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View Full Version : Falling to your death in a multiplayer game


Essobie
04-22-2002, 11:42 PM
I’ve seen a great number of multiplayer first person shooters, and it never stops to amaze me that game designers (specifically mappers) find joy in having players kill themselves accidentally (and instantly) by making a false step. Or more relevant to a discussion about Jedi Knight 2 where a “false step” can be forced on you (pun intended) by the simple process of someone looking in your general direction while you are in mid jump, and doing either a Force Push or a Force Pull.

Multiplayer conflict, from deathmatch to CTF centers around players killing each other to achieve a goal (either more points or more captures or more whatever). In what way does anyone gain any satisfaction in killing someone by simply dropping someone off a ledge? Why is it even in the game, and moreso, why is it encouraged by awarding POINTS for this?

I would get more satisfaction from doing lethal damage to my opponents than I would if I merely had to wait until someone goes anywhere near the edge of a drop, and then flick my mousewheel up in their general direction.

From lava you can’t get out of in Quake, to “space maps” in Quake 3, to what we have now in the 3 foot wide catwalks on Nar Shadaa in Jedi Knight 2, time and time again, designers think it is cute and humorous to spend the majority of the game watching people fall, rather than watching people have interesting confrontations dealing with agility, speed, and aim.

On maps that do not include insta-death scenarios (especially setups that take up the majority of the map), I find multiplayer JK2 exhilarating and very enjoyable. There is a mix of balance based on what weapons are available, the environment, and force powers. The game is fast paced and exciting. You can spend 100% of the time worried about what your opponents are doing, and adjust your playstyle accordingly.

The moment that most of your attention must be on where you are walking exactly INSTEAD of what your opponents are up to is when the gameplay grinds to screeching halt, turning the match into the FPS equivalent of a pillow fight. What may have been placed in the game as “fleeting, short-lived fun” for the folks that enjoy listening to wails of falling foes, is basically an extremely shallow excuse for gameplay.

I’m interested to know if organized leagues, tournaments, and competitions are going to keep maps with lots of deadly vertical drops in their map rotation, and if so, why?

Essobie

Saberwolf
04-23-2002, 12:01 AM
I think your being a little harsh on the developers.

While I agree that the somewhat disturbingly sadistic trend of players to put the drop on other players gets extremely annoying, it is not so much a major fault in the gameplay as in the maps. Obviously, this type of thing only becomes a major factor in maps with lots of nasty deep holes thrown about, i.e. bespin shafts, and nar shadda streets. Infact, I've played on servers where people leave when one of those aforemented maps comes up.

(just a quick thought from a forum newbie)

Darthtoast
04-23-2002, 12:13 AM
One reason they might have used the Nar Shaddaa levels is because they already made an SP level for it, so why not include it in MP? It's another map to play and gives some variation.
It IS annoying to be pushed and pulled into oblivion, but that's what you get for playing the maps with drops. No one's forcing you to play them. I think that you just have to get used to looking around before jumping in levels like those.

Essobie
04-23-2002, 12:18 AM
That's the point... there is a reason why people leave servers when those maps come around: they aren't fun to play on.

As I said, it's more specifically the mappers that create the environements that I don't think makes good gameplay, but if you push someone and they immediately fall to their death, you get a frag. THAT isn't the mappers doing that.

Most of all, I'm wondering of the competitive aspect of the JK2 community is going to filter these annoying maps out during their competition. From the very FEW Q3CTF ladder games I was involved in, CTF4 (that space CTF map) was never used in competition because the majority of the deaths in games on that map were from falling and not from getting shot.

Essobie

Essobie
04-23-2002, 12:21 AM
Originally posted by Darthtoast
One reason they might have used the Nar Shaddaa levels is because they already made an SP level for it, so why not include it in MP? It's another map to play and gives some variation.
It IS annoying to be pushed and pulled into oblivion, but that's what you get for playing the maps with drops. No one's forcing you to play them. I think that you just have to get used to looking around before jumping in levels like those.

I am used to looking around before jumping... jumping around by myself is simple. It's the ease of which my opponents can have their way with me while I'm doing the jumping is the problem.

And without a doubt, I'm not going to be playing on those maps any more.

I totally agree with you in that they included Nar Shadaa because they already had the .map lying around to make a few minor MP changes to create a new map. But there is also a CTF style map with the same problems that center around big drops... including around the flags on both ends. That map isn't in single player anywhere.

Essobie

TheJackal
04-23-2002, 12:27 AM
what. you dont like the sound of your enemies' screaming when he's falling those endless pits that seem to sprout up everywhere in the StarWars universe?

I like it but I dont do it while they are in a saber battle with someone else nor when they are not engaged with me in combat.

as for that CTF you last refered to is called CTF_Bespin I think.

it's simple. DONT jump. and for that flag in the middle of that ditch. Simple. do the staff jump to jump quite low ONTO the platform with the flag (you can only achieve this with good timing) and then run out right away threw the platform's entrance. if you do it right its impossible for them to touch you. you're moving to fast for them to target you + force push you.

of course there's allways that lucky guy who does push you.

Jeff 42
04-23-2002, 12:30 AM
I find it extremely fun to send people flying to their deaths, and I don't have a problem with other people doing it to me from time to time. It adds another interesting element to gameplay. You have to be aware of where other people are who might be able to push you off. It's especially fun when someone tries to grip you off a ledge, but you turn the tables and send him to his doom as well--or even better, send him flying and manage to stay on the ledge yourself. My favorite MP map in the game is Nar Shaddaa Streets, and my favorite for CTF are Bespin Exhaust Shafts and Warring Factions. I guess it's just a matter of personal preference, just like some people don't like playing with guns.

Pvt_Dancer
04-23-2002, 12:53 AM
I like playing on levels with drops. Not only is occasionally fun to choke another player into the void... I think its thrilling and epic to do battle on the verge of tumbling into a precipice where one false jump or step will prove fatal.

You could always play only on maps that don't have these drop offs... or play on them in areas where there are no drop offs... Even in Nar Shaada there are a few spots where you could hide out and fight reasonably safely... if thats your bag.

CBrate
04-23-2002, 02:27 AM
I don't mind heights. Bespin, whilst being notorious for such deaths seems designed around running the catwalks and quickly dispatching any opposition on your way to the flag. It is quick, fun and full of action. Sabre-swishing is secondary to the objective here and if you want in-depth sabre techniques, reevaluate your preference for CTF.

Darth Abbadon
04-23-2002, 03:37 AM
I enjoy the Nar Shadaa maps as well. I find it quite gratifying to hurl the people who think force absorb is the end all of protection to their doom. (Most especially the flag runners in CTF that use it.) I also find it quite amusing to knock off the drain and choke kiddies before they even get in range to use their powers.

Wake
04-23-2002, 04:00 AM
all whiners should be killed ... play a different game if you dont like it

Phr00t
04-23-2002, 11:39 AM
I like the Nar Shaddaa Maps. I've dueled a clan member across the entire map, starting down where the two pits were and forcing him to follow me everywhere, while still fighting. Running backwards, attacking and jumping over ledges requires quite some knowledge of the map to perform well. It's fun when you get it, and for that reason, I can live with the Push/Pullers.

Hubris
04-23-2002, 11:45 AM
I've always hated maps with lava, bottomless pits, etc, but I think it's pretty well done in JK2 due to the level of control you have over it. Getting knocked to your doom is generally your fault once you know how to keep it in control.

As for it immensely limiting you, I don't agree, I've done and seen other folks run CTF_ns_streets the whole way backwards with the flag.

I would have to say though, I like maps where it's a feature of a greater map, not the sole feature of the map. CTF_Bespin for example really has nothing more going for it besides the bottomless pits, the map otherwise is really quite terrible from a gameplay and design perspective, very one dimensional. Imagine Bespin without the pits to illustrate my point, it would be garbage.

Whereas CTF_Streets it really adds to the map in my opinion. Remove the pits and the level is still quite good, the addition of the pits just accentuates it.

Pain
04-23-2002, 12:01 PM
Those maps aren't the greatest, but they are still pretty fun to play. There have been a few times when I was watching some people fighting on one of the platforms and someone would grip and attempt to throw them to their death, and right before they fall i would pull them back and laugh while the guy who would have died killed his oppenent. to me thats entertainment :)

sunsetrider
04-23-2002, 01:49 PM
For Nar Shadda, that is a rather expansive map that you can suit and adopt a different approach to counter all the deaths by falling off the ledge. Absorb is one thing to use in trying to negate the effect of either grip or push, but the ranged attacks are a boon for this map. It is rather effortless to use a guided rocket to send them flying off as well.

Pedro The Hutt
04-23-2002, 02:09 PM
Originally posted by Wake
all whiners should be killed ... play a different game if you dont like it
And what about people who can't live with other people having a different opinion than theirs? ^_~


Anywho, I agree on the getting points for pushing someone off a cliff thing. Back in the days of JK you lost a point yourself if you fell to your death ^.^ Not the one that pushed you getting a point. Bleh they should at least detract points for light siders using it lol, a light Jedi isn't supposed to be cruel/mean/unfair and push his opponent of a cliff hehe. Anywho.. it should go back like JK in that department. But besides that. biiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiig thumbs up to Raven for making a damn fun game :D

Prodigal
04-23-2002, 04:00 PM
I really like the 'rules' of this game, the danger of being manipulated with force while airborne, attacking, rolling, ect really adds an extra factor to the game...if that wernt implemented there would be little to no danger for someone grabbing the flag on NS, force speeding and strafe jumping to safety (NOt that thats not still doable even with the restrictions). All this does is cause you to become a smarter player.

When I first started playing on NS I did fall off ledges, miss jumps and get pushed off pretty often, but once you get used to the movement and the flow of the game you can execute some pretty cool manuevers. I think it adds a needed third dimention to the usual jump around and fire gameplay that most games present.




Prodigal

Peace.

LooNBB
04-23-2002, 07:50 PM
Everytime I "throw" someone " to their Doom" I just laugh and laugh... It NEVER gets old for me :laughing:

CBrate
04-23-2002, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by LooNBB
Everytime I "throw" someone " to their Doom" I just laugh and laugh... It NEVER gets old for me :laughing:

I wonder if I can wipe that smile off your face by pulling your over as well in true "You're coming with me" style?

Jiro Kage
04-23-2002, 08:50 PM
I disagree with you completely.

I think it fits well into the Star Wars universe - endless pits of death are everywhere. Yes, it is kinda cheap how you can be so easily gripped and tossed, but that lends another aspect to the game. A guy with saber out approaches you in a teamgame on nar shadda, what do you do? You can fight him with saber and risk getting tossed off, or blast him with something and knock him off. Or, you get tossed, remember who he is and dont let it happen again.

I think that the ability to pitch enemies off a ledge is an excellent addition. However, I think you should be able to "catch" the force push or pull in the air like you can when you are standing.

The point is not to jump when an enemy is in range, or avoid getting close enough that they can grip, or if they are grip monkeys then learn when to switch weapons or use something else against them.

NewBJedi
04-23-2002, 10:19 PM
Originally posted by Essobie
I’ve seen a great number of multiplayer first person shooters, and it never stops to amaze me that game designers (specifically mappers) find joy in having players kill themselves accidentally (and instantly) by making a false step. Or more relevant to a discussion about Jedi Knight 2 where a “false step” can be forced on you (pun intended) by the simple process of someone looking in your general direction while you are in mid jump, and doing either a Force Push or a Force Pull.


Never played Quake 3 or Tribes, huh?



Multiplayer conflict, from deathmatch to CTF centers around players killing each other to achieve a goal (either more points or more captures or more whatever). In what way does anyone gain any satisfaction in killing someone by simply dropping someone off a ledge? Why is it even in the game, and moreso, why is it encouraged by awarding POINTS for this?


Gets me all warm and fuzzy inside.


I would get more satisfaction from doing lethal damage to my opponents than I would if I merely had to wait until someone goes anywhere near the edge of a drop, and then flick my mousewheel up in their general direction.


Play on non-force servers if it's such an issue.


From lava you can’t get out of in Quake, to “space maps” in Quake 3, to what we have now in the 3 foot wide catwalks on Nar Shadaa in Jedi Knight 2, time and time again, designers think it is cute and humorous to spend the majority of the game watching people fall, rather than watching people have interesting confrontations dealing with agility, speed, and aim.


You can always make your own maps. There is an SDK out now.


On maps that do not include insta-death scenarios (especially setups that take up the majority of the map), I find multiplayer JK2 exhilarating and very enjoyable. There is a mix of balance based on what weapons are available, the environment, and force powers. The game is fast paced and exciting. You can spend 100% of the time worried about what your opponents are doing, and adjust your playstyle accordingly.


Agreed. It rocks.


The moment that most of your attention must be on where you are walking exactly INSTEAD of what your opponents are up to is when the gameplay grinds to screeching halt, turning the match into the FPS equivalent of a pillow fight. What may have been placed in the game as “fleeting, short-lived fun” for the folks that enjoy listening to wails of falling foes, is basically an extremely shallow excuse for gameplay.



Or you could worry about both. But that would require skill.

Rogue74
04-24-2002, 03:03 PM
I don't think it's any kind of problem at all. You've just got to think about what you're doing or about to do and you have to keep aware of where you're at so people can't exploit your position and send you off of a ledge. Force pushing, pulling, or gripping someone off a ledge is as much of a kill as a heated lightsaber duel. You exploit mistakes and stupidity in both.

Those maps are my favorite because nothing is more humiliating than Force gripping someone and holding them over a ledge and holding them where they can't do anything about their situation then dropping them.

Fettish
04-24-2002, 03:12 PM
If you don't like the bottomless pit maps, then don't play them. There are plenty of other levels you can play that don't have pits everywhere.

Con. Snake
04-24-2002, 03:27 PM
I'm working on a map, that yes has pits. But when a players is pushed, pulled, gripped, or whatever and thrown into them, an air current pushes the player back to safety. It's a rowdy "F**k You" to the type of players I hate. I'm sure it will piss off those bastards, but ya know what? Don't like it, Don't play it. No skin off my back.

Harpoon
04-24-2002, 11:03 PM
Why do people do it? its the only way to eliminate players quickly. In JO you hit the guy tons of times with your lightsaber and he doesn't die and it usually ends with either one of your teammates coming with with a repeater and stealing your kill or a couple of his buds arriving.

Grets Sirob
04-24-2002, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Wake
all whiners should be killed ... play a different game if you dont like it


Yes! Yes! My thoughtsexactly!

CM_Third
04-24-2002, 11:16 PM
OK think of it this way, your on nar shadda CTF, you get the fag, everyone races after you wanting to push you off for an easy flag return, how a bout trying to avoid them, using force speed and/or absorb, now that can take some skill. When you have 5-6 people running after you all pushing and pulling you wack on force speed and before they know it your out of range, then it takes some tactical turns and manouvers (much like fighter flying) and you may be home free. Its all about doing actions before others can react, and doing actions to counteract their efforts.

Essobie
04-24-2002, 11:48 PM
Wow... I don't think I saw one person actually answer my question. Did you see it? Here it is again: Will competitive play organizers IGNORE maps that have falling the #1 cause of death?

I couldn't care less what all of you think about my personal lack of skill of or knowledge of the game, regardless of how incorrect you are.

I don't think anyone would disagree with this statement: It is not fun to die instantly without actually competiting with other players.

Now put down your love for Star Wars for a moment and think about just how many times you fall to your death in ffa_ns_streets and ctf_bespin compared to how many times you get sabered or shot to death by other players. I don't care if you flubbed a Force Jump or you were deflected by someone Force Pushing you off a catwalk.

I concider myself an above average player, and on both maps, I'm looking at a percentage in the high 60's... if not more, of me falling to my death instead of dying in a fight.

I can forgive the Nar Shadaa map because it obviously was just ported to FFA from the single player game. Bespin is just a bad map. Period.

Will I not play on servers that these maps are on? Absolutely not. Do you think that I LIKE not having a good time? That isn't the point of the original post. I was pointing out that this aspect of the game does not lend itself to competitive gameplay, and wondering if the leagues and ladders that are out there agree with that statement, and if so, what are they doing about it.

Essobie

Darth Abbadon
04-25-2002, 01:07 AM
No, I would say they would be included as well, because (as we've stated already) it takes practice and skill not to get your ass thrown into the darkness of the pit below.

Essobie
04-25-2002, 02:37 AM
Originally posted by Darth Abbadon
No, I would say they would be included as well, because (as we've stated already) it takes practice and skill not to get your ass thrown into the darkness of the pit below.

Anyone can post a reply to a message and say that the person they disagree with here is simply "lacking skill". What do you think I do? Get on a Nar Shaddaa FFA game and get schooled by everyone on the server, and that's why I'm gripping about it now? I can see how you may make that assumption given a lot of the whining about people using guns too much or force drain too much or whatever too much. Most of these threads are started by some guy that is tired of having his posterier handed to him by someone else using... "whatever" too much.

This thread however, was not started for that reason.

As I've mentioned in numerous other threads, I use all of the tools in the game to put me at the top of the score board, be it heavy repeater alt-fire, detpacks, strong stance, whatever. My insistance that insta-death maps are bad design does not stem from the fact that I LOSE because of these maps. It stems from the fact that it is TOO EASY for me to WIN by simply pushing people off the map. And I do it every time I insist on sticking around during one of these maps.

Fortunately coming in first more often than not isn't blinding my understanding that using the void to my advantage is far too easy to do, and is no real reflection on my prowess as a game player. I simply see what is the most efficient way to dispatch my opponents, and strive to do it to them more than they do it to me.

It doesn't take practice and skill to keep from getting tossed off. It just requires a lot of patience and careful planning. Sadly none of this patience and careful planning have ANYTHING to do with your opponents. You will have to be careful and patient before you go and grab a flag in ctf_bespin REGARDLESS of whether or not someone is waiting to push you off or not... just because it is so easy for them to do so if they happen to be there.

I can't really see any competitive accomplishment by being the guy who fell off the edges the least. I'm surprised any of you can.

Essobie

Darth Abbadon
04-25-2002, 02:49 AM
I didn't say you lacked skill. I said that they would be included in competitions for the reasons I stated. I still say it takes practice and skill. Sure, you could jump and roll all the time to try and avoid enemy weapons and such, but you can't do that in the maps with pits beccause it leaves you more vulnerable to someone pushing or pulling you. Thus it takes practice and skill to not get hit and at the same time keep from making yourself vulnerable to being thrown into the abyss.

Demangel
04-25-2002, 06:47 AM
Nobody is saying remove the maps, or that they nescessarily suck, but they turn into a push pull grip fest.

I don't mind bespin too much because there are ways to avoid it...

even Ns has it's spots of relative safety. the problem only arrises in that regardless of skill, as you said, people turn it into a "who can get the push/pull/grip off first.

A few people pointed out the good qualities of these maps. I for one agree on non force servers, Ns is an AWESOME map to play for thses reasons! you can still be thrown to your doom be a strong style hit, or a jump kick. (yes some non force servers do let you use these things).

but a lot of people on full force servers, end up with a different experience.

for example, say Jedi A is great with his saber, and is a well balanced force user, able to use all force powers effectively to counter whatever is thrown against them. they are a top notch player, the kind you want on your clan roster...

In a map like the temple map or some other non pit map they clean house, using force powers without spamming all saber styles ETC. they get positive kill scores and still manage to be honorable and not grip lightning drain everyone in sight constantly or DFA all the time.

(I rarely hear about some Spammer complaining that a well rounded player is lame BTW, I wonder why?).

now enter Player B.

Player b is getting his clock cleaned on these non pit maps, barely scoring any kills... and basiaclly spamming everyone he sees... No big deal he is ignored.... Or dealt with on sight... No disrespect, just termination...

now the map cycles to NS streets... Jedi A, is grumbling to himself due to prior experience... Player B is grinning, speccing his grip and drain powers as well as push and pull, often ignoring saber skills or whatever to ensure he has the points for these all important force powers on this map.

Player A, regardless of some sense of honor or not, is running around looking for someone to fight... not caring much if he wins orloses since he is a cool guy...

Player B sees player A on the catwalkto his side... and turns on push and hits the force button. zoom player A gone...

Player A decides to even the score, and looks for player b. Zap, player B uses grip and bye bye player A

Over and over, hardly a single swing of the saber, or anything else...

Sure you could say he is skilled at push or pull as he is now leading the kill charts... but I call him a spammer... a lamer...

Unfortunately on maps like NS streets only a fool would ignore using push or pull or grip or whatever else they do that is similar. Otherwise they have to deal with losing and losing horribly.


My worst experience was one night, while not giving a damn about winning or losing I was running around. somehow I was leading the server with 16 kills and 30 deaths... both teams however had negative kills, and this server had no time limit...

I eventually decided I had enough but liked the server so I went to spectate... watched for a bit... then got bored, as the score never hit the kill limit... I went off made some soup and came back and the other team was now winning with 15 positive kills. i sat down within the span of a half hour that team went from this score to -15 kills on the team score... DEAR GOD!!! the toher team had five... it took nearly two hours before the map changed, and nobody who started that map had stayed, and even most of the newcomers had been replaced...

i ended up playing with all new people...

Now if this sounds like heaven to anyone, remind me never to join a server you advise is a good one...

I don't mind the pits, but they could be done better... As it is it DOESN'T take much skill to push or pull in NS and rack up points....

Instead you need major skills to survive! unless you resort to the same thing (which we all end up doing I bet)

Essobie I don't think your whining... for once a complaint/opinion wasn't in a whining tone... and it was well thought out, phrased, and presented...

It shows in the majority of replies even those who disagree don't claim your whining... so don't worry I got your back if we even meet... you seem like a fun player, not just some uber l33t pu$h Phr3@k3r with a bad attitude... Someone who plays with style and skill, regardless of some mythic Saberists code of honor.

I salute you... And no I'm not kissing up. I just repect this guys words, which is a rare thing on ANY gaming forum these days, so any lamers who want to flame him or me, can blow it out thier dung besmeared Farting hole cuz I won't be back to this thread to see it. Ie I don't care how big your chimchongas are, you can't impress king kong by telling him you have nuts the size of cantelopes when his are the size of beach balls... got it? good...

Pseudonym
04-25-2002, 06:57 AM
I like the idea of being able to double jump, like in the SBX mod for JK1. That way you could flip back up and ppl would stop trying to push you off and start trying to fight you. We should at least have some other defence to protect us from falling since blocking doesn't work when you're trying to hit them.
Raven should put it in a patch, but I doubt they will. :-\

Dvlos
04-25-2002, 10:08 AM
I think it is fun, I just wish there could be a counter to getting pushed and pull, kind of like in the SP where the Reborn or Desann hold up their hand and block the push.

For example if you know your in a push map then you can walk around defensively from a push, but your saber blocking might not be so good... if you stop protecting from getting pushed and attack with your saber you leave yourself open to get slammed, or something...Even if push doesn't knock you on your ass you get pushed back 3-4 feet. The only thing I can also say is, that I have been able to PULL someone with me after a push.. heh.

But I do not think it should be eliminated, and I do think a person should get a frag credit for it. I have been outnumbered and been able to push, pull, and saber everyone for victories. Maps like Bespin and and NarShadaa SHOULD be redesigned to be more like the FFA-Bespin map so while there are areas you can get pushed off from its NOT THAT easy. LIke in NarShadaa where you can get pushed to your doom right after respawning.

Con. Snake
04-25-2002, 12:44 PM
I just wish there could be a counter to getting pushed and pull, kind of like in the SP where the Reborn or Desann hold up their hand and block the push.Yeah, it's called standing still. The less you move, the less you try to use your own force, the less you attack with whatever weapon, the more you will resist them pulling or pushing you. Don't do anything and the most the will happen is you'll be pushed/pulled a few inches. Crouching(to me) seems to make you more resistant than standing.

Rogue74
04-25-2002, 05:52 PM
Using pull usually will defeat someone pushing you and vice versa (that is what you see happening when you use push/pull on the Reborn). You can also use pull on someone who Force grips or pushes you off of a ledge and usually they will think before doing it again.

DNACowboy
04-25-2002, 06:08 PM
Having been in the UT IG league for coming up 3 years now, i would say they are left in.

CTF is not about maps, its about the team work and how your team handles on the map. in league play you can't concentrate on the map.. itsa bout the team..

the only maps that are really "banned" from league play are very non symetrical maps, where 1 team has a better defensive ( or offiensive - same same) advantage. The closest map that would come to that would be is the CTF_Yavin. but even though it is non sysmetrical in the way the home base is setup ( one has pillars , one does not), it is symetrical in the sense that niether team has the advantage.


that is the one thing i love about CTF... it is a team sport, no matter the map (if symetrical) both teams have to deal with it..

in fact league play will be even more exciting with these maps because each team will no doubt have specific role players and specific strategies for these maps.


1 good example which i try to use on any map with pits is get behind my flag runner when he has the flag, this makes it much more difficult for the other team to pull, push target my flag runner ( they can't target through me) and it usually ends up i get pulled and pushed enough that the flag runner can escape..



i think another point i like about the pit maps is it heavily favors defence. where as the other maps ( don't remember the name, the one with the rocket launcher in the middle, floor, and then the cat walks above it) is more oriented to a strong offensive team. kindof makes for a change of pace.

in the end: league play, CTF all comes down to team work.. not the map.

forethought
04-25-2002, 06:23 PM
The only time I get really upset with that is when someone pushes me down and I get right to the edge, and I'm like 'Whew, that was close', but then my character does this little backflip thing to get up, sending me over the edge, and I'm like 'Dumb@ss!'

Oh well, it's just a game.

gaeb
04-25-2002, 06:26 PM
:vadar: http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=46464 Countering push info...

As to pits, their existence has always been a bit of a puzzle to me too, but they do make the game more enjoyable. If you don't like it, get the map editor out and make some maps!

- Gaeb

YodaJunior2
04-26-2002, 08:47 PM
as usual, a particular game style brings accusation of "spamming" or being a "lamer". i'll admit to using grip and push/pull to chuck people off ledges, but then i dont find i get my arse whipped on levels without any pits....

it just seems curiously similar to the "no skill" debate over heavy stance and drain i have seen recently... nothing wrong with grip in my opinion, any decent light side jedi can just whack on absorb all day, so you have the challenge of dumping em off the edge before they can put it on. for a brief moment i might be annoyed if someone knocks me over with push then chucks me off the edge, but in the end most people get ample oppurtunity to push you away, but fail to do so..

i think the levels with pits should be included, a "well rounded" player should, by the nature of being "well rounded", be able to cope with them

:guard: maybe you don't like grip? use absorb then, it makes for an infinitely more boring game, particularly if guns are on, absorb and guns....no forces against you, if someone draws a saber run till you get the heavy repeater, that is worse than any gripping or pushing in terms of making the game tedious...

Rogue74
04-26-2002, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by forethought
The only time I get really upset with that is when someone pushes me down and I get right to the edge, and I'm like 'Whew, that was close', but then my character does this little backflip thing to get up, sending me over the edge, and I'm like 'Dumb@ss!'

Oh well, it's just a game.

:D I absolutely hate that. I did that when someone on the garbage masher level pushed me towards the pit where the repeater is. I went to the edge, whew, then did a back flip right into it...

ArmchairAthlete
04-26-2002, 09:34 PM
I don't think I'd have had half as much fun in JKII if I could not get kills by throwing/dropping/blowing other players into pits. IT IS JUST SO FUN!!! Lol.

Haven't played a FPS yet where you could do this, and I love it.

There are several ways to escape being thrown/gripped. Learn them and stop complaining.