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View Full Version : Is it just me - or is heavy the only thing used anymore?


Octavius
04-28-2002, 03:04 AM
Almost every damn server i go to, it turns into a major battle using only the heavy style. Coming from a background where i believe honorable combat is the best kind, this bothers me. Heavy is way too powerful. Yes I know it was included in the game for a reason, but for gods sake, to NEVER change from heavy is stupid. Heavy attacks are extremely easy to master, and extremely easy to mass 40 some kills to an enemies 3. Pretty retarded, when in truth, it is very possible that without that heavy stance, you would lose much more often.

Solution? No idea... The few people who have fought me man to man with medium or light, i have applauded, and when or if they win, i equally applaud them. I believe in awarding honorable combat, and lately, i have seen very few people in need of that reward. How many times have you seen a TFFA server, totally overrun by a team that ONLY uses heavy. It gets very stupid when, after 6 blue guys come into a hangar of equal or more reds, and totally take them all out, with one single lucky slice.

To me, using heavy exclusively is like sticking your dick out, hoping you manage to run into something pretty. If you somehow get even the slighest bit nicked on the arm or anything, even near the very end of the animation, you die - instantly. Often dead even with 100hp and 50shields.

No I am not whining. Yes i believe in having heavy in the game, as it does have a place. But should it be so powerful? Can't there be sometype of tradeoff? Perhaps leaving yourself totally open for a time after using it? It seems too easy to do a forward+jump+slash, and get a guy in one move.

I guess the reason so many people use it, IS because it is so easy to get cheap kills. What does anyone care about fighting for real, and having some type of honor code to it...

Hell Raiser
04-28-2002, 03:22 AM
It's just you. ;) ;P

OOO
04-28-2002, 03:29 AM
It ain't you. In most of the typical team FFAs I've been in, heavy is the most used stance.

And people claim that JO has the best melee combat in a FPS ;)


OOO

keto
04-28-2002, 03:29 AM
i agree, im am pretty new to the game, and by my second gamed, figured out that all you had to do was either use the 2 weak stances and spin around a lot. or use heavy and jumpslash. heavy does seem a little too powerful but i have been defeated while using it quite a few times. a possible solution woudl be to buff up the other 2 stances , making them a little faster even.

i played rune for quite a long time and still love the game's MP experience. from that i only join games of saber only and mostly of that no force powers. the transition from rune was kinda discouraging as the saber moves a bit slower than the weapons in rune, so my planned strategy of weak but really fast, seemed not possible. you seem to be wanting more honorable battles, and i can assure you its one thing rune has, and has done well.

Chronic
04-28-2002, 03:30 AM
i agree with what you are saying, heavy is used almost soley in every single duel game i go to... But, i highly doubt that raven will ever nerf the heavy stance, as it still retains it's negative factors. A skilled blue fighter IMO can easily take down a swing-and-pray approached newbie... perhaps someone will start a server where you can only use blue/yellow? I do agree that is would be much more fun, and if i get enough people wanting to do it, i'll make a server myself enforcing only the use of blue/yellow stances

IronJedi Kaga
04-28-2002, 03:34 AM
Heavy isn't that hard to battle (only exception is fighting someone who spams dfa when you have a significatly higher ping). The only bad thing is that it can get boring because its so easy to dodge, but the person keeps on trying over and over and over to hit you. Its not overpowered.

MMP
04-28-2002, 04:11 AM
I used to be a strong stance user, but then I found it was actually a lot more fun to use light stance. I can dodge in and out really quickly and make faster slashes in succession. I actually get more kills with light stance, strong just takes so long between swings, it leaves you open to attack. Light or medium stances also tend to give the feeling of actual dueling.

ArmchairAthlete
04-28-2002, 04:30 AM
Heavy (red) stance is the most powerful for a reason, it takes the most points to get. The investment is supposed to pay off. It's that simple. I don't know why everyone thinks all 3 stances are supposed to be balanced, they ARE NOT supposed to be.

So, master red, or save a few points for force abilities and master yellow. Forget blue.

dkc4C
04-28-2002, 04:37 AM
I usually find Blue to be the best counter to Red. Using Yellow v Red will get me killed a lot, and Red v Red is a bit of a gamble.

MMP
04-28-2002, 05:22 AM
Too many people overlook light stance because it's the "weakest." Light stance is easy to defend from because there is no pause in your attacks, and your swings have a good chance of hitting as well. Just disregard blue at your own risk, because you could find yourself cut up real fast by a light stance user.

Luc Solar
04-28-2002, 06:56 AM
I really don't understand one-stance-only-people. I mean, isn't it obvious that different stances work better in some situations than others?!
Take, for example, dueling on a narrow bridge with "the void" underneath. The benefits of the red stance are clear: hit hard and drop your opponent off the bridge. Now, if you know that the opponent is very low on health, has no shields left and you're fighting on a limitless plain...using the uberpowerful, but slow RS would be totally dumb. One hit with the light stance is quite enough.
All this should be obvious..?

toolboi
04-28-2002, 07:02 AM
Id say that red stancers number the same as yellow and blue combined. However, if the server isnt NF, this is a good thing. It means that you can rack i nthe kills by waiting for some one to swing, and then pushing them ;)
I also find that the non running red stancers are a god send for the blue player as you can EASILY take them out as they try to slash you. When you run into a good red stance player though... they are virtually unstoppable. They just avoid you until they are swinging, then after the pinicle of their swing they run bacwards. Ive actually been using this (trying to learn red stance) as of late, it works AMAZINGLY well.

Jeffie
04-28-2002, 07:05 AM
Dont give us that "Its suppose to be better" bull****!
What about saber only and no force powers? Is there supposed to be a "better" stance in that? I think not.

Schizophrenic
04-28-2002, 08:15 AM
I never use red. I use about 2/3 yellow and 1/3 blue instead, depending on the situation.

EZ|Lestat
04-28-2002, 08:22 AM
About balancing and stances in duels...

Manual Page 22 (for those of you that have one)

"STRONG LIGHTSABER COMBAT STYLE"

"It is wise to use these attacks when fighting a lone lightsaber-wielding enemy."

Abom|nation
04-28-2002, 10:26 AM
I always use Medium Stance, no matter who I fight. I just find Red stance too sluggish - I can't get the timing right with it. That and Blue is a little too weak for my liking.

Chewie Bakker
04-28-2002, 11:23 AM
To me, using heavy exclusively is like sticking your dick out, hoping you manage to run into something pretty.

Worked for me :rofl: ...no it didn't. I've ran into "something pretty" and she's been my girlfriend for six months come this Wednesday. :)

I prefer yellow stance since you can do combos with it, and I like the way it looks. Red stance looks too slow and blue stance has that whole frenzied chicken look going on (hold strafe and attack buttons for eternity).

I'm not saying that either red or blue stance take less skill. Red stance you must time your attack well, and it takes an immense amount of skill to whittle away an opponent's health using blue stance.

I play majorly in yellow stance, although I occasionally switch to red and/or blue to mix things up a little.

:yobi: (wulu@ihug.com.au)

[Dom_Pmd]
04-28-2002, 11:52 AM
Hah, dedicating yourself to one stance is foolish!

I usually pick up peoples patterns within 30 seconds of a duel, then all it takes is 2 or 3 well placed Fastor Medium strikes and they're 6 feet under! (I save DFA for DFA spammers)

3 Stance Combos!

nuff said...

:jango:

Elijah
04-28-2002, 11:59 AM
I Gave up on just about all Saber Duels of any kind.... i play CTF and thats about the ONLY thing..... its a thrill to use force powers and have bullets flying every which way.
However... im CTF people DO use this ALL Heavy thing... i usaly just pop afew Seconary fires from the repeater...but if its Sabers only you try to use force as much as you can... then keep saber throwing at them it SLOWLY Takes away about 20HP even if they are blocking...

Yea.... whats really bad is Heavyonly+Drain Only... as if they are the only forces.


Some people come into CTF wanting to duel, the other day a guy came into a game saying "Damn, i am so good!" and i thought "Gimmie one second with that BIZATCH" and when i saw him face to face running with his cute little saber out and him "Dueling everyone" i Pushed him off the side and continued Guarding the flag, So he says " Man WTF, You wont even duel me!!!"

Some people dont get it
in Duel you Duel
In CTF you Guard/Capture the flag

Mr. White
04-28-2002, 12:16 PM
Octavious, I DISAGREE! Maybe you should try venturing on my server where Strong is used sparingly. Actually the only time it really is used is when another player is force pushed to the ground allowing for the strong swing to take them out. And the stance that a person uses has nothing to do with honorable fighting. If they kicked sand in your face our punched you in the willie then I could understand your argument, but it really isn't that hard to take out a strong stance man. Use the tools given to you, force push them over, force pull them into your swing, Mind Trick them and take them from behind, ect ect. When you talk about something that really isn't fair, then you can call me so I won't completly waste my time.

Darth Skyw@lker
04-28-2002, 12:24 PM
Heavy stance suck... im only using medium and im good with it

:duel:

Ingus
04-28-2002, 12:43 PM
Ingus agrees with oct, all heavy stance players in ingus's opinion are just in it for the kills and running up the score board.

heavy stance is cool in a combo but jeez its so predictable watching players circle you to do a spin attack with heavy stance

win or loss ingus likes being part of a saber fight on the level of obiwan/darth maul in episode 1 , its more intense and challenging try to go toe to toe with an opponent wall quick blocks and quick strikes back n forth.

ingus doesn't care what style a player uses it just makes the player look like a whore when they are hooked on 1 thing in the game.

all heavy stance is preditable, be versatile idiots :P

Darth Odisse
04-28-2002, 01:18 PM
But aren't Jedi's cheaters by nature? the Force gives them a major advantage over others and in the end there is no honourable code concerning the Jedi, it's not very honourable to batter your opponent senseless with Force powers is it? you fight with the intent to win and at the end of the day winning is all that matters your opponent is dead and you're still alive, that's what's important isn't it? if someone just uses strong stance and can be beaten by someone with low-medium stance does it really matter that they only use strong stance, they're not invincible and anyone good at saber combat can beat them, so is there any point in complaining about "easy" kills?

Here's an interesting quote from an article in Empire Magazine about Mace Windu and "honourable" saber combat:

"You find out that Mace is not the calmest of Jedis," Jackson laughs, sporting a Kangol hat-V-neck sweater-polo shirt ensemble that only he could make cool. "He definitely has a flashpoint. There are a lot more battle scenes in this than in the first one, so you get to see Mace in action. You find out how he goes about doing things. He is not the person you were lead to believe."Jackson worked closely with stunt-coordinator Nick Gillard to develop Mace's particular brand of whup-ass."I wanted Mace to be kind of efficient," he says. "I've watched a lot of Japanese samurai films so I worked with Nick to incorporate some kendo moves, and I took fencing when I was younger, and I'm a huge Errol Flynn fan so I got to throw all that stuff in."

And Mace Windu, it turns out, is also a bit of a streetfighter. "For me," says Jackson, "there are times when you don't have to be fair in a battle situation and wait for your opponent to turn and face you. Mace isn't necessarily one to do things the honourable way, he'd just as soon lightsaber you in the back."

Skrig
04-29-2002, 09:35 AM
...read The Jedi Code...

http://www.theforceiswithus.com/jedicode/index.html

Charlie77
04-29-2002, 11:29 AM
Yawn....why don't you concentrate on getting better at defeating red stance players with yellow or blue rather than moaning about how "unfair" the game is, I play with all the stances and adjust my tactics according to who im fighting and a good yellow stance player can run rings around someone using red stance. Take advantage of the merits of yellow and blue and you'll find that red stance players aren't quite as 'indestructable' as you once thought :D

Icebreaker
04-29-2002, 11:47 AM
Two words: saber throw.

When a red stancer does the special move, you can at least throw twice at him before he recovers, and following that, you can do a blue special move in the air (it's possible) and get 2 more hits. He should be dead by then.

Red stancers rely heavily on luck. If you stay alert, you can avoid all of his hits easily.

Jedi-Bert
04-29-2002, 11:55 AM
actualy ive seen mostly yellow stance

Rogue74
04-29-2002, 01:46 PM
Heavy attacks are extremely easy to master,


Right... that's why there are people on every server that have "mastered" it yet I kick their butts every time becuase they are just swinging wildly, they haven't mastered it. You'll know the person who mastered it, because your supposed strategy of using light and medium attacks against it won't work.

Having said that, I switch styles multiple times in a fight depending on how good or bad the opponent is. I don't think the strong stance is any kind of problem. You just need to find ways to defeat each PERSON not each stance. The stance is only as good as the person using it.

Jedi_Monk
04-29-2002, 02:17 PM
I mostly stick to Yellow stance; for a while there, I got a "method" of balancing which stance I used. Well, I got my @$$ kicked constantly durring those few weeks. I've much recovered since concentrating on mastering Yellow. I've defeated several excellent, dominating Red Stancers. The only time I really switch, now, is when I've just won a saber-lock and opponent is on the ground. I switch to Heavy half-way through the block and take a nice swipe at them while they're out cold.

That said, I hate people who spam DFA, and I've played quite a few of them.

Caster
04-29-2002, 02:21 PM
Agreed.

Heavy stance is overused a lot and most people can't even look good while using it. Even I'm starting to use it exclusively when I was previously a medium stance user.

From how I've played it, heavy stane looks the best when you include jumps, rolls and walljumps. Most people just swing on the go and don't bother realizing how way open they are to regular weapon fire when they swing left and right running everywhere.

The DFA attack is spammed a lot too. It's value is pretty much cheapened now since most people use it every few seconds instead of every few minutes as a finishing move as stated in the manual.

Personally, for me the DFA is usually used to start or end a duel, not used again and again in between. So I try to only use it when I know it's gonna hit like when my opponent is knocked onto the ground or has his/her back turned. It's an okay opening move for a duel, a bit risky at times, but it looks really cool after a dramatic running charge.

Too me however, the most powerful move the heavy stance has is the right strafe horizontal swing, that thing has amazing range and a wide area of affect. Usually after hitting some one with it you can follow up with light or medium stance strikes to finish them off.

-Caster

Darth Odisse
04-29-2002, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by Skrig
...read The Jedi Code...

http://www.theforceiswithus.com/jedicode/index.html

A code that some Jedi have broken, such as Luke Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi, I can now see why the Jedi got wiped out in the first place..........

Karikaru
04-29-2002, 02:29 PM
i use yellow and i can never seem to defeat red ppl. all they do is jump at you, swing and jump back before you can get at them! When you try to get close enough to hit them they will often take you down to 25 hp or kill you in one hit, or you have to roll to dodge them! and then if you DO get a hit off you have taken him down to 60 hp and you need 2 more hits to finish him! for red ppl 1 hit at any time could kill you! Yellow needs to be made stronger or something. may be if they made a bigger defence bonus on yellow so you can actualy block a red swing. I have used red a couple times and it is so dumb! Jedi arent supposed to just swing around all slow hoping something gets in their way.

also: why IS red slow? its not like changing your stance makes the thing heavier. You are supposidly using more strength so it should be extremelly fast! The swings are the shortest of any stance so you'd think it would be lightning fast strikes from which there is no escape.

Tekken
04-29-2002, 02:54 PM
Geez, USING Red isn't that hard, you just have to pick your spots. And understand that you can't try to use it like you use Yellow or Blue.

I'll use Yellow in Duels ; if I get a good hit in, I'll move, switch to Red, and time my opponents subsequent charge. Overhand or righthand slash, duel over.

With Red, it's all about the timing. I've spent the majority of my time working with Yellow, so that I have a good feel for the moves. Being able to incorporate Red works well for me. Once I understood that I had to set up my opponent when using Red, it started falling into place. You can't just swing Red to be swinging; that's the path to easy defeat. Each Red swing has to have a DEFINED purpose.

DFA spammers? Bah. Takes a lil longer, because I have to be cautious, but they're not that difficult. Patience is the key against them.

As to Blue, I find it works well to throw your opponent off balance, or if you can do the forward-lunge move for extra damage. Blue is also a great way to humble someone, if you can control it....hehe..I know!!!! :D

EDIT: Red is slower because you're trading Speed for Power. If you use Blue, you trade Power for Speed. Makes sense, I think. If Red had the speed of Yellow, no one would use anything else...I think that the sabers are balanced. Someone said earlier that "It's not the saber, it's the person using it" or something to that effect. Very true and accurate observation.

Ono-Sendai
04-29-2002, 02:57 PM
DFA spammers aside, I'm not sure why people complain about the heavy stance. With its strength comes its weaknesses.

The only advantage of the red stance is its striking power and a moderate guard breaking ability.

Disadvantages include slow swing speed, long recovery time and the inability to chain together attacks, other than the DFA. This creates a situation where the player must know how and when to use each stroke available. Timing is a huge issue, one that some people cannot overcome. Let's not forget the eight force points one must spend to have access to this style.

Whether or not all this justifies the striking power of red style is debatable, but to call it dishonourable is silly. Just like everything else in the game it is counterable. This includes the DFA, although the pinky-toe death property can be rather difficult to judge at times.

Also, any person, knowing that their opponent is down to 50 health, would be half-brained to use the red stance. During duels, and even FFA, if I know that I nailed someone with a strong hit, I will immediately switch to medium style to finish them off. It's MUCH easier to make contact using that style.

This argument reminds me of my arcade days playing Street Fighter 2 and most of its sequels. Arguments would rage on about a simple tactic - throwing - that was considered cheap. As we became better players, we realized that throwing is an important and valid part of the game's strategy.

I agree that the DFA should be toned down, but the rest of the red style is perfectly legitimate.

Ono-Sendai

GooglyMoogly
04-29-2002, 03:00 PM
Caster mentioned something in his post I think most people overlook. The RANGE of Red stance is the problem. I can avoid Heavy spammers all day long..but sometimes I get hit when Im not even close to them. Im sure some of this is lag, but it seems to me the range of the Red Stance is about twice that of the saber itself.

I don't use red stance. I find the fights much more exciting/challenging using yellow and blue with lots of acrobatics. Using these styles you have to be IN-THEIR-FACE to do damage, where as with heavy you need to be anywhere within about 10 game feet and you take damage. Lame.

If I see someone that spams this move I eventually refuse to fight them, simply because I find it boring. Heavy has it's place in dueling, but to be used exclusively or even close to exclusively is just simply lame.

As soon as someone makes a mod that uses blue/yellow only, it's going on my server.

Kataarn
04-29-2002, 03:08 PM
I don't really have a problem with ppl using the red stance, seeing as how I always use yellow, and can avoid any DFA they try to pull off (rolling is a wonderful thing). If nothing else, I force them to switch to a non-DFA stance if they know how to fight, or they end up running around in slow-headless-chicken mode, which is easy to pick off with side slashes and spins.

The cheap-move that I find annoying is the kick/push-dfa spam. Kick/push/pull needs to have a WAY shorter recovery time (it should actually be determined by how much you have invested in Jump). It is impossible to avoid this without being a Drain / Absorb wh0re.

That's what I find irritating about Red.

**EDIT**
@Googly:

I agree completely, and will take it one step further.

Hit detection needs help.

I've been hit by a saber when I was on the OTHER side of the person, to me, that's just plain wrong. I've also been hit when I was about, as you said, 10 game feet away from a DFA...that is also just plain wrong.

I will also take it further than patching the hit detection, and will say that one of the following needs to happen:

1) Remove the ability to rotate at the end of DFA.
2) Change the damage done by rotation at the end of DFA to regular touched-me-with-the-saber damage. All the massive damage should be done by the swing itself, as in when the down-swing comes in contact with you. At the completion of the downward arc, the damage is returned to regular 5-point run-into-saber-damage.

**END EDIT**

Ideaman
04-29-2002, 03:41 PM
If you don't like heavy,play holocron game mode,most people will have fast only.

Jiro Kage
04-29-2002, 03:47 PM
The most hilarious thing for me is when a person will do the heavy jump over and over. WHAM! They get a thrown saber in their face. Again, and again until they die. Next thing you hear is "Why don't you stop throwing and fight me". I can't help but laugh when I hear that.

Jahs
04-29-2002, 04:18 PM
I dont think heavy is overused, not on the servers I play on.
I play with heavy alot because Im not very skilled with normal or fast.

I think normal ist just pure luck. you go into a duel and hope you will hit something, that's like a spraying in cs. Heavy is more skill. But that seems to be mine opinion only.

besides, heavy is easy to dodge, I never use Heavy against heavy stancers...

Octavius
04-30-2002, 01:32 AM
I agree with GooglyMoogly. The prblem is most likely in the range. Perhaps it should even have a variable dmg raet depending on how far you are into the swing (if that is even possible).

My point is not that red is undefeatable. I have defeated it many times against a single opponent. My problem was, and still is, defeating a single opponent, when you ahve 3 or 4 more coming at you at the same time, all with heavy. You are gonna die, just face it.

My best method of beating a heavy user is with kicks. If i see someone coming in, usually i can tell in a split second what stance they are using. If it is heavy, rather than run, i run AT them, and kick. It usually knocks them on their rear, giving you a nice fat slice to their chest or head. But alas, i have been thwarted many a time when I am doing that very thing by a few other people on his team who decide to stop me by all of them doing a forward/downward heavy slash. Very powerful, and hard to avoid.

I do think that red can take some skill. And that those that use it are not all whores. But some are, and often you can tell who they are. THey are the ones jumping around the room, repeatedly swinging heavy. And what is more, they are awesome at vulture kills. -- you know the ones - where you are already in a fight with one or two people, and this guy comes u behind you, getting you before you have a chance to even notice him. Often these same guys are the ones that run like cheetahs when you take chase at them or manage to get some kind of dmg on them.

All i am saying, is that people should see the value in using more than heavy. In my opinion, heavy is an augment style, to be used selectively when the time is fitting. Not to be used exclusively.

Myself i use yellow, often switching to blue for fast attacks in a heated battle, or red to finish someone who is already near the ropes. Chaining red onto the end of a yellow combo is very VERY useful. But as someone else said, and i agree, red should never e used exclusively.

On a side note - perhaps i will have to teach myself the techniques of using heavy more, as it seems to be a growing trend in TFFA at least. If you can get your entire team in one place, and make the majority of them use heavy, you can almost always win, and usually by a landslide...
(to clarify, the games i talk of, are saber only, force powers turned on... Often i do not have push available due to being drained... So if anyone else has good methods for defeating red, post them, i am interested to find out...)

h71y6
04-30-2002, 01:43 AM
The truth:

Heavy will dominate in FFAs but will not do so in Duels.

toolboi
04-30-2002, 01:53 AM
in FFA its hard to beat heavy... of course in FFA I grab a gun and go on a rampage ;)

People SO under estimate the power of the repeater and flak cannon (flechette weapon my ass), and even the imperial rifle and wookie crossbow, when in primary fire. I constantly see guys run up to me, go to take a swing, then get ripped apart by my flack cannon (too bad they dont gib like in UT). Of course secondary is useful too, especially for those DFA bastards ;)

And yes, in a duel situation blue is VERY effective against red. You can run in, get three hits and roll out easily before a red swing gets to you.