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View Full Version : The one adjustment that fixes everything.


Flash25
04-28-2002, 04:40 PM
Well, maybe not everything, but a lot. I think that the speed of the back pedal should be reduced. The biggest complaints on this board are that drain works too fast, the red stance is too strong, alt fire on certain guns is too powerful. The problem really isn't with all of those things. The problem is that people can back up too fast.

As it currently stands, back peddling is not that much slower than the forward sprint. What this leads to is the use of "risky" techniques while maintaining relative safety. For instance, one can use many of the hardly block able, high damaging swings from the red stance and still safely evade long enough to reset and take another swing. This makes the red stance, in the hands of just a proficient user, the most powerful tool in the game.

Think about how the drainers operate. They drain you from far away; run backwards, by the time you get close enough to swing, they grip you. If back peddling were reduced in speed, you could catch them before they gripped.

People often complain about absorb. Absorb allows you to negate anything being used on you while you back peddle away a regain your bearings or force power and reenter the fight. If you can't out run someone by back peddling, absorb can be reduced in effectiveness.

The bottom line is, it is much too easy to avoid people, especially by back peddling. If the speed were reduced, I think the mp game would be much more balanced.

Kyth'emos
04-28-2002, 05:10 PM
while it might help, it isn't a solution, I can use drain in the middle of a firefight in fact thats usually when I do. So I am right there fighting and chargeing while I drain, but I don't use it that often.

Who the hell complains about absorb ????? and why ??

SnowMongoose
04-28-2002, 05:26 PM
The only people who complain about drain are no skill dark side whores who have no saber skills and as such, are unable to beat the light sider who sabers w/ absorb on.

Thats about it!

Snow

nabroc
04-28-2002, 05:31 PM
sorry I hardly agree, maybe backpeddling should be reduced in speed but it won't fix any of the problems mentioned. It wouldn't fix the red stance since this will work both ways, someone using the medium or light stance would have problems backing of and out of the range from a strong swing. Btw I would see the red stance any more deadly then the medium or light "in the hands of a proficiant user", also you don't need to wait till a swing of a red stance ends and then go to the offensive. Since red swings are so slow, it's possible to ID the type of slash and move in from a safe direction, being able to land a hit with medium or light without getting hit.
Most drainers using the drain-grip combo won't waste time running backwards, they'll be aggressive and rather move in (to avoid the drainy of slipping away or letting them regain force to turn absorb on during the grip). The only problem I have with drain is not being drained to fast, or it's range, but it drasticly lowers my fps rate with or without me being in the arc of the drain :( (now that could be fixed ;)).
I play using the light force most of the time and I can assure you that me backing up has nothing to do with absorb on or off - infact most of the time I turn absorb on is when I'll go offensive or while being in a fire/saber/force fight while being flashed, drained or gripped and rather close in (if I'm not in range already) then backpeddal. You don't want absorb on while trying to regain forcepowers (try it and see how it works), if you have enough force to turn absorb on and backpeddal over some distance (eg longer then 1 or 2 sec) you'll have enough force left in the 1st place and don't need any replenishment.

to be honest I would think that toning down backpeddling speed will hit the whiners the hardest. Personally I don't have a problem with any of the game's features and implementations. I've experienced that anything has a counter and people with various styles can 'rule' a server. Practice and speed, the right mix of force powers (regardless of side), situation awarness while being able to adapt to what's going on around you on the spot is what classifies the best players I've seen so far - changing certain elements won't alter that.

Blamer
04-28-2002, 10:36 PM
Actually this would just lead to kicking being another big move that everyone complains about.

DarkDroid
04-29-2002, 02:46 AM
The fact of the matter is those who can diversify and make good use of all the skills will always have an advantage over those who have a static method. Who's the cheaper player? I'd say the person who only uses one strategy. The player who can use everything well (and I don't mean relying on all force powers either) can in the long run be more difficult to fight, cuz no matter what you do you'll get countered. At least in those cases it's because of the individual's skill. How do you get around both diverse and spam players? Simple. Play more and get better.;)

jeccy
04-29-2002, 01:29 PM
I think this boils down to an inbalancement of Force use, rather than the speed of the backpedal. This as far as I see it all depends on who you are fighting, considering that you are going to face multiple types of strategies on the net. You could break it down to 3 catergories;

1 - The Beginner's Guide to Force Use (so far as I've seen online, I'm going to be bitched at so much with this :D).

"Ohhhhhhh, let's get the lightening, push them off the gaps, fast run should do it". Most players who start off first aint got a clue of how effective they're Force choices are going to be. So let's go for the most visually appealing choices and see if they work. These people end up in a ditch most of the times, as most people end up Choke throwing them down a hole, or while they are typing in "That's cheating, stop it" you break open they're skull with a red-swing overarm. Either that or they use Heal more than your local Hospital after an England in Europe football match (oohh, bitchy).

2 - The Intermediate

"Okay, so they've worked out the Force Push stops the Grip, or Absorb cancels that. Ok, I'll use a mix of Push, Choke, Lightening and Pull. That'll freak them out." After a couple of games on the net you start to notice that certain Force powers beat others face down, and you start to develop a few ways of showing off (Force Pull into an uppercut slice is a classic example). Choke grip into a
hole is there again, but the nightmare scenario is being gripped after someone has drained you ("big gun, gimme a big gun, BIG GUuuuuuunn.......<flump>". Normal Force abilities give the user an even chance of survival.

3 - The Advanced "I can't log off the game" Scenario

"So we've got Absorb, Drain, Grip, Dark Rage, ho ho ho , I pity them already....." type setup. Players who get these right can pretty much incapacitate anyone into being restricted to a phaser and creaming their pants as they're heads get imploded by lightsaber fun. The Drain is a git to the intermediate players, the begginers go "Why doesn't Push work?", the pillocks.

Only thing now is that you could have the Force skills of an advanced, you may be able to absorb the lightening, yet the push is too instantaneous. Off that ledge and into the frag list you go.

The point I hear you ask? The Lightening backrunners are newbies who have only just found the "Force Use" button and try to fry as much as poss.....I do agree with Flash25 saying that it is bad that they can maintain damaging while staying as far away as poss...but there are ways around it depending on your setup. Maybe on the first game patch they will look into this and round it up, they did with Quake 3 and Elite Forces; you're not going to get it perfectly right the first time.

Flash25
04-30-2002, 08:28 PM
To tell you the truth, I don't really have a problem with the force powers. I personally think that they are balanced quite well. My biggest gripe is with the red stance. I was playing on a server today and was doing quite well, 6-1 to be exact. This new player comes in and wins 4 in a row using the red stance, he beat me twice. For some reason, in our third fight, he switched to the yellow stance. I proceeded to beat him silly.

The problem is that this guy had a lot less skill than his score indicated. Sure, he could use the red stance well, but there it isn't hard to do with a little practice. The one weakness the red stance has, slow strikes, is rendered inert by the fact that you can back away with enough speed to allow yourself to not only reset for another swing, but block any incoming strikes.

To counter the red stance with any of the others, you need a much higher skill level. Someone using the red stance is twice as powerful as someone of the same level who isn't using the red stance is. Simply slowing down backward movement would go a long way towards balancing the saber styles, which were supposed to be balanced in the first place.

[QGA]Vertigo
05-01-2002, 11:20 PM
Sure, but keep in mind that using the red stance costs another quantity of force-power...

EZ|Lestat
05-01-2002, 11:47 PM
There's also the matter that Raven designed the heavy stance for 1v1 fighting, so it should be more effective in duels. =\

Flash25
05-02-2002, 05:25 PM
Originally posted by [QGA]Vertigo
Sure, but keep in mind that using the red stance costs another quantity of force-power...

A very minor cost. In fact, the opportunity cost of not taking the red stance in lieu of 8 force points spent somewhere else is great.

As far as the red stance being designed for duels, I'm inclined to think that the descriptions in the manual apply mostly to the SP game. You are correct though, the red stance is the best in duels. You know what else? The red stance is the best at 2 vs. 1, 3 vs. 1, 2 vs. 2, etc..

There is nothing that the other stances have over the red stance other than the speed of the swing. Anyone who has played an experienced player knows that the speed of the swing is pretty much a non-factor due to the ability of a player to avoid getting hit simply by maneuvering.