.

Necro
04-10-2002, 02:22 AM
thank you ascari for the information and more so to Chang for the reply (and so fast too!!)

n0th1ng
04-10-2002, 05:30 AM
wish they would fix the heavy stance (red sabre mode) as well..too powerful atm not to mention the unblockable special with red mode

Canis_Aureus
04-10-2002, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by Ascari
Well, we haven't 100% decided on what, exactly, we are and aren't going to try to do in any patch...

I do agree that sabers feel to weak against guns, I'm pushing for a game modifier that makes it so you have to play as either a Jedi (saberonly & force powers, no guns or pick-ups) or non-Jedi (guns only and pick-ups, no saber or force powers). I think that would go a long way towards balancing those kinds of integrated games.

And, I agree, that big guns should slow you down and that you should run slower when running backwards.

We also plan on tweaking the force drain, force grip and force heal powers.


Ahhh that is so nice. KEEP PUSHING MICHAEL! This sounds just so damn awesome and is just what I have been hoping they would do... so although this isn't 100% yet - it's still nice :)

A patch with those features would fix the game balance and improve the gameplay so much.

Canis_Aureus
04-10-2002, 06:26 AM
Originally posted by n0th1ng
wish they would fix the heavy stance (red sabre mode) as well..too powerful atm not to mention the unblockable special with red mode

It's not really a problem. That move is easy to avoid and after the attack is finished they will still be vulnarable for a short period where they cannot parry. BUT the unblockable attack should be fixed I agree.

Trienco
04-10-2002, 06:50 AM
unblockable doesnt mean you cant evade it. see heavy stance and he's coming for you DONT just stand there. the only problem i have with it is my connection. sometimes he misses by meters or just started to move and you die (at least sometimes it works the other way round too *g*).

regarding the saber-gunner mod. where's the prob? imagine boba fett instead of stormtroopers and they would have a couple of substitutes. jetpack-jump, flamethrower-lightning, rope-pull (or rope-grip lvl1)... push and pull: limit the range or still give them a few points in push/pull so they can defend against it.

they cant heal, but they can use medpacs, bacta and stuff. also they never have to come close to a jedi while he cant do anything from a mile away. the only concern is that a dozen of boba fett like guys running is around is quite unlikely (but so is a dozen of jedi running around, so who cares).

so i will just hope they do it that way and i wont have to do an obi-wan vs. jango mod *lol*

btw. to whoever wanted to be forward-strafing to be faster then normal movement: thats no feature, just the thing you get if you use a square instead of a circle.
they just forgot that something like:
if fwd {pos.x+=player.speed}
if lft {pos.y+=player.speed}
will cause a movement of sqr(speed*speed+speed*speed) instead of just speed.

today you dont have to worry about a square root more or less so they can do it right. and i think everbody working on a commercial game should be shot for the 'old way' *lol*

Lord Slart
04-10-2002, 08:28 AM
Good news for all. Thanks.

One point I could make is about absorb. I think the best way to deal with this would be to remove the blue shroud when it's on but show it if the force is used on the player. That way you wouldn't know it was there until you used the force on that player and wouldn't know if they turned it off without using more force again. Risk verses reward. Someone already mentioned something similar but I thought I'd expand on it with my thoughts.

Canis_Aureus
04-10-2002, 08:49 AM
Yes I agree Lord Slart... they really need to remove the blue glow when using absorb.

Here's my idea.

- When hit by force effects you will glow blue to show that absorb blocked it... but people will have to actually hit you with force effects before they know if you have absorb on or not.
- Absorb should also give you force power when hit by draín. That would help alot on the drain problem for light jedis.

But to be honest I would rather see that drain actually drained health and the dark jedi used that to heal instead. Perhaps the damage could be weak but bypass any shielding.

D66
04-10-2002, 09:54 AM
/me shakes head in a disapointed fasion

Have we learned Nothing from Tribes 2?

Petition for gameplay changes on a game you enjoy and you just might get them

Remember Tribes 2, So many game play changes to placate the "Disk is too powerfull" "sniper is too powerfull" "Vehicles are too powerfull" People That the game is absolutly boring now...

Rather, Ask Raven to adress the functional issues first.... The game play prefrences can be done with MODs and the Editing comunity would be on the ball If Raven would release the SDK...

What we do need are fixes for the g_forcepowerdisable bug, Dedicated Servers that arn't showing on the masterlist (Lynksys)
The Saber-lock bug (Which was adressed)
and a couple other minor flaws.

On the positive side... The fact that he is even mentioning the creation and distrobution of a Mod by Raven means that they plan to throw Tons of support behind this game... CHEERS to that...

But Beware of the Tribes2 Curse!!!

Kurgan
04-10-2002, 10:26 AM
And though not an official response, I'd like to reiterate that I think the idea of "big guns slowing you down" is actually quite UNrealistic.

Think about it. Kyle carries a dozen heavy weapons, but only when he pulls out a "big" one, he slows down? Strange. I would think that simply HAVING all those weapons would slow him down, not the act of holding one!

At least the email made it clear that the changes he was in favor of would mostly be in the form of OPTIONS.

I'm all in favor of fixing bugs and adding new options, but less enthusiastic about changing the game to make it more "realistic" or "movie-like" (since those are loaded terms anyway, depending on who you talk to). Mysteries of the Sith is a good example of the use of options. There are a variety of game modes, and nobody is forced to play just one way. While balance is pretty good, people still complain, and so they have the option to not use certain things, or play on certain levels that lack certain features they don't like or feel comfortable with.

And I agree with the above poster, some people will never be satisfied (remember all the whining in <fill in the blank FPS> game?). I would rather see quality editing tools/documentation released before a lot of the gameplay "tweaks."

Now one might say it hardly matters what I think, since they are the devs, not me, but then again, if it's really fan feedback they're listening to, well, there you have it. ; )

Admiral Jerrodd
04-10-2002, 10:36 AM
Tribes2 curse? What are you talking about? Sometimes weapons get tweaked for the sole reason to make a game accesable for all.. not a small group who overuse an overpowered weapon all the time.

It's the basic essence of tweaking, listening to the community and implementing the right changes to make it enjoyable and accesable, and not frustrating because an "elite few" screw the gameplay for others.



..And yes, I know bloody well enough things about weapon tweaking and the community input - coming from the dod community.

T-Dogg
04-10-2002, 10:41 AM
Hope they release a patch soon... the SP experience isn't quite perfect either. See my post entitled "Entities error" to see what I mean. It's a real nasty problem, 'cause it prevents me from progessing in the game.

Kurgan
04-10-2002, 10:47 AM
And that's another thing.. about the complaining. The whole "overuse" thing is not a balancing issue per se.

Let's say that its like some people are wishing for.. the saber is the ultimate weapon, and the Jedi is the most powerful character, bar none.

Now we have people overusing sabers and force, to the deteriment of those who wish to use guns and role play gun fighters from Star Wars.

What then?

It's the same problem anyway you look at it. The fact is, if you make something useful, players who wish to win, will use it to their advantage. Now I'm not saying make one weapon so good that nobody will use anything else (then why have other weapons?), just that you can't simply take "overuse" as a reason to remove something. In fact, it may be that people use it because they like it, and changing/removing it may cause people's enjoyment of the game to go down.

It's not the over-users (people keep using the term "whore" which really gets on my nerves, am I a "whore" for using a tactic that people refuse to adapt to?) who need to be punished, by making all of their favorite tactics useless. Again, balancing issues aside, simply making a saber user more powerful than a gun user will not stop the whining, I think you'll just have different people complain. Nobody likes to lose, but then if people try to force everyone to play their way (following their honor code, not using weapons they consider "cheap" etc) then the fun dwindles.

Rather the better way is to provide options to allow people to customize their gameplay experience to an extent, so that the saber-only people can have their fun, and the people who like guns and sabers, can play (incidentally both options are already in the game).

Anyway, somethings to think about. It's up to Raven/LEC. ; )

Ascari
04-10-2002, 11:17 AM
U said that if u adjust the weapons a bit the saber becomes the best weapon in the game?

The way it is now the gun users have a huge advantage over saber users. Balancing this will not make the guns useless.

Personally I like playing in normal FFA games. There is a lot more diversity then in Saber only games.

Zek
04-10-2002, 02:14 PM
Kurgan, if you think weakening the explosive weapons a bit will make everyone use sabers, you are very sorely mistaken. I was very surprised to discover how many people will use the regular blasterfire weapons, even against good saber users; pull their weapons and they'll shoot at you with the bryar. The concept of using the saber just disgusts them, even if they don't have an overpowered gun. It makes me sad every time I crouch down with my saber and get the other person to kill themselves with their repeater or even bryar(has happened a number of times).

Right now, if you want to win an FFA game, you'll use one of the explosive guns. Saber using is an option, just an inferior one. This is the issue that has to be fixed; sabers don't have to be stronger, they should just be an equally viable(or maybe better and just harder to master) option.


As for the Jedi vs Gunners game mode... It sounds good in concept, but it won't work. Go play a Jedi Master game, and see just how well a pure gunner(hell, a group of them in one team) can do against a saber and force user. Granted, the Jedi Master has 3 in every force power, but you can get pretty close to maxing out the powers you use most in a full force game.

Sartis
04-10-2002, 02:43 PM
Personally I like the idea of classes, I just don't find it right that someone without saber defend/offense has more force powers than me and can kill me 10x farther away then I can kill him, thats not balanced at all lol.

Anyways from the email sounds good so far

And a Jedi vs Gunner will be good, why? Jedi's actually have a chance now, Right now as it is Gunners just have to have Force jump/speed/pull/push/healing/absorb and they are pretty formidable. Take away those forces and they are just a guy with a gun, vs a guy with some tricks. And I'm sorry but the power of some of those weapons by themselves even it out vs Jedi

Ascari
04-10-2002, 02:43 PM
Well, maybe some modification would be very nice.

Like bountyhunters vs. jedi's where the bountyhunters have jet backs etc. ( not my own idea, someone else posted it, I cant remember who )

But such modification's would be awesome.
Since playing Boba Fett is as much fun as playing a Jedi, this is very important if u want to have 2 balanced teams.

TheDarkSide
04-10-2002, 02:54 PM
As for the Jedi vs Gunners game mode... It sounds good in concept

I think people are mistaking having to choose sides as a Jedi or a gunner, or just having to choose what class you are going to be. I.E. CTF, Team FFA won't be force to be all jedi vs all gunners, it's just an option you pick on your configuration screen when you spawn into a new server...light, dark or gunner only. So you'll have a mix on each side, some jedi and some gunners versus the same on the other side.

Jedi master mode points out the faults of having one uber jedi vs all nons, but with a mix on each side, I think it would be darn movie like (I think I hear the anti-fanboys gasping). Example Ep I when Obi wan and Qui gon start dueling with Maul. All the non force participants scamper off to let the Jedi get down to work...Jedi vs Jedi, gunners vs gunners....

Hitogeki
04-10-2002, 02:56 PM
Realism or not who cares, It is a video game.

The only thing I want to limit the power of the guns, in all honesty they are too powerful. If someone is using absorb and the heavier guns they are rather invincible. First of all you cant pull away their guns and the only way to stop the absorb quick enough is drain, most of the time I dont use drain cause I use the light side of the force. With that said I think they should definatelly add a multiplayer mode or option that makes it so if you use the heavier guns then you cannot use the force.

Take the movies for example, You rarely see jedi using guns in the movies and in the first episode none of the jedi had guns. Although alot of the parts in the first episode were stupid and pointless (pod races and jar jar ugh), It was how star wars was originally meant to be (I mean the light saber battles and what not). We didnt have the technology to do some of the amazing things we can now in movies.

Im not saying rip the guns out of the game, but balance out their power. Keep the game unique and dont make it quake. :jawa

Mattman
04-10-2002, 02:58 PM
I'm certainly not advocating the complete nerfing of gun users, my biggest problem with saber users vs gun users is simply that saber users have to put A LOT of force points into the ability to effectively use the saber, whereas gun users who are not planning on user their saber (much) don't need to worry about that as much. This effectively gives them an extra advantage of having, in a sense, more force points than the saber user. It's currently a disadvantage, on a gun server, for one to choose to max out their saber skills...

I am concerned for the viability of gun users after a patch, mostly because completely taking away their force powers would be a huge hit in their mobility, mostly due to the loss of force jump. That's why I suggested a jetpack of some sorts, as an incentive. It would allow the gun user to have even better mobility than a jedi, but at the loss of the other force powers. Also maybe something to compesate for force speed as well (stims maybe?) so that jedi don't dominate CTF and CTY.

Having the sabers to be vastly better than guns would be just as lame as the current situation, where guns are vastly better than sabers. I only seek to balance the two. Though the saber will be harder to master.

Kurgan
04-10-2002, 03:06 PM
U said that if u adjust the weapons a bit the saber becomes the best weapon in the game?

The way it is now the gun users have a huge advantage over saber users. Balancing this will not make the guns useless.



Here is what I really think:

The saber is just another weapon. There is no reason that is has to be able to hold its own against all other weapons. The ability to duel saber to saber is already built into the game, as is the ability to use sabers only. As it is, the saber is a poor choice in certain combat situations, and those who ignore this fact, do so at their own peril!

I think that some people feel that the game should be balanced in such a way, that you can join a multiplayer server where people who use all of the other weapons will be on equal footing with those who use the saber exclusively. I however, disagree.

How would it be if for example, the game was balanced in such a way that I could just use the rocket launcher exclusively and win game after game, since it was as powerful as all the other weapons? True, you could make every weapon equally powerful, but then what is the point in having so many weapons (except eye candy)? As it is, certain weapons are good in certain situations, encouraging people to trade off.

So many folks complain about people who "whore" (I hate that word usage) by using the same weapon/power/method of killing over and over again. Well unless you differentiate weapons, this is going to happen more often. Why switch weapons if the one you are using is good in any in all situations, against all foes?

I don't see any reason (except if this were a class based mod) why this should be the case. A lot of people are arguing (as you are) that sabers are too weak compared to guns, but I think that wishing for the above is unrealistic, unless, it's a mod.

The game itself is balanced in such a way that no one weapon should be able to dominate. Thus this encourages people to use a variety of weapons, force powers, and tactics, in order to win. This of course does not stop a person from winning repeatedly using one weapon against shall we say "less experienced players" who don't know how to counter that weapon/power (but that's a problem for any FPS game).

The whole reason I'm against the "jedi simulator" model of MP for JK2 is that it seems to assume that the game must be balanced in such a way that sabers either dominate guns, or a saber user never needs to touch any other weapon in order to win.

I never said that no tweaks were necessary, I just said that this kind of logic in the balance of the game misses the whole point. If this were simply a game of Jedi Knights vs. Jedi Knights with sabers, then we wouldn't have all these other weapons and gadgets. As it is, it's about variety and balance, and I think that's perfectly fine. JK/MotS were the same way.


Personally I like playing in normal FFA games. There is a lot more diversity then in Saber only games.

I agree. And I remind everyone that they can still play sabers only if they chose, and they can have dueling servers to avoid being shot by people while they are waiting for a duel. ; )

Kurgan, if you think weakening the explosive weapons a bit will make everyone use sabers, you are very sorely mistaken. I was very surprised to discover how many people will use the regular blasterfire weapons, even against good saber users; pull their weapons and they'll shoot at you with the bryar. The concept of using the saber just disgusts them, even if they don't have an overpowered gun. It makes me sad every time I crouch down with my saber and get the other person to kill themselves with their repeater or even bryar(has happened a number of times).

My only real complaint are with the people who insist on using the saber in all situations, even when the saber is not the best choice, and then insisit that this is the only worthy method of play. They are the ones clamoring for the game to be more like star wars, and for guns to be toned down, etc. I love sabers, I use them a lot, but I figure the other weapons should also be used if they are available. Obviously people use them now, because they help you win, they are tools and tactics built into the competative nature of multiplayer. I think you would agree, that if the saber indeed were the ultimate weapon, eventually, all players would use it, because it would be the best tactic to win. The only ones who would not, would be bored people, and "less experienced players." Right?

Obviously there are a lot of ways gameplay COULD be changed in theory, but I don't think that making the saber stronger and guns weaker is the answer to all our problems.

People also seem to be forgetting an important point here:

The saber by itself is quite weak (as any weapon without the force ultimately is). Think about it.. how good would you do in a FFA game, if you just used the saber, nothing else.. no powerups, no force, no gadgets. Nobody but a masochist gamer would play that way in a full force match.

No, instead, most people, even the ones who use nothing but saber in a FFA game, will use the FORCE (read: multiple force powers) to aid their use of the saber.

But then what do users of other weapons do? They also use the force... so the force helps to enhance their use of whatever weapon. A person with the stun baton, can still be quite threatening and powerful, if they make clever use of gadgets, powerups and the force.

That throws a whole new dimension into it, but people should think about this. If you make the saber stronger or weaker, it's still backed up with force, increasing its overall effectivness. Same with guns.

This could get into issues of NF fighting (with all weapons). I don't know, maybe it is unbalanced in that respect, since you can't push away rockets. But again, it seems to me if you want to win in that situation, you can't rely soley on the saber. Maybe a "No Force Guns+Sabers Balancing Mod" is in order?

Something to think about...

GalacticBulge
04-10-2002, 03:09 PM
One thing that should have been mentioned is that the MP saber battles should mimic the SP ones. The SP battles were simply unbelievable.

I guess I could fire off an email. I'm sure Raven has heard about that, though. hehe

DannyDiplo
04-10-2002, 03:22 PM
I think Kurgan makes some good points, but misses out on the bigger picture... The fact is there are already plenty of multiplayer guns based FPS games, and what attracts people to JK2 is using the saber as it's pretty unique. However, if when people use it they are totally overwhelmed by gunners, then they either have to resort to using guns or stick with playing duels. If JK2 multiplayer just ends up being predominanatly weapons based, then frankly there are better games out there which are much more suitable and balanced for deathmatch and CTF (Unreal Tournament, Quake3 Arena, and forthcoming UT 2003). People want to use sabers precisely because they're not just another weapon!

Zek
04-10-2002, 03:24 PM
TheDarkSide, I realize that. What I was saying is that if people were forced to make a choice between Sabers and Force or being able to pick up items, the Jedi would be the vastly superior class and most everyone would pick it. If the Gunners started with every gun or something, it might be more balanced(if the repeater is fixed, that is). I imagine someone will mod a game mode just like this if Raven doesn't include it; I just hope there are enough people playing it.

d3vin
04-10-2002, 03:24 PM
I dont think the game has been out long enough to judge balance in the long term.

force powers seem pretty even too me, maybe light side a little stronger in ffa w/guns available but hard to say.

the acrobatics and rolls available to saber users is very nice.

Personally i play with both guns and saber, contstantly switching back and forth depending on situtation. This is the most fun i ever had with a video game.

I would very much hate to be limited to what weapons i could use. I think the great variety of options simultaneously available make this my favorite deathmatch game of all.

Canis_Aureus
04-10-2002, 04:48 PM
D66 the T2 curse is nothing but urban myth. I have played T2 since the day it got out and still play in my tribe... almost évery day. Tribes2 has never been more playable than it is now. It has never been more balanced than it is now and it has never been more stable than it is now. The next patch will make some changes again but mostly adress bugs.

I disagree with your statement about not changing game mechanics. I know that people will have to get used to the new mechanics, but if the game becomes more playable there simply isn't any excuse for not beeing happy about it. I guess most companies won't do that stuff because the support they give is limited to removing bugs.

I am really pleased with companies who listen to the community and change things that needs to be changed. Many people left Tribes2 because it was too hard to learn. I played starsiege tribes too and had little trouble adapting to the environment.

There were also the people who flamed Tribes2 for beeing too different from Tribes1... the skiing speed was a major issue. BUT in terms of good gameplay the changes Dynamix made were really good. The 1337 players were just mad because they couldn't do their insane fast caps any longer. I found it great as the gameplay and teamwork was improved so much by the changes.

And for JO... they mention the option of deciding to be either Jedi OR gun user and THAT WILL add to the gameplay. It will balance things more, make jedis and gun users different and I look forward to this improvement.

d3vin
04-10-2002, 05:45 PM
I wish that the JK2:JO is balanced in such a way that a straght gun user, a straight saber user, and a hybrid saber/gun all are competively equal.

This could be the case now. I really dont know what type would be favored at the present, if any.

That would allow people to play the style of their preference and not insist on removing other people's preferences.

Ascari
04-10-2002, 07:59 PM
I would like to see some sort of CounterStrike modification ( call me crazy ) in Jedi Knight


Where the Jedi's have to protect/free persons.
On the other side u have players like Boba fett for instance.

With jetpacks so they can jump as high as the Jedi's and some balanced weapons that are equal to the saber.

Might be a long shot though


Basicly I think ffa is good, short for the "walk as fast backwards as forward" and the alt. fire on the repeater ( and the shotgun weapon ). And the dark side drain/light side heal issue.

Zodiac
04-10-2002, 09:37 PM
Originally posted by d3vin
I wish that the JK2:JO is balanced in such a way that a straght gun user, a straight saber user, and a hybrid saber/gun all are competively equal.


That can never be possible. Raven wanted to do this for the first inital release, but after all that effort, it still didn't work. Just face it: a skilled guy with rocket launcher/repeater will always kill a straight saberist. :( That saber guy might force_push the rocket away, but don't forget that rocket/repeater guy will have force powers too, and he'd still have the advantage then. Just look at all the posts on this forum about saberists complaining how much they don't like those "nasty gunners who just want to frag".

That's why Raven is concentrating on the "guns only/sabers only" or "guns no force/sabers and force" options. :)

Zodiac
04-10-2002, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Ascari
I would like to see some sort of CounterStrike modification ( call me crazy ) in Jedi Knight


Where the Jedi's have to protect/free persons.
On the other side u have players like Boba fett for instance.

With jetpacks so they can jump as high as the Jedi's and some balanced weapons that are equal to the saber.

Might be a long shot though


YOU ARE CRAZY!!!

heh nah, I'd really like to see a co-op team mod too!! That'd be great. And I hope the rumors are true and they're actually working on one.

Sartis
04-10-2002, 11:51 PM
Guns VS Sabers is not balanced, and I'm sure 99% of the people who play this game do not look as though the Saber is just another weapon, to alot of people its the only weapon they want to use. Why? because they want to do the 'Jedi' thing.

The whole problem is gunners with the same/more force powers than the person who only uses the Saber, personally I look forward to the Gunner/Jedi modes, there is no reason why someone who can kill 5 people with 3 clicks 10 feet away should have the same advantages as the Saberists. Lets be reasonable here we all know there is 3 types of players out there the Saberists, Hybrids, and Gunners. Majority of the people that play JO want to just use saber. The other Majority like using guns, then there is the middle people the Hybrids who like to use both but there isn't very many of them numbers are growing.

I do find though Making the gunners move slower with bigger guns rather over nerfing, if they have no force powers sure thats a good balancing tactic, but start making them move alot slower since they have a bigger gun and then you are just killing off all the Gunners. Running backwards not as fast ok sure I can understand that.

Kurgan
04-10-2002, 11:58 PM
I think Kurgan makes some good points, but misses out on the bigger picture... The fact is there are already plenty of multiplayer guns based FPS games, and what attracts people to JK2 is using the saber as it's pretty unique.

Danny, here's the problem.. this mythical Jedi Lightsabers only game that people want to roleplay in.. doesn't exist.

JK2 is NOT that kind of game. The fact that it features all those other weapons, and the saber does NOT dominate, is proof that the developers never intended to create such a light-saber only game. Hence.. if people want lightsaber only battles, they can use the options already available to them, or they can make mods.. or find another game to play.

It seems like a few people are wishing for JK2 to become the game they never got. Trouble is, it's such a drastic change from what the developers started with, I dunno if it's even a realistic thing to expect.

Hopefully the roleplayers will be satisfied when SW Galaxies and KOTOR come out....

Sartis
04-11-2002, 02:00 AM
I don't think they wanted a Saber dominated game, but I do believe they wanted Saber people to be able to stand they're ground vs gunners. I seriously believe they wanted a more balanced game than it is now, and that is proven by the Email.

The 'balancing' may ruin the game for some, but the majority 80% it seems from the Patch Thread want the Guns vs Sabers balanced. on another note 99% want sabers more like SP, that there tells you this game is majorly about the sabers.

I see why your concerned Kurgan, but Raven has done a good job so far maybe have some more faith in them. I'm sure they won't cripple gun users to death, if they do there is alot of other shooter FPS's out there for them. But this is the only worthwhile saber FPS.

Also its not all about the 'roleplaying', alot of the saberists use it because they like the saber, they came to the game because of hte saber and its uniqueness, not the Imperial Repeater.

Anyways we could go on forever with this thread back and forth how about we agree to disagree on what we find fun in JO? In the end Ravensoft will do what they want to do.

ZeroXcape
04-11-2002, 03:38 AM
Like I always said back in the day of Dark Forces II: "If you want to play with guns, go buy Quake 2."

Jedi Knight / Jedi Knight II == are about the saber.

Canis_Aureus
04-11-2002, 11:36 AM
If the patch does indeed change what those notes said the game will be more fun. If you have to be either Jedi or Gun User there IS a difference between the two other than the one just beeing more powerful. The gun users will still have the advantage of range and win most of the time I think, BUT the Jedis will at least be special and be more fun to play. I really hope they implemet this right... It wouldn't make Jedis and Gun Users equal, but it would make playing a Jedi with a saber only much more fun and rewarding.

Ascari
04-11-2002, 12:17 PM
Concluding from Raven's e-mail I have high hopes for the patch.

And i'm still gonna play on gun servers with my saber, just for the fun of tripping them over my trip mines :)

Creston
04-11-2002, 12:34 PM
Originally posted by D66


Have we learned Nothing from Tribes 2?




Yes we have.

1) Sierra sucks the sweat of a dead man's *****
2) Patching a game before actually TESTING your patch in any kind of beta setup is a VERY Bad Idea(tm).
3) Then releasing a patch to REMOVE your previous ****ty patch is an even MORE stupid idea, especially if it DOESN'T WORK!
4) Laming the graphics and increasing the fog to the level of a very foggy morning in the UK, just so that people with their p100 can have an "equal playing field", does not endear you to people who just spent 400 dollars in upgrading their computer to see your game in all it's splendor.
5) Refusing to listen to your fans, and refusing to see what the MAJORITY wants, then going with what the very very very very small MINORITY wants, is a Bad Idea (tm).
6) Continuously taking a crap at your game, then after a year or so complaining that it stinks of poo, only to justify your new game (Tribes ; Fast Attack) which "Doesn't have all the crap stuff that we f*cked up in Tribes 2" really means "Oh all you suckers, we need more money, come buy more of our rather paltry product, so we can kick you in the nuts once more time!


Read the forums. Notice just how MANY people are asking for most of these changes. Notice just how FEW saberers there are in any FFA game, and how very rarely they wind up at the top of the rankings. Notice how MANY repeater alt fire spammers, force drain / grippers etc there are. This means something.
Here's another piece of evidence. Set up a game with bots only, Lando vs Kyle / Luke / Desann on Jedi Master. Even if he's only 1, Lando still wins. Why? Because he never switches to a lightsaber, that's why. This is the starwars universe. Not the Quake universe. A lightsaber should MEAN something.

Besides, I do feel that ChangKhan implied that this would be an OPTION to run in MP, not a total change of the FFA as it is now. As such, it would be a similar thing to 'saber only', or 'no force powers'.

Leaving these changes to the "mod community" as you stated, would mean two things :

1) It would take approximately two years to come out, if at all done well (no disrespect intended to the Mod community, but I think we all know that any DECENT mod of a large scale simply takes a whole lot of time).

2) It would mean that every server eventually runs a different mod, meaning you can join only a very select few.

I think having Raven do it is far preferable.

Go Raven, make us that patch! :D

PS, no insults intended anywhere, apologies if they came across as such.

Creston

Zek
04-12-2002, 12:15 AM
Yeah, Sierra made some pretty retarded deciso---Tribes Fast Attack?

*reads a preview*

Must...Buy...New...Tribes...Game...

Tribes-induced hypnosis aside, there were some questionable decisions in Tribes 2 history, but it's still one of the best FPS games I own, and I actually played it a good deal to tide myself over for JK2. The main reason I don't play it anymore is because of the team-based nature which pretty much forced you to either play as a loner and hope they have bad defense, or join a tribe and play on private servers. I never had that kind of dedication, but I imagine it's much different than the every-man-for-himself public servers.

Tribes Fast Attack might be interesting; one of my favorite things about the Tribes series is the speed and freedom of movement. I'll have to see how it turns out.

What were we talking about again?

RabidPlatypus
04-12-2002, 12:20 AM
a clone wars mod would be good, team LMS one team is jedis with saber only and force powers of their choice. One team is mandalorian armor peeps with jetpacks to replace force jump along with cool weapons. Add in 16-32 players in an outdoor arena with plenty of obstacles and you've got a kick ass mod.

Trienco
04-12-2002, 06:28 AM
Originally posted by RabidPlatypus
a clone wars mod would be good, team LMS one team is jedis with saber only and force powers of their choice. One team is mandalorian armor peeps with jetpacks to replace force jump along with cool weapons. Add in 16-32 players in an outdoor arena with plenty of obstacles and you've got a kick ass mod.

glad to see im not alone with that *gg*. btw. im trying to find some people (and a server) to actually test how good it would work (by having the jedi as they are and giving the mand. the corresponding force powers for now.. grip1, lightning 1or2, jump3). but it would take a lot of discipline of both sides not to use things they wont have in the mod (no picking up stuff for jedi and not using push/pull for mand. other than for defense against it... later the range of those will be decreased and should only be dangerous if youre stupid enough to come to close *g*).

Hell Raiser
04-12-2002, 06:41 AM
Ok, is it bad joo joo to be a gunner AND a saberer?

I wanna play with sabers, I join a Duel server. Simple as that.

I wanna frag with guns and force, I join a FFA server. Depending on the situation, I'll whip out my saber, maybe even get a private duel in.

Why can't you (certian) people do the same?!? :confused:

Ok, maybe a duel server isn't perfect FFA Saber combat. Then again, who would want a mosh pit made of Jedi? :eyeraise:

All that needs to be done, IMHO, is to include more filtering options in the in-game browser. Personally I'd prefer a filter for every known server option, but that's just me lookin for a Duel server with a frag limit of 1 and no force. :) I spend a good 10 minutes lookin for a server with the options I want, mostly because after you're done lookin at the server info, it takes you back to the top of the list. :dozey: *grumble grumble*

If you get it so people can find the servers with the options they want to play in, *gasp* they won't complain! :joy:

VaderJM
04-12-2002, 07:09 AM
All of you saying "If you want to use guns, go play quake" why don't you just cut it out. Guns are in JO, they were meant to be in JO, and since they're there I will use them whenever and however I damn well please.

Trienco
04-12-2002, 07:45 AM
Originally posted by Hell Raiser
Ok, is it bad joo joo to be a gunner AND a saberer?

Ok, maybe a duel server isn't perfect FFA Saber combat. Then again, who would want a mosh pit made of Jedi? :eyeraise:



first there would have to be a way to set a duel server that it acts like a challenge in ffa. you either have no force (no jump, no kick, no throw) or all force (drain, grip, lightning *yawn*).

the reason so many have their duels on ffa servers is that a challenge there is the way duel servers should be (or at least be able to be). also: just agree on not using the force and you can have multiple duels instead of waiting (in theory, will never work in a real game anyway)

Sir Losealot
04-12-2002, 10:28 AM
The danger of removing the blue glow from "absorb" is that it may completely cancel any need for using dark powers. Invisible "absorb" and "heal" will become a most powerful combo and most people will be using only this. Is this what we want?

Just a thought.

Ascari
04-12-2002, 10:51 AM
Judging from the e-mail Mike wants to nerv Heal and Drain.

I'm sure they will come up with a good solution :)



I just hope my faith in them will be justified when the next patch comes out

Creston
04-12-2002, 12:11 PM
Originally posted by Sir Losealot
The danger of removing the blue glow from "absorb" is that it may completely cancel any need for using dark powers. Invisible "absorb" and "heal" will become a most powerful combo and most people will be using only this. Is this what we want?

Just a thought.

Everyone, including Kurgan, seems to believe that if we change the situation where one combo is now overpowered, this AUTOMATICALLY leads to a situation where another thing is overpowered? The word BALANCING should mean something here, right? Isn't that what most everybody is asking for? BALANCING of the force powers? Is the meaning of the word BALANCING that hard to understand?

Absorb and heal combo? Absorb isn't something you can just turn on and leave on for the rest of the game, eh? Also, this is a defensive combo. Personally, I don't really have a problem with someone having the opportunity to heal himself. Either he heals, or he respawns, or he walks over the large shield booster, what's the difference?
The thing about this passive combo is that you still have to do something ELSE to make kills. Going up to a crowd and hitting your force lightning 3 quick key, now THAT'S a very hard way to kill some people. By all means, let's leave that in here..

On another topic, I wouldn't have any problem with the saber being the most powerful weapon. Quite frankly, I think it's meant to be that way in the SW universe, but even disregarding that, it does actually take at least SOME modicum of skill to kill someone with the saber, especially if they have a saber too.
What kind of skill does it take to alt fire with the repeater rifle? You don't even have to AIM to get a kill!

And before some of you go and shout "People just bash buttons and get a kill!"
I heartily believe that this is an exception and it only works against new players. If someone with strong stance who just swings around like an idiot kills you, you are doing something wrong.

If they (Raven) set up a modification where you are either a saberer with force, or a gunner with powerups, they don't have to change a thing to weapons or anything. The force will balance the alt repeater rifle, ESPECIALLY since alt repeater n00bs won't be able to just continuously force jump while dumping their blue balls of death all over the level. In fact, LEAVE them the way they are. I also agree that when we are BALANCING, we shouldn't totally nerf the guns.

In fact, if they have the time and dedication for it, we could have some minor balances to the guns (the alt repeater does realistically need to fire slower, and it WOULD be more logical in every game option that backpedalling makes you move slower than forward running does) for straight pure FFA, and then have an option to play as Jedi vs Gunners or something. (a la Saber Only, No Force etc). Where things could be as they were for all I care.

Guns are in JO, so they are meant to be used? No argument there. The LIGHTSABER is in JO as well. Can it at least have a modicum of a chance to stand up against gunners? Thank you. :)

Creston

DannyDiplo
04-12-2002, 12:57 PM
Originally posted by Kurgan
JK2 is NOT that kind of game. The fact that it features all those other weapons, and the saber does NOT dominate, is proof that the developers never intended to create such a light-saber only game.
Whilst what you say is true, how many people once they got the light saber used virtually nothing else? Start a poll and I'll bet you find that 90% or more used the saber almost exclusively, apart from in a few situations that demanded guns. I know I certainly did, and I'm not even a big fan of Star Wars (I just liked using such a cool melee weapon in an FPS game for a change).

Maybe the developers never intended it, but that seems to be what a lot of people want, and a few minor tweaks to multiplayer gameplay could give them that. If the fans are happy then the developers make more dosh, and I'm sure Raven wouldn't object to that :)

DannyDiplo
04-12-2002, 01:03 PM
Originally posted by Sir Losealot
The danger of removing the blue glow from "absorb" is that it may completely cancel any need for using dark powers.
My solution to this is to make absorb only glow blue when someone attacks you with a force power, but not before. The problem with the way absorb acts now is that if you have it on you are blatantly telegraphing to someone not to bother using drain etc. on you. Drainers already have one of the most powerful forces, why should they get even more advantage by knowing when you are using it? This wouldn't give absorbers a huge advantage because it drains your mana so fast that you can't keep it on for long anyway.

Sartis
04-12-2002, 01:12 PM
I highly doubt they will enhance Absorb after looking at nerfing Drain

Sir Losealot
04-12-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Creston


The word BALANCING should mean something here, right? Isn't that what most everybody is asking for? BALANCING of the force powers? Is the meaning of the word BALANCING that hard to understand?

Creston

Yes, balancing should not mean to kill variety in a game. Guns and force powers should be there. But to balance them, especially guns against saber, will require a lot of thought and testing.

I've been playing JO for the last 2 weeks like a madman and I am definitely not a Star Wars fan.

The only part which totally captivated me was saber fight. This is the only fps game on the market with lightsaber fight.

Guns are in every fps game. I've played most of them (my cusin works in computer store) and I NEVER EVER was as excited about any of theirs weapons as of lightsaber.

So, I don't agree with those who says that "lightsaber is just another weapon and developers never intended to give it a special place". This game IS about developing saber and forcepowers skills.

I wouldn't have even touched this game with a stick if it was not for lightsaber and forcepowers. I never even touch the guns. I remeber them only vaquely from single player game and when I get a rocket in the head in multiplayer.

After 2 weeks of playing I noticed my increased frustration with unfairness regarding weapons vs saber balance. I already know that if the patch will not correct these issues in a satisfactory manner, I will stop playing this game.

What's a point of playing game where bunny hopping gun*****, running backwards shoots blindly and kills you anyway.

And please don't tell me about pulling his weapon out of his hand or pushing the missile back. In the heat of battle you can't be precise enough all the time in order to even the odds.

Even when you push a couple of missiles back, next one will kill you because you run out of force. His own missiles won't kill him because he happily maxed out his forcejump and speed ( the points which I used for saber attack and defence) and is flying all over me spraying the goods without even aiming.

What to speak about those "BEST" players on the scoreboard who stay aside and watch 5 saber players fighting and throwing C4 or whatever it's called in JO, and killing 5 people at once. No fun at all.

And no, I don't want to play only duel games.

The patch must correct these issues soon or JO will become just another fps amongs many.

Sir Losealot
04-12-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Creston


The word BALANCING should mean something here, right? Isn't that what most everybody is asking for? BALANCING of the force powers? Is the meaning of the word BALANCING that hard to understand?

Creston

Yes, balancing should not mean to kill variety in a game. Guns and force powers should be there. But to balance them, especially guns against saber, will require a lot of thought and testing.

I've been playing JO for the last 2 weeks like a madman and I am definitely not a Star Wars fan.

The only part which totally captivated me was saber fight. This is the only fps game on the market with lightsaber fight.

Guns are in every fps game. I've played most of them (my cusin works in computer store) and I NEVER EVER was as excited about any of theirs weapons as of lightsaber.

So, I don't agree with those who says that "lightsaber is just another weapon and developers never intended to give it a special place". This game IS about developing saber and forcepowers skills.

I wouldn't have even touched this game with a stick if it was not for lightsaber and forcepowers. I never even touch the guns. I remeber them only vaquely from single player game and when I get a rocket in the head in multiplayer.

After 2 weeks of playing I noticed my increased frustration with unfairness regarding weapons vs saber balance. I already know that if the patch will not correct these issues in a satisfactory manner, I will stop playing this game.

What's a point of playing game where bunny hopping gun*****, running backwards shoots blindly and kills you anyway.

And please don't tell me about pulling his weapon out of his hand or pushing the missile back. In the heat of battle you can't be precise enough all the time in order to even the odds.

Even when you push a couple of missiles back, next one will kill you because you run out of force. His own missiles won't kill him because he happily maxed out his forcejump and speed ( the points which I used for saber attack and defence) and is flying all over me spraying the goods without even aiming.

What to speak about those "BEST" players on the scoreboard who stay aside and watch 5 saber players fighting and throwing C4 or whatever it's called in JO, and killing 5 people at once. No fun at all.

And no, I don't want to play only duel games.

The patch must correct these issues soon or JO will become just another fps amongs many.

Zed030
04-12-2002, 04:38 PM
... Or this email is bull****.

Sir Losealot
04-12-2002, 06:25 PM
I am sorry for double posting. Message board was unresponsive.

F**kOffRegister
04-13-2002, 01:40 AM
Like the jedi vs mercenary/soldier idea. Saber and powers vs gun and pickups sounds like a plan.

Trienco
04-13-2002, 06:22 AM
a nice plan too. i just dont understand why so many people start crying 'dont take away our force powers just because we use guns and dont have any reason to come close to those _dangerous_ jedi'. it would just be another kind of game. it's like playing on a sabers only server and say 'hey, where are my guns, i want my guns'.

so, YES, i would love to have that as part of the next patch and whoever is against another game-type: dont play it.

lobotomist
04-13-2002, 09:39 AM
DRAIN isnt unbalanced in FFA.
Heck, if you are drained of mana-just run away and recharge.
And GRIP...i have no problem with it..if somebody manages to grip me.I either PUSH him...and he falls on his but HAHA!
Or use ABSORB and the grip is broken emidiately + you fill up your mana HAHAAA!

But in DUEL!!
DRAIN is a problem...it has to long range.And the dark Jedi uses it not to heal but to steal your mana...So he has mana to push pull or whatever he wants...and you have none.You can also not run away..because drain range covers half of duel maps!!??...

Creston
04-13-2002, 01:50 PM
I would actually like to see an expansion pack that features some of the more cool ideas on this forum for Multiplayer.

I mean, let's face it, Raven isn't going to make a patch that creates totally new gameplay modes. First off it would be a 100MB patch, and second, they WOULD like to see some money for it.

But Jedi's vs Bounty Hunters, for example, where bounty hunters have jetpacks and grappling hooks to counter the Jedi's forcepowers and such, would be an EXCELLENT idea for an expansion pack. :)

I do still hope, however, that they will honestly look into making a server option of Guns vs Jedi's. You want Force Powers? Then no guns and no powerups. You want guns? Then no Force Powers. Etc.
And if it's just an option, the gunners who feel that this will lame them can still play straight FFA servers like they are doing now (which, I think, will quickly turn into Q3 with star wars graphics then), and the people who like to be able to walk around with a lightsaber without getting alt repeater spammed, or shot to death by a flechette cannon even while you have saber defense 3, by a guy who is Dark Raging and Force Speeding around you, can play on a server where such a thing is no longer possible.

Everybody happy, right?

Get to it Raven! :D

Creston