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ArtifeX
04-19-2002, 11:38 AM
It's been a while since I've seen a saber moves thread, and I wanted to post a more current list than the ones I've seen so far. Hopefully this will help out some of the players struggling with saber duelling, and up the average skill level of the online players.

I'm becoming afraid that all the saber moves have indeed been found. If there isn't something new discovered or added by Raven via a patch soon, I'm not sure I'll keep playing. The moves that are truly effective and practical are far outweighed by those that seem to be useless filler. Hence, even with every combat option enabled, the fights become repetitive if your aim is to win rather than just goof around.

General Notes:

- All swings made to the left are generally faster than those made to the right, but have shorter range.

- Vertical swings are harder to hit with than horizontal ones.

- Downward swings break through defenses better than upwards or sideways swings.

- Defense Strength (strongest to weakest) - Standing still, Moving, Jumping, Using Force Power, Attacking.

- Light swings do 30 damage, Medium 60, and Strong 100.

- Non-swinging saber strikes to 5 damage each.


The Stances:

Light Stance -- 95% useless. You'll see this style used by a lot of newbies who constantly echo, "I'm Drizzt Do'Urden! I'm Drizzt Do'Urden!". It should be renamed to "Headless Chicken" style. Almost everyone you see using this style will run at you swing-spamming like a chicken with its head cut off (hence the monicker). The swings themselves are little faster than the medium style and do far less damage (about half) and have severely abbreviated range. Anyone trying to use this in a serious duel can consider themselves duly warned. The only swing of any use from this style is the duck-forward rush attack, but I'll describe it further down. The normal attacks are only effective in a no-force duel environment where healing is impossible and you can nick your opponent to death. Because of that you'll see many proponents of this style complaining about use of Force Heal and Force Drain in Force-powered matches.

Defense Holes: behind and right side.

Moves :

- Forward Rush - duck + forward + attack
- Damage: 60 pts.
- Recovery Time: Moderate
- Usage: A good long-range surprise attack. Most will telegraph this move by ducking and waiting for their opponent to come to them. Don't. Just tap duck, then forward + attack. The surprise factor is much higher that way. Still, there's many better tactics than this when your opponent is within this move's range that won't leave you open during a recovery time. Because this is a vertical attack, it's more difficult to hit with. You can chain these swings together ad infinitum. See my discussion of chained attacks below.

- Backstab - (opponent behind) back + attack
- Damage: 40 pts. (?, I think I remember this correctly)
- Recovery Time: Long
- Usage: This move blows. It's the hardest move to hit with except for maybe the Medium style's finishing move, is very slow, leaves you open to attack forever, and has very low damage. An all-around loser move. Use this when you're just trying to show off or humiliate someone.

- Light Combos
- The Hedge-Trimmer - While pressing the attack button, rapidly alternate pressing the strafe left and strafe right key. You will perform a very quick succession of short lateral swings. This is fastest group of strikes possible in the game.


Medium Stance -- Double the damage, better range, almost the exact same attack speed, and better special moves make this better than Light style by a factor of two at least. This style only allows a maximum of 5 swings to be chained together, but any more swings than 5 are just spam anyway.

Defense Holes: left behind, behind, right behind

Moves:

- Medium Finisher - (opponent in front and close) jump + forward + attack
- Damage : 60
- Recovery: long (special)
- Usage: This is a very unique move that causes you to flip over the head of your opponent and slash downwards at him while at the apex of your jump. It does fair damage, but leaves you open for some time. My advice is to use this infrequently to vary your attacks and to make sure that as you finish the move, turn so that your oppenent is in the 1-2 o'clock position relative to you, that way your saber will be pointing at them. If they rush you, they'll impale themselves on your still-dangerous saber. That's why I've marked this recovery time as "special"-- if you count the fact your saber is still dangerous until the animation is finished, then effective recovery time is shorter.

It has been reported that you can begin a medium slash and halfway through it hit jump + attack and you will begin the medium finisher. This is similar to pulling off the Strong finisher. (Thx, Tam) I have verified this through testing. The timing is more difficult because of the speed of the initial swing, but it is possible.

- Rear Sweep (Medium) - (opponent close and behind) back + attack
- Damage : 80 or 160 or 240
- Recovery : Moderate
- Usage: This does a turning, corkscrew sweep. Useful in the right hands. If your opponent is VERY close and in the 8 o'clock position relative to you, you can actually strike three times with this for a total damage of 240 points. Incidental, non-swing damage is frequently inflicted with this attack, so you may get an extra 5, 10 or even 15 points of damage out of it depending on how you time it.

- Medium Combos
- The Hedge-Trimmer - While pressing the attack button, rapidly alternate pressing the strafe left and strafe right key. You will perform a very quick succession of short lateral swings. This is fastest group of strikes possible in the game.

Strong Stance -- All the best players I've met have used this stance. This should be renamed to, "Experienced Stance" or "Thoughtful Stance" because it is the only stance that allows you to choose a swing and move in the direction of your choice. The range is fantastic; as is the damage. The finishing move is almost always a 1-hit-kill and can be launched from a myriad of other attacks. The under-used vanilla jump attacks are also tactically superior to the other stances. Healers and Drainers got you down? Hit them once to knock off their default 25 shields and let them heal all they want, because the next time you hit them with even the basic strong swing, they're dead.

This stance also has the advantage of blasting through weaker defenses. If you've not been putting 3 levels into Saber Defense, you're going to get eaten alive by Strong stance players. The overhand chop is especially viscious (forward/backwards + attack). It's been reported that some have a lot of success with the back + right + attack swing breaking through defenses while someone's on the move (thx, Lord Nodata). After testing, I've found that this is because this diagonal swing will go underneath another swinging saber. If the opponent isn't swinging, then this isn't as effective as a downwards cut.

Defense Holes: left and behind

Moves:
- Finisher (Strong) - (half second after the start of any strong swing) jump + forward
- Damage - 100-200
- Recovery Time - Long (special)
- Usage - This is the most powerful swing in the game (Maybe. See Strong Back Sweep below). You'll see a lot of newbies spamming this move once they've learned it. Using it halfway through a regular swing or after a vanilla jump attack works equally well; only the range is different. Make sure to stay turned towards your target all the way through the animation as your saber is still dangerous even when completely buried in the ground in front of you. Many have died walking over that subterranian saber. At certain points during the animation it is uncounterable except by some force powers(push always works). Very early in the swing you can be cut down out of the air fairly easily, but the window of opportunity is very short. My advice is if you see someone start this, get away from them, then retailate, or use force push on them (using force pull is a great way to commit suicide here).

- Strong Back Sweep - (opponent close behind) back + attack
- Damage - 120 or 240 or 360(!)
- Recovery - Moderate
- Usage - This has the potential to be more powerful than the strong finishing move. I've backed someone into a corner and hit them 3 times with this one swing. Once with the wind up, once with the start of the swing, and once with the end of it. I'll try to duplicate it and post a demo later. This should be possible with the medium version as well since they're the same animation, but I haven't tried that yet. This beats the medium version anyway for just that reason: same animation, more damage.

Chained Attacks

Because of the way swings are chosen in jk2, by moving in a particular direction and hitting attack, the usefulness of chained attacks is somewhat dubious. This means that when you are attacking your opponent with fast medium (or light) stance swings you have two choices. You can either: 1--choose which swing you want, or 2--move in the direction of (or away from) your opponent and take the swing that direction gives you. It is seldom (1 out of 8 times) that your opponent will just happen to be in the direction of exactly the swing you want to do. To me, this makes both medium and light stance pretty useless since you should always control your position before your swing. Hence, every swing after the initial one is just potluck depending on which direction you need to move in at the time.

Kicks

If you don't use kicks now, start. They're the fastest attacks in the game and their damage ignores shielding. 20 points armor-piercing damage is not to be scoffed at. Nor is the chance that you will knock your opponent down a la force push. Kicking can be done by either pressing forward or sideways into your opponent and hitting the jump key. Forward does a back flip-kick and sideways does a side flip-kick. Extra style kudos for using the side flip-kicks. Many times I have turned off my saber during a duel and kicked someone to death from full health. It's a most humiliating way to die. This is a great way to set your opponent up for a coup-de-grace.

I have a big problem with No-Force matches because they don't allow kicks, which are the only counter against a rushing player in that environment (aside from a disengaging roll, but all that does is drag out the match. No, blocking i don't consider a counter, because it has a random factor associated with it). I generally won't play them for that reason.

Rolls

Rolls are the better of the two faster movement modes, the other being jumping. You can move about a map faster by constantly rolling rather than running. Rolling has the advantange over jumping of better directional control. While jumping, air control is minimal, but you can actually completely reverse direction during a roll by quickly flicking the view around 180 degrees just as you start the roll. The only drawback is the slight recovery time that leaves you open to attack.

Wall-walking and flips

Wall-walking - (Gotta have level 2 jump) run along side a wall while strafing in its direction and hit and hold the jump key. You'll run up the wall. Release and hit jump again quickly to flip off the wall. Simply release to fall to the ground.

A neat trick is to wall-walk along irregular surfaces. This will give you an extra boost up every time you hit another polygon surface. You can almost hit the sky box in duel_jedi outside near the stream doing this. Make sure you hold down jump all the way through the walk if you try this.

Wall-flip - run forward into a wall and hit jump just as you make contact. You'll do a back flip off the wall. Hitting and holding the back key will give you enough distance from the wall to get behind a closely persuing opponent.

Saber Locking

Who wins a saber lock is determined by two factors: who can click their attack button faster and who can use force push more without running out of force power. Try to finish a successful saber lock with a push, otherwise while absorbed in your clicking fervor, you'll make an accidental swing after knocking them over that won't reach them. If you're using the strong stance then you won't have enough time before they recover to get in another swing.

Saber Defense (blocking)
After a very thorough amount of testing, I have compiled a large amount of surprising information on saber blocking. I'll organize this into three sections: the affect of the Saber Defense Force power, the "blockability" of the different stance's swings, and Saber Throw blocking.

First of all, spending points on level 3 saber defense IS worthwhile when blocking blaster fire or saber swings. Far fewer blaster shots will make it through your defense with a higher skill level. Defending against a saber swing isn't quite so simple. Raising your defense will increase your chances of blocking an attack, but equally important is the placement of your saber at the time your opponent makes his attack. If you can maneuver you saber between your player model and the incoming saber swing, your chances of blocking will be massively more successful. This, I believe is why Light stance and Medium stance are thought to be(or are) more successful at blocking strikes--because if you're facing your opponent then your saber is between the two of you, which is exactly where it needs to be. This is more important when you have a low saber defense score, as you'll have to "manually" block most incoming strikes if you want to survive. Think of having high defense as blocking on "auto".

I feel I have to break this to all the Light and Medium stance proponents out there: there's yet another reason not to use your styles. A player can render himself completely invulnerable to your Light Style attacks and about 90% resistant to Medium attacks simply by getting level 3 saber defense, squatting in a corner and facing you. That 10% of Medium that will hit is the finishing move (sometimes) and the occasional swing that gets a bit behind him. I did this over and over again to verify it, and I am sorry to say it's true. This even works against many of the Strong stance swings, although you can break the defense nearly 100% if you get extremely close. That's because the swing's range is so great that the saber ends up behind the opponent and effectively gets them in the back. I actually killed myself on my assistants immobile outstretched blade while trying to score a hit with Light Stance. Did we need any more reasons not to use it? There are two exceptions to this: The light stance backstab is completely unblockable when your opponent is crouched, and the Light Stance lunge move can break through maybe 5% of the time.

Light Stance Blockability - you can block this all day long even with only level 1 saber defense. Someone using this is basically going to have to get behind you or far to one side to hit you with anything or charge blindly into you while you are swinging at them. The backstab is fully blockable, and is oddly moved off to the right sometimes by the block (make that very oddly), but is unblockable by a crouched target. The lunge move is also easily blocked by a stationary opponent, but not a moving one.

Medium Stance Blockability - Slightly more effective than light style because of its greater range which makes its attacks come more from the sides or behind than the Light Style counterparts. These are still blocked easily by looking at your attacker directly and not moving or attacking. The Medium finisher move is blockable, but rarely, because it slices down from above and to the side. The rear sweep attack is blockable but is dangerous in 3 different stages, all of which must be blocked if you are positioned correctly. This combined with the strangeness of the attack makes the chances of a successful block very slim.

Strong Stance Blockability - By far the least blockable of the stances. The oft-decried "Death from Above" finisher is actually blockable, but the close positioning required to do so is not only difficult, but seemingly inconsistent. Better to just get out of the way. I have not seen a successful block yet against the strong back sweep swing. This is for all sakes and purposes, unblockable. Of special note is the overhand vertical swing (forward or backwards + attack). This swing actually hits a stationary target twice and was the most successful at breaking through the "squatters" defense mentioned above. Many times the first hit near the head will be blocked, but the second hit near the knees will not. The backwards+right swing is also very penetrative when it connects low in the animation near the feet.

- Saber Throw Blocking - The saber defense skill appears to have no effect whatsoever on whether or not a thrown saber will be blocked. Even with only level 1 defense every front-impact throw can be successfully blocked using any stance as long as you are standing still. The only throws that will connect are those that attack from the sides or behind. Someone is always vulnerable to a throw while they are attacking. Despite beliefs to the contrary, testing has shown that it makes no difference whatsoever whether you throw at the feet, the body or the head--all frontal attacks will still be blocked.

Long Story short:
- If you want to block something, use light or medium stance.
- If you want to hit something, use strong stance.
- If you want to keep from getting hit by light and medium stance, stand still or crouch with your back to a corner.
- If you want to keep from getting hit by Strong stance, get the h3ll out of the way.

Countering "Death From Above" (DFA)
Also known as the Strong Finishing Move or Strong Leap Attack, this move seems to have caused players more grief than any other saber move. The ease with which it can be done, the massive damage it inflicts, the ability to rotate the swing during execution, and the huge hitbox it seemingly has make this cut one of the most effective in the game.

Though difficult, there are several saber-only ways of countering this move. The simplest of those would be to get out of the way. The drawback to that is that if you retreat too far then you have gained nothing, but neither have you lost anything. Learn to judge the minimum safe distance from the DFA and retreat no farther than you must--that will maximize your ability to counter. Another easy solution is to back away and throw your saber where they land. It's a quick 30 points of damage and they are completely defenseless against it. That's the strategy I recommend for FFA private duels: a few of those and they'll think twice before using DFA again. I would not recommend using this against someone who can heal themselves through heal, drain or by picking up nearby health and shield packs. All that would do is drain your force by 3 bars that could have been used on a more effective tactic. Third, you can attempt to counter their DFA with one of your own. The timing for this is very tricky, as is judging the distance and angle of your target. I have found that if you begin the swing that will lead into your DFA as soon as you know which direction they are lunging in, then your timing will drop you on top of them just as they are recovering from their slice: it should be a duel-winner. Lastly, if you find someone repeatedly spamming this move, you can choose to crowd them by staying close. The DFA-user is very susceptible to a counterswing very early in their execution when their saber is far back over their head. Try staying right on top of them and using a lot of the forward/back + attack downward chops and the back + right + attack diagonal uppercuts with the Strong style.

Though this isn't a guide on using force powers, in the interests of being thorough i'll mention a few force power counters. First, and most simple, using Force Push on them while they are in the air is 100% guaranteed to push them away from you. This may just serve to disengage you from melee for a few seconds and not allow you to counterattack, but it is very effective when in a closed in space where other strategies are not viable and when your enemy is close to a bottomless pit. Force Lightning can also be a big help. Being able to damage your opponent without ever entering his DFA range will force him to either change tactics or face eventual death (you are unlikely to kill him on the first shot, even by using up a full charge from your force pool). The Drain and Grip combination is a winner in this situation, though it uses up a ton of force power. The idea is to Drain them while avoiding their initial swings, then to Grip them once they hit the ground with their DFA. At that point, either complete the grip for full damage, or carry them to the nearest bottomless pit and drop them in for an easy kill. The last tactic is the most difficult, but can be the most punishing. Once they complete the DFA, there will be a very brief recovery where they will be completely vulnerable to being Pushed or Pulled from close range. If you time it perfectly, you can rush them at this point and knock them over 100% of the time. The importance of grasping the opportunity at just the right point cannot be stressed enough! If you go too soon, you risk being hacked by their still-dangerous saber. Too late, and they can counter your Push/Pull or simply get away. Follow the knock-down with a powerful swing and this could win you the duel.

Getting Up off Your 4$$ and Back Into the Fight

Getting knocked down by kicks, Push and Pull is a common occurrence in jk2. Getting up quickly and avoiding the incoming saber aimed at your head is not so common. There are three ways to get up: a back flip, a high back flip, and a kick-flip.

A simple back flip is done by pushing one of the directional movement keys or your attack button when you're knocked to the ground. This performs a low backflip off of the ground to a standing position. The Good: very fast; gives you a chance to block incoming attacks if you stand completely still and face your opponent immediately after getting up. The Bad: you're a sitting duck; the Strong overhand chop can frequently break through your block and hit you once or twice; if you don't get up quickly, then instead of blocking that cut you're going to take it in the teeth.

The high back flip is accomplished by mashing your jump key repeatedly when knocked down. This performs the same animation as the simple flip, but gets some air between you and your attacker. The Good: fast; most horizontal swings will go underneath you. The Bad: not as fast as the simple flip; a saber hit will throw you a good distance, which might result in a falling death; still susceptible to the overhand chop.

The kick flip is like the high back flip except that as you hit the jump key, you push forward towards your opponent. Done properly, this will not only avoid damage from the incoming attack, but will inflict 20 points of kick damage on your opponent. The Good: fast; can counter-attack; may knock the opponent over. The bad: enemy has to be within kick range.

Notes: You are not helpless while getting up. You are free to use Force Push, Pull, Protection, Absorb and many other force powers as soon as you begin to get up. If your enemy is a little too slow to come in for the kill, you may succeed in knocking him flat with Push or Pull. Another Light Side tactic would be to turn on Force Protection as soon as you get knocked over. That way, even if you do get hit with the incoming swing it will take off far less damage. Make sure to turn it off quickly after getting up as it drains your Force pool quickly.

Suggestions for Additions to Saber Combat

- More lunge moves. The light style lunge isn't enough, though i suppose the medium finisher is arguably a lunge. They are the only hope for L & M styles to counter the range of Strong outside of force power use.
- Different moves triggered by control commands like: left, left + attack; or back, left + attack.
- Make Light style not teh sUck.
- Give Medium style more acrobatic moves. One acrobatic move hardly justifies the game manual's description of medium style as including "acrobatics".
- Allow interactive parries to occur. (When opponent attacks) + Back would allow you to knock the enemy saber aside and
counter.
- After balancing the stances against one another, change how Saber offense is "bought" with force points. Make each style cost 4 or 5 points and allow each to be bought individually with no requirement to buy the others.
- Allow kicks with No-Force ruleset.

Raith
04-19-2002, 11:53 AM
Sweet post!

It wasnt until I was over halfway down I realised you were being serious this time :D

Jman3ooo
04-19-2002, 12:01 PM
I voted none cause most of that i know after hanging on duel servers.

Lord Nodata
04-19-2002, 12:06 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX
- Downward swings break through defenses better than upwards or sideways swings.

I have to disagree with this, and for one simple reason. There is a swing in the strong (red) stance that has won me more duels than ANY other swing (INCLUDING the jumping lunge from strong stance.) What is this move you ask? Back+Right+Attack. It starts the swing in the lower left and moves in a direct line to the upper right of your character. This move is great for one reason. Since it starts in the lower left (and I mean LOWER left) you can often run past your opponent on their left side, and your swing will often connect to thier feet...by-passing most defense.

Also, I would like to add something to the list here.

During any saber battle, if you HEAR your saber connect (you know the clashing noise you here when 2 sabers hit each other), if you pres the attack button AGAIN, AS SOON AS YOU HEAR THE CLASH, then you will swing another time. This goes for strong stance as well. I have even managed to pull off a spinning strike in the strong stance by doing this. Allowing for 2 100+ damage hits in a combo!

VeX_5150
04-19-2002, 12:09 PM
Yeah I've gotten quite a few kills with that, esp when you run by the oppenent and end up hitting their legs from behind. Also good against ppl recovering from heavy finisher.

ArtifeX
04-19-2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Lord Nodata


I have to disagree with this, and for one simple reason. There is a swing in the strong (red) stance that has won me more duels than ANY other swing (INCLUDING the jumping lunge from strong stance.) What is this move you ask? Back+Right+Attack. It starts the swing in the lower left and moves in a direct line to the upper right of your character. This move is great for one reason. Since it starts in the lower left (and I mean LOWER left) you can often run past your opponent on their left side, and your swing will often connect to thier feet...by-passing most defense.

Also, I would like to add something to the list here.

During any saber battle, if you HEAR your saber connect (you know the clashing noise you here when 2 sabers hit each other), if you pres the attack button AGAIN, AS SOON AS YOU HEAR THE CLASH, then you will swing another time. This goes for strong stance as well. I have even managed to pull off a spinning strike in the strong stance by doing this. Allowing for 2 100+ damage hits in a combo!

good info. I'll make sure to edit my post and add a saber lock section--forgot that initially

[QGA]Vertigo
04-19-2002, 12:19 PM
Hmm... interesting..

Tried out a few of those moves and I already noticed a good boost in my @$$-kickings ;)

Keep the info coming ! :)

kold
04-19-2002, 12:20 PM
i suggest you change your opinion about the lightstance, its more usefull than most stances using my technique, if you dont believe me email me and ill care to show you what it is (dont really want anyone else to know this technique or combo)

HertogJan
04-19-2002, 12:20 PM
Great post Artifex, I voted for "a lot", although I knew most of this stuff already... It's good to here it over and over again though, I always forget kicks are great! You can also jump on someones head and he will be kicked over too, if you don't land on his saber that is!

Oh yeah, I have another one!

- Force grip someone and hold it almost straight above your head, a little bit to you front
- When you let go of the grip key, or your force runs out, look straight ahead INSTANTLY!
- With a bit of luck, your opponent will land on your saber :cool:
This works best with the strong stance!

Azraelt
04-19-2002, 12:26 PM
I don't agree with you when you say the heavy stance is the experienced stance and that most good people use it.

1) Most n00bs use it because of DFA
2) It almost 1 hit kills you with most moves, all you need for that is timing. It's not hard to use that.
2)HUGE range
3) It leaves you open after every hit
4) It's simple to avoid
5) DFA requires no skill to use at all, if you spam it you will eventually hit. Even if you don't spam it, it's simple.
6) the strikes knock you down, (sarcasm on)it sure requires alot of skill to crush a downed enemy with a saber strike! (sarcasm off)

I believe medium stance is the most skill required stance in the game.

1) Moves do moderate damage, so you need to be aware when you can get in there and attack so it will hit
2) More thought required to do some combo's.
3) The finishing move requires much more skill to use, but when used effectively it is great.
4) It requires more skill to use this stance as it is not one hit kill. You need to be aware of the enemy's movement and have good map awareness.

Example of number 4:
I was playing in yavin, in one of the red tunnels, I was dueling a sith, me of course being Jedi. He was in strong stance, I was in Medium. He came towards me, did DFA, I wall ran until I got behind him, then turned and did the medium special move, he died.

Later on in that same map, I was fighing another Jedi, he came in and DFAed us both. Wow, so much skill there.

I believe this stance is a real "Jedi" and not a "Sith" stance since you must be patient and let them come to you. Alot of the times I just wait for them to charge at me in their heavy or medium stances and just side step and slash right across the chest.

I knew most of those moves anyways.

BrainStorm
04-19-2002, 12:31 PM
lets see... copy... paste.... print....

A-HA! I will study this and then I will be coming after you Artifex!!!

j/k!!!

I do appreciate the info. I am always looking to improve my sabering skills.

HertogJan
04-19-2002, 12:32 PM
You must be one of those "medium stance finishing move spammers" :rolleyes:

There's no point in saying "this stance requires the most skills, the other ones are for n00bs", every stance has it's pro's and con's. I find it a lot harder to aim attacks with the strong stance than with the medium stance.

You can't deny that strong needs more aiming (since you only can strike once), but you also can't deny that the strong finishing move is very easy to use!

BTW, I never spam moves, it gets boring for me when I do that. I use the stance/move that suits the situation best. When I see the chance to finish them of with the 1-strike-kill, I do it (like when people are stuck in the pit in duel maps).

kold
04-19-2002, 12:33 PM
heh when i saw that he called light stance a n00b stance and heavy stance an experienced stance i was about to laugh -_-
but then again i use all stances :p
but heavy indeed in my experience is the easiest way to get rid of ppl
light on the other hand for me is kept as my desperation arsenal

ArtifeX
04-19-2002, 12:48 PM
I agree with you that medium requires more skill to use to be successful. I also think that light style requires more skill to be successful than even medium style. That's because each style is successively less powerful. You pretty much drive my point home by yourself. If the strong stances moves are a.- easier and b.- have more range and c.- do more damage, then why use medium style in the first place if your goal is to win?

Originally posted by Azraelt
I don't agree with you when you say the heavy stance is the experienced stance and that most good people use it.

1) Most n00bs use it because of DFA
2) It almost 1 hit kills you with most moves, all you need for that is timing. It's not hard to use that.


Sounds like a perfect reason to use it to me.


2)HUGE range
3) It leaves you open after every hit


Yes, but you can always move out of the way or jump in mid-swing. The extended range will always counterbalance the slow speed as it is now. Also, you'll get punished by "Death from Above" if you count on going in on someone after every swing.


4) It's simple to avoid


I agree that many of the strong attacks are telegraphed, but this is outweighed by the ability to go into the "DFA" attack as you call it, during any swing animation. I don't want this to turn into another flame war, but the forward+left attack in strong is actually faster to hit than many medium attacks. How is that simple to avoid?


5) DFA requires no skill to use at all, if you spam it you will eventually hit. Even if you don't spam it, it's simple.
6) the strikes knock you down, (sarcasm on)it sure requires alot of skill to crush a downed enemy with a saber strike! (sarcasm off)


Again, more reasons to use strong rather than medium if your goal is to win and not role play.


I believe medium stance is the most skill required stance in the game.

1) Moves do moderate damage, so you need to be aware when you can get in there and attack so it will hit
2) More thought required to do some combo's.


Because they are weaker, have less range, and require you to move in a particular directional pattern to accomplish.


3) The finishing move requires much more skill to use, but when used effectively it is great.


Pretty, yes, but effective, no. 60 damage doesn't win a match. Two 60 damage hits doesn't win a match.


4) It requires more skill to use this stance as it is not one hit kill. You need to be aware of the enemy's movement and have good map awareness.




Again I don't disagree with you. But I think you'll agree with me that if the strong style is "easier" as you say, then you should be able to get more kills with Strong over Medium.

Please don't turn this thread into a flame war. It's purpose is to reveal as many saber moves as possible to everyone, and to keep the saber combat from becoming stagnant for those who want to win matches rather than role-play.

If you have some medium stance moves/tactics to add, then please, post them, but don't proclaim the superiority of one stance over the other without some specifics.

ArtifeX
04-19-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
Great post Artifex, I voted for "a lot", although I knew most of this stuff already... It's good to here it over and over again though, I always forget kicks are great! You can also jump on someones head and he will be kicked over too, if you don't land on his saber that is!

Oh yeah, I have another one!

- Force grip someone and hold it almost straight above your head, a little bit to you front
- When you let go of the grip key, or your force runs out, look straight ahead INSTANTLY!
- With a bit of luck, your opponent will land on your saber :cool:
This works best with the strong stance!

I'm pretty much trying to keep force powers out of the post. I only included the bit about push and the strong finisher because so many people have trouble countering it.

Also, that grip thing will only do around 5 to 15 damage.

Taicat
04-19-2002, 01:48 PM
Hmmm, nothing about throw combos? :(

NICE POST, Artifex!

One of my fav moves is to throw when in close, step left or right, and follow up with a slash or two to their side then kick while in Medium stance. Since I'm in close, the saber returns almost immediately, allowing me to chain additional moves behind it.

I also use throw to discourage someone who is rolling towards me, trying to get behind me. Throw and jump, pivot in mid air so I'm facing their back, and attack them.

Throw also comes in handy (for me, anyway) against someone who's jumping all over the place. Since they're limited in a directional sense while in the air, I throw where they're going to (eventually) land. It's all timing and anticipation at this point...

Want to point out that I'm *not* a throw-spammer; I use it tactically so I can either slow them down or so I can get in close.

Of course, none of this is valid on a NF server...;) I'll use a roll and the 'special' light or medium stance move to change things up in that case. (Ahh, if only I could kick-flip)

A quick comment aimed at those who don't like to 'share' their approach/tactics: it's your perogative, of course, but if you're even half as good as you claim you are, sharing wouldn't/shouldn't make a difference in your scores. IMO, knowing HOW to execute a move isn't the same as knowing WHEN to execute it....please note that this is not a flame, but merely a comment.....

Tree
04-19-2002, 02:01 PM
The saber stances are unbalanced.

The same reason light stance is useless is the same reason strong stance is overpowered. Think about it.

Im not going to exploit a game imbalance that is so obvious. I know how easy it is to use strong stance.

Its like your saying here is how strong stance is overpowered and thats why I use it.

The finishing move requires no skill at all and I hope it gets removed.

it is completely being abused on every server I visit.

It has no draw backs. If you hit you get a kill. If you miss you don't leave your self open. You cannot aproach someone who has just done the move without dying.

Bahh I hope Raven balances it.

ArtifeX
04-19-2002, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Tree
The saber stances are unbalanced.

The same reason light stance is useless is the same reason strong stance is overpowered. Think about it.

Im not going to exploit a game imbalance that is so obvious. I know how easy it is to use strong stance.

The finishing move requires no skill at all and I hope it gets removed.

it is completely being abused on every server I visit.

It has no draw backs. If you hit you get a kill. If you miss you don't leave your self open. You cannot aproach someone who has just done the move without dying.

Bahh I hope Raven balances it.

I do agree with you. I think the hit-box algorithms with that move are really screwy. It is possible to counter it, but it's a lot more difficult than it should be. The frightening thing is that you can bind an alias that will pull the move off every time. This move really doesn't bother me too much, but I know it's really, really tough for someone just starting out because of the hit weirdness.

I know you're not a newb, tree. Don't think that was aimed at you. :)

VeX_5150
04-19-2002, 02:14 PM
Tree that's a good point. You'd think the heavy style would somehow be harder to use and would take more skill. It would still be as powerful, but not everyone could figure it out in 5 minutes.

creamy
04-19-2002, 02:14 PM
medium stance special: the recovery time is long yes but in sp there is a way to circumvent the reccovery time when doing the flip just after u are in mid air start pushing back + jump button he will instantly do a backflip thus no recovery time and u get out of the way. but sadly this is only doable in sp

tam
04-19-2002, 02:27 PM
i'de like to point out some modifactations to those moves

1) light is not useless, its good against runners/jumpers

2) heavy special move and medium special move can be done by slashing, and at the end of the slash, press jump + attack and u'll do the special move.

quite easier than pressing jump attack and forward when close

ArtifeX
04-19-2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by creamy
medium stance special: the recovery time is long yes but in sp there is a way to circumvent the reccovery time when doing the flip just after u are in mid air start pushing back + jump button he will instantly do a backflip thus no recovery time and u get out of the way. but sadly this is only doable in sp

yeah, unfortunately there are many cool moves in sp that aren't available in mp. teh suck.

ArtifeX
04-19-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by tam
i'de like to point out some modifactations to those moves

1) light is not useless, its good against runners/jumpers


Good how? please post specifics.


2) heavy special move and medium special move can be done by slashing, and at the end of the slash, press jump + attack and u'll do the special move.

quite easier than pressing jump attack and forward when close

the medium special variant is news to me. i'll edit and credit you with the find. thx.

Soul-Burn
04-19-2002, 02:38 PM
Nice post man!

Tho I hope raven fixes the DFA... One thing they must do, is fix the fact that buried sabers do full damage.

I'd like to see a differing damage system, according to the actual force of the move.. So that you couldn't do so much damage when your saber is still moving really slow (preparing for attack, after buried)..

I've notice that keeping range from the enemy is very important, never stay in close contact with him or you can't defend (since you are recovering from moves)...

Also, I've found that if an enemy comes towards you, in most cases, you can move to the side and get a side slash in.. about 90% of the cases... Also, if they're moving towards you, a quick Medium, Left+Attack, Right is pretty useful (that's the two swing combo).

Azraelt
04-19-2002, 02:45 PM
Well yes I suppose the strong stance is the best if you like to win, and only win. But with the medium stance it's fun to role play and it is also fun to do those moves. If I wanted to go through each level and do some mindless killing then I would choose strong. With medium stance I still win almost every battle, but it makes it more fun.

To respond to your quoted post about me:

Quote 1.


Yes, I am not denying that the strong stance is good to use, but it does not need the most experience or skill to play with, like I said, most n00bs use it and it does have a 1 hit kill, so it's not hard to use.

Quote 2.

The strong stance is simple to avoid, because you can tell by the bit of a wind up of the character. I've learned to judge the swing by the motion of the body before they actually start the swing. With strong stance this motion is even more prominant and much easier to see, therefor it is simpler to avoid.

Quote 3.

Yes, but it's just so lame, all you do is knock people down then go in for the kill... where is the skill in that?


Quote 4.

It is a finishing move. I wouldn't just go right into the move. Where is the fun in that? You would obvously attack them some, then go into that to finish them off. I don't use it often.



I do not mean these posts I am making as a flame, I am just stating my opinion.



If you have some medium stance moves/tactics to add, then please, post them, but don't proclaim the superiority of one stance over the other without some specifics

You did this, in your original post.

All the best players I've met have used this stance. This should be renamed to, "Experienced Stance"

You say that this is the best stance, it's the experienced stance and that all good players use it.

The reasons I have posted these messages is because I do not agree with that statement. In your other message, which I have quoted you said not to do that, but you have done that in your original post.

Anyways, I really don't have any other saber skills to add in this respect.

ArtifeX
04-19-2002, 02:58 PM
Azraelt,

It is true that I gave my opinion about the Strong stance in the original post, but IMO, I have given a veritable wealth of reasons why I thought it was best for winning a fight.

All I'm asking is that if you've found a new move or tactic in the Medium stance that you feel evens the playing field between the two, that you post it for everybody. Remember, the goal is to deepen the duelling/fighting experience for everyone.

And I'll agree wholeheartedly with you that Medium stance can be a lot of fun. It's just not effective in a competitive environment in my experience--and that's what I'm concerned about.

D66
04-19-2002, 03:03 PM
Good post. I would only add one thing. Learn and alternate Saberstyles throughout a duel... I might open with strong but switch to medium to strike fatser than my oponent expects from a strong... Then Durring a saberlock, I always switch to light. That way, If I knock my oponent down off the lock, I am more likely to connect before he can get up, and if I go down, I can come up swinging much faster, allowing me a chance to back off and reasses.

Tree
04-19-2002, 03:03 PM
I think it is obvious to most decent players that the saber stances are unbalanced.

I suggest they remove or seriously alter the DFA. You can avoid it easily but they do not leave themselves open for attack. Which a one-hit one-kill move should do.

Just a suggestion.........

Maybe they should make all the ranges the same.

The weakness of a heavier stance is supposed to be a slower attack. Obviously this does not work well as a balance.

The range + power is what makes light stance useless and heavy stance overpowered.

BTW there is always some complete moron saying light stance is not useless. You are wrong. It is useless. You will get a beat down if you do use it. I don't think I have ever seen anyone use light stance and kill anyone in a duel. Only thing it is good for is maybe switching to it quickly for a special move then right back. That would be it.

For Artifex and some others, its nice to have an intelligent discussion about the stances without being labeled a "whiner" because I want a blanced game. You can pick out the posts of people who actually play multi-player.

Yet I am in agreement with Azraelt.

If they do not do something to balance it I am giving multi-player up.(ya I know big threat right :D) But I think a lot of good players will quit.

VeX_5150
04-19-2002, 03:22 PM
I agree with Soul-Burn that the GHOUL system Raven uses to calculate damage needs some work....at least on the MP side. From testing things out we've found a number of 'bugs' that seem like they would have been caught with more pre-release play-testing. Hopefully Raven will have time w/ their busy schedule to address some of these soon.

Valdarious
04-19-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Azraelt
I don't agree with you when you say the heavy stance is the experienced stance and that most good people use it.

1) Most n00bs use it because of DFA
2) It almost 1 hit kills you with most moves, all you need for that is timing. It's not hard to use that.
2)HUGE range
3) It leaves you open after every hit
4) It's simple to avoid
5) DFA requires no skill to use at all, if you spam it you will eventually hit. Even if you don't spam it, it's simple.
6) the strikes knock you down, (sarcasm on)it sure requires alot of skill to crush a downed enemy with a saber strike! (sarcasm off)

I believe medium stance is the most skill required stance in the game.

1) Moves do moderate damage, so you need to be aware when you can get in there and attack so it will hit
2) More thought required to do some combo's.
3) The finishing move requires much more skill to use, but when used effectively it is great.
4) It requires more skill to use this stance as it is not one hit kill. You need to be aware of the enemy's movement and have good map awareness.

Example of number 4:
I was playing in yavin, in one of the red tunnels, I was dueling a sith, me of course being Jedi. He was in strong stance, I was in Medium. He came towards me, did DFA, I wall ran until I got behind him, then turned and did the medium special move, he died.

Later on in that same map, I was fighing another Jedi, he came in and DFAed us both. Wow, so much skill there.

I believe this stance is a real "Jedi" and not a "Sith" stance since you must be patient and let them come to you. Alot of the times I just wait for them to charge at me in their heavy or medium stances and just side step and slash right across the chest.

I knew most of those moves anyways.
I agree, I almost always dominate when using medium, I very rarely have much of a problem going against Strong Stance in medium. If you are on a Non Force server standing still in Medium will block all strong attacks except for the special, once blocked, they are open because the person is ussualy running away to get to the ready position to swing again.
I dont really agree that the medium special is that good, I would rather switch over to the light stance and do a "jump thrust special" then switch back to medium while landing. Yes, you can do the thrust in mid air. The medium special, most of the time just leaves you open for an attack and doesnt connect most of the time. Just my thoughts, I dont use strong stance hardly at all, I tried it out for awhile and didnt like it. Too much moving around until you get back to the ready position, the special is too powerfull, I would rather duel my oponent than kill him in one hit.

Soul-Burn
04-19-2002, 03:33 PM
The deal with Strong, is that many players use it. I heard someone say: "I play with it cuz I can kill in one hit"

_Most_ Strong users are not really skilled, and you can kill them easily... Some that I have seen (one called "Hot Metal") was really a master with it.

Tried it out... haven't decided yet.

Tree
04-19-2002, 05:08 PM
Think about this.

In a light stance vs medium stance match it would take the light stance player to be much more skilled than the medium stance player to win.

It's the same for medium vs strong.

Using a stance with more range + power does not equal more skill.

Mortician
04-19-2002, 05:24 PM
Whatever, Agressive Stance is difficult to play.

I myself only die with it, but Im sure that if you are skilled with the agressive stance and kill all nubes you encounter, you will still have a hard time killing a medium stance pro.

YOU WIELD THE SWORD, NOT THE OTHER WAY ROUND ;)

Taicat
04-19-2002, 05:28 PM
I look at it this way:

Using medium (my preferred, although I switch around a bit) against either of the others is a challange. Especially Strong. And that's all I ask for.

Now, two of the same against each other is the best, imo (especially two meds). Both have the same power, speed, and reach. Love that...comes down to tactics, and who makes the most/biggest mistakes.

StAtilXl
04-19-2002, 05:30 PM
If u r smart enuf u can win with the light stance just swing only when u have a sure chance of hitting. ive killed lotsa ppl with just light or medium maybe finish them off with heavy or the other way around...

In JK alot of ppl used secondary swing only and didnt know that the primary swing Owned for the 1st or finishing hit. it took 1 secondary and 1 primary to kill some 1 or 2 secondarys all the players i played with that were good used both when if they had a chance of either of them connecting... i know its a different game but the general rules can be used.

tam
04-19-2002, 06:24 PM
oh sorry if i wasnt clear on the light stance

its good against jumpers because as they jump and if they are using medium stance or heavy slash, it will always register as a hit for u when u hit them in the air, runners, well roll into them and it will give u a few secs to get a few hits in.

Gray Fox
04-19-2002, 06:37 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong here. If I'm not mistaken, the light stance does have some uses due to its defensive purposes. It generally blocks (like against sabre throws) better than the other stances correct? I've stood still and defended against sabre throws before but when i'm in heavy stance, its still seems to break thru the block. BTW, do the stances effect how much damage is inflicted in sabre throws or its simply a matter of how many points you have in sabre throw?

Gray Fox
04-19-2002, 06:41 PM
oh yea, I forgot to thank Artifex for the enriching post. I've figured most of the stuff out watching and playing this game, but it was still nice to have it all broken down in detail. Thanks. Your commentaries are almost always delightful.

Deeva
04-19-2002, 06:47 PM
Red Stance = Newbie Llama Garbage.

You guys seem to equate "score" with "skill" which, in the case of that ridiculously overpowered style, is absolutely not the case.

StAtilXl
04-19-2002, 07:11 PM
The heavy stance isnt that powerful just dont get hit by it :cool:

MrCrusher
04-19-2002, 07:53 PM
Nice post, some great ideas and discussion.

- After balancing the stances against one another, change how Saber offense is "bought" with force points. Make each style cost 4 or 5 points and allow each to be bought individually with no requirement to buy the others.
Excellent idea....


Is there any advantage in specing high defense other than projectile defense? I do not think specing in defense adds anything to sabre blocking. Any valid documentation on this? Has anyone done testing to sort out how defense works?

Blocking seems works about the same regardless of how defense is spec'd.

LooNBB
04-19-2002, 08:01 PM
I really wish Raven had implemented the stances a bit differently. I can conceptualize how a "stronger" attack will be harder to block, have a better range, and be harder to recover from, but the damage model is kind of silly.

If you get chopped lightly by a lightsaber (which moves effortlessly through metal) one would suppose it would just as effortlessly cleave a person as swinging real hard.

I really would have liked to see the different stances based on defensive vs aggressive power and not this more damage stuff.

I think it is the one thing that really takes away from seeing real creativity in saber battles.

I am no master, but I like to switch between stances throughout my matches. I figure if I can throw someone off with a few distracting combos then they won't expect me to suddenly Land the DFA. Also... when they are ready for another long attack and mentally prepared for that I like to chop in quickly.

I agree that the Light stance is useless as anything but a distraction ("oh look at the pretty saber... SLAM!")

Reapy
04-19-2002, 08:02 PM
Just to elaborate on what grey said about the light stance blocking more attacks and the balance issues. We also have to remember that jedi knight is just not dueling with the saber only. The creators also had to take into mind that people will be using guns in the fight. If someone is opening up on you with the heavy repeator, light stance is the way to go to block all that crap coming at you. Med and heavy just wont get the job done as effectivly. Also, dont forget the single player game. Vs those regular guys, light was the way to go. Multi saber only definatly they need to be balanced differently. So remember to take that into consideration when you regard the balance between the stances.

Just some changes I think would be helpful...

Make the heavy special difficult to pull off. Swing then instant kill whoevers in front of me if they come near me? Too easy to do. Last night I did it and totally missed everyone then some guy got force pushed over my guy and died, it was bs. During a duel someone did this and hit me down from full + shields to like 30 health by doing this and landing not anywhere near me. It needs tweaking. Make it hard to do, 2 heavy swings then the jump maybe, something where it takes time to wind up and you can see someone doing it. I dueled someone (the challenge with no force involved) on a narrow walkway, he started out and heavy specialed me, i had nowhere to go, it was over before it started. Maybe make it a force power and use some of your foce. That would be very helpful.

Light stance, give it more range. I know the idea is tight close to your body for defence, but to hit someone you need to go into those combos that give you some range with your swings, which leads me into my next gripe...

Let me do a swing without moving. Let me set my depth to the other player, start my swing, then move forward. If i want to do a heavy lower left to upper right swipe i have to strafe back and away first, then move forward, usually messing up my timing and distance, i tend to end up using those strikes only when backing away. Perhaps turning off auto run would help, walking you dont move as much to start a swing up.

This game doesnt seem to lend itself to combos, I cant say i have enough experience for this statment but, well, it just seems blocking is subpar. Meaning the best way, at liest for me, to get a hit in is to menuver around until i can make my saber hit the other player right after his swing or in his back or sides, not to strike once, have it blocked, and be following through with another strike ala busido blade2 (best sword fighting game i've seen so far in my own opinion hehe). Here it seems great timing on your first strike is what you need, hitting with the combo is just luck that your opponet wasnt ready for you and timing his hit while you are running the wrong way inorder to get your guy to spin around the way you want. This is why light is so poor, to do well with it you have to attack fast and hard and every hit has to connect, so you have to spam, whlie youare doing this, as was said in the first post you are at your weakest defence, and are going to get railed. So the additional moves are there, but very unpractical to access and time the strikes.

By the way, great post on the compilations of moves, keep up the good work!

Quick comment on the i dont want anyone to know what i do... I learned all the tools i use for killing people by spectating, you cant stop a spectator from seeing what you are doing. And as was said before, they are only tools, you have to learn how to use them effectivly.

Sundevil

Dimitri Popov
04-19-2002, 09:26 PM
I dont like the strong stance for a few reasons: when i get in a duel i generally like to have it last longer than 2 seconds. ANd also often on saber only severs there is a room with a big melee of 4+ people. Strong stance can come in and just swing wildy as fast as they can , they are bound to hit someone with their back turned , and that one hit kills. I think having such a strong attack is kind of a bad idea. But it doesnt bother me too much. I use medium..

Anyways , great post. I agree medium needs some better moves.

Azraelt
04-19-2002, 10:15 PM
I believe that they really should increase the strength of the Medium finishing move, it is by far much harder to pull off then the DFA and it also leaves the player open, to a certain extent.

kritschewsky
04-19-2002, 10:17 PM
Among the best players I have met, hardly ever use the strong stance.

The strong stance is good in keeping people at bay, and to do when there is distance between you.
But the important thing is to change stances all the time.
I use all 3 stances witing just a few swings, depending on space and closeness to my opponent.
The red stance is very good, but a player mastering the medium style will beat a red stance players 9 out of 10.
There is no doubt about that.
However, a wise player use both medium and red stance alot.
I personally try in a duel to get in an attack early on with red stance, and then finishes off with medium or blue.
I see a lot of players in duels with no health or force, getting in a red stance hit, and continuing to use it. What 's the point....
The medium is very fast, just forward attack, that swing is very fast, use medium directly after you hit with red, to finish him off, as even a blue stance attack that hits at that point will kill.

Anyway, DFA is a lamer move as it is right now. There is a bug, if you just walk over the saber, as you said, you will die, after they have finished the move.
Yes, a lot of noobs out there use the DFA, ONLY. BUT, a lot of good players use it aswell and ought to. If used with timing it is very lethal. If used to much, your opponent will be aware and keep at bay. Especially since as soon as you have started it, whoever touches the saber at that point will die, untill your recovery runs out. Just circle around and use medium, or better yet, when you see him coming, start off a red stance side swing and move aside, you will hit him in the back while he is sitting down recovering from his DFA.

Anyway, medium is in many ways better than red, it all depends on who you are meeting. In certain situations, the red is better.
The blue, the "uppercut" attack can be chained to do an additional 2-3 attacks in a extremely fast manner.
You do 3 attacks before he have even started his red stance swing.

Anyway...nice manual

Vorax
04-19-2002, 10:32 PM
Interesting stuff here, but I only use medium stance. Actually, not quite true, I hop around the stances if it better suits the style of my opponent..ie...they are probably doing that. 90% use medium

I started with strong for the first week, but realized its limits are horrible. Strong is to slow and clumsy. Against a skilled medium player you get your ass kicked. You win by luck, 1 out of 4 times maybe...if your lucky. If you hit you win, but against a skilled medium or even light (I have seen guys who use only light that get accused of cheating becuase they kick ass so well against strong stance guys...I will try that once I master the medium). They can just move to fast. Perhaps on a no-force server strong would have some use, but for the most part, any player familiar with the Quake engine games can straffe run circles around you, or wall walk, or jump over you, 'push' you around like a rag doll cuz of that long wind up, pull-kick you, endless stuff. Master medium and you will be unstoppable...I am not a master yet, but I am taking notes from the best players I see and they all use medium or light.

I really don't see why everyone fears strong so much, just keep moving, jumping, rolling, pushing, pulling, kicking flipping, draining, protecting and whatever else you can think of. You will be surprised at how well you do. The simplest way to beat a strong stance player move fast.... Just remember your opponent is counting, for the most part, on luck...skill beats luck any day. ;)

Sun Tzu, The Ancient Art of War: Make your enemies greatest weakness, your greatest strength.

- Vorax

F**kOffRegister
04-19-2002, 10:46 PM
HAHAHAHA
heavy stance is used by experienced/advanced players
HAHAHAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Looks like the poll relfects a "thinks hes amazing" kind of feedback

Azraelt
04-19-2002, 10:49 PM
I didn't even vote, I have no idea what the heck that poll says. :rolleyes:

ACGe0rge
04-19-2002, 11:58 PM
I'm also a medium stance user. I almost never switch stances although a occasionally switch to light to counter weapons. So far I have been able to dominate, or at least hold my own, against all but one strong stance user I've found. It's just so easy to avoid strong swings as long as you keep your distance and know when to move.

Medium stance requires more skill to use in my opinion. You have to have a better sense of timing and be able to move effectively. I've seen a lot of guys use strong stande and really all they have to do is swing like crazy and they will often get a lucky hit that will either kill someone outright or do a ton of damage. If you know when and where to move, and how and when to swing with the medium stance, you can make the strong moves almost useless. I used to get my butt kicked by stong stance users but now that I've had enough practice, I often can take out strong stance users without taking any damage.

As I said, there was one recently who kept beating mw with strong sstance. I'm not exactly sure why I kept getting my butt kicked by that chick (was using Tavion skin so I'm assuming it was a girl). She kept jumping and using the finishing move against me. I usually have the easiest time with people who do that, but for some reason I just couldn't get out of the way fast enough. I may have just been having a bad day, but most likely she had just perfected that move.

So, no offense Arti, but I have to disagree with your opinion on strong stance. I think that medium is the real "experienced" stance since it requires some real skill and timing to use. Not that the strong stance doesn't have it's place. The real masters of MP are the guys that know when and how to use all 3 stances.

ACGe0rge
04-20-2002, 12:00 AM
I forgot to mention that overall, I liked your post. It had some good info and should be helpful to all who read it. I just disagree with you on that one point.

ArtifeX
04-20-2002, 01:52 AM
Guys, I've made a bunch of additions and corrections. You'll want to check out my findings in the new Saber Defense (blocking) section. I think some of you will be dismayed.

I'll reiterate that the Medium style does take more skill to be successful with, but only because it is intrinsically weaker than the Strong stance. It's pretty, and it's a lot of fun, but you just won't kill an experienced Strong stance player consistently with it. You may get a kill or two, but in the long run you'll come out with the short end of the stick.

Anyway, check the post again for some new stuff.

Jedith
04-20-2002, 02:55 AM
the stances aren't imbalanced. you're just not using it the way you should be.
i think, the beta testers would notify raven and tell them it's imbalanced, but this is the way it is. live with it and stop whining.

UseDaAgression
04-20-2002, 03:03 AM
I don't think light is useless either... If you hit someone wit heavy then just goto light and finish them off.... and the medium spiecial deserves more credit than you give it... You can keep the tip pointed at them on landing and they really cant get near you. And like said above ^^^ I almost died when u said heavy was the choice of good players lol

Bacon00
04-20-2002, 03:37 AM
heavy stance - powerful, but easily avoidable and leaves the person open to couter attack for long periods of time (thus, it deminishes it's powerfulness if the opponent knows what they are doing.)

light stance - not useless. You have to have good reflexes to get the quick spins and small hacks to hit. Definatly not useless. I use it a lot, and I get a decent amount of kills against heavy stancers.

medium stance - good, but I prefer the light/heavy combo myself.

Otherwise, excellent post. Although you do tend to lable moves "newbie moves" rather often.... if it works, if it kills people, it's not a newbie move. It means that you haven't figure out how to block it/get away from it yet... making YOU the "newbie." If a newbie can kill you with his "newbie move," then you must suck worse than him, since the "newbie move" is killing YOU.

Shooting a gun kills people. Newbies shoot a gun. Thus, shooting a gun must be a "newbie move," right??

Sorry.. it's just that all this newbie talk makes me laugh/makes me angry at the same time.

dkc4C
04-20-2002, 04:00 AM
You guys seem to equate "score" with "skill" which, in the case of that ridiculously overpowered style, is absolutely not the case.

Yes, most people do equate "score" with "skill." I'm sure everyone will acknowledge your superior skill if you are last place in Kills.

Vorax
04-20-2002, 05:24 AM
Originally posted by ArtifeX
Guys, I've made a bunch of additions and corrections. You'll want to check out my findings in the new Saber Defense (blocking) section. I think some of you will be dismayed.

I'll reiterate that the Medium style does take more skill to be successful with, but only because it is intrinsically weaker than the Strong stance. It's pretty, and it's a lot of fun, but you just won't kill an experienced Strong stance player consistently with it. You may get a kill or two, but in the long run you'll come out with the short end of the stick.

Anyway, check the post again for some new stuff.

Only true if the strong stance is using heal, otherwise they just can't strike fast enough. You must agree a medium stance user has a much better chance of hitting you 3 times then a strong stance does even once. 3 is all it takes. With the right hits, it only take 2 time with medium. If someone is using heal however, I will agree, that you have to use strong against them, just because they just keep healing and the game goes forever. But, not always. If the medium stance guy is using drain, he will take the strong stance guy as if he didn't have the heal and again, the fight is over in 2-3 hits, easily landed with the medium stance.


I feel I have to break this to all the Light and Medium stance proponents out there: there's yet another reason not to use your styles. A player can render himself completely invulnerable to your Light Style attacks and about 90% resistant to Medium attacks simply by getting level 3 saber defense, squatting in a corner and facing you. That 10% of Medium that will hit is the finishing move (sometimes) and the occasional swing that gets a bit behind him. I did this over and over again to verify it, and I am sorry to say it's true. This even works against many of the Strong stance swings, although you can break the defense nearly 100% if you get extremely close. That's because the swing's range is so great that the saber ends up behind the opponent and effectively gets them in the back. I actually killed myself on my assistants immobile outstretched blade while trying to score a hit with Light Stance. Did we need any more reasons not to use it? There are two exceptions to this: The light stance backstab is completely unblockable when your opponent is crouched, and the Light Stance lunge move can break through maybe 5% of the time.


Most people use level 3 saber defense. It does not stop anyone from connecting with light or medium once they swing. Unless the guy can swing really fast...umm...wait your right. Light and medium are better then strong. Try fighting someone that is moving. Your point might be true for attacking someone who is away from their computer or getting a connection loss, but other then that, people move in the game. If they are using strong, they are that much easier to hit.

Hiding in the corner is hardly a show stopper for light or medium. So many people try this with me...once ;) Several ways around it. With medium: Just jump, from slightly farther back then normal and slash down. Wack. With light stance, do a roll towards them, then slash. Both can easily stop the hide in the corner and crouch guys. If you have pull, you can also drag them out of there. With push, taunt with your saber a bit, till they try to swing that big clunky strong stance...or any stance, then just push them over and kill them.

- Vorax

Vestril
04-20-2002, 05:49 AM
I just wanted to express my impressed happiness over the lack of flaming going on in this thread, I read maybe one or two posts by immature people and they were just ignored--it's given me hope for Saber enthusiasts!

As for Saber combat I find that my timing is just not good enough for Strong Stance, I seem to have an intuitive understanding for the timing of medium stance, when I let myself go I have no trouble killing just about anyone on a server without taking any hits. Of course it doesn't always work that way of course lol. I usually get sloppy and start thinking too much and get chopped by whoever I happen to be playing, newbie or experienced player... Anyway thank you people of this post for being so respectful and polite, and thank you ArtifeX for taking the time to test, compile, and post this info =)

Ian

Lazarous
04-20-2002, 06:45 AM
My observations from playing multi-
Heavy stance, to me, is more useful for one simple reason - healing (and drain). Light and medium in general get more hit in because of their speed of attack...however, those hits become meaningless as the person you're attacking heals away the damage nearly instantly. This single fact is what makes strong stance seem overpowered. A strong stance needs to get 1(maybe 2) solid hits in and the other guy is dead. A medium stance user has to get at a minimum 3 clean hits to even hope of killing someone. What this means is that medium stance is more suited to 'bleeding' an enemy down slowly, but surely. Strong stance is extremely hard to use against someone with this mentality. In a no force setting, i would personally take either light or medium against a strong stance, because of what i feel is its more assured chance to hit.

I'm ambivilant about light stance. One the one had it has some extremely fast combos as well as the ability to chain the forward lunge into almost any point in your attack (note - switching to walking while doing this makes the timing MUCH easier, i.e. hitting the shift key). On the other is the fact that it is in great part a headless chicken style. Its quite simply hard to move in a methodical, controlled way with this style. I don't think a range increase to at least match medium would overbalance this style in the least.


There is one thing that i believe everyone should note - medium and heavy stances cost force points...a lot of force points. Given that, wouldn't it make sense that the heavy stance(which costs 8 points by itself i think) would be the most powerful of all the types of combat? If the cost system for styles was different, i would have no qualms about completely balancing the styles, but as is if a person can kill a strong stance user reliably with light stance at an equal skill level, that would mean the heavy stance user wasted something like 12 force points (a not inconsiderable amount).

Bearing that in mind, i agree with the suggestion that the styles should have the same damage and range (the length of the saber) but simply have different chances to break through defences. Also make the styles inherent in all characters and make additional points into saber offense increase damage, speed and chance to overcome a block.


Laz

Soul-Burn
04-20-2002, 08:40 AM
For all of you saying that: "I usually kill Heavy users really easily because they are so open for attack".

That's because you are playing with really unexperienced people. One of the big advantages of the Strong style, is the range. You can swing the saber, and if u keep enough range from your enemy, you will never get hit, while you can actually land a move.

Vestril
04-20-2002, 09:30 AM
For all of you saying that: "I usually kill Heavy users really easily because they are so open for attack".
That's because you are playing with really unexperienced people. One of the big advantages of the Strong style, is the range. You can swing the saber, and if u keep enough range from your enemy, you will never get hit, while you can actually land a move.


Or it's because it leaves you open...sometimes. It's all a matter of patience with a strong player vs. anyone good. I, for example, usually play medium stance, and I just wait for that moment where their Saber is in the wrong place and mine is near the right place. Patience is a big key there, and it's unfair and rather silly to assume we're all playing unexperienced people, I've played on a number of servers and against people with various levels of skill and there is no one stance that beats me regularly (of medium and heavy...light only beats me after strong (as in he hit me once with strong, then again with light to finish me off...a clever strategy))

ArtifeX
04-20-2002, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by Bacon00


Otherwise, excellent post. Although you do tend to lable moves "newbie moves" rather often.... if it works, if it kills people, it's not a newbie move. It means that you haven't figure out how to block it/get away from it yet... making YOU the "newbie." If a newbie can kill you with his "newbie move," then you must suck worse than him, since the "newbie move" is killing YOU.


I did say that newbies will commonly spam the Strong finisher for a while once they learn it. I didn't say that I have trouble countering it; I actually gave advice on how to do so. I did say that I think the Light style tends to be used by newbies because they think it looks cool, but that hardly means that I think the style is dangerous and that I can't defend against it. Please refer to the new section on Saber Defense.

In general, I think you misunderstood a lot of what I was trying to say.


Shooting a gun kills people. Newbies shoot a gun. Thus, shooting a gun must be a "newbie move," right??


No. No, that just makes you a more verstile player.


Sorry.. it's just that all this newbie talk makes me laugh/makes me angry at the same time.

ArtifeX
04-20-2002, 11:22 AM
Originally posted by Vorax


Only true if the strong stance is using heal, otherwise they just can't strike fast enough. You must agree a medium stance user has a much better chance of hitting you 3 times then a strong stance does even once. 3 is all it takes. With the right hits, it only take 2 time with medium. If someone is using heal however, I will agree, that you have to use strong against them, just because they just keep healing and the game goes forever. But, not always. If the medium stance guy is using drain, he will take the strong stance guy as if he didn't have the heal and again, the fight is over in 2-3 hits, easily landed with the medium stance.


Use of force powers is a whole different discussion; one that I'll get to soon.


Most people use level 3 saber defense. It does not stop anyone from connecting with light or medium once they swing.

It actually does. Maybe one out of every twenty Light Style swings will connect on a player with level 3 saber defense, is either standing still or moving, and is facing his attacker.

Unless the guy can swing really fast...umm...wait your right. Light and medium are better then strong. Try fighting someone that is moving. Your point might be true for attacking someone who is away from their computer or getting a connection loss, but other then that, people move in the game. If they are using strong, they are that much easier to hit.

Yes, you are more vulnerable to attack while in Strong stance, but not much; especially against Light and Medium styles. With Medium, you have to try to hit them from an odd angle--attacking them directly will get blocked automaticlly a large percentage of the time. Light style requires an even greater angle because of its abbreviated range.


Hiding in the corner is hardly a show stopper for light or medium. So many people try this with me...once ;) Several ways around it. With medium: Just jump, from slightly farther back then normal and slash down. Wack. With light stance, do a roll towards them, then slash. Both can easily stop the hide in the corner and crouch guys. If you have pull, you can also drag them out of there. With push, taunt with your saber a bit, till they try to swing that big clunky strong stance...or any stance, then just push them over and kill them.

- Vorax

1. By forcing you to jump, I have put you into your weakest possible defensive situation, while I am standing still and crouched--my strongest defensive situation. I can take advantage of this in many ways, not the least of which is use of push and pull.

2. Rolls require a short recovery time upon completion. At that time you are 100% vulnerable to any saber attack I would choose to make (yes, even light style attacks would work then). You'll never get the chance to land that slash you're speaking of.

3. It is completely impossible to push or pull someone who has level 3 push and pull themselves and is standing still. You will simply use up your force pool and they will remain motionless.

4. By, "taunt with your saber" I suppose you mean make a few feints to draw an attack? That might work, but it relies on them coming out of the corner of their own volition. If they're stubborn about staying where they're at, this could be ineffective.

Picasso
04-20-2002, 11:26 AM
Again, more reasons to use strong rather than medium if your goal is to win and not role play.




Is it just me or is this game about roleplaying rather then just slash? :confused:

ArtifeX
04-20-2002, 11:55 AM
I posted this to another forum, but I think it explains my point eloquently enough to warrant a double-post:


...I admit it takes more skill to use Light than Medium and more to use Medium than Strong. That is only because Light and Medium are intrinsically weaker styles. You have to be much, much better to be successful in their use. The same player would end up better off practicing with the strong style, however.

You can compare it to the Bryar pistol. It takes a lot of skill to take someone down with the Bryar pistol; much more than it does to kill with the Rocket Launcher. But does that mean that you want to spend all of your time learning to use the Bryar pistol? Wouldn't that time be better spent becoming more proficient with the rocket launcher? That is, if your goal is keep the high score.

Soul-Burn
04-20-2002, 12:20 PM
Heh...
Killing people with weaker weapons is usually harder but much more fulfilling..

Their whines about how they happen to lag just now or "you newbie light stance user!" is such a delight to hear when you know you're just better :-P

ArtifeX
04-20-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Soul-Burn
Heh...
Killing people with weaker weapons is usually harder but much more fulfilling..

Their whines about how they happen to lag just now or "you newbie light stance user!" is such a delight to hear when you know you're just better :-P

I'm sure everyone recognizes your great skill when the map is over and you have 2 kills and the winner has 20.

Soul-Burn
04-20-2002, 12:29 PM
I'm sure everyone recognizes your great skill when the map is over and you have 2 kills and the winner has 20.

LOL!!!!!!!

I don't have to prove my skill to anyone. I play for fun, and this is what I consider fun.

Btw, even when I play like this, I turn up in the top 3 out of 16... (not to whine, but did I mention that atleast half of the people there have 60 ping while I'm stuck with 180?)


Of all people, I thought u'd be the one to agree with me on this.... Well, you show again that you care for score and not for playing for fun.

kritschewsky
04-20-2002, 12:38 PM
Okay, we have two groups of people here.
One defending strong stance and one defending medium and somewhat the fast style.

I'll make it easy. The toughest duels are when no force powers are allowed. In such duels medium and fast stances are the best.
Red stance IS good there as well, if executed good. But if only used, you WILL loose. There is no point to argue about that.
With medium style you will kill in 2-3 hits.
With red stance in a duel no force power, you need 2 hits to kill, 1 with DFA of course, but that one you will be lucky to get in if you meet experienced players.

However, on a server where force powers are allowed, the red stance gets a new meening, you will have to use it more often as your opponent otherwise will heal themself. Unless as stated above, you use drain. The medium stance is also here very good, but it is advisable to try to use the red stance at some point.

Someone said the red stance is better as it reaches longer.
But, that is why players are moving around. Experienced players knows how far you reach with strong stance, and will there fore not be within that reach, but will be close enough to do a quick counter towards your just now missed swing.

To say that the red stance is useless though is very very wrong.
The forward slash needs abet more targeting to get in, but is fairly fast for a red stance, and should be used often, as it is a good swing. Use red stance to keep wild chasers at bay, then switch to yellow for some action.

We all play differently. But, all I can say is that all really good players out there, use medium stance more. Yes it is harder to use, but when you know how, you will be more lethal than an equally experienced player using red stance. I have seen it very often and done it very often. The key is to move around. Some might look at you and think WTF are you doing?? Just volting and rolling around. But it is not without thought. You can perform attacks from medium and blue stance during the most awkward acrobatic tricks.
One thing you mentioned that is good, is that you can change direction in a mid roll. That can perform some real confusion for your opponent and open him up for attacks if used timingly and correct.
All stances are good and usefull depending on the situation.
If you however meet a very good player, you are wise to not use red stance too much, but stick to mostly medium.
And to players only using medium, you ought to learn the red stance aswell, as you WILL have use of it. Even if you only will do 1 or 2 swings during a fight with strong stance, if you have mostly used fast and medium, your opponent won't expect you using it, and will fall for it most of the time.
Do not over use the strong stance, but use it sparingly, timingly and with thought.

Last note, the medium stance 360 arc swing will do damage equal to red stance, is easy to execute and makes you to do that "strongstance" swing in medium style. The reach is not as good, but the damage is, and that attack comes after a normal medium swing which meens it is part of a 2,3 or 4 combo using medium style.
Backattacks are not useless. Flip over yout opponent and immediatly perfom a back attack. It might not hit, but then again it might, performing very high damage, probably resulting in a kill.

[del] Twitch
04-20-2002, 01:02 PM
I'm a big fan of a big bucket of diversity, myself. You know, rolling/walljumping/wallrunning/light/medium/heavy/kicking/
vertical strikes/horizontal strikes/comboes/one hit kills.........

And taunting. And kicking people off ledges.

Like it matters what stance you use: you shouldn't use it all the time. Mixing it up fakes people out....having done this multiple times, I've been able to *kick people off ledges* to their death because they just sat there wondering what I was doing...

:D

- Twitch

tam
04-20-2002, 01:14 PM
whenever u use heavy stance, ur leaving urself open to rolls, when u use medium stance, ur leaving ur self open to light slashes, when ur using light, u got good defnece, but no offence

Vorax
04-20-2002, 01:18 PM
Originally posted by kritschewsky
Okay, we have two groups of people here.
One defending strong stance and one defending medium and somewhat the fast style.

I'll make it easy. The toughest duels are when no force powers are allowed. In such duels medium and fast stances are the best.
Red stance IS good there as well, if executed good. But if only used, you WILL loose. There is no point to argue about that.
With medium style you will kill in 2-3 hits.
With red stance in a duel no force power, you need 2 hits to kill, 1 with DFA of course, but that one you will be lucky to get in if you meet experienced players.

However, on a server where force powers are allowed, the red stance gets a new meening, you will have to use it more often as your opponent otherwise will heal themself. Unless as stated above, you use drain. The medium stance is also here very good, but it is advisable to try to use the red stance at some point.

Someone said the red stance is better as it reaches longer.
But, that is why players are moving around. Experienced players knows how far you reach with strong stance, and will there fore not be within that reach, but will be close enough to do a quick counter towards your just now missed swing.

To say that the red stance is useless though is very very wrong.
The forward slash needs abet more targeting to get in, but is fairly fast for a red stance, and should be used often, as it is a good swing. Use red stance to keep wild chasers at bay, then switch to yellow for some action.

We all play differently. But, all I can say is that all really good players out there, use medium stance more. Yes it is harder to use, but when you know how, you will be more lethal than an equally experienced player using red stance. I have seen it very often and done it very often. The key is to move around. Some might look at you and think WTF are you doing?? Just volting and rolling around. But it is not without thought. You can perform attacks from medium and blue stance during the most awkward acrobatic tricks.
One thing you mentioned that is good, is that you can change direction in a mid roll. That can perform some real confusion for your opponent and open him up for attacks if used timingly and correct.
All stances are good and usefull depending on the situation.
If you however meet a very good player, you are wise to not use red stance too much, but stick to mostly medium.
And to players only using medium, you ought to learn the red stance aswell, as you WILL have use of it. Even if you only will do 1 or 2 swings during a fight with strong stance, if you have mostly used fast and medium, your opponent won't expect you using it, and will fall for it most of the time.
Do not over use the strong stance, but use it sparingly, timingly and with thought.

Last note, the medium stance 360 arc swing will do damage equal to red stance, is easy to execute and makes you to do that "strongstance" swing in medium style. The reach is not as good, but the damage is, and that attack comes after a normal medium swing which meens it is part of a 2,3 or 4 combo using medium style.
Backattacks are not useless. Flip over yout opponent and immediatly perfom a back attack. It might not hit, but then again it might, performing very high damage, probably resulting in a kill.

Very good points. I totally agree. Red has a place when force healing is going on, but in general, medium will rule :)

- Vorax

Soul-Burn
04-20-2002, 01:20 PM
Hey kritschewsky!! I remember dueling you ;)

Originally posted by tam
whenever u use heavy stance, ur leaving urself open to rolls

Rolls do no damage... and by the time u'r out of the roll, he's out of the swing.

fgStratus
04-20-2002, 02:35 PM
It seems a lot of you feel very indignant when Artifex associates "skill" with "score". This seems like the syndrome in many schools where people whine "I'm smart, I just don't try. (AKA I'm not functioning intelligently."

It doesn't matter how "skilled" you are, it matters how well you play- which is determined by your score. If you are the best player out there but you frequently score below first, then you are not FUNCTIONING as the best player. The only way to quantifiably judge skill (read: how good you are at a game) then, is to compare scores between players in a game.


On another note, contrary to what many of you have said, I don't believe Offensive Stance is the best in Force-Enabled games. Since so many of you profess to be so good at this game, I'm sure you already know the "strafe diagonally towards a guy while he's swinging and force pull him, knocking him onto the ground (past you thus not sabering you) and giving you an opening to slice him" trick. This trick is most easily performed on the red stance due to its long wind-up time.

However, Offensive Stance does seem to be the most powerful in hectic FFA games. Its almots 1-hit kill with any swing since everyone has taken a little damage, and its wide swings and long range lets you frequently kill multiple people with each swing in a crowd.

In an FFA duel situation, OS (Offensive Stance) is also less effective (more of a quick-switch stance) because saber throw is still allowed (why do people put 18 points into that anyays?) Hence your long swings leave a large opening for the guy to just back up and throw his saber at you.

I believe strong stance to be dominant in 1v1 no force duels for a few reasons.
-You can dodge just as easily no matter which stance you are using, you can jump/roll mid-swing with either stance. In fact, with OS, you can even turn your swing into an offensive lunge. (To do this medium stance would require that you be near the other player and that he isn't doing an overhead swing at you.)

-No flipkicks. You can't flipkick in force disabled servers, which removes one of the larger weaknesses of the OS.

-The OS diagonal swings (move diagonally + attack) go off (and are recovered from) as quickly as the medium swings, but they do 100 damage and are more difficult to block.

Many of the medium stance advocates seem to draw a picture where you constantly roll/jump/weave around while taking quick swipes at the cumbersome OS charger. This will not happen vs an equally skilled opponent. The ONLY differences between the OS user and you are that:
-He (the OS user) doesn't have to swing twice in a direction to get the 360 degree flank swing.
-His swings have longer range
-His swings do more damage
-His swings are more likely to pass through your defenses
-Some of his swings are slower

But it should be impossible to hit a good player (that is also dodging) by using medium stance due to its low penetration and short range.

Chewie Bakker
04-20-2002, 03:55 PM
Artifex has done a good job compiling all of this information on saber dueling. It's a pity that it's so biased against light stance and favors strongs stance.

:lsduel:

The language used is a little one-sided. I'm not saying that red stance is for n00bs, but blue-stance isn't just for n00bs either. If the manual wasn't so one-sided it would be a great addition to the Jedi Outcast texts. Now, it's not more than an opinion with a lot of information.

:newbie:

Great job, but cut out the biased-ness and it would be ber-1337!

P.S. What's a Drizzt? I think I ran into one when playing Baldur's Gate. :nut:

:yobi:

fgStratus
04-20-2002, 05:51 PM
The conclusion that Offensive Stance is for "pros" comes from the observation that the players who are the top of servers primarily use the Offensive Stance.

The conclusion that the Offensive Stance is better comes from the observation that the Offensive Swings do more damage, are more difficult to block, don't impair one's ability to evade, and have a longer range.

These "Biases" seem to be drawn conclusions and not predispositions to me.

Whether the lighter stances take more skill or not because they are inferior is irrelevant. What does matter is how well you do in the game. Otherwise your choice of using an inferior stance depicts a lack of knowledge, rather than an abundance of talent.

Bacon00
04-20-2002, 06:40 PM
I agree- this post would have been 100% perfect had it not been for the biased opinions on the moves he was telling us.

Really, there shouldn't be a discussion about a post like this - it should just be a place where you can go to learn all the saber moves in the game. I was reading it, but the biased remarks that littered it sorta turned me off. Frankly, I don't care if he thinks heavy stance is for more experienced users - it's not a fact, it's an opinion.. so why is it in there?

It's still a good post, don't get me wrong...

Vorax
04-20-2002, 06:49 PM
I agree that they do more damage and have a wider range, but you are totally ignoring the fact that you are left open to up to 2 swipes by a blue or yellow stance during most of reds attacks. You better make that swing count, cuz the faster stance guy can get a swipe and dodge in, before you even come close to connecting. If the faster stance guy manages to do that 2-3 times, you are dead. Red does indeed impeed your ability to evade. That isn't opinion, that's just fact.

I am a yellow stance advocate, but I do use red stance against red stance players who use heal. If they aren't healing, 9 times out of 10 they are easily defeated with yellow stance. When they do use heal, I win about 50% of the time, which is about right because red stance is pretty much just luck if both players are good at evading. Timing is the skill to learn with red, but that is pretty easily mastered. So, it just comes down to who hits who first.

If you notice though, I am conceding that red+heal is a very deadly combination, with, IMHO only two ways to counter, either do the same with red, or use drain and medium. I only use light force, so I can't say from my experience that drain and medium are the best counter, but it is what I see many good dark side players use against red stance.

- Vorax

jmcdavel
04-20-2002, 10:03 PM
Last I night I did an amazing thing... I had been knocked down and the other guy was a few meters away about to DFA me, and I did the matrix flip up but he was already coming with the DFA, so I did a standing flip and managed to kick him before he hit the apex of his arc and knocked him all the way back to where he started the attack! So apparently if you have not reached the apex of the DFA attack, you are very open to a counterattack.

Also I've noticed that you can jump attack the person after they do the swing and are still on the ground, the insta-kill window isn't nearly as long as some people think.

DannyJAllTheWay
04-21-2002, 02:30 AM
That special move that you do with heavy is know as the "one-hit wonder". It requires no skill, therefore, it is the newb move. With the wide area that it has, all that one has to do is run around with no real plan in mind hoping that they get lucky by having a person walk into it AFTER it has already been planted into the ground. The person relys on luck. No skill is needed. Heavy in general is bad. The whole tactic is: run forward, swing, move back, repeat the whole thing again. No skill whatsoever. Oh, well. We always gotta have n00bs though. Some people never learn.

Note: I am not really a newb, so don't judge me because it says bantha fodder. This only means that i don't post a lot.

jedialphaknight
04-21-2002, 02:36 AM
yeh I agree with danny

If you see people who use heavy its a luck thing, they lunge at you hoping to use it. Now don't get me wrong, its not bad, but fpr a lot of people its the only thing they use, and frankly, its getting REALLY REALLY annoying guys, seriously, I use heavy when I have like 10 health and it wouldn't even matter anymore.

I use medium the most just becuz it takes the most skill, and I have worked several people over and over again just becuz I can pull off combos right in their face, you people who use heavy, I hope you understand how easy it is to defeat you, when you take that being swing, I can double hit you, and your at 10 or dead already.

Ebuchednezzar
04-21-2002, 04:16 AM
I'll start by saying I don't claim to be a Jedi Master. I frequently lose duels, but I frequently win duels as well. I'm in the middle.

It's been my experience that I lose duels to those who counter my actions and I win duels against those that are not as patient as me. I sincerely believe the key to winning a duel is to let the fight come to you unless you are in a desperate situation. The reason people claim countering doesn't work is because they choose their counters poorly; that is, they use Strong Stance (too slow), or slash in the opposite direction of their opened opponent. Also, some envision countering of backing up, then running forward with a huge vertical slash. This isn't countering, it's stupid.

As for DFA, I've been very successful in just moving out of the way, usually in a circular fashion. It's hard to miss when you end up behind a crouching opponent.

Also of note in dueling is slash selection. The more I use my saber, the more I begin to understand that the direction and type of swing I use affects the outcome of the action. On more than one occasion, I've hit and killed a perfectly still opponent because I used a slash that attacked their open side. Saber tactics are a lot deeper than many many players realize, not just the noobs. They get a bad rap by the way...everyone has to be new sometime, so let's try and keep them around and not make them feel like outsiders.

I'm fully aware that my previous statement will have some flamer looking at my whopping 3 posts and branding me a "sutpid n00b".

jmcdavel
04-21-2002, 06:48 AM
It bothers me how willfully handicapping yourself from a stance is supposed to make you the better player. The best players I've seen use all the stances at various times, depending on the distance and the situation. I'm a mix of finesse/"going for the win", so I don't win all the time, but if I ever got to the point where all I did was go for the kill every single time and never have any fun with it, well I wouldn't play anymore. However, there's nothing wrong with winning. I see people whining all the time about people who use drain then grip or any assortment of "dirty tricks" to win. People who endlessly complain about how another person only uses one stance, ad nauseum. I've yet to see any situation in the game that cannot be countered, and if things like the DFA bother you, then learn what I learned: If you slow down and stop the saber ballet, you can usually predict the move before it happens and counter it in many ways. Push the guy in mid jump and he will fall backwards every-single-time. You won't get that chance if you are leaping around spinning like a top though.

As for drain users, if losing all your force bothers you, then practice having a bare minimum of force at all times... once you get disciplined you will notice that drainers tend to think that you forget how to fight once you are at 0 force. If they grip you, press absorb over and over until it activates. Look directly at them and push if you are dark side. But you have to keep your cool and let them open up a window for you to strike back, you can't just fly in thinking they won't retaliate. How many fights have I just sat back and laughed as my opponent just does figure eights swinging his saber around until finally he stops in front of me and I time a left side strong slash to take him out.

I've had 100 health taken off by the acrobatic medium stance attack, and I've had my health at 0 in about 2 seconds from someone who knew just how to time the medium slashes so I wouldn't have time to fully heal. There are a million ways to kill your opponent and if some guy is only using one, he's limiting himself, not you!

*really regretting typing this out at 4 am...*

Reapy
04-21-2002, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Vorax
I agree that they do more damage and have a wider range, but you are totally ignoring the fact that you are left open to up to 2 swipes by a blue or yellow stance during most of reds attacks. You better make that swing count, cuz the faster stance guy can get a swipe and dodge in, before you even come close to connecting. If the faster stance guy manages to do that 2-3 times, you are dead. Red does indeed impeed your ability to evade. That isn't opinion, that's just fact.
- Vorax


I strongly disagree with this. Red impeeds my ability to evade? What fact is this? Do I move slower in the heavy, can I not jump out of the way in a swing?

It seems all the medium advocates make it seem as though the heavy player is an idiot who has no sence of timing or where his swing is connecting or how to move out of the way. So the light/med guy has to get in on me 2 - 3 times and hit me after a horrable blatent mistake I made leaving myself open, in order to kill me? When I play heavy I dont let people in on me like that to counter. If I swing, i'm going to hit you, or you are going to have to run away to avoid it, taking you well out of your shorter range with medium or light. By the time you get back to attack me, I will have been backing away or moving away from you recovering my stance. We are back to square one. If you think you can disregard my swing and try to trade blows with me, its over for you, becuase the heavy is going to take you out.

Anyway, the true stance that takes the most skill is all 3. Each has its uses. I like to start out heavy and play cautious, usually resulting in me getting the first hit down on someone, then moving into medium where it will only take a quick swipe to take them out.

Heavy has its trade off of if you do mess up and dont swing in a way where they have to run or take a hit, you get hurt. But you get 2 to 3 mistakes vs a med guy. You get zero mistakes vs a heavy guy.

DFA Spammers? I hate them. One guy had it down pretty well, dfa then instantly backflipping away from me. I couldnt get around behind him (duel setting here) becausse he kept is guy swiveled towards me. No way in hell i'm getting near a guy crouched and trained on me after that, it is too random if you are going to hit the guy or just die to the buried saber. Only thing to do here is just doge him, it takes a warm up, if you see a heavy player who you know has some degee of skill swinging well out of striking range, hes winding up to jump at you. Anyway the only way i got the guy was when he decided to make a regular jump i waited on the ground then hit him with a heavy as he came down.

Do i have a problem with his play style? No. I found it hard to beat. If you ever watch a server, you will see the guy who just learned dfa missing all over the place adn only doing so so, where as the guy whos number 1 kills one to two people every time hes in the air with that thing.

I mean what style is better is such a moot argument its just pointlessly stupid. Which style is better in which situation, now that is worthy of discussion. If you are just going to condem yourself to one style or one tecnhique to kill people, you wont ever be a good player.

I dont think there are good players in this game yet. I mean really, what defines a great player? I like the one poster (sorry i forgot your name :( ) saying that score is the only judge of a players skill in relation to the game. Who has the top score? Is it always a good player? Hell no! Case in point, the ohter night I playd on a server for 4 rounds. My first two rounds one guy won by a margine of about 10 - 15 kills. I was usually behind the 2nd place player in 3rd. Number one guy left. Myself and the other fellow were close for the next game but he pulled ahead and won by about 10 kills or so, and myself a good way ahead of the other players. That guy left. I owned that server. Was I the best? Hell no. I was like 40 kills off the pace that other guy was setting.

There are no good players becuase there is no median to judge them, becuase score doesnt mean everything to everybody. A good player in my eyes then, is someone who doesnt die. Who wins all his duels, who does it different everytime. He may dfa spam one match, then kick some guy to death another, then go medium for 4 or so duels, then just grip another guy to death, then go heavy style for the next few. Constantly doing things you have never seen nor heard of before, successfully. Have you seen someone like this? I havent. There sure will be people like this in time though. If you want to be one I suggest you learn every style and realise that each style has its place. (except light that sucks!!! :) )

These topics seem relevent to duels only. What about ctf? Is heavy useless in ctf. Is it useless vs guns? No force ctf? Force team ffa? No force saber only ffa? Jedi master? Holocron? A Great player in jedi? Drop him in any game setting and he will kick your ass 30 different ways and you wont ever come close to beating him. That is a great player, and I havent seen one yet.

Sundevil

Soul-Burn
04-21-2002, 11:41 AM
Nice post, reapy!

Some of you are saying: "Heavy stance takes no skill! Yellow stance takes most skill!"

I disagree... I found playing with Medium is the easiet. Playing with Heavy (without DFA) is the next and Blue is usually (for me) useless... Only a few uppercuts once in a while..

You can't say Medium takes more skill, because it doesn't. Both Medium and Heavy (w/o DFA) take skill, but different types of skills.

Medium lets you a few hits which might connect while Heavy gives you a single move with horrible set-up time. (IMO!)

I hope to see someone who owns with the Light Stance, or even better, a person who knows to switch stances fast and use them correctly.

Bambers
04-21-2002, 11:49 AM
I would disagree that the DFA is unstoppable. If I'm ever in a challenged duel and the opponent is using heavy only then just saber throw them. The time it takes for the attacks especially the DFA leaves them unable to deflect a saber. Kick is also useful if they have started swinging to late.

Soul-Burn
04-21-2002, 12:46 PM
Bambs, don't forget many duels are done without force at all... no throws either...

Anyways, if they start the DFA close to you, u can medium slash them and they'll fall back.

If they DFA from infront of u, just stand an inch out of their range with a Heavy Slash starting. If you time it right, u won't get hit and they'll die.

Vorax
04-21-2002, 05:38 PM
Ok, I am gonna change my stance on this stuff.

I am no longer an advocate for medium most of the time.

I played on a no-force duel server for a few of hours last night, I was owned for the 2 hours, everyone was. We were destroyed by a guy using all stances. He stuck mostly with blue however. It was amazing. he was fast and furious and untoucable. Everyone, including me would come at him with red, he was so fast and swung that thing so well, noone could touch him. There must have been 20 people come to the server get frustrated and leave. They all came in cocky...'I will just use red and cut him up' Or 'Medium is gonna be easy to beat him with'

This guy used everything. Mostly blue, but also yellow and red. He interchanged fast to keep everyone off balance. He had all the moves down for every stance. I was truly humbled. Everyone was. So, you should amend the whole point on blue, this guy proved it to be absolutely wrong, infact he proved most of what everyone is saying here (inlcluding me) wrong. It is hard to say what was telling him to choose one stance or another, although with almost every 'red' stance, he went 'blue', which shocked me. I also noticed that depending on the layout of the map, and where he was in it, he switched. He did it so automatically that as he walked around in ffa_raven, he switched stances even when the other guy wasn't around. After studying his play for 2 hours, I was finally able to get 3 on him out of 10. 2 other guys, amazed by his play also, got 1 each. But he still cleaned our clocks, and must have been getting tired of being on top so long.

I have truly seen the first player that IS elite.

- Vorax

Homosexual Ewok
04-22-2002, 02:00 AM
Anyone remember DOOM and the BFG? Red stance will be the choice among new players due to it's high damage factor, but unless you have the reflexes of a slug, getting hit by those power shots only happens on accident if you are a halfway decent or an experienced player.
Personally I'm glad so many people use it, it is so easy to telegraph the swings I can hit them, evade the swing, and come back in for the kill with the yellow stance.
The yellow stance side swing is pure death-on-a-stick. :D

toolboi
04-22-2002, 03:23 AM
I feel I have to break this to all the Light and Medium stance proponents out there: there's yet another reason not to use your styles. A player can render himself completely invulnerable to your Light Style attacks and about 90% resistant to Medium attacks simply by getting level 3 saber defense, squatting in a corner and facing you.

I would LOVE to test this out ;)
As far as I have seen blocking a move is almost completley unpredictable, even with the cursor facing directly at the saber. Red though does seem to get blocked less then any other swing for some reason... I suppose this is good as otherwize red would be WAY too weak.

It is seldom (1 out of 8 times) that your opponent will just happen to be in the direction of exactly the swing you want to do. To me, this makes both medium and light stance pretty useless since you should always control your position before your swing.

I disagree. Often I can get a 3-4 hit combo in with yellow stance that is effectivley a one hit kill. Theres also this AMAZING yellow stance triangle combo, I dont know how the hell you do it, but I have done it and see others do it. It takes about 1.5 seconds to pull off and does enough dammage to completley obliterate an opponent with full life (not sure about sheidls though).

The flaw I see is in reds one hit kills. This makes red virtually impossible to counter without force. The best way I have yet found is to run in, slash a few times with blue, and then roll out before they can finish a slash.

That's because you are playing with really unexperienced people.

True and not true. Red is easy to counter, its all about timing. Attacking after they swing wont work, but rather relying on the fact that it takes nearly 2 seconds to start a red swing... thats what you use.

And as for the guy who owned every one using mainly blue... if you were all using red, then thats why :D
blue counters red
red counters yellow
yellow counters blue (assuming the same skill level for all of course).

Vorax
04-22-2002, 10:12 AM
We weren't just using red, I started off my usual way with yellow, then switched to red after dying a few times. It didn't matter what stance we had, he was just incredibly good. The people on the server were obviously not newbies. Everyone was applying sound tactics. They just didn't work. The guys knowledge of all the stances was what made him such a force to recon with. He did use blue against red alot, but not always and not for the entire fight. He never stayed on a single stance for the entire fight if they player wasn't killed very fast (some of the ones that came on the server were noobs and died fast).

On another note: During the time I was there, this poor got called every name in the book! Not fair, he was obvisously a superior player. His reward for that was getting called every name out there. If someone is doing that on a server, put it to them to stop, grow up, learn the game and quit whinning.

- Vorax

ArtifeX
04-22-2002, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by Vorax
Ok, I am gonna change my stance on this stuff.

I am no longer an advocate for medium most of the time.

I played on a no-force duel server for a few of hours last night, I was owned for the 2 hours, everyone was. We were destroyed by a guy using all stances. ...

This guy used everything. Mostly blue, but also yellow and red. ...

I have truly seen the first player that IS elite.

- Vorax

What was his name?? I'd sure like to duel him or at least talk to him. Got any screenshots?? Let's get some more info here!

ArtifeX
04-22-2002, 12:34 PM
Ok guys, as per your requests, there's two new sections: Countering the "Death From Above (DFA)" and "Getting Up Off Your 4$$ and Back Into the Fight".

As always, comments, oversights, and suggested additions are welcome.

Soul-Burn
04-22-2002, 01:03 PM
Heheheh.....

Medium 3 shots combo simply rocks !!!

I see people come towards me when I swing once, thinking I'm open for attack and get slashed twice and dying!!!


I just wish I could do over 2-3 swings at a time (cuz it's takes some timing)...

However, I was able to do a 5 swing combo with Blue like once or twice but just got hacked :(

LooNBB
04-22-2002, 02:57 PM
All the NooBs talk is irrelevant. Who cares if the player is new with a minimum of experience. If they can find a few tactics that work well, then good for them. If you have been playing and think you are experienced, but still complain that the Newbie keeps taking you out with DFA, well... I personally think you are the Newbie.

Anyone who stays in the same stance through out a duel is NOT "experienced". Each stance has its obvious strenths and weaknesses... You have to switch them up to keep the other player from planning 2-3 moves ahead.

Anyway... I think all this Newbie talk is Cr@p. A lot of you just need to get your sabers out of your hands, stop whining, and play.

hydro[/jedi]
04-22-2002, 10:03 PM
you did a great job, artifex.

i normally don't like to "add to the knowledge pool," because i believe it should be earned through experience so you can understand the application. but i think that there is plenty and plenty of whining about DFA (and for good reason). also, i would like to address the issue of saber styles.

it is my experience in gaming that ANY abuse can be dealt with in at least one manner or another. in jedi knight 2, i quickly learned how important and powerful push and pull were. pull and stab was so easy to use and abuse that it was my primary attack. a couple weeks later, i find out that EVERYONE uses this crap. however, more importantly, it can be countered just as easily and counters can be more effective than a simple pull and stab. DFA is IMO also another easily abused attack. first, in defense of DFA, it is pretty much the only way a red attack can be comboed. this is one of the reasons it is so powerful, aside from the already obvious stated reasons (ranging from range to difficulty of countering). however, i would like to add another couple of methods to countering DFA.
-while the attacker is further away in the air, use pull while strafing left or right. the attacker will go flying in your direction right past you, and you can take advantage from there.
-counter with offense #1 (before the apex); attackers of DFA will go over your head if you can run past them. use this in combination with some kind of overhead slash or something along these lines.
-counter with offense #2 (after the apex); while they are landing (*but before they land), you can swing at them before they hit the ground. keep your range, though.
-use weapons; this method is purely, by far, the easiest to counter with. i laugh at all of you people crying "red is newb" when you can't even remember what being truly newb is. which is forgetting the basics of playing. sure you may think using weapons is newb, but IMO, NOT using weapons in ideal situations is MOST newb.
-force speed works excellent on DFA; run in and throw whatever well-timed saber moves you need to in that SMALL refresh period.
i really dont' like DFA abuse...but i've learned to deal with it instead of whining "please NOOoo!!--take it out!!!...its too hard to deal with!!--where's my pacifier?" (j/k guys...this isn't meant to be a flame post)

as for saber styles...i think its very important that people realize that even though red is INTUITIVELY more powerful, that the other two can be used just as well in the right hands. for all you haters of red: i believe it not only takes the least skill to be good with (i.e. newbs can use it in a crowd of people and get a kill), but that it takes the MOST skill to be excelled with. that is, each swing is meant to be timed and situational. you use range to your advantage, rather than blue/golds "get in close and click" method. also, with red's huge refresh times, you need to learn how to use your offensive saber defensively (*ZooFacts!*: you can use your saber to block weapons/sabers while you are in your swings). just like in real swordsplay, you also need to learn how to be an excellent judge of distances. these are the reasons i believe red is not only the most newb of styles, but also the mostest elite.

sorry for long post, but i hope i helped you guys out.
-hydro

Vorax
04-23-2002, 09:24 AM
The guys name was 'Nutz' spelt using all different colors.

- Vorax

ArtifeX
04-23-2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by toolboi
I feel I have to break this to all the Light and Medium stance proponents out there: there's yet another reason not to use your styles. A player can render himself completely invulnerable to your Light Style attacks and about 90% resistant to Medium attacks simply by getting level 3 saber defense, squatting in a corner and facing you.

I would LOVE to test this out ;)


I killed someone in a duel server with it yesterday on duel_jedi. He was using medium style and only managed to land 1 hit before my stationary saber killed him.


It is seldom (1 out of 8 times) that your opponent will just happen to be in the direction of exactly the swing you want to do. To me, this makes both medium and light stance pretty useless since you should always control your position before your swing.

I disagree. Often I can get a 3-4 hit combo in with yellow stance that is effectivley a one hit kill. Theres also this AMAZING yellow stance triangle combo, I dont know how the hell you do it, but I have done it and see others do it. It takes about 1.5 seconds to pull off and does enough dammage to completley obliterate an opponent with full life (not sure about sheidls though).


Let me clarify. Say you want to do your "triangle" combo the next time your opponent comes at you. Let's say for the sake of argument that you have to hit attack+forward, then left, then back to accomplish the move. Your enemy starts his rush; you start your combo. He sees your first swing as you come directly at him and he dodges to your right. Well, the next move of your combo demands that you move left in order to do the correct swing. Do you:

1. Move left even though it will move you out of range and thus serve no purpose, or:

2. Move right and screw up your combo, but remain within striking range?

That's my point. You have to make that decision every time you chain moves together. You're only gettin half of what you want. Too often it's either Strike or Direction, but not both.


The flaw I see is in reds one hit kills. This makes red virtually impossible to counter without force. The best way I have yet found is to run in, slash a few times with blue, and then roll out before they can finish a slash.


Please do challenge me and try that.


That's because you are playing with really unexperienced people.

True and not true. Red is easy to counter, its all about timing. Attacking after they swing wont work, but rather relying on the fact that it takes nearly 2 seconds to start a red swing... thats what you use.

And as for the guy who owned every one using mainly blue... if you were all using red, then thats why :D
blue counters red
red counters yellow
yellow counters blue (assuming the same skill level for all of course).

Man, I'm afraid you're just plain wrong about blue countering red. It's more like this:

red counters red, yellow and blue
yellow counters yellow and blue
blue counters blue

I cannot stress my warning against using blue in a duel enough--you will not gain consistent kills that way. If you don't believe me, go join a ladder somewhere and try it. (www.iglnet.com)

daviddg4
04-23-2002, 04:22 PM
A true Jedi uses all three stances when the situation calls for it. In my opinion.

Koffin
04-23-2002, 04:23 PM
Originally posted by StAtilXl
The heavy stance isnt that powerful just dont get hit by it :cool:


Nice strategy StAtilXl....
Now if you could just apply that to the medium and light stancec as well you'd be unstoppable.

Wish I had thought of it....

daviddg4
04-23-2002, 04:30 PM
Welcome Koffin.

:)

I hope you enjoy your stay on these forums. :)

Indreju
04-23-2002, 07:52 PM
In general I have to say very good post ArtifeX, thanks.

After reading it there are few things I disagree with mostly for personal style reasons, and I think that it needs to be stressed a little more that your comments are more about dueling if I'm not mistaken. Light and medium come into play much more when you are fighting multiple opponents (such as FFA or CTF games) and need mobility to dodge while maintaining marginal attack powers. For example I can usually take down 3 weaker players through the Light style and an endless combo chain. Since you have multiple people, the swing about works because you can chain the way you need to based off of three targets. Just a thought.

In general I stick with medium style for everything I do, but I like to move between them all when fighting an extremely good duelist. Tends to make for a better fight, and I notice they do the same thing, always trying to play the chess game of which style will work best in the exact situation needed.

:lsduel:

Vorax
04-23-2002, 09:13 PM
Man, I'm afraid you're just plain wrong about blue countering red. It's more like this:

red counters red, yellow and blue
yellow counters yellow and blue
blue counters blue


I did some experimenting with a guy last night on a server. He was a total red stance user. He was dominating by his score when I got there. He had like 9/1 where no one else (4 others) had any score to count of. The others on the server were complaining he was constantly only using the kick and red stance DFA. His argument. It works. No one could really argue with that, because it had been. I don't know how long he had been dominating the server, but I assume a while based on the frustration levels expressed by the others.

When I got up, feeling cocky, I warned, that red won't solve all your problems. My plan was to apply the wisdom of 'Nutz' (The 'master' I spoke of in a different post). Blue against red. At first, very unsuccessful. He got a good chuckle I am sure. :) I am by no means a master of blue, since yellow has been my stance of choice. Nutz uses blue like a Ninja and I was using it like a drunk street fighter ;) The first 3 times I went against him, I was killed. However, I started to get a feel for blue that I hadn't had before. I applied the second principle of the master. Change stance often. My next fight, I went in with blue, fast and agile trying to emulate the 'Nutz' style. It worked 2 clean solid swipes on him. He swung, but I dove out before I was at any kind of risk. I was starting to get a feel for what 'Nutz' is doing. I quickly rolled behind him, while still in role changed to yellow stance. As I came out of my role, he healed. I wapped him with a very nice twist slash with yellow. He jumped and healed again...twice this time. That told me the strategy was working. I still had full armor as I hadn't been hit, and he had been within death range of a light tap with blue. I went in very fast, straffing and jumping about, keeping him off balance. Because red is very slow, fast moving and crossing alot of ground keeps red players from getting a good swing at you, but it won't work forever, this I knew. Again, I went in for the attack. Blue this time. 3 swipes this time, I knew he would hit me, but I also knew he wouldn't kill me and he would only get 1 shot. He did hit me, and knocked me down to about 40 (that was armor gone and down to 40, nice hit)But, it was to little to late, and I think he knew it. While being hit, I switched to yellow. I immediately attacked again, while he was still following through on that damaging strike. A single slash down the shoulder did it. Fight over. His words: "OMG!" The next guy that came in to fight me's words: "WOW! That was awesome!" then "Bout time someone kicked his ass" I continued to play on the server for another 2 maps, I was feeling 'Nutz'. the next map, I completely dominated 10/0. Mr. red stance, changed his mood and even eventually changed his stance...Perhaps he saw a glimmer of what I saw in Nutz. I am sure Nutz would still clean my clock, but I now understand much more about what he is doing and how he does it. Like him, I also mixed some red into my fighting, but never relied on it for everything. Like Nutz, I also know that blue can be just as effective in the right hands ;)

- Vorax

jmcdavel
04-23-2002, 11:27 PM
This is a great thread, I learned a few new tricks, much to my opponents dismay.

One thing I've had great success with is against Dark-force users: Hit them with an initial strong saber hit, this will knock off all but 25 health, make sure you maintain 0 force (through absorb preferably) for them to drain for health. They will be so focused on draining you to get back within a safe amount they will be easy pickings for a single medium slash if you are a decent saberist without force to use (Fight enough drainers and you will be good enough!). The only thing I've seen that highly disrupts this is for them to start tossing lightning, if they dare grip you then you just hit absorb and have an entire new force pool to use for a heal or more absorb.

Light siders I tend to just try to hit with 2 strong hits, because they will usually heal and waste my time with medium hits (unless you can get them in a corner, then using strong is a waste of opportunity.

Never forget that you can just jump to avoid either side strong slash, provided you make sure not to get tagged by a DFA in their midswing.

Jman3ooo
04-23-2002, 11:41 PM
Arti you are a sore loser...

I was looking forward to figting you when you were on a duel server and as soon as you lost you ran.

O well

lukeboy
04-24-2002, 01:22 AM
Originally posted by Soul-Burn
For all of you saying that: "I usually kill Heavy users really easily because they are so open for attack".

That's because you are playing with really unexperienced people. One of the big advantages of the Strong style, is the range. You can swing the saber, and if u keep enough range from your enemy, you will never get hit, while you can actually land a move.

I agree that, most guys state that he is good when countering a heavy user in medium stance just reveal the one he killed was not that experienced in heavy stance.

ArtifeX
04-24-2002, 12:40 PM
Originally posted by Jman3ooo
Arti you are a sore loser...

I was looking forward to figting you when you were on a duel server and as soon as you lost you ran.

O well

I believe you're forgetting to mention that I was leaving after a 25 win streak. I'd been playing for a while--I gotta eat sometime.

[del] Twitch
04-24-2002, 12:43 PM
Except alot of people ARE good at hitting experienced heavy users, as their are experienced people in every stance.....

And what is this "eat" thing? I think I remember something about this "eat" about 2 weeks ago...

Uhoh.

- Twitch

ArtifeX
04-24-2002, 05:26 PM
Anyone have any more additions to the saber moves? I'm going to try to put the lid on this and post it on the web for everybody, so if you've got something you think hasn't been mentioned yet, make sure to post about it and I'll consider it for addition.

Jman3ooo
04-24-2002, 06:05 PM
Srry Arti I posted that cause i wanted 2 fight you....

And i was dissapointed

fitzwilliamd
04-24-2002, 08:07 PM
This is a fantastic post.

Thank you for investing your time to enrich the community knowledge base. Bravo!

Perhaps it is better reiterated: u r l33t d00d! :D

Fitzwilliam

ArtifeX
04-25-2002, 01:18 PM
I've been reading a lot about this so-called, "triangle combo" with the medium style, but I have yet to see any posts that describe the moves for it.

Let's see your favorite combos posted here, guys!

HertogJan
04-25-2002, 03:08 PM
Here's something, posted it in another thread too:

Yeah, light stance has never ben of good use to me...

BUT!!

I saw a guy one, I belive his name was POX or something like that. He could do the light stance special (forward linge) from the air, so you'd never see it coming. It takes good timing, but when you get good in it, it's a good move.

1) Select blue stance
2) Jump to your opponent
3) When landing; tap crouch and press forward+attack

You will learn how to do it soon enough ;)

After doing this trick, I switch back to medium or heavy stance...

The point of this move is that you can't see it coming!


It really works... But I think this is the only usefull blue stance trick!

HertogJan
04-25-2002, 03:13 PM
Oh I forgot:

^BUMP^

ArtifeX
04-25-2002, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by HertogJan
Here's something, posted it in another thread too:

Yeah, light stance has never ben of good use to me...

BUT!!

I saw a guy one, I belive his name was POX or something like that. He could do the light stance special (forward linge) from the air, so you'd never see it coming. It takes good timing, but when you get good in it, it's a good move.

1) Select blue stance
2) Jump to your opponent
3) When landing; tap crouch and press forward+attack

You will learn how to do it soon enough ;)

After doing this trick, I switch back to medium or heavy stance...

The point of this move is that you can't see it coming!


It really works... But I think this is the only usefull blue stance trick!

That sounds like a good addition. I'll see if I can duplicate it and if so I'll add it to the post with a credit in your name.

Soul-Burn
04-25-2002, 06:29 PM
Ok... here's how to do the 3 move combo with medium:

Do a Left swing, but release it soon enough and press Right, then Left again (while holding attack). Seems like u can alternate moves (R,L,R... L,F,R...) and it'll do more nice stuff.

Note that it should be almost immedietly after the swing started, enough time before it ends..

Already got the 5 move combo with it a few times.

With the Light stance, the combos are actually harder, prolly need to press the keys at a more distint time.

Darth Viersaan
04-25-2002, 06:40 PM
Hmmm I found some minor flaws with this post, advice is when you make a thread like this try not to put your personal opinion in it too much, for example you say that the strong stance is "the best" okay so the wording may not be exact but that's what it sounds like, and you're almost making light stance look like nothing more than air...well I seem to be able to kill a lot with the weaker stances...there is no "best stance" people can be comfortable with different things, or all of them at once...

Aside from that, this was a great post ,good contribution to the community :)

DBSS SSJ4Gogeta
04-25-2002, 06:56 PM
[Quote] It's been a while since I've seen a saber moves thread, and I wanted to post a more current list than the ones I've seen so far. Hopefully this will help out some of the players struggling with saber duelling, and up the average skill level of the online players.

I'm becoming afraid that all the saber moves have indeed been found. If there isn't something new discovered or added by Raven via a patch soon, I'm not sure I'll keep playing. The moves that are truly effective and practical are far outweighed by those that seem to be useless filler. Hence, even with every combat option enabled, the fights become repetitive if your aim is to win rather than just goof around.

General Notes:

- All swings made to the left are generally faster than those made to the right, but have shorter range.

- Vertical swings are harder to hit with than horizontal ones.

- Downward swings break through defenses better than upwards or sideways swings.

- Defense Strength (strongest to weakest) - Standing still, Moving, Jumping, Using Force Power, Attacking.

- Light swings do 30 damage, Medium 60, and Strong 100.

- Non-swinging saber strikes to 5 damage each.


The Stances:

Light Stance -- 95% useless. You'll see this style used by a lot of newbies who constantly echo, "I'm Drizzt Do'Urden! I'm Drizzt Do'Urden!". It should be renamed to "Headless Chicken" style. Almost everyone you see using this style will run at you swing-spamming like a chicken with its head cut off (hence the monicker). The swings themselves are little faster than the medium style and do far less damage (about half) and have severely abbreviated range. Anyone trying to use this in a serious duel can consider themselves duly warned. The only swing of any use from this style is the duck-forward rush attack, but I'll describe it further down. The normal attacks are only effective in a no-force duel environment where healing is impossible and you can nick your opponent to death. Because of that you'll see many proponents of this style complaining about use of Force Heal and Force Drain in Force-powered matches.

Defense Holes: behind and right side.

Moves :

- Forward Rush - duck + forward + attack
- Damage: 60 pts.
- Recovery Time: Moderate
- Usage: A good long-range surprise attack. Most will telegraph this move by ducking and waiting for their opponent to come to them. Don't. Just tap duck, then forward + attack. The surprise factor is much higher that way. Still, there's many better tactics than this when your opponent is within this move's range that won't leave you open during a recovery time. Because this is a vertical attack, it's more difficult to hit with. You can chain these swings together ad infinitum. See my discussion of chained attacks below.

- Backstab - (opponent behind) back + attack
- Damage: 40 pts. (?, I think I remember this correctly)
- Recovery Time: Long
- Usage: This move blows. It's the hardest move to hit with except for maybe the Medium style's finishing move, is very slow, leaves you open to attack forever, and has very low damage. An all-around loser move. Use this when you're just trying to show off or humiliate someone.


Medium Stance -- Double the damage, better range, almost the exact same attack speed, and better special moves make this better than Light style by a factor of two at least. This style only allows a maximum of 5 swings to be chained together, but any more swings than 5 are just spam anyway.

Defense Holes: left behind, behind, right behind

Moves:

- Medium Finisher - (opponent in front and close) jump + forward + attack
- Damage : 60
- Recovery: long (special)
- Usage: This is a very unique move that causes you to flip over the head of your opponent and slash downwards at him while at the apex of your jump. It does fair damage, but leaves you open for some time. My advice is to use this infrequently to vary your attacks and to make sure that as you finish the move, turn so that your oppenent is in the 1-2 o'clock position relative to you, that way your saber will be pointing at them. If they rush you, they'll impale themselves on your still-dangerous saber. That's why I've marked this recovery time as "special"-- if you count the fact your saber is still dangerous until the animation is finished, then effective recovery time is shorter.

It has been reported that you can begin a medium slash and halfway through it hit jump + attack and you will begin the medium finisher. This is similar to pulling off the Strong finisher. (Thx, Tam) Haven't verified this yet myself. I will and report the findings.

- Rear Sweep (Medium) - (opponent close and behind) back + attack
- Damage : 80 or 160
- Recovery : Moderate
- Usage: This does a turning, corkscrew sweep. Useful in the right hands. If your opponent is VERY close and in the 8 o'clock position relative to you, you can actually strike twice with this for a total damage of 120 points. Incidental, non-swing damage is frequently inflicted with this attack, so you may get an extra 5, 10 or even 15 points of damage out of it depending on how you time it.

Strong Stance -- All the best players I've met have used this stance. This should be renamed to, "Experienced Stance" or "Thoughtful Stance" because it is the only stance that allows you to choose a swing and move in the direction of your choice. The range is fantastic; as is the damage. The finishing move is almost always a 1-hit-kill and can be launched from a myriad of other attacks. The under-used vanilla jump attacks are also tactically superior to the other stances. Healers and Drainers got you down? Hit them once to knock off their default 25 shields and let them heal all they want, because the next time you hit them with even the basic strong swing, they're dead.

This stance also has the advantage of blasting through weaker defenses. If you've not been putting 3 levels into Saber Defense, you're going to get eaten alive by Strong stance players. The overhand chop is especially viscious (forward/backwards + attack). It's been reported that some have a lot of success with the back + right + attack swing breaking through defenses while someone's on the move (thx, Lord Nodata). I think this isn't swing-specific, however: I think it has more to do with the target having a weak defense by being on the move. I'll test it and post my findings.

Defense Holes: left and behind

Moves:
- Finisher (Strong) - (half second after the start of any strong swing) jump + forward
- Damage - 100-200
- Recovery Time - Long (special)
- Usage - This is the most powerful swing in the game (Maybe. See Strong Back Sweep below). You'll see a lot of newbies spamming this move once they've learned it. Using it halfway through a regular swing or after a vanilla jump attack works equally well; only the range is different. Make sure to stay turned towards your target all the way through the animation as your saber is still dangerous even when completely buried in the ground in front of you. Many have died walking over that subterranian saber. At certain points during the animation it is uncounterable except by some force powers(push always works). Very early in the swing you can be cut down out of the air fairly easily, but the window of opportunity is very short. My advice is if you see someone start this, get away from them, then retailate, or use force push on them (using force pull is a great way to commit suicide here).

- Strong Back Sweep - (opponent close behind) back + attack
- Damage - 120 or 240 or 360(!)
- Recovery - Moderate
- Usage - This has the potential to be more powerful than the strong finishing move. I've backed someone into a corner and hit them 3 times with this one swing. Once with the wind up, once with the start of the swing, and once with the end of it. I'll try to duplicate it and post a demo later. This should be possible with the medium version as well since they're the same animation, but I haven't tried that yet. This beats the medium version anyway for just that reason: same animation, more damage.

Chained Attacks

Because of the way swings are chosen in jk2, by moving in a particular direction and hitting attack, the usefulness of chained attacks is somewhat dubious. This means that when you are attacking your opponent with fast medium (or light) stance swings you have two choices. You can either: 1--choose which swing you want, or 2--move in the direction of (or away from) your opponent and take the swing that direction gives you. It is seldom (1 out of 8 times) that your opponent will just happen to be in the direction of exactly the swing you want to do. To me, this makes both medium and light stance pretty useless since you should always control your position before your swing. Hence, every swing after the initial one is just potluck depending on which direction you need to move in at the time.

Kicks

If you don't use kicks now, start. They're the fastest attacks in the game and their damage ignores shielding. 20 points armor-piercing damage is not to be scoffed at. Nor is the chance that you will knock your opponent down a la force push. Kicking can be done by either pressing forward or sideways into your opponent and hitting the jump key. Forward does a back flip-kick and sideways does a side flip-kick. Extra style kudos for using the side flip-kicks. Many times I have turned off my saber during a duel and kicked someone to death from full health. It's a most humiliating way to die. This is a great way to set your opponent up for a coup-de-grace.

I have a big problem with No-Force matches because they don't allow kicks, which are the only counter against a rushing player in that environment (aside from a disengaging roll, but all that does is drag out the match. No, blocking i don't consider a counter, because it has a random factor associated with it). I generally won't play them for that reason.

Rolls

Rolls are the better of the two faster movement modes, the other being jumping. You can move about a map faster by constantly rolling rather than running. Rolling has the advantange over jumping of better directional control. While jumping, air control is minimal, but you can actually completely reverse direction during a roll by quickly flicking the view around 180 degrees just as you start the roll. The only drawback is the slight recovery time that leaves you open to attack.

Wall-walking and flips

Wall-walking - (Gotta have level 2 jump) run along side a wall while strafing in its direction and hit and hold the jump key. You'll run up the wall. Release and hit jump again quickly to flip off the wall. Simply release to fall to the ground.

A neat trick is to wall-walk along irregular surfaces. This will give you an extra boost up every time you hit another polygon surface. You can almost hit the sky box in duel_jedi outside near the stream doing this. Make sure you hold down jump all the way through the walk if you try this.

Wall-flip - run forward into a wall and hit jump just as you make contact. You'll do a back flip off the wall. Hitting and holding the back key will give you enough distance from the wall to get behind a closely persuing opponent.

Saber Locking

Who wins a saber lock is determined by two factors: who can click their attack button faster and who can use force push more without running out of force power. Try to finish a successful saber lock with a push, otherwise while absorbed in your clicking fervor, you'll make an accidental swing after knocking them over that won't reach them. If you're using the strong stance then you won't have enough time before they recover to get in another swing.

Saber Defense (blocking)
After a very thorough amount of testing, I have compiled a large amount of surprising information on saber blocking. I'll organize this into three sections: the affect of the Saber Defense Force power, the "blockability" of the different stance's swings, and Saber Throw blocking.

First of all, spending points on level 3 saber defense IS worthwhile when blocking blaster fire or saber swings. Far fewer blaster shots will make it through your defense with a higher skill level. Defending against a saber swing isn't quite so simple. Raising your defense will increase your chances of blocking an attack, but equally important is the placement of your saber at the time your opponent makes his attack. If you can maneuver you saber between your player model and the incoming saber swing, your chances of blocking will be massively more successful. This, I believe is why Light stance and Medium stance are thought to be(or are) more successful at blocking strikes--because if you're facing your opponent then your saber is between the two of you, which is exactly where it needs to be. This is more important when you have a low saber defense score, as you'll have to "manually" block most incoming strikes if you want to survive. Think of having high defense as blocking on "auto".

I feel I have to break this to all the Light and Medium stance proponents out there: there's yet another reason not to use your styles. A player can render himself completely invulnerable to your Light Style attacks and about 90% resistant to Medium attacks simply by getting level 3 saber defense, squatting in a corner and facing you. That 10% of Medium that will hit is the finishing move (sometimes) and the occasional swing that gets a bit behind him. I did this over and over again to verify it, and I am sorry to say it's true. This even works against many of the Strong stance swings, although you can break the defense nearly 100% if you get extremely close. That's because the swing's range is so great that the saber ends up behind the opponent and effectively gets them in the back. I actually killed myself on my assistants immobile outstretched blade while trying to score a hit with Light Stance. Did we need any more reasons not to use it? There are two exceptions to this: The light stance backstab is completely unblockable when your opponent is crouched, and the Light Stance lunge move can break through maybe 5% of the time.

Light Stance Blockability - you can block this all day long even with only level 1 saber defense. Someone using this is basically going to have to get behind you or far to one side to hit you with anything or charge blindly into you while you are swinging at them. The backstab is fully blockable, and is oddly moved off to the right sometimes by the block (make that very oddly), but is unblockable by a crouched target. The lunge move is also easily blocked by a stationary opponent, but not a moving one.

Medium Stance Blockability - Slightly more effective than light style because of its greater range which makes its attacks come more from the sides or behind than the Light Style counterparts. These are still blocked easily by looking at your attacker directly and not moving or attacking. The Medium finisher move is blockable, but rarely, because it slices down from above and to the side. The rear sweep attack is blockable but is dangerous in 3 different stages, all of which must be blocked if you are positioned correctly. This combined with the strangeness of the attack makes the chances of a successful block very slim.

Strong Stance Blockability - By far the least blockable of the stances. The oft-decried "Death from Above" finisher is actually blockable, but the close positioning required to do so is not only difficult, but seemingly inconsistent. Better to just get out of the way. I have not seen a successful block yet against the strong back sweep swing. This is for all sakes and purposes, unblockable. Of special note is the overhand vertical swing (forward or backwards + attack). This swing actually hits a stationary target twice and was the most successful at breaking through the "squatters" defense mentioned above. Many times the first hit near the head will be blocked, but the second hit near the knees will not. The backwards+right swing is also very penetrative when it connects low in the animation near the feet.

- Saber Throw Blocking - The saber defense skill appears to have no effect whatsoever on whether or not a thrown saber will be blocked. Even with only level 1 defense every front-impact throw can be successfully blocked using any stance as long as you are standing still. The only throws that will connect are those that attack from the sides or behind. Someone is always vulnerable to a throw while they are attacking. Despite beliefs to the contrary, testing has shown that it makes no difference whatsoever whether you throw at the feet, the body or the head--all frontal attacks will still be blocked.

Long Story short:
- If you want to block something, use light or medium stance.
- If you want to hit something, use strong stance.
- If you want to keep from getting hit by light and medium stance, stand still or crouch with your back to a corner.
- If you want to keep from getting hit by Strong stance, get the h3ll out of the way.

Countering "Death From Above" (DFA)
Also known as the Strong Finishing Move or Strong Leap Attack, this move seems to have caused players more grief than any other saber move. The ease with which it can be done, the massive damage it inflicts, the ability to rotate the swing during execution, and the huge hitbox it seemingly has make this cut one of the most effective in the game.

Though difficult, there are several saber-only ways of countering this move. The simplest of those would be to get out of the way. The drawback to that is that if you retreat too far then you have gained nothing, but neither have you lost anything. Learn to judge the minimum safe distance from the DFA and retreat no farther than you must--that will maximize your ability to counter. Another easy solution is to back away and throw your saber where they land. It's a quick 30 points of damage and they are completely defenseless against it. That's the strategy I recommend for FFA private duels: a few of those and they'll think twice before using DFA again. I would not recommend using this against someone who can heal themselves through heal, drain or by picking up nearby health and shield packs. All that would do is drain your force by 3 bars that could have been used on a more effective tactic. Third, you can attempt to counter their DFA with one of your own. The timing for this is very tricky, as is judging the distance and angle of your target. I have found that if you begin the swing that will lead into your DFA as soon as you know which direction they are lunging in, then your timing will drop you on top of them just as they are recovering from their slice: it should be a duel-winner. Lastly, if you find someone repeatedly spamming this move, you can choose to crowd them by staying close. The DFA-user is very susceptible to a counterswing very early in their execution when their saber is far back over their head. Try staying right on top of them and using a lot of the forward/back + attack downward chops and the back + right + attack diagonal uppercuts with the Strong style.

Though this isn't a guide on using force powers, in the interests of being thorough i'll mention a few force power counters. First, and most simple, using Force Push on them while they are in the air is 100% guaranteed to push them away from you. This may just serve to disengage you from melee for a few seconds and not allow you to counterattack, but it is very effective when in a closed in space where other strategies are not viable and when your enemy is close to a bottomless pit. Force Lightning can also be a big help. Being able to damage your opponent without ever entering his DFA range will force him to either change tactics or face eventual death (you are unlikely to kill him on the first shot, even by using up a full charge from your force pool). The Drain and Grip combination is a winner in this situation, though it uses up a ton of force power. The idea is to Drain them while avoiding their initial swings, then to Grip them once they hit the ground with their DFA. At that point, either complete the grip for full damage, or carry them to the nearest bottomless pit and drop them in for an easy kill. The last tactic is the most difficult, but can be the most punishing. Once they complete the DFA, there will be a very brief recovery where they will be completely vulnerable to being Pushed or Pulled from close range. If you time it perfectly, you can rush them at this point and knock them over 100% of the time. The importance of grasping the opportunity at just the right point cannot be stressed enough! If you go too soon, you risk being hacked by their still-dangerous saber. Too late, and they can counter your Push/Pull or simply get away. Follow the knock-down with a powerful swing and this could win you the duel.

Getting Up off Your 4$$ and Back Into the Fight

Getting knocked down by kicks, Push and Pull is a common occurrence in jk2. Getting up quickly and avoiding the incoming saber aimed at your head is not so common. There are three ways to get up: a back flip, a high back flip, and a kick-flip.

A simple back flip is done by pushing one of the directional movement keys or your attack button when you're knocked to the ground. This performs a low backflip off of the ground to a standing position. The Good: very fast; gives you a chance to block incoming attacks if you stand completely still and face your opponent immediately after getting up. The Bad: you're a sitting duck; the Strong overhand chop can frequently break through your block and hit you once or twice; if you don't get up quickly, then instead of blocking that cut you're going to take it in the teeth.

The high back flip is accomplished by mashing your jump key repeatedly when knocked down. This performs the same animation as the simple flip, but gets some air between you and your attacker. The Good: fast; most horizontal swings will go underneath you. The Bad: not as fast as the simple flip; a saber hit will throw you a good distance, which might result in a falling death; still susceptible to the overhand chop.

The kick flip is like the high back flip except that as you hit the jump key, you push forward towards your opponent. Done properly, this will not only avoid damage from the incoming attack, but will inflict 20 points of kick damage on your opponent. The Good: fast; can counter-attack; may knock the opponent over. The bad: enemy has to be within kick range.

Notes: You are not helpless while getting up. You are free to use Force Push, Pull, Protection, Absorb and many other force powers as soon as you begin to get up. If your enemy is a little too slow to come in for the kill, you may succeed in knocking him flat with Push or Pull. Another Light Side tactic would be to turn on Force Protection as soon as you get knocked over. That way, even if you do get hit with the incoming swing it will take off far less damage. Make sure to turn it off quickly after getting up as it drains your Force pool quickly.

Suggestions for Additions to Saber Combat

- More lunge moves. The light style lunge isn't enough, though i suppose the medium finisher is arguably a lunge. They are the only hope for L & M styles to counter the range of Strong outside of force power use.
- Different moves triggered by control commands like: left, left + attack; or back, left + attack.
- Make Light style not teh sUck.
- Give Medium style more acrobatic moves. One acrobatic move hardly justifies the game manual's description of medium style as including "acrobatics".
- Allow interactive parries to occur. (When opponent attacks) + Back would allow you to knock the enemy saber aside and
counter.
- After balancing the stances against one another, change how Saber offense is "bought" with force points. Make each style cost 4 or 5 points and allow each to be bought individually with no requirement to buy the others.
- Allow kicks with No-Force ruleset.


Last edited by ArtifeX on 04-22-2002 at 10:30 AM[Quote]

:atat: :band: :deathstar

ArtifeX
04-25-2002, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by DBSS SSJ4Gogeta
[Quote] It's ...No-Force ruleset.


Last edited by ArtifeX on 04-22-2002 at 10:30 AM[Quote]

:atat: :band: :deathstar

Holy crap man, new to forums? Think you could edit your post and remove the massive quote? Or maybe even add a real comment or something?

DarthTom
04-26-2002, 01:05 AM
I'll say this, my style of saber-fighting is rather fast an agile. I will not stand still when I fight. As a result fo that, I find heavy stance tends to work against me, I'm rooted in one place for too long.
Light stance, well...I might use that is someone starts blasting away at me with a gun, but I tend to just leave it on medium.

Average power, average reach, average speed. It suits my playing style the bes,t that's why I use it. (Though I will admit, I grumble a LOT about DFA spammers...to myself, I never bitch about it in game or on a forum, this post excepted).

I tend to come out of duels 50-50. Melees of 4-6 people, on the other hand...no so good.

ManGo
04-26-2002, 01:27 AM
Vorax, I agree with you. Rolling around with blue has worked well for me against red. When they miss with a swing you can often get lucky and roll in to scratch their tummy two or three or even four times.

Once nice pattern when you start slashing with blue is to alternate mashing down left-forward/right-forward while holding down the attack button. If you do it at the right speed, you get a *very* quick succession of left and right diagonal downstrokes which at the very least are somewhat demoralizing. All the flashing and "uhhh" sounds from you opponent also makes for good showmanship ;) Hey, you gotta throw a bone to the spectators now and then!

Needless to say, you are very vulnerable when you're constantly slashing away because you are, of course, undefended. That's why it really only works against red with its unbearably lenghty "refractory" period. Whoever it was who said "blue counters red/red counters yellow/yellow counters blue" was right on, in my opinion.

The other problem particular to this left/right back-and-forth slash attack is that if you screw up and alternate too quickly or two slowly, you'll go into that pesky spin attack which always seems to get me killed, or worse, mistaken for a n00b ;) j/k

Useful thread, BTW ArtifeX. Thanks for the kick-off.

Soul-Burn
04-26-2002, 07:34 AM
^^ Agreed :)

But I've noticed doing it with the Medium stance still gives you a better position and more damage.

ArtifeX
04-26-2002, 01:19 PM
Wanted to let you guys know that there are plans to move this thread (along with my near-completed force power guide, hopefully) to the new strategy.jediknightii.net page as a user submission. I will still continue to update this thread in tandem with the page there. Please keep posting your moves/tactics/combos here or private message them to me and I'll make sure they get added into the post and page!

NuGiZ
04-26-2002, 02:45 PM
I dont understand what you meen with a strong stance, what is it ??? Saber attack, saber defense, saber throw or what???
And i also would like to know some kick ass moves i just got some today which is pretty effective...
Does the aim circle have to be on the opponenent or just where the sword is??? plz help me.....

Vorax
04-26-2002, 02:56 PM
Light Stance -- 95% useless. You'll see this style used by a lot of newbies who constantly echo, "I'm Drizzt Do'Urden! I'm Drizzt Do'Urden!". It should be renamed to "Headless Chicken" style. Almost everyone you see using this style will run at you swing-spamming like a chicken with its head cut off (hence the monicker).

To keep this fair, please remove this part. I understand you preffer red, but that statement is not doing anyone any good. It is very much your oppinion and it's simply not true.

As players skills are improving, more and more are understanding that no single stance is the one to use. Use them all. Blue definetly has it's place, as does yellow and red. I spent 2 hours dominating the duels last night with mostly blue and yellow. Obviously if it were 95% useless, I would have lost alot. But I only lost 5 out of about 40+ duels. Focusing mostly on using blue. Stance split was about 60% blue, 30% yellow and about 10% red. No, these weren't newbies (well one guy was..but he was just funny).

- Vorax

ArtifeX
04-26-2002, 03:19 PM
Originally posted by Vorax


To keep this fair, please remove this part. I understand you preffer red, but that statement is not doing anyone any good. It is very much your oppinion and it's simply not true.

As players skills are improving, more and more are understanding that no single stance is the one to use. Use them all. Blue definetly has it's place, as does yellow and red. I spent 2 hours dominating the duels last night with mostly blue and yellow. Obviously if it were 95% useless, I would have lost alot. But I only lost 5 out of about 40+ duels. Focusing mostly on using blue. Stance split was about 60% blue, 30% yellow and about 10% red. No, these weren't newbies (well one guy was..but he was just funny).

- Vorax

I'm being perfectly fair. I have experimented and gained a lot of experience with all 3 styles and have reported my findings complete with quantitative figures.

Let's split up the figures you give. If you made 10 swings of your saber, then by your figures, you made 6 blue swings, 3 yellow swings and 1 Strong swing. Multiplying that by the damage would give you 180 points of Blue damage, 180 points of Medium damage and 100 points of Strong damage. That is of course assuming that every strike connected, and also that Blue strikes land just as easily as Strong ones (Strong's increased range and defense penetration capabilies make it hit with a far higher percentage). That means that about 25% of the damage you dealt was from Strong when you were using it only 10% of the time. What does this mean? It means that when you were using Strong, you were dealing out 2.5 units of damage per unit of time. Your medium style was dealing out 0.6 units of damage per unit of time. Finally, your Light style was dealing out only 0.3 units of damage per time.

To follow that to its logical conclusion, you could have won your matches more than 8 times faster had you stuck to Strong style rather than Light style, and thus been able to multiply by eight the number of rounds you won in the 2 hours you were playing.

If you really want to convince me, then challenge me and you can show me how good blue style is. I will post a complete retraction if you beat me.

Vorax
04-26-2002, 08:00 PM
About the numbers, that isn't really correct, I should have said, I used it about 10% of the time I was online. By far, in most of the fights, red was completley unused. Also by your numbers, it not quantitative if you assume they all connect. Blue has a better chance of hitting then yellow, yellow then red. Thus the damage scale they do, blue weakest, yellow medium, red strongest. Not to be predjudice against red, but becuase I was trying to master blue. Red is very easy to use as it really only has a couple of moves to get used to, but blue can be combined with so many consecutive attacks so fast that you really need to experiment with the right combinations, know those combinations and match them to your opponents style. That is what I am trying to master.

So...sure, I'll fight ya :) I am still refining my style (it's not blue, its all stances) since last week I was pretty much a yellow saberist only. But I feel confident enough to give the 'all' stance style a whirl.

Tell you what, look for my server when you are online (Vorax's Duel Dimension). I run it from 8pm - 7am EST, most nights. If I don't have it up, I am probably working on Maps or off doing the CTF thing (what I really play in this game).

My normal play hours are from 8-11pm EST.

If you don't see it, just play where ever you do, I will try to find you. I have several applications for scanning the online world. If you are on a server, I can find you.

Looking forward to it. But even if I loose (as I said, my main game is CTF) you should still find some others to experiment with before commiting to the statement. Just because so many disagree with your point on this. Infact, if you look through the posts, almost everyone.



- Vorax

VeX_5150
04-26-2002, 08:17 PM
Wining against good players with light style???? This i must see. Everytime someone goes off on a barrage of light/med attacks, I just trip them and hack them....either that or just kick them. I'll talk to ArtifeX and make sure I see this.

7-7ighlander
04-27-2002, 09:27 AM
Good info, Im sure it helped lots of people.
Expect more of this, much more (35 kb .txt!), in my Sabre Fighting Guide, coming to a guide page near you soon.

Oh, 2 things:

1)Good players use all stances and alternate
2)fast stance is great :D

Blank1234
04-27-2002, 02:55 PM
Nice stuff. I agree with everything you said, though some of your numbers are off.

As far as I can tell, light stance moves will always do 30 damage. You have the crouch-lunge move listed as 60, that's probably cause the move can hit twice (apparantly). The backstab move I *THINK* does 30 too, I've only been hit by it once when I was resetting my hotkeys and forgot to go to spectator mode :) The extra damage is probably from the saber 'cooking' you, if you tested vrs a non-moving opponent.

I think the heavy-finisher is the same deal... but haven't been able to really test that out... the move is seriously bugged. The entire animation of the thing is misleading. I've killed guys with my knees while my saber is still behind my head. Doubtful it was lag.

Anyways, I do find it amusing all the people who defend medium/fast stance when there's overwhelming evidence that these styles just don't match up to strong stance.

For starters, you actually PAY force points to get strong stance. Why would you pay for something that's weaker than the default fast stance? Logic would dictate that strong would be stronger than the other 2. No other ability do you pay for, for weaker results.

And most of all, who "owns" servers? Out of all my games I've ever played on all the servers. Regardless of game type, be it FFA, CTF, CTY, saber only, no-force, jedi master, jedi knight, etc etc... I've *NEVER* seen a fast saber player in the top 5, nevermind #1. It's a rarity to even see a medium style rank #1, except once in a no-force duel only server.

I don't think I'm the best player ever, just SHOW me the server where I can find these mystical fast/medium users owning the server.

Blank

Dimitri Popov
04-27-2002, 03:46 PM
If your going to put it on the strategy page it should be fairly unbaiased , so id remvoe that "75% useless" stuff. The artical is great but if you keep it how it is youre basically saying : "Strong is uber 1337" to all the noobs and we will have a crap load of noobs using strong just swining in a crowd waiting for their lucky hit.

ArtifeX
04-29-2002, 12:05 PM
Originally posted by Dimitri Popov
If your going to put it on the strategy page it should be fairly unbaiased , so id remvoe that "75% useless" stuff. The artical is great but if you keep it how it is youre basically saying : "Strong is uber 1337" to all the noobs and we will have a crap load of noobs using strong just swining in a crowd waiting for their lucky hit.

There is no strategy guide axiom somewhere that says I can't inject my opinion into a guide that I wrote. Nor does strategy.jediknightii.net require me to remove them when I post.

I am trying to give others the benefit of my testing and experience. Inundating people raw figures to digest without the quick and dirty, "This is 95% useless," would be a far less effective way of getting the point across.

I am not saying here that, "Strong is uber l337". I am saying that it is more effective if your aim is to win rather than just look pretty. The saber styles are not balanced. Light is less effective than Medium is less effective than Strong. This is the way the designers intended it to be judging by how access to these styles are bought.

ArtifeX
04-29-2002, 12:12 PM
Originally posted by Vorax
About the numbers, that isn't really correct, I should have said, I used it about 10% of the time I was online. By far, in most of the fights, red was completley unused. Also by your numbers, it not quantitative if you assume they all connect. Blue has a better chance of hitting then yellow, yellow then red.


I'm sorry. You are just wrong. Blue is the single hardest stance to hit with. If you read my post, then you saw the section where I describe that the Light style's ability to hit is so pathetic that you can render yourself invulnerable to it by simply squatting with your back to a corner. You obviously have not tested your theory.


Thus the damage scale they do, blue weakest, yellow medium, red strongest. Not to be predjudice against red, but becuase I was trying to master blue. Red is very easy to use as it really only has a couple of moves to get used to, but blue can be combined with so many consecutive attacks so fast that you really need to experiment with the right combinations, know those combinations and match them to your opponents style. That is what I am trying to master.
...(snip)...

Looking forward to it. But even if I loose (as I said, my main game is CTF) you should still find some others to experiment with before commiting to the statement. Just because so many disagree with your point on this. Infact, if you look through the posts, almost everyone.

- Vorax

I'll look for you tonight.

Twins of Doom
04-29-2002, 02:51 PM
aww, when i read the title i was like..YES FINALLY

and then i read it............i knew it all:(

oh well, it's a good reference and it's good for newbs;)

i'm on a school computer right now and can't play multiplayer at home because my modem for wireless internet got fried..........:(:(:(

the only good thing from that was that i beat single player:P:D

Vorax
04-29-2002, 04:01 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX


I'm sorry. You are just wrong. Blue is the single hardest stance to hit with. If you read my post, then you saw the section where I describe that the Light style's ability to hit is so pathetic that you can render yourself invulnerable to it by simply squatting with your back to a corner. You obviously have not tested your theory.



I'll look for you tonight.

I agree if someone is squatted down in the corner, but that would be a boring fight. I am talking about 2 active players. It's very easy to connect with blue becuase it's swipe is so fast and you are not left unprotected for more the a 1/4 of a second in most cases. You get back into defense mode very quickly. You are only open to attack when attacking (assuming lvl 3 force defense), that is what blue is good for. I think you need some testing on that one. Obviously they had to tone down the amount of damage it does, or fights would be timed in seconds rather then minutes.

I had hoped to see you online when I posted this. I may get a chance to go on tonight, but I am not sure...Taxes are due here in Canada :( I am also heavy into the mapping for the WLS JK2 map pack, since the GDK was released. I haven't actually played in days now... Would someone out there like to fund my gaming? I need more time and this work stuff is really starting to get in the way ;)

- Vorax