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View Full Version : Strong Stance 1 hit kill rant!


Awol
04-16-2002, 12:57 AM
This is a rant and thats all it is. I hate teh Strong Stance 1 hit kill. But let me state its not the premiss of the 1 hit kill, they can keep that there along with strong stance the way it is. But for the love of god atleast make the SS 1 hit kill hit to get a one hit kill!!!!!!!

I love dying instantly just because someone jumped over me with their own lightsaber behind them, or better yet having them go off to the side of me way out of reach for my saber but yet it can hit me.

I don't hate the 1 hit kill move. Its to so slow and you can see it coming from a mile away, I just hate the fact that it doesn't need to hit to kill.

End of my rant, ignore me or flame me like I care.


Awol

Twins of Doom
04-16-2002, 01:03 AM
just jump back and it won't hit you......as i said in another post, it's so slow and easy to see that's it's easy to avoid.....i've fought one guy who just kept on using it and i just go on medium and attack, back up attack, back up, not my fault that they're to stupid to stop using it

MrCoulomb
04-16-2002, 01:21 AM
I see what he's saying. More than any other move it seems to hit you even when the blade isnt touching, so it can be at the end of the move, you think you've dodged it, and you move forward and die for some odd reason. And it also seems to kill you if the blade just *tickles* you.

I think what he's saying is sure- keep the move, but make the damage a bit more accurate for it, because at the moment it doesnt seem to work right.

acdcfanbill
04-16-2002, 03:07 AM
i dont know, i dotn seem to have any more problems than with sabre throw or other stance swings... when i get hit by a sabre throw that passed 10 feet from me, i dont feel bad Strong Stancing the thrower:D plus, a good thrower can keep you at bay and eventially kill ya as long as you dont have heal... so i guess i dont think i see anything wrong with the way it is... if you play on a LAN then the outragious reach of the sabre is greatly reduced, lag is a big part...

TiE23
04-16-2002, 03:23 AM
Sometimes strong stance is very useful. I can get a guy before he even hits me. It has great distant swings.

toolboi
04-16-2002, 03:41 AM
3 problems I have with red stance:

1. it does 100% health dammage. I can see it doing 95 health damage, but 100 is too strong.

2. It can hit farther than the blade. Too often have I been a good 10 (in game) feet from another player only to have his swing kill me.

3. You can rotate durring the SS one hit kill move. I would have no problems with this normally, but if the blade is on the ground and it stubs you on the toe, or you step on it, then you die. All the strong stance player has to do is keep it pointed at you the whole time and you cant coutner with your saber.
Now you may sugest saber throw, yes this is how I kill these people, that and push, but what about no force servers? It makes leapNoobs virtual drednaughts (sp?).

Sartori
04-16-2002, 03:56 AM
you shouldn’t have to always step back it should be possible to step sideways out of range of the one dimensional down stroke and yet still be in range to hit with a horizontal slash.

unfortunately this is not the case.

after some experimentation you have to move out almost 1 1/2 times the width of th character (despite the "fact" that the lightsabre is only and inch wide) and then move back in to connect with your side slash.

to much.

this attack should be devastating, but it should also leave you wide open for a counter attack if you miss.

acdcfanbill
04-16-2002, 05:07 AM
if a SS person does the one hit kill move, push them :D they go flying... wait, why am i telling you this, im a SS person... d'oh!:D

Saint Nuke
04-16-2002, 05:10 AM
I usually just run INTO it and die, to save myself the trivial "ack I was 10 feet away". I call it human sacrifice to the Gods programming.

Nill the Mean
04-16-2002, 11:08 AM
As everyone here says, there are plenty of ways to avoid being slashed. The one time it did annoy me though, on a duel server. I had only just entered the arena. I walked up to my opponent, he bowed, I bowed. I looked at him again, activated my saber and got annihalated by the special move before I could even jump out of the way. He'd counted on me bowing after him to get the advantage. Tricky, tricky, tricky... I'll think twice about bowing to someone now.
I normally only bow to people after having fought them a few times. A few people have claimed that bowing is masturbatory nonsense... to me it is like showing your respect for the other person playing. Like saying good game or good fight, without the typing.
Bla, bla, bla, bla... stop telling these people this Nill, why should anyone give a hamsters behind... bibblebibble large soda monkey sausage roll.

D66
04-16-2002, 11:30 AM
Sounds like Lag-related hit detection problems to me. (the original poster at leats)

As to the 1 hit special attack..... Start a Bot match and see how hard it is to land that sucker. Whooowee....

PurplWulf
04-16-2002, 11:39 AM
I have the exact opposite problem with the SS move, someone has to hit me square on the head to kill me with it, I've never once been killed by that move in what appeared to be a hit detection error, on the other hand, I've hit people square in the head with it, watched my saber pass thru the length of their body from head to toe, and not gotten a "hit" on them.

the only thing I can think of is lag affecting what each person is seeing. my wife and I network our computers and play against eachother all the time, and even with both of us on my server with a "0" or "1" ping, we see things on our screen completely different sometimes. I'll see her as all the way across the arena, and on her screen, I'm right beside her.

dunno, it sucks, but there's not much that can be done about lag affecting what's being displayed on your screen.

<edit> I do agree that you shouldn't be able to turn once you've landed the SS, that makes it alot easier to get a kill with it, especially since you can keep turning to face an attacker during the "recovery" period, and then just back flip away quickly </edit>
the purple one

D66
04-16-2002, 11:41 AM
purple.... Check you NICs... You may have a low ping but be dropping a TON of packets

PurplWulf
04-16-2002, 11:44 AM
D66....? what should I be checking for? we both have the exact same NIC cards, and both of them are brand new and "appear" to be working perfectly......is there a setting I can change or some way I can check the packet loss between the network?

the purple one

UniKorn
04-16-2002, 12:46 PM
Just take your heavy repeater and smash em :)
End of Story :D

thrEEpaGe
04-16-2002, 12:49 PM
lol

im assuming that you (the thread starter) want this game to fit under the star wars parameters....i would probably be right...

since when do lightsabers NOT kill people instantly when they get sliced in half?

just a thought....

ArtifeX
04-16-2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by toolboi
3 problems I have with red stance:

1. it does 100% health dammage. I can see it doing 95 health damage, but 100 is too strong.


No, it's not too strong. Just go get a shield pack. Or use force protection. Even level 1 protection will keep you from dying on the first hit. Oh, and then there's that blocking thing.


2. It can hit farther than the blade. Too often have I been a good 10 (in game) feet from another player only to have his swing kill me.


That's the effects of lag. On their screen, you would have appeared right where they swung.


3. You can rotate durring the SS one hit kill move. I would have no problems with this normally, but if the blade is on the ground and it stubs you on the toe, or you step on it, then you die. All the strong stance player has to do is keep it pointed at you the whole time and you cant coutner with your saber.
Now you may sugest saber throw, yes this is how I kill these people, that and push, but what about no force servers? It makes leapNoobs virtual drednaughts (sp?).

Here I agree with you. I think the move needs to stay in, but getting killed by running over a blade that's buried in the floor far enough so that it's no longer visible is pretty dumb.

funkyeire
04-16-2002, 12:59 PM
:wstupid:

toolboi
04-16-2002, 02:24 PM
No, it's not too strong. Just go get a shield pack. Or use force protection. Even level 1 protection will keep you from dying on the first hit. Oh, and then there's that blocking thing.


First off, if your a dark jedi you dont have protection, and Im coming from duel games, which is what Im commenting on. In FFA the slowness of the red stance tends to balence out better due to things like guns :D
(Seriously, some one red stancing you just pull out the flechet or repeater and do primary fire).

Now let me explain the exact problem with doing 100% damage, the problem springs from heal...
If you have two people playing, and they both have heal, and one is using red stance, barring some fluke of fortune or massive combo (which RARELY happens) the red stance player will win. Why? As each player heals whenever they get hit it takes a one hit kill move to kill either of them. The yellow or blue stance player can slash as much as they want only to have all their dammage negated by heal, and then be killed by some lucky or lagged shot from the red stance player.
This also happens with drain, but not to the same extent as you can usually only fully heal once with drain before you have to recharge.
Now if you took out one hit kills it would make the grounds even, the yellow player could heal as well and thus would have a chance. Further the prementioned lag wouldnt be a problem because it just means that youd have to do heal.

The only problem I see from my idea is that people would start using a heavy+lightning combo which would be VERY irritating, but it would still give you a chance as they would not then be able to heal.

Jow
04-17-2002, 05:21 AM
A thought about blocking... I haven't yet figured out what heavy stance attacks are safe to block(I rarely see them successfully blocked) and which aren't, therefore I just try to avoid the swings entirely.

IBFunn
04-17-2002, 05:40 AM
If you see that sluggish SS swing dive move coming your way, which is unblockable, move well out of it's way and to the sides. Since this move can even hit you while it's in the ground I suggest being cautious while approaching someone when they are vulnerable after the attack. Hitting them with a swing from behind would probably safest. Like someone already said, push is a good counter, just don't get confused and use pull cause that can't end in any positive way. A good counter to the dive is to just back up out of there radius then plant a dive on them when they are vulnerable.

BunnyTea
04-17-2002, 09:25 AM
i think it's a combo of lag and hit box probs... oh well...

and what's all this about it being too powerful?! isnt it the point of SS to be mroe powerful than yellow/blue? and if u have shields it most likely wont be a 1-hit death...

BacMeth
04-17-2002, 09:42 AM
it all balances out.. i even think that RS is weak

Krazen
04-17-2002, 12:31 PM
Like i said in another thread, Red stance is fine as it is, its the move that has to get changed.

Most of reds move take more 'skill' to use then other stances, because the moves are so slow to come out, and recover from. You can flail about wildly with blue/yellow but you cant with red. The continous twirling attacks that are the staple of yellow/blue are absent from red, and you have to at least make each slash count.


BUT, the downward slash is too powerful. I dont mind the fact its unblockable, or kills in one hit, but the range is too wide and theres almost no recovery time(you step out of the way to make sure that the slash cant hit you, by the time you step back in the animations done and he can easily escape from your attacks). So a player can pretty much use this over and over again, and just hope for a lucky hit, with very little care. Which makes for a boring match.

Again, my problem with it is in no force saber servers. In ffa just pull out the repeater;). However, it no excuse...the saber stances should be balanced all around;)

don01
04-17-2002, 08:53 PM
I Love it when the strong stance guys use that move... Yeah I got killed every time they did it at first, but once I got the timing down they don't have a chance.

1. Conserve force.
2. Watch them set up for the "Kill"
3. Roll forward under their strike.
4. Turn and saber throw into their backside.
5. Gloat on YOUR kill!!!

Muhahaha

Gavin

FWH Lasker
04-18-2002, 01:44 AM
Doesn't work that way Don. It takes many saber throw hits to kill a guy and only 1 hit in heavy stance. Plus, if the heavy stance user has healing, then you'll never ever kill him that way (from a duel point of view).

The author of this thread is correct. A heavy stance hit should not take 100% of your health. More and more all I'm seeing on the servers now are the demented bunny hoppers doing their leaping routine. What used to be an enjoyable battle where I walked away respecting my opponent now makes me walk away in disgust.

It's not the people who use the demented bunny hop of death I blame - it's poor game mechanics. Raven Software has to make some changes, or disgust will quickly drive many others away as well.

BS - soundwave
04-18-2002, 10:22 AM
Now let me explain the exact problem with doing 100% damage, the problem springs from heal...
If you have two people playing, and they both have heal, and one is using red stance, barring some fluke of fortune or massive combo (which RARELY happens) the red stance player will win. Why? As each player heals whenever they get hit it takes a one hit kill move to kill either of them. The yellow or blue stance player can slash as much as they want only to have all their dammage negated by heal, and then be killed by some lucky or lagged shot from the red stance player.
This also happens with drain, but not to the same extent as you can usually only fully heal once with drain before you have to recharge.
Now if you took out one hit kills it would make the grounds even, the yellow player could heal as well and thus would have a chance. Further the prementioned lag wouldnt be a problem because it just means that youd have to do heal.

The only problem I see from my idea is that people would start using a heavy+lightning combo which would be VERY irritating, but it would still give you a chance as they would not then be able to heal. [/B]


Bingo, I dueled a guy who used hvy stance + heal and the only move he did was that strong attack. I could dodge it easily and must of hit him like 50 times every duel but he just healed and all he needed to do was tap my foot with his saber to win, grrrrr.

Sword Breaker
04-19-2002, 12:29 AM
If you're playing on a full force server, it's extremely easy to counter those 1-hit-kill abusers.

If they use dark side, you should be able to just saber throw them to death... that or rush them with yellow saber.

If they use light side, it's a tad bit trickier... but it's still easy. The only catch is that you have to use light side. When the battle starts (after whatever formalities you might use), the first step is to just land one saber throw on them (easy to do). This should set their health to no shields so you can kill them with one heavy hit. Now just stand still and let them line up their heavy 1-hit-kill. As soon as you see them fly toward you, activate level 3 force protection and chop them with a heavy hit! Then laugh at their stupidity! I can't believe how many people use force protection like an idiot. The best way to use it is in a short burst to protect a single hit so you can do a trade-off for hits, except yours will actually hurt them.

The only drawback is that you need enough force to invest in this... so you might have to cut back on those other force powers you like on low force servers.

-Sword Breaker

Flash25
04-19-2002, 01:09 AM
Originally posted by Krazen
Most of reds move take more 'skill' to use then other stances, because the moves are so slow to come out, and recover from.

You're correct, but only to an extent. The red stance requires a fair amount of skill to use successfully. Unfortunatly, the amount of skill required isn't great. Once you become competant in the red stance you are more powerful than an eqaully skilled player with the other two stances.

It takes a really good blue/yellow player to beat a good red stance player. It takes an expert blue/yellow to beat a really good red player. The power to skill ratio is grossly in favor of the red stance. Much of the disparity seems to be in the inherent power of the lightsaber. It appears that the lightsaber just hurts more because you hold it higher. If you use postion and good tactics, you can project power much greater than your skill.

Shadow_Drone
04-19-2002, 05:19 AM
All these counters are all well and good, but what about on a nf duel server? I must have dodged that move for five minutes at a time against a lamer who kept using it repeatadly on a nf duel server. My luck would always run out and he would always land a hit. I could not attack because of the bugged hit detection. All other counters were null of course it being a no force server. THAT is why this needs to be addressed.

Krazen
04-20-2002, 05:13 AM
Originally posted by Flash25


You're correct, but only to an extent. The red stance requires a fair amount of skill to use successfully. Unfortunatly, the amount of skill required isn't great. Once you become competant in the red stance you are more powerful than an eqaully skilled player with the other two stances.

It takes a really good blue/yellow player to beat a good red stance player. It takes an expert blue/yellow to beat a really good red player. The power to skill ratio is grossly in favor of the red stance. Much of the disparity seems to be in the inherent power of the lightsaber. It appears that the lightsaber just hurts more because you hold it higher. If you use postion and good tactics, you can project power much greater than your skill.

I try to play heavy red, but im forced to be good with yellow, and at least proficient with blue. Why? A heavy offensive yellow player vs a red player will (sans el cheapo move) win, as long as he presses them. The red's move doesnt come out fast enough to keep the barrage up, and the recover time leaves him open. There's only one move that doesnt obey that behavior is the insta-kill downward slice, and i think its already been established its broken as hell. The rest of red stance, however, is perfectly balanced(and to be honest, any player that relies on one stance strictly wont go far)

Flash25
04-20-2002, 06:12 PM
Originally posted by Krazen


A heavy offensive yellow player vs a red player will (sans el cheapo move) win, as long as he presses them. The red's move doesnt come out fast enough to keep the barrage up, and the recover time leaves him open.

Not against a good red player. People who use the red stance well are able to not only use the initial swing, but the saber return as well. If you aim with the mouse as the saber returns to the ready position, you can still hit your opponent. This effectively threatens an area of at least 180 degrees. Couple that with the fact that you can back up almost as fast as you can run forward and you have the conditions that allow a player to consistently defeat opponents who are of a higher skill level than he has.

It isn't the stances in and of themselves that is unbalanced. It is the ancillary aspects of the game, like running, that combine with the stances that make them unbalanced. A good red player knows the point in his swing that he is threatened. With proper timing, he can swing, maneuver, and swing again before the opponent can rush in. Unless he uses the DFA, he is just as maneuverable as anybody else.

OOO
04-21-2002, 03:02 AM
Well I've spent some quality time on the saber only FFA servers and have much the same gripe as many people on this board. I can use skill and get in five or six swings with my medium stance and get hit and killed in one shot by a guy in the heavy stance. A light side heavy stance user who knows how to make himself a hard target is an exceptionally tough opponent.

I've worked out several different tactics for dealing with heavy stance users that consist of pulls, kicks, flips, rolls, saber throws, wall runs, ect ect ect. The problem is that the heavy stance user doesn't need to use tactics, just get that one hit in while you are desperatly trying to chip him down and hoping not to get hit with some lag.

Why they made the game so that one stance does more damage then any other is beyond me. The different stances should only have changed your attack arcs, speed of attacks, defense ability, recovery time ect ect ect.

Having a stance that performs one hit kills will undoubtably make it the most popular. By then allowing this stance to have the longest reach you make it the most effective stance. Now give this stance an easy to perform finishing move that is unblockable and extremly effective in crowded team ffa matches and you've made the other two stances nearly obsolete.

I watched a guy earlier perform the DFA 4 times in a row in a saber only team FFA. It was so crowded and so chaotic that he scored himself four kills in a row...

Saber fights can be allot of fun...and stupid beyond belief all in the same match. It makes you think WTF!?


OOO

SpaceRain
04-21-2002, 07:27 AM
Originally posted by Shadow_Drone
All these counters are all well and good, but what about on a nf duel server? I must have dodged that move for five minutes at a time against a lamer who kept using it repeatadly on a nf duel server. My luck would always run out and he would always land a hit. I could not attack because of the bugged hit detection. All other counters were null of course it being a no force server. THAT is why this needs to be addressed. What's to comment? You got it all right. So many people just go: "Ah, just grip/push/kick/whatever the mother****er." without understanding that forces aren't necessarily turned on. (I personally don't like forces, because of the drain/grip combo, which we won't discuss here as there are 268 threads on this forum about drain/grip/heal.)

Originally posted by Krazen
Again, my problem with it is in no force saber servers. In ffa just pull out the repeater. However, it no excuse...the saber stances should be balanced all aroundExactly. Otherwise it'll be: "You wanna duel? Fine, just join my server. Oh, you're using strong stance? I'll have to turn on forces to counter, then.", which is, obviously, ridiculous.

I think most of us agrees that DFA needs two fixes:

1. The hit detection.
2. Longer recovery time where the player can't move so he actually gets to pay for his mistake if he misses instead of just backing away and trying again with minimal risk.

Luckily, I know for a fact that both issues will be addressed in the upcoming patch Raven Software is developing in cooperation with GetReal Studios.

No, I don't see a patch happening either, but Raven Software were rather good with patches for Soldier of Fortune, so let's give them the benefit of the doubt until we see Jedi Knight III, at which point we'll know for a fact we can stop dreaming, ok? :)

Sartis
04-21-2002, 01:32 PM
There will be a patch, but will red stance be effected any by it who knows, Take a look at Heretic 2 they did alot to make that one hell of a game, I expect they will do the same for this since this has alot bigger audience.

Teir
04-22-2002, 12:50 AM
I had 94-97 health left when i took a strong hit in my footh and i went facedown:D
I imagen the footh were cut off otherwise i laughed my ass off , hehe.