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PissedJedi
05-17-2000, 03:41 PM
With the release of the Voodoo 5 in about 12 days.... its quite possible that Jedi Knight for those who get the Voodoo 5 will be upgraded visually for free.

The Big feature of the Voodoo5 5500 is its
Full-Screen Anti-Aliasing.

Jedi Knight is a game that definitely has issues with jagggies (those big ugly imperfections on the screen) and bad shimmering effects and basically it polishes off the effect and gets rid of 90% of the imperfections and drastically improves its quality tremendously.

What I want to know is if enough people Buy the voodoo 5 5500 will they pop back in JK and try and see the difference? for that matter will they re-install other older Lucasarts games...Like (outlaws).

And do you think you will?

I plan on buying it.. when its released. But I am curious to see if you are all interested as well.

------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

Ikhnaton
05-17-2000, 04:08 PM
voodoo5 is the absolute last thing that i would buy. If i had my druthers, I would go with the GeForce2. My next choice would be the ATI Radeon, but I would buy a regular GeForce before the voodoo5.

theahnfahn
05-17-2000, 06:03 PM
Even though I may regret it, I think I am going to buy the new GeForce2. And most likely tonight! Anyone think this is a bad idea, before I spend all that cash? I am overdue for an upgrade (I'm running a TNT right now). I have never liked the voodoo cards. It really ticks me off, because UltraHLE, the high-level N64 emulator, runs on glide. That means I have to use those glide wrappers, which stink. Anyone else out there an emulation fan?

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Argath
05-17-2000, 06:20 PM
Most of JK's problems arise from low detailed models and geometry. FSAA will remove jaggies, but I doubt the change will be drastic; in fact, probably almost unnoticable with older games like JK. With so few polygons being drawn on the screen, there aren't going to be many jagged edges in the first place.

At any rate, raising the resolution is preferable in FPS games; it doesn't eliminate texture popping, but it does reduce jagged edges nearly as well and gives the added benefit of showing greater detail. The blurring of FSAA is not something I want when I'm playing an FPS.

I wouldn't even consider buying a Voodoo5 unless its cost drops a few hundred dollars. It isn't stunningly fast, and definitely not worth the ~$300 being asked for it. Of course, I wouldn't buy a GeForce 2, either, but I would probably choose the latter over the former if I had to.

The GeForce and GeForce 2 both support FSAA, anyway. Their implementation (OGSS) is different from 3dfx's RGSS, but offers similar improvements to visual quality. I'd rather run at a higher resolution with my games instead of wasting 3/4's of my fill rate on FSAA, but that's just me.

[This message has been edited by Argath (edited May 17, 2000).]

PissedJedi
05-17-2000, 07:28 PM
Argath.. You know a good deal about 3d hardware technology.. But I believe you don't know all about it..

Especially when it comes to FSAA www.beyond3d.com (http://www.beyond3d.com)


This article explains in great detail the power of FSAA and How all those screenshots you have seen of Voodoo 5's FSAA have not come close to showing the true power of it.
And it explains how 3dfx's FSAA is far superior to Geforce2's FSAA.

Also when it comes to T&L.. Even though I know many here are excited because Obi-wan has been announced to support it..

http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/v5500

At this Moment and in the near future.. Fill-RATE is not the issue...
Visual and Graphical Quality is.

With a Sufficiently powerful CPU and a Voodoo 5 you can get alot of the same visuals a Geforce2 can.. And sufficiently better ones because of FSAA.


T&L will not be an issue till..Next year.
Visual quality is an issue ... NOW!

Especially considering there is only one
full T&L title available now.

Buying a Card and expecting it to last is a fools game.

Future-Proof in the 3d card industry is BS.

This November Nvidia will have the NV20...
how will Geforce and G2 owners feel then?

I buy 3d cards that make a difference immediately.

The Voodoo 5 is the only product in the next 2-3 weeks that will be able to do this.



------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

Ikhnaton
05-17-2000, 07:41 PM
everything that I have read leads me to believe that the V5 will be outdone by both the Radeon and the GeForce2.

I'd check out Tom's Hardware if I was you...

actually.. Tom doesn't have a review of the voodoo5 yet... oh well

[This message has been edited by Ikhnaton (edited May 17, 2000).]

Argath
05-17-2000, 07:44 PM
Oh, I've read all the articles on T&L vs. FSAA, 3dfx vs. nvidia, etc. and am fully aware of the improvments FSAA offer to graphics quality. However, it is debatible whether it's good for FPS games or not, where crystal clear clarity is important for long-distance aiming. I'd prefer to just run at higher resolutions, because that eliminates many jaggies in itself, and I honestly don't really notice them much when I'm moving around, anyway.

Flight sims are another story, however. The jagged edges of ****pits in XWA annoy me greatly, and I'd love to smooth the edges. In that respect, FSAA would be a great addition, but I personally wouldn't use it for FPS games.

Frankly, I'm not too impressed with any of the current graphics card offerings, and I won't be purchasing a 3D card until prices become more reasonable. I got my Voodoo3 for $100 when it first came out, and it still works fine for me now.

I would have to argue about FSAA quality, however. Image quality is entirely subjective in the first place, and both OGSS and RGSS have their merits. nvidia's method reproduces colors exactly as they should be, but doesn't remove as many jaggies, whereas 3dfx's method blends colors, creating a different (but not necessarily worse) image than intended, but also removes more jaggies. I've seen a lot of differing opinions on which looks better, but I personally won't comment until I get a chance to see both in action, side by side.

PissedJedi
05-17-2000, 07:53 PM
I have read every single article on Voodoo 5 and Geforce 2..

And I would estimate about 90% are positive about the Voodoo 5.

Here are the indisputable facts.

Last October Geforce 1 was released.
Nvidia hyped that by Christmas "1999"
There would be 31 T&L supporting titles..

this was the biggest feature of the Geforce.
One title Shipped.

Q3.

now nearly 6 months later.. with the Geforce 2 now out.. there has been only a second title.. released.. Soldier of Fortune.

Only 2 titles.. One using the Q3 engine..
the other using the Q2 engine.

All other titles have not had T&L support.

Voodoo5's FSAA makes a dramatic difference in visual quality NOW. IT does not require the game to be coded around it.

Its enabled via the drivers by a checkbox.

As far as fill-rate issues concerning the drop in speed when its enabled.. The latest drivers have sufficiently increased the framerate with FSAA enabled.. That the framerate hit is worth having the better visuals.


Also FSAA with Voodoo5 works with glide,D3d and OGL.

MEaning virtually every single 3d game ever released in the last 3-4 years is supported.

FSAA with Geforce 2 will not be supported till Directx8 in the fall.

It works partly in OGl.

So that means all older titles like Jedi Knight will not be supported.

I know lots of people who have a good library of old and new titles.

And Not everyone ONLY plays FPS.

I sure don't.

I play RPGS,RTS,Space Combat Shooters,
3rd person Pespective games, Adventure games,
Flight Sims and Racing games.

All these types of titles benefit greatly with FSAA.

T&L will not make a difference with my older games.

Only some future game that is still not available.

Why buy a more expensive card that will be out of date quicker?

------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

Argath
05-17-2000, 08:02 PM
I'm not attacking the Voodoo5 or 3dfx in any way, nor am I comparing it to any other 3D cards. I'm not discrediting the effectiveness of FSAA; in fact, I think it's a great feature. I don't exactly understand why you're comparing 3dfx and nvidia products, as I wouldn't buy either at the moment. Neither Voodoo5 nor GeForce 2 impresses me much, so I'll wait until prices are around $100 to make a purchase.

However, I would prefer to run at higher resolutions in FPS games and use FSAA in a number of others. It's simply my opinion, not an attack on 3dfx, nvidia, or anyone else. I never even brought up hardware T&L, so I'm a bit perplexed as to why you're lecturing me about its near uselessness in current games.

Ah, I missed Ikhnaton's post. I assume that was directed in response to him? My bad.

[This message has been edited by Argath (edited May 17, 2000).]

Ikhnaton
05-17-2000, 08:16 PM
I'm a brand loyal guy... i bought a voodoo2 when it costed about 300 bucks so i could play JK. I liked it.

However, as time went by, I favored the nVidia cards more. But due to the prices, I bought a voodoo3 PCI for 99 bucks, when i really wanted the nVidia card. Oh well.

I actually like ATI more than 3dfx now.

My opinion now is that anything from 3dfx won't be as good as the other guy.

theahnfahn
05-17-2000, 08:39 PM
Any resolution above 800*600 will be indistinguishable whether FSAA is on or off. And PJ, did you know that even though the FSAA is hardware enabled in the V5, it drops performance by 50% when turned on? The T-buffer is a nice feature, but who in their right mind needs motion blur? That also greatly reduces performance. I do admit visual quality is what is most important in a video game, but when it comes down to which video card you are buying you can't even tell the difference. Performance is where it counts. The GeForce2 has FSAA, hardware excellerated T&L AND shadows, it has bump mapping, and it is the fastest card currently out. So back to my question guys. I'm buying a new card tonight, so should I buy the GeForce2 or not? I think it is the right choice for a video card, but is it too soon to buy? I know, so please don't tell me, that there will be a newer graphics card if I just wait another month. That is always the case. Is it worth my money to buy a new one now, seeing as how all I have running my graphics currently is a Riva TNT?

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Ikhnaton
05-17-2000, 08:42 PM
ahnfahn, if i were in your shoes, i would get the GeForce2.

PissedJedi
05-17-2000, 08:48 PM
And before anyone thinks I am some Voodoo Zealot.. read this article.

http://www.somethingawful.com/news/5-17-2000/3dfxvsnvidia/


It sums up my feelings quite nicely.



------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

PissedJedi
05-17-2000, 08:53 PM
the Issue of Geforce2 vs Voodoo5 is this...
What's your processor or are you upgrading it..

Give me that info and I Can give you an informed opinion on what to get.

------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

theahnfahn
05-17-2000, 09:28 PM
Thanks PJ, I actually really appreciate all the info. I just read a 10K word article on FSAA, and it was very informative. But personally, I have seen the affects of FSAA on larger resolutions and it doesn't do anything for me. But it does do wonders on low resolutions. These are my system specs (I will name almost everything, I like to brag):

PIII 500

128 MB RAM

21 in. Trinitron monitor (visual quality is definitely shown here)

Soundblaster X-Gamer

Klipsch Promedia speakers (best ever)

Riva TNT graphics card

And if I do go with a Geforce2, which company guys? Creative, Leadtech, Elsa?

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

PissedJedi
05-17-2000, 09:47 PM
I would still recommend a Voodoo 5 5500 or a Geforce DDR. Because they both are cheaper then a Geforce 2.. And performance wise they are within 2-3 fps of the Geforce2.

One problem with your 21 inch monitor..
to get high framerates with a Geforce 2 or Voodoo5 you would need to have a HIGH End CPU..
Talking like 700 or higher.

Because their are only 2 T&L titles available.

At least with a Voodoo 5 5500 and FSAA..
you can get better visual quality at 800x600 then running at 1280x1024.

And this is true..
And it would be running faster.

------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

theahnfahn
05-17-2000, 10:30 PM
Right now I run all my titles with at least 800*600. Quake III runs excellent at that resolution on my system (16bit color). Anything over that resolution and FSAA becomes a luxury that one can hardly discern at the extreme expense of framerate. All I truly care about is my response time, and this is directly affected by framerate. I need something that can pump the frames. And I am also highly skeptical about your claim that only two T&L supported games exist. Of all the articles I have read, they mention that numerous titles are supported, with many many more in the works. This will become the norm, and very soon. I update my computer about every 6 months (I've had this one for over a year now), and I'm not the one to buy graphics cards every time they come out with something new, so I want something that will support the future of video gaming. I'm familiar with nVidia, every article I've seen backs them up, and all in all this purchase isn't THAT big a deal. Each of these cards has their strong points. But, I will say T&L is more of a deal than someone like yourself believes. Personally, I feel it is more for the present than FSAA. And the thing is the GeForce2 also has FSAA, so I still don't get your point on how the voodoo5 has such superior image quality.

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Kurgan
05-17-2000, 11:06 PM
A bit off the subject, but I really want to try those new "3D glasses" with JK.

I know it's kind of a cheesy effect (basically just overlapping images), but seeing it with some other action games got me to thinking.. ; )

That and playing JK with an ACT-LABS Lightgun would be kind of novel.

Kurgan

[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited May 17, 2000).]

PissedJedi
05-18-2000, 01:00 AM
ITs obvious you didn't read the article I linked up above from Beyond3.com.

There is only ONE currently Full Transform & lighting supporting GAme available in STores now.

Soldier of Fortune.

Q3 does not support Full T&L.
Ask John Carmack himself he will tell you.

The game is tweaked for The Transform part but the Lighting is all software coding.

Q2 and Glquake or any game based on the Q2 and Glquake engines have the same type of support of Q3 for T&L.
Only Supporting Half.

Now if you don't only play Id-engine based titles.. Then All the other games available.. like
TAchyon,Descent:Freespace2,
Unreal Tournament,Wheel of Time,
Drakan,Messiah,Tribes,Soul Reaver,
Nocturne.. and many many others.. do not support T&L.

There is only one game that fully supports in stores now.

This is a fact. This is not exaggeration on my part. Got to any non-3d card specific 3d site and ask them to list the currently Available in Stores Full T&L supporting titles available.

Soldier of Fortune is it.

Read up on FSAA. At beyond3d.com
And you will understand the difference that FSAA brings and why most of the screenshots can even't begin to do it justice.

FSAA makes a difference NOW!

T&L does not.

------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

Argath
05-18-2000, 01:43 AM
Yeah, Quake 3 and many other games use the transforms functions of OpenGL (which means automatic hardware transforms support) but use lightmaps for lighting, which use up fill rate and have no effect on the CPU/GPU.

The list of games that support at least the transforms is a bit longer than two, but can still be counted on two hands. However, since lightmaps don't affect polygon throughput you will still see a nice increase over using the CPU for T&L. My main problem with hardware T&L right now is that no games exist that actually have enough polygons per scene to make use of hardware T&L. A decent CPU is capable of pushing enough polygons for all of today's games, though that will change in the future.

theahnfahn
05-18-2000, 02:20 AM
Well, what can I say, I bought the damn card and it rocks. I got the Elsa Gladiac. PJ, you say:

Read up on FSAA. At beyond3d.com
And you will understand the difference that FSAA brings and why most of the screenshots can even't begin to do it justice.

Yes, but I also said that the GeForce2 has FSAA in hardware. So what is your point? And T&L is such an awsome achievement! People, I just played Q3 Arena at 1600 by 1200 with every spec on full, and I was getting more FPS than I was on 640 by 480 with my old card and everything turned down! It is insane! Visual quality is perfect. No FSAA needed, period. I am sad to say that I ran Unreal and didn't quite get the same results, but like you said PJ, it doesn't support T&L. That really isn't much of a problem for me, though. Episode 1 Racer was basically the only game I loved playing, so all I have to look forward to is the T&L excellerated madness! I am in love with Q3. If anyone who has the game wants to play on heat give me a week and then I will seriously stomp you into the ground http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif I'm gone for now, folks. Have to delete this Q3 demo I have and install the real thing!

P.S.
PJ, even though most games don't FULLY support T&L is no reason to say T&L is useless. Like I said earlier, my monitor is basically the only thing slowing my refresh when I play Q3 at 1600 by 1200. The transform alone is enough to boost performance to the best I have ever seen.

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

[This message has been edited by theahnfahn (edited May 17, 2000).]

Argath
05-18-2000, 03:25 AM
Comparisons between Quake 3 and Unreal aren't very accurate. Unreal was designed for 3dfx hardware, whereas Quake 3 uses OpenGL, an area nvidia has traditionally been strong in.

Better play at higher resolutions has to do with greater fill rate, not polygon throughput. It's the effect of that 800 MTexel fill rate you're seeing, not the hardware T&L support. Not even Quake 3 stresses a decent CPU, which is why hardware accelerated T&L still isn't too worthwhile at the current time.

Oh, and the whole FSAA in hardware versus software argument is pointless. Both have the same fill rate requirements and performance hit. The only difference is that 3dfx uses Rotated Grid Supersampling and nvidia uses OGSS. Both have their merits.

[This message has been edited by Argath (edited May 18, 2000).]

theahnfahn
05-18-2000, 03:36 AM
Well, I will say it again, this card rocks! So far I've only tested it on a few demos, Q3, and Unreal (a very old version). Q3 is incredible, the demos are even more incredible, and Unreal is just a tad better. I could care less, though, because I don't even like that game! I am going to fire up racer tomorrow and break some records. I won my speakers in that racer competition, but I know the real prizes are in FPS, so expect me to win a Porche or something like that very soon http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

PissedJedi
05-18-2000, 10:50 AM
I am Glad you you are enjoying your over-priced G2. I will be able to enjoy POD RACER with better visuals.

And Argath its been proven time and time again.. That 3dfx's FSAA is better than the Geforce's FSAA And it doesn't come close to the framerate hit that Geforce's fSAA has.

And this is a fact.
Every single review/preview has stated this.

For Racing games like POD RACER.. FSAA is even more important!


And Don't worry while the Voodoo 5 doesn't support T&L.. Q3 on my machine will look amazing just the same. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

theahnfahn
05-18-2000, 05:46 PM
I still don't think you understand. First of all, what speed is your computer? If you are running games at less than 640 by 480 then you should get a new computer. FSAA is time dependent by an exponential factor to screen resolutions. With more pixels you have an extreme drop in performance. FSAA is meant to fool the eye at lower resolutions. Yes, it does its job, we already established that. But I don't need FSAA. All of the older games are so dated they run exceptional on my current hardware, and the new games will run exceptional on my current hardware thanks to T&L. Are you telling me that FSAA will make any difference to me now that the min resolution I am running is 1280 by 1024? The human eye can't even discern the difference. I don't need the voodoo5, and it would be a waste of my money to buy it. I can't think of a situation where FSAA would be useful. At resolutions above 800 by 600 I believe the performance drop is close to 50% with FSAA. So where was my mistake? I run all my games at 1600 by 1200 at 32 bit color now, plus I have T&L for future games. And just as the voodoo5, I have this little button I can push that will enable FSAA. You overexagerate the voodoo5's FSAA. I've read all the articles, seen pictures (yes, I read the article on how screen captures for the voodoo5 with FSAA have to be done a certain way), and it looks the same as any other graphics card. So why wouldn't I want one with T&L, unlike yours?

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

[This message has been edited by theahnfahn (edited May 18, 2000).]

PissedJedi
05-18-2000, 06:21 PM
One. I have a friend who has been testing the Voodoo5 And he has noticed the difference automatically.

95% of the reviews have stated once they got the FSAA with Voodoo5 they did not want to Go back to regular NON-FSAA

ITs been proven the FSAA with the Geforce2
is slower,Visually inferior and not as compatible.

At this moment.. IT only works with
some OGL games.. and one D3d title and the framerate hit alone is not worth it.

With the speed of my processor.. In a month..
And a Voodoo5 I will be able to get better visuals then 1280x1024 and still get higher framerates.. and this will work with 97% of the games out there.

This works with Glide,OGL and D3d.

I have titles that support all of these api's.

And the Beyond3d.com article states as everyone else has said..screenshots can not do it justice.. ITs in action that you notice the difference automatically.

Your Geforce2 is being wasted because there is only 2 titles that sort of support T&L
and that's Soldier of Fortune and q3..
By the time other games come out..
With full T&L support..
Your processor will be to slow to push the fillrate for the T&L.

At this moment your Processor is the bottleneck.

Because 98% of the games are not even using T&L. They are using the fillrate of your card.

With a p3-500 its not fast enough to really drive it.


So why get a 3d card that graphically doesn't make an automatic difference... when I can get a voodoo5 that does?

And get a Athlon Thunderbird that is fast enought to really drive it with its powerful Cpu?



------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

Argath
05-19-2000, 02:07 AM
Fill rate is completely independent of CPU power. Fill rate is based on entirely internal factors in the card itself; simply how many texels/pixels it can do per clock and the actual frequency the card runs at. Whether there's one polygon or 80,000 on the screen, the fill rate required isn't going to change.

Of course, memory bandwidth can limit the card from hitting its fill rate peak, which can be observed with the GeForce 2 at higher resolutions. The CPU is only concerned with doing the T&L on cards that don't support it in hardware; slower systems will still perform worse on T&L supported titles, but that's mostly due to the fact that the CPU spends less than half of its time doing T&L anyway. AI, physics, and several others factors require the majority of the CPU's power, which is why you can't just put a GeForce 2 on a Pentium 200 and expect it to perform as well as an Athlon 1000.

However, a GeForce 2 on a slower system will perform better than a Voodoo5 or similar card on a faster one in extremely high polygon environments. A fast CPU isn't going to be able to push enough polygons in future games. Dedicated graphics processors are always much more capable than the CPU for transforms and lighting, and will remain so for quite a while. If you upgrade frequently, I doubt it will become a problem, but for people who keep their cards for long periods of time, a card not supporting T&L could cripple their ability to play future games as well as they could on a T&L card.

Furthermore, subjective judgements like image quality can't be proven one way or another. Some people can't live without 32-bit color; others don't give a damn. 3dfx's and nvidia's methods of FSAA both eat up 50% of fillrate at 2x, and 75% at 4x, though performance differences may be exhibited due to the (I believe) higher fillrate on the Voodoo5. I can give an in-depth explanation of how OGSS and RGSS work, and the merits of both, if anyone is interested.

Some people don't care about FSAA, and whether 3% or 99% of the gaming community disagrees with them isn't going to change their opinions. I can see that you're a big supporter of FSAA, and I agree that it will eventually become a standard feature on all cards. However, I also recognize the reasons people purchase nvidia products instead, and I think that telling them their purchases are worthless is a bit inappropriate. It really isn't a black an white issue; performance is so similar that it comes down to personal preference over feature sets.

[This message has been edited by Argath (edited May 18, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Argath (edited May 18, 2000).]

PissedJedi
05-19-2000, 02:57 AM
Geforce one was released in October,Nvidia stressed its importance as the first
T&L supporting GPU. They said that 31 titles would be avaialble Christmas 99 that supported T&L.

Only title shipped that supported half of T&L.

Geforce 2 is a faster clock speed which has improved the fill-rate But not greatly.
It has the same FSAA support that the geforce one does. Where when enabled it eats up 50& of the fill-rate.

Explain to me as far as over-all compatibility and overall support for all 3d games on the market past and present why a Geforce 2 is worth spending $350 dollars when only 1% of the titles even show a shred of difference!

Its also been proven that Voodoo 5s FSAA 2x is superior to Geforce2's FSAA and it takes like a 10% framehit when enabled plus it has way better compatibility.

Knowing that the 3d card market changes so rapidly... Why buy a Geforce 2 when you damn well the Nv20 is coming this winter?

I hear so many people saying Future proof.

Nothing is future proof.

Not especially when only one set of 3d cards from one company supports a technology.

If your a game design company.. Are you going to focus around a technology that is only supported by one manufacturer?

Or are you going to make sure your game is compatible and runs great with a mutlitude of cards..

This is why T&L still won't be a huge factor till 2001.

This is why buying a Geforce is foolish.

MAny incredible titles are also being released using the UT engine... This engine has always been known to favor Glide over anything else.

Duke Nuke-Em Forever is using the UT engine..
AS well as Deus-Ex and several other great looking games.. Like Rune.

It doesn't make sense to get a card that has compatibility issues with lots of games.

all you have to do is look at the last 6 months and look at the card that has had more patches released just to fix issues with it.

And it has been the Geforce.

Geforce2 doesn't fix these issues.

Nvida has made lots of promises.. and left them unfulfilled.. What makes people think they will fill them now.

It doesn't make sense to buy a card that will be much cheaper once the T&L titles and Directx8 shipps during the fall ,NOW.

Wait till the games are available to enjoy it.

Or as in the case of Geforce owners... you're still waiting and waiting and waiting.

FSAA makes an effect NOW.
Not 6 months from now.. Not a year.. It makes a difference now.

That's why I don't support or endore the Geforce.

Because it doesn't support these things now.

Its like buying an Athlon 700 and running it at 500mhz because nothing is using the extra 200mhz.. its being crippled and wasted while you wait.

------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

Argath
05-19-2000, 03:15 AM
nvidia's claims don't really matter to me; I didn't buy a GeForce and don't plan to at any time in the near future. You seem to be thinking that I am an nvidiot who detests 3dfx and all their products; on the contrary, I've only owned 3dfx hardware in the past and have been perfectly happy with my purchases. Frankly, I think both the Voodoo5 and GeForce 2 are colossal wastes of money; neither offers outstanding performance, and prices are way too high for me to justify purchasing one. I miss the days of $100 video cards.

Again, it's a matter of personal preference and needs. For gaming, hardware T&L is rather useless at the current time, but a CAD user would benefit greatly from a GeForce 2, which is why I wouldn't completely write it off as useless. Likewise, some people want FSAA and some don't. It's not up to you or me to dictate what people should and shouldn't buy.

Other people are just pure 3dfx zealots or nvidiots who buy because of brand name rather than performance, price, features, etc. Your argument does have merit, but what I'm trying to illustrate is that it's simply your own opinion; other people with different wants and needs may find the GeForce 2 to be a better choice.

Oh, I guess I was a bit vague before, but the fill rate hit is the same on both cards; it requires twice the fill rate to render a frame twice, and four times the fill rate to render it four times. Other factors come into play that allow performance to be better than halved or fourthed. Visual quality is subjective, as well. The picture is different depending on whether you use RGSS or OGSS, but some people prefer the former over the latter, and vise versa. RGSS does a better job at eliminating jaggies, so in that respect, 3dfx's method is more capable.

[This message has been edited by Argath (edited May 19, 2000).]

theahnfahn
05-19-2000, 04:14 AM
*sigh*

You still don't get it PJ. I've looked at FSAA on resolutions above 640 by 480 and it does nothing for me. I will never play a game on that resolution. If it comes to that point, I will buy a new processor. I was running on a TNT, so this purchase was a bit different for me than for someone with a V3. The most rediculous thing I have heard you say, over and over, is that it is stupid to buy a GeForce2 when NV20 is out (pick your date). How lame is that! That is like me saying "PJ, don't buy the Voodoo5 because the Voodoo6 will be out ..." See my point? There is always something better, I've waited a year, and I bought a top of the line card. It runs everything I have at 1600 by 1200 and 32 bit color with excellent framerate. Nearly all further games will support T&L, so I opted to go with a card that would stand strong in the future as opposed to a card that would weaken out because it didn't have T&L and could only rely on FSAA to spruce up low resolutions. You keep saying "It has been proven that Voodoo5 FSAA is superior to GeForce FSAA". I've read more articles than you, no doubt, and I have not seen this to be the case. And even if it was, I DON'T USE FSAA! My preference is to run at the highest resolution and framerate. No tests can be run, nothing can be said by any website reviewer, to say my opinion is wrong for me. But I want you to understand my view towards you and your choices. I think the Voodoo5 is a great card. It seems very close to the GeForce2, and for my purposes it would have done about the same. I went to the store, I saw the Elsa Gladiac was in stock whereas the Voodoo5 wasn't, so I made my choice. I hardly consider it to be a bad choice, in much the same way I hardly consider you wanting to purchase a Voodoo5 to be a bad choice.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

PissedJedi
05-19-2000, 10:53 AM
You made a bad choice because you overpayed for something that won't see its MOST important feature being used till another 8-9months. Secondly you should have waited till the Voodoo5's hit the stores.. in 7 days and this would have sparked a price war causing it to be cheaper.

Think with your head when it comes to your money.

So you decided to be the first on your block to own the Geforce2. Thanks for being the guinea pig.

If you had waited 6 other companies would have had their geforce2s out.. with better configurations.. better clock speeds..
Better drivers... And Better pricings.

When I bought my current Tnt2ultra.. I didn't buy the first one that hit the store.
That's a no no. I waited till there was sufficient competition among oems to allow the price point to drop a little.

And then I Got it. And saved good money too.

------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

theahnfahn
05-19-2000, 05:09 PM
How many graphics cards have you had now? How often do you upgrade? Like I said before, it has been over a year since I last purchased a graphics card. I spend just as much money as those who buy them every 3 months when they are cheep. I just save a few trips to the store. I'm leaving on a two week vacation in June, and I didn't want to wait. So I'm impatient, who cares?

I do think with my head when it comes to money. I'm only 18 and I have enough money for a down-payment on a house. I earned enough money for that graphics card just working for a week. May I ask you a question? How long are you going to wait to buy the Voodoo5? The day it comes out? Or are you going to wait a month and then buy it? I might as well say you are stupid for doing that because in two months it will be even cheaper.

The card I bought does affect me NOW. I just purchased Q3, and won't play much else for at least a month (there will be a few games here and there). OH, I almost forgot to tell you. FSAA on the GeForce 2 is very helpful. I tried it out last night. I can't even see a performance difference with it on even the highest resolution, and I can't figure out why. But it does do great, even on 800 by 600. Anything higher and I really can't tell it is on, though. All in all I think it was well worth the money and the wait, so why do you care? You should be happy because I'm happy. And when you get the Voodoo 5, I'll be happy because you are happy. Get it?

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

PissedJedi
05-19-2000, 05:43 PM
I Won't be buying it right away.. I will be buying around the same time I get the New Amd Thunderbird

I will most likely get the

Amd Thunderbird 800
Abit K7100 motherboard
256s PC133 ram

And Either... a Voodoo 5500 or if I get a fatter Commission check.. I will get the Voodoo 5 6000.. I might and I mean seriouslyl I might get it to see a huge difference...

Because the Voodoo 5 6000 will be the most powerful full-featured 3d card available.

And the only card that can drive FSAA with the speeds at higher resolutions..

I might do it.. just to see a huge difference immediately.. In all my games..
Not just Q3.

Q3 is great.. But damn I want all my games rocking.

I don't play only one.

------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

Argath
05-19-2000, 08:02 PM
I hope the price of the Voodoo5 6000 drops a lot before you purchase one. ~$600 is way too much to ask for a video card that's still going to be obsolete within months; I could upgrade most of the rest of my system for the same amount of money. Of course, I haven't played many games besides Tribes lately, and even that is a rare occurance (rebooting to Windows is too much of a hassle), so I suppose my perspective on the worth of hardware would be a bit different.

PissedJedi
05-19-2000, 08:22 PM
Ah your enjoying Linux right?

Well my friend.. I have one upped you..

When my new system is built..

I will be running 4 oses.


Windows 98
Windows 2000
The best version of Linux I pick
and Beos Pro.

MY favorite at this moment is Beos Pro.
IT boots in less then 15 seconds. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

theahnfahn
05-19-2000, 10:44 PM
I just don't get it. I keep telling you the graphics card I have runs ALL the games I have at the FULL resolution, with or without FSAA, at a very playable speed. About the only thing I see differently between the GeForce 2 and the Voodoo 5 is that the GeForce has T&L coupled with per-pixel shading. You keep pressing that you want your games to look good NOW, but the GeForce also has FSAA. You dismiss it like it isn't even there. Have you even seen the two cards FSAA? I don't mean to be rude, and I have never said the GeForce would be a better option for you, but why can't you see that the GeForce basically has every option the Voodoo 5 has, plus more? Granted, the GeForce may have a slightly lower performance when it comes to FSAA, but even that is pointless to me because I have personally seen hardware FSAA in action whereas you have not. I wager when you get the Voodoo 5 you won't even turn the FSAA on when you run games at above 800 by 600. Plus, by the time you do get the Voodoo 5 T&L would have arrived like you predicted and then you would really be shooting yourself in the foot. Even if a decent handful of games aren't to support T&L until six months from now, won't you be in a bad situation unless you buy another graphics card when the time arrives? All I am saying is that my purchase made sense, considering what I had before was a TNT. I would seriously try to keep anyone from buying a GeForce 2 or Voodoo 5 if they had anything greater than that already in their system. The performance wouldn't be as noticeable as it is in my case.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

PissedJedi
05-19-2000, 11:38 PM
Compatibility is another issue..
Geforces FSAA does not work with 99% of the 3d games available now.

Having to wait for better drivers? Directx8..
No Glide.. support for older titles..
Slower FSAA support,Visual quality not as good.

And I have seen what FSAA can do.
And trust me.. I damn well know the difference.

Anand of Anandtech.com admitted today that for those who want the best FSAA and compatibility.. He recommends the Voodoo 5.


------------------
Why am I a pissed jedi?
Simple. The Star Wars trilogy is
still not on DVD!! And JK Still doesn't have
Dedicated Server Support! GRR

theahnfahn
05-20-2000, 12:43 AM
From the nVidia website:

Question:
How difficult is it for developers to take advantage of anti-aliasing?

Answer:
Full scene anti-aliasing is completely transparent to applications; end users can simply enable it with the NVIDIA control panel and experience FSAA in any title.

Question:
Is the Microsoft® DX7 API required to take advantage of GeForce2 GTS per-pixel shading and anti-aliasing features?

Answer:
Yes, GeForce2 GTS's advanced features require DX7 or OpenGL.

Question:
How does NVIDIA's anti-aliasing compare with 3dfx's?

Answer:
3dfx's anti-aliasing requires multiple VSA-100 chips to even begin to get any anti-aliasing benefits. The GeForce2 GTS architecture supports full-scene anti-aliasing on a single chip, continuing NVIDIA's tradition of enabling industry leading features and complete implementations on a single chip. Additionally, the 3dfx's approach of relying on multiple chips with independent frame buffers faces additional storage challenges, as textures are replicated across chips, chewing up valuable storage. A 64MB GeForce2 GTS video card delivers a full 64MB solution to the end-user, unlike the Voodoo5 6000, whose 128MB video card is only 54.5 MB of effective memory.

Question:
Which companies are developing games to take advantage of GeForce2 GTS transform and lighting engines and other advanced features?

Answer:
Electronic Arts, Interplay, Microsoft and over 75 others.

Where did you hear that DX8 is needed for FSAA?

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Argath
05-20-2000, 12:46 AM
theahnfahn,

The picture quality of FSAA is different between the cards; FSAA is nothing new, and an abundance of information is available on the different benefits of the RGSS and OGSS FSAA methods. OGSS reproducs textures more reliably because it only works with the original pixels, whereas RGSS creates a new pixel blending the colors of four together. It doensn't mean either looks bad, but RGSS also has the benefit of removing more jaggies, which is why a lot of people say it looks better. Jaggie-wsie, I've seen 4x OGSS referred to as "3x RGSS," as it is considered to be between 3dfx's 2x and 4x FSAA. Of course, you should do a side by side comparison yourself to see if you find one superior to the other.

PissedJedi,

Yeah, I have Slackware 7, Windows 98 SE, and WIndows 2000 installed right now. I haven't even booted into either version of Windows in several weeks, let alone used them extensively for quite a few months. Linux is just more customizable, and, consequently, easier to use when you know what you're doing. Bootup is much quicker, averaging about 10-25 seconds, comparable to at least twice that for Windows.

A friend of mine has Be, and it is a neat little OS. It's just too bad that the compatibility is even more nonexistant than with Linux. In the future, I may consider installing it myself, but I think one OS that's incompatible with 99% of programs available is enough for now. Linux will conquer, Be can go fsck itself! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif