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Manos_Argentis
04-23-2002, 11:09 PM
The fencing system feels a bit half baked... Don't get me wrong, it's a major improvement from other first person games where you are fencing, but still... While they were at it making a better system anyway, why not give it the whole nine yards?

There are no real combinations in the system, only very, very basic stuff... Also you can neither thrust, nor parry.

Interestingly, they neither thrust nor parry with the sabers in the movies, even though the weapon does seem to invite it...

Other options I would have wanted to see are things like being able to put together your own fencing style - perhaps in an external editor - by some easy to use interface, instead of limiting us in this way?

And there are no options for either stance nor height of attack/guard. And no two-weapon techniques? No selecting how you want to hold the weapon?

I'd expect this sort of block-headed adherence to the old, traditional ways of fencing from a traditional, block-headed Jedi, but I thought Kyle Katarn was supposed to be dynamic and such?


And again, where are my beautiful combinations when I want them?

Come _on_... This fencing system is a fine start, but why stop there? And if there was never any intention to develop it very much anyway, why give it such potential? If you're not going to include combinations, etc. you can just as well stick with the click-to-swing, hold-and-release-for-powerful-attack, secondary-trigger-to-block approach.


/MA

Fettish
04-23-2002, 11:12 PM
Maybe in an expansion pack???

sanpilou
04-23-2002, 11:13 PM
llllaaaaaame :barf:

Hubris
04-23-2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by Manos_Argentis

There are no real combinations in the system, only very, very basic stuff... Also you can neither thrust, nor parry.

There are several thrust moves, and you can actually parry in two ways, lightsaber collision, or by going on the defensive and not attacking and keeping your eyes on your opponent.

Interestingly, they neither thrust nor parry with the sabers in the movies, even though the weapon does seem to invite it...
So I guess Qui Gon didn't die to a thrust by Maul, and Darth Vader wasn't repeatedly parrying Luke in the fight that resulted in his hand being cut off? Light saber clashes, probably the signature of the mythos, doesn't result from parries?

And there are no options for either stance nor height of attack/guard. And no two-weapon techniques? No selecting how you want to hold the weapon?

You have a stance key, giving you three stances, which controls your height, speed and length of attacks, and also your arc of guard, it also changes how you hold the weapon.

I think you may have mistakenly bought JK1 :o

Wes Janson SMR
04-24-2002, 12:04 AM
Er.. There's not a whole lot to say here. Jedi Art 'Saber Combat is vastly different from the sport of Fencing. It's like...comparing Samurai warriors with Tennis players..kind of.

Lightsabers and foils are two very different weapons, and require different mechanics to weild. Though there are Fencing techiques mixed in with the Jedi Art styles, it's not the sole basis. You can thrust, and parrying is a passive maneuver - it sometimes happens if someone hits you at the right spot, and as you block, you parry them to the side, or hit the weapon straight out of their hand at the higher defense levels.

toolboi
04-24-2002, 12:22 AM
the Jedi Art styles
Am I the only one who finds this ammusing :D

Any how, I agree that block should work as a parry feature, maybe two buttons for swinging, and one just does a defensive slash. It would make for some interesting combos.

As for fencing... well sword fighters rarely (if ever) fence in a battle. Fencing is an art, while jedi skills are more based on fighting. If you look back at the first 3 movies the sword fighting is VERY basic but quite efficient (most notibly when luke runs in on Jabbas ship in ROTJ).

colonel_stryker
04-24-2002, 12:25 AM
According to something I saw on starwars.com, the art of lightsaber dueling is supposed to include,

"the techniques of Epee, Kendo, and Rapier, throwing in a little influence from tennis and tree chopping for good measure."

http://www.starwars.com/episode-i/feature/19981216/index.html

Wes Janson SMR
04-24-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by toolboi
the Jedi Art styles
Am I the only one who finds this ammusing :D

Well hey, I use the term loosely. But, in the famous words of Wedge Antilles:

"I just report 'em. I don't make 'em up."

posternutbag9d9
04-24-2002, 02:25 AM
Well, since this is a videogame and not a fencing simulation, it is not a problem.

Mandamus
04-24-2002, 02:36 AM
No, he's got a point.

The saber system is vastly improved from the first game. It still deserves something more.

I always thought that "real" lightsaber combat would look something like Olympic fencing; the weightless blade and omni-directional-very deadly-cutting edge would simply be a matter of scoring a "touch" on your opponent.

I've seen some players demonstrate a surprising amount of control in a duel- maybe there's something more to this than just waving it around...

The only glaring problem is the damage-radius from heavy-stance slashes; seems awfully effective even after your opponent has lodged his blade in the floor.

Now if we can only get a little RP in the multiplayer games...that would be something.

M.

obijonkenobi
04-24-2002, 01:51 PM
Some people expect the games sabre combat to equal the episode 1 combat. Others seem to compare it to what-should-be insted of what-used-to-be (eg: JK1). Comparing it to what was done last time is the only real thing you should compare it to I believe. Why do people insist on saying "It should have been this and that" instead of "i like how they improved this because that wasnt so good before". Its like people love picking things and taking the bad and magnifying it so the good improvments seem miniscule and irrelevant.

The Jedi Knight FPS game is far from dead in my opinion. So look at the leap in combat with Lightsabres which happened from JK1 to JK2. Just imagine what JK3 will be like if given the same leap in combat.

I guess people expect to go from poor sabre combat to flawless in only one game! Thats like saying "okay baby, your crawling now, but your next step i demand you do the 100 metre hurdles at the olympics". It is just not realistic. You can only improve on whats done beforehand and eventually after a few games you will get it right. But not after only the second game.

Like I said, the Jedi Knight series (be it as Kyle or whoever) is not dead yet. There will be a 3rd Jedi Knight game of some sort by Lucasarts featuring the force and lightsabres as the main focus (just like the current two) so let them develop the sabre combat with natural progression.

I hope this made sense.

LooNBB
04-24-2002, 02:16 PM
I agree with the spirit of your original post, but not really on the content.

I am extremely dissapointed with the MP saber fighting. The SP model seems a lot more realistic and I don't understand why there is such a vast difference between the 2.

Eventhough there still really isn't a block key (you can turn off manual block and add one) in SP blocks happen a lot more fluidly. I haven't yet seen any responses from Raven on exactly why they made the two models so different or why they thought the button Mashing model of MP duels makes for a better experience.

I personally would love to see a MOD that includes the SP saber dynamics as opposed to the current MP.

I would love to have a block button and an attack button along with "style" changes as opposed to Swing Strength/length changes. The attack button swings the saber at the opponent whereas the Block button attempts to contact the other saber.

I am confident Raven tried out these other fight models and from test feedback, design feedback etc decided that their implemented model was the best to suite the wants of the majority of gamers. But, I still find Spawning NPCs in single player mode and fighting them, MUCH more entertaining than the MP duels.

Now... Just gives us an SP arena with expanded NPC add-ins so we can spawn all kinds of "Movie" Jedi and Sith.

I want to fight Vader... the big sissie!

Kataarn
04-24-2002, 02:43 PM
@Mandamus:

We've already established that the lightsaber is NOT weightless, as people seem to think.

Check out the 'Sabers' thread to see the logical physics and chemistry behind this establishment.

Besides, only a fool would try to thrust with a lightsaber. You can do that with Rapiers because you have no other way to attack. However, with a lightsaber, if you thrust, you leave yourself WIDE OPEN to retaliation...something your opponent is definitely going to take advantage of.

Besides that fact, Qui-Gon didn't die from a thrust, you can't exactly 'thrust' with saberstaves, because there's no point.

:)

Mandamus
04-24-2002, 03:49 PM
Ahh...I seem to have stepped on the toes of a Star Wars-o'phile or two.

This is the trouble with discussing anything with fanatics. They don't see the forest for the trees. Imagine going to a "Star Trek" forum and discussing...tribbles...or something...If I said they were furry and cute, I'd probably get ten people jumping down my throat explaining how they're really dangerous reptiles and Captain Kirk was perfectly justified in "beaming" them all into space, and if I DARE say anything different, I'll get my pocket-protector stolen and a slurpee poured down my pants!

The slurpee (tm) sounds like fun, actually.

I'm tempted, but not terribly interested in what a bunch of Star Wars Nerds (tm) came up with regarding "canon" lightsaber technology.

It's a $#!@!! energy weapon. Energy is $#!@!! weightless.

George Lucas didn't make them wave them around like flashlights because that would look spastic (like Olympic fencing looks spastic--it really does) and the old rotoscope he used in the '70's to film it required the props have a solid blade of some kind. It looks cool anyway.

You all might be interested to know, that the original concept art for SW included EVERYONE with a lightsaber AND SHIELD--even the stormtroopers (tm) got lightsabers and shields. Cool, eh?

Qui-Gonn got stabbed to death. I saw it with my own eyes. Nasty points on those double-saber thingies. :P

M.

JediMouse
04-24-2002, 03:55 PM
About Kyle not being a more adept fencer --

Remember, he's untrained. No one ever really taught him to use the saber. It's all instinct and Force sensitivity. I can't imagine he'd have trained extensively with any melee weapon before the saber, either. Cut him some slack! :)

~JediMouse~

Kataarn
04-24-2002, 04:13 PM
@Mandamus:

I personally couldn't care less about what happened in the Original Star Trek series, so it's kinda a moot point. Besides, reptiles don't have fur.

If the saber IS an energy weapon as you seem to think, besides the fact such a thing is impossible (think, the repulsion force exerted by electrons would be WAY too strong to produce an energy weapon with constant length / width, without a containment field, and of course, you wouldn't be able to take this containment field off, which means you could never do any real damage with the saber, which we all know doesn't happen).

Therefore, you are wrong, and the explanation in the 'Sabers' thread makes a lot more sense.

My original point was that you are able to stab people with a saberstaff, because of several reaons:

1) You have another blade to defend yourself with.
2) You don't have to lunge to preform the thrust.
3) There's no risk that your opponent's saber will harm you when he/she is impaled upon yours.

Hence, it makes perfect sense why Jedi don't thrust with sabers.

Fyunch Click
04-24-2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Kataarn


Besides, only a fool would try to thrust with a lightsaber. You can do that with Rapiers because you have no other way to attack.
:)

Erm,

Speaking as a classically trained Rapier fighter you are wrong. Rapiers had edges. Draw and push cuts were a part of life. If you caught someone's brachial or carotid artery with the edge and pushed or pulled they were as dead as if you ran them through. You didn't hack with a rapier like you would have with a cut and thrust sword but you could indeed cut with one. So that statement is a bit out of line.

A lightsaber might not have an edge per se but a true Rapier did.

JediMouse
04-24-2002, 04:41 PM
Right, Fyunch.

So many people, when they think western fencing, think Olympic sport fencing, not life-and-death true fencing as was really practiced -- yes, not just in the movies, people really did that.

And yes, there are thrusts in the movies. Obi-Wan vs Vader, Ep4, Death Star Hangar Bay. Obi-Wan thrusts, and Vader performs a circular parry, as is appropriate -- you catch the side of the incoming blade and spin it off away from you.

That said, the saber fights we see in the classic trilogy owe a lot more to kendo/katana style than to western fencing -- western fencing is not generally done with two hands... Almost every ready pose, swing, parry, and step is straight out of kendo -- if you really are into this stuff, look it up, it's quite cool.

~JediMouse~

Mandamus
04-24-2002, 05:14 PM
Okay, Kataarn, I'll admit that it's sometimes fun to explore the technical possiblities of fantasy-weapons--but your entire argument hinges on the mass of the blade.

How much would this small amount of plasma weigh?

I thought that if I were in the films, that I would ask the props manager to make me a saber with a heavy pommel, so that I could more effectively simulate a light-bladed weapon.

And speaking as a trained fencer myself, thrusting with the weapon is a real and deadly tactic. Luke does it in ROTJ against Darth V.

Another possiblity to consider is how the Force would affect such combat. Imagine being able to anticipate your opponents movements, or using the Force to mentally "feint" against your opponent. Perhaps this is why we see so much acrobatics in the SW movies.

M.

Low Rent
04-24-2002, 05:16 PM
Originally posted by Kataarn
@Mandamus:

I personally couldn't care less about what happened in the Original Star Trek series, so it's kinda a moot point.

Yeah I don't care about star trek either...so you are right...it's moot.

Kataarn
04-24-2002, 05:22 PM
Ok, I'll admit it, I was thinking about the western-style rapiers that only have a point, and no edge.

After I read your post Fyunch, I remembered that rapiers do have edges, and kicked myself for saying they didn't. I forgot the difference between the western style, and original rapiers.

That being said, you don't even have to preform a circular parry to counter a thrust, just sidestep, and counter with your own attack. That is, of course, unless you have no room to sidestep, or are too slow to do so (Vader's problem). However, I believe that if someone mistakenly tried to thrust against Darth Maul for instance, he would just sidestep and slice them in half on the way by.

:)

Mandamus
04-24-2002, 05:40 PM
My point wasn't about Star Trek, it was about fanatics-- nerds who are fascinated with technical details and their imaginary worlds which cannot be invaded by outsiders.

Star Wars, Star Trek, DragonballZ (shudder)...

Western-style rapiers have both edges and points. Foils do not. I am struggling to remember if epees do or not. Naturally, the weapon design determines it's use in combat.

Lightweight blades are easy to counter, the trick is speed. Vader wasn't necessarily "slow", I think. He was very deft at blocking and parrying. George Lucas wanted him to look "solid"--a big, black, shadowy thing of evil--no jumping around for the Lord of the Sith!

M.

Fyunch Click
04-24-2002, 05:50 PM
Hey, NP. :)

Just hate to see misinformation about a hobby of mine get put out there thats all.

Chiles4
04-24-2002, 05:54 PM
Fascinating! as Spock would say. Oh nevermind, I never watched that show. ;)

Kataarn
04-24-2002, 05:58 PM
My point was about people that come in here and claim things that have been thoughtfully discussed and found to be proven otherwise, by people that know more about the subject.

If you would be so kind as to post a long and thoughtful explanation as to how a beam of pure energy could possibly exist and remain constant, I might actually believe you.

However, you didn't, claimed something that has been proven otherwise, therefore I think it was a pointless claim...and frankly, just made you look dumb.

Aanyways...I suppose it all comes down to fighting style. Vader prefers to beat people fairly. Maul on the other hand, isn't exactly someone that plays by the rules.

:)

LooNBB
04-24-2002, 06:31 PM
:monkey4:

JediMouse
04-24-2002, 06:36 PM
1) Vader plays by the rules? What about tossing junk at Luke on Bespin?

2) When you list rapier, epee and foil, I know you are still thinking sport fencing. Forget it. Those guys in the white outfits with the screen-mask helmets may be great athletes, and it may be based on actual fencing, but modern sport fencing only bears a slight resemblance to medieval/renaissance swrodfights, and the weapons bear even less.

The name foil comes from the item's (a piece of sports equipment, not a weapon) function -- to foil (that is, defeat) an incoming attack. It is designed to be quick and light, so as to be very defensive in nature. It does not have a blade edge. It also does not have a point. It is *considered* to have a point, thus scoring only with thrusts.

The names rapier and epee come from the French, "epee rapiere," which simply means "long sword" (well, more like "rediculously long sword," at the time). The sport fencing rapier is a heavier, slower weapon than the foil, and counts points as though a short length of the end of the blade (for lack of a better word) were sharp, so cuts and such can count. The epee is sort of halfway between foil and rapier. Don't even get me started on the sabre (as a sport fencing "weapon").

And it has nothing to do with "Western-style;" when I said that, I meant fencing in the European fashion, instead of kendo in the Asian fashion. These sport "weapons" are exactly that -- sports equipment. Western fencing swords (which are not for sport fencing) would be the rapier (which in this case is a one-handed, three foot long blade, front is edged all the way up, back is edged for the last six inches or so, blade is about a half-inch wide), or in later periods, smallsword and such, which for style, are all based on rapier anyway.

Almost all lightsaber use in the classic trilogy is based on kendo, not on European fencing -- a move or two here and there notwithstanding. Don't try to compare the saber fighting in this game with fencing -- it doesn't apply.

~JediMouse~

GreyJedi
04-24-2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Kataarn
@Mandamus:

We've already established that the lightsaber is NOT weightless, as people seem to think.

Check out the 'Sabers' thread to see the logical physics and chemistry behind this establishment.

Besides, only a fool would try to thrust with a lightsaber. You can do that with Rapiers because you have no other way to attack. However, with a lightsaber, if you thrust, you leave yourself WIDE OPEN to retaliation...something your opponent is definitely going to take advantage of.

Besides that fact, Qui-Gon didn't die from a thrust, you can't exactly 'thrust' with saberstaves, because there's no point.

:)

There is an old saying in western fencing: "The point is quicker than the edge." A thrust is faster than a slash.

Mandamus
04-24-2002, 10:04 PM
However, you didn't, claimed something that has been proven otherwise, therefore I think it was a pointless claim...and frankly, just made you look dumb.

Yeah, I'm dumb. If you'll read my posts, I haven't disagreed with anything anyone has said. Go read a book on swordsmanship, Thrust-boy.

I recommend "Autumn Lightning" by Dave Lowry -- a true story of an American teenager who learns the "way of the sword".

Good posts, Jedimouse. Keep 'em coming. Do you have any training with bokken vs. staff? I was wondering what the tactics would be for the swordsman (thinking of Darth Maul vs. Obi-wan, naturally).

And what would you all think of a "Light-Naginata" (a light-saber with REACH)?

M.

Chanke4252
04-24-2002, 11:00 PM
This is a dumb dumb thread that has been discussed in one form or another multiple times. Shut up and stop whining for god's sake. This is my last visit to this board because the information is no longer interesting or worthwhile. The game is what it is, get on with life and stop arguing about how they should totally revamp the saber system in a patch, because thats a completely unrealistic thing to want and completely unfair of you to expect it from Raven or any other company.

JediMouse
04-25-2002, 02:31 PM
No, I have no training in those forms. However, my instinct would say that your approach (as the swordsman) would differ depending on the style being used by the staff-wielder.

If the staff is wielded in Bo style, all strikes and parries are with the ends of the weapon, in the last six inches, usually. Your biggest worry would probably be his reach. My instinct would say say out at his range, and try to strike for his hands to make him drop the weapon.

If he is using a European quarterstaff style, strikes are usually still with the ends of the staff, but most parries are with the center section. Same instinct, go for the hands.

Of course, with a lightsaber, some of the strategy may change -- you'll notice that Obi-Wan used his greater speed to get inside Maul's best range, disabling his ability to parry with the ends of the weapon (the light-blades). Instinct took over, and Maul brought up the centre of the weapon to parry, and had it cut in half.

~JediMouse~

Caster
04-25-2002, 04:03 PM
To cause more damage.

Think about it, by slowing the speed of the swing, the saber stays in contact with the flesh for a longer period of time causing more damage and pain.

And there's also the bullet type affect. The faster the bullet, the "cleaner" the wound and less damaging. But if a bullet gets lodged in a person, that creates a whole long list of complications.

-Caster

Manos_Argentis
04-25-2002, 04:13 PM
>There are several thrust moves, and you can actually parry in >two ways, lightsaber collision, or by going on the defensive and >not attacking and keeping your eyes on your opponent.

Neither of those two are parries. They're blocks.


>So I guess Qui Gon didn't die to a thrust by Maul, and Darth >Vader wasn't repeatedly parrying Luke in the fight that resulted >in his hand being cut off? Light saber clashes, probably the >signature of the mythos, doesn't result from parries?

Darth Maul wasn't ever thrusting, was he? And that final blow was more like a cut than a thrust. I was talking about short and long thrust, not to mention the oh-so lovely flash thrusts.

And Darth Vader was blocking repedeatedly, not parrying.


>You have a stance key, giving you three stances, which controls >your height, speed and length of attacks, and also your arc of >guard, it also changes how you hold the weapon.

Gee... Three stances... I stand corrected. No, serious, irony aside, I meant choosing which side you face the opponent with, chosing a high, low or medium guard, change how you hold the weapon etc. etc. individually. Like my personal favourite, having a low stance, but a high guard, with the sword hand above eye hight, pointing the blade downwards. It makes you almost impossible to hit. :)


>I think you may have mistakenly bought JK1 :o

Yea, I thought so too. Imagine my disapointment. But Jedi Knight I was never this large and resource-hungry. *grins*

Om.

GreyJedi
04-25-2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Mandamus


Yeah, I'm dumb. If you'll read my posts, I haven't disagreed with anything anyone has said. Go read a book on swordsmanship, Thrust-boy.

I recommend "Autumn Lightning" by Dave Lowry -- a true story of an American teenager who learns the "way of the sword".

Good posts, Jedimouse. Keep 'em coming. Do you have any training with bokken vs. staff? I was wondering what the tactics would be for the swordsman (thinking of Darth Maul vs. Obi-wan, naturally).

And what would you all think of a "Light-Naginata" (a light-saber with REACH)?

M.

If I recall, the Jyo (short staff) was created specifically as a short Bo (long staff) to counter the use of two katana used to trap the Bo.

The problem with thinking of of Maul's double bladed saber as a Bo or Jyo is that you can't fully utilize the length of the double bladed saber to "tsuki" (thrust), because you will be forced to hold the center piece (can't hold the blade of a lightsaber).

We practice bokken v jyo in our aiki-ken and aiki-jyo classes. I don't know if kendo or kenjitsu teaches sword v staff techniques.

JediMouse
04-25-2002, 06:31 PM
Personally, I always thought that the greatest benefit of Maul's weapon was the longer hilt. I'd use one blade at a time (maybe deploying the second for a surprise hilt-stab), and just use the longer hilt for leverage in a block or saber-lock.

~JediMouse~

enDless_Deliriu
04-25-2002, 07:11 PM
Lots of good posts on sword fighting here.

Anyhow, I'm going to talk about some brief parts with my own untrained/unexpert opinion (basically off of stuff I have read)


First. Maul didn't thrust into Qui-Gon. He stabbed him. To the best of my knowledge, a thrust is basically quickly moving the blade forward in a strait line into the person.

If you watch, maul bumps Qui-Gon's arms up with the hilt, and then spins. The spin ends up putting the lightsaber blade through Qui-Gon resulting in a stab.


As for parrying and blocking. The difference is this (to the best of my knowledge)

A block simply stops the attack. Someone is attacking downwards at you, you put your weapon up to block it. It stops the attack but doesn't really gain you anything.

A parry on the other hand, doesn't stop the attack so much as pushing it aside and leaving the person open for a counter attack.


As to the thrusting debate. Thrusting is a worthwhile technique. It is quicker than a slash, and as such can be used to attack while the opponent is still preparing their slash. It has it's disadvantages as all attacks can have, but it does have it's uses, and it is a deadly technique.


If I'm wrong, would someone please correct my mistakes :) (Oh, and didn't the rapier start out as a slashing weapon, then as time went on the blade became narrower and longer until you have what people see as Rapiers today? )

Fyunch Click
04-25-2002, 07:41 PM
Well, sort of...

The rapier is actually a court sword. It was designed for the noble to wear to court. Since he did not need to wear the broadsword, since no one was wearing armor, he needed a sword that would be functional yet attractive. Hence the rapier was born. It was designed to cut and stab through clothing. It is really an outgrowth of the dagger.

Rapiers grew in length until some blades were up to 60" long. Queen Elizabeth the 1st had the blades measured at the gates to London and if they were over a certain length the ends were cut off to conform with the law. Sort of a way to keep the pen!s envy down. :)

Anyhoo, the parry is a form of blocking. To call them seperate things is not really correct. At least not in my book.
Any attack made by your enemy should be looked upon as an opporitunity for YOU to attack. When your enemy attacks they leave themselves open for attack and are defenseless. There are many methods for striking your enemy, none of which are more advantageous than the other: Use all of them to your advantage. Also remember, the point of a blade can cut and the edge can stab.
Just some random thoughts running through my head...

JediMouse
04-25-2002, 07:49 PM
Re: rapier evolution.

The rapier was an evolutionary step of the broadsword. First, you have broadswords, which, as the name implies, have relatively wide blades. The points weren't generally sharpened, as it made the metal too thin and subject to breakage (early in the development of steel, you understand). Also, they didn't hold an edge well, and certainly weren't razor-sharp. You didn't cut an enemy so much as crush him -- the wedge shape of the edge of the blade focuses the energy of the attack on a small area (though not as small as a true edge), thus providing great force.

Later, as steel got better, cuts were more possible because the edge could be maintained. Later still, the point became a viable stabbing option as well. During this whole time, armour was becoming heavier and tougher, but made the user much slower. As missile weapons started catching up (bow becomes longbow, becomes crossbow, becomes black-powder weapons), armour didn't protect nearly as well as it did, and it became much more important to be fast and maneuverable.

As armour fell out of style, so did the heavier hand weapons. A lighter, faster style of sword became more popular -- though not right away. The name rapier, from "epee rapiere," was applied not by the weapon's makers or wielders, but by those who heard about it's use -- it seemed a rediculously long sword, thus the translated name. However it quickly proved it's worth in speed and ability. It's blade was narrower and longer than a broadsword, and it tended to incorporate more hand-protecting designs as time went on.

I don't believe it evolved into thinner forms, all the way to the sport weapon of today -- that item is a completely separate item meant to non-lethally simulate the length of a rapier, that's all. Anything even halfway between a rapier (sword) and a sport fencing rapier would be so light and bendable as to be useless in combat.

~JediMouse~

WulfeTemplar
04-26-2002, 09:27 AM
It is obvious to me that most of you are not the true die hard Star Wars fans you claim to be.
1. The lightsaber has no weight except for the hilt.
2.The constuction of a saber is detailed in I,Jedi. A book a dearly love. And just because it does not exist now someday it will.
3.TaunTauns are reptiles and oh my God they have FUR
4.There are thrusting moves in kendo and bushido I know this as FACT
Also this little bit of news for you the reason for the difference in
fighting styles in SWE1 and the other three is because Ray Parks
(Darth Maul)was the fight instructor of the movie. His style is KungFu and some bushido hence the fight parts of the movie were better than the other 3.
Now I am not some nerd or fanatic. I am a Drug Task Force Agent
that happens to be 35 years old and a BIG KID at heart. I love the movies ever since old Lucas started making them in 77.
The game can only do so much to relate true fighting with a lightsaber. True it could have done more but think of all the keys you would have to map out to do them. Well I will get off my soapbox for now.

kasiel
04-26-2002, 04:32 PM
One thing that always sorta annoyed me was that everyone

with a lightsaber seemed to hold the damn things "wrong"..


Now I don't know if this comes from a style difference or

something, but in kendo one of the most basic rules is that

you've gotta have one hand right underneath the swordguard

(tsuba) and the other at the very bottom of the handle(tsuka)

preferably with your left pinky covering the end.


Take a look at anyone (in the movies or in the game, whatever..)

and you'll see that everyone holds them with both

hands together (baseball bat stlye).


I know... It isn't really kendo, (some of the moves are too

outrageous to be kendo, and the sword is a bit long) just...

different. I just don't think one could get much strength holding

a lightsaber that way.

Wes Janson SMR
04-26-2002, 04:45 PM
Lightsaber Duelist in the Jedi Arts (boy, I love saying that) need more control than strength. However, they do draw on that strenght and finesse through the Force.

That brings me to another point in dueling. Adding in Force to the equation forces (pun) different mechanics of style and form. Without the Force, Jedi couldn't do half the things they're able to - to say nothing about their endurance for the longer matches.

When your opponent knows where you'll swing before you even do it, that calls for something a little more different than Kendo...or Tennis.

GreyJedi
04-26-2002, 04:52 PM
The seperation of the hands on the hilt of the sword is such that you acheive maximum control and power. Power from the hit comes from using your hips to swing the sword, not your arms. Think of domination cuts.

But as mentioned before, you want movies to be visually spectacular, not realistic.

kasiel
04-26-2002, 05:00 PM
I know,,,

but if you strike a heavy blow with both hands together

on something "Solid State", wouldn't the sword swivel in

your hands? (I get the impression that a lightsaber swing has

a lot less inertia than what I'm used to)

Wes Janson SMR
04-26-2002, 05:07 PM
Yup. Plus lightsabers supposedly have no weight behind them, so controling something as light might not need the aformentioend forms, or at least in a way we know of.

But personally, I remembe reading how lightsabers give off a gyroscoping effect, requiring some strength on the wielders part.

But agian, strength and control are guided by the Force. The Force, people. It's a concept people keep excudnig. Proper Martial Art forms don't fully apply to Force-adept combatants. When your opponents knows what move you're gonna do, you'll need to do it faster, and mix it up a lot more. Faster, and varried. Throw in a bout of acrobatics, and you've got a formula for throwing off your opponent.

Sartori
04-26-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by Mandamus


Yeah, I'm dumb. If you'll read my posts, I haven't disagreed with anything anyone has said. Go read a book on swordsmanship, Thrust-boy.

I recommend "Autumn Lightning" by Dave Lowry -- a true story of an American teenager who learns the "way of the sword".

(snipped)Do you have any training with bokken vs. staff? I was wondering what the tactics would be for the swordsman (thinking of Darth Maul vs. Obi-wan, naturally).


as a B rated fencer in college an a current nidan in kendo i have hit quite a number of people with the point of my shinai. heard of tsuki? its rather effective, and you have no time to sidestep if preformed properly It suprises the hell out of most of them as they are not accustomed to facing it.


The difference between a parry and a block is that a parry is followed by a riposte, a block is pointless unless you are not trying to win.

Vader and Obi-wan execute several cuts exactly from kendo kata in ep4

Manos, some of the positions you are describing are silly. A prime guard position? a simple attack with opposition would take your hand off. Remember you the slightest touch cuts.

the most important factors in sword work (or any form of combat) are timing and distance, technique only matters after that.

Obi-wan and Qui were both idiots in ep 1.
watch the DVD in slow mo and look at all the maai (openings) Maul leaves. there are multiple places where either of them could have simply stepped in and skewered him. Please raise your sabre above your head like that. Your intestines will make interesting patterns on the floor.

of course the scene was choreographed by a wushu practitioner, an inferior sword art in my experience (yes I have sparred with several, and perhaps they were not true practitioners, but they all left incredibly large openings that were easily exploited.)

but Wushu is nicer to watch (for the uninformed. true sword work is in the details that are easily missed) and so plays better in theaters.

-----------------------
it cuts

GreyJedi
04-26-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR
Yup. Plus lightsabers supposedly have no weight behind them, so controling something as light might not need the aformentioend forms, or at least in a way we know of.

But personally, I remembe reading how lightsabers give off a gyroscoping effect, requiring some strength on the wielders part.

But agian, strenght and control are guided by the Force. The [b]Force[/i], people. It's a concept people keep excudnig. Proper Martial Art forms don't fully apply to Force-adept combatants. When your opponents knows what move you're gonna do, you'll need to do it faster, and mix it up a lot more. Faster, and varried. Throw in a bout of acrobatics, and you've got a formula for throwing off your opponent.


If you believe in Ki or Chi, they might be a force analogue.

Wes Janson SMR
04-26-2002, 05:44 PM
Similar concepts, but they're applied differently. No matter how powerful one's chi can be channeled, there's no way that someone can lift a car with telekenesis. He may be able to strike a man down with a finger, but not lift a car with his mind, nor see the imediate future, nor block bullets with a sword.

GreyJedi
04-26-2002, 05:52 PM
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR
Similar concepts, but they're applied differently. No matter how powerful one's chi can be channeled, there's no way that someone can lift a car with telekenesis. He may be able to strike a man down with a finger, but not lift a car with his mind, nor see the imediate future, nor block bullets with a sword.

I thought I was being obvious, but I suppose not. I meant that the force, being in fiction what ki is to a martial artist. What comes to mind most is the "unbendable arm" trick. The use of the body's energy instead of muscular strength to either move your opponent or stay planted yourself.

As I said before, fiction must be more spectacular than real life, or it wont really hold our attention. Especially in a Sci-Fi or Fantasy setting. But that doesn't mean that the seed for the fictional ideas aren't grounded in real life concepts.

Wes Janson SMR
04-26-2002, 06:00 PM
Yeah, I see what you mean.

But again, I was pointing out the key differences. The "unbendable arm" trick is only the tip of the iceberg of proper energy control.

But hey, check out this theory. Perhapse Obi-Wan and Vader grew more mindful of practical combat over the years. It wasn't that they were too old to flip around and go crazy with the wall-jumping. The battle was serious, so no childish tomfoolery (such as meaningless and suicidal acrobatics) would have any kind of practicality.

That, or he was just trying something different to throw off his old student.

GreyJedi
04-26-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR

But hey, check out this theory. Perhapse Obi-Wan and Vader grew more mindful of practical combat over the years. It wasn't that they were too old to flip around and go crazy with the wall-jumping. The battle was serious, so no childish tomfoolery (such as meaningless and suicidal acrobatics) would have any kind of practicality.

Probably not true, but I like this theory.

The_Raptor
04-27-2002, 12:56 AM
Light saber blades are totally weightless... The handles are not, ofcourse... The lack of weight of the blade is what makes lightsabers so hard to handle for most people, and why it takes so much skill to control it well.... Ofcourse, the actual sabers in the making of the movie were solid rods, covered with reflective material (the same stuff like on stop signs), but it wasnt reflective enough, so its also "painted" in light as well. Thats why sometimes if you watch the movies, the sabers dont look very realistic (as in, if its at a bad angle only part of it stays glowing).

Oh, and I mean the old movies, not Ep 1 or 2, since they have computer generated sabers anyway (although its still choreophrahed with a solid rod)

Wes Janson SMR
04-27-2002, 01:37 AM
There were quite a few digi-errors in EP1. Mostly known goof, the lightsabers don't actually cast light...which doesn't make sense.

Least known, lightsaber blades apparently do have shadows.

So Raven did get the no-ambient-light from an activated 'saber correct. But they fudged on the volumetric shadows. The blade should have one.

But...But....The movie was like that!

panacea
04-27-2002, 06:16 AM
Watching the saber fights in Ep1. I really, really hate how Qui or Obi just stand around, casually, waiting for their turn to touch their saber to Maul's. It looks so fake and scripted.

I mean, come on. Do you want to kill the guy, or do you want your saber to make sweet love to his?

enDless_Deliriu
04-27-2002, 06:25 AM
Perhaps the WORMS theory on Light vs Dark side holds true here as well.

The light side people have to be flashy, therefore, yes, they do want their saber to make sweet love to Maul's. That's also why they do the acrobatics, it's flashy.

I doubt it, but still :)

And I noticed several of the openings Maul left as well, but (to me anyhow) I didn't see a way to get at them aside from with a thrust. And, I don't think thrust was part of the normal jedi training. (In the books Luke comments that he's never heard/seen/read of anyone using a lightsaber to thrust after Mara thrusts the lightsaber through a training droid thing)

Anyhow, back to your regularly scheduled debate.

Pedantic
04-27-2002, 07:18 AM
Wow. Oh, boy. I just feel so happy I skipped into another of these "I'm so cool, I know how to fight in the kendo style and I know how to fight in the wushu style, and I'm so good, and everyone else sucks, and JK2 sucks, and I hate the lightsaber" threads. Good lord, get a freakin' life, people.

Wes Janson SMR
04-27-2002, 07:34 AM
Heh. I don't think the peeps here are that bad. But I do agree that some of us need to ligthen up about some of the practicality of 'saber combat - both game and movies. The Force is an important factor in combat. Though it can be seen as a symbolic similarity to chi energy, it is a different animal, here. Added to that, lightsabers only weigh as heavy as the hilts. And I'm willing to dismiss that gyroscopic effect theory, as not enough source material support it (sorry, I, Jedi).

I say that we give them Jedi the benefit of the doubt. Because apparently, all the kendo in the world couldn't save Darth Maul from Obi-Wan's acrobatics. ;-)

Sartori
04-27-2002, 02:43 PM
[Pedantic , Your need to lash out is a reflection of your own inadequacy.
There are far to many misconceptions around here about the nature of sword play from armchair warriors such as your self.

But thank you for your oh so informative addition to this discussion.

Its fairly obvious who needs to find a life.

enDless_Deliriu
04-27-2002, 03:30 PM
Originally posted by Wes Janson SMR
Heh. I don't think the peeps here are that bad. But I do agree that some of us need to ligthen up about some of the practicality of 'saber combat - both game and movies. The Force is an important factor in combat. Though it can be seen as a symbolic similarity to chi energy, it is a different animal, here. Added to that, lightsabers only weigh as heavy as the hilts. And I'm willing to dismiss that gyroscopic effect theory, as not enough source material support it (sorry, I, Jedi).

I say that we give them Jedi the benefit of the doubt. Because apparently, all the kendo in the world couldn't save Darth Maul from Obi-Wan's acrobatics. ;-)


Have to agree with you here Wes. Especially with the 'I, Jedi' Thing. I liked the book too, but a couple of the things it say just don't add up properly with the other books.

One thing of which, was Corran and Luke randomly putting their sabers in chargers. Now I know that Lightsabers CAN eventually run out of energy. But, I still think they have quite the lengthy power-supply, even with constantly slicing through stuff. And two Jedi "topping off" their Lightsaber's power level just didn't seem right. But oh well, still a good book, and it did show more indepth stuff about lightsaber creation. Just wish some of it would be backed up by some other parts of the EU.

shred_lord
04-27-2002, 03:58 PM
Ok, first off, I donít actually practice any sword forms myself, though Iíd love to do Kendo but there isnít anywhere nearby :) (Iím I big fan of Japanese sword technology). So if I get my facts wrong donít flame me, just correct me.

The Ďclassicí style (epís 4 to 6) IS based on Kendo, though there are a number of mistakes, such as the occasions that Luke a Vader adopt a reverse grip (right hand at the pommel, left hand near the blade) which simply does not exist in Kendo. The ep 1 style is very similar but with the additions of certain tennis and tree chopping moves. The vast visual difference is the fact the Obi wan and Vader are a hell of a lot older and more experienced in ANH onwards. You see this in real Kendo (with out the flips ;) ), a younger swordsman will run a dodge like a maniac, utilising a variety of different ťn-garde positions from hase-no-kamť (like Qui gon) to (canít remember the Japanese name) the hidden guard. A master will most often use the middle guard (like Obi wan and Vader on the death star) a be calm, cool and focused, waiting for or creating an opening. If you were to pit young Obi and old Obi against each other, old Obi would kick young Obiís @ss all over the place! In fact you do catch a glimpse of the younger Obi in the death star fight; he does a pretty little spin near the beginning but then settles down and fights like a master. He proceed to show about the same (if not more) skill as Vader. He only loses because he chooses to.

Luke, on the other hand, is almost totally untrained. He fights with speed, yes. He fights with force enhanced perception, yes. He fights with strength, yes. He fights with impatience, YES. He fights with skill, NO.

Kyle is the same. Just think, who the hell taught him: nobody. He jumps around like heís on strings, desperately trying to land a blow, if were to fight old Obi wan heíd get his @ss kicked to the proverbial forest moon. Thatís why he fights like young Obi wan on crack with half skill!

(Not to say young Obi wan displays any great amount of skill)

Yes it would be nice if the mp engine would allow you to fight like old Obi wan (god knows Iíve tried), Iím hoping the mod detailed here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=44451) will take a little notice of the ideas I posted. ;)

Oh yeah, thrusting is perfectly possible in Kendo with the straight shinai and even possible with a Katana (which is curved).

On this whole fencing thing. In the existing films, fencing doesnít get a look in. Donít complain about the game not exhibiting any of it attributes. Apparently (and I may be wrong) Count Dooku uses a fencing style in AotC. Hopefully any mod based on choosing one style and using different ťn-garde positions within that style, will in include fencing as a style along with others.

On the weightless blade thing. In ep 1 the props were weighted heavily in the hilt to simulate a weightless (or nearly weightless) blade. It doesnít matter what anyone else says, is Lucas wants weightless blades, then the blades are weightless. OK! If he said the blades were made of intergalactic CHEESE, than that is what they are made of! (though that would be fairly silly :) )

*huh, huh, wheeze,*

Breath, Shred, Breath!

Donít you just hate it when your reply gets kinda out of hand?

*Goes to sit in a darkened room to nurse his poor RSIed hands*

Shred Lord
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If you strike me down, I will become
More dead than you can possible imagine.
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