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View Full Version : enough crying about heavy sabers


SpaceMonkey1315
04-29-2002, 02:00 PM
you know, when you complain about a heavy saber stance only taking 1 or 2 hits, there's something wrong. Is it me, or when i watch starwars movies, most people die from 1 to 2 saber hits...a lightsaber can cut through virtually anything, so how is a human any different. If people have such a hard time fighting heavy saber, then do what i do...either counter it with heavy saber yourself, or go light stance and attack when their saber is out of the way...theres too many threads crying about how heavy saber ruins the game, and thats only true if you suck...learn to play, then complain

Space Monkey

:mob:

Rogue74
04-29-2002, 02:37 PM
I agree. Like I said in the other whiny threads; would you rather I kill you with one or two hits, or with 10?

I like to switch through multiple stances to keep people guessing, but I think some people (n00bs?) are doggedly staying in medium or light just to prove that it will win...

SpaceMonkey1315
04-29-2002, 04:01 PM
exactly...noobs are mostly the people who complain, because they havent countered it yet...not our problem...they can get their little friends to agree to a "light and medium" stance pact, and leave us alone in the fourms...i switch most of the time, but whenever i kill someone with heavy, i'm marked for death

Space Monkey

:mob:

GooglyMoogly
04-29-2002, 04:06 PM
It's a game.

Most people that saber WANT to have a good length battle with lots of excitement. Heavy DOES NOT provide that. It's boring.

Leave it up to the masses to find the lowest common denominator and abuse it to all hell. I don't care if you use heavy all the time. Go ahead. Just don't think you're getting respect from anyone regarding your uber skills.

There are two kinds of players in this game, those who want a challenge and those that want to win. People that want a challenge will usually mix it up and maybe throw in a strong attack every once in a while. People that want to win just use heavy or abuse force powers.

It has nothing to do with skill...ANYONE can use heavy all the time and come out on top and I'd bet only 25% of their kills actually came from skill. Try using tactics and style and you won't always win, but at least you'll have a good time.

UriDiuM
04-29-2002, 04:08 PM
I.m a noob, i love the whole system its not as if its unblockable.
Hell i been playing a week only took me 30 mins to work out it was very easy to dodge. Yeah some lucky kills come out when it touches you but then so does going to light or medium and piroeting through a huge fight. Usually grab a kill that way too.
It all seems quite balanced to me, not to mention the hours and hours of playtesting the game would have gone through. I cant see the "Lets try this see what happens" approach to a game as big as this.

SpaceMonkey1315
04-29-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by GooglyMoogly
It's a game.

Most people that saber WANT to have a good length battle with lots of excitement. Heavy DOES NOT provide that. It's boring.

Leave it up to the masses to find the lowest common denominator and abuse it to all hell. I don't care if you use heavy all the time. Go ahead. Just don't think you're getting respect from anyone regarding your uber skills.

There are two kinds of players in this game, those who want a challenge and those that want to win. People that want a challenge will usually mix it up and maybe throw in a strong attack every once in a while. People that want to win just use heavy or abuse force powers.

It has nothing to do with skill...ANYONE can use heavy all the time and come out on top and I'd bet only 25% of their kills actually came from skill. Try using tactics and style and you won't always win, but at least you'll have a good time.

right, wonderful explination...because NO ONE could POSSIBIBLY ever dodge a big, lumbering heavy saber attack...and dont even try to say there isnt any counters...if you want a long match with someone who is using heavy, then dont run directly in front of them to be slaughtered, and come in quickly and hit them before they can regroup...man, how can so many people expect people to play on THEIR terms when its a public server...heavy was created for a reason, and it can be countered, so get off its nuts
:slsaber:
(uh oh, i hope hes not using heavy stance, cause that would be mean)

Derath
04-29-2002, 04:22 PM
"Heavy DOES NOT provide that. It's boring."

What a load of crap. I have done testing with friends and it is just as easy to win a battle against a heavy user if you use umm TACTICS. I like the different stances, because it adds more fun to the game.

Learning to fight against a heavy attacker is a nice challenge.

Derath

Kataarn
04-29-2002, 04:22 PM
Eh, you completely missed Googly's point.

He's saying that fighting a red-stancer is boring, because it's dodging the same bloody move all day long. It gets repetitive, irritating, and plain boring.

If you do 1 move or combo all day long, you have no skill. End of story.

Jiro Kage
04-29-2002, 04:43 PM
Part of the other problem is that it's almost an exploit. How? When you finish a heavy move such as the leap of death, the blade, in a resting position, still does the full amount of damage. You simply can't get close a reliable amount of time without getting hit. Of course, you can throw the saber in their face, but sometimes it blocks still and others times it might be NF.


Using heavy repeatedly and not changing tactics is retarded, boring, and breaks from the style of the game. I personally switch up during the match, sometimes I switch to heavy just to try to get a chance swing in.

I just think people should not rely on it so heavily since it is boring to dodge the same move over and over, no skill being shown at all.

Tekken
04-29-2002, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Kataarn
Eh, you completely missed Googly's point.

He's saying that fighting a red-stancer is boring, because it's dodging the same bloody move all day long. It gets repetitive, irritating, and plain boring.

If you do 1 move or combo all day long, you have no skill. End of story.

I agree with the last line.

As to Googly's point, I find it most gratifying to beat a one move spammer in any stance. The trick is, I try to beat them a different way each time. Keeps it fresh for me.

I'll try push one time, pull the next, kickflip the next, etc. My favorite kill was one where I just kickflipped him to death. My next fav was using Blue to carve him up, and letting him know I used Blue to do it. hehe. I'm no uber-jedi, but I have my fun. Which is the point.

It's only as boring as you make it, imo....

SpaceMonkey1315
04-29-2002, 11:14 PM
I just think people should not rely on it so heavily since it is boring to dodge the same move over and over, no skill being shown at all.

you know, if you keep dodging the same move "over and over", youd think that the person would try something different...we arent playing against bots, were playing aganist people, who realize when their tactics dont work...and if they still try, just leave them alone, if you see them off in the distance, dont go running up to them expecting a change...play on your own terms, but dont make people change theirs

Space Monkey

:mob:

solo2070
04-30-2002, 01:04 AM
come on in essence every one is a newb to this game cause it isn;t that old it is just that soem play it more. Well i am a counter stike fan adn i can see that it is simmilar to camping ya know ahti did with campers i dit one of a few thing i would camp (boring) i would sneak up behind them and kill them or i would nade them . why not quit whining and do something about it . try useing force persuasion and going invisable of try snading back witha rocket launcher and shoot them with it when ever they do that or here is anther great i dea quit whining on the forums and get better so you kill them. i mean allt eh good saber fighters switch back and forth betwen style try it also you heavy only people it is really not any fun. and one last thing why stand right next to someone when they are swinging why not wait fdor them to bring back that long swing and use force choke of push or throw your lkight saber the things you can do are endless if people would quit whining about it.

Hibiki Kensaki
04-30-2002, 01:08 AM
any decent person can own a heavy whore...


all u do is wait till after a dfa or a long swing and go in for a kill... simple as pie..

Kurgan
04-30-2002, 08:01 PM
If the sabers kill in 1-2 hits, people complain that they are lame and cheap. If they kill in 5-10 hits, people complain that they are unrealistic and useless.

Thankfully, the sabers have three stances, which anyone is free to use if they assign the (tiny) number of force points required to Saber Attack.

Jiro Kage
04-30-2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by SpaceMonkey1315


you know, if you keep dodging the same move "over and over", youd think that the person would try something different...we arent playing against bots, were playing aganist people, who realize when their tactics dont work...and if they still try, just leave them alone, if you see them off in the distance, dont go running up to them expecting a change...play on your own terms, but dont make people change theirs

Space Monkey

:mob:


That's what I said earlier in the post if you note. I often play people that simply use heavy, so I turn around and simply use throw, because it is an effective counter. Then I get called a "throw wh0re" or something suitably lame such as that.

What most of the valid complaints are is that there are not enough penalties for swinging with the heavy stance based on how much damage it is. Heavy should be a nice slowdown and long recovery for the fact it can kill you at full life with 50 shields on a single swing. (100 shields? It's happened to me). In addition, the damage effect lingers way too long on some moves. That's what most of the complaints are about.

Borf
04-30-2002, 11:00 PM
Heavies are whores. Theres no skill in their actions and they're there for the kills not for the fun of the game.

I agree with Googly completely and i'm suprised there aren't more people complaining about em... but heavy is a legal stance not a bug, even though it does have it's buggy advantages, it aint that hard to avoid being hit. A kick in the face is always a good deterrent...

Anybody can rack up enoumous kills by running into a crowd and swinging their heavy stance sabre wildly... The real skills are seen in the people using light or medium who still can chop up a crowd single handedly. The only time i ever lose a duel is to a fluke single heavy hit.



Borf[SaberSociety] - Medium stance player

SpaceMonkey1315
04-30-2002, 11:24 PM
Originally posted by Jiro Kage



That's what I said earlier in the post if you note. I often play people that simply use heavy, so I turn around and simply use throw, because it is an effective counter. Then I get called a "throw wh0re" or something suitably lame such as that.

What most of the valid complaints are is that there are not enough penalties for swinging with the heavy stance based on how much damage it is. Heavy should be a nice slowdown and long recovery for the fact it can kill you at full life with 50 shields on a single swing. (100 shields? It's happened to me). In addition, the damage effect lingers way too long on some moves. That's what most of the complaints are about.

dont worry about getting called a throw whore because theyre pimping the heavy stance...i dont see that many throw whore complaints in my games, but if they DO call you a throw whore, call him a heavy pimp or what have you, then do what you have to to keep an overly abusive heavy user away from you...i'm not saying your wrong, and heavy can get annoying, but it can be countered and can be killed easily

NewBJedi
04-30-2002, 11:28 PM
Since one of the biggest complaints about heavy stance is that they can just simply swing and rack up the points, how about this:

A person who kills with a light stance gets twice the points as a medium, and medium twice the points as a heavy.

Basically a light stance person gets 4 times the points as a heavy stance person - so that person is rewarded for having to use skill.

toolboi
04-30-2002, 11:32 PM
the first argument in this thread does not work. Yes, in them ovies sabers kill in one hit, but you know what? So would blue, the point is that people complain about balence.

It is unbalenced.

Thats not to say that a skillful player cant win against red, I do it all the time (not that Im that good, mind you), but red is a VERY easy stance to both use and kill with, too easy. Now this may change if they can fix collision detection, and it may also change if they change some odd things (I think they should give more sheilds, make all sabers kill in one hit, but make each stance do different damage against the sheilds, like in the training sequence in Dune where they guy explains that a slow hard press will slice right through a sheild). Also red does JUST too much damage. 90 damage would be good, but 100 it just too much. It makes it so that you eaither have to keep draining or use red stance when fighting Paladin players (red and heal), pretty much eliminating the use of the lightside without whoring red stance.

Now, if you want to beat a red player, its all about cornering them. You have to get them in a position where they cant retreat, and then slash them to death with blue (while draining of course so that they cant heal) while they try to get a single red slash out. However this is where the balence gets a little wonky because it takes NO skill to run and do the 3 slashes that red has, but it takes quite a lot of skill to dodge their attacks and corner them. Oh well, I suppose that thats realistic...

And yes, fighting red is BORRIIIIINNNNGGGG

SpaceMonkey1315
05-01-2002, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by NewBJedi
Since one of the biggest complaints about heavy stance is that they can just simply swing and rack up the points, how about this:

A person who kills with a light stance gets twice the points as a medium, and medium twice the points as a heavy.

Basically a light stance person gets 4 times the points as a heavy stance person - so that person is rewarded for having to use skill.

so the idea is for light to give you 4 points, medium to give you 2 points, and heavy to give you 1 point, but the problem is the guns, where would they stand for points, and also, everyone would start using light to get it up...most of the problem with heavy is the damage, but a lot of people like to use medium stance, maybe if heavy was 1, medium was 2, and light was 3 just to even it out, but i still dont know where guns would stand

Space Monkey

:mob:

ps to toolboi, how would every saber is 1 kill work, everyone i know would switch to light stance

Territo
05-01-2002, 01:10 AM
That is just completely retarted, saber styles giving different kill amounts, I would be out buying a new game. :fett:

uteboy
05-01-2002, 01:37 AM
Originally posted by SpaceMonkey1315

if you want a long match with someone who is using heavy, then dont run directly in front of them to be slaughtered, and come in quickly and hit them before they can regroup

Except that when I did exactly this once I got called a coward and a noob for not standing still and letting him hit me. (He did manage to beat me before he started to abuse me).

After the insults, I dropped out of the game, attached to a remote console, abused the **** out of him and finished with "oh and it pays not to insult the admin" - oops

Jiro Kage
05-01-2002, 01:52 AM
Originally posted by SpaceMonkey1315


dont worry about getting called a throw whore because theyre pimping the heavy stance...i dont see that many throw whore complaints in my games, but if they DO call you a throw whore, call him a heavy pimp or what have you, then do what you have to to keep an overly abusive heavy user away from you...i'm not saying your wrong, and heavy can get annoying, but it can be countered and can be killed easily


I don't worry, I just kill them. :D

GooglyMoogly
05-01-2002, 02:03 AM
Ok so I rambled a bit, and I should have mentioned I don't have a problem killing them. At least one person (Katarn) got my point.

I CAN kill the heavy spammers very easily...it's just boring....I like to get inside and mix it up. The tactics required to beat a heavy spammer are not my idea of fun...plain and simple...my opinion, take it or leave it.

As I stated earlier..continue playing that way...it irritates me sure, but I can't make anyone stop using it. I just wish more people would use it *skillfully* (I've met some who do) versus the same old DFA or wide right swing....yawn.

acdcfanbill
05-01-2002, 06:53 AM
the main reason i like heavy is it produces the same swings every time... and you dont spin around like a fool :D the 100 damage per swing is just a bonus...

Raxius
05-01-2002, 07:17 AM
The idea of giving different styles more points just would not work. People would run in, hit somebody with a non-one hit kill attack, so their down to 10, then switch to blue to get the last 10 off fast. They would then get 4 points for using blue 4 5 secs maybe? Anyway you look at it, it is a legal part of the game, it was put in to be used, so stop complaining, and play the damn game. There is a counter to everything. It may not work every single time, but almost nothing does in our lives. Except the fact that taxes take to much damn money!

http://home.cc.umanitoba.ca/~umtaitmd/images/raxius.gif

Vestril
05-01-2002, 09:42 AM
The idea of giving different styles more points just would not work. People would run in, hit somebody with a non-one hit kill attack, so their down to 10, then switch to blue to get the last 10 off fast. They would then get 4 points for using blue 4 5 secs maybe? Anyway you look at it, it is a legal part of the game, it was put in to be used, so stop complaining, and play the damn game. There is a counter to everything. It may not work every single time, but almost nothing does in our lives. Except the fact that taxes take to much damn money!


We also die.

:D

Oh, and I'm a medium stance user and though some people who use heavy have almost no skill (DFA spammers who I'm sure just stole a scrift from their local programmer friend) most people who use it are very skilled. I consider Medium to be more fun because I find heavy frustratingly slow, I don't know if its better, I just don't get any enjoyment playing with it. Against it, however, I can have some interesting matches, it took me a lot of practice to get skilled against heavy players.

Whipp05
05-01-2002, 10:41 AM
well i use heavy alot (whore) but have you ever seen a fight with two fast stancers and using heal skill... and you call heavy boring those fights never end..

i think half the people i seen fighting in blue and yellow stance are really pretty random with the button pressing and find it impossible to kill a person using a measured heavy swipe... if you have uber skills with medium and light you should not lose to me or any other heavy whores :)

Vestril
05-01-2002, 11:04 AM
i think half the people i seen fighting in blue and yellow stance are really pretty random with the button pressing and find it impossible to kill a person using a measured heavy swipe... if you have uber skills with medium and light you should not lose to me or any other heavy whores

I totally agree with that, the headless chicken folk seem to be out there as much as the DFA spammers, its all rather boring, I find... I personally think that all the stances are about equal on an NF Duel server where its only about the sabers...On FF servers Heavy dominates thanks to heal...

SteelFury
05-01-2002, 11:06 AM
could'nt agree more googly.
mixing it up with medium and light stances are always the best duels. IMO
heavy is just plain crap... look out here comes the DFA move.AGAIN!!! pulease. trouble is tho, that is all your reduced to doing with heavy stance, the ol' hit and hope moves.
most players that use heavy against me.. and i dont just mean noobs get their arse kicked royaly. like someone said b4, the throw tactic is often a favoured counter... and boy do they moan there arses off about it.
to all heavy spammers out there. at least TRY to vary your tactics a little plz. but plz keep using it, i kind of like whooping you easily.
Steelfury.

WarteX
05-01-2002, 11:23 AM
I really like heavy stance becuase its more vader style, but.... u really dont hit harder becuase u swing slower, I think that u should swing faster and the damage should b abit less devestating, but still effective. A good way to counter a heavy is to tease him and make him go for a swing when its above his head or at the side of his legs (depending on whitch swing), throw it. Well most of u r aware of this tactic but those "noobs" who complain so much about heavies this can b useful :)

TasamBladefire
05-01-2002, 11:33 AM
Use whatever the heck ya want. When im looking to end a duel quickly, to get to a harder opponent, friend, etc, ill use heavy. When im looking to enjoy the duel as much as I can, ill switch over to yellow, or maybe blue if they are using heavy.

Its fun using any stance, so people only complain when they SUCK. :)

Untill next, Tasam.

Jedi-Bert
05-01-2002, 12:04 PM
I am a yellow-stancer myself, and i dont think heavy is any more dangerous than any other

i use medium because it gives you decent responce time (unlike heavy) and a decent arc (unlike light)

if you go around swinging like a moron, then of course heavy will beat you, heavy FORCES you to time your attacks, while in medium and light you must learn to be patient and time your strikes yourself

and heavy is not as intimadting with protect lvl 3 on anyway :D a nice thing to have handy when the person has both heavy stance and uber-l33t skillz

Jedi-Bert
05-01-2002, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by acdcfanbill
the main reason i like heavy is it produces the same swings every time... and you dont spin around like a fool :D the 100 damage per swing is just a bonus...

You dont spin around in medium either, as long as you dont hold the button down

i dont see how people talk about randomness

direction+tap button=same swing EVERY TIME

direction(s)+hold button=Ballet

Dvlos
05-01-2002, 01:23 PM
I don't know what some of you are yapping about, just because heavy can kill in 1-2 hits doesn't mean the fights are quick. Sometimes to combat heavy I'll switch to light or medium, but then again... the people that complain about heavy are probably the same ones that:

CAMP

Run away healing

Run away healing/shielding

Run behind someone fighting 1-2 other people and get a quick kill.


---------------------

Heavy is not all powerful it leaves you VERY vunerable at times, if you have ANY FPS skills whatsoever you should see that during certain swings a PUSH or PULL is devastating as it 80% of the times knocks them down.

Don't like heavy? Turn on force protection and turn on the lightsaber version of a chainsaw (light stance)

toolboi
05-01-2002, 04:21 PM
Im a yellow as well, ut Im starting to use red. Its just too powerful, all you have to do it attack, then at your pinacle run backwards. They cant get near you because of the 45 deg. hit angle of red attacks and it does an almost instant kill.

This is especially efective against those pesky heal characters who run away and heal everytime they get a scratch.

Oh, and out of pure curiosity, how many of you people complaining about red stance do heal at every cut? If you do you should expect red.