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View Full Version : Replacements for drain?


Angelous
04-16-2002, 10:30 PM
Many people believe drain is cheap, i am one of them. Some have proposed that lucas kick drain in the next patch and introduce a less cheap force. This will not happen, but for those of us who like to dream and take several types of "medicinal" drugs it is a possibility. If Lucas decides to kick drain than i prupose some new forces for the dark side....
1) Intimidation - When the player activates this they become very intimidating and very evil like. A sinister laugh may be added but only at level 3 (this power does actually nothing)
2)Limb bash - for some reason the dark jedi has the ability to romve libs from the dead and bludgen his opponent with it. At level 3 they can use whole bodys.
3)Fly- the player is given the impression he is flying while in truth they are standing completely still and are left defenseless, other players now have the ability to hack away at this foolsih bastard...

These are some suggestions, but hey if you dont like em' remember i still love you...

[del] Twitch
04-16-2002, 10:47 PM
I just think Drain needs to be lessened quite a bit...mostly the time that it takes to drain.

Fly? Like a different Mind Trick.
Limb Bash? Player bodies disappear, but it could be implemented. I don't like the idea, however, because why couldn't the Light side do the same?

I love ideas, tho. Especially those that replace Drain.

- Twitch

Jman3ooo
04-16-2002, 10:57 PM
Here is an idea...

Rather then weaken drain how about increase absorb...

When some one uses a force it also heals them... and the attack has no affact...

don01
04-16-2002, 11:40 PM
Drain isn't really cheap... the tatics employed by the player are cheap. Drain is supposed to be the Dark Jedi's heal... instead, some people are using it offensively, Drain / Grip / Lightning, repeat.

Here's an idea: Instead of nerfing any power, just set the force regen time a lot lower when setting up the server. Both sides can heal at will, but neither side is left defenseless to cheap tricks. If the force regenerates fast enough, a Jedi can pop on absorb before being extensively damaged by a grip or ranged lightning attack.

Dago
04-17-2002, 04:26 AM
How about... You can only use drain when hurt...??

Jim-Dan Xsee
04-17-2002, 06:14 AM
IMHO, I think that Mind Trick is a lot more unfair than drain. At least with drain you can see your opponent!

I play as the light side, and I think drain isn't much of a problem. I do think that Mind Trick should be replaced by "Meditation" that could regain mana. A la Qui Gon in the Darth Maul fight of episode 1.

To be fair, the light side practitioner should, at level 1, stand still and crouch to Meditate. At level 2, stand still and standing to meditate, and at level 3, the jedi can meditate whilst moving.

I think that's a lot fairer. I got whupped 15-3 by a light jedi with Mind trick on a sabers only server, but I won 20-7 against two dark Jedi who were using drain.

Meditation was mentioned in a previous thread, I am not claiming credit for it.

Jim-Dan Xsee

BunnyTea
04-17-2002, 09:19 AM
like somebody mentioned earlier i think drain doesnt need to be aken out, just toned down a bit... especially the rate at which it drains... it seems like it only takes a second and a half to deplete all of my force pool...

and mind trick isnt that powerful... maybe if everyone else was invisible but that rarely happens...

BacMeth
04-17-2002, 09:26 AM
every force has a counter force...
mind trick -> sight
lightning -> heal
drain -> absorb

now drain is the most often used and wh*red force

it should be tweaked a bit

i like the idea of only allowing drain at health < 100

another idea would be... adding an animation that prepares drain..
it takes a second to activate it.. enough time to allow activating absorb...

ArtifeX
04-17-2002, 09:32 AM
Originally posted by Angelous
Many people believe drain is cheap, i am one of them. Some have proposed that lucas kick drain in the next patch and introduce a less cheap force. This will not happen, but for those of us who like to dream and take several types of "medicinal" drugs it is a possibility. If Lucas decides to kick drain than i prupose some new forces for the dark side....
1) Intimidation - When the player activates this they become very intimidating and very evil like. A sinister laugh may be added but only at level 3 (this power does actually nothing)
2)Limb bash - for some reason the dark jedi has the ability to romve libs from the dead and bludgen his opponent with it. At level 3 they can use whole bodys.
3)Fly- the player is given the impression he is flying while in truth they are standing completely still and are left defenseless, other players now have the ability to hack away at this foolsih bastard...

These are some suggestions, but hey if you dont like em' remember i still love you...

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Where's the smite option when you need it?

Dark_One
04-17-2002, 07:52 PM
Mindtrick realy sucks in team modes. they should make it an camouflage force. If you activate it you'll have the colors of the opposite team for a short time.

Sartis
04-18-2002, 12:15 PM
heh, you guys realize Drain isn't just a heal for Dark Jedi, its ALSO the only counter we have for any force powers? There is a reason it does two things, same with how absorb does two things.

Sure it can be abused, but so can push/pull and absorb. I admit I have abused it to throw somebody who calls me a n00b or anything else after I kill him for hte 20th time and tells me I have no skill =p

And really, meditation while moving? Mind Trick has got to be the most overestimated forces, I can still grip Invisible people, I can still drain Invisible people, I can also put on Force seeing. Anyways, you will never get a lightside only ability to increase your force regeneration, expecially while moving. Remember we want a type of balance, not I want to be a Dark Jedi but I get my ass kicked cause Light never runs out of force.

I'll say it again,
Absorb = Lightside Counter and Force"heal"
Drain = Darkside Counter and Heal

They are not just one thing, they are two things. Stop labeling Drain as just a Darksides heal

gaeb
04-19-2002, 04:51 PM
Many people believe drain is cheap, i am one of them.

Many people believe Drain works well as-is, and I am one of them.

I got whupped 15-3 by a light jedi with Mind trick on a sabers only server, but I won 20-7 against two dark Jedi who were using drain.

I am a Dark Jedi. I don't fear other Dark Jedi. I fear Light Jedi.

Generally speaking, if you're complaining then you haven't put in the hard work to find decisive counters. If you're tired of being DFA spammed by that n00b, but you aren't patient enough to wait for them to make a mistake and keep giving them kills, then all you're really here for is to ask that the game be made easier for you.

Drain could, in my opinion, have it's range lowered. SLIGHTLY. And the drain rate lowered. SLIGHTLY. But for that matter, Heal's cost could be increased, Sight's cost could be SLIGHTLY reduced, and Absorb's activation and upkeep cost could be increased. For that matter, Grip's cost could be decreased.

Fortunately, it isn't my job to tune this game. And the more I play, the more I realize HOW WELL BALANCED the force powers and combat system are, in the context they were designed for. That means guns+force.

I'd advise people complaining to play more and get frustrated less. Kurgan put it best - there are a lot of sore losers.

- Gaeb

gaeb
04-19-2002, 05:02 PM
i like the idea of only allowing drain at health < 100

Are you familiar with the term "Paladin" ? AKA Light Force users who use only heavy stance and heal?

Think. Carefully. About what this modification would do to that balance.

Ok, I'll spell it out.

Paladin rushes in with heavy stance. I grip. He chokes for a while, turns on absorb, backs off, and heals. He rushes in. I lightning. He staggers for a while, backs off, and heals. He gets in a HIT, which in HEAVY stance does a minimum of 100 damage. IF I had no shields, I'm dead, and I could NEVER have used drain.

If I had shields, assuming I can get far enough away to use drain (remember, Drain has a delay time after using it where you are vulnerable) then if he is good he will be patient. 30 seconds later we will be back to square one - he has force, so do I, but I can't steal his force, and he can absorb or heal anything I do. We BOTH have access to push/pull, so I ignore those. If I hit him and don't kill him in my first hit (guess I'd HAVE to use heavy stance...), he heals. It's back to the basic scenario: he hits me once, I die, and Drain is utterly nullified in this scenario.

The end result of your suggestion is obvious. Skill and lag throw all things in the air... but come on. Think a little.

- Gaeb :vadar:

Monnnster
04-19-2002, 05:07 PM
I say drain should be made MORE powerful! It should refill the user's force meter too!

gaeb
04-19-2002, 05:29 PM
I play as the light side, and I think drain isn't much of a problem. I do think that Mind Trick should be replaced by "Meditation" that could regain mana. A la Qui Gon in the Darth Maul fight of episode 1.

Qui Gon lost that fight. :vadar:

Mind Trick is incredibly useful. I've played light side ONCE (forced by server rules) and I had a blast with it. I got more use out of it than I did absorb or heal. By the end of the match, opponents would be VERY cautious about following me around any corner, which gave me more time to get away and get a gun.

Think about what meditation would do to the current complaint about heal being too cheap. It would, in fact, FORCE Dark Jedi to rely on Heavy Stance. Because Light Jedi Meditation+Heal means that any canny Light Jedi will always be at 100 health... just step back, meditate, and heal.

It's so amusing how these suggestions promote the NEED to use Heavy Stance to counter them. After all, aren't people complaining about "No Skill" Heavy Saber fights?

- Gaeb

Mortician
04-19-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by gaeb


If I had shields, assuming I can get far enough away to use drain (remember, Drain has a delay time after using it where you are vulnerable) then if he is good he will be patient. 30 seconds later we will be back to square one - he has force, so do I, but I can't steal his force, and he can absorb or heal anything I do. We BOTH have access to push/pull, so I ignore those. If I hit him and don't kill him in my first hit (guess I'd HAVE to use heavy stance...), he heals. It's back to the basic scenario: he hits me once, I die, and Drain is utterly nullified in this scenario.

- Gaeb :vadar:

I actually play as a Paladin (although, using Medium Stance) and I am always pissed if some1 drains me. You guys simply drain and I won't ever have enough Force Power to heal myself. Being Paladin, YOU are my worst enemy, *lol*.

SirDogmeat
04-19-2002, 06:09 PM
lmao, if i had a nickel for everytime ive seen someone complain about the ole drain, I'd be rich by now. But for what its worth, do you honestly think that raven did no playtesting when it came to the force powers? I'm thinking they probably did, and from my view of this game, they playtested a whole bunch. There's endless possibilities for counters... How bout force speed? Drain has a limited range, so u can easily activate it from outside of a darkjedi's reach, (If u have it at level 3, it will last merely on the force u r regenerating, of course u won't regenerate force at the same time, but thats just less force for them to take).

There's endless ways to beat it, but if you don't like drain, then don't play with force. It's as simple as that.

FYI: The best way to figure out how to beat something, is to learn to play it yourself, and take note of it's weaknesses. The dark side is quick and easy to learn, while the light side takes more discipline, and patience.

ACGe0rge
04-20-2002, 06:29 AM
I for one dont have any problem with drain. I dont use it very often but it is no more "cheap" than any other move. I get the feeling that most of the people who dont like it have primarily played light jedi. The thing is, I get my butt kicked more by light jedi than dark by a long shot. You cant figure out how to counter drain? Then tell me what am I suppose to do about people who use protect and heal? They can take less damage in a fight and quickly heal themselves to counter the damge that does get through. Mind trick is even worse. Granted, you can counter it with seeing, but since you cant leave seeing on all the time, people can sneak up behind you and kill you with the strong stance finishing move.

IMHO, the game is plenty balance with everything having a counter. those counters may not work all the time but they DO work. Even as a dark jedi (hence no absorb) I have been able to counter other dark jedi who try to drain me to death. So dont get frustrated with the drain power. Just look for ways to counter it and you will eventually find them. HAve fun everyone.

HertogJan
04-20-2002, 06:51 AM
Dude, AM I THE ONLY PERSON, who believes that ANY forcepower should be able to get blocked by both the dark and the light side?

Yeah, use absorb against drain, BUT WHAT IF I WANT TO BE ON THE DARKSIDE??

Well maybe you shouldn't be able to BLOCK it, but damn, you also shouldn't be left helpless when somebody is spamming a forcepower...

My solution: make drain use a LOT more mana. I think that it would require your entire force pool, to drain from your enemies. I think the primary function of drain, should be to HEAL yourself; not to render your enemy defenseless...

HBK
04-20-2002, 07:19 AM
Keep drain the way it is. That way the drainers will stay overconfident. I can hit absorb very quickly. I might get a full drain on me 1 out of 10 times. I usually lose 25-50%. But, it gives me plenty of time to attack before my absorb runs out. Or they realize the can't force me and we duke it out sabre style. Then I shut off absorb and regen waiting to either absorb again or heal.

Drainers, it seems, are programmed to switch to lightning grip for the kill after they drain. They regen my mana before realizing I have absorb on. They even turn away to run me over a ledge without even realizing they don't have me gripped. It's hilarious, free shots 4 me or a nice force push and c u l8r. Force powers being used against me = attacks for me w/ no fear of reprisal. I said attacks, not kills. Wish I could close the deal.

I need to work on my sabre. When they figure out I am not going out via the force, they switch to sabre(or gun) and then it gets more interesting.

Not taking player skill into consideration, the only thing that concerns me is heavy stance. I am such an idiot. I just cannot time the swings(to get them when vulnerable). I am always a bit anxious and get wacked by the end of swings or to slow and can't get to them while they back peddal and start their next swing.

Absorb/Heal best combo in the game. I will never use the darkside because I know it is powerless vs the lightside. You know, dare I say, the darkside is underpowered?

HBK

HertogJan
04-20-2002, 03:15 PM
It's not the light side I'm worried about, it's drain against other dark siders...

Sartis
04-20-2002, 06:17 PM
I'll say it again DRAIN is also a COUNTER force, its not just a heal force, making it use your entire mana pool would be stupid, that would be like darksiders saying let absorb take the whole mana pool.

ACGe0rge
04-20-2002, 10:57 PM
Drain is can be countered by light and darkside jedi. The simplest way is absorb for light and to drain right back for dark. Driners also leave them self open for attack as long as they are draining.

As I said before, I rerely use drain but when i do, it's more defensive than offensive. When a light jedi uses protect, I train their force power to turn it off. When a dark jedi keeps using grip or lightening, I drain them so they cant use those powers fo a few seconds. I also use it against those who try to push/pull me for a quick kill. I dont use drain in all these situations since I can usually counter with other moves.

I've played on servers where there were some drain spammers. IMO they were the easiest guys to kill. If nothing else, charging right at them either causes them to stop draining, or makes it really easy to get in some deadly saber swings.

I know that being drained can be a pain in the rear but trust me, it CAN be countered regularly if oyu know what to do. This is true for both light and dark jedi.

R3mmus
04-21-2002, 10:18 AM
Somehwere above someone mentioned this, drain is a Dark Jedi's only counter against lightside force powers. Replacing drain would mean the lightside can use whatever force powers they want freely, knowing that Dark Side can't do anything about it and then slap on absorb whenever the Dark Jedi tries to use any of his force powers.

The force powers as they stand are perfectly balanced.