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SeriousBlack
04-29-2002, 06:23 PM
Never have problems with other drainwhores.

Whenever I run across them it's just shove. Why do people get so upset? Any light sider can just flip off my main attack with absorb.

Kurgan
04-29-2002, 09:43 PM
People get upset because they're selfish, lazy, or both.

They want to win every time, and don't want to practice new techniques to overcome the gaps in their startegies, so they'd rather complain and whine and accuse people of cheating or being "whores" when they don't win.

Or they're selfish and they want everything to go their way no matter what. Everyone else is simply wrong, since they have to be right. All they care about is if they have fun...

Dracofyre
04-29-2002, 10:14 PM
I've actually found that the best way to deal with drain whores, since they have to get close to you to finish you off with grip or saber, is drop launch something of the explosive variety at them like a rocket or thermal grenade. All of a sudden the balance of power tips in your favor because the drainer has to make the choice of taking a hell of a lot of dmg and attempting the grip, or backing away giving you time to run and recharge.
Even though this is probably going to get me flamed, you've got to admit that the people getting screwed the most by the drain whores are the saberists. POWER TO THE GUNNERS!

Icebreaker
04-29-2002, 10:29 PM
Doesn't work in duels.

The problem with drain is that not only it does an offensive move, it also heals you, WHILE COSTING ALMOST NOTHING.

Of course, you've heard it a thousand times, and since you are defending drain, I presume you use it.

Jhenne
05-01-2002, 05:04 PM
i play duels mostly. thought i'd step in.

mostly i play no force, on force servers i'll use a variety of tactics but usually it comes down to me draining the other person. though i never drain/grip or drain/lightning. i just drain/attack.

for one, the only decent counter to drain is drain. so thats one big reason i use it. and 90% of the time i DONT use it unless the other person is using force excessively, or is using drain/grip on me etc. basically i use it to turn the match into a no force match.

as for the healing though, drain only heals you if the enemy has force. so if someone is constantly draining you in a duel just spend your own force if your worried about them healing themselves off it. your force empty=no health for them.

Icebreaker
05-01-2002, 06:45 PM
One flaw:

You with no force = no health for them = BIG OPPERTUNITY FOR THEM TO GRIP

Kuroshi
05-01-2002, 07:51 PM
Hasn't happened to me yet, but I think if I got gripped with no force power left I'd probably pull out a big gun that does splash damage.

aural-6
05-01-2002, 07:55 PM
i personally think drain has no right to exist in duels. thus, i usually duel on no-force or limited-force servers. i'm sorry, but the "ready ... set ... DRAIN!" game isn't enjoyable at all, especially on the smaller, circular duel maps, where avoidance is very difficult.

however, i've learned to play the drain game, and if playing on a force server, tend to only use those tactics against those who abuse them.

leelink
05-01-2002, 08:00 PM
here is the big problem. Its not a problem in ffa or ctf, but it is a problem in duels because, someone with drain doesnt allow a equal playing field. they can keep your force power at zero! while continueing to heal themselves. I cannot heal myself and drain reaches across the entire map in most duels. as light side once you have drained me there is nothing further I can do, but saber fight you and i have to work twice as hard at killing you while you continue to heal yourself. THIS IS WHY DRAIN IS BROKEN. anyone using this method is unstopable. you could take a hit and then run, drain, run, drain, then come back with full health and if i hit you again, you can repeat, while I would be stuck at whatever health i was at. Anyone who cannot see this is a disadvantage has not been on the other side of a drain whore.

tomservo51
05-01-2002, 09:04 PM
Originally posted by Jhenne
i play duels mostly. thought i'd step in.

mostly i play no force, on force servers i'll use a variety of tactics but usually it comes down to me draining the other person. though i never drain/grip or drain/lightning. i just drain/attack.

for one, the only decent counter to drain is drain. so thats one big reason i use it. and 90% of the time i DONT use it unless the other person is using force excessively, or is using drain/grip on me etc. basically i use it to turn the match into a no force match.

as for the healing though, drain only heals you if the enemy has force. so if someone is constantly draining you in a duel just spend your own force if your worried about them healing themselves off it. your force empty=no health for them.

Yeah, thats when they GRIP you!

BigMexican
05-02-2002, 06:53 AM
goddam ... absorb ... it costs a total of 9 points?! less than drain, so you can then get an advantage over your opponent by neutralising his drain for less points than he spent on it.

simply switch on absorb at the start of the duel. if he drains you, use the force gain you get from soaking up his power to pull+kick, push, dfa, whatever him. if he throws any force powers at you, you can use your spare force to heal yourself, and then regen the force through his force attack.

in my opinion, absorb is WAY better than drain for neutralising force. your enemy cant use force on you, but you can on them (to a very limited extent). if they're stupid enough to try and use force on you, you can just throw their wasted force power back at them ...

nabroc
05-02-2002, 07:49 AM
yeah, learn how to use absorb. I play a lighty all the time and the only problem I have with drain is it lowering my fps drastically like nothing else out there (below 5-10 sometimes). I wouldn't go as far as saying absorb is way better then drain for denying force, since a light force user still has to rely on his ability with weapons, especially on a saber only server. Using absorb you need to be quick, cause once you'll run out your dead meat (gainst anyone who halfway knows how to play the dark side).
Sure you get drained and griped sometimes, but I get more then just a revenge on any map with ledges :D where you can move in on dark force users with absorb and push/pull em off. Besides the low-fps effect, I don't have any beef at all with drain.

Huann
05-03-2002, 02:06 PM
Unfortunately if your opponent knows how to use drain well even absorb is of little value. I recently had an embarrasing series of defeats to a player named "Caq in your mouth" who made excellent use of drain, despite the fact that I employed absorb. The simple fact is absorb has a timer and drain does not, even though you can quickly turn absorb on and off it only takes half a second for drain to completely strip you of your force powers. In the end committing yourself to using absorb seriously disables the use of your other force powers, unless you're lucky enough to intercept a force based attack while absorb is actually on. All a drain player has to do is back away and wait for absorb to fall or simply wait for you to turn it off.

toolboi
05-03-2002, 03:53 PM
i personally think drain has no right to exist in duels.

And heal...? Drain is the only way a darksider can counter heal.

someone with drain doesnt allow a equal playing field

Actually its an unequal playing feild without it too, heal any one? Also, an honorable darksider (yes, we do exist) will not drain then use some lit or grip combo (thats just WAY too cheap), but rather use drain as an equalizer to prevent you from healing or using force.

fight you and i have to work twice as hard at killing you while you continue to heal yourself

Sounds like me complaining about the light side ;)
The life you get from continually draining is virtually nothing. Continually draining will at most give you back 50 health after the initial drain (which tops you out usually).

if he drains you, use the force gain you get from soaking up his power

One of the few things that I think need to be fixed with drain: Drain doesnt add t oyour mana when you have absorb on.

it only takes half a second for drain to completely strip you of your force powers

Actually at the usual distance it takes 1.12s, which may seem like a short time, but in a duel is all the time in the world. Thats about the time a heavy swing takes, and about the time a fast 5 hit yellow combo takes. In that time its not hard to hit absorb (you DO bind it to keys around your control keys right? Because if you dont you have no right to complain).

Now while were complaining Id just like ot say that absorb and heal are way too strong. Absorb should not effect push/pull or else should act like a ylsamari (sp?) and not allow you to do force. And heal, well heal heals too much with too little force. A full force gauge can provide around 400hp, making it WAY too hard to kill off force users without using red stance.

Huann
05-03-2002, 05:31 PM
I havent done any parsing but Im fairly certain it takes more than 1.12 seconds to pull off 5 yellow stance swings, not to mention the fact that the you can move and drain at the same time. However, given my above objections Im still the first one to admit that if drain is changed in any way heal should also be modified. For example, three ways of adjusting drain could be: A) remove or reduce the healing component of the ability. B) slightly change either the rate at which drain absorbs force or adjust the distance at which it can reach. C) adjust the amount of force drain requires to completely empty a players bar, either change it to a 1:1 ratio ie 100 points for 100 points or 75 for 100. In conjunction with the above changes modify force heal to something on the order of 100 points of force for 50 points of health at level 3.

LBaron
05-03-2002, 06:28 PM
The main problem with Drain is how efficent it is each hit takes up 1 force, at lvl 1 that is 1 force = 10 health while Heal is 3.5force=10health

at level 3 on each its 1force =20 health thats 60 health for three hits while Heal at level 3 is 3.5 force power for 50 health....see the problem? and the on top of that drain takes away force power from the target at a rate of about that equal to the number of health you gain.

What I do propose as a fix is that drain take 4 force points to use, subtract 4 force points from apponent (at lvl 1 power more as you put points into it) and give you health equal to a heal of that level. What do you think of that as a compromise?

p.s. all stats on force powers fount at http://strategy.jediknightii.net/ (http://strategy.jediknightii.net/)

leelink
05-04-2002, 01:50 AM
Here are a couple more key points about drain. (IN DUEL)

It leaves you oppenent defenseless while healing themselves and having enought force power left to use force pull, push, grip, ect. Yes I could use absorb if i was able to anticipate drain evertime it was used. Though Everyone who has tried knows they are only prolonging thier fate as thier oppenent still has plenty of force left, because drain can be turned off as quickly as it came on. I cant even name a negative reason not to use drain.(impossible to counter in duel maps) Yes I could push you away, but in doing so I help you achieve your goal quicker. Once someone is drained fully there is no defense. Drain also takes more force power away from your oppenent then it does to use it, while healing them and leaving you defenseless. How off balance it that. by doing short spurts of drain you can keep me at zero while your force powers replenish to full. As I stated earlier, It is impossible for Light side to beat a skilled Dark Side drainer. I am not saying get rid of drain, but it does need to be nerfed in some way to give the game balance.

Flash25
05-04-2002, 02:32 AM
While playing on duel maps, I have noticed an interesting aspect about the relationship between absorb and drain. You don't really gain any force from the drain while absorb is on. All absorb really does is stop you from being drained, but very little is replenished. So, if you get drained to half your force power and then put up absorb, you have half your force power no matter how long you're drained from that point on. If he chooses to grip or push your, that's a different story.

What you have to do is turn absorb on at the beginning of the battle and then draw first blood. Once you do that, it is pure saber fighting from then on and you have the health advantage.

JAtM Trev
05-05-2002, 12:14 AM
I played a true drain whore the other day. Very annoying. The best fix I can think of that would leave drain effective but stop whoring is to alter the amount of force is costs.

The less force the victim has, the more force is costs to drain him. This makes sense realistically as that last bit of force would cling to the owner (theoretically) and would keep drain whores from sucking you dry. It would however limit the victim's ability to perform large powers like mind trick and protect effectively.

The trick would be coding that to work with a mutliple player drain.

ArtifeX
05-06-2002, 11:04 AM
When two players are of exactly the same skill level, then Dark powers are only slightly better than Light powers. This is if you accept that Drain is the main Dark power and Absorb is the main Light power.

In a FF match, your Force Pool is your real life. Your actual health and shield points become a secondary concern. If your opponent has Force and you don't, then you're dead already. Absorb effectively reduces the opponent's Force Pool to nothing with regard to offensive powers, just as using Drain would. The true advantage to drain comes from being a proactive power rather than a reactive power. Drain can be used instantaneously and at great range for any duration you wish as long as you have Force Power in your Pool. Absorb, on the other hand, must be turned on prior to an enemy Force attack to be effective. This means that a Light Side player must anticipate the actions of another player while the Dark Side player simply has to make sure he is within Draining range and that his opponent doesn't have Absorb turned on. This clearly puts the Dark Side player in control of the match from the outset.

Some Light Side players will say that just turning on Absorb before you get within Drain range and then attacking will tip the odds in your favor, but any Dark Sider worth his salt will have no problem avoiding you until all your power is used up. Turn that on its head ask yourself whether an experienced Light Sider can avoid Drain easily, and the answer is a definite, "no". This goes double for the more cramped (and poorly designed in my opinion) duel maps such as duel_pit and duel_carbon. The only maps where a Light Sider even stands a chance are duel_jedi and duel_bay. At least then there are some obstacles where Drain cannot reach you.

duel_carbon should be completely stripped from the map list, or redesigned, and re-released in the upcoming patch. It is cramped, the ceilings are too low, there are too many places that you can get stuck in, the lighting is poor (and innacurate to tESB, from which it was taken) and Drain can reach nearly the length of the map. Light siders have to kill within 20 seconds from the beginning of the match or they simply have no hope of winning here.

duel_pit is almost as bad. There are still plenty of places to get stuck (ramp corners and low platforms) and the only places you are out of danger from being Drained is in the central pit hole or on the highest platforms with your enemy below you. Both of these can be easily rendered non-safe zones with one jump from the Drainer.

The Light Sider, unless he kills within 20 seconds of turning on Absorb (aka, the start of the match), is required to run away in order to survive. This is simply impossible in these two maps versus a skilled opponent.
</rant>

Mr_Sharky
05-06-2002, 03:24 PM
bah... I just run at the drainer, kick em down and slice em... then repeat until they're dead. If I'm feeling really cheeky I'll even try and backstab em... :p sure this doesn't always work cos there's always someone better but for most it's quite effective and for the rest I'd of probably lost anyway.

As for heal being a problem it isn't!
You have to put points into heal to make it effective just like any other power. (heal at rank 1 is worthless)

On the server I run I've set the force regen time to 1 so even if your drained you get force back very fast and although lightning can be a problem absorb cancels out it's effect.

Zerox
05-06-2002, 11:22 PM
I don't mind Drain persay. I mean im normally drained everygame, i could care less, it gives me a chance to touch up on my saber skills, and it has taught me how to prolong fights.

But the problem is the drain combos. See i really hate it when the person uses the heavy stance/drain/choke combo.... See they drain ya, grip ya, hid behind something so u cant push em and start there swing while your griped. I could no way find a counter to that move. I used all my skills, ever "absorb" which he just ran untill i turned it off so i could replenish my force pool.

XERXES
05-07-2002, 01:54 AM
I agree...it does get annoying, but i dont go complaning about it. Usually I will just procede to attack them when they are draining the crap out of me. But by the time i realize they are just going to spam drain, i have already lost my force. In some maps, it isnt too difficult to keep away. But it is still difficult, espically if draining is all they are worried about. But really...if you dont like it, play on "no force" servers.


-Fear is the mind killer

X R Kun
05-07-2002, 03:42 AM
Im not sure if anyone had experience this ....draining not only drains ur force pool , IT DRAINS MY FRAME RATE!!! I have a PIII 500 320MD RAM and a gefoce3ti200 card. Its exceptionally a mid range system and whenever some whore unleashes tendrils of force drain , my system slows down. But in terms of gameplay , I have nothing against drain whores . Their strategy is a sign of weakness and its so easy to slice them up

DerthNader
05-07-2002, 06:34 AM
Originally posted by SeriousBlack
Why do people get so upset?

Me & another mid battle:

- me drains him to replenish health to 80 from 40

fight,fight,fight,fight,fight

- him heals
- me drains him to replenish health to 80 from 40
- him "is drain all you can do?"

<repeat above sequence a few times>

- me 0wns him with sabre.
- him bleat some more...

- me does /rcon clientkick 0

"bleater has disconnected"


"Ahh, rcon. Works every time"

:)

Snake44
05-07-2002, 11:14 PM
If there is a DrainWhore and they drain me I just say to myself your here to have fun and I don't get angry.

Kuroshi
05-08-2002, 02:52 PM
You have controlled your fear. Now, release your anger! Only your hatred can destroy me! ;)

ArtifeX
05-08-2002, 03:13 PM
God, let this thread die already. Drain is not even a threat with the new patch.

Vorax
05-08-2002, 03:22 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX
God, let this thread die already. Drain is not even a threat with the new patch.

I wouldn't go quite that far...it is still quite useful ;) But yes, it isn't what it was and certainly doesn't deserve this thread! Since 70-80% of what is here no longer applies :)

- Vorax