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Rajess MoDuron
04-17-2002, 01:41 PM
Allright folks, I promised it yesterday, but here it is, a quick synopsis of what you can expect in this mod. No justification for the changes, that'll be supplied later. Basically, know this: it is an attempt to make the duels more like the duels in the movies.

Some questions I asked myself in watching the duels in the movies were:

Why don't they use the force ALL THE TIME?

Answer: The effort taken to use the force against another force user isn't worth it if both combatants are of comperable abilities, in fact, when you have no massive advantage in ability, it costs you more than it earns. Use of the force is simply a way to express the power you COULD hold over the other person if you so chose. Examples of force use like this are Vader throwing the ROOM at Luke in ESB, Maul throwing the battledroid carcass to open the door in TPM, Dooku shocking Anakin in AotC, and Sidious shocking Luke in RotJ. Then there is the actual useful application of the force. Obi-Wan leaping several stories to catch up in the Duel of the Fates, Luke backflipping to avoid Vader every time he did it, Maul throwing Obi-Wan into the melting pit, etc...

This mod will do it's best to simulate this.

Why don't we see little nicks and cuts and stuff?

Okay, so this isn't going to apply as much when the next movie comes out, but the lightsaber is a weapon, a very powerful weapon, and unless you can gain something from the person surviving, be it pleasure or something to a higher purpose, every hit will be an attempt to kill or maim.

Therefore, every hit is a one hit kill.

"But wait man, the fights are gonna be soooo short!"

I said every HIT is a one hit kill.

The definition of Mana will be changed. It is now "Force Stamina". Imagine if you will, that the hits up to the final blow are not actually hits, but just strikes that the defender had to go extra far out of his/her way to block. What was a 'hit' before will not deduct life until there is NO force left to absorb the blow.

This does 2 things:

1. Better simulates the amount of force effort required to fight another force user with a lightsaber.

2. Makes people be more economical about their force use. If everytime you use the force it makes it more likely the next hit could kill you, are you going to use it as often? Especially since none of the powers will be very effective outright offensively? No. Force will be used as a tactical assistant, nothing more. Not as a way to kill your opponent. Except in certain cases, which I will get to later.

There WILL be 7 forms of lightsaber combat. Each with it's own strengths, weaknesses, and animations. Some forms will even have their own unique weapons (a doublebladed saber form for instance, a twin saber form, etc.)

The ones described and shown in the movies will be as they are in the movies. Those not shown will be decided through group meetings and/or community votes.

"But dude, what will the forms be differentiated by?"

Well, other than the animations, which would be enough for some people, they will be catagorized and ranked in 4 categories. The categories are:

Sweep: The distance the lightsaber covers in it's attacks. Anakin's form covers a lot of ground, Obi-Wan's is more close in. That sort of thing.

Speed: Not speed as we know it now, where the red form is slow, the medium form normal, and fast form...fast. It is instead more correctly the delay between attack mode and a defensive posture.

Strength: The amount of strength and power behind an attack. Since all hits will be you're hit you're dead, this instead will most effective in combos, as the more you beat someone down with a combo that has brute force, the more likely you are to get a good amount of stamina depleted by your attacks.

Concentration: Hey, for those of us who have actually participated in fencing in one form or another, you know that depending on what you are doing, you cannot concentrate as much on other things. With Jedi, this would make your outward use of the force not as effective. Some forms, therefore, which would be more concentration intensive, will have a penalty incurred before the force power is used, be it a higher cost or lower effectiveness.


"But wait dude, how do we get the forms?"

Okay, this is where you, the community come in. Right now my dream is to have it so that the statistics of the players is kept on a server. Points will be alloted in a few different categories, and may be GIVEN in two ways:

1: If the server has an admin with no life, the points may be given by the admin. So if someone lost a duel, but REALLY put up a good fight, they could get a point, especially if fighting someone of a higher level (this will be gotten to later)

2: Points will be given for kills, straight up.

Oh yeah, I hope to have this mod be run in a ladder type server system, with multiple duels going on at one time, or have it so that light siders cannot hurt lightsiders, but darksiders can hurt everyone. Just REALISTIC is the point of the mod.

The other point is to keep those annoying people away, the ones who kill people wanton and rampantly, the gunners who kill people trying to duel, etc.

I know, I know. "Go to a DUEL SERVER"

Well, the duel servers have a tendency to be laggy, and the wait is annoying, as well as the timeout bugs and stuff.

There will be NO guns in this mod...to begin with. They may be added later, but initally we want to establish a saber heavy community. I mean all of this is subject to change regarding what the community says, but hey, the point of the mod is JEDI and SITH, not bounty hunters or other scum.

So anyway, points can be redeemed for Force powers and saved up for new dueling styles. Points might be given into two separate tallies at the same time, one that is used for force powers, one that is used for styles. Whatever, but once you reach master level in one style, you cannot allocate points to any others. Something like that.

I'd also like to incorporate Dark Side points, so that you cannot really decide to be a light jedi and not behave like one. Anyway, this is all stuff to be hashed out later.

Anyway, that is all I want to reveal right now. Here is a basic rundown of what you may be able to expect:

Skin pack of Jedi and Sith from the movies, EU, and authors' imaginations.

Map pack of famous duel sites from the movies, EU, and authors' imaginations. Gameplay and authenticity will be on equal levels, therefore framerate could be more important that resolution of textures.

Saber styles with new animations. Saber styles will be chosen not IN GAME, but during setup or through a GUI like CounterStrike or Day of Defeat.

Other miscellanea.

Okay folks. Whaddya think?

Elijah
04-17-2002, 01:54 PM
Exactly what NRG is Based on :D New Revoltions.

nukage
04-17-2002, 02:08 PM
yeah that sounds a lot like what the movies were like i guess. The problem with having set force powers is the way you can anticipate what your enemy can do since there are only 15 or so force powers. but in the movies, the characters use the force to do whatever they can, and usually it is unexpected, like when luke does the mind trick noone is like "oh watch out he might do the mind trick." bad example but i cant think of any better other than the ones you already said. So maybe some force powers could activate only at certain times, much like the saber moves. Like a light or something could flash on the hud at a certain time and if you pressed a certain key like Use Force, you would execute that force move. It could be like using the force to throw debris at the enemy, throwing them off a ledge, etc. or maybe my idea sucks, i dont know.

TheAlbaniac
04-17-2002, 02:09 PM
Overall a great idea... but:

I think seven saber stances is too much. Maybe you shouldn't call it seven stances.
Maybe double bladed and twin sabers should be something you choose with your character. Then you have five stances left, which IMO is still a lot. Unless you make them really different, some of them won't be used anyways.
Also, think of the amount of animations you have to create!

but as i said, It's a great idea. I think it's always good to make saber fights more realistic and more tactical!

Rajess MoDuron
04-17-2002, 02:13 PM
Voting is SOOO encouraged, btw.


Thanks for the input, keep the junks comin!

Rajess MoDuron
04-17-2002, 02:35 PM
Moderators leave the ban at home,
The post is full of ballers and their thoughts are full grown,
Forum heads leave your mouse in it's treads,
Cause it is 12:37 (EST) and the post is bumpin bumpin.

Oh yeah, they ain't got NOTHIN on me!

The Truthful Liar
04-17-2002, 02:49 PM
Also there could also be the possibility of having a couple game settings/modes for the mod.

Such as:

1. Choose a character. Every character has different Pro's and Con's. You cannot modify or adjust them. Some are better with defending/blocking others are more aggressive, etc...
So instead of using stances, every character has a different style of fighting. Maybe one character is especial with kicking and more close combat, another could handle better with fancy saber moves and snazzy techniques, while another (please excuse the over-usage of 'another') character could be more specialized in strong attacks and be more of a bold character so to speak, and of course you can have a middle-end kind of guy who doesn't really have a 'special' aspect to that character making him a more nondescript type of player.

2. The second kind of 'mode' could involve as you say, you want to make it more 'movie like' - you could RE-INACT the very precise movie scenes. Without any changes. If you re-inacted.. lets say.. the Obiwan VS Darth battle. Same Location, Same sabers, same position, basically Precise to every detail. And it could actually feel as if you are playing Darth or Obi. Keeping in mind so as to make it PERFECTLY realistic, Darth would have the same kind of strengh and power he had then/used. Meaning a player would go all "Drain wh0ring" like a beserk nor would Obi (player) become a "heal $lut". And you couldn't break any barriers, like run into solo's ship and say "SO LONG SUCKERS, BWAAHAHAHAHA" and go off leaving Luke, Han, Leia and the rest behind.

NO!
NO!
NO!

The very details would have to be considered very carefully as well as characters in the movie and their positions. We could say that Darth had a more strong position at that time since he was in his own area where Obi was new to the surroundings of outerspace and he took on a more defensive role.

You could argue that since Obi died, would that ending HAVE to occur... Well I say that anything can happen so not making the poor person who plays as Obi thinking "awww... man SCREWED AGAIN I'm playing as Obi for the third time in a row" =)

Now this brings up another interesting point...

As a whole addition for a singleplayer manifesto, maybe re-create (at least) the first movie, A New Hope. Where you can choose too take a role and pending wether you die or live the outcome changes. For instance if you played as Obi Wan and (no you cannot kill Darth, too stupid at this point) you defeated him, Obi lives and the future of "A New Hope" changes (but... I think he should die at some stage)

Maybe making a new SP scenario playing in Lukes time. *gleeful smile* and really 'choosing your destiny'...

kthxbye ;)

(P.S. if anything else comes to mind or if I perhaps want to change anything I will come back and post again :))

shred_lord
04-17-2002, 04:15 PM
7 stances are not to many!

Just think how many styles of sword use there are in the real world. More than there are different types of sword, and there are a lot of different types of sword. They all have different pro's and con's.

As to the animations:- one developers = one style

The styles can be balanced out afterwards.

Also, I love to see some styles with some authenticity! The 'classic' style (used by old Obi Wan) is pretty much Kendo with a few alterations. So if you're a developer who does Kendo(or knows someone who does), maybe you're the guy to animate this style.

Similarly, are you or someone you know a fencer? Then give it a go.

The only style that need a lot of inventiveness would be double bladed as it is the furthest from any real world style. (though maby close to the use of a 'black ronin' /shrug)


Anyway great idea.:D

Rajess MoDuron
04-17-2002, 08:41 PM
Thanks to all of you, keep the input coming!

This mod cannot survive without your input, as I don't wanna put what will more than likely be over a year of work into a mod that nobody is going to play because it isn't userfriendly or playable. Tell me what YOU, the players, want. I know what I as a player want, but I am a Star Wars nut first, player last.

Thanks again, from the cockles of my heart...or maybe the subcockle area, but whatever!

Seth

Exar
04-17-2002, 09:27 PM
from what i understand of force implemantation in saber combat in the movies and other star wars fiction, it works much like the force speed power in SP. for example in the movies ( mostly the new ones) it would be impossible for a regular person to keep that kind of pace and accuracy in a sword fight. its is so fast and intence that unless you altered your perception of time it would be impossible to keep up. this is described in Tales of the Jedi and Dark Empire as "battle meditation" in which the jedi basicly hightens their perception and percieves reality as "slowed down" while their own reactions increase. in other books like I jedi, it is described in much the same way, where corran can see in slow motion the possible outcomes of his enemies next move, allowing him to react with jedi speed. It could be arued though that the force is just used to guide the jedi's movments like autonomic response. the latter is more suitable for this type of mod idea because not many people would want to play in a slo mo style for combat. i like the idea of using up force power for the sake of the actual combat itself, and while you have force power you could basically block all incoming blows and react like a jedi should. this would cause the players to pace themselves a little more and be a little more cautious with the other force abilities. I dont really care how its done but any kind of mod that would make the saber combat more like the movies would be very welcome by me!
for that matter the only compaint i have is in SP it should not take more than 2 shots to kill a stormtrooper with a blaster rifle. its rediculous that even the disruptor can take multiple shots to kill a stormtrooper. It should be more like the movies!!! 1 shot to the torso should take em out! about styles, dont forget the backhanded style used by the evil jedi women in the that jedi academy novel (cant remember which one exactly) where they have the blade comming from the bottom of the hand.

Brodieman
04-18-2002, 07:38 AM
Love the idea, my input would be to allow more defensive moves as if you look in the movies it isn't all attack moves, the defence is purely spectacular at times - Obi-Wan defending Darth Maul's attacks in the Phantom Menace being the premier example. I guess i';m saying more attack modes are cool but chuck some devensive postures/stances/moves in as well, don't make them impregnable fortresses obviously but do use them as an option it would greatly increase gameplay longevity. What would look better then a stunning attack, a stunning defence that puts you in position to attack.

Rajess MoDuron
04-18-2002, 10:23 AM
Like the input guys! Good morning everyone (at least here is is morning).

Okay Brodieman, love the name AND the idea. Maybe replacing the present saber style system with the defensive, agressive, and neutral postures would be a good and easy way to deal with that.

The one problem that I can think of is that I'm not quite sure how the MP saber code works yet, but I think they made it so that the percentage of blocks done by both people swinging is greatly reduced. Either that or LAG (eeeeww...) contributes to the both people swinging both or neither hitting at all syndrome.

Whatever, it's an awesome idea, and we will try to incorporate it somehow.

Seth

Brodieman
04-18-2002, 12:09 PM
Originally posted by Rajess MoDuron
Like the input guys! Good morning everyone (at least here is is morning).

Okay Brodieman, love the name AND the idea. Maybe replacing the present saber style system with the defensive, agressive, and neutral postures would be a good and easy way to deal with that.

The one problem that I can think of is that I'm not quite sure how the MP saber code works yet, but I think they made it so that the percentage of blocks done by both people swinging is greatly reduced. Either that or LAG (eeeeww...) contributes to the both people swinging both or neither hitting at all syndrome.

Whatever, it's an awesome idea, and we will try to incorporate it somehow.

Seth

Thanks mate, anyway i love the idea of Defensive, Aggressive and Neutral stances but as you say it all depends on current coding. If it couldn't be done i guess it wouldn't be a great loss as your idea is sensational, ever think of trying the same for SP?

Rajess MoDuron
04-18-2002, 12:29 PM
There is a naughty naughty rumor that no SP SDK will be released. Naughty naughty naughty.

If it does come out, we might try SP first, and see if people like it. Whatevs, it's all good.

Seth

Rajess MoDuron
04-18-2002, 04:36 PM
Bringing
Usurpance,
Meagerly
Presented.

Brodieman
04-18-2002, 08:51 PM
No SP SDK??!? Surely that is tantamount to commercial suicide? Surely Raven and LEC realise that they have a huge base following and to snub the loyalty and dedication of the fan base is to lessen themselves in our eyes. Raven have always been good with their stuff hpefully this will continue with JK2, we all want mods we all are ready to make mods we just need assisstance from the creators to make them simply brilliant experiences.

That's really disappointing to hear, no SP SDK.

ArmageddonX
04-18-2002, 10:41 PM
PERFECT...... I want to be involved... please! lol

Rajess MoDuron
04-19-2002, 11:24 AM
Don't hold me to that man, I'm just passing on a rumor I heard.

Now, as for joining the Mod...

So far, I'm pretty sure we are good with people right now. NRG (the group that is doing the modification AT SOME POINT, not necessarily immediately, we gots to warm up and shtuff) DOES need an animator. This much I know. Either an animator for the team, or an animator when we do eventually do the mod.

We have skinners, we have mappers, we have modellers (I think, correct me please) and we have programmers. Basically we're just waiting on the SDK and getting our feet wet.

Okay, MORE INPUT!!

What do you guys like?

What DON'T you like?

What have YOU noticed from the movies that you think would be cool to integrate?




MOREMOREMORE

Seth

Brodieman
04-19-2002, 02:36 PM
Bounty Hunters! please. Maybe mostly expanded environments too, or i should say more varied - a Gungan city or Calamari scene would be awesome i think. Best of all though a more interactive environment, i want that panel to smoke and spark when i sabre it in a duel. Any idea when this is going to get off the ground mate?

[-X-] Vagabond
04-19-2002, 03:53 PM
I want that MOD :)

Rajess MoDuron
04-19-2002, 03:53 PM
Yeah, I dunno about the Hunters...maybe.

As for when?

Like I know. The SDK release will help. Outrageously talented programmers wouldn't hurt. I think we have the programmers, but I don't truly know for sure.

We have the skinners, oh boy do we ever.

Yeah

Hopefully pretty fast.

Seth

toolboi
04-19-2002, 04:21 PM
There WILL be 7 forms of lightsaber combat. Each with it's own strengths, weaknesses, and animations.

Aint gonna happen. Unless you have softimage and inside sources at Raven the animations cant be changed (short of some VERY good hack jobs).

But what you could do is a variation of force speed to add speed levels to the current styles, that would give you at least 6 stances, but it'd be kinda... stupid... as it wouldnt add much (if anything) to the game. However I guess that you could edit the dammage of the two hidden stances and add them.

Rajess MoDuron
04-19-2002, 04:45 PM
How do you know you cannot do it?

Raven very well could release animation stuff with the SDK. I mean, good to hear negative input, but lets not jump to conclusions like that until the SDK comes out.

The SDK will make or break this idea. Either way, I want lucasarts to see this so they have at least an idea of what people maybe want just a little.

Thanks!

Seth

Rajess MoDuron
04-19-2002, 07:32 PM
So it sounds like the SDK will have animations tools with it. Now to move on to what the next thing you all think would be impossible!

NEXT

Seth

ArmageddonX
04-20-2002, 03:23 AM
Ok. Next Topic.
Sabre Styles
Obviously your going to add The Twin Sabres and the Double. Are you considering any other "unknown" styles. Like maybe a sort of sabre Sia. Ya know, the weapon that looks like a three pronged fork. The only example I can think of is the weapon Raphiel of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles used, he was the "red" turtle. lol.... That weapon, and OTHERs! like maybe a Sabre Rod. A force enstrengthened rod with a small sabre at the end. I don't know... What are your Ideas on different Sabre types???

shred_lord
04-20-2002, 11:10 AM
I'm not so sure it's worth possibly upsetting people over the addition of new types of sabre when the there is so much scope with adding new ways of using a *standard* single blade lightsabre. I not saying it's a bad idea but the double bladed style is already there (ala ep1) and two bladed is just a new way of using standard sabres.

Here's a few of my ideas for styles. (Note: all of the existing styles should be removed.)

Note: where I have mentioned 'positions' and 'stances', this assumes that each player can only choose one style and should be change between with the 'lightsabre stance key'.

Note: I must stress that I DO NOT practice any of the real world version of these styles. So, if get thing wrong please correct me

Style 1
Kendo.

This kinda incorporates the current styles. Kendo is the what lightsabre styles from eps 1,4,5 and 6 are based on (mixed with elements of tennis apparently!) It's based around several én-garde positions.

Hase-no-kamé. Think Qui Gon Jin and stong stance idle position.

Fast and strong, the sabre is held at the shoulder pointing at the sky, giving the ability to block with speed or strike with power.

Hase-no-jordan

Slow to react from (NOT slow to move), the sabre is held above the head with the hilt pointing at the opponents forehead. The position sacrifices defense for giving a crushing men (headstrike). Not to mush use for sabre combat except to batter someone defence.

(ok, can't remember the rest of the oriental names)

*Hidden guard*

Mostly a transitionary position, the sabre is held low with the tip pointing at a spot on the floor about 4-5 feet behind the swordsman, allowing a fast diagonal upward sweep but sacrificing the defence.

*Low guard*

Sabre is held in front at waist height with tip pointing at the opponents knees. Used for goading you opponent into a rash attack.

*Middle guard* (Think Obi Wan Kenobi in ANH)

The stongests all round position the sabre is held at waist height with the tip pointing at the opponents chest. This affords a strong defence as the opponent must walk into you sabre in order to get close enough to attack and is very fast to move from. Kendo masters will most often adopt this position and will 'play for position' by attempting to swipe there opponents blade aside and then attack. This is a postion for the patient swordsman as the fight will become very drawn out and often won by whoever keeps his cool for longer. The disadvantage is that is your attention is on one opponent and so in a multiple combatant situation this will leave you vulnerable to others.

Style 2
Fencing

This is one handed in style and won't provide much protection against a heavy blow. But you should be able to stab them and dodge before they land the strike.

One main én-garde postion which consists of holding the sabre at just above waist height with the tip pointing at the opponents chest. The body is slightly side on and the left hand held behind you.

This is an enormosly fast style but not very stong. Two fencers will dance back and forth jostling for postion and then one will kill the other with a clean stab to the chest or sometimes the head.

Occasionally the swords man will adopt a more head on stance and drive his opponent back with figure of 8 sweeping motions. Usually to gain a better position.

Style 3
Double Bladed Lightsabre

There are two way of fighting with a double bladed lightsabre.

Single Blade.

This is essentially a like kendo involving a lot of diagonal sweeps as the long hilt interfears with vertical stokes, it should be possible to perform a men .

Double Bladed

Err....watch ep1, Maul does most of the moves (they really packed them in :D ). Very good against multiple opponents.

Anyway just a few thoughts, anyone think of of other styles that could be adapted for the MOD?

Shred Lord

************************
Strke me down and I
will become more dead
than you can possibly imagine
************************

Edited for grammer and spelling

Brodieman
04-20-2002, 12:03 PM
I've has a burst of inspiration. Make Lightsabre throwing more costly to perform, not in force power use ratio, but in ramifications. If you are prepared to throw your lightsabre then be prepared to lose it and rely on the force until you recover it. I don't mean simply pressing the primaryattack button until it returns but i mean actively finding it then being able to recall it with force pull if you target it. This will ensure that MP matches don't become lightsabre throwing arenas which bores everyone to tears very quickly.

While my muse is still around maybe you could instigate a force clash thing when two or more (depending on number of combatants) similiar powers are used results in a force contest, the winner being the person with more force power left, or higher ranked in force ability, this could apply to force push/pull, lightning, grip etc.. you get my drift. The old republic Jedi should also have the ability to attempt and disarm opponents through the force, ie yanking away lightsabres from hands or shutting them down momentarily, of course this power would require special circumstances, maybe when the characters health is low, htey get a tremendous force boost (a last stand sort of thing) where they can initiate one power (within reason) that could alter the course of battle.

Ah again i prattle, hope you like the ideas.

Brodieman
04-21-2002, 10:42 AM
*BUMP*

ArmageddonX
04-22-2002, 01:01 PM
*Bump*

Brodieman
04-23-2002, 06:38 AM
*BUMP*

Arggghhhh! my head, ARMAGEDDON, ARMAGEDDON!!!

Darth Draugmahl
04-23-2002, 06:49 AM
Not to be a pessimist but Raven stated that it would not be possible to edit the animations without using softimage, which is extremely expensive. Apply a skeleton which performs the existing animations to a model will be perfectly possible but otherwise...eeee. This was also the case with Heretic II and even our resident math/programming geek was unable to modify them, though he was able to create a nice model conversion tool.

Either way it all sounds good so go for broke. Who knows, maybe someone will be able to hack into the animations and mix them up, who knows?

Rajess MoDuron
04-23-2002, 11:28 AM
It's not THAT bad, the guy who recruited me has SoftImage.

:)

Rajess MoDuron
04-23-2002, 11:37 AM
And at some point I swear I will give my response to all of you. I've just been incredibly busy with work lately. Nothing like the fear of God to make you a better worker!

Seth

Rajess MoDuron
04-24-2002, 12:53 PM
I told you guys at some point I'd go more in depth...expect that soon. Just letting you all know.

Seth

Raptor386
04-26-2002, 08:24 PM
Very nice! Just hope that the mp source doesn't take forever to come out.

Necro
04-27-2002, 01:59 AM
i like it!
i'd gladly do models >:D

also, how about class system

lets say a light class who gets the fast type attack, then u choose u saber and that kind of stuff?

Brodieman
05-01-2002, 04:17 AM
*brodieman backs up, takes a long run up and.......*

bump

Irimi-Ai
05-01-2002, 11:42 AM
THE GOOD:
i really like the ideas posted in this thread. i think one of the really cool implications of having saber dueling drain mana (or blocking draining mana) is that there would actually be a game mechanism in place that would make it more likely and beneficial for both duel-ers to back off in the middle of a fight and just circle each other, so that their mana could recharge. that would be cool. i like the idea of the saber stances and all that stuff.

THE (POTENTIALLY) BAD:
IF the SP SDK is not released, you need to do two things. first, you would need softimage, as someone already said. second, if you have a good team and start building material/resources, then email raven and see if they will help you. they said they will work with mods if they have a good team and a good amount of work done. these would be *necessary* if a SP SDK will not be released.

THE UGLY:
lastly, i personally don't like the idea of 'buying' saber styles/stances/etc. with points in-game, a la CS. i *strongly* do not like this system. i just think they should be selectable like any other options in the player config. i've always had a problem with that CS set-up. it means that the better players get access to better weapons and better defenses, which makes it more likely that they will continue to 'win'. the people who aren't as good, though, never get access to the better weapons or defenses which makes it more likely that they will continue to lose. so, the better players get the best weapons and defenses (and thereby best chance to survive) and players who are starting out or not as good with the worst weapons and defenses and have the worst chance to survive. that makes NO sense to me. if someone is not as good, there would be little motivation to stay in a game where you are continually beaten and you aren't allowed to use the better weapons/defenses to increase your chances. i think it would a shame for this mod to lose players because they get frustrated and never get use the more advanced styles. hell, if you wanted to make it really interesting you could make it so that the better a player is the *fewer* saber style options she/he has. that way, the people who are not as good and may need better offense/defense get them so they have a chance, and those who are really good have few options. because then it would be really impressive if someone was still getting the most kills while using the most rudimentary/'worst' saber style. anyway, just my thoughts.

if this mod uses that buying-point system, i will probably not play it, in all honesty. i'd like to use the moves, etc., but i just have no interest in playing games with that point-buying system (or, i might just take it and edit it myself and remove the point-buying system all-together just for personal use). let me state (before people start flaming me), that i played CS for a long time and was pretty damn good (and i'm not bad at JK2, either). i just got sick of that system. i thought it was wrong that i would have access to all the good offense/defense, when those who really needed it couldn't get it.

Irimi-Ai

Brodieman
05-10-2002, 08:18 PM
Bump, c'mon seth, lets hear some more mate.

The Truthful Liar
05-10-2002, 08:36 PM
Since you are waiting for a response from him it is my duty to notify you all that... Seth (also Rajess if you got lost) has been quite busy with his work lately so it might be a couple days before he get back into action.

oh btw, hi :wavey:

Brodieman
05-11-2002, 04:52 AM
Originally posted by AB_Legion
Since you are waiting for a response from him it is my duty to notify you all that... Seth (also Rajess if you got lost) has been quite busy with his work lately so it might be a couple days before he get back into action.

oh btw, hi :wavey:

G'day mate, umm yeah thought as much, but i keep bumping it to generate new ideas and interest. thanks for the response.

Picasso
05-11-2002, 09:24 AM
Ehh....... Duel of the fates... darrrth maaaul *drooles*

Actually that sounds good.. I REALLY like the movie-concept, lets just see if you do it good..
I can map a little too *waves* ;)

Jarrodo Malachi
05-11-2002, 02:48 PM
hey seth if you want to get a good idea on saber styles then go rent this game for the playstation or dreamcast console

" Jedi Power Battles" it's a really good game that has mace, obi, qui gon, adi gaila, and some other guy.

as the progress through the EP 1 level settings they gain new combos and force powers (MACE IS THE COOLEST!!! he has the most "skill")

Darth Maul is in there too and he's also a playable character with his own combos.(got to do a cheat to get him tho).

oh and i think their blocks are not auto but manual

Rajess MoDuron
05-13-2002, 07:59 PM
Bump

__CKY__
05-14-2002, 01:18 AM
yea power battles is a fun game i like playing it lol any time soon your starting on mod

PARIDOX
05-14-2002, 03:39 AM
Hey im heavily interested in modelling the bald character in "KNIGHTS OF THE OLD REPUBLIC" so if anybody have more pics of this guy plz post here !!!!

i mean rare pics from e3 !!

Rajess MoDuron
05-14-2002, 02:15 PM
We're planning on attempting to incorporate something like the Jedi Power Battles enemy lock, but it could manifest itself in many ways. We'll poll it. ;)

Rajess MoDuron
05-21-2002, 04:09 PM
Alright ladies and gentlemen. I’ve been meditating for some time now, and can now tell you guys some more about where I see this jank going.

SABER COMBAT STYLES:

Still seven of them, baby. One of course would be double bladed (at least one, there may be allowances in the other forms for sithsaber though)

At least three will allow for use of akimbos.

Akimbos however, cannot be chosen like the sithsaber would be, you would have to pick up another saber and use that.

Gameplay will be slowed down by 25%.

That whole Force=Stamina stuff.

A type of “opponent lock” system would be incorporated.



The basic idea, as always, is to make the game more tactical and less attractive to those people who harp on every single bug in the system like the backstab or DFA in order to win games. Of course those people will still play it, but we want to make them work as hard as possible to attain those victories J.

Something else I’ve been jumbling around in my head is this.

Blue, Green, Red, and Purple. And variations of these colors. Only saber colors. Good? Bad? Anal retentive? REPLY!

The Truthful Liar
05-21-2002, 04:37 PM
Okay.. I've had alot of ideas running today, so here's a collection of what I've been thinking for the future of this mod.

These ideas are in no way concrete or will hinder the production of this mod, they are only ideas which I need to store somewhere for others to read and for myself to look back on.

Now for the following :)
(partly from a conversation with that I had with Seth/Rajess)


I was reading a thread about Force connected to lightsabers, and one point did catch my eye: It was based on how a jedi would use the force to "locate" a weak spot or an opening in his opponent and that would direct his attack into a specific area..

- So.. maybe a "locating" system could be engaged. This would enable a small 'target box' pointing out areas in your opponent where to next attack, for the defender it is his job to have quick enough reflexes to notice that he is about to be attacked on any spot that he isn't carefully protecting.

(Now... if this were to be applied, I'd say that the speed of the game would have to be at least slowed down by 25%-50%. Also note that when engaged in a duel, your saber and character never leaves his aim from the opponent, unless he has been pushed, kicked or hit.)

- This "targetting system" idea really tickled my fancy (oi that sounds strange :p) and it really would add to the gameplay. I'm not sure if it could be used properly though... It would prove the person with quickest reflexes wins, one factor must be adressed is to wether have this manuever system as a seperate gameplay, or add it to the "realism" of sabering, or have it as a toggled/selected force option.

- A white box would appear when your opponent has warily given you a spot to attack him and then turns red when locked giving you a clear shot unless he reacts quick enough and swiftly blocks the attack before recieving the blow.

- The white box would be more of a "searching type" it'd circulate around the opponent looking for weak points and when it finds the proper area it locks on and turns red, for the defender when your target locks that part of his body which is about to be hit would have a luminescent area glow about warning him of his immenent doom unless his reflexes are quick enough.

(Quick note to self: The targetting system would be more accurate pending to your level of understanding in the force.)

- I was reminiscing the part when Yoda and Dooku are about to fight, and up to the point where Dooku admits that "Obviously we are both very -knowledgable- in the force so let our sabers decide.." something along those lines, if you are planning to have this mod as more of a RPG then your skills would be directed to the ammount of force you are capable of performing.

- If this shall not be an 'RPG type' then I suggest to not introduce "light force" and 'dark force' nor a force pool iether (a different type of counter would replace the Force mana thing). Pending on the ammount of force you have learned you can also act upon those force powers. Dark or light doesn't matter, you can use the force for good or evil only THAT would be the deciding factor in which you are iether labeled as a dark lord or a true jedi.

- Seriously though, I have a hard time seeing you choose "dark force powers" or "light forces" it's annoying to me since the force is truly ONE. You can use force pull for good things or bad, as well as any force - to expand on that thought, in a sense there are no especial "force powers" it is just 'THE FORCE'. Jedi and Dark Jedi alike bend or manipulate the force that surrounds them for good or evil purposes. (at their own will)

- To continue on the issue of having no certain "force power" availiable MIGHT actually be do-able. Yet you must choose your path to the dark side or the light side, this way people are restricted from going frantic, as a lightside user pending on the ammount of good|vs|evil you do you attain a "force level" bar, which counts the good you have done against the evil.

- This lets the player know wether he is crossing the borderline of iether force 'side'. So.. A Force Level bar on the left hand side going horizontally, counting in which direction the player is leaning towards (dark or light). A roundtype force pool on the right hand side counts how much knowledge you have accumiliated in the ways of the force. As well as one more bar counting your strength in the areas of Sabering, Agility (etc..) and a seperate area in which certain force powers that you have learned would be listed and show how you are increasing in each force power to different degrees.

Well that's pretty much on my mind, for anyone who is interested you can visit the NRG - New Revolutionary Gaming site at www.jmoj.net/nrg - Note that it is only temporary until Aristotle gives us the Ftp info.

[Edit: We are looking for some serious modellers and texture artists btw]

Cheers ;)

WarteX
05-21-2002, 05:00 PM
i hope u will make this mod rajess!

it would b awesome

The Truthful Liar
05-21-2002, 05:19 PM
Ah, yes my post above --^ is quite lengthy but please do not be intimidated and just bear with me :)

I'm sure it isn't a bad read, and we all could do with alittle extra reading nowadays wouldn't you agree ;)

The Truthful Liar
05-22-2002, 03:21 PM
Don't tell me you guys don't care anymore!! :eek:

THIS THREAD DESERVES More input!

:)

Rajess MoDuron
05-22-2002, 04:38 PM
<starts crying like Tammy Faye Baker in front of the press, make-up running and stuff>

Vesentac
05-22-2002, 09:44 PM
Answer: The effort taken to use the force against another force user isn't worth it if both combatants are of comperable abilities, in fact, when you have no massive advantage in ability, it costs you more than it earns. Use of the force is simply a way to express the power you COULD hold over the other person if you so chose........

Rajess MoDuron
.

Not exactly true

...its is so fast and intence that unless you altered your perception of time it would be impossible to keep up. this is described in Tales of the Jedi and Dark Empire as "battle meditation" in which the jedi basicly hightens their perception and percieves reality as "slowed down" while their own reactions increase.
Exar


Not exactly accurate.

Jedi Battle Meditation was the ability to project "the wanted outcome" of a battle on others. For the Light side, it was more of a morale boost. For the Sith, it was to cloud and confuse the enemy. The most famous of the Jedi who could exercise JBM were Master Arca and Nomi Sunrider. JBM was powerful enough to turn the tides of battles.

As I tread on EU(Expanded Universe), we are reminded this information really isnt "official" by George Lucas. Nonetheless, this information is quite logical and accurate.

When you say Knights of the Old Republic, Rajess MoDuron , are you refering to the time of yoda, or beyond that to the time of around the Sith war with Exar Kun? The force abilities between those two eras are quite extensive.

Meaning, Jedis' of Yoda's time < Exar's time. Nomi and some other Jedi masters knew of a technique which could seal away the opponent in a "wall of light", rendering the opponent blind to the force. The effect could be permanent or temporary depending on the choice of the user. This is contrary to the belief of "expressing forceble power".

The reason due to the gap in "power" is seen in the sith war. Although a book was recoverd by Luke in JBM in Dark Empire.

Ko'or Oragahn
05-22-2002, 11:37 PM
Most Extensive Mod...EVER (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39277&perpage=40&pagenumber=1)

Dear Raven, a block key for lightsabers? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=562214#post562214)

Lightsaber theories (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54436)



Absorb lightning with Saber? (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=562205#post562205)

Darth Darth
05-23-2002, 03:56 AM
This sounds like a pretty good idea, but I hope you dont simply nerf most of the force powers. Make them easier to counter, yes, but dont simply use the force bar as a sort of armor. How about, remove the focus entirely from wearing down an oponents health or armor, and instead make the focus on not getting hit at all. Make it easier to control the saber, and have people actively block attacks. Read my post in the game feedback forum, I posted a lot on this subject. I wrote up an idea for a different lightsaber control system in which you would not have to choose between moving the direction you want and making the swing you want.

Rajess MoDuron
05-23-2002, 11:13 AM
One thing I thought about, and this is a pretty complex idea I think, might be wrong though, is having keys on the keypad bound to specific areas of an opponent's body. For instance, if you wanted to make a strike towards their upper left, you would press keypad 7 in preparation.

Your opponent would get some kind of indication that you were planning to do this (ala star wars trilogy arcade's duels with vader and boba). This could be pretty cool, and was another idea I was tossing about.

In response to Vesantec, by Knights of the Old Republic I am referring to Yoda's time, the prime of the Jedi right before the Empire.

Secondly, why:?

Answer: The effort taken to use the force against another force user isn't worth it if both combatants are of comperable abilities, in fact, when you have no massive advantage in ability, it costs you more than it earns. Use of the force is simply a way to express the power you COULD hold over the other person if you so chose........

Rajess MoDuron

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

.

Not exactly true



I'd just like to hear more about why you don't agree with that.

Thanks for the input folkies, really loving it!

Rajess MoDuron
05-23-2002, 11:33 AM
I think the first thing we are going to try and do is change all the stances, make the saber swing at the same speed all the time, and merely increase or decrease the likelyhood of defensive blocking. The saber will do the same amount of damage in each stance, at least at first. Depending on playtesting this may change if determined to be, for lack of a better word, retarded.

BLUE: Not very good on the offense, but an excellent defensive form, has the highest percentage of defensive blocking, probably being somewhere aroun 75%. Red (unlike before, where it would get murdered) is the only form that consistantly break through this forms defenses in short order. For people who prefer to sit back and wait for their opponent to over-extend themselves to strike. If on the offensive, parries by your opponent are far more likely, so you want to be careful not to overextend YOURSELF.

YELLOW: Nice middle of the road. Blocking at around 45% while both on the offensive and the defensive. Don't really have much more to say about this one.

RED: Used by those who have...agression problems. Blocking on the defensive at around 15%, whereas while on the offensive it is set at 85%, with little to no likelyhood of a parry by your opponent.



Lemme know what you think!

DarthFreak
05-23-2002, 01:17 PM
Seems a good idea.

Rajess MoDuron
05-23-2002, 01:19 PM
Speed of strikes will depend on how much force stamina you have, to simulate weariness.

DarthFreak
05-23-2002, 01:43 PM
Seems another good idea.

The Truthful Liar
05-23-2002, 04:27 PM
I like the idea of keypad numbers in accordance to the direction/area of where you are to hit. Still thinking, will add more when I've fully given thought to this. :thumbsup:

Vesentac
05-23-2002, 10:03 PM
Rajess MoDuron,

Read my last paragraph for the explanation. Course, this is before yoda's time and this is how one could render his/her opponent blind to the force forever.

The Truthful Liar
05-24-2002, 01:44 PM
Yeah, but how would that effect gameplay and especially how could that be fun? =\

Rajess MoDuron
05-24-2002, 04:01 PM
<is still confused>

Darth Darth
05-24-2002, 09:16 PM
I posted a rather long thread on the game feedback board about this saber combat. I don't think the saber stances should be simply trade-offs between attack, defense, and speed. I think the stances should be based on how far from your body you hold the saber. Outer, middle, and inner stances, with each having different attacks and strenghts and weaknesses that would realisticly affect each stance. I one of the star wars novels, Luke Skywalker explains lightsaber combat to students at the jedi academy, and he talks about the 3 stances. I think perhaps outer stance would hold the saber aimed roughly at an oponents chest, like the standard Kendo stance, Middle would be the clasic stance, with the lightsaber aimed up a bit more, and Inner would hold it close to your chest pointing almost straight up, similar to the strong stance. Middle would have the fastest attacks, and would be able to counter several attacks in quick succesion. Outer would be a bit slower to reverse the direction of a swing, would have fast, fairly strong attacks, but an enemy who got in close to you could get past your defense. Inner would have short range, and be good at blocking attacks, but if an attack managed to penetrate your defense, it would definately hit because your sword is only blocking an enemy sword a foot from your body. This stance would also give you a disadvantage in saber locks.

For double bladed sabers, you couldhave stances be based on how he holds the sword. Horizontal, vertical, or diagonal. Vertical would basicly block your body off with the blade, making it great for defending against blaster shots from straight ahead, and against horizontal cuts. You could execute great thrusting moves with this mode, however spins would be impossible. Horizontal would be best for defending against attacks of any kind coming from your sides, and could execute great slashing attacks. Diagonal would be the best all around for saber defense. Im not as sure about the double saber stances.

As for twin sabers, I have 2 stances I can think of. One is facing straight towards your enemy, with your chest pointed at him, so neither sword is in front. In this mode both swords could fully engage the enemy, making it ideal for fighting off more than 1 oponent. It would also be better for executing rolls and jumps. In the other mode, one saber is leading and the other a bit behind. This mods would be better for spins and backswings, the back saber could make short thrusts, and could act as a weaker second line of defense against attacks that penetrate the leadings saber.

ErionD
05-25-2002, 06:35 AM
lol just got this cool idea. Though it is for Ep2 it would be cool!
But you arent making ep2 or what?
Anyways:


Make it so that you can ride the big bull/rhino thing that Anakin jumps up on.
The goal is to run over as many droids as possible!

Darth Darth
05-25-2002, 07:44 PM
Er, that thing beneath the word spoiler is just appearing as a white rectangle to me. Is it supposed to be a picture, or what?

The Truthful Liar
05-25-2002, 08:34 PM
No, see what you do is you drag your mouse over that area and that will select the text behind it so you can read what he's blocked out :)

Verlex
05-25-2002, 11:57 PM
I am not sure if this has been posted but fencing COULD NOT be a stance. As a fencer I can tell you that fencing is a mash of Parry Riposte until someone gets hit. Ofcourse there are different blocks and attacks but having 60 parries and 3 ripostes just wouldnt make a good stance and it would be to long of a fight if done fencer to fencer. Personally I just wanna see double sword and Wookie stance. Beat people with your wookie. Looser would be first to break their wookie

"I broke my Wookie!"

Darth Darth
05-26-2002, 01:37 AM
Lol, wookie does sound kinda like a guys pet name for his tool. Anyway, I don't think the fencing has been mentioned, but it pretty much goes without saying that a person who tried to fence with a lightsaber would get cloven in half. Using just one hand against an oponent using 2 hands, the oponents attacks would not have much trouble just smashing through your defense. Now, a lightsaber in one hand and a blaser or thhermal detonator in the other would be cool, but that would be more useful in single player than multiplayer, so its a bit out of place here.

TimbeRdoG
05-26-2002, 08:13 AM
I like all this stuff pretty much, but I have some suggestions too.
First, I am completely annoyed with the control system which now present in the game. Clicking a mouse buttons + move keys simultaneously really suck because you start to move in the direction you pressed. What I would really like to see in such a game is a control system similar to Die By The Sword (DbtS). You press a mouse button and then “draw some figures with a mouse”. Horizontal line means a horizontal slash, circle - 360 degree – slash and a vertical movement could be a piercing attack or a “death from above”. There is a substantial difference between DbtS and what I am talking about though. In DbtS there was no fixed attacks AT ALL, so your sword completely repeated all moves you made with a mouse and it was too difficult to fight in such way. In our case, I simply suggest to substitute pressing movement keys with a mouse moves.
Second, auto-facing the enemy should be implemented.
Third… coming soon :)

Sorry for my English :(

Darth Darth
05-27-2002, 04:36 AM
I have been saying the exact same thing. I made a long post in the game feedback board saying the exact same thing; that you should drag the mouse button to execute moves. Obi-Wan for the PC was going to have that kind of control scheme before it was cancelled. Read my post in the game feedback forum, entitled "How it should have been done." I also think the stances should be way different; it doesn't make sense to have a tradeoff between speed and attack power, since a lightsaber weighs less than 5 pounds, and the blade is just a force field, so the center of mass is right in the handle.

Flash25
05-27-2002, 06:20 PM
There are two things that really degenerate saber combat into a bunch of players spamming one move. The first is the ability to knock someone down, and the second is the one hit kill move. Before the patch came out, there was no good reason not to use the red stance. Kick or push/pull someone and then swing, this is how the people who dominated the servers played. With the advent of 1.03, the prevailing technique became kick or push/pull then backstab.

I know you intend to make one hit kills, but you also seem intent on differentiating styles by penetration power and speed. I would advise you to be careful with this. The differences in styles should not be much more than cosmetic. When you start to create differences in power between styles, players will distill them and find the one move or technique that offers the greatest benefit, practice that technique, then use it in a game with virtually no effort. When you add in the ability to immobilize someone with a kick or force power, you end up with dull rounds of one-dimensional saber fighting.

LordUlic
05-27-2002, 07:15 PM
This is going to be so cool! The whole seven stances idea is awesome! Sorry that wasn't really ensightfull but I had to say something:deathstar

LordUlic
05-27-2002, 07:19 PM
Oh yeah....when do you estimate this is going to come out? or are you just starting?:deathstar

Darth Darth
05-27-2002, 10:36 PM
Thats exactly what Im talking about Flash. The stances should not be based on a simple tradeoff between power and speed. They need to be something more complex, with the techniques for each stances all being in different styles. And tradeoffs between power and speed just dont make sense with lightsabers; the things weigh 5 pounds, it's not like they are hard to heft or anything. That is why I like the idea of inner, outer, and middle stance, based on how far from your body you hold the saber. Each one has different pros and cons that aren't as simple as fast vs strong, and each one would naturally have different attacks. Once again, I implore you guys to read my thread in the game feedback forum, I would really like for some people to tell me what they think of my ideas.

Ko'or Oragahn
05-27-2002, 10:52 PM
First, I made a little Edit of my post over this thread (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&postid=562336#post562336).

Now, let's talk about the other important modifications in the gameplay (and even more).



Seven fighting styles ?

I don't really fancy this. I mean, ok, the VD tried to sum up and differentiate all the styles shown up in AOTC, but as it was pointed out by some guys here and even described as crap by others who are not newbies in martial arts, I think the devs of this mod should think a bit more by themselves.

The Visual Dictionnary don't even catagorize Maul's style.

And as I said somewhere in the mod big thread :

I almost disagree when they make a difference between Mace's and Obi-wan's, saying that Mace's is less flashy.

In game, you won't need to switch between these so-called two different styles because in fact Mace's is only Obi-Wan's without too much moves but with more direct hit and kill ones.

You don't need to switch to adopt such a behavior !


So that's why I say it's up to you to define the real different styles.

True, Mace is less flashy, but when it comes to the game, it doesn't deserve its own style. It would be purely artificial.
Player can already be less flashy with the actual version of the MP game. They don't need some useless style stuff.

The truth is that Mace is better than Obi-Wan when it comes to lightsabre. That's all. Less spins and twirls. That's all.

That's why I think YOUR styles should almost correspond to the weapon you use (see below).

Btw I totally agree that all the moves should be quick, except for the spins that logically would take a bit mroe time, just a bit, as you would have to make a 360° circle before you hit your oponent.

Each weapon requires a style.

It's gonna be quite easy. We'll have to sum up all possible kinds of lightweapons we have or could have in SW and how they look like.

- Lightsabre. Classic, used by most of the Jedi.
- Lightsabre akimbo. Example : Boc.
- Curved lightsabre. Example : Darth Tyrannus.
- Long hilted lightstaff. Example : Darth Maul. Special feature : Can be breaked into TWO lightsabres ; then reverting to lightsabre akimbo style). Note : I say two lightsabres because in TPM, if you look closely, you will notice that the severed other part of Maul's lightstaff is still active after being cut off.
- Short hilted lightstaff. Mostly one handled grip. Example : Exar Kun.
- Lightdagger akimbo. Blades held upside down. I don't remember seeing such weapons but many fans want it.

Of course there may be more weapons for more styles, but this already enough.

I think a player shouldn't be confined to only one style.
Otherwise how could Anakin have used to lightsabres when he usually fights with only one ?

I think you should have the possibility :

1. To add points to any style you want.
2. Be able to pick up lightsabres from dead players.

Defense / Attack.

This is a bit bigger. There are many solutions. Moduron's team seem to aim to a mod that keeps refereing a system based on blue/yellow/red behaviors.

Yep, I think it's good. It makes three behaviors per style.

And as we can zap from a favorite style to another, it brings a lot of possibilities.

Attributes.

Rajess, I need your opinion about that one. SOme of the following ideas were partially covered in this thread (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=39277&perpage=40&pagenumber=2) (<- this is an important thread that had a lot of interesting ideas).

I truely believe it has to tend to a lesser part toards a RPG aspect. Not too much but enough to have more defined and specific attributes and then characters.

I think it is a must to have such attributes as :

Some of you attributes will have a maximum that will decrease if you move too much or get hurt. For example, if you get touched by a bolt, the maximum of stamina bar will decerase, as the time needed to recover your stamina. No more stamina equals to death.

- Age : Affects your Force mastery but also your physical attributes as your physiognomy, velocity and more. The higher your age, the higher your Force mastery could be but the lower your physical aptitudes.

- Stamina : Affects your capacity to jump, run and swing your weapon. It is the most important attribute, as when it hits null, you die. 0 stamina equals death. Stamina and maximum stamina will decrease if you move too much and/or get hurt. For example, if you get touched by a bolt, your stamina and its maximum will decrease, as will the time needed to recover it. No more stamina equals to death. Only the Force will give you the possibility to increase and then recover your initial maximum stamina.

- Strenght : Defines how strong your attacks can be do go through your oponent blocks. Very usefull in lightsabre blocks, but you'll need to have the highest mastery in lightsabre fights if you don't want your character to always get caught by an overuse of unmasterized strenght. Like in judo.

- Velocity : The time needed to attack, block and parry.

- Speed : Defines how fast you can walk or run.

- Armor : The heavier your armor, the better you're protected. But each armor has weak parts (eg. Vader's helmet and forearms were weakier than his epaulets). Btw, the more your armor will be heavy and protect you, the less your speed, velocity and jump capacity will be.
Finally, a heavy armor like Vader's will forbid you from some lightsabre moves. Most of these forbidden moves are the ones coming from above yourself.

- Force concentration : Highly affected by your stamina. It has a maximum. Unlike the stamina, the Force concentration maximum will never decrease.
The higher your Force concentration, the more efficient your lightsabre moves.
Keeping fighting, dodging, slashing, jumping and running will make your Force concentration decrease.
You'll be able to recover concentration by calming down and stop fighting and also by using Force Power as Force Stamina (only for Jedi - will make you crouch à la Qui-Gon Jinn like when he was fighting Maul in TPM - note that this function already exist in the SP mode of JO and was used when recovering health with the lower levels of Force Health, which will no longer exist and will be converted into Force Stamina).

- Dark side : Err, this is quite hard to explain, but the goal is to convert the TPM's Obi-Wan berserk rage against Maul into the dynamics of the game. More rage equals more strenght, but makes you more opened to counter attacks.
If a Jedi dwelves too much into the dark side, he will lower his own defenses against his oponents Force attacks (meaning that not only Sith can take advantage of that). Same happens if a Sith goes too much berserk. He gets too much focused on rage and agression and can't foresse anything coming against him.


And more... these attributes are only first thought ideas btw.



I'll post more info about Force powers later.

The Truthful Liar
05-28-2002, 03:00 AM
hmm.. well I suppose this is kind of self-imposing :p but I've just started on an Egyptian map:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=57623

Whaddya think :D

ah yes... please add a post with your views on Force Powers next (I'm getting tired of all the saber ideas, same ol' same ol')

Cheers ;)

oh btw, Seth I came up with a few more new Ideas on Absorb... I'll fill you in later :)

bigDAN456
05-28-2002, 04:08 AM
another style you could put in is two double bladed light sabers at the same time

Rajess MoDuron
05-28-2002, 10:57 AM
A style like that would be far too open, especially in the middle sections of the body.

Impractical, and would never be used.

The Truthful Liar
05-28-2002, 11:05 AM
I concurr. :evanpiel:

Rajess MoDuron
05-28-2002, 05:43 PM
Okay, it’s that time again folks. Time for me to review, revise, and replan.

I never used to used to like outlines, but I’ll use one here because I think it is appropriate.


I. What is this Mod?
A. One day I sat playing J.O. on a server, this was around March or so, and I was doing pretty well, except for against this one person. You know the guy, the one who completely spams one move or another, be it DFA or the backstab. There’s always one. Anyway, I was going mostly halfsies with this guy, while completely owning everyone else on the server. It was beginning to irritate me, as I would whittle him down to some ridiculously small amount of health, at which point he would DFA me and it would all be over. He’d say “GG! 5 health”, so at least he was a good winner, unlike so many others of his kind, who would likely call me a newb or something ridiculous like that. At any rate, I was getting irritated. Then I saw and read some spoiler reports that told of 7 forms of lightsaber combat, and how there were differences in each one. Then I got fed up with the idea of strong attacks being slower than all the others, when in actuality if you want to be exact, they would have to be faster given the masslessness of the blade, and other things. I determined then and there to come up with a comprehensive plan to redo MP lightsaber combat completely, make it more like the movies, and less prone to one hit killing.
B. RPG or FPS? Well, somewhere down the line, I wanted to incorporate some things that would benefit people who played a lot, played well, and were respectful of other players. I determined that the best way to do this was to frustrate those who were spammers or whatever by not allowing them to progress in force powers and styles. But how to do this? Well, if all goes well, this mod will incorporate ideas from both FPS and RPG systems. I’ll go more in-depth on this later.
C. Something else that bothered me was the complete and total spamming of force powers like drain, grip, push and pull to attain quick punk victories. To this end, many of these powers will either be removed or ‘nerfed’. But will they really be nerfed I ask you? I don’t think so, I prefer to think of it as making them more realistic, as we are to believe the people we see in the movies are the most powerful force wielders of their time, if not ever, why would everyone be on a higher level of potential than them? If Darth Maul could only push Obi-Wan about 7 feet or so, and the only reason he fell down was because of the complete lack of ground beneath him, then why should someone on an internet server be able to push EVERYONE 10 feet one at a time and then have time to backstab or DFA them? Don’t make sense to me, and it don’t seem right.

II. Gameplay additions/subtractions
A. Force Stamina.
1. Brief explanation of concept. Okay, people don’t run around with personal shields in Star Wars Movies, and people don’t survive most hits with a lightsaber (especially if they are droids or insectoids). At the same time though, lightsaber duels are usually long and drawn out, and there is a definite sense of fatigue. In addition, force users rarely use their force powers against each other. I came to the conclusion that this lack of using force powers against fellow users is due to the fact that using it leaves you open, requires concentration, and requires stamina. I also wanted to punish those that use push all the time. People who use push all the time will find themselves with little stamina very quickly and dead even faster. Basically, you cannot be hit until you’re out of stamina, and when you are out of stamina, you better not get hit, or you’ll be dead (when your max stamina hits 0, you’re dead anyway, but I’ll get into that in a second).
2. The flow of the force. The force is a constant cycle, feeding into itself, and so your stamina will regenerate over time. This regeneration will be divided into two sections, pure physical regeneration in which having a lower level will be better, and force knowledge regeneration, in which the higher your level, the better. Certain things will prevent your stamina from recharging fully, but the recharge rate should be fast enough to make things fun.
3. Actions that cost stamina. Basically everything but walking, crouching, and normal blocking. I say normal blocking because every strike made at you will be ‘blocked’ until the last one, with an animation and everything. The difference being that normal blocking is like blocking now, you blocked it, enough said. Riposting (better than a parry, an actual strike back) when done automatically shall also be free.
4. Actions that regenerate stamina. Certain force powers will regenerate force stamina, so rather than detract from your stamina they will enhance, but at the same time will leave you open to attack, should an opponent get close enough. While these powers are in use, stamina will no longer be useful as a ‘shield’ and any strike against you will be fatal, so use with caution.
5. Max stamina v.s. Present stamina. Max stamina is the maximum amount that your character can get. Actions such as being ‘hit’ with a lightsaber or falling from a high height will be the only things that can detract from this. Be careful, as when this reaches 0, you die.
B. Lightsaber Combat.
1. Explaination of concepts. Swordplay in and of itself is a complex art, be it Kendo, Epee, Foil, or Saber fencing. A person’s style says a lot about them, and such. For the purpose of this modification, the forms will be differentiated by the following values:
a. Likelyhood of block in Blue, Yellow, and Red (while en guard and on the attack).
b. Likelyhood of parry in Blue, Yellow, and Red (while en guard and on the attack).
c. Likelyhood of Riposte in Blue, Yellow, and Red (while en guard and on the attack).
d. Blockability of strikes.
e. Parryability of strikes.
f. Likelyhood to be riposted.
2. The forms. There will be at this time 4 forms for the lightsaber, 1 for the sithsaber, and 1 undecided. They will work thusly
a. The lightsaber forms will focus on Yellow as being the norm that most people will use. It will be the most effective segment of this form, having the highest likelihood for an effective riposte or parry in this form. Red will have a low likelihood of riposte or parry, but will also have less likelihood of similar retaliation. Blue will be the most defensive, having very high likelihood of block and parry, but much lower likelihood of riposte than yellow. Users of blue will likely be resting while their opponent expends energy in an assault, users of yellow will be ‘semper paratus’ (always prepared), while users of red will be the more aggressive of the species. The main differences between the lightsaber forms will be in the animations and the lag between en guard and attack.
b. The sithsaber, on the other hand, will have the differences in blue, yellow, and red be based on how many people you are going up against, with the most defensive (blue) being focused on as many as 4 opponents.
c. ALL LIGHTSABER FORMS will have ability to ‘go John Woo’ (akimbo).
d. Riposting will be done AUTOMATICALLY when the combat system detects that an opponent has opened a hole in their defenses through the ferocity/recklessness of their attack. It will ALWAYS ‘hit’
C. Example of a NF Duel.
1. Meet Obi-Wan. Obi Wan Kenobi was an apprentice to Qui-Gon Jinn, up to like three minutes ago, that is. He is a Jedi Padawan with pretty average skills with the lightsaber, but the physical ability to meet almost any challenge. We’ll set his Max Stamina at 100, and he’s had some time to rest since the last confrontation, so he’s all set at 100/100.
2. Meet Darth Maul. He’s the Nar Shadaan badass from the old school. He just finished off Jedi Master Qui-Gon Jinn, and now he’s ready for more. The old guy almost got him, and he’s at half strength from hard fighting, but he is still more powerful than Obi-Wan, at 135/110.
3. The forcefield doors open, and Obi-Wan runs in to the room. It takes him 2 seconds to get there, but he was running. 1 stamina point per second for running, he is down to 100/98. He attacks at Maul, who effortlessly blocks. It cost Obi-Wan 3 stamina to make the attack, but he had a second to regenerate a stamina point, so he is down to 100/97, Maul is up to 135/113 after three seconds of regeneration. Obi-Wan blocks the strike and ripostes, turning the riposte into a combo of four strikes, two of which ‘hit’ (Obi-Wan: [4*3=12] [12-3(riposte being free)=9] [97-9=88] Obi-Wan=100/88) (Maul: [3*15=45] [135-45=90] [113-45=68] Maul=90/68 So the battle goes. We all know what happened there.
III. Force Powers, Mission Statement and Application
A. How Use of the Force Works With Force Stamina. Pretty simple. Using the force decreases or increases the amount of energy you can concentrate on fighting your opponent, therefore it will affect your stamina. Some powers will be beneficial to the fight, some will be beneficial to the character, and some will be just for fun, when you are really beating the crap out of someone and want to shock them, ala Palpatine or Dooku.
B. Neutral Powers
1. Force Jump: Okay, these dudes when they’re jumping do not float down to the ground, laws of gravity cannot be disregarded. Jumping will not be floating. You will move quickly through the air, and a high jump will have to be charged up. Sort of like in JK, only with some JO nuances thrown in for style points.
2. Force Lightsaber Combat: This will make ripostes cost less than normal strikes. If normal strikes cost 3, this power will make ripostes cost 1 to make, as they are made automatically.
3. Force Push: Will be used mostly to push projectiles thrown at you away harmlessly, or push someone whose stamina is VERY low over a cliff or something. It will NOT be used when you are close to death and just want to win at any cost, as the effectiveness of this power will depend on both your stamina and the stamina of the target (if applicable).
4. Force Enhance Reflexes. This will be the first force power that will diminish the effect a ‘hit’ will have on your stamina. Where the base subtraction may be 5, this power being active will make it 3 or something, but like all good loans or mortgages, will require a down payment. Don’t use it unless you really need it.
C. Light Side Powers
1. Force Lightsaber Focus: This is the light side power that will incorporate “position direct targeting” if we incorporate it, which means that use of the keypad will in combination with the attack button will allow you to more effectively direct your lightsaber to a specific area of your opponent’s body. Want to attack their midsection with a stab? Press keypad 5 and then the attack button. Might be a little lofty, might not be incorporated, in which case this would probably just subtract from the cost of making an attack.
2. Force Calm: Will diminish the effect other people’s force powers have on you (when used aggressively).
3. Force Control Lightsaber: If “position direct targeting” is incorporated, will replace you pushing the keys with a computer controlled program that will strategically make attacks in places so that your opponent will become more open to the killing blow.
4. Force Sense Future: If “position direct targeting” is incorporated, will somehow tip you off to the area that an opponent is targeting, so that you can be better prepared to block or execute a counterstroke.
5. Force Absorb Attack: Will completely diminish the effect aggressive force powers have on you, and will even replenish your stamina. Will cost a bulk amount, but should repay in dividends if used at the right time.
D. Dark Side Powers
1. Force Lightsaber Determination: This is the dark side that will incorporate “position direct targeting” if we incorporate it. If not incorporated, this would probably just subtract from the cost of making an attack.
2. Force Rage: Will increase many of your attributes, such as speed and such, while decreasing the likelihood you have of blocking opponent’s attacks. When used with red sections of the forms, will be an incredible offensive power.
3. Force Alter Surroundings: Will allow you to throw inanimate objects at your opponents in an attempt to distract them. Be careful though, as the intelligent lightsider will push them, and they may come flying back at you…
4. Force Sense Future: If “position direct targeting” is incorporated, will somehow tip you off to the area that an opponent is targeting, so that you can be better prepared to block or execute a counterstroke.
5. Force Lightning: Do I really need to explain this?
IV. What I Would Like to do Down the Road
A. User Statistics. I’d really like to incorporate a system where every players stats will be kept on some master server, so that people would be able to build up their characters into monster creations that whup some major butt. Passwords or something for these characters would be necessary. May be too lofty to try, but it’d be really nice.
B. Server Admins. It would be so cool if people would watch the servers and reward those who fight honorably, while punishing those who do not, through addition/subtraction of redeemable points.
C. Full Time RPG Environment. HUGE maps of ENTIRE cities. Teamwork, Padawan/Master system. Etc. Fun stuff, all of it.

Anyway, that's what is in my head right now. Easier to do the basics of it, and more fun possibilities down the road.

bigDAN456
05-28-2002, 06:28 PM
would all of this be possible???

etherealsilk
05-28-2002, 06:30 PM
:eek: WOW
*looks around for raven*

Now where is that MP SDK so you can start figuring out how to do all that?

bigDAN456
05-28-2002, 06:31 PM
You should also make sabers with adjustible width and length.

Rajess MoDuron
05-28-2002, 06:34 PM
Now THAT may prove to be more difficult.

I would LOVE to get Raven's help on this, but getting them to look at Mod Ideas randomly seems to be a little difficult, as I know no-one within the organization. We at NRG would LOVE their help though, however they can give it.

Darth Darth
05-28-2002, 07:05 PM
Heh. Two double lightsabers. WTF was he smoking when he thought of that? Not only would you probably skewer yourself if you did that, but all lightsaber movements would be relatively slow, and very weak; an oponent would smash right through your defense. Not to mention the sabers would just keep hitting eachother.

Now, that stuff you are talking about sounds interesting, Rajess. However, I don't think you should remove any force powers, just nerf them, making them fit in with the style of the mod, so they are not a total substitute for saber skill. Also, wouldn't it be cool if there were a bunch of objects that you could use push, pull, or grip to toss at your enemies? Kind of like Vader did to Luke in ESB. I was just playing in the Nar Shaada cantina, and I thought it would be cool to toss beer bottles at people. Or, better yet, smash some beer bottles with force grip, then send a storm of glass shards flying at someone. :) Not that that last one would likely be doable, but it would be sweet. You could have tossable items situated around a map, maybe have them respawn after a while.

The lightsaber system with the numpad sounds neat, but extremely unwieldy. Considering that most players have their left hand all the way over on the WASD keys, it would take a split second to do, and require people to stop moving for a second or more. I still think that holding down the mouse button and dragging the mouse in a certain direction would be better, albeit harder to program.

Also, if this mod is going to be more about jedi vs sith saber combat, it would make more sense for it to be taking place during the sith war. After all, that is the only time that there were large numbers of force users fighting eith lightsabers, at least since the founding of the Republic. Speaking of which, anyone know if Lucas is planning to make any other movies after Episode 3? I know he had originaly planned to make 3 trilogies, with the last one being after RotJ, but he seems to have given up on that. It occurs to me that he could make movies about the Sith War a milenium or two before Ep 1, or even the founding of the Jedi and the Republic a couple milenia before that. Now that would be sweet, becase almost nothing is known about those times.

Darth Darth
05-28-2002, 07:07 PM
Heh. Two double lightsabers. WTF was he smoking when he thought of that? Not only would you probably skewer yourself if you did that, but all lightsaber movements would be relatively slow, and very weak; an oponent would smash right through your defense. Not to mention the sabers would just keep hitting eachother. Now, adjustable length lighstabers might be an interesting idea, as it is actually plausible and useful. Just have a little servo in the saber that adjust the distance between the laser emiter and the focusing crystal. As for width, no way. There is no actual use for different widths, and I can't see how they would do this, from a mechanical standpoint.

Now, that stuff you are talking about sounds interesting, Rajess. However, I don't think you should remove any force powers, just nerf them, making them fit in with the style of the mod, so they are not a total substitute for saber skill. Also, wouldn't it be cool if there were a bunch of objects that you could use push, pull, or grip to toss at your enemies? Kind of like Vader did to Luke in ESB. I was just playing in the Nar Shaada cantina, and I thought it would be cool to toss beer bottles at people. Or, better yet, smash some beer bottles with force grip, then send a storm of glass shards flying at someone. :) Not that that last one would likely be doable, but it would be sweet. You could have tossable items situated around a map, maybe have them respawn after a while.

The lightsaber system with the numpad sounds neat, but extremely unwieldy. Considering that most players have their left hand all the way over on the WASD keys, it would take a split second to do, and require people to stop moving for a second or more. I still think that holding down the mouse button and dragging the mouse in a certain direction would be better, albeit harder to program.

Also, if this mod is going to be more about jedi vs sith saber combat, it would make more sense for it to be taking place during the sith war. After all, that is the only time that there were large numbers of force users fighting eith lightsabers, at least since the founding of the Republic. Speaking of which, anyone know if Lucas is planning to make any other movies after Episode 3? I know he had originaly planned to make 3 trilogies, with the last one being after RotJ, but he seems to have given up on that. It occurs to me that he could make movies about the Sith War a milenium or two before Ep 1, or even the founding of the Jedi and the Republic a couple milenia before that. Now that would be sweet, becase almost nothing is known about those times.

Rajess MoDuron
05-28-2002, 07:15 PM
1) The problem with an adjustable saber blade is that it would require us to throw yet another thing into an already complicated mod. It's something to keep on the brain, but don't be suprised if for the sake of simplicity we don't put it in.

2) The substitution would only really happen if the numpad thing was found to be fun and easy. BUT, drain, protection, pull, persuasion, grip, and the other ones you couldn't really do on a force user effectively in the movies shall be removed.

3) We'd try to find some way around this, trust me.

4) Not necessarily Jedi V. Sith, but more like Jedi v. Dark Jedi or whatever. I think it's an idea that can be ported to any Jedi era.

Rajess MoDuron
05-28-2002, 07:17 PM
Really, I just want tactical saber fighting, with people trying to outsmart, not out-cheap, their opponent.

The Truthful Liar
05-28-2002, 08:04 PM
Well I've been fully outsmarted myself :D I don't see much of whatelse I could add here as of now :p

[Edit: Seth, get online for crying out loud]

Rajess MoDuron
05-29-2002, 10:57 AM
bump

Darth Darth
05-30-2002, 01:12 AM
Well, the automatic repostes worry me. I don't wanna see people win by out-lucking, out-turtling, or out-waiting their oponents, and killing them with an automatic attack while just standing still. Incidentaly, that is one reason manual blocking would help; you wouldnt be able to stand still and just guarantee that your defense works. How about making an enemy stumble or some other visual cue (nothing as obvious as having a flashing riposte icon above peoples heads) and making players manually press a riposte button?

As for the stances, if all the stances work for all the weapons, than what is the difference? Will the ideas behind a stance, IE the advantages and disadvantages, be the same, but with different moves for the different sabers, or will they all be just the same moves, with the differences merely being in the percentage chances of blocking, riposteing, and stuff? Cause that would suck. Each saber, be it single, double, or akimbo, should have radically different fighting styles.

Now, as for force powers, I see no need to remove any of the base ones. Just make them work a bit differently to fit in with the mod. I personaly think lightning would be a great power, if you made it a stunning weapon instead of just a force-powered gun like it is now. You shoot off a lightning bolt to stun an enemy for a couple seconds, then you attack with the saber. Drain would be good too, if it healed less health, or maybe healed force stamina instead of health.

Now, about the force stamina... how fast will it recharge, and what all will affect it's recharge rate? You seem to indicate that it recharges at 1/second, is that a flat rate, or does it change depending on what you are doing? And does it recharge while you are doing something that uses stamina? Also, will this replace the current force bar, or be seperate from the force bar? I think it would be cool to have it seperate. The stamina bar helps you run, attack, block, and jump, while the force bar is used to use all your force powers except jump. Maybe have the force stamina bar affect the recharge rate of the force power bar. And, blocking should not be too heavily based on how much stamina you have. That is, you should be able to hit an enemy if you execute a really good attack. You seemed to indicate at one point that stamina would act as a kind of armor, taking damage instead of your health. This would be lame, it would be just like the force fields we have now. I think it would be better if it affected blocking rates, but was not absolute. This way you could kill an enemy by wearing down their stamina then finishing the, OR by using an elaborate combo/flanking attack to get past their defense and kill them while their stamina is still high. Fights shouldnt be a battle of stamina attrition.

Now, lastly: What about having player's health really slowly recharge based on how much stamina they have? Like, 1 health point every 100/stamina seconds. IE, 100 stamina= 1 health/second, 50 stamina= 1 health/2 seconds. This would not be much, but it would simulate the passive regenerative boost that Jedi have, plus it would give dark Jedi some form of health recharge, albeit a slow one.

Rajess MoDuron
05-30-2002, 02:22 PM
The automatic riposte would not actually do much damage, it would simply break the flow of your opponent's offensive and give you the chance to come in with a combo in the middle of theirs, like a combo breaker if you will. A stronger parry that doesn't lag you at all, sorta.

I don't understand what you are asking about the stances. All of the forms will have unique moves, if that is your question...I really have no idea what you are saying/asking.

Okay, drain is gone, and I'll explain why. Once you get past stamina, there is no such thing as health. You basically have one point of health, and stamina is the shield. Drain is gone. It has no basis at all in the movies. Lightning remains, exactly as you suggested almost, like a sort of stunning power like when used against Anakin in Ep 2.

Recharge rate will depend on factors to be decided later. Maybe level, maybe how high your max stamina is (higher, better), maybe a lot of things. The thing is though about separating them is that with a Jedi, they are tied together and are inseperable. It would also add another level of complicatedness to gameplay, and while we want it to be intricate and fun, we don't want it to be so intricate that you need to focus on 30 things in order to have a fighting chance. Maybe 20, but not 30 :).

Once again on your last point you misunderstand. People no longer take physical damage from falling, it hits the stamina. The only thing that can hurt you physically can only hurt you once, and then you're dead.

And all Jedi would have some form of recharge, through stamina recharge.

Darth Darth, I LOVE your input, you seem to be genuinely interested, and have some great ideas!

Keep it coming!

Epimetheus
05-30-2002, 03:31 PM
I know this is very unlikely, but I would like to see dismemberment not always result in death. Luke lost his hand, Anakin lost his arm, Maul was alive long enough to give Obi Wan a cock-eyed look after being cut in half, etc. Physical handicaps.

Yeah, I know it would be hard to implement and might be stupid and pointless, but it would be close to the movies... :sweating:

Rajess MoDuron
05-30-2002, 04:06 PM
Yeah, it would be really cool to do that. Locational damage would be tight, but hard to make realistic given the rules that have been set already.

Another thing is that none of those people continued to fight after their loss of limb. Effectively, they still lost. Something that we might include as a mandatory is dismemberment. like cs_dismember 2 being automatically on or something.

Epimetheus
05-30-2002, 05:59 PM
Another interesting, albeit obscure, thing that would be interesting and probably highly unlikely, would be Obi-Wan and Yoda "becoming one with the force" and just disappearing upon death instead of dismemberment of just death. Though it really is impractical, as Kenobi did it on purpose and Yoda died of old age...

Rajess MoDuron
05-30-2002, 06:05 PM
It would be cool to integrate that sort of thing somehow...I don't mean code-wise, but why would we do it? For what purpose? Come up with a purpose for that, and we'll think about it. It shouldn't be that difficult to do SOMETHING like that.

Epimetheus
05-30-2002, 06:33 PM
Hmm... let's see. Obi Wan didn't have his saber on when he disappeared. Maybe that's exploitable? Maybe have a suicide function that freezes you in place and disables your lightsaber?

By the way, I think kick should be removed in its current form. The only time we see a Jedi kicking is when Maul hits Obi Wan. And he just does a swift thrust-kick, if I recall correctly. Never leaves the ground.

Rajess MoDuron
05-30-2002, 06:41 PM
If not taken out, weakened severely, both with how far it kicks and how much it does.

It takes 12 life now. no way a kick takes 12 when a lightsaber takes 20-99. No way.

The Truthful Liar
05-30-2002, 09:54 PM
I think that kick should hold as a seperate key or function. Also by creating a new kick animation instead of having to jump. I'd say 2 types of jump, one flip kick and another straight out kick.

Bleh I'm tired, will fill in more.

Cheers ;)

Ko'or Oragahn
05-30-2002, 10:12 PM
By the way, I think kick should be removed in its current form. The only time we see a Jedi kicking is when Maul hits Obi Wan. And he just does a swift thrust-kick, if I recall correctly. Never leaves the ground.

Well, I remember the aerial two-feeted tackle that Obi-Wan executed against Jango Fett. ;)

Rajess MoDuron
05-31-2002, 10:41 AM
You would be correct, but the question here is "would he have attempted as risky a move against a fellow jedi?".

And Luke kicks Vader too, a sidekick to knock him down stairs. It will be included, the only question is in what way.

The Truthful Liar
05-31-2002, 11:28 AM
Yes I agree it will be a very tricky manuever to use... must have presise timing and good aim to use.. maybe just auto-aim the kick instead. And what to speak about getting it to work in-game, bleh the animations would be risky to work on since... well the model requires to "bend" in a slightly abnormal way to perform the move, mmm... I see many bugs ahead ;)

Rajess MoDuron
05-31-2002, 11:32 AM
Bugs=FUN!!

:-D

Ko'or Oragahn
05-31-2002, 01:17 PM
Rajess, does the NRG team has a site ?

Rajess MoDuron
05-31-2002, 01:25 PM
Yes it does, but it's a WIP. I'll leave whether to post it or not up to Legion.

Darth Darth
05-31-2002, 03:56 PM
I think that tackle would be suicide even against a non-jedi who had a lightsaber. Get his legs sliced off, or the target could just hold the saber out and let Obi-Wan impale himself on it. Now, having limbs chopped off in battle seems unfeasible. That would mean that you would have to make several damaged player models for every basic player model, with people changing models in mid-game when it happens. I know you can chop limbs off in single player, but I think you would need an entirely different model to chop a limb off without dying. Also, you would have to make new stances and attacks for one-handed players. Plus, in Rajess's system, no one gets wounded, either a hit takes away only stamina, or you get killed.

Now, I think a stunt button would be neat. You hit the button in combination with jump, duck, or directional buttons to do one of several new kicks, flips, dives, etc. There is simply a limit to how many different combinations of button presses you can have; if you want to add much more stuff, you need another button.

Now, Rajess, I was wondering: How many people besides yourself do you have on this project? Do you have anyone yet? And are you actually working on the project yet, or waiting for the SDK?

Rajess MoDuron
05-31-2002, 04:33 PM
Right now we have no programmers or scripters other than myself, unfortunately. We have been scouring the Quakeworld forums for possible talent, but as this is not for an ID game, we cannot post there.

My talents are not enough to do this by myself, I'm an idea guy with mild implementation skills.

We are waiting for the SDK (full) to come out before we do any real editing. I've mostly been seeing what other people have done with animation mods and such, and seeing how they did it and what they changed, looking for THE KEY.

We have all of the personell necessary to do a model pack and level pack for the mod, but again, only myself on programming as far as I know.

Anyone who wants to help and can submit an example of their work, contact me and I will contact Legion, unless he wants to put his email here too (hint hint).

chexmaniac@hotmail.com

Now, a stunt button would be an excellent idea Darth. I really cannot stress enough how much I like your input.

Thank you again.

RichDiesal
05-31-2002, 04:50 PM
I would hafta say that any sort of kick, flying leap, tackle or otherwise was never meant to cause hurt/damage in any of the films but instead to throw their opponent off-guard...

I mean really, when you're sword fighting, who the hell EXPECTS to get a swift kick straight to their midsection? If timed REALLY well it could be used to gain an advantage...

My suggestion would be to allow kicking/stunts to knock the other player down but only to give an EXTREMELY narrow window of opportunity in a very specific circumstance (i.e. only for a quarter-second window when your opponent is doing a particularly stong attack).

Thus, most of the time it would be a suicide move, but if you just so happened to pull it off at the last second when you were about to die and then sliced your opponent open while he was on the ground, that would make for incredible fights.

Remember, saber battles are not all about wagering saber tactics, they are also simple battles of intelligence on a rudimentary level. I can see a battle where one player totally dominates the other but because of his arrogance in using totally open attacks, he leaves himself wide open to a swift kick to the stomach and gets himself sliced open.

Rajess MoDuron
05-31-2002, 05:10 PM
Which is why I am tossing around the idea of another statistic.

BALANCE.

If you guys like that idea I will tell you how it would be implemented.

Basically, don't over-extend yourself, or you will die.

kenad
05-31-2002, 05:14 PM
How about kicking as a riposte? It could be like force pushing someone from a lock.... are locks still in this mod?
It took me ages to read everything, so i have forgotten a few ideas. DAMN! :evil3:
:confused:
:o
:eek:
Oh, yeah, how about, instead of throwing (which is really rare), the alternate 'attack' be a block, and if you time it just right you riposte. It could be much more tactical if you have to use the block yourself then launch with massif combos of attack.

:biggs:

Dentalplan
05-31-2002, 05:28 PM
As regards the RPG elements, I have a suggestion. Would it be possible to implement some sort of padawan/apprentice system. A sufficiently powerful jedi could take a new weak jedi under their wing, and would share kill points until the apprentice reaches a more powerful level. The two would act as a team, with the point sharing only applying if they are sufficiently close to each other (perhaps duel range).

Even better, make taking an apprentice/padawan compulsory for achieving a certain level in the force. I have heard (not sure if this is true) that for one to become a Jedi Master one must take on and train a padawan. This would mean good players would have to help weaker ones. It might also bring some civility to proceedings (who wants to train/ be trained by an obnoxious a-hole).

Obviously there might be a problem if you had to have the same Padawan each time. It could be that who have a padawan for a game. Alternatively you could say to hell with it, and make a long term padawan a proper requirement. It would create an interesting social dynamic within the community, that is for sure.

Epimetheus
05-31-2002, 05:35 PM
How about if you're using a male model and you get kicked in the groin, you get stunned and keel over?
:angel:

Dentalplan
05-31-2002, 05:38 PM
Oh, and in terms of the RPG thing, what will the effects of dying be? Will it not matter, or will their be penalties? Would you go so far as to say that they have to start from scratch? Or perhaps dying will give minus one point.... but this would have problems (unless killing someone gave more than one point.)

Rajess MoDuron
05-31-2002, 06:08 PM
I love the padawan master idea, it was one I had thought about, but didn't really know how to realistically implement it. That is a great idea.

And I think maybe a point deduction of some sort, or a minor permanent reduction of Max stamina could work for deaths, or whatever.

Epimetheus
05-31-2002, 10:22 PM
Scripting tools are out now... Yay.

The Truthful Liar
06-01-2002, 02:35 AM
Yesssss.... awsome, I have absolutely no idea what or how to use them... but still... cooooooooool :cool:

I like that RPG idea to an extent btw :)

OOh got another idea spurt, I'll write it down later

Cheers ;)

Darth Darth
06-02-2002, 01:40 AM
Well, lets not take the RPG thing too far. Keep in mind this is not an MMORPG, it is a FPS, with games only lasting an hour or less. Doing all that stuff in one game would be too much of a hassle. Having it carry over from game to game would require a permanent stats server, a huge amount of stat coding; more resources than an independent modder has. I think it would just be overly complicated.

I totally agree with you on the kicks Diesal, they should never be fatal. Just throw people off balance, and take away some force stamina, since they would knock the wind out of someone, make them dizzy, or otherwise just ruin their concentration. But we dont want them to be a substitute for saber swinging. I have seen people win fights by just kicking an oponent several times, and that is just lame.

Thanks for the consideration Raj, I am trying to get input on my ideas because I want to be a game developer someday. Unfortunatly, I am just finishing my last year of high school, and can't program or anything. Soon as I take some college classes on that I wanna work on a mod, maybe in 2 or 3 years.

Anyway, how would you handle damage from weapons other than the lightsaber using the stamina system? Perhaps you are thinking of making this mod for saber only games, but I would prefer that you not. Sabers only is only fun in duel and deathmatch games, CTF and other gametypes lose their depth when you take out the guns. Anyway, I was thinking that the energy cost of force push and pull should change a bit based on what you are pushing or pulling, so it costs less to push a rocket or pair of flak grenades, then to push a person. This way, some lammae couldnt just overwhelm you with a load of grenades until you cant push anymore, and you die.


As far as the team goes, dont sweat it. I doubt you will get any coders before the SDK comes out. I know if I were one, I would want to see how good it is before I commit to a mod.

RichDiesal
06-02-2002, 03:43 AM
SDK is out now, isn't it? I thought they just released it... or is that something else? :)

Dentalplan
06-02-2002, 09:40 AM
Darth Darth, if guns are to be included there needs to be substanial modification. I don't see how the rocket launcher or the repeaters primary and secondary fire are viable. Anything that is impossible to block cannot be implemented (unless you give people auto-push?) Sabering has changed so much there has to be a balance. No force use when holding a gun?

Anyway, I think what is being sought after is a realistic simulation of what a jedi and sith are about. Letting Jedi or Sith carry guns will destroy this.

As for the RPG system, this does all seem very ambitious. I would suggest that it be a long term goal, and even when it is released it should be an optional game mode.

For the normal game, might I suggest a counter-strike style system, where people earn points through kills in the game fairly rapidly, but lose them if killed. The more powerful the opponent you defeat, the more points you get (may I suggest a fraction of their force points.) The padawaning system could perhaps be implemented using some of the mechanics for Duel (you press a button to offer padawanship ( :D ) and they press a button to accept), with both sides having to maintain certain distance or this is lost. Anyone below , let says, Knight level (whatever that is deciding to be) can be padawaned, but this ceases once they reach knight level, from which point they can take a padawan.

Points deployed into force powers and saber skill should be irretractable (bar death) but should instantly take effect (obviously respawning is not an option).

What else... powers should be available to all at first, until knight level perhaps. Could a light/dark meter be implemented? Perhaps light powers are augmented by a strong light leaning and vica versa with dark side powers?

What makes you light/dark side? This is looking complicated. Basing it on who you kill (go dark for killing jedi for example) is impracticle because you might kill them by accident, or they may have attacked you first. Use of powers perhaps?

This is all very complicated in itself. What I would recommend you do is ignore all the above for now, and work of getting the basic system (with predefined sets of force points ala normal JK2) up and running. Perfect that, release it. Then start work on the more complex systems you are planning to implement, and release them in further modifications/updates. I still want to be around when this sees the light of day!

The Truthful Liar
06-02-2002, 01:45 PM
I couldn't be bothered to read that all sorry --^ :p

I'm speaking for Seth here. There will be other weapons than the Saber. Guns (not the only weapon including saber though ;)) would be found in the Star Wars Universe ONLY.

Seth can improve on what I've just said, as I remember there was a "Star Wars ONLY guns/weapons" TC for the original Jk1, I'll see if I can get in touch with those guys again.

Cheers ;)

Ko'or Oragahn
06-02-2002, 08:11 PM
Damn, I think I should post now what I wrote on a piece of paper, otherwise I'll have to catch up too much things.

Beware, it is a bit a mess !

Here's my input.

Big list it is.



The Force is a constant. It's only the user who gains or losses control of it. Even calling it Force Control would be better.

My point of view is that it's more a matter of concentration and control than anything else. For example, think of the way the powers are used in Shadowrunner.

And well, isn't that what Yoda says to Luke ? "Concentrate ! Concentrate !"...

Lack of concentration results in a lack of control.

You probably noticed Qui-Gon Jinn meditating in front of Maul after being separated by the energy walls in the Naboo reactor. He was calming down, concentrating, getting closer the Force and increasing his contact with it.

I think a player should have a Force Control bar or pool that would be used both for Force AND lightsabre fighting (and or even for using a gun), mostly meaning that, except for the Masters, the average guy will rarely use most of their powers at their full extent at the same time.

There will be a choice. Tactics, yes, tactis.

Look, it's only when Obi-Wan and Maul get a "pause" with their blades blocked that the Sith managed to send the Jedi back by using some sort of Force Explosion or something that produced a dilation noise (without saying that Obi-Wan easied up Maul's task by dwelving into the dark side - which is a parameter I think must be taken in count - Jedi don't like darkness and Sith don't like light).

I think a Force Control in-game-active attribute is a must.
It's not only a matter of name. It is important and the first step to get a mod more tuned with the reality of the SW universe.
The higher your Force Control, the better you'll fight with your weapon, the better you'll dodge/parry/riposte, the more you'll avoid injuries and lessen the importance of your wounds, and finally, the stronger and more efficient will be your powers.

It is closely related with Stamina.

For example, a tired player won't have the same ease to concentrate, move, fight and more than an oponent who's pretty sharp and strong.

The higher the rank of your character, the higher his Force Control Maximum (FCM) will be. If the game is meant to be more RPG than what I thought, it could be your level of FCM which could determine your rank. Seems logic in fact... yep.

So a Padawan will have near as no match against a Master, except if this Master makes several mistakes and/or get to cocky.

Despite its name, Force Control won't be a Power but an ATTRIBUTE.

Another point, and certainly one of the most important ones :

Force Control wil be used for both Force Powers and LSD (ok ! ok ! easy guys... it's just LightSabre Dueling). Thus meaning that most of the times, you'll have to make a choice between fighting and using Force Powers.

Say goodbye to Force spam and these endless mix of lightsabre attacks always followed by deadly lightnings. The goal is to stick to the movies (which showed by btw that the Jedi are far more reluctant to use the Force directly on their oponent than the Sith).

To recover your Force Control, you'll just have to act the same way as you would had to to recover your Stamina.

Jedi and Sith are always linked to the Force. So the true point is HOW they are linked to it.

What makes a Force user better than he other one is how he is tuned to the Force, so in fact the fights should mostly be an illustration of the inner mental struggle occuring at the time. This is btw really close to what happens in martial arts, where mind is even more important than brutal strenght.

Mind -> Knowledge and Concentration.

So as I said, Force Control would be used for both LSD (LightSabre Dueling) and Force powers.

The way to determine if you're succesfull or not in casting any Force power/attacking/blocking and other stuff depending on your Force Control would be quite similar to the way some light RPG systems work, but far less complex.
In fact, it will only be a matter of real short calculations made by the server (or even the clients in order to reduce the lag).

Here's how it would work :

To determine if your power is succesful or not, there will be a comparison runned between some of the attributes of the two players, the attacker and the attacked(s). Btw this sytem could probably be also used for the LSD, plus minor other vars adding spice to the affair.

Anyway, here's how it could work.

First, let's say that there are 5 levels per power or a LSD aptitude (attack, block, riposte, etc.).

You'll be given a certain amount of points obtained by the level number of the aptitude you're using, multiplied by ten.

No Lvel : 0
Level 1 : 10
Level 2 : 20
Level 3 : 30
Level 4 : 40
Level 5 : 50

Ok. This was the first step.

Then you have the different rates for the Force Control aptitude :

Let's say that for a Jedi Padawan named Garik, his FCM will be fixed at 60, and for an Ubber Jedi Master like Yoda, it will be more like 100. This si to simplify.

Note : At the moment, I don't know if the Force Control Maximum should be fixed by looking at the rank of a person, or if the rank of a person should be given in regards of his FCM, this last option meaning that there would be something like a possibility to gain experience, and once you reach a certain amount of FCM points, you'd go up in the hierarchy.

This is just an example after all. A lot of things need to be fixed.

So here we go :

Garik tries a Force Push on Yoda.

Garik had a level 2 in Force Push, which gives him +20 points. Garik's rate of Force Control was 20/60 WHEN HE USED HIS POWER.

Yoda has a level 5 in Force Push, which corresponds to +100 points (the maximum available), and had a Force Control of 90/100 when Garik used his Force Push.

The calculation will be the following one :

Garik's level in Force Push x 10 + his FC points Vs. Yoda's level in Force Push x 10 + his FC points

So here we go :

Garik : 10 + 20 = 30
Yoda : 50 + 90 = 140

Garik's attempts fails.

But both Garik and Yoda taped into their FC.

Note that to counter a Force Push, the defender will no longer need to move his hand.

If a player has no points in a power needed to counter another power, then he will only rely on his concentration.

Every Force power will have an assigned default counter power, usually the same one, but not always. But this function could be disabled as well if you'd like to.

For each power, you'll have a menu in which you'll have to choose which power will be used as the default counter power.

Just imagine that you're ajusting your power levels in the menu.
You will have a submenu called "Your Powers", and another menu called "Counter Powers". Click "Counter Powers" menu.

Then appears the list of ALL the powers.

Click on a Force Power and a small window will popup, in which you'll see a list of all the powers that can be automatically used to counter from the ones YOU can use. You can choose only one.

We may need to have a function to enable/disable the auto-counter power function in game.

All these counter powers will be used automatically, without being activated. They won't cost any Force Control unless used to counter another Power. Only then they will tap into the FC pool.

Ok, this means that some powers are only reactive and other that can be activated in game.

Basically, to be able to counter a power, will you must NOT be attacking at the same time. In fact, the more defensive you are, the more chances you'll have to counter a power.

Some of the powers used to counter could be used to strike back at your oponent.

The best example I can think of is Yoda absorbing Dooku's Sith lightnings. Then Yoda decides to send one of the lightning bolt back to Dooku, who dodged it, but he also could have took it right in his face if he hadn't been concentrated enough. Well, obviously, Dooku was powerful. Not all powerful, but enough to resist before escaping and avoiding being hit by his own back flash.

You'll need to be at least at 50% of your FCM to cast a Force Power. Well, there may be something like that, and probably along the factor which determines how strong/efficient is your power in regards to your actual FC rate. I don't know... ideas...

When killed, players should release ALL the weapons they carried.

I think there should five states of alignment in regards to the Force (refers to pre-ANH Jedi Order, because we know that things changed after that) :

Jedi
Jedi who generally follow the strict dogma of the Cosmic Force .

Jedi Maverick
A different philosophy, more connected with instinct. They follow concepts such as the Living Force.

Grey Jedi
Jedi who try to get reach perfect balance between the two sides of the Force.

Fallen Jedi
Can be a Sith but will never be as dark as a pure Sith. There's still somewhere a place for light in them, but clearly droawn into an abyssal void of darkness. A class which includes Dark Jedi (for eg. Yun from Jedi Knight).

Sith
Pure Sith teached in the Sith arts from the beginning. Well of course, this is also a cathegory which could include the darkest Dark Jedi known in the universe such as Jerec, Desann, Boc, Maw, Sariss, Gorc, Pic and High Inquisitor Treymane.

Somehow, in regards of your status, some powers from one side or the other may be more expensive.

For example; a Grey Jedi will have to spend less points to get new levels in a particular light side power than a Sith.

Pure Jedi or pure Sith won't have access to the powers of the oposite sides until their status changes, but they will be the only ones to be able to reach the higher levels of their respective Force side.

A Grey Jedi will only have access the third level of light or dark side powers.

A Maverick Jedi will only have access to the fourth level of light side powers and will only be able to get to the first level of dark side powers. Btw, for a Maverick Jedi, dark side powers will cost much more than if he was a Grey Jedi or a Dark Jedi.

I'm thinking of a method to have the powers no more classified by dark, neutral or light rank. Well, they will still be good or bad powers, but each of them will have a light or dark factor.

For example, think of Sith Lightnings. This is the one of ultimate dark side powers.

So it will be affected by a factor of 5 dark stars.

A Force power would only have stars from a side or another, never from both.

So the more dark stars a power will have, the more expensive it will be for a player attuned to the light side.

Btw, the more dark stars a power will have, the fewer levels a Jedi will have access to.

If we use the same example as above, it will mean that a Jedi has access to none of the levels of Force Lightning, the same as a Sith has no access to Force Absorb.

But there are powers that are less dark or light which are more accessible.

Another example, only a Maverick Jedi would have access to the only first level of Force Lightning.

To sum up, the more darker a power will be, the less affordable it will be for a Jedi.

Jedi don't have acess to absolute dark as Sith don't have access to absolute light.

Oh well, I'm bit tired, I hope you see the point here. :)

As it worked in JK, I think the falling scream shouldn't ONLY depend of an entity but ALSO on how high you're falling from, unless you're slowing your fall.

The "getting up" animation shouldn't stop a player from falling when executed.

Remove the useless respawn when a player has felt into the void.

Let the music play in loop instead of restarting it when a duel is finished (when fraglimit is put at 1).

Remove the dismembered members' bumping.

When a corpse is sliced in two or the haed cut off, remove any animation from the dead player.

Add the slowmotion function for duel.

I agree with Rajess' pov about the Force powers, except that I don't like to see them be nerfed. In fact, they need to be better leveled and even some of them made even more powerfull to fit with the canon material (for eg, Sidious lightings were able to kick Luke on the ground and they were so painfull that a Jedi as Luke was paralized by his sufferings (this happens in SP - a thing we never see in MP, as the padawans aren't really bothered by the masters' powers, which seems odd).

I think you should call Maul's saber a lightstaff. Everyone will understand what you mean.
It has two blades, which make it look like a staff, so... lightstaff. :D
Note that Maul's lightstaff has a special ignition sound, slightly different from the other usual lightsabre.

Yep Maul is a bad ass, but he comes fom Iridonia. It's your avatar character, Eeth Koth, who comes from Nar Shaddaa. ;)

The less moves you do in battle will provide you more succesfull hits and parries. If you keep running and jumping all the way, your Stamina and Force Control will decrease quickier than if you were walking and fighting.
This is a way to get guys fight instead of one trying to hide and the other one running behind him.

The Force feeds the knights. And in fact, it's the one who has the most Stamina and almost who is the most concentrated who will usually win, except surprise attacks, luck and other things like that.

Timing and intelligence will also play big parts in the duels. I completely agree with what said Richdiesal about the kicks and punches. They shouldn't kill.

The Force powers will be reajusted, and most of them increased by the releveling process.

C. Full Time RPG Environment. HUGE maps of ENTIRE cities. Teamwork, Padawan/Master system. Etc. Fun stuff, all of it.


I don't think that should be a priority. If the Padawa/Paster system sounds interesting and could be done without major problem, it won't be the case of the rest.
The focuse should be orientated on the gameplay aspect before anything else. I agree with the system of ladders and stats stored into servers. Would be great. But now having huges cities and things like, I'd better wait for Galaxies if you don't mind.
The mod will borrow from RPG systems, but shouldn't be totally converted into a RPG game.

If there's some sort of progress and experience included with the ladder system, I think we could consider the possibility of drifting towards a side or the other.

Like if you started as a young Dark Jedi but used a lot of light powers as long as the dark ones, you would become a grey Jedi, and even maybe a Maverick Jedi if you completely avoid using the dark side powers.

I agree that there must be a Stamina and a Stamina Maximum. A player would recover his Stamina by calming down, not moving and staying quiet, the same way he would do to recover his FC. To sum up, having a break.

A bad injury would lower your SM. SM couldn't be recovered without the use of the exclusive to the Light Side Force Heal (quick) or with Force Meditation (slow but accesible to both light and dak siders).

The only ways to get to a null Stamina are the followings ones :

- Wounding by weapon (LS generally).
- Wounding by Force Power.
- Wounding by fall.

There will be three major levels of Stamina.
The lower one will be death, the one just above will be a state of temporary unconsciousness, and the next one will be the upper part of the Stamina pool.

Btw, your total of Stamina points should determine how fast you move, get up, fight, concentrate (Force Control) and recover your Stamina points.

Which means for example that if a violent hit lower your Stamina to near as unconsciousness state, you will take more time to get back into battle thatn if you were only lightly punched out.

Oh well, this is a heavy problem to solve.





















Plus there a BIG BIG input abour Force powers that I'll post, but I need to enhance it in order to have it readable. :)

Epimetheus
06-02-2002, 11:24 PM
I personally think if there are any weapons whatsoever, many people (including myself) won't even touch it. Besides, when was the last time you saw a Jedi use anything but a lightsaber? (Luke in ANH doesn't count, as he was just a wenie that happened to have a lightsaber)

Darth Darth
06-03-2002, 01:05 AM
Oraghan, that seems a bit overly complicated, and I think too many RPG elements would just not work. Some of the stuff you guys are saying makes it sound like you want to make a real-time MMORPG with lightsaber combat, which just couldn't be done. Keep in mind that this is an action game, with games lasting an hour or less, and being completely independent of eachother. Plus, you can't really make people's actions in a game change their light/dark side rating. I mean, it's just a fight, you kill your enemies, no moral decisions or anything to be made. Also, I think some of your calculations in that example were off.

As for guns, I just want you guys to keep in mind that making this a sabers only mod would take some of the depth out of ctf games, not to mention completely remove the Jedi Master gametype. Not that anyone plays that. If you are going to make this mod strictly about jedi vs jedi saber combat, you should make some new game types. I have always wished there was a team duel game type, in which 2 teams of jedi, in a sabers only game, face off, no respawns, and last team standing wins. Also, maybe have a custom duel gametype in which each map has a different fight setup. For instance, each map, in addition to determining the actual map that you fight in, also determines how many people fight, and what powers they have. A fight could be 1 on 1, 2 on 2, 2 on 1, or whatever, but not too many people, cause you dont want to have too few people. Like in duels, winner stays playing, people who die go back in line. And, rather than choosing your force powers, they are set up as part of the map. For instance, in one map, it would be Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul. Maul is a sith with a lightstaff, Qui-Gon is a Jedi with a saber and slightly less power than maul, and Obi-Wan is a jedi with a saber, and moderately less power than Qui-Gon. If Maul wins, 2 new players play as Obiwan and Quigon. If they win, then QuiGon becomes maul, and the guy playing obiwan becoms quigon, while one observer becomes Obiwan. However, if maul loses but kills one of them, the the one who died also goes back in line, even though his team won. This would be a neat game mode, because you could set up the entire fight, not just the setting, but also the teams and each players powers. You could re-enact scenes from the books or movies.

The Truthful Liar
06-03-2002, 04:11 AM
I repeat: Weapons other than the saber will be implemented. No arguments, not everyone might want to play nice jedi in this mod ;)

Currently I'm researching the SW universe Weapons used and choosing which are practical, still no luck in finding the team for Jk1 that were working on a Real Star Wars Weapons mod :(

Oraghan, I like a good number of your points but I'd have to agree with Darth Darth Darth... Darth.... Darth... blah :) that it's not meant to be overly-complicated, yet will involve a good deal of reflexes and focus while playing.

Cheers ;)

Mero Vilul
06-03-2002, 06:17 AM
...

The Truthful Liar
06-03-2002, 01:35 PM
Originally posted by Mero Vilul
...

Hey, that was really good input - keep it up! :thumbsup:










:rolleyes:

Dentalplan
06-03-2002, 02:06 PM
I quite liked Ko'or Oragahn suggestion for the 5 classes of jedi, reminds me of the disciple in JK1, and would also allow you to properly play as Kyle Katarn. It is rather complicated though, as said. Again, another long term goal perhaps?

As for guns, I wouldn't mind seeing them in. They should be weaker than the saber however - no flechette or rockets. That would spoil it. Also how do you intend to implement weapon damage without a health bar? Remember if you have a gun out and get shot you can't block.

Phr00t
06-03-2002, 02:34 PM
My suggestions:

1. Allow the ability to chose from all 7 stances but only wield 3 or 4 of them at a time. This way you could choose which styles suit you best.

2. MANUAL BLOCKING!!!. Replace saber throw (+altattack) with a new blocking system. Move your saber towards where the attack is coming from in a steady motion and it's a block. Move it in a quick jerk and it's a parry. Follow a parry up with a motion to the side and an attack for a counter, but make sure the counter direction is correct:

For example, if you parry an attack coming downwards by moving your saber upwards, the possible attacks from this would be downward or sideways.

Take for example a completely different game, Black and White. You could cast spells by moving your mouse in certain patterns; you could adopt that system here.

Rajess MoDuron
06-03-2002, 02:44 PM
Could, yes.

Many of these ideas are bossanova, I especially like the one that keeps gunners from using force, we'll probably include that.

Some of these ideas are definitely ones to be kept for later in production.

Ko'or Oragahn
06-03-2002, 02:57 PM
Yes, I agree that some points may be too much.

In fact, there are fuctions that would be used IF a ladder system was intended.

If not, there are still numerous ideas that would make the fight look closer to the movie duels.

Anyway, I think auto-counter power has to be put in, as the manual blocking (would remind me great fights with Street Fighter ;) ).

Well, anyway, it may look a bit overcomplicated, but most of the biggest mods that have been out are fairly more complicated than the original product they were based on.

I've done a bit of coding years before, helping me to se how to do this and that, but I couldn't help you now.

Sure, this mod would need to its members to spend a lot of time in it; but that's the same for all mods. It's quite rare when a really good mod didn't so much work.

Btw, it would be nice if there was a way to have a block stop an animation. I mean everytime that there's a calsh of blades, you see a big flash of light, too much smoke and sparkles, only to hide the fact that even if the bladed are said to be blocked, they go through as the animation isn't stopped.

In TPM, when Obi-Wan blocks Maul's attacks, you don't see the lightstaff blade going through Obi-wan without causing damage because the bladed clashed just a second before, no. You see the blade blocked, and the duelers have to try another move from their latest position/stand when their blades were blocked.

I know it is possible to pause an animation and forbid it to played to its end, but now, would it be possible to program a way to have attack animations depending on how the bladed were blocked ? I don't know...

Darth Darth
06-04-2002, 12:55 AM
Lol, good point about the animations. It's so hard to tell how much damage you have done when your blade goes thru the enemy whether or not you actually hit him. As for my name, Darth Darth Darth is going to be the even more evil name that I use in the next Jedi Knight game. The problem with manual block is the same problem that has prevented fighting games from being played over the net all along; lag. Lag doesn't seem to be a problem most of the time in JK2 tho. The thing is however, that simply pressing a block button would not really be any more tactical or realistic than autoblocks. What would really make it good would be to have players swing their own saber towards the enemy saber, not merely pressing a block button, but aiming the block in the right direction. However, this might be too hard, and is not feasible in the current system; yet another reason a mouse-dragging system would have been better.

Ko'or Oragahn
06-04-2002, 02:32 PM
The problem with the drag system is that it's not very precise.
Plus, we would have to avoid the head of the player moving while executing dragged mouse moves, otherwise I think that after three combos I'd be pretty sick. The attack button should then block the view ON the nearest enemy, activating btw the autolock function.

Rajess MoDuron
06-04-2002, 03:33 PM
If incorporated, you're right. Otherwise it would be too disorienting.

The Truthful Liar
06-04-2002, 03:40 PM
We had that joystick idea though, didn't we Seth? ;)

[Edit: And get online for crying out loud]

NameItSelf
06-04-2002, 04:10 PM
Ok this is just an idea but would it be possible to make light saber effects more realistic in the sence that if you were to slice through the waist of an enemy that they would actually split in two at the place where you sliced them? I think this would add a lot to the feeling of the game. I appologize if this is a ridiculous question.

Rajess MoDuron
06-04-2002, 04:31 PM
Yeah, we had the joystick idea, and that would be a great option to incorporate. Down the road. And if I get online there is this German dude who will irritate me with his horrendously broken english. Get AIM or ICQ.

I like the idea of bodies falling apart realistically and not completeing the animations they were doing before. Nothing looks more retarded than when you cut the hand off a guy, then cut his head off or waist off, and he continues to stare...at the hand.

The Truthful Liar
06-04-2002, 07:17 PM
-_-_-_-_-_*ANNOUNCEMENT!!*_-_-_-_-_-

- NRG will soon be opened to all who are interested and our .plans will be released to the public. So stand tight!! :D

Epimetheus
06-05-2002, 01:55 AM
Originally posted by AB_Legion
-_-_-_-_-_*ANNOUNCEMENT!!*_-_-_-_-_-

- NRG will soon be opened to all who are interested and our .plans will be released to the public. So stand tight!! :D

This pleases me. Can I sit tight instead of standing?

RichDiesal
06-05-2002, 03:08 AM
Can I sit loose? How about lie down?

Ko'or Oragahn
06-05-2002, 02:43 PM
Ok this is just an idea but would it be possible to make light saber effects more realistic in the sence that if you were to slice through the waist of an enemy that they would actually split in two at the place where you sliced them? I think this would add a lot to the feeling of the game. I appologize if this is a ridiculous question.

I wish Raven had used the SOF2 dismemberment system. It's very very pushed, and it would have enabled more precise cuts, even the possibility to just cut a piece of a head, or cut a guy in two from the top of the head to his balls. :D

To incorporate such a system to Jedi Outcast, there would be a need as near as complete of redoing all he models, plus heavy recoding. It would be quickier to make a Star Wars mod from SOF2 you know, but unfortunately, there's the license problem.

Hey ! You know what ? We may ask to Raven ot release a BIG partch, the biggest patch ever.

You know, I have only a 56K, but even this patch would be 100 Mo, I would download it just to have the SOF2 dismemberment system.

Wel, anyway, one of the most urgent bug they also have to correct by the way is the problem of blades going into the models without causing any damage. Seems like the game misses a collision test step.

Anyway, I'm still rewriting the Force Power text, it may come soon.
Its goal will be to tie both the movies and the EU, and certainly not stick to the rule imposed by the games.

Without spoilering, in the NJO, there are two GOOD Jedi who use lightning against the Vongs, so does Kyle in some kind of way.

Well, a lot of changes in perspective...

Rajess MoDuron
06-05-2002, 05:15 PM
I agree with you, how awesome would that be?

I'd really love it, personally speaking, if someone at Raven saw this post, took some of the ideas (or all of them) and gypped me by doing it first. It would be awesome, and by awesome I mean totally sweet.

But I guess we're going to have to team together on this one as a community. Once again, I put a call out there to programmers and scripters, we need your help!!

Join us!

Seth

(contact info...somewhere else in this thread...lol)

The Truthful Liar
06-07-2002, 07:09 AM
Alright, the site is scheduled to be up by tuesday - however I will not reveal the final hosting location as of yet, but I will show you this...

http://www.darklordofsith.net/theoutcast/nrg/images/newstyle-logo3.jpg

Cheers :cool:

[Edit: God I'm sleepy, anyhoo this was just a wrap up of about 30 min of work... not a final to be used in any case mind you ;)]

Picasso
06-07-2002, 12:04 PM
*cough* need skinner? ;) ICQ 109492237 MSN robin_kagstrom@hotmail.com give me a call if ya want me!

other then skinning.. i COULD do some ideas
:o

btw.. REALLY nice ideas, REEEEEAAAALLY nice!
well i'm off now.. be in touch!

Epimetheus
06-07-2002, 11:56 PM
Yeah.

Bump.

wisealma
06-08-2002, 02:23 PM
I have often wanted to see the force interact better with the environment. How many times have you been in a fight and you take a lot of damage, run to a door, and get killed from behind as you try to open it? How many times have you wanted to be able to throw things at poeple.

It would be great to be able to:

1. Open doors
2. Throw switches
3. Pick up weapons or push them to a team mate?
4. Break open walls (push?)
5. Throw objects
6. Pull a lightsaber from somone?
7. INVENT more force powers.
8. Use the force on the stationary guns and laser mines

Stuff like that. If we want a realistic feel to the game/mod, we need the force to be able to interact better with the environment. This would help the use of the force be even more strategic and promote its use for defense.

wisealma
06-08-2002, 02:29 PM
What about making the game kind of like Ultima online in the sense that each CHARACTER lives a certain life style and interacts with the universe in that regard. For example, there would be jedi's, bounty hunters, smugglers, rebels, imperialists, etc.

Bounty hunters would be paid to hunt down certain players (*player types?) and kill them and collect a bounty. Jedi's would be the defenders of (something/someone?) or they could be given assignments by the server to fulfill. Upon fulfilling them they get stronger in the force?
Smugglers woudl try to smuggle weapons and other things to other locations without getting cuaght.
There would be rebels or imperial police to hunt them down..

Anyway, you get the picture. There would be this universe where the player would get to pick their life style by the character he/she chooses. Somehow there would be a way to progress in that chosen destiny (jedis getting stronger in the force for example, and bounty hunters getting better at killing/hunting/finding skills). Also, players could interact to sabatoge other players missions and just make it realistic. This would be great for clans..

Whadda you guys think?

The Truthful Liar
06-08-2002, 02:39 PM
I like your first post, the second one is wayyyyyy too out there - it'd almost be impossible to implement.

Also "inventing force powers" is not based on the "realistic" so to speak way of a Jedi, you don't make up forces and you wont be able to iether. There will be set forces and yes they should be able to affect your surroundings more, also like force pull should be able to 'pull' guns or pickup-items off from the ground.

Cheers ;)

P.S. so what... no one likes my logo? :(

Epimetheus
06-08-2002, 03:04 PM
Your logo is lovely and real purty-like.

Ko'or Oragahn
06-08-2002, 04:05 PM
Wisealma, you might appreciate what I'll post here about Force Powers, as I share your opinions.

I also agree with AB_Legion, but there are some resources that could be used a bit more.

I think I will be able post it soon.

Darth Darth
06-09-2002, 09:01 PM
I absolutely agree with the force powers post; I would love to be able to use push pull and grip to move stuff around. However, there is no way that a FPS could be turned into an MMORPG, that would require modifications to the engine itself, not to mention a server infrastructure far larger than any non-profit modding group could hope to own.

The Truthful Liar
06-10-2002, 03:51 AM
Okay, I had to post this before I forgot:

You should be able to do a mini-wall walk on walls if you are already in mid-air by pressing the jump key. Also if you jump once near a wall and then hit the jump key again you should follow-through with the wall-walk animation.

Another cool option is if you fall you should be able to "slide down" the wall and kick off before landing. Maybe also 'dig' your saber into the wall so you can 'hang' there and position yourself before falling, preventing damage to yourself.

Cheers ;)

Rajess MoDuron
06-10-2002, 10:59 AM
Lightsaber pulling from opponents could be spammed, and would not be in following with the OT or PT.

The Truthful Liar
06-10-2002, 11:19 AM
What's "OT" and "PT"?? :confused: :evanpiel: :fett:

[Edit: And please change your avatar it makes me wanna hurl every time I see it!!]

Cheers :p

Rajess MoDuron
06-10-2002, 12:49 PM
Original Trilogy and Prequel Trilogy.

And ask nicely.

:)

The Truthful Liar
06-10-2002, 02:03 PM
oh








^------ my supreme contribution to mankind.

C'jais
06-10-2002, 02:26 PM
All this looks very, very good!

But do you realize that since health is partly force, then people might possibly retreat every moment to let their force recharge? After a person is hit, he might just retreat to "regenerate" his health.

Overall, a very ambitious idea and ultimately very cool, I really hope you guys get the new saber stance animations in place, that'd be awesome.

Rajess MoDuron
06-10-2002, 03:31 PM
Ah, but you see something that would be incorporated is people not being able to walk backwards as fast as forwards. And the entire time they are regenerating, so is their opponent. That tactic would hopefully die out fairly quickly. Also, if you are getting your tushy kicked, we hope to make it so obvious that no amount of running will save you.

Rajess MoDuron
06-10-2002, 03:57 PM
And also, running saps stamina. Walking is slow, and not an effective manner of retreat. Wouldn't happen all that often, and would be writing your own death warrant.

Rajess MoDuron
06-10-2002, 03:59 PM
FIVE PAGES BABY!! YEAH!

The Truthful Liar
06-10-2002, 06:16 PM
woohooo, now I won't be able to select particular page numbers!! :p :(

The Truthful Liar
06-10-2002, 06:19 PM
OMG WOW I'm a SITH NOW!!! w00t!! :D :D :D

Ko'or Oragahn
06-10-2002, 07:11 PM
Another cool option is if you fall you should be able to "slide down" the wall and kick off before landing. Maybe also 'dig' your saber into the wall so you can 'hang' there and position yourself before falling, preventing damage to yourself.


Yep, make a hole and then plug your hand into. But wouldn't it be a bit difficult to code that ? On how could you do that while falling ?

Ah, but you see something that would be incorporated is people not being able to walk backwards as fast as forwards. And the entire time they are regenerating, so is their opponent. That tactic would hopefully die out fairly quickly. Also, if you are getting your tushy kicked, we hope to make it so obvious that no amount of running will save you.


I noticed that with the latest patch, bots go slower when they run backwards.

Anyway, I concur that to recharge yourself in Stamina, you should simply pause and have a break, meaning that in the heat of a fight, you won't have such oportunities, and once you started to fight against your oponent, it will be quite useless to try to run away if you're getting weak, cause your oponent will run faster and still be stronger than you.

And also, running saps stamina. Walking is slow, and not an effective manner of retreat. Wouldn't happen all that often, and would be writing your own death warrant.

Agreed. All this would force players to finish a fight... except if a wall of energy pops out between them. ;)

C'jais
06-10-2002, 08:46 PM
Sounds good!

I think I was merely skipping the answers on the last few pages, got a little tired of reading...

Excellent idea! But how about simply stopping the recharge of force if you're running? That way, people would have to find a safe spot for healing/recharging or resort to walking. Maybe running draining force is a bit overkill.... It might result in some weird fights.

Ko'or Oragahn
06-10-2002, 09:18 PM
If I'm not mistaken, Seth and his mates intend to not use a Force Pool as it actually is and also remove Force Drain.
I tend to agree with the Force Drain removal, but I think it should be reimplaced by powers which would lessen your Force Control.

Epimetheus
06-11-2002, 02:39 AM
Sooo... anything new other than the logo?

The Truthful Liar
06-11-2002, 03:05 AM
Site opens today... we still need a Database/PHP Scripter for the site otherwise we're stuck with .htm pages for now :( :( :( :(






That and... I'm a Sith now woohoo!!

NameItSelf
06-11-2002, 09:58 AM
what is the site you're talking about?

The Truthful Liar
06-11-2002, 12:07 PM
O.o Nothing important to you obviously o_O

/me having bad day

G-ForceX4
06-11-2002, 02:20 PM
what if you were to make the sword combat more realistic by that when 2 people duel, they are locked facing each other, the keyboard is the only thing to move you around and your mouse, instead of looking around, will move the lightsaber in the fashion that you move your mouse. Jabs and special moves could be done with the mouse buttons, but otherwise, the fight becomes a more realistic one where to block you actually have to move your saber to block it and you must swing your saber away from the other persons in order to score a hit(one hit kill)

Rajess MoDuron
06-11-2002, 02:59 PM
We're thinking of incorporating a number of things like that.

Picasso
06-11-2002, 03:59 PM
About the hanging, i dont think he meant to do a hole? Just slash the saber into the wall and sliiiiide down while doing a fat hole in the wall :D
It's a shame you already got people i would be real happy to work on this.. but if u got people you got people..:(

D@rth M@ul
06-11-2002, 04:01 PM
I think you have run into a problem with your title.

Well that is if your going to incorporate Darth Maul
and other various jedi (sith etc.) from the more up to
date story line. Now from what I've read (the first page of this thread)
It seems like you have a nice setup and I truly wish you
luck and offer whatever help I may be able to assist you with.
:dsaber:
As some have said you have chosen to use many stances
but I hope you find a talented animator to do all of these.
:dsaber:
I hope that light saber fighting in your mod will be crafted
around the way its truly done. For instance dueling is not always
fast pace, take for example Darth Maul and the duel of fates, he
kinda stared them down and then they fought fiercer and fiercer.
When I think about what I said, I guess it would be hard to do
but that all depends on the combos. (I do not yet own JK2 but am purchasing)
Im not too familiar with the already established jk2 gameplay but
I have a clue.


.:::::::::::::::::: ps ::::::::::::::::::::
Boba fett is not dead, according to eu.
Apparently the chemicals in the sand
beast's intestines could not render him
paralyzed because his armor absorbed it
all and eventually he blastered his way out
into the desert but was naked during his
long journey back. yeah!:fett: :fett2: :jango:

Rajess MoDuron
06-11-2002, 04:39 PM
Yeah, we may have another problem, NO PROGRAMMERS. But hopefully that can be fixed easily.

The Truthful Liar
06-11-2002, 04:53 PM
Welcome to the jk2.net forums D@rth M@ul!! I hope you enjoy your stay and please accept this complimentary 'jk2 welcome gift basket' full of goodies!! :D

Some nice ideas you got there, yes we're going to try focus this mod* (I'd consider this more on the level of "TC" - Total Conversion rather a simple mod) on the 'realisticness' (SP?) of saber action.

Picasso: Well what are your specialties? Are you a programmer? How about detailed modeller?

And yes, you're right I meant igniting your saber while falling down and being able to fall down slowly leaving a long and large scortch (sp?) mark down along the wall.

Cheers ;)

Rajess MoDuron
06-12-2002, 10:58 AM
Welcome welcome D@rth M@ul!!

Picasso, show us some of your work buddy!

Oh, right...<bump>

The Truthful Liar
06-12-2002, 11:08 AM
.plan UPDATE please?!?

What's the overview as of now? :eek:

Lots of ideas have been swimming around, it'd be nice to colaborate all of them together - yet of course, that's not possible - so basically what I'm trying to say is...

WAAAAAZZZZZZZAAAAAAP!!!??

:D :D :D

[Edit: *cough* And yes, nice avatar ;) - he looks like you eh? or you look like him :p]

Rajess MoDuron
06-12-2002, 11:44 AM
Eh, I'd have to say I look like him, since he's famous and I am not.

The Truthful Liar
06-12-2002, 11:55 AM
o.O

Indeed.

So, no update?

Rajess MoDuron
06-12-2002, 12:13 PM
Not yet man, this is a lot to digest. I'm workin on it though.

The Truthful Liar
06-12-2002, 12:16 PM
Alright, how about that email of yours?

Rajess MoDuron
06-12-2002, 12:53 PM
Gimme some time yo, gimme some time!

Epimetheus
06-12-2002, 03:12 PM
Time? TIME?! Who has time?!

Rajess MoDuron
06-12-2002, 04:01 PM
I for one certainly don't.

The Truthful Liar
06-12-2002, 04:05 PM
I've got plenty of it.. time that is :p

Maybe just too much...

:D :D :D

D@rth M@ul
06-12-2002, 11:13 PM
Wow, thanks for that greeting. My old forums were never this nice
but CS players are totally different crowd.

Well I love the aspects of this TC, and I would certainly like to get
on the team. Heres my dillema (sp?)

a.) I dont own JK2 (Im in a different state and Im not legally allowed to drive ;)

b.) I'm not familiar with editing JK2 because I have not even gotten the game so my editing is about at the level of jar jar.

c.) I used to do re-colors and hacks for CS in milkshape so i can
change models and such so maybe that could help until I truly
learn to model which I have been pushing back for a long time now.

Until these things are hashed out, I can offer my support, and
I can help post news if we get a site running and help moderate
a forum if we also get one of them :)

lol thats about it, sorry if I cant help you further yet

Epimetheus
06-13-2002, 12:49 AM
I'll have you know Jar Jar is responsible for our best works, such as "ffa_meesaidiot" and "duel_killme". You'd better not make fun of his work.

Rajess MoDuron
06-13-2002, 11:05 AM
lol...sarcasm?

The Truthful Liar
06-13-2002, 11:28 AM
Who's work? Say what..? :eek: :confused:

o.O

Rajess MoDuron
06-13-2002, 12:07 PM
Where am I?

The Truthful Liar
06-13-2002, 12:16 PM
:eek: :eek: :eek:

Personally. I don't know :D

Edit:

OMG woooooooohoooooooo!!! Sith Lord BABY YEAH!! Bwahahaahah bow before your master!!

The Truthful Liar
06-13-2002, 01:00 PM
Anyway...

D'ya think we could get this thread back on track now? :p :cool: :D

Cheers ;)

Rajess MoDuron
06-13-2002, 01:24 PM
Shonuff.

D@rth M@ul
06-14-2002, 02:50 AM
So.... did you answer my question or did I miss it.

I'm getting jk2 tomorow

The Truthful Liar
06-16-2002, 07:51 AM
Sounds good :thumbsup:

Can we see some work? ;)

Darth Darth
06-18-2002, 11:54 AM
So, anything interesting happen in the week or so that I was too busy to come to this forum?

The Truthful Liar
06-18-2002, 06:56 PM
Yes; I am the Supreme Evil Taco now :evil2:

and... I've been working on some promo's lately and hosting... well I'm just slow on that side ;)

Seth - I've looked at some modders' work lately, and I noticed that 2 if not 3 are really good at what they do:

____________
Garik Loran
Tchouky
and
_ALIEN_JL__

Cheers ;)

[Site link: here (http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59776&pagenumber=2) and here (http://64.246.44.70/~lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=59407)]

Rajess MoDuron
06-18-2002, 11:21 PM
I've seen some of Tchouky's work, and it is excellent, same with Garik. Alien is unknown to me, but I will chizzeck him out.

Epimetheus
06-19-2002, 01:04 AM
So, has anyone actually started work on this yet?

Rajess MoDuron
06-19-2002, 01:18 AM
Not yet, we're still recruiting programmers.

The Truthful Liar
06-20-2002, 06:24 AM
Dear lord!! Almost hit page 2 again! :eek:

:D :D :D

Rajess MoDuron
06-20-2002, 06:58 AM
What is HILARIOUS is that EVERYTIME I try and ask people if they want to be programmers on this mod, it falls to page two. Preposterous.

JangoFett41
06-21-2002, 04:58 AM
Do you have any idea on when you might be getting started on this?

Rajess MoDuron
06-21-2002, 05:02 AM
Unfortunately, we cannot even begin to come up with a timeline until we get some GOOD programmers who can read and interpret the lightsaber code. We have softimage though.

The Truthful Liar
06-21-2002, 07:16 AM
Okay, I've noticed that we've mainly been concentrating on the MP aspect of this mod, tc - whatever it's called :p

So here's some of my first thoughts for SP action:

There should be some way to mod the single player to put in neutral people (NPC's) to make communal areas seem more lived in, such as Nar Shadda, Bespin, Coruscant, etc... They would react to the action taking place and perhaps interact more with the player himself in a more dynamic way.

A way to implement MANY MORE NPC's (I mean to really populate a map) without it lagging... you could possibly implement NPCs depending on range to the player. NPCs nearest to the player have full details (texture and model) and with increasing range the details drop. Is that possible. I don't know if this is just a stupid thought, but NPCs far far away could be represented by a very very low detailed mesh (perhaps just a square) with an animation of a character projected to it (maybe... it depends)

A few rather simple and basic ideas that have been discussed before which shuould most likely be added:

Moving, Running backwards = Slower than normal

Using guns = disables force use

Absorb - 'diffuses' surrounding opponents force rather stealing the mana

Rolling = takes force

Please note, some of these ideas were looked over in other threads (and posts in this one) based on complaints/suggestions on the gameplay of Jk2, I'm sorry if I cannot remember who to compliment for some of these ideas.

Cheers ;)

The Truthful Liar
06-22-2002, 04:53 PM
*yoink* back to page 1, there we go - yep ;)

Rajess MoDuron
06-24-2002, 11:54 PM
Bizzzzzump

The Truthful Liar
06-25-2002, 07:35 AM
Alright everyone, I've finally bought www.nrgteam.com and hosting :D The domain won't be ready for another day or so because they have to register it, etc...

The sites that will be hosted on nrgteam.com are:

Clone Trooper Federation - New Gaming team

The Archangel Brotherhood - Clan from 1998

LotR TC - Modding group for the Lord of the Rings TC

That's all, right now I'm just in the stages of getting the site up and figuring out FTP access.

If there are any talented PHP/Database people that would like to take the time to setup a new database that's php enhanced we'd be very greatful. (I'm not very coder savvy, so em... Databasing and PHP scripting = same talent area right? :eek: )

Cheers ;)

Rajess MoDuron
06-28-2002, 04:24 AM
Alright, time to be pro-active and try to get some coders and programmers.

Ko'or Oragahn
06-29-2002, 03:01 AM
Oops, very sorry, I promised that I'll post a list of the Force powers as I see them, but I have to find time to finalize it and almost make it coherent.

Darth Continent
07-01-2002, 08:26 PM
I don't know if you're still taking suggestions / comments, but since I think this is a really good idea, I thought I'd throw in my two republic credits' worth, even this late in the day.

BTW, is it possible to ask for an updated recap of what's in store in this mod?

1. guns == disables force use

Not a good idea, imo, even if only because I don't see why a player should be forced to use the light saber if he thinks he can do better with something else. Scenario-specific limitations, as in the Jedi Master game, are acceptable, but I think blanket prohibition is not a good thing.

2. Multiple saber styles

I am all in favor of multiple saber styles, but I don't think a character should be able to start with a non-standard saber or more than one, if it's a single-player game. Make him earn it, either by picking up a defeated enemy's saber, or in the case of a double-bladed saber, besting someone who has one.


3. saber throwing

I am of the opinion that the saber throw force power is overdone. We only ever saw Vader throw his saber once, and there's no canon proof that it came back to him. Keeping to a 3-level system, I would suggest the following changes:

level 1: saber flies out to maximum range, and then deactivates and drops to ground, as if you had pressed disable weapons at the apex. Saber can be recovered by Pull or by character manually recovering it.

level 2: saber flies out to maximum range, and then deactivates and drops to ground. Player can retrieve saber by pressing attack button.

level 3: saber flies out to maximum range and drops to ground, still ignited. Player can retrieve saber by pressing attack button, or have it return to his hand by Pulling the saber back to him before it drops. Once saber drops to ground, it can be retrieved as with level 2.

I don't think this detracts too much from the character's fighting ability, and it forces the player to watch out as to when he can safely throw his saber. If it goes over a long drop, say goodbye to the saber. Let's see you kill a saber-wielder with your guns.

Also, it eliminates _some_ of the computer players' fighting ability, which can be grossly unfair to human players unless they rely on speed to slow down the game.

This also eliminates the level 3 seeking saber power, which I absolutely detested, for several reasons.

4. light saber defense

I'm not sure if it's workable, but I would suggest that the player be more prone to block a strike in the area where his cursor is centered. This elevates defense from simply hoping that the skill kicks in to active defense. I'd let the player still block saber strikes that came from other angles, but it should be easier to block those you were actively trying to position your saber against.

Rajess MoDuron
07-01-2002, 09:18 PM
1) The reason that we are putting a blanket restriction is because:

a) Jedi don't use guns. THAT is canon.
b) It would invite too many spammers, who would find a loophole through one of our force powers that only works in combination with guns.
c) The guns we include will ALL be of high fire rate, most likely energy weapons. I hope to be able to work in Akimbo blasters and the like, to make blasters a more effective weapon in their base form against Jedi. Someone who knows how to use a gun should not need force powers to kill someone who has them. That was a Jedi Council Member that Jango Fett pulled a "Gunsmoke" on, so force powers will not give you a ridiculous advantage over your opponent.

2) I agree with you on one of your points, two lightsabers will not be allowed from beginning, you will have to pick up a slain comrade's weapon. Double-bladed, however, can be learned and started with. Will just take more skill to wield effectively.

3) I absolutely agree with your saber throw critiques, it is broken wide open and completely not following with the movies as it presently is. Darth Vader, arguably the "most powerful Jedi ever", could not make it come back to him IGNITED, so why should Kyle Katarn? Or any of the people in the servers, for that matter?

4) I'm sure that is workable in some way shape or form. We will be doing extensive work with the saber combat system as a whole, so this will likely recieve quite a bit of programming team attention.

BTW

When Tchoucky comes back online in August or something, I have assurances that he will be helping this team out. Now, whether or not it will be exclusive remains to be seen. I'd like to have him as lead programmer, but if someone else out there impresses Legion and I sufficiently, we may be able to work something out, in the interests of CEASING to TALK about this, and beginning to DO.

Seth

The Truthful Liar
07-01-2002, 11:48 PM
Don't forget folks, visit www.nrgteam.com for updates :)

(It's slowly starting, that's due to the fact our Database Admin left so we need another now... who can also deal with php script) :eek:

Rajess MoDuron
07-05-2002, 09:27 PM
BUMPIDDYBUMPBUMP

xan
07-06-2002, 12:36 AM
I've just started reading this thread, so forgive me if this has already been mentioned.. but with number 3 about saber throwing, if you throw it at someone and it drops to the ground, wouldn't that mean someone could just run up (number 2, two sabers) and grab it before you can get it back?

Rajess MoDuron
07-06-2002, 01:15 AM
Well, maybe. But there are ways around it, like de-flagging a saber until it's owner has died or something.

xan
07-06-2002, 02:25 AM
hehe. Good.. imagine all those lamers who'd steal peoples sabers. If somebody stole mine, i'd hunt them down a million times over. :p

The Truthful Liar
07-06-2002, 12:33 PM
Originally posted by xan
hehe. Good.. imagine all those lamers who'd steal peoples sabers. If somebody stole mine, i'd hunt them down a million times over. :p

:D

http://www.nrgteam.com

Update :cool:

The Truthful Liar
07-07-2002, 04:00 PM
Okay everyone, I just opened the forums:

www.nrgteam.com/nrgforums

Sign-Up if you wish and start posting!! :D

Also, I'm going to be away untill the beginning of August so... take care!! :cool:

Rajess MoDuron
08-13-2002, 12:14 PM
AHAHAHHAAHHAHA YOU THOUGHT I WAS DEAD, DIDN'T YOU!!?!?!?

Well, I am not. And neither is the Mod. Just been busy. Still taking applications.

The Truthful Liar
08-14-2002, 10:22 PM
Hopefully the database should be up before the end of this month.

Yes, I'm back as well :D

razorace
08-16-2002, 10:16 PM
Sounds interests and surprisingly like my Mod, Masters of the Force (http://66.250.145.38/showthread.php?s=&threadid=74456), I haven't read the whole thread yet but we seem to have a common goal. You maybe interested in merging the projects and resources?