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Rogerwilco2002
04-16-2002, 01:20 AM
I must start off by saying that I am puzzled by this sudden evolution of 'honor'. Some are things that I once thought were common courtesy, others are puzzling within themselves. In the context of 'honor' I must say I too have a code of honor. It is very different from some of the things I have seen but it is my code of honor.

As I must start from some point I will start with the fact that I do not bow before a duel. I find it offensive when someone does so because I fail to see how squatting before me upon the beginning of a dueling is giving me any respect. You that do bow before a duel must see it differently so I will respect your code of honor, as I hope you respect mine.

I figure if you can do it in the game, it goes. If the game lets you do something right out of the box in multiplay I don't think I will limit myself to not doing something. I am not using a cheat program or anything, I am simply doing what Raven is letting me do. If Raven later does not want me to do so, they will not let me do so with a patch of some kind. I hate being called a cheater if I throw someone off a ledge with push for example. I don't understand why Raven would give me a ledge and the ability to push someone off of it if they didn't want me to. You may find it honorable to not throw me off a ledge, but please don't call me a cheater just because I too have found my own sense of honor.

I see some people that include always saying "good game" after a battle in their personal honor system. I figure that is just being nice, and being a good sport.

Among my own honor code I find that fun is the most important thing. That is the reason I spent 50 dollars on the game; that is the reason I loaded the game; that is the very reason I play the game; with people half-way across the world no less. I want to have fun. I want others to have fun, and I don't believe limiting myself to the norm for an honor system will add or take away any of that fun. Which is why I want all of you to consider this before you try and bash me for having a subsistant honor system. This is my honor code and I have decided to honor your honor code. It would make you no less than a hypocrite to not respect my honor code when I respect yours.

I simply want to have fun and if you bash me about not bowing or anything else, I wont be having that fun. Getting bashed is not fun, for any reason. Especially when it is not constituted. thank you for taking the time to listen.

Portman
04-16-2002, 01:24 AM
I fully agree! I get tired of all these cries of "honor" and "cheating" just play the $#%@ game and have fun, go gripe to someone who cares! And another thing, don't come up to me and squat down and take a #$@% at my feet, just walk up to me and fight me like a Jedi!

RedMan
04-16-2002, 01:24 AM
um, please use paragraphs. That was really hard to read (and I didn't read all of it, but I did try)
:D

ps2maddenman
04-16-2002, 01:26 AM
After reading your post I agree with you that the "honor" system needs to be done within clans and groups that agree to it beforehand, whining about it in public games is like whizzin into the wind.

Rogerwilco2002
04-16-2002, 01:28 AM
I must apologize. I know I am long winded so I went back and separated it. I dont know if that helped any but I will try and cater to the needs of others as best I can. thank you for pointing that out.

RedMan
04-16-2002, 01:42 AM
Excellant, much easier read.

Though I don't think you have an honour code, you just have a style of play, which you have every right too. This Honour stuff is just boring and way out of context.

If people want this honour stuff then they should adapt the program too it, thats the only way because the program does not support it. If others want to hunt this honour stuff, then thats not an honour code, thats a preference.

If I suppose you name a server with a code that says its only for this style of play then thats good enough as a mod, they just can't get pissed off at people who don't follow it, cause not all will not it... cause its not supported.

I have no Honour code (he he, as if you couldn't figure that), I also play for fun. If someone 'spoils' it on a public server or their own or someone elses, then thats tuff. Unfortunate yes.

From what I've seen from the other Honour code stuff, its just a bunch of people who want to play a certain way and find others, they 'ask' that people respect that code stuff if they are on a public server but when it comes down to it they shouldn't expect it. Nor should the first thing from them be abuse. They are changing something they don't own so they cannot be angry at anyone for not wanting that change.

Thats my rant, I've done it before. Probably keep doing it....

I'd love the word Honour banned from these forums.:) ..or honor, whereever your from. Or however its spelt..

PointMan
04-16-2002, 01:51 AM
This whole thing about honor really makes no sense to me also. I feel that the game gives you what it gives you so that you can use it if you want to. I guess my "honor" is that I will use ANY AND ALL means available to me, and I TOTALLY EXPECT my opponents TO DO THE SAME. This is how I have the most fun, as it takes the most concentration and thought and awareness to be successful.

I will push you off the ledge as often as I want - its your fault for not seeing it coming. Likewise, I expect you to push me off any chance you get - its my fault for not knowing what was coming.

If you are standing around doing nothing, I have no qualms about killing you. If I am standing around doing nothing, I will have no problem with you killing me.

There is a dueling mode - if you want to duel, use it. If you aren't you are all fair game.

If I have a good time, I'll make it known. If I dont, I'll leave.

I will not tolerate anyone coming into a game -- knowing what the settings are -- trying to change the rules to abide by their special "honor code". If the majority of the game is made of people abiding by the code - I still won't abide. I will follow the rules set by the ADMINISTRATOR and noone else.

I won't be rude with my speech though, and I expect that you will not be rude to me becuase you think "I'm a lamer."

I had thought of more stuff to say, but I had to do something, and forgot it. Oh well, I think this pretty much covers it.

Pol Favre
04-16-2002, 01:56 AM
my two cents:

i have a mix of honour systems. i say good fight when someone puts up a good fight, i say good kill when someone kills me. i even have these bound, because i like to be nice and let people know when i respect their skill.


i've been known to kick at least one person from my server for bouncing around continually chopping down in heavy stance, because it got very boring very fast.

and i (gasp) GRIP AND THROW PEOPLE OFF LEDGES. if people are too lazy to do the same to me, they're the ones goin down into the bespin mind shafts. not me. if they don't want to push me away, that's their problem. things like that are in the game for FUN. i don't whine when people grip me and throw ME off ledges.

Jedi Marso
04-16-2002, 01:58 AM
Baka samurai!

I do not fight for honor... I fight to WIN!

-Kinjo

Pol Favre
04-16-2002, 02:18 AM
i think the honour is what makes online games fun, for me. i like to play with those who use it, but i won't shun or bash those who do not follow it.

Twins of Doom
04-16-2002, 02:22 AM
i basically follow the "saberist code" and i make sure to either give somebody a tip, tell them it was a good fight (even if i lose) comment on a good move they did or something like that......and if their really good i see if they want to join the clan i'm working on or if they want to be one of my contacts on msn aim or icq......i try to conduct myself in a way that everybody will have fun in the game....unless their going around being a cheap bastard by attacking people with their sabers off or just plain old annoying everybody and then i'll call a vote to kick them

S!TH!NAT0R
04-16-2002, 02:32 AM
Everybody has thier own views on gameplay. I respect yours so please respect mine. That is all I ask. If you don't agree with the points made within the SC honor code then thats fine. Just don't bash others for agreeing with it and trying to play with more depth to their JK2 gaming experience. For those of us following this code, we will respect each other according to this code. Those that don't, I will play you like any other player. If some of you feels the immature need to purposely gang u on and go after SC players then you're just showing your kiddie age/mentality. Respect our views and we'll respect yours. Plain&Simple!;) :)

Twins of Doom
04-16-2002, 02:35 AM
Originally posted by S!TH!NAT0R
Everybody has thier own views on gameplay. I respect yours so please respect mine. That is all I ask. If you don't agree with the points made within the SC honor code then thats fine. Just don't bash others for agreeing with it and trying to play with more depth to their JK2 gaming experience. For those of us following this code, we will respect each other according to this code. Those that don't, I will play you like any other player. If some of you feels the immature need to purposely gang u on and go after SC players then you're just showing your kiddie age/mentality. Respect our views and we'll respect yours. Plain&Simple!;) :)

i agree, the main "honour" code that i won't respect is the ASC because it's just childish

RedMan
04-16-2002, 02:36 AM
Originally posted by Twins of Doom
....unless their going around being a cheap bastard by attacking people with their sabers off or just plain old annoying everybody and then i'll call a vote to kick them

I believe that you are expressing 'cheap' from your point of view, not everyone elses.
Correct?

Moleculor
04-16-2002, 02:36 AM
Nothin' wrong with pushing people. Somethin' wrong with blanket lightning/drain, or those idiotic bouncing balls of energy that run around swinging wildly, but push is something basic, and if you're stupid enough to jump near a ledge, you're going over.

Rogerwilco2002
04-16-2002, 02:39 AM
Originally posted by Twins of Doom
i basically follow the "saberist code" and i make sure to either give somebody a tip, tell them it was a good fight (even if i lose) comment on a good move they did or something like that......and if their really good i see if they want to join the clan i'm working on or if they want to be one of my contacts on msn aim or icq......i try to conduct myself in a way that everybody will have fun in the game....unless their going around being a cheap bastard by attacking people with their sabers off or just plain old annoying everybody and then i'll call a vote to kick them

See that is the problem though. You say you have an honor system for yourself but then people with other honor systems you call cheap bastards. Just because he chooses to kill no matter what because the game allows him to doesn't mean that that isn't a part of his honor system. He may find honor differently then you but you call him a cheap bastard. The whole point of the game is action and if you get killed while typing you must realize that you are in the middle of a battle field. And for all you realist out there tell me does an invading force into a third world country stop invading when the third world country says they need to pause the war for a second. All is fair in love and war and this is war. You may go ahead and not kill someone while they are just standing there with their sabre down, and i respect that, but you must respect the other persons that chooses to strike you down. He does it for the sake of the game, and for the sake of fun. And tell me does that kill really destroy the fun. Even if it happens 2 or 3 times, are you going to destroy the JK2 cd as if it were to say aol on it? Take pride in your honor system if that is what you want to call it. And Also take pride in that of others, NO MATTER what shape it comes in.

Rogerwilco2002
04-16-2002, 02:43 AM
Originally posted by S!TH!NAT0R
Everybody has thier own views on gameplay. I respect yours so please respect mine. That is all I ask. If you don't agree with the points made within the SC honor code then thats fine. Just don't bash others for agreeing with it and trying to play with more depth to their JK2 gaming experience. For those of us following this code, we will respect each other according to this code. Those that don't, I will play you like any other player. If some of you feels the immature need to purposely gang u on and go after SC players then you're just showing your kiddie age/mentality. Respect our views and we'll respect yours. Plain&Simple!;) :)

Exactly man! Spot on. Respect. That is what I am here preaching. I have in no way made fun of anyones code of honor here. If I have I promise you I have no knowledge of that fact. The only thing I know is that when you call someone a cheap bastard for what they believe in, or honor as you call it, you are becoming the hypocrite I don't want you to become. Respect, people. Come now its not that hard. We are all different and respect is key to get along.

Oh and btw if I have offended anybody I would like to apologize. I do not think I have but I want to cover all bases.

S!TH!NAT0R
04-16-2002, 02:45 AM
You may go ahead and not kill someone while they are just standing there with their sabre down, and i respect that, but you must respect the other persons that chooses to strike you down. He does it for the sake of the game, and for the sake of fun.
....Tell me Wilco, what kind of personal gratification can you achieve from killing a unarmed/immobile player knowing you have just scored a totally cheapunchallenging, and unearned point?
-That's just freakin' lame!
For all of you L-A-M-E-R no-skillz players out there that think its amusing/gratifying to cheap-kill immobile or unarmed players.
-Learn some gameplay skillz and a big huge STFU to ya!!;)

RedMan
04-16-2002, 02:54 AM
Originally posted by S!TH!NAT0R
You may go ahead and not kill someone while they are just standing there with their sabre down, and i respect that, but you must respect the other persons that chooses to strike you down. He does it for the sake of the game, and for the sake of fun.
....Tell me Wilco, what kind of personal gratification can you achieve from killing a unarmed/immobile player knowing you have just scored a totally cheapunchallenging, and unearned point?
-That's just freakin' lame!
For all of you L-A-M-E-R no-skillz players out there that think its amusing/gratifying to cheap-kill immobile or unarmed players.
-Learn some gameplay skillz and a big huge STFU to ya!!;)

Congradulations, you just dragged this conversation down with your well thought out post.
Think about it, was that a decent post. You expressed your point of view, then when others disagree, you said that. Now compare you degrading this with insults to a person running through a game hacking and slaying everything. Including a person standing there.

Good one!

How bout having a go and editing it. Just try it

Chewie Bakker
04-16-2002, 02:55 AM
I think there are certain conventions that should be followed to ensure that everybody has a good time.

And another thing, don't come up to me and squat down and take a #$@% at my feet, just walk up to me and fight me like a Jedi!
I won't squat, maybe look down in a slight bow if they bow to me, and if they sit there for 15 minutes, just have taunt bound to a key and taunt them and re-ignite your saber. If people are bowing make sure it's quick. There's nothing more aggrivating than sitting in a packed duel server watching two Jedi staring at the ground like it's some sort of miracle (okay Raven, sorry, the textures are cool)

Saying "good fight" and "nice move" where applicable just lets the other person know that you've enjoyed the fight, and if they kill you with a brilliant strategy.

I'm not against been hurled off a ledge if I'm stupid enough to be caught in a position to do so, but I think what most people hate is when people camp and Force push people off the ledges and do nothing else. I mean, come on, use your imagination a bit.

I'm not against gun usage (though I think it's weird that you need Force points for saber skill and not with guns, giving gunners an advantage) as long as the gunners don't overuse the one weapon. There's 8 guns/launchers and 3 explosives. The score's useless if all you've done is spam the map with explosives. I respect skill over scores. That goes for spinning saberists too.

The basic gist is that little things like that will make the game more enjoyable for those who participate (and spectate).

:yobi:

Rogerwilco2002
04-16-2002, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by S!TH!NAT0R
You may go ahead and not kill someone while they are just standing there with their sabre down, and i respect that, but you must respect the other persons that chooses to strike you down. He does it for the sake of the game, and for the sake of fun.
....Tell me Wilco, what kind of personal gratification can you achieve from killing a unarmed/immobile player knowing you have just scored a totally cheapunchallenging, and unearned point?
-That's just freakin' lame!
For all of you L-A-M-E-R no-skillz players out there that think its amusing/gratifying to cheap-kill immobile or unarmed players.
-Learn some gameplay skillz and a big huge STFU to ya!!;)

And here I thought you were getting it. The point is not the action, but the respect between people's beliefs. If he believes that killing an unarmed person will make him feel better than neither of us can stop him. The fact is that no matter what it is, there has to be a mutual respect between that honor. And right now by calling that person a lamer, whoever he is, you aren't showing him an respect. The sooner you realize that it is irrelevant what the honor or moral code is the sooner you realize the whole point of this thread. What people do is what they do. If it isn't right then Raven will take notice and stop it at the source. Which just happens to be the source code of the game. I have referred to it as 'honor' for quite a while so people would recognize what I am talking about but what it all really is (and i mean all of it), is simply this: style. Whatever style you play is how you do it. The game allows a person to be killed while in the console or typing something for a reason or none. And for that reason that it is in fact a part of the game I will take whatever actions needed to win. Not cheating, but what the game allows. If you can't respect my style, or anyone elses, then why should I respect yours? Tell me that right now.

Essobie
04-16-2002, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by S!TH!NAT0R
You may go ahead and not kill someone while they are just standing there with their sabre down, and i respect that, but you must respect the other persons that chooses to strike you down. He does it for the sake of the game, and for the sake of fun.
....Tell me Wilco, what kind of personal gratification can you achieve from killing a unarmed/immobile player knowing you have just scored a totally cheapunchallenging, and unearned point?
-That's just freakin' lame!
For all of you L-A-M-E-R no-skillz players out there that think its amusing/gratifying to cheap-kill immobile or unarmed players.
-Learn some gameplay skillz and a big huge STFU to ya!!;)

If you are on a server, you have no business being immobile and unarmed. The only time you should be immobile and unarmed is while you are posting something on this messageboard... if you are on a server, play the game.

If I don't kill the moron sitting on a spawn point with his saber off, someone else will... so it might as well be me getting the points.

Essobie

p.s. People who do this, like myself, do not nessesarily have any lack of "skillz". We just don't get caught up in the "live action role playing" that a lot of the people on this forum do. Go wrap a peice of PVC with padding and duct tape and let me play my game.

PointMan
04-16-2002, 03:00 AM
....Tell me Wilco, what kind of personal gratification can you achieve from killing a unarmed/immobile player knowing you have just scored a totally cheapunchallenging, and unearned point?
-That's just freakin' lame!
For all of you L-A-M-E-R no-skillz players out there that think its amusing/gratifying to cheap-kill immobile or unarmed players.
-Learn some gameplay skillz and a big huge STFU to ya!!

Really, S!th, what's the game about?

Spending your entire life trying to figure out how to "kill" every other guy in a game, and stressing over it every single time you "die" or get killed?

Or is the purpose of the game

To just give everyone something that they can enjoy doing, regardless of their "skillz" or if they are "lame." I don't even understand why people think that being called a "lamer" affects them in any way/shape/form.

I mean there ARE people out there that may not have near the "skillz" that you do (obviously, I'm assuming that you have them), but thats becuase they aren't wasting their life trying to get some empty reputation at being a good game player. They are just trying to have fun, and aren't affected by being "killed." These people are the true masters of the game.

Rogerwilco2002
04-16-2002, 03:05 AM
Also let me use Chewie Bakker here as an example for a moment. If you mind too much Chewie ill get rid of this post.

Anyway he just stated all the things for him that he thought made the game fun. I don't agree with some of them and some of them I do. That point is irrelevant though. The whole point is that even though our view points are different I still respect his playing style and his opinion just because he has it. I am not going to make fun of him or anything because he has different views. Sure if he is standing still I may kill him. He may not like it but I will never make fun of him for not liking it. This is just an example. And hopefully he will respect the fact that I choose to kill him while he types or whatever. Not that he has to like it, but respect it would be nice. Because I respected him of course. It works the other way as well. I may for example not like getting drained all the time, but I respect the person doing it just because I want to be respected in return.

This comes down really to the whole point of thie whole thread....

Enough talk about honor and what should be right and what is honorable. Do what you do.

RedMan
04-16-2002, 03:08 AM
Ha :p
Until the poor guy (S!TH!NAT0R) posts again, I think he's been hammered enough.
Glad to see Honour is changing to Style.
Probably get sick of that word soon too. :rolleyes:

Saint Nuke
04-16-2002, 03:58 AM
I have to agree with S!TH on some points. But should there be a structured code? Dunno, I have not seen one yet. But there should be common courtesy. Any time I've accidentally slashed someone while they challenged me I've apologized because I feel lame for it, mistake or not. I don't see how anyone could possibly make a game career out of it and call themselves good with a straight face. It's like any game I guess, you can rack up 50 kills spawn killing/cheese killing or you can do it with some honor/respect/<place word here>.

It doesn't really matter, in time these things get worked out. People who hinge thier victory on 1 shot kills (common counters will come up more and more) and killing AFK people, trash talkers ect. will either adapt and overcome or become another car in the endless train "eh, he's OK, but not good really" players. People with actual skill will get to be more known and respected as time goes on. But take a loss as a learning experience....not as a springboard to complain.

I pay my respect to my opponents when applicable. A good or even average player who is cool about it gets my respect, a "L33T d00d" ("n00b y0u 5ux0r5, u ju5t g0t 0w3d by my l1ght54b3r") won't earn my respect no matter how good they play. Unfortunately those mutants are everywhere (except real life).

As for arguing if killing someone who is facing a wall saber closed (AFK or putting out a cigarette) is honorable or not "depends on what a person calls honorable" argument. How can that be an argument? It reminds me of the Bill Clinton trials "is oral secks adultry?" OF COURSE IT IS! Call it just having fun, playing a game, fraglust ect. not one person's version of honor. It's not honor any way you slice it.

Above all, have fun, it's just game. In time no one will remeber if D4rth L33td00d could frag JediGoat 25 times a match, they'll just remember D4rth was an @$$ and JediGoat was cool. The day i read "Guy racks up 80 frags, gets $1 million and all the women he wants" I'll take it seriously. Until then I'm just gonna wall run, taunt my friends over and over, slash Z for Zorro into walls and have fun with the people I like.

Things I learned while having fun:
1) How to force jump on a no force server: Throw a thermal detonator at your feet and wait :)
2) Zorro can be slashed into walls pretty fast with practice.
3) Running around saber closed hitting taunt over and over will get lots of people chasing and slashing at you, which helps those dodge skills
4) You don't get a frag count for taking out windows....but those windows know who thier daddy is when it's all over.
5) Jedi mind trick combined with taunt works well against those jumpy players.
6) You can make up just about anything and (some) people will believe it :p (CTF example: PADAWAN: What do I do with our flag? I'm at our base and nothing is happening. Me: Did you kill our flag carrier yet? The flag carrier has to before returning the flag, he's in our base, come get him.)
7) Racking up frags actually gets sort of boring after a while.

Rogerwilco2002
04-16-2002, 04:15 AM
Saint Nuke I am just glad you get the overall picture.

Fun

Respect

And yes it is infact just a game. I am done arguing with people for tonight though. I'll pick up again though cause I have to defend my thread. hehe

igor
04-16-2002, 06:01 AM
My honor code is to be a good sport, don't get pissed, and have fun.

There are too many things in this world to get worked up over, and a game is very very low on my list.

Saint Nuke
04-16-2002, 06:14 AM
Well Igor, video games are at the TOP of my list! I think we should elect video games as our next president, I'm getting a JK2 tatoo on my butt tommorrow!
I'm changing my name to video games :)

Good point Igor hehe

S!TH!NAT0R
04-16-2002, 06:17 AM
But there should be common courtesy. Any time I've accidentally slashed someone while they challenged me I've apologized because I feel lame for it, mistake or not. I don't see how anyone could possibly make a game career out of it and call themselves good with a straight face. It's like any game I guess, you can rack up 50 kills spawn killing/cheese killing or you can do it with some honor/respect/<place word here>.
.......well, thats what this code is all about. Common courtesy and Respect for fellow players. Those of you that bash me and others for agreeing with that idea do so because the code is against lousy/cheap players like yourselves.....and you don't like it.
-To me, common courtesy means not running up and killing an immobile player just because they're immobile at the moment or offering someone a duel then killing them after they run up to you to accept because you think it's just so goddamn funny. -It seems to me there's alot of kids here and maybe thats the problem......
....MATURITY vs. IMMATURITY. -Propose an idea and here comes all the pre-teen/teen immature *******s to flame with thier over-abnoxious selves. -It looks like I picked the wrong damn forum to get involved into a game because obviously this is nothing more than a good game forum ruined by 90% immature kiddies! :rolleyes: -I am over and done with this issue and I still can't believe I goy mildly worked up over something as trifle as this. .........I am done:rolleyes:

Trienco
04-16-2002, 08:18 AM
i really wonder. why is everybody insulted if you say it is a cheap kill? there's a simple definition of cheap: it doesnt cost much. so in a game everything that doesnt require risk or skill is cheap. i'm cheap too, so what? if somebody is attacking with the headless chicken style i either back away and throw or kill him with a nice red swing.
just dont complain if people call it cheap to kill someone who's not at the pc, busy typing or challenging someone. it IS cheap because it doesnt require skill and you never risked to be killed by him. just like kasparov beating a 6 year old child in chess is cheap.
if you feel insulted by that, your problem. just ask yourself: if it's not cheap why is it so damn easy?

Kippla
04-16-2002, 09:38 AM
If someone bows to me I'll bow back. Common curtesy. But otherwise I won't. I think it just slows the game down and can get tedius.

Also, when I start a duel I go pure saber. And only use forces when they are used on me first. This isn't because of some honour b/s. I do this purely for the challenge. Just jumping in going all out on someone seems pretty boring to me. I much prefer fighting with the person on their own level. Fights are definately more interesting and varied this way. And the win feels a lot better because you worked hard for it. (I know how many heal addicts are out there, a cold turky win can feel real good :D ) also, I've never had an opponent accuse me of lame fighting, because since I'm always only using the same tactics as them, they can't complain, and they usually agree it was a much more enjoyable fight.

So no, I don't kill people when they have their saber down, bowing etc. coz if I did, I wouldn't enjoy the kill as much because I wouldn't feel like I worked for it. So honour? b/s. It's just my personal style of play, which I do because I find it makes for a more enjoyable game. I think honour is getting confused with just personal preference of play (each to their own). Shudup and go play some jedi :D

TasamBladefire
04-16-2002, 11:29 AM
I have an enjoy-the game state of mind. Being pushed off the ledge <does> piss me off. Why? Because I wont push you off, its not gratifying at <all!> If im going to take someone down, im going to do it with a saber through their gut', or a blaster bolt between the eyes, not by pushing you off, getting an insta-kill. If you grip me, and walk to a pit(deathstar level for example) and throw me in, nice one, thats a good way to do it, it actually involves a <little> skill! But on Narshadda Streets, or Warring Sides, if you push me off, you wont see the end of me. I will snipe you so many times you leave the server. 'Well thats a n00b thing to do!' Well, perhaps it is, but I cant stand force push. The only time I think force pushing is relativley honorable, is using it to knock someone down and rush em. If you would rather go the no-skills way of doing things, fine, push me off the ledges ALL you want, It will piss me off, but ill be ok. Why? Because as soon as we get to the next map that isnt ledge-packed, im gonna skin you.

And you who say you have a 'different' code of honor, as in not bowing, and killing people who are un-armed, well, thats not honor fellas, thats blatant <dis>honor. If you attack me when my saber is off, whats that say about you? It says you are horribly dishonorable, because what does it mean when there are saber fights going on all over the level, and someone has their lightsaber sheathed? It means im looking for a duel. If your one of those folks who attacks the idle/un-armed, well you probobally had a blank stare on your face as you read that, knowing absolutley nothing about a 'duel'.

And about killing people who are idle on a spawn point....dont worry about t3h 'p0in7', let the other n00bs get the fr33bi3. You can hold yourself high with integrety and honor, and wait for the poor CI guy to start moving, and then challenge em, or just rush em. Why are you so worried about points anyway? You get nothing from winning a match but, well, nothing.

Whoever said 'I play for skill not points' I think you have the perfect idea of how this game should pe played, in order for <everyone!> to enjoy it to its absolute fullest. Playing dishonorably so that <YOU> may enjoy it too its fullest, is downright wrong, you dont take into account ANYONE else you play with, exept perhaps your friends, who I doubt you have any of, because you would still kill them when they are idle, or you would run around strong-jump-slashing them the whole time like you do everyone else. (to nobody specific, that last statement)

Anyway, I play with honor, if you have a problem with it, fine, chase me around the level pushing me off, or kill me when im afk, or kill me when im waiting for a challenge, its fine with me. Just know, you WONT see an end to me, or 'Sabered by Tasam' on your screen. And if you complain to me that im picking you as a target, so be it, you deserved it by being dishonorable.

TasamBladefire
04-16-2002, 11:34 AM
Having honor IS a style of play son. Your being hypocritcial if you say you have your own style of play, and tell us to shut up about honor b/s, when in fact, it IS a style of play.

May G0rd have mercy on your n00b soul.(Bahaha :D )

D66
04-16-2002, 11:35 AM
Oh I find force push on Nar-Shadda Streets to be VERY gratifing!

You sir have just said that you expect ME to play the game YOUR way. Sorry. Aint happening. You want to try and hound me after I push you... BRING IT.
You'll just find yourself pushed more

Each of us paid for this game... Each of us has a right to use whatever we see fit in a FFA server. If You don't want to use certin tactics.. fine don't use them, but understand that just because YOU don't do something dosent mean that NO ONE should.

TasamBladefire
04-16-2002, 11:46 AM
Oh well how skilled do you think you are? When you spend so much time pushing and pulling people around like a little child, I spend my time fighting saber combat, practicing and honing my skills, not WASTING my time getting CHEAP, no-skill pre-req kills.

Your the prime example of the little n00bs we have been talking about over 50 THOUSAND topics. You just told me you would just keep pushing me when I come after you. That is very comical.

While you are running around like a headless chicken, pushing the hell out of me, ill just go fight with someone else, and then when you, as im sure you will, come up and try to push me off during our fight, ill just put on a little force absorb, and kill that fella, and then come over to you, and slice through your neck, as you wonder why I didnt fall off. And then, on the next map, when there arent any ledges for your pitiful little self to enjoy pushing people off of, I will obliterate you time and again, and you will start crying to your mommy.

I dont expect you to play how I play, only how you play determines how many times I beat the living tar out of you.

D66
04-16-2002, 12:22 PM
if you push me off, you wont see the end of me. I will snipe you so many times you leave the server

Your words. If you pull that on me
1) I doubt I would notice
2) I'm always up for a 1 on 1 challenge, even on a croweded server

My comment was just a reaction to YOUR above statement.

My skills are plenty honed. On non-ledge maps I hve NO problem standing up for myself. But YOU just need to understand that Push is in the game due to a decision by the developers. Nar-Shadda is designed as a Push-pull-grip fest. The Map just BEGS for pushing. What the hell did you think the map designer was thinking when he designed all those narrow catwalks and long falls?
Then again, He's the level designer so his "vision" should not dictate HOW the player plays. None the less, His vision does have some bearing on the absurdity of your argument. Complaining about being pushed off a ledge on Nar-Shadda, is like complaining about High Jumps in the Half-Life map Bounce, or complaining about Snipers on the UT map Facing_worlds, Or Complaining about being knocked off the catwalk in the original JK map "Bespin Mining Station"
You see, Nar-Shadda is a CONCEPT map... The concept i lots of easy falls and precarious walkways. Add Push, pull, grip to the mix and you have pure bedlam. I have had Great fun getting pushed and pushing on Nar-Shada. The map Itself is a weapon. And when the map is being used properly, it's hilarious.

Now, in responce to your classification of me as
the prime example of the little n00bs
I'll have you know that
I've direct connected for 1v1 Doom
I had a Ten account for Duke Nukem
I was on the zone for X-wing vs Tie
I knew When and where to alt-Fire the Rail on Bespin Mining to catch the ledge hider in JKI
I knew the route to run to dominate Canyon Oasis
I *****ed about the Carbonite Rifle in MOTS
I Knew the timing of the air-strike switch on the 1/2 Life map Crossfire
I know the location of all the items for a True-shot bow in Everquest
I know When to use the Alt-Fire with the Flack in Unreal
I can ski a heavy across a Tribes map faster than an APC
I can dodge a Mechwarrior III Missile Salvo w/o thinking
I have felt the glee of a head-bite in AVP
I know that there is no Redemer on CTF_November
I have watched helplessly a my friends were sucked into Counterstrike
I have run a perfect Cap-Route on Raindance in Tribes 2
I have learned NOT to use the MG42s on Omaha in MOHAA
I know the Timing of a Heavy swing, The Jump-flip of Medium, and when to use Light

I am D66
I am a PC gamer.
So, I'll repeat myself
Bring IT!

H.B.M.C.
04-16-2002, 12:25 PM
I'm all for an Honour code, it's a cool idea! Jedi have 'em. Dark Jedi have 'em! Hell, even Sith have 'em!

But just don't try and apply it to games that are specifically designed to have people running around blasting each other with guns, sabres and force powers. As someone said, it's like pissin' into the wind!

BYE

Spider AL
04-16-2002, 01:08 PM
Well, it's refreshing to see people with a code of honour. I've had one since the early days of JK1, and it's been a great help.

But, people here shouldn't confuse such trivial things as bowing (or, more accurately, squatting in a constipated manner) before a duel, with real issues of honour. Honour is about not cheating... and it's about being courteous in word and deed to others. I look at this thread, and I see most of the people claiming to have honour, screaming "j00 l@m0rz!!11" at those with other viewpoints to them. This is not the way of honour. Shape up, you dishonourable insulting types!

Dvlos
04-16-2002, 01:45 PM
Whining about push is stupid, whining about anything in the game is dumb. OBviously if its grossly unbalanced it will be patched.

I believe I posted only in this one guys thread about saber throw...and an opponent constantly using the same tactic over and over and over and over... you get the idea.

Yes, even in the original JK you could camp. THe original force protection was rediculous...but people still used it... For people that overuse one tactic, I THINK, they ruin the game, but luckily this game has multiple counters to any one tactic, and those that do only ONE strat at a time will pay for it.

For example, usually on FF FFA Saber games, if ther is a fray going on (3 or more peeps engaged in Saber fights) I will just hop in, I know there is a large chance I will get nailed from the back, or force lightnin'ed to death by like 5 people..

However when I see 2 people battling it out I usually ignore them, I personally can't stand it when I am engaged in a good saber fight, and I win it with only 2-10 health, and some loser just runs up behind me and hacks/shoots me in the back for an easy kill.. Yes I know its part of a FFA, its just stupid.. and will usually result in me chasing them around for the rest of the match using anything at my disposal guns, force, etc... to exact a penance, if you will.

Also, opponents that repeatedly run away from a fight, yes another tactic, to get health and shields, and run back (camping one spot), or hiding in a corner near a ledge to just push/grip someone into a cavern.. GOOD SHOW!! I commend you on your lack of vision, don't be surprised when I run back 2 seconds later with a rocket aimed at your head...Or if everytime you turn around there are 2-3 angry people on a server just plain tag teaming you for being 2 dimensional.

--------------------------

I have found that the BEST players do not sink to these tactics, and the saber duels or games that I have played against them are all memorable. I find myself changing saber stances, and force powers, at least 1-2 times during a match, it amazes me when I hop on servers and I see people just using heavy, slash slash button mash - noW RUN FOR YOUR LIVES!! - and THAT's it...

Didn't anyone read any reviews/manuals/guides/THIS SITE when it comes to info on the game? Any review will tell you there are different styles and moves, and to those that say Fast Style is useless I say - You're Wrong.. Maybe your only looking for a fast kill, but against someone using a heavy stance .. that's real good, sometimes fast is the best option... In any case I would just like to see more people taking the time to investigate this site, and information on the saber moves, and get INTO the game not just be into being an ass.

UniKorn
04-16-2002, 01:54 PM
My only code is not to kill people that are chatting and people that are idle. The rest dies, no matter what they are doing. Don't join a weapons server if you only want to fight with your saber. And if you do join, don't start shouting at those who do, they are playing where they should, you are not.

TheDarkSide
04-16-2002, 02:14 PM
things have gotten slightly out of hand on the forum. :)

What started out as a general rant against those who 'roleplay' or those who expected the game to be more Star Wars like and less Quake like was responded to with a battle cry of honor, which launched into a discussion of honor, which spawned codes of honor, in turn launching an code of anti-honor, etc etc

If you step back and look at the big picture, it's pretty laughable to see all this commotion over a GAME.

That being said, let me throw my 2 cents in here:

I don't subscribe to any code of honor, but act honorably. I don't attack people who obviously are 1) looking for a duel , 2) engaged in a duel, or 3) have their saber down.
As a light Jedi, I dont have access to grip/drain/lightning, but will push and pull on Nar Shaddaa streets. It's obvious the level was designed for it.

I think we're getting confused and signals crossed about who is being complained about and what not. It's fairly obvious to me that SpiderAl and D66 on Nar Shadaa Streets don't camp out in one small area of the map using the same tactic over and over. It's these type things that most ppl who "complain" are referring to. I try not to whine, but admittedly a whine will slip out every now and then.

The key is that for every tactic out there there is a counter tactic. Granted, I tend to agree that someone who racks up ALL their kills using push on NS streets is what I would call "cheap", but at the same time, Absorb negates his tactic, and Drain negates his tactic. When I find someone doing something I deem "cheap", I tend to try to learn them a lesson :) It's pretty gratifying. There is nothing yet in this game that is truly imbalanced to the point where it ruins the game. Everything from drain-whoring to heavy combo jumping to even *gasp* bunny...er I mean strafe jumping has a counter. Sometimes that counter is just having more skill than that guy. That doesn't mean it's imbalanced, it should force you to try to improve your own skills. (Heck, it's what our whole economy is based on)

As a final sidenote, I'd like to mention that for me at least my internal code of honor is checked at the door for CTF. I will play with respect, but if you have my flag in Bespin streets, I will use every tactic, weapon or force power in my disposal to get it back. Even if it means my death....the team comes way above the individual.


For a final final sidenote, many people may ask, why play a game with a certain code of honor anyways...just win baby is the name of the game for FPS DM! For me, I've played it that way, and my days of playing it that way are over. It's not that its too easy, but more that it's not enough of a challenge. Part of why I play games is for the challenge, and find more fun winning in a challenging way, then winning by the path of least resistance. Even the UT/quake FPS zealots ;) (j/k!) must surely agree what was more satisfying to you, taking out a bunch of people with a redeemer inside the flag base on Facing Worlds, or chasing the flag runner halfway across the map, run-sniping his escorts down and then crouching down for the final shot that saves your flag?

TDS

JaG|Kaiser
04-16-2002, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Rogerwilco2002
I must apologize. I know I am long winded so I went back and separated it. I dont know if that helped any but I will try and cater to the needs of others as best I can. thank you for pointing that out.

At first I was going to flame you, but then I read your post. I think your post was dead on. Well done.

Zahn
04-16-2002, 03:05 PM
Such a touchy subject. I think that if a common courtesy has been established, and is in use on a server, why not follow it? Private servers especially. But trying to enforce some code of conduct on a public server is just shy of futile.

The reason I say that is because there are always going to be d00dZ that hop in and try to ruin the game for the rest.

Personally, I will go along with the majority of the server, and give my fellow players the same respect that I am given. If the server is too immature or too many d00dZ, hey...there are more servers out there.

I'll tag my character with the -SC-. I enjoy saber only battles without fear of being gang-banged by sI+|-|/\/\@s+3r and his "clan" of goons.

Will the -SC- work? Who knows, but at least I'll know with some degree of certainty that if I see another with -SC- that It'll be a one on one, fair fight.

In all honesty though, I think that the only real way to enforce this kind of conduct is through private servers that are noted somehow that a Code of Conduct is in effect.

Jiro Kage
04-16-2002, 03:09 PM
Trying to force someone to your code is wrong, correct. But humoring someone for their code is just a nice thing to do. And people that say there are no ethics in games are wrong - for instance, isn't it lame in DM to hit someone with a console or talk bubble over their head?

Just humor those people as long as it doesn't inconvenience you, that's all that people are asking.

peeej
04-16-2002, 03:42 PM
Originally posted by TheDarkSide

Sometimes that counter is just having more skill than that guy.

Having more skill is not a counter. If one of the requirements for the balancing of this game is to just have more skill, then it's not balanced at all. To balance a game, you hafto assume that the people using the tactics are of exactly equal skill. You can't design a tactic and say "ok the counter for this is that the other guy has to be a better player".

In other words if one player gets killed repeatedly by another player of equal skill by using a certain tactic that can only be countered by skill, then that tactic is out of balance.


I think this is where all this honor controversey is coming from. The honorable-saber players think to themselves "well if I did THAT, then of course I would win. But I'm only using my saber." They want to be able to rely solely on their saber to counter all other tactics, but it doesn't work because that would put the saber out of balance.

So they make a saber-only guild to try to make their idea of a super-powerful movie-like sabre a reality. They give the saber more power by teaming up with other sabrists against a single gun user.

Personally I would love to have a saber that could counter all other tactics like in the movies, but it isn't there because the game has to be balanced to be fun. So since the game is balanced, the only way for me to win is to use the designed counter tactics, or to increase my skill far beyond the competition to the point where I need only my lightsaber.

Taicat
04-16-2002, 03:42 PM
IMO, FFA implies anything goes. Choose your style, and play with it.

If that includes the things that -SC- are about, fine. If you don't agree with that, fine.

Sometimes I bow, sometimes I don't. I don't bash anyone for either approach, I just wanna play! LOL.

I play to unwind after a hard day's work. Getting caught up in how other people approach the game (outside of fighting tactics) is counter to that if I find myself being stressed by it. So I just play, and leave it at that...

LInKINParkD00D
04-16-2002, 03:58 PM
yo where u get ur hax from?

Bludshot
04-16-2002, 05:25 PM
I run around with my saber off most of the time. If the server is basically 1v1 duels, I'll abide by the "saber off=don't attack" rule. Otherwise, I assume that, like me, the other people have figured out that the saber is too damn visible and noisy. Feel free to frag me. I do not consider a Jedi with a retracted saber to be "unarmed".

A Jedi is never unarmed. If you are in an FFA server that is not labeled as a duel server, then do not go AFK, go spectator. Otherwise, expect to be killed. If you are in a CTF server, expect to be killed, period.

OK. That sounded cocky. How about... expect somebody to TRY to kill you.

I do not mind if you decide to hunt me specifically for an entire map. Usually that means constant fun. It's when everybody is standing around watching 1-2 duels that the excitement diminishes. I hate having to squat like a chimp looking for a grooming just to get someone to fight me.

Don't get me wrong. When I'm in the mood, I'll gladly take part in the whole ritual thing for forceless duels. There is a time and a place for everything.

TheDarkSide
04-16-2002, 05:58 PM
Having more skill is not a counter. If one of the requirements for the balancing of this game is to just have more skill, then it's not balanced at all.

I guess I wasn't very clear in my first post...when I say more skill, I meant to imply that you need to have more skill than you currently possess, not necessarily more skill than the guy you're up against. What I was getting at was that the counters themselves may take more skill than you currently have at your disposal. You may still feel the same that if an easy tactic requires a high skill level to counteract, it's an imbalance. As long as that counter doesn't require a hack or cheat and is reasonably possible to obtain, to me it is not an imbalance. Also keep in mind, that the path you choose also affects what you can do. Let me revise my earlier statement. Between equally skilled players, there is no tactic in JK2 that doesn't have a counter. There is no uber move, swing, combo, force power that is purely unbeatable. NONE.

If you are getting beat constantly by the drain/grip and throwers, or the hvy kill jumpers, then at best you can say, with your force setup and selection, and server setup, combined with your personal playing skills is not balanced with the other guys force set up and selection and his playing skills.

Where JK2 gets more complicated balance wise is the selection of force powers, and the Jedi Master force pool that most servers are set to, not to mention gametype Best way to beat a Drain? Absorb and take care of business before it runs out. To do that, you will need some skills. That's for a light jedi. For dark siders, go after him with drain. If you're not below using a gun, that is probably the #1 best way to take care of a drainer.

To balance a game, you hafto assume that the people using the tactics are of exactly equal skill. You can't design a tactic and say "ok the counter for this is that the other guy has to be a better player".

Sure you can. How to beat a skilled heavy stance death blow jumper? Go to med stance and move out of the way give him he|| when he lands. If you're light its more difficult, if you're dark, do what ever you want, lightning combined with some swats of the saber. It's not the easiest thing in the world. The way that move is coded, with the faulty collision detection, ability to spin on the ground and do damage while ur saber is stuck in the ground, it definitely takes some skill. But it is a counter. And that's just one of the possible counters. Don't forget if you're on a map with a ledge or a long fall, those heavy jumpers are EXTREMELY vulnerable to push :)

In other words if one player gets killed repeatedly by another player of equal skill by using a certain tactic that can only be countered by skill, then that tactic is out of balance.


I think there are way too many variables in the balance equation for JK2 to say this definitively. Sure you have equal skills, but what about a force setup? Force powers are designed to counter other powers, but you can only have so many of them. If you have absorb at your disposal, and you don't allocate any force points to it because say you wanted to max out mindtrick or team heal, can you say that any other force power is imbalanced? My original point still stands...every tactic in JK2 has a counter. It's more a matter I think of some people (myself included at times) wanting THEIR setup to be able to counter everything, and the game isn't set up like that.

TDS

Hiteche5
04-16-2002, 07:49 PM
Well I think the bowing thing can get outta hand in a FFA server...there is other people who might be trying to initiate a duel so get the duel over with quick is what I say. But in a duel server..."when in Rome..." you know the rest..In an FFA server I try to follow the same thing but I do not expect people to not take a swipe at me or a free shot. I do think to myself "Did that guy really have to put half an ammo pack in an opponent that was not moving!" but I won't fault them. For some winning is very important. There is days that I feel like trying to be a Jedi without using weapons and guns and being honorable is not very satisfying...I want to win!! But most of the time I have fun meeting up with someone in a server and having a good duel or trying to get the upperhand on gunners with just my saber. I'm a mediocre player and a mediocre kinda guy when it comes down to it.

peeej
04-16-2002, 08:34 PM
I get what you mean when you say "more skill" now. Before I thought you meant more skill than the opposition, not more skill than you have yourself.

Also when I said "the counter for this is that the other guy has to be a better player", I meant a better player than his opposition, not better than he currently is himself lol.

So I agree with what you say by your interpretation, but I also stand by what I said. A game is not balanced if a lower-skill person can beat a higher-skill person consistently.

Also I don't think JO is unbalanced. Just clearing that up if I implied otherwise.

Rogerwilco2002
04-16-2002, 09:36 PM
After coming back and reading what you guys have put in the thread I started, I feel that something that needs to be said was said but some of you failed to get the bigger picture.

I am glad that at least some of (and thank you much for understanding the point I was making) got the point that I was pointing out. Which for those of you that still haven't gotten it I will point on one last time in 'ol' school' format.

-It a game.
-It made fo' fun.
-Makin' fun o' somebody no make it no mo' fun.
-Respect needed to prevent making fun of someone

You are not respecting someone by calling them a cheap bastard even if they didn't respect you. Of course I don't think anything I can say will make you realize this because you guys that are caught up in your better than thou attitude are not going to stop disrespecting people. And you know how you do it. You do it by saying that your style is better than theirs in a variety of ways. You say that the way you do it is the way it is done. Your personal honor code turns into what you expect from everyone.

The bottom line is this. Even if they do what you call a 'cheap kill' does it physically kill you to show your the bigger man and not come on the forum and flame people that do what you have named a 'cheap kill'? I guess you just can't help but flame people with different morals than you. Thank all of you that come on here and flame people, you are the reason that games become unfun.

I in no way flamed anyone. I just tried to point out the failed logic that has come over this community of 'gamers'. I didn't judge you for your code of 'honor' and some of you judged me for mine. I am sick of hearing of this honor some of you use to hide behind, so I am going to be glad when this either blows over or another game with a nicer community comes out. Cause it is the people that have not show respect for others that has ruined the experience of this game for me.

PointMan
04-17-2002, 03:06 AM
Hey, if everyone just tries to have fun for themselves, and stops giving a rat's ass about ANYONE else, then everyone will have fun.


That is my theory.

Now, go out... and live it.

And get out of my sight.