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View Full Version : Heavy Stance Complainers - Great news from DEV!!! Woot!!!


NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 01:40 AM
I sent them a suggestion and got this reply!

"Consider it forwarded. Just a note: the heavy stance has been tweaked heavily in the pending patch to balance it better.


--Kenn


Kenn Hoekstra
Project Administrator/
Director of Support Services
Raven Software Corporation
http://www.ravensoft.com/"

:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

Kralj
05-02-2002, 01:49 AM
Damn... I love the heavy stance :(

Stan_Tencza
05-02-2002, 01:50 AM
Hmm.

That must be a good feeling, that a petty, insignificant gamer such as yourself was actually listened to by a Ravensoft executive. Isn't that precious :) Thanks for the update, comrade.

-Stan
===================================

Plan9
05-02-2002, 02:43 AM
Don't give him that much credit. Its probably a formatted letter they send out to the HUNDREDS OF ****ING WHINERS like this they get every day. They probably have a whole TEAM of CS workers dedicated solely to respond to all the lamers.

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 02:46 AM
Gee, I post an update on a situation and I get flames. :(

At least Raven is nice enough to respond.

I'll bet Kenn actually did write that e-mail - especially since I write directly to his e-mail address. He was responding to a suggestion about scoring and Heavy Stance, not a complaint as such.

Why does it matter that he responded to me?

Isn't the important part is that they are aware and working on the Heavy Stance?

Sheesh . . . maybe I should stop posting updates at all. :mad:

BTW: I often communicate with dev teams and get responses.

I used to keep in touch with the MOH:AA producer before 2015 was let go.

P.S. Don't call me a whiner. I've been supporting this game since I got it - and have been criticizing the whiners. Don't believe me? Check the Game Feedback forum for my, now sticky thread Whiners Guide, etc. :mad:

Arawyn
05-02-2002, 02:59 AM
NewBJedi, Do not listen to these children on the boards, i've all but stopped reading them. I remember when this was a good community. Now its turned into a name calling extravaganza. I thank you very much for the update, i'm just sorry there are unappreciative children who are never happy with anything. :-(

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 03:02 AM
Arawyn,

Thank you. :)

OPP
05-02-2002, 04:56 AM
we love you man, thanks for the news

Kagami
05-02-2002, 05:17 AM
YOU SIMPLY ROCK DUDE! Don't worry!:p

Vestril
05-02-2002, 05:23 AM
NewB Jedi...you are the wind beneath my wings...you are my hero :D lol

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 05:44 AM
Thanks guys! :)

NerfYoda
05-02-2002, 06:16 AM
Just you watch. I'm sure this patch coming will make heavy stance even more "unbalanced" just to see how many gripes they can generate. :)

Don't take me seriously. And now a song for NewBJedi, who is a glimmer of the old nice JK1 community:

Ohh NewB well you came and you gave without taking...
But I sent you away ohhh NewB...

:elephant:

subedii
05-02-2002, 09:02 AM
Gahh, what's wrong, everyones gone all NICE! If someone starts singing Kumbaya I am either leaving or bringing a flamethrower.

(BTW for those of you who CAN'T take a joke, yes I am glad that the heavy stance is getting tweaked)

rodney24
05-02-2002, 09:11 AM
To solve everyones problems just make it like JK and cut out all the dam stances and super dfa moves etc... There no whining no complaining. Quick question Why did people in jk hate grip so much but now its ok to use it?

Raven should have beta tested this game like Warcraft3. Even up to now that game is being beta tested by players like you me and hackers ;) I like this game dont get me wrong but there are way to many abusers in alot of the servers out there.

Sorry I just came out of a game where everyone was doing DFA's and you can only take so much of that in a night. Flame all you want who hate what i said but I like smores yay

NK_Zephorath
05-02-2002, 09:41 AM
Heavy stance doesn't need tweaking. Lunge whores are a problem, but what about people who are actually skilled in using heavy? Mind you I can still kick it with medium, but why should other people be forced to learn a new style because you don't like it?

Ascari
05-02-2002, 09:46 AM
Great job NewbJedi !


I myselve wrote an e-mail to an employee of ravensoft myself.

We had a conversation via e-mail. Got responses back within 1 minute!

Anyway check the "Unnoficial patch information" thread out here in the valley!


They say the combat issues have been fixed and that a patch is coming out, and i Quote: "Very very soon"


WOOOT!!!


edit: yehaa pit droid now :)

Jedi-Bert
05-02-2002, 10:27 AM
I doubt they have changed any animatioins, so you wont have to re-learn it

Im thinking they toned down the damage a bit (mabye 90-95 instead of 100) and got rid of the huge amount of time after the swing where it is still dangerous

Can somone e-mail to see if theyve worked on hit detection for the lighbtsaber, just 2 nites ago i got killed by a guy using heavy that was no where near hitting me

Ascari
05-02-2002, 10:29 AM
Originally posted by Jedi-Bert
I doubt they have changed any animatioins, so you wont have to re-learn it

Im thinking they toned down the damage a bit (mabye 90-95 instead of 100) and got rid of the huge amount of time after the swing where it is still dangerous

Can somone e-mail to see if theyve worked on hit detection for the lighbtsaber, just 2 nites ago i got killed by a guy using heavy that was no where near hitting me


such a thing is called lag :)

V-tecc
05-02-2002, 10:41 AM
Originally posted by Ascari
such a thing is called lag :)

Hehe.. Funny, Ascari :)

V-tecc

MAXIMUS2111
05-02-2002, 10:52 AM
I know this has been said before but....
I dont see how the heavy or red stance is a problem except that dfa move into the ground...but thats easily countered.

I play light & medium stances...the heavy is too slow or my tastes & the dfa move i just cant seem to get right maybe im on the jump key too lon i dont know....anyway back to the counter:

roll to the side then spin slash across his back...usually fatal unless they have full shield

I was dueling with one guy last night in an FFA server & he kept trying to dfa...i did the sidestep spin slash & cut him him up like 5 times in a row
dude called me a cheater, i laughed hard, he left

Im not even that good with a saber...i prefer guns & Push & Pull

spacelord
05-02-2002, 11:06 AM
well if they are gonna tone it down then they better make it faster and make the recovery time less in order to compensate for the lack of power.

Jedi-Bert
05-02-2002, 11:10 AM
Ascari-i wouldve thought that too, BUT

1. both of us had pings less than 80

2. he was moving AWAY from me, and I from him

EDIT: WOOHOO! no longer bantha fodder

enDless_Deliriu
05-02-2002, 11:11 AM
I bet they're just tweaking things, like the wind that kills you at times with the heavy saber and hit detection.

Before you say it's lag, I usually ping less than 50 where I play, and the people I'm fighting are mostly under 120 (odd person is over on the duel servers).

Heavy stance will remain heavy I'm sure, it'll just be slightly different, and the differences will probably affect all three stances in some way, shape, or form.

Leagle
05-02-2002, 11:55 AM
Originally posted by Arawyn
I remember when this was a good community. Now its turned into a name calling extravaganza.


Lol, it happened within 2 weeks. It took cstrike a few months at least.;)

F**kOffRegister
05-02-2002, 11:59 AM
Whoo hooo unlucky heavy whores!

CupO'Coffee
05-02-2002, 12:02 PM
the people that play the games have changed, just as the games did.
when cs came out, just played it to play it, but nowadays many people just play it to say how crappy it is and that "their" game is waaaay better...
more people have nowadays access to broadband connections such as DSL, or at last ISDN which increased the number of the players that play just occasionally has increased as well, also increasing the number of "whiners"

just my two cents though.... (and OT too!)

Solo4114
05-02-2002, 12:11 PM
Well, I for one am glad to know that 1.) there's a patch in the making, and 2.) they're tweaking heavy stance. I hope they're also tweaking other things to add to game balance. NewB, any word from Kenn on the block/parry idea? Falkentyne and I were talking about this for a while, and I think it'd really add some complexity and depth to sabre fights if it was included. Also, any word on collision/hit detection/blocking? To my way of thinking, those three things (heavy stance, no real blocking, and collision detection) are what holds this game back for the time being.

I'll admit, up until this post, I'd kind of given up hope on JKII's multiplayer component ever really being that much fun for me. Now that there's a patch in the works, well, I won't be selling off my copy of the game just yet. ;)

Now, for all you whiners out there who whine about whiners, here's a little cheese for you before you start pouring more whine. Personally, I hope that these tweaks and such are added as an ADDITIONAL mode of gameplay. All the various issues, such as the guns vs. force, the force imbalance, the red-stance-is-too-powerful, the make-mp-like-sp stuff, all of that, should be something that is optional for servers. This way, all you whiners who love to call OTHER people whiners won't have to actually whine about anything. You can just go play JKII the way you want, while the rest of us play the way we want. Everyone walks away happy. Anyway, that's my hope for what happens with this patch. But hey, if it works out for my side of the argument, and not for yours, I won't lose too much sleep. :)

bellenberger
05-02-2002, 12:18 PM
If they are going to "balance" the heavy stance, they should also balance the guns alot more. I'm tired of being spammed by rocket launchers and especially that stupid unblockable electro-gun thing. It sucks when you are having a battle and some gunslinger comes along with an area effect weapon and kills 5 people at the same time. This ESPECIALLY sucks considering the fact that pulling the weapon out of their hand is so much harder than JK1. The only hope was getting close enought and doing a one-hit kill. Now if they "tone down" heavy stance that will be alot harder.

I would really like to see pulling guns alot easier and a choice that if you use guns you cannot use the force. Jedis don't use guns.

Brian Ellenberger

Kyuss
05-02-2002, 12:18 PM
Does no one understand the concept of heavy stance? I'm not defending it or arguing with people who hate it... I am just saying that if you:

.1
Make it faster

.2
Make it weaker

.3
Take away some of its range

then it would no longer be a "HEAVY" stance. The key word here is HEAVY... not light or medium, but heavy... hence the name "Heavy Stance".
:swear:

Desslock
05-02-2002, 12:19 PM
What was your suggestion NewB? Heh...

Jedi-TalonClaw
05-02-2002, 01:08 PM
NewBJedi,

Can you write the DEVs and ask them about the grip and hold above the head cheese move? The person gripped has no counter. Push and throw doesn't work.

They need to limit how far up you can raise someone when you grip them.

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 01:45 PM
My suggestion was:

Heavy Stance Scoring

Since one of the biggest complaints about heavy stance is that they can just simply swing and rack up the points, how about this:

A person who kills with a light stance gets twice the points as a medium, and medium twice the points as a heavy.

Basically a light stance person gets 4 times the points as a heavy stance person - so that person is rewarded for having to use skill.

Also, it doesn't seem possible to duel in CTF, Team DM, and other modes. It'd be neat if that could be possible - server side option. Often I run into the same guy over and over and a good duel would get our frustrations. =)

Thanks!

D'akt Sangwar
05-02-2002, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by NK_Zephorath
Heavy stance doesn't need tweaking. Lunge whores are a problem, but what about people who are actually skilled in using heavy? Mind you I can still kick it with medium, but why should other people be forced to learn a new style because you don't like it?

its not the fact we dont like it (which we dont) its the fact that it is totally unbalanced

Reverse
05-02-2002, 01:59 PM
thx for the update newb, dont let the flamers get to you, there will always be people like that, anyone remember the old VBB, now that place was awful

Faucon
05-02-2002, 02:17 PM
Quick question Why did people in jk hate grip so much but now its ok to use it?

This is mainly do to the fact that in JK there where only a few ways to break grips hold... force jump or damage the gripper. Even when using absorb you would still be held in place and the gripper could easily kill you. Now you can't attack when you are gripping someone and absorb, push actually work... though damaging the gripper doesn't you actually have to kill them.

As to saber style balancing only thing I see wrong with dfa is it kills teammates in ctf... well any heavy stance can do that but dfa sends them rocketing in the air. Since I rarely do duals or saber only servers when someone starts to spam dfa I just go after someone else. If a whole team is spaming it, it is time to find another server.

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by Jedi-TalonClaw
NewBJedi,

Can you write the DEVs and ask them about the grip and hold above the head cheese move? The person gripped has no counter. Push and throw doesn't work.

They need to limit how far up you can raise someone when you grip them.

Drain will lower that ability.

You should be force pushing or pulling them before it gets to the point where they can raise you off the ground (it doesn't happen right away) - or even saber throw at them for awhile.

Unless you are low in health and shields, a force grip, even when fully implemented won't kill you. You can still come back and get them or go for more health.

Sorry, I see too many ways to counter-act that. But you can feel free to write them about it if you wish. :)

Jedi-TalonClaw
05-02-2002, 02:44 PM
If you are playing a light jedi you have no drain.

Vs a gripper you are doomed if he drains you and then grabs you and lifts you over his head and then saber tosses you when you are coming down.

You can not saber toss down or push down. There is no counter.

It is cheese just like many think heavy stance is cheeze. But you can roll to counter the heavy stance 1 jump kill but a light jedi gripped and raised up will be killed on the way down.

Master Rooster
05-02-2002, 02:58 PM
I'm not sure I agree with your scoring idea NewbJedi - surely it's just asking for people to cripple enemies with heavy and then finish them off with light to get the extra points.

Not that I have any cunning ways of balancing things myself, so I shouldn't really complain.

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by Jedi-TalonClaw
If you are playing a light jedi you have no drain.

Vs a gripper you are doomed if he drains you and then grabs you and lifts you over his head and then saber tosses you when you are coming down.

You can not saber toss down or push down. There is no counter.

It is cheese just like many think heavy stance is cheeze. But you can roll to counter the heavy stance 1 jump kill but a light jedi gripped and raised up will be killed on the way down.

There's always a point in a battle where it's too late to save yourself.

For that matter.. a person can grip you over a ledge and your life is in his hands. If he lets go or the grip is over, you are dead either way. Should that be removed too?

When a person gets you to the point you are choking, your best move is to move very fast as soon as he lets go, or force push him out of the way - which isn't too difficult.

Anyhow, that's my opinion - that if you let him get to the point of choking you, you aren't managing your neutral or light force powers well enough. If you die from the choke, than you aren't managing your health well enough.

There's a point where you have to take some responsibility for dying at the hands of another.

Also, being that I enjoy playing a Sith, I'm biased.

I often force drain people, kick them around, and choke them to death or make them linger off ledges while I smile at their torment.

:lightning

Jedi-TalonClaw
05-02-2002, 03:47 PM
Yeah so you are biased and not interested in balance. You've lost my faith in you.

The guy who drained, gripped us and raised us up did it immediately. There was no time to counter it.

Yeah ok the grip over a chasm is cool and you can choose to play duels on maps where they cant do that. But you can't counter the overhead grip and it needs to be tweaked.

Otherwise I could say I'm biased and the heavy stance is fine the way it is. Who cares about balance if it gives my play style an edge. You see what I am saying. Balance is balance. Not bias.



Originally posted by NewBJedi


There's always a point in a battle where it's too late to save yourself.

For that matter.. a person can grip you over a ledge and your life is in his hands. If he lets go or the grip is over, you are dead either way. Should that be removed too?

When a person gets you to the point you are choking, your best move is to move very fast as soon as he lets go, or force push him out of the way - which isn't too difficult.

Anyhow, that's my opinion - that if you let him get to the point of choking you, you aren't managing your neutral or light force powers well enough. If you die from the choke, than you aren't managing your health well enough.

There's a point where you have to take some responsibility for dying at the hands of another.

Also, being that I enjoy playing a Sith, I'm biased.

I often force drain people, kick them around, and choke them to death or make them linger off ledges while I smile at their torment.

:lightning

Solo4114
05-02-2002, 03:48 PM
I don't have as much of a problem with the darkside powers as it seems a lot of people do, but I do think that absorb needs to be beefed up to counter it. Currently, walking around with a blue glow is just a dead giveaway to anyone who plays darkside not to use force powers on you. The way I see it, there are a couple of options for balancing absorb.

1.) Make it so that absorb doesn't have the blue glow. That way no one knows if you have it turned on or not. This is not much of a real solution, though, since it'd probably just lead to a lot of darksiders simply not using force powers much, which would lead to them getting pissed and not playing the game. Potentially, anyway.

2.) Make absorb a "passive" force power like blocking. This could work two ways. (1) the reaction speed is directly related to what level you have it at. IE: someone with level 1 automatically turns on absorb slower than someone with level 2 or 3. or (2) it turns on at the same speed, but loses force power faster at lower levels, and loses force power constantly when being used. IE: a person comes up to you and drains you, you have absorb at level two. It'll basically only delay the effects of the drain. So basically, if you start out with less mana than the other guy, if he drains you, you'll be able to last longer and leave him with less mana than if you didn't have anything assigned to absorb, but at the end of the drain, he'd still have mana left, and you wouldn't. At level 2, this effect would be reduced, and at level 3, if drained by a level three darksider, you'd end up with barely more mana than he'd have. So, you'd maybe have enough for one force jump, or a short sabre throw, or maybe a weak push.

3.) Nerf drain. I don't personally like the idea of this but it prevents people from just draining, gripping, and dropping the other person. Frankly, I like beefing up absorb rather than nerfing drain, because of the underlying message that it sends. Nerfing drain kind of sends the message that people who pick darkside are being punished for just playing the game. I don't think that's right. I mean, yeah, the darkside's evil, but we shouldn't necessarily punish one side of the force. Rather, putting lightside users on level ground might work a bit better, because it's sort of like saying, "Oh yeah, we did kind of screw you over. sorry about that." Instead of saying, "BAD DARKSIDER!! NO DRAIN FOR YOU!!" :)

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Jedi-TalonClaw
Yeah so you are biased and not interested in balance. You've lost my faith in you.


I don't see why you would have 'faith in me' in the first place. Why would you need faith in me at all? Do you always lose this 'faith' in people over a simple disagreement?

Balance is always a question of opinion. I have rarely been drain/gripped to death myself, but I know how to avoid it. If someone drains me I keep my distance until my force is restored, or I charge them with a lot of kicks and rolls and go in for the kill.

It's very difficult for a person to get a 'grip' on you when you are always moving and forcing him/her on the defensive.

The whole Heavy Stance balance issue already exists in my opinion - there are ways to avoid it and it's challenging. I merely started this topic to show people who want 'more balance' (their opinion of it) that it will exist in the next patch.


The guy who drained, gripped us and raised us up did it immediately. There was no time to counter it.


See above and .. if you use force absorb at the right time, I believe drain will have zero effect. Once you know a person uses the drain/grip method, you can avoid that with proper use of absorb, force push/pull, kick, saber, etc.


Yeah ok the grip over a chasm is cool and you can choose to play duels on maps where they cant do that. But you can't counter the overhead grip and it needs to be tweaked.


Again, see above.


Otherwise I could say I'm biased and the heavy stance is fine the way it is. Who cares about balance if it gives my play style an edge. You see what I am saying. Balance is balance. Not bias.


Yep, balance is balance - a great lesson in tautology.

Otherwise, if you make yourself vulnerable due to force mismanagement or bad strategic moves on your part, that's not a balance issue, it's a personal problem.

You haven't offered a solution to the grip overhead situation, you've only complained about it.

Tree
05-02-2002, 04:03 PM
HAHAHA suck it strong stance whores.

FINALLY A BALANCED GAME


WOOOO HOOOO

Jedi-TalonClaw
05-02-2002, 04:20 PM
You didn't read my first post where I do offer a solution to the grip problem. Limit how high you can raise someone with grip so that they can still use force push. Don't let them raise you directly over their head. That's not changing grip that much. Just taking away the cheese.

You offered yourself up as someone who was interested in balance and someone who communicates with the DEVs. Now you say you are biased. That's why I now have a lack of faith in you. Do you not see the value in a balanced game?

Originally posted by NewBJedi


I don't see why you would have 'faith in me' in the first place. Why would you need faith in me at all? Do you always lose this 'faith' in people over a simple disagreement?

Balance is always a question of opinion. I have rarely been drain/gripped to death myself, but I know how to avoid it. If someone drains me I keep my distance until my force is restored, or I charge them with a lot of kicks and rolls and go in for the kill.

It's very difficult for a person to get a 'grip' on you when you are always moving and forcing him/her on the defensive.

The whole Heavy Stance balance issue already exists in my opinion - there are ways to avoid it and it's challenging. I merely started this topic to show people who want 'more balance' (their opinion of it) that it will exist in the next patch.



See above and .. if you use force absorb at the right time, I believe drain will have zero effect. Once you know a person uses the drain/grip method, you can avoid that with proper use of absorb, force push/pull, kick, saber, etc.



Again, see above.



Yep, balance is balance - a great lesson in tautology.

Otherwise, if you make yourself vulnerable due to force mismanagement or bad strategic moves on your part, that's not a balance issue, it's a personal problem.

You haven't offered a solution to the grip overhead situation, you've only complained about it.

Kurgan
05-02-2002, 04:26 PM
The way I see it, they're the developers and they can do what they want with their product.

While I myself didn't have a problem with the Strong stance as is, I can accept their decision if they do indeed patch it as they seem to be doing.

At least they aren't doing what some extremists are calling for, which is to remove guns or force gun users to be forceless or slow down movement speed for gunners. Those kinds of things would totally ruin the game, period.

reducing the speed or damage or whatever they plan to do with one lightsaber stance would be fine. There's no need for flames either way. I'm sure if they want to keep something, no amount of begging and whining from the fans will cause them to change it. After all, I'm sure the number of people buying the game who don't complain is infinitely higher than the ones who buy and nitpick.

Kyuss
05-02-2002, 04:48 PM
Originally posted by D'akt Sangwar
its not the fact we dont like it (which we dont) its the fact that it is totally unbalanced

I notice that everyone is saying that it is "unbalanced". No it isn't... you have the ability to block it. Heavy stance is stronger and knocks down the light stance... so when you see someone using it, you have the "ability" to change your stance so it isn't easily knocked down.

The only way you can call it "unbalanced" is if this were a class based game and one class couldn't "use" it. Lets say it was classed as only the dark force users could use the Heavy Stance... then I can see how you could call it unbalanced because the light force users wouldn't have a stance to block it. However the game isn't that way and everyone is allowed the ability to switch to the heavy stance.

I do not use it all the time, but when I encounter someone that is... I switch to that stance. It is as simple as that! I can't blame the game or the developers when I choose a "known" weakness to the stong stance and get killed.

Echomancer
05-02-2002, 04:54 PM
Well, this change sounds fairly disappointing to me. I see absolutely nothing wrong with the heavy stance as it is, it serves the purpose it's supposed to. Anyone who uses it intelligently and with skill is just as hard/easy to beat as someone who uses another stance, the tactics just change. Anyone who doesn't know what they're doing and spams a move or a swing all over the place will get the occaisional lucky kill but is, 9 times out of 10, much easier to kill than someone who actually knows what the hell they're doing.

As far as I'm concerned the game is balanced. But I've played a hell of a lot of poorly-balanced games in my life so maybe it's a biased opinion of what balance is. I do feel, however, that any reduction in the damage dealt by the heavy stance will severely unbalance force heal. Slowing it down would also throw it off balance... there's a ton of down time between slashes on which you can capitalize if you're fighting a heavy stance user.

But it's not my choice whether this game changes or not.

Jedi-TalonClaw
05-02-2002, 04:59 PM
Yes we are the minority. Way more people play single player and never get on the Internet.

Originally posted by Kurgan
I'm sure the number of people buying the game who don't complain is infinitely higher than the ones who buy and nitpick.

S!TH!NAT0R
05-02-2002, 05:02 PM
Ok, here's the deal. It doe'snt matter how much they yweak or add with the patch. Who knows, Raven could end up fixing 90% of all the things we have been griping about the past month. -One fact remains, there will still be all the kiddie whiners and flamers here at the JK2 forum. Don't get me wrong, there's quite a few of you here that are very cool abd act yur age. But also, I notice way too much kiddie flaming and bickering. Way too many smart-ass children here without any supervision from thier mommy and/or daddy! -Anyway, my point being.........no matter what Raven fixes/adds w/ the patch, peeps will just complain about a new list of gripes after it's released! -All these lamers will nitpick at the patch and there will be 50 instant whining/griping threads the 1st damn day. Hell, only one tidbit of official info regarding the tweaking of the heavy-stance and there are already numerous whining going on on how thats unfair:rolleyes: :rolleyes: First mostly everyone here gripes and b!tches about heavy-stance being too much and now that we have official word that it may be fixed w/ the patch and now you peeps are b!tching about that!! -Get a life you freakin' kiddies!:eek: :rolleyes: :mad:
--If Raven dev ended up curing all the MP issues w/ JK2 with the patch release there would still be 30-40 threads with nothing but whining and b!tching about how the patch sucks. Grow up people and for all the kiddies here.......go find yourselves a gaming junior-forum! ----There's my rant! -I'm so disgusted with how most of the members act here at the JK2 forum. It's a real embarressment to the Veteren JK1 community and to the 'sensible' members of the JK2 community as well. Just plain sad all the flaming and bickering that goes on here.
--Anyway, ...just my .02. -I'm gone, ~S!TH

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 05:06 PM
Originally posted by Jedi-TalonClaw
[B]You didn't read my first post where I do offer a solution to the grip problem. Limit how high you can raise someone with grip so that they can still use force push. Don't let them raise you directly over their head. That's not changing grip that much. Just taking away the cheese.


I didn't notice that solution, my apologies.

You solution involves nerfing grip. That changes the potential of grip quite a bit - it can never be used to move a person around in that sense or ever used to actually kill someone.

How about letting them raise you that high but you can still force push yourself out of it? I don't like that idea either - I'd rather see forces used intelligently, not automatically.

So you want balance?

How about this:

If someone force pushes you off a ledge, you can shoot out a grapple hook and come back.

If someone force drains you, you can put up a shield that will bounce it back.

If someone uses force lightening, you can shoot a water sprinkler that will cause them to be electrocuted.

If someone force kicks you, you can pull out a bean bag that bounces them back.

Yah, let's put all these things in for balance!

Let's completely remove any strategy and player responsibility and cause it to be all self-automated defenses.

How much balance do you want?


You offered yourself up as someone who was interested in balance and someone who communicates with the DEVs. Now you say you are biased. That's why I now have a lack of faith in you. Do you not see the value in a balanced game?


As for reading posts.

First, read the title of this thread - does you see balance mentioned?

Read, the message I posted, in this thread, starting with:

"My suggestion was:" ...

Also, I have mentioned about what I think is unbalanced about the Heavy Stance, but I believe the major problem isn't the balance itself, but the scoring system. That's just my opinion.

But see, I disagree with you about grip being unbalanced and therefore everything I will ever say is futile and pointless - because of that 'one' issue.

1. I really don't care what you feel about me.

2. People will disagree with you in life, good luck.

Jedi-TalonClaw
05-02-2002, 05:21 PM
You do not need to raise someone directly over your head to throw them or drop them off the ledge.

The Dark Jedi raising a Light Jedi directly over their head makes the Light Jedi totally defensless in a duel. Lets give the Light Jedi something equal then.

Not allowing you to raise them directly above their head is not nerfing the dark jedi. The Dark Jedi can still pick you up and throw you.

Or allow force push or saber throw downward. Why can't I throw my saber down at the gripper?

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 05:23 PM
I believe the whole point is by the time you are choking, there is little you can do.

Solution: Don't get to that point in time.

Do you want it so no one can fully drain you, or fully kill you with lightening, or fully force push you, or fully force pull you and saber down?

Where's the limit?

In fact, I don't see you complaining about force pull, which is more difficult to avoid than grip.

Once someone is close enough and force pulls you, there is NOTHING you can do about it - just hope to jump out of the situation if they miss and don't kill you with a lunge.

Or you can avoid it before it happens.

Just like any situation - use your brain - that's what makes JK2 so great. You actually have to think ahead.

S!TH!NAT0R is right.

Jedi-TalonClaw
05-02-2002, 05:34 PM
Try playing a Light Jedi vs a gripper and you will see my point.

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 06:14 PM
You don't know the power of the dark side!

:lightning

It is your deeeeeeeeeeeeeestiny. :p

Vestril
05-02-2002, 06:38 PM
Ok, here's the deal. It doe'snt matter how much they yweak or add with the patch. Who knows, Raven could end up fixing 90% of all the things we have been griping about the past month. -One fact remains, there will still be all the kiddie whiners and flamers here at the JK2 forum. Don't get me wrong, there's quite a few of you here that are very cool abd act yur age. But also, I notice way too much kiddie flaming and bickering. Way too many smart-ass children here without any supervision from thier mommy and/or daddy! -Anyway, my point being.........no matter what Raven fixes/adds w/ the patch, peeps will just complain about a new list of gripes after it's released! -All these lamers will nitpick at the patch and there will be 50 instant whining/griping threads the 1st damn day. Hell, only one tidbit of official info regarding the tweaking of the heavy-stance and there are already numerous whining going on on how thats unfair First mostly everyone here gripes and b!tches about heavy-stance being too much and now that we have official word that it may be fixed w/ the patch and now you peeps are b!tching about that!! -Get a life you freakin' kiddies!
--If Raven dev ended up curing all the MP issues w/ JK2 with the patch release there would still be 30-40 threads with nothing but whining and b!tching about how the patch sucks. Grow up people and for all the kiddies here.......go find yourselves a gaming junior-forum! ----There's my rant! -I'm so disgusted with how most of the members act here at the JK2 forum. It's a real embarressment to the Veteren JK1 community and to the 'sensible' members of the JK2 community as well. Just plain sad all the flaming and bickering that goes on here.
--Anyway, ...just my .02. -I'm gone, ~S!TH

I don't think that Raven is going to fix all of the issues that people gripe about, only the issues that genuinely lead to imbalance. I don't believe that they will patch it to the whims of all of the people who whine about the strategies that they have a hard time countering.

For example--DFA, there really isn't any imbalance to this move, its just a little buggy, it kills you without getting anywhere near you and can kill you after its been buried into the ground. I, like many people, was annoyed by this, but then learned the timing of the move so I can run in and get a good chop at their heads.

I also wanted to say that whining and complaining and expressing your 'disgust' about the behavior of this comunity only adds to the problem, I admit that I had to learn that lesson too, but perhaps instead of complaining you should try to set a good example. Just my way of thinking :).

the 7th Jedi
05-02-2002, 08:16 PM
the fact is, it oftentimes hard to see clearly what parts of the game is 'unbalanced' since people will always have different opinions and biases, which is quite natural.

for example, IMHO I believe heavy should stay as it is except for the sometimes buggy collission detection and DFA....anyone can also say that grip is too powerful, and of course; the ones who uses grip would defend it naturally.

the important thing is we should respect each others' opinions and views. i'm not saying that we should agree with them, but at least we should not resort to flaming / insulting and name calling just because someone doesn't share our view. in the end, only raven themselves will judge what is unbalanced or not.

peace.

Vestril
05-02-2002, 08:23 PM
Well said 7th, I totally agree with you and couldn't have said it better myself (and I tried :( lol)

Rogue74
05-02-2002, 08:24 PM
There is a problem with people lunging across entire maps. BUT that's no reason to screw over the rest of the community and get the strong stance messed up.

Assuming the people who are complaining use medium and/or light exclusively, how would you feel if techniques that you have perfected or almost perfected using them were suddenly messed with so that they were less effective? I'm sure you wouldn't like it too much would you?

If that does happen I'll just blow all the whiners up with a rocket launcher each time to give them something else to whine about! :p


BTW, I just got an email back from Kenn Hoekstra, but since I have no permission to repost what he said I won't. Anyway what he said makes it sound like the only things that will be fixed are bugs with the stance not the actual stance and what the complainers are complaing about!!! :p

Chronic
05-02-2002, 08:48 PM
thanks again NewBJedi :P

Jeff 42
05-02-2002, 08:59 PM
The only problems I see are the sometimes buggy damage detection and the DFA kills when the saber is in the ground. Other than that, there's nothing in the game I really think needs to be fixed.

NewBJedi
05-02-2002, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Rogue74
BTW, I just got an email back from Kenn Hoekstra, but since I have no permission to repost what he said I won't. Anyway what he said makes it sound like the only things that will be fixed are bugs with the stance not the actual stance and what the complainers are complaing about!!! :p

I don't think he minds. Just post it.

Did he say for your eyes only?

I told him I'd post this and he didn't object.

IronJedi Kaga
05-03-2002, 01:40 AM
Little do you know that by tweaked, they are switching normal heavy stance out for Desann's heavy stance :P

But on a serious note, I hope that they dont muck it up that badly. I dont use heavy often, but the only thing seriously wrong is that the DFA does damage when stuck in the ground. Patch that out and people who do nothing but DFA will get owned if they missed because people will be able to run in and slash while the saber is in the ground.

Frankly I'm more concerned about drain and heal balancing than the saber bugs.

SubMerged
05-03-2002, 01:45 AM
NewBJedi, Do not listen to these children on the boards, i've all but stopped reading them. I remember when this was a good community. Now its turned into a name calling extravaganza. I thank you very much for the update, i'm just sorry there are unappreciative children who are never happy with anything. :-(

yeah bingo. now due to the majory of lamers, whiners, and people who dont know how to effectively counter the heavy stance, its getting nerfed. learn how to play the game before whining. i think DFA is the only thing that needs to be tweaked, and if heavy stance becomes useless in the next patch, some heads are gonna roll.

edit - and yeah, i think your name is "NewbJedi" for a good reason.

Rogue74
05-03-2002, 07:21 PM
Ok, well if anyone objects it's NewBJedi's fault ;)

First email:

"Perhaps "tweaked heavily" was an overstatement. There were some errors with the radius damage, etc. the attack did that were adjusted. We're not fundamentally changing it...just fixing some things we missed in the original incarnation."

Second:

"No problem. The message I wanted to convey was that we're aware of the problem and trying to fix it. I didn't want to make it sound like we were cutting the legs out from under it, so to speak. ;)"

NewBJedi
05-03-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by SubMerged
NewBJedi, Do not listen to these children on the boards, i've all but stopped reading them. I remember when this was a good community. Now its turned into a name calling extravaganza. I thank you very much for the update, i'm just sorry there are unappreciative children who are never happy with anything. :-(

yeah bingo. now due to the majory of lamers, whiners, and people who dont know how to effectively counter the heavy stance, its getting nerfed. learn how to play the game before whining. i think DFA is the only thing that needs to be tweaked, and if heavy stance becomes useless in the next patch, some heads are gonna roll.

edit - and yeah, i think your name is "NewbJedi" for a good reason.

Is that last line an insult or a compliment? :) :confused: :)

Sutek
05-03-2002, 09:29 PM
The idea IS good, but you're forgetting the newbies who go into a melee spinning like tops and scoring the odd kill Do you REALLY want to reward them for that tactic? Because that is what would happen unfortunately.

The downside of the scoring tactic is that it would make light stance the "required" stance - everyone who wanted to score any significant number of points would HAVE to use it - and a lucky moron spinning crazily with blue would score as much or more as a skilled person with red choosing and placing their blows (like I try to do).

The DFA move IS powerful, and it IS easy to do (I just cannot master that blasted yellow special :< ), but when someone starts spamming the move you counter it. Simple as that. Dodge and kill when they are recovering. It does require timing and it will go wrong (due to relative latencies). When I teach a newbie I make sure they understand that once they have the hang of the move, they do not overuse it or rely on it because it is seen as lame, is easy to counter (I try and drum counter tactics in too) and will ultimately cause them to lose. If you promote one stance above the others then you will simply be asking for the same things to be said later about that one instead.

I do have one small burning question though: Can you give the email addy of the guy you emailed? I have an urgent bug to report that needs fixing (and it really does!), which is essentially a cheat allowing for "free" force powers. As a result I am loath to actually post the details on the board (it is undetecable if used, as it is part of the game). Send it to me by email (kieren_smith@hotmail.com) for preference please.

BoMbER
05-03-2002, 09:42 PM
This is pretty good for the people who swing like mindless idiots, but dont you think its unrealistic to ALWAYS be swinging?

Tree
05-04-2002, 03:20 AM
I'm sick of all these newbs/whores defending Heavy Stance.

I know because I used it before I realized how much of a joke it was.

It is unbalanced totally. It has longer range and more power. The Slower swing doesn't mean dick. Any decent player knows how to swing while keeping their saber pointing at the other player for the duration of the swing. Keeping them far enough at bay by the time they try to get in you can swing again.

This unbalance is why light stance totally sucks (aside from 2 pretty special moves)
I would like to have it balanced so light stance was not usless.


This is all related, the lighter the stance the less power and range.

.
People who complain about it see the unbalance, its sad that you can't.
Do you ever see posts about light stance being overpowered?
No and for a good reason.

If all the saber stances were balanced wouldn't all these "whiners" whine about every stance?

For the people who defend DFA well your just kidding yourself.

If you attempt the one-hit one kill move there are no drawbacks.
You miss, well you don't have to worry. Just turn your saber in the ground and hope they are dumb enough to approach you. If they don't just try again. No worries.

Shouldn't there be drawbacks to using a one-hit one kill move?
bahh its not even worth discussing. I hope it gets totally nerfed.

The past 2 days I join a server, soon 3 or 4 people are heavy stance start whoring. Everyone leaves WOO HOO that was fun thanks for ruining everones game. I don't say **** I just leave.

Now for the obvious replies to come like they always do. I'll just awnser them now.

Ohh I have no problem owning heavy stance users
You can own heavy stance players but it takes one of 2 things.
1. You are 10 times better than they are.
2. They are just really bad padawans.

I can beat them but it takes a lot of work since they mostly play defensively. And usually I just barely beat them. AFter landing like 3 hits and they have landed 1 hit.

I use lightstance and I own ass Well........... BS. I have heard this crap before. If you use light stance especially in NF games you will get the beat down of your life.

If you think I'm wrong please I BEG YOU give me the server IP of where you play. PLEASE. Give me this magical server IP where heavy stance doesn't own, and light stance can hold its own.
I have been playing since its realease and I have seen nothing of the sort.

Im not holding my breath.

SPY_jmr1
05-04-2002, 03:37 AM
tree noone gives a ****.... give it up.... you have shown that you either cant or wont read posts and i dont even know why i am responding to this drival...:rolleyes:

oh and incase you are wondering if this is a flame? oh yeah..... you got it. all flame. ask me if i care. you dont seem to.:rolleyes:

Kincade
05-04-2002, 04:05 AM
ok, there are a few key items that need to be fixed with the DFA move, other than that, strong is fine. let me start off my rant by saying i exclusively use medium style.

1. you SHOULD NOT be able to turn your body while lunging. it would be easy to counter if they couldn't turn while in the air; but the fact remains, that if i side-step, they just turn to have the saber facing me, i can't approach them to attack.

2. the move should not do full damage when the sabre is in the ground, at max it should do half damage if any more than the normal collision-non-swing hit.

3. the hit-box needs to be cleaned up on this. i have countered-had DFA'ers fly by me, land, i run up behind them, start to slash and die on their saber which is 180 degrees opposite them, and in the ground no-less. same for side. sometimes they miss, never connecting, but i die.

4. this move seems too easy to do, and do repeatedly for the damage it does. the medium special is excruciatingly difficult to land and doesn't do as much damage. most of the time when i actually get the medium special to work in the middle of a battle, either land on someone's head and do no damage, or it performs to far away from people and i swing at nothing.


With that said, i found the best counter is to give them no quarter. once they lunge once, roll towards them then force pull, start attacking, if they roll away follow suit. maintain your distance of 1-2 saber lengths or less away from your target. oh and as a courtesy for being so lame, pull em to the ground and sweep em with your back turned. i'm sure they'll be happy yo have died to a target which would have been extremely vulnerable if they were to get up.

:lsduel: :3headed:

NewBJedi
05-04-2002, 04:35 AM
Originally posted by Kincade
3. the hit-box needs to be cleaned up on this. i have countered-had DFA'ers fly by me, land, i run up behind them, start to slash and die on their saber which is 180 degrees opposite them, and in the ground no-less. same for side. sometimes they miss, never connecting, but i die.


Good list you made but I suggest reading the entire thread, this issue is being covered by dev. :)

mIRC
05-04-2002, 06:09 AM
Well, there goes all of sabering. I associate the heavy stance with elegance and skill. The other two stances are just random, furious swings that are just thrown out there.

Now we can all be the spinning tops that everyone want to be.

I stopped playing JO for a month and come back and its great again, now when this patch comes I will have to stop because the fun shall be totally lost.

Enjoy the rest of your game.

NewBJedi
05-04-2002, 06:12 AM
Um, they are basically making it so when you heavy stance kill you have to 'touch the person' instead of being able to hit them from 3 feet away.

You call that a problem?

Vestril
05-04-2002, 06:12 AM
mIRC, how can you be so certain that it will be so bad? It could be major tweaking of the things that are buggy about heavy, like the fact that it can kill you without hitting you...or the fact that DFA does damage well past the time it should. Maybe you should calm down and have a little faith in the people that created this awesome game

mIRC
05-04-2002, 06:24 AM
I've never had instances where I've gotten hit 3 feet away.

I've never had instances where the damage would take its toll much later.

i'll play with alot of people who use heavy stance including me. We don't complain at all. Infact, i can defeat heavy stance users with the other two stances.

But...

Now that it'll be changed heavy stance will be useless. Everyone will swing wildly, skilless, as if they were spinning tops.

This isn't entertaining.

This isn't fun.

NewBJedi
05-04-2002, 06:27 AM
How are you certain the patch will end up that way?

Did you consult Madame Cleo or Sylvia Browne?

Edit: Just realized Vestril said the same thing.

:)

Also, click here:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49752

mIRC
05-04-2002, 06:36 AM
You fail to understand what most of these people are actually whining about.

The heavy stance special move is easily dodged. Are you guys aware of strafing? Are you guys aware that you can literally get the persons saber stuck in the ground for a good 10 seconds after the move?

I'm doubting you guys have any skill except for a bumrush of drunken swings.

Also, very, very, very few people will not update. Then you take out those very, very, few and subtract the people who don't host a server(s).

NewBJedi
05-04-2002, 06:41 AM
Originally posted by mIRC
You fail to understand what most of these people are actually whining about.


I think we fail to understand what *you* are whining about.

Because, *you* don't understand what the patch will do.

If you read the entire thread you would have saw this - Raven dev has been writing to this person:

"Rogue74
Pit Droid
Registered: Apr 2002
Location:
Posts: 58

"Ok, well if anyone objects it's NewBJedi's fault

First email:

"Perhaps "tweaked heavily" was an overstatement. There were some errors with the radius damage, etc. the attack did that were adjusted. We're not fundamentally changing it...just fixing some things we missed in the original incarnation."

Second:

"No problem. The message I wanted to convey was that we're aware of the problem and trying to fix it. I didn't want to make it sound like we were cutting the legs out from under it, so to speak. "

mIRC
05-04-2002, 06:43 AM
Read it again. I'm talking about what people are whining about except in the very lest sentence.

NewBJedi
05-04-2002, 06:46 AM
Why does it matter what people are whining about?

Dev is only fixing technical problems with heavy stance, not changing its basic function.

NewBJedi
05-04-2002, 06:47 AM
Originally posted by Rogue74
Ok, well if anyone objects it's NewBJedi's fault ;)

First email:

"Perhaps "tweaked heavily" was an overstatement. There were some errors with the radius damage, etc. the attack did that were adjusted. We're not fundamentally changing it...just fixing some things we missed in the original incarnation."

Second:

"No problem. The message I wanted to convey was that we're aware of the problem and trying to fix it. I didn't want to make it sound like we were cutting the legs out from under it, so to speak. ;)"

...

mIRC
05-04-2002, 06:49 AM
THIS IS ONLY ABOUT YOUR FIRST SENTENCE IN YOUR LAST POST.


You're being a retard.

In previous posts you seemed to be agreeing with other people's whines/gripes but now when someone opposes it the whines don't matter? Give me a break.

NewBJedi
05-04-2002, 06:58 AM
Personal attack noted.

Conversation over.

Vestril
05-04-2002, 07:28 AM
mIRC...thank you for assuming that I suck...search for Vestril if you're ever interested in Dueling, I duel on NF servers and I have little trouble dispatching Heavy users, and I have had a number of instances where I was no where near someones saber and they managed to hit me.

Early on to managed to walk onto some DFA's that should have been buried, but since I've learned the timing. When someone uses DFA unless the land beside you, its virtually impossible to get a hit in, if they are skilled. This is because skilled players know to jump back and the damage timing makes it all but impossible to run in and out. Against newbies its rather easy, because they sit there for a second.

This pretty much defeats the purpose of the delay and rewards people for spamming DFA--it should be much more dangerous to use.

Again, I urge you to put faith in Raven, they designed a good game, and they will patch it in such a way that it will remain good. It would be like assuming that all the models would become Ewoks because they were 'tweaking the models.'

You're griping about something you know nothing about...

Nill the Mean
05-04-2002, 09:26 AM
SUCK IT HEAVY WHORES!!!
DFA IS BEING TWEAKED!!!

Soon you will not be able to spam DFA!
Then you will realise how much you suck!
Then those of us who have praticed more than just DFA will reign supreme!
Suck it DFA lamers! You can't save yourself now!

Rogue74
05-04-2002, 06:56 PM
Nill, did you not read any of the posts either? Apparently not.


I still think that overall the heavy stance is not a problem. I think more of the problem is with skill and people getting frustrated and blaming it on the heavy stance for that problem. The same thing has happened with EVERY 1st person game. DOOM it was the rocket launcher, Medal of Honor: AA is the rocket launcher/shotgun, etc.

None of these are problems or they wouldn't have been put in MP at all.

DFA is one of THE easiest things in the game to avoid and counter-attack against, easier probably even than the Stormtrooper rifle bolts. If you get killed by it it's your fault alone. It's just the thing everyone is taking their frustations out on. Granted I'm not talking about the people who just do DFA and can do nothing else.

Vestril
05-04-2002, 07:02 PM
Nill, did you not read any of the posts either? Apparently not.


I still think that overall the heavy stance is not a problem. I think more of the problem is with skill and people getting frustrated and blaming it on the heavy stance for that problem. The same thing has happened with EVERY 1st person game. DOOM it was the rocket launcher, Medal of Honor: AA is the rocket launcher/shotgun, etc.

None of these are problems or they wouldn't have been put in MP at all.

DFA is one of THE easiest things in the game to avoid and counter-attack against, easier probably even than the Stormtrooper rifle bolts. If you get killed by it it's your fault alone. It's just the thing everyone is taking their frustations out on. Granted I'm not talking about the people who just do DFA and can do nothing else.

IF it was easier to avoid and easier to kill people that did it, people would figure out that spamming it isn't an intelligent thing to do.

Yes, I'm frustrated by DFA, not because it beats me, but because it is the most boring thing in the game. It takes forever to kill someone spamming DFA because if they have even half a brain they can jump out of the way just as it's damage stops. It's a pretty buggy move, and repairing those bugs would make it so that people don't bother just hitting their DFA bound keys again and again and again...

the 7th Jedi
05-04-2002, 11:07 PM
yup, the saber can damage an opponent the whole time its buried on the ground after DFA. the player can then quickly jump/roll sideways or backwards without much worry since there isn't much vulnerability time as long as he/she faced the opponent....hence the spamming of the move.

personally, it is easy to avoid, but since its powerful and easy to execute, it can become toatlly overused and abused.

Tree
05-04-2002, 11:42 PM
Originally posted by Rogue74
DFA is one of THE easiest things in the game to avoid and counter-attack against, easier probably even than the Stormtrooper rifle bolts. If you get killed by it it's your fault alone. It's just the thing everyone is taking their frustations out on. Granted I'm not talking about the people who just do DFA and can do nothing else.

Wow you should try playing aginst DFA instead of spamming it all the live long day.

Easy to aviod. You bet it is.

Easy to counter attack against? BAHAHAHAHA
Id like to see you do it. Since it is so easy to counter please take a demo of yourself countering it multiple times then post it.
If you aproach them you die. I can occasionally get a hit in but I have to get real lucky.
Even when they don't turn you can still get killed becasue of the buggy-ness of it. I've aproached them from all different angles and died.

I don't know why I replied to this. If you are saying its easy to counter attack no one is gonna take you seriously anyway.

You also left out that it is one of THE easiest moves to pull off. Which a one-hit one kill should not be.

Vestril
05-04-2002, 11:59 PM
You also left out that it is one of THE easiest moves to pull off. Which a one-hit one kill should not be.

Eh, well even if they make it more complex the scripts will still flow through the net and people will still spam it with ease.

Solo4114
05-05-2002, 03:46 AM
I have to agree with Tree's two posts in this thread. DFA, Heavy Stance, etc. are a major problem to my way of thinking. The stances aren't balanced in any sort of "rock paper scissors" way. It's light being weakest, medium being so-so, and heavy ruling. The stances should not, in my opinion, be brogressions from weak to strong, but rather simply different strategic styles to respond to given situations AS THEY ARE IN THE SP VERSION.

Even if they do tweak DFA to the point where you can't kill someone with their sabre embedded in the ground, until they implement a real blocking system, this game's sabre combat just isn't gonna be all that much fun to me at least. It's NO fun right now for me, since it just feels so pointless. It's not dueling, it's jousting. Run at a guy, swing your sabre, hope you hit, rinse, repeat. That's it. At least, as far as I've been able to tell on the NF servers I've played. Duel servers are a bit better, but even then, after you play a few duels on the same map against the same three guys, it gets old. The only other option is to go to a server with a longer list which means you get to twiddle your thumbs longer. Joy. (yawn)

IF they could balance the stances to the point where they're actually simply strategic choices that you can apply to different situations (as in SP), and IF they could implement a real blocking system whereby you can actually block more accurately (again, as in SP), then the MP portion of the game would start to take on some pretty fun characteristics.

That said, they'd still have their work cut out for 'em in terms of the guns v. sabres issue, and the tweaking of force powers to make them a bit less cheesy and spammable. Like I've said elsewhere, this game's got real potential, but as it stands, it just doesn't do that much for me. I keep checking this board and posting to it, however, in the hopes of seeing good news re: what's been changed, how it's been changed, and what may yet be changed.

GonkH8er
05-05-2002, 04:29 AM
If you're stupid enough to run straight into someone's dfa move, and not be quick enough to roll sideways, then you deserve to die a cheap death. Sorry...

GooglyMoogly
05-05-2002, 05:30 PM
I agree with Solo. The difference in styles should not be DAMAGE it should simply be the types of moves you can do. I mean...why should I get hurt any more by running into a stable red blade then I do when running into a blue or yellow. A saber is a Saber right?..this AIN'T Star Trek (set sabers on stun Luke!).

Bah.

I don't think this patch is really gonna change much, since my main problem with heavy is NOT the damage its the lame players that know nothing else. The most I hope for is more ability to get closer to them without having to worry about dieing to a bug.

My heart sinks everytime I see someone backing up to get "the right distance" so they can start the DFA..not because I can't fight against it, but because it's boring to fight...plain and simple...ever watch two DFA spammers go at it...LOL...what a boring fight.

I play medium almost exclusively and will frequently be the top player that does not use Heavy or Dark forces. I don't care if I win or not...I just want some good battles.

Heavy/Strong/Red or whatever is a necessary evil. It's always going to be a problem.

Borf
05-05-2002, 09:28 PM
ROTFL, all the heavy whores a getting cranky in this thread.

Live with it ppl, learn how to get kills without:

dfa, dfa, dfa, dfa, hooray a kill, dfa, dfa, dfa, dfa, hooray a kill, dfa, dfa, dfa, dfa, hooray a kill, dfa, dfa, dfa, dfa, hooray a kill, etc...



Yours Truly
Borf[SaberSociety]

wang.

Rogue74
05-05-2002, 10:18 PM
Easy to counter attack against? BAHAHAHAHA
Id like to see you do it.



Yep easy. You can Force push them, kick them at the top arc of the move, etc. I'll leave out the last couple since it sounds like you use it a lot. :p The only time it works is if someone doesn't see it coming.

The only time I even use DFA is if I'm outnumbered and by myself. It's helpful to get one or two less opponents.

Borf
05-06-2002, 12:12 PM
Fair enough dude, at least your sensible with it

jedialphaknight
05-06-2002, 07:17 PM
Heh Heh Heh, take that heavy users.

I don't mind heavy, I mind ABUSING heavy, example: DFA, never trying other stances just heavy.

Now what really really makes me laugh has to be how people who use "heavy" are the skilled people. I love that, in fact everytime someone says it, I can't help but chuckle.

I remember back a couple weeks ago someone released a "saber moves FAQ" and each stance had its own commentary on the stance. I remember the one for heavy "heavy, which most skilled people I know use" haha

you know what is skill? people who kill you on light or medium, THAT is skill, how? they actually have to be able to pull off combos and THEY use timing not you heavy ****ers who all you do is try to go in and out stabbing with heavy. you wanna see skill, find someone who uses the other stances and see how well they do.

and then there comes the "well stfu I mean heavy is legit" yeah....right...so much skill, the other person runs into your saber, or you get lucky and kill them. oh wait wait, sorry the skill comes from when you "time" it , BS man, you don't time anything, ever notice how many tries it can take a heavy "skilled" user to hit someone?

Lets just see how all you heavy people are when the patch comes out.

MrCrusher
05-06-2002, 08:33 PM
Solo makes a good point each stance should be independent of the other but equally effective - Rock, Paper, Scissors approach.
You should be able to spec in any one stance independently.

Specing in defense would be the best way to add balance. If you could defend with certianty against button mashers and Strong-stance only users then the randomness and red-stance jousting would all but disappear. When Raven implemented the death-from-above move in the enhancement pack for Heretic 2 it was BLOCKABLE. Also the attack (Downward Stab) can only damage a very small point where the player lands and it leaves them wide open for a counter attack.

The defense system is very effective for stratigic, deliberate duels. The only way to get thru the defenses of a good player was the Jump-Kick that knocked the defender down, or out flanking them, or waiting for them to open up during an attack. I suspect this is what Raven intended to do but just ran out of time play testing. The good side to all of this is that we get to be the play testers. :D

All three stances should be equally effective but stratigically different. Anything less would be a mistake.

.....now I've got to get back to mapping

Gmeister
05-06-2002, 11:42 PM
Heavy stance isn't mean to be used exclusively.

Some of these heavy stance only players turn out to be total scrubs. They hide their lack of skill in a stance which kills in one or two swings. It's very boring to watch two heavys fight.

I use medium stance by default and switch to heavy when an opponent leaves themselves open or another situation where my gaming instinct tells me to use it.

Heavy stance can be countered very easily. Play the heavy stance whores defensively. Wait for them to swing and attack at the end of their heavy swing. Most of the time, I get these heavy only whores to get uncharacteristically get out of their comfy stance because they get tired of losing.

Risk18
06-23-2002, 05:27 AM
What servers does everyone play on that DFA is so bad? Backstab spammers are far more annoying.

Heavy stance gets knocked down with push/pull/kick all of the time. Usually some DFA spammer just gets ignored or blasted.

Pull/Backstab spammers are the worst imo. I see "assfighters" all the time now. Sometimes it's escapeable, but most of the time it's not. There's also a bug with the Light-backstab doing full damage even while you are in front of the person(as the saber goes into ready position)

QuietSith
06-23-2002, 05:57 AM
Originally posted by Risk18
What servers does everyone play on that DFA is so bad? Backstab spammers are far more annoying.

Heavy stance gets knocked down with push/pull/kick all of the time. Usually some DFA spammer just gets ignored or blasted.

Pull/Backstab spammers are the worst imo. I see "assfighters" all the time now. Sometimes it's escapeable, but most of the time it's not. There's also a bug with the Light-backstab doing full damage even while you are in front of the person(as the saber goes into ready position)

Way to reply 1 - 2 months behind on an obsolete thread.

:rolleyes:

SaberPro
06-23-2002, 12:05 PM
For some reason I still don't see why heavy stance needed to be complained about...

:confused:

Cal-Gon Gin
06-23-2002, 01:15 PM
Is there a way to show the dates of posts?

QuietSith
06-23-2002, 03:31 PM
Originally posted by SaberPro
For some reason I still don't see why heavy stance needed to be complained about...

:confused:

It was the birth of backstab. :p

QuietSith
06-23-2002, 04:08 PM
Originally posted by Cal-Gon Gin
Is there a way to show the dates of posts?

Should be right below each person's username.

Don't worry about it, it's just funny an old thread like this came up.

Cal-Gon Gin
06-23-2002, 11:00 PM
*adjusts his glasses*

Yup, there it is!

crazyplaya73
06-23-2002, 11:00 PM
Basically a light stance person gets 4 times the points as a heavy stance person - so that person is rewarded for having to use skill.

LOL since when did heavy stance require no skill? Are you joking? You have to use precise timing and aim while trying to avoid the damn throw whores. DFA is very hard to use since you can move and its only good as a surprise move.

Hey, I think all of the stances require skill to use but hasn't it always been known that a n00Bs can use Light and just start pressing buttons wildly to get a few kills. So if any stance requires "less" skill to use its light.

Homosexual Ewok
06-24-2002, 03:41 AM
Lol, even in v1.02 on your old account you did nothing but bitch, piss, moan and complain.

icefox98
06-24-2002, 03:46 AM
Why was this horrible thread bumped to the top? I thought we argued enough about stances and the patch, I think its time to move on....

jarek
06-24-2002, 02:06 PM
sabers are ghey! real men flame each other! /sarcasm

Elijah
06-24-2002, 02:20 PM
When will you people realize, the game isnt perfect... never will be. STOP E-MAILING RAVEN ALL BECUSE YOU CANT FIND THE WAY TO COUNTER AN ATTACK!

DFA: The guys jumping at you, how hard is it to do a side step or roll

BackSlash: were do i start? the "turn on protect before he hits you" trick works, push them... mmm dont get pulled... stay away from there backs... Trust me... when it comes to CTF i'm one of the better players, i deal with back stabers all the time and i use it when i feel the need to *out-hoe* the hoes.

mmm btw... for all you darkie whiners out there... you can LISTEN for when there absorb goes off... then you have your chance to grip/drain/shock/pull what ever...

-Z
mmm teh lite syde i yews...

markism
06-24-2002, 09:53 PM
If you're playing as a light jedi, anyway you have absorb.

Demise_SOK
06-25-2002, 02:48 AM
Wow, nice mistake bump.

I remember this thread.... funny that some of the whiners from before don't even play the game anymore since the 1.03 patch.

Be careful what you wish for, huh?

Vitigis
06-25-2002, 05:50 PM
Originally posted by D'akt Sangwar


its not the fact we dont like it (which we dont) its the fact that it is totally unbalanced

And your reasoning for calling it unbalanced?
Could it be that you are fragged too many times by heavy stance users because of any lack of defensive movement on your part?


I use medium, light AND red stance ...and have no problems countering any of them....but if I get beaten by someone using one or all of those stances in a duel, I do not presume that it must be because of some unbalanced gameplay issue, but rather a lack of skill or luck on my part.

but, then again, I don't play on dad's cable modem either...
most of the whiners most likely do......