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View Full Version : Were Yoda, Mace Windu and the other jedi able to feel Palpatine in Episode 1?


Jedi_Prophecy
04-03-2001, 09:21 PM
I am a die-hard starwars fan new to this forum and i would like to hear people's view's on this topic. In the end of ep.1, could all the jedi who were in the crematorium when Qui-Gonn Jinn was being cremated feel an evil presence coming from Palpatine???????

Pedro The Hutt
04-03-2001, 09:44 PM
I asked the very same question a while ago, and got this in reply. Palpatine is able to use a Jedi/Sith technique that simply hides his presence in the force to other force sensitive beings. So everytime he would even come near a jedi, he would use this trick, so the jedi's didn't spot him untill it was too late.

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No!
I am your father.

liquidkid
04-03-2001, 10:48 PM
yeah that's pretty much the deal. by not using his powers at all, the jedi are not able to pick up on his evil sith powers (cuz he's not using them) i think that's pretty much all there is to it. the jedi can feel "disturbances" in the force and the like, so if palpatine doesnt make any.... blah blah blah.

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http://www.erian.com/cgi-bin/erian.com/picview.pl?/starwars/pictures/luke/luke-blast.jpg
LiQUiDKiD
-UNcouncil Master of Insults, Supreme Chancelor's Hitman, All Around Bully.

P.L.U.R. <> J9K-4-LIFE <> JEDI-4-LIFE <> MCL

[This message has been edited by liquidkid (edited April 03, 2001).]

Jedi SuperBuen
04-04-2001, 06:45 PM
ie: Vader feeling Obi-Wan's presence in ANH... Meaning Obi-Wan was using his powers to cloud the stormtroopers' minds, making them harder to find on the Falcon...

So unless Palpatine starts using the Force, then he won't be found.

Another note is that it seems like Jedis need to be specifically looking for Force sensitive people, ie: Anakin. Only when Qui-Gon saw/heard Anakin was able to do some weird stuff did he test the boy... The Jedi have no reason really to wonder if Palpatine is a Force user or not, since he's pretty much in the shadows (for now). Yah know, he's the Phantom Menace http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif

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Ash to ash,
Dust to dust,
Fade to black,
But the memory remains...

Kurgan
04-05-2001, 04:02 PM
Or maybe the buzz of all those good Jedi in the room made it too tough to notice feel the lone "evil" one in their midst (since they obviously hadn't a clue).

Kurgan

quite-gone gin
04-06-2001, 09:51 PM
Yes, and remember that Mace said he didn't think the sith could come back without the Jedi being aware of it. What did Yoda say? "Hard to see, the dark side is." The dark side is masked by darkness, just as it is impossible to see in total darkness. Also, remember the sabre battle with Darth Maul. Darth Maul ws just on the other side of the door, but Qui-Gonn and Obi-wan didn't "sense" him. They didn't say, "Wait, don't open the door, I sense an evil presence on the other side."

These other speculations about it being some dark side power are simply that: speculations. Take this as an analogy: there's a lit room, a room that is pitch black, and a long hallway connecting the two so that the light from the lit room doesn't illuminate the dark room. If you're in the lit room you won't be able to see what is in the dark room. However, in the dark room you could easily see into the lit room. The dark side, by the very nature of darkness, masks itself.

But come on people, the Star Wars universe is a make believe (although I wouldn't mind living in it if I could!). Being such, there's lots of holes in it. My analogy doesn't hold water if you take it far enough. It could explain why Vader could sense Obi-wan's presence on the Death Star in ANH, and why in TPM the Jedi didn't sense Palpatine's evil. But then in ROTJ, why could Luke sense Vader's presence on the Command Ship on their way to the Endor Moon? Then we try to fake something..."Well he'd fought him before and knew what to sense"...or "They were father and son and had a familial force bond."

The biggest "Why?" question is why in the world did Lucas try to give an explanation to the Force? Midi-clorians? Sound like a bleached synth! It should have been left a mystery, open for the imagination to run with it and wonder about it. I was 6 when I saw ANH in the theatres and I had no explanation for the Force, and I didn't need one! It was just cool, and I wish I had it. And after ESB, I don't know how many times I tried to force pull something towards me like Luke did in the cave. I really think they blundered there.

Granted, then how come some are stronger with the Force than others? How could they test Anakin as more "force-bearing" than Yoda, wouldn't they just have noticed it? etc, etc. They had to come up with something to make the story work. But midiclorians? Some symbiants living in each of my cells? In that case, then you either have enough or you don't. If I was a kid when EP1 came out, I'd be looking for midi-clorians in my blood to see if I had enough to use the force. I can see kids running around saying, "No, I have more midiclorians than you" "Do not" "Do too...YOU don't have any!"

I liked the eastern "mystical energy field that surrounds us, binds us," blah blah blah. It's a bit more beleivable, it's out there all around us and if you just learned how to tap into it, you were good to go. My imagination ran with that when I was a kid, and I really thought I could force pull stuff if I tried hard enough. (Don't ask what I tried when I thought I could fly if I tried hard enough!)

[This message has been edited by quite-gone gin (edited April 06, 2001).]

StormHammer
04-06-2001, 10:39 PM
The Force was never a new concept - I mean, if you think about it, it's just the use of telekinetic powers and ESP. Mind over matter, and all that, which I believe exists to some extent in the *real* world.

Lucas managed to make something considered paranormal into something mythical and magical. Then, as you said, he spoiled it by introducing midi-clorians. Bah!

Some people never know when they're onto a good thing. I mean, fair enough, he was targeting TPM at a more enlightened audience - people who are growing up in a world where the buzz-words are 'genetics', 'nanotechnology' and what-have-you. But introducing this element into what is essentially a fantasy to make it seem more real does nothing but water it down and make it less enjoyable.

Most people go to see such films to escape from reality, not to be reminded of it.

We're now experiencing the same problems with the *miracles* in the bible, IMO. Virgin birth? No problem. Just use a test-tube/artificial insemination. Walking on water? Levitation. Parting of the Red Sea? Telekinetic powers.

It can all be explained by such means - but we don't want to accept such possibilities because it uncreates the myth, and renders the faith of many people meaningless.

The crux of it is, stick to the mythical and magical, Lucas. We all need some mystery in our lives.

BeastMaster
04-07-2001, 06:38 PM
After the Battle of Rusaan, when Darth Bane created the "only two Sith" rule, the order became devoted to secrecy. As such, they'd have become adept at shielding themselves from the Jedi.

As for the midichlorians, I think that's being set up to be explained in the next movies.

A child born inside the Republic would've been tested at birth (or shortly after) for midichlorians. Naboo is a more loyal Republic world than Tatooine, so we can safely assume that any Naboo citizens will have been tested.

The Jedi obviously don't know Palpatine (from Naboo) has any Force-ability (Force-sensitives who fail their Jedi training would never be allowed in politics). I'd doubt that he could become Senator, and then Chancellor, without ever having been given some sort of blood-test at some point.

Logically, we must conclude that Palpatine, apparently despite his powerful Force-skills, has few or no midichlorians in his blood, thus upsetting the entire midichlorian theory.

I think the explanation is that Jedi scientists have found a correlation between Force-sensitivity and midichlorians. If someone has midichlorians, then they'll have Jedi potential too, and theoretically, everyone who has Jedi potential has midichlorians.

This is faulty logic: that X => Y does not imply that Y => X.

The Jedi test for midichlorians (because they can't test for Force-sensitivity), and everyone with midichlorians proves Force-sensitive.

The opposite doesn't necessarily hold.

The Jedi wouldn't find any non-midichlorianated Force-sensitives because they've never looked for them.

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"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

[This message has been edited by BeastMaster (edited April 07, 2001).]

Redwing
04-08-2001, 02:15 AM
Never in any TPM films, books, etc have there been any mention of forced testing. In the Jedi Apprentice book series, it is very strongly implied that only applicants or people the Jedi discovered (example: Anakin) were tested. And only the Jedi are concerned with midichlorians, so why would Palpatine be tested for them?
And as for sensing the dark side: the Sith can mask their presence.

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At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi.
At last we will have revenge.

paulbarnard
04-08-2001, 04:47 PM
I think the Sith or the more general Dark/Fallen Jedi are more interested in submission to your anger and the Dark Side then mediclorians. Take the help and pawns where you can get it type of attitude.

BeastMaster
04-08-2001, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Redwing:
Never in any TPM films, books, etc have there been any mention of forced testing. In the Jedi Apprentice book series, it is very strongly implied that only applicants or people the Jedi discovered (example: Anakin) were tested.

Actually, one of Yoda's excuses for not wanting to train Anakin was that the boy was too old --I think it's explained in the TPM novelization that only children less than one-year old were taken for training; the only way to find them would be by blood tests. Presumeably, the lower levels of the temple are a Jedi nursery where the children are kept separate from any possible dark influences (one of the reasons the Jedi fell, IMHO).

Plus, didn't Qui-gon say something to Shmi along those lines? ("If he (Anakin)'d been born in the Republic, he would have been taken for Jedi training.")

Note that by "in the Republic," I mean on a Core World, or a populous mainstream world, like Kashyyyk, Kothlis, or Rodia. Tatooine is just too remote; the Republic's grasp is too light. Naboo, on the other hand, seems to be a pretty important world.

Even if nobody's actually looking for midichlorians, TPM sort of implies that they're "right there" and any half-decent medical scan would detect them. If Palpatine's had any bloodwork done (remembering that he's an old man, even during TPM), all anyone would have to do is to look at the analysis.

Heck, the Jedi would probably have some sort of system wired into Coruscant's central medical database that automatically red-flags any data regarding midichlorian counts (so the Jedi wouldn't have to personally analyze 1000s of cell samples).

And actually, in the Jedi Apprentice series, Obi-wan is a foundling (left on the Temple's metaphorical doorstep), certainly not an applicant. He says repeatedly that the Jedi are the only family he's ever known.

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"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

Redwing
04-08-2001, 09:30 PM
Somehow I don't think politicians would give the Jedi free reign on everyone...and who says in the SW universe they ever make you get blood tests? And wouldn't Palpatine, raised a Sith, have found some way to avoid it?
PS I never referred to how Obi-Wan ended up at the Jedi Temple at all.

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At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi.
At last we will have revenge.

quite-gone gin
04-09-2001, 05:12 PM
Yeah Stormhammer, faith-things are being explained away by science and pseudo-science, but I don't think that will kill people's faith, it will make it get even stronger. It's a weird dynamic, under persecution faith increases, but weakening during prosperity (who needs fatih when all is well?). BTW, artificial insemination can lead to a virgin birth these days, but that technology wasn't in place back then. And even "paranormal" activities like telekinesis and levitation don't explain away mystery, I think it increases it. The fact the a mind can efect matter leads to the "supernatural."

Jedi SuperBuen
04-09-2001, 08:37 PM
Hey plus, we only got a small glimpse at midi-clorihans, we don't know the whole story. While all this talk is very interesting, I'll form an opinion once I see Episode II and III.

Until then I will continue enjoying TPM, ANH, TESB and ROTJ... And see how it's all going to tie together! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

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And if I close my mind in fear,
Please pry it open.

liquidkid
04-11-2001, 01:07 AM
Originally posted by Kurgan:
Or maybe the buzz of all those good Jedi in the room made it too tough to notice feel the lone "evil" one in their midst (since they obviously hadn't a clue).

Kurgan


yeah, and monkeys might fly out of my butt. quick thinking, kurgan.



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http://www.erian.com/cgi-bin/erian.com/picview.pl?/starwars/pictures/luke/luke-blast.jpg
LiQUiDKiD
-UNcouncil Master of Insults, Supreme Chancelor's Hitman, All Around Bully.

P.L.U.R. &lt;&gt; J9K-4-LIFE &lt;&gt; JEDI-4-LIFE &lt;&gt; MCL

oninosensi
04-12-2001, 04:22 AM
Of course they were able to feel Palpatine- they found him squishy and slightly rubbery to the touch and forced him to him himself under all those robes.

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Master of Demons, Defender of Underworlds