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Ikhnaton
03-21-2000, 06:07 PM
After all, this is a cantina!

Barkeep! a round of drinks for myself and my dear friends!

LDB_Leeman
03-21-2000, 06:16 PM
I'll have another *hic* Alderaanian Ale, *hic* please.
What? Whaddaya *hic* mean "I've had enough"?!
I'll tell you when I've had enufffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffffff fff*hic*fffffffffffffffffffffff..........

<slumps to floor>

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www.thereckoning.co.uk (http://www.thereckoning.co.uk) - My Personal Starcruiser.

Vagabond
03-21-2000, 06:18 PM
And barkeep, I'll have what she's having...

BeastMaster
03-21-2000, 09:37 PM
I'll have a Pink Lizard Thunderbolt.

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"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

Qui Kenobi
03-22-2000, 02:55 AM
I'll take a Mad Mrelf, straight up.

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"Well, you were right about one thing, Master. The negotiations were short."
- Obi-Wan Kenobi

theahnfahn
03-22-2000, 03:29 AM
When Alcohol Becomes a Problem

By Ronald Pies, M.D.
WebMD Medical News

Alcohol-use disorders (AUDs) are probably the most common mental disorders in the United States: Nearly one person in seven suffers from an AUD at some time in his or her life. The prevalence of AUDs among men is about three-to-five times greater than among women. Nevertheless, alcohol can have serious consequences in women, since they are more sensitive to alcohol's damaging effects on the liver, heart and brain. Women also end up with higher blood levels of alcohol than men given the same amount consumed -- probably due to sex differences in how alcohol is broken down and distributed in body tissues.

The Scourge of Alcohol

Alcohol abuse and dependence does incalculable harm in the United States, accounting for about 5 percent of all deaths. The main health hazard associated with AUDs is cirrhosis of the liver, which was the ninth-leading cause of death in the U.S. in 1988. AUDs are also associated with driving accidents, violence and suicide. Very often, AUDs are accompanied by another psychiatric disorder such as a depression, anxiety or personality disorder. In some cases, AUDs can arise from attempts to "self-medicate" one of these other disorders with alcohol -- but in many cases the AUD is the primary, underlying disorder. Nevertheless, when an individual has both an AUD and a major mood or anxiety disorder, both problems must be addressed in treatment.

What causes "alcoholism" -- the common but poorly defined term usually applied to AUDs? This has been a source of controversy for decades, even among health-care professionals. The emerging consensus is that AUDs result from a complex interaction between biological and psychosocial factors. While the precise role of heredity in AUDs is not known, some types of AUDs appear to run in families, and are at least partly related to genetic factors. While blaming someone for having an AUD may be unjustified, holding the person responsible for getting help is critical. After all, diabetes is a biological disorder, but diabetics are still held accountable for taking their insulin.

Recognizing and Dealing with AUDs

How do you know when you or a loved one has developed a serious drinking problem? The actual amount of alcohol he or she drinks is not a good basis for answering this. Neither is the person's insistence that, "I can stop drinking anytime I want to." Most chronic alcoholics have stopped drinking for extended periods at one time or another, but that does not mean that they can control the problem without help: Almost always, the abstinent alcoholic will relapse unless he or she remains in some form of substance-abuse treatment. You should suspect an AUD when the person in question

Drinks larger amounts of alcohol than intended -- for example, the individual says, "I'm just going to have one for the road" and winds up downing five beers.

Spends a great deal of time drinking or recovering from drinking.

Has trouble meeting social, occupational or other important obligations.

Continues to drink even though alcohol has repeatedly caused physical or psychological problems.

Gradually needs more and more alcohol to get the same kick.

Experiences withdrawal symptoms (shaking, sweating, "seeing things") upon discontinuing alcohol use.

Constantly expresses annoyance when others express concern about his or her drinking, or has been told by a physician, employer or family member that he or she has a drinking problem.

Getting Help

The treatment of AUDs requires a thorough medical and psychological assessment. Concurrent physical disorders, vitamin deficiencies and potential psychiatric problems must be addressed. In some cases, a mood stabilizer or antidepressant may be part of the overall treatment plan. The medication naltrexone (ReVia) may help reduce the urge to drink and enhance abstinence in some patients but should be used in concert with psychotherapy or a twelve-step program, such as Alcoholics Anonymous.

A few studies support the use of disulfiram (Antabuse), a medication that induces nausea and other unpleasant reactions if the individual drinks. For families who must deal with a loved one's AUD, Al-Anon and similar support groups for families can be helpful. The key to success is helping the individual accept the need for help and insisting that he or she gets it.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

wizzywig
03-22-2000, 05:02 AM
Some may think TheAhnFahn is a "wet blanket" in going serious on the subject of alcoholism, but he makes a point.

There is good evidence to suggest that alcoholism (not alcohol itself, which is merely a chemical substance, and thus morally neutral) is responsible for a far greater toll in misery and death than most of us realize.

There is considerable evidence, for example, that it was alcoholism that led Joseph Stalin to order the policies that murdered some 25 million Soviet citizens. Alcoholism also accounts for Stalin's other destructive behaviors including his grandiose egomania, betrayal of close colleagues, and paranoid accusations against people who were actually his allies and supporters. When Hitler invaded the Soviet Union, the USSR was late in responding (at the cost of thousands of Russian lives) because Stalin was on a week-long bender.

Other prominent historical figures almost certainly addicted to alcohol include Alexander the Great, Ivan the Terrible, Peter the Great, Henry VIII, Huey Long, and Senator Joe McCarthy. Many serial killers, including Ted Bundy, Richard Speck, and Jeffrey Dahmer were out of control alcoholics. Alcoholism clearly played a role in the deaths of Ernest Hemingway, William Holden, and Gene Roddenberry. Statistically, the majority of murder victims and sexual assault victims are drunk at the time of their attacks--not perpetrators, victims.

Alcoholism doesn't just kill thousands each year on our highways. It is the hidden hand that rocks world events.

Something to think about.

--wiz

Ikhnaton
03-22-2000, 02:03 PM
man, oh MAN! relax, peoples! have a drink! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

i never had these kinds of responses at theforce.net forums!

Vagabond
03-22-2000, 02:40 PM
No doubt - take a chill pill. No one's talking about drinking 'till you barf. And for all you religious zealots, even Jesus drank wine, so if that's your moral compass, it was okay with him.

But as many of you already know, I'm agnostic, so things such as Jesus's approval doesn't have much weight with me.

If I'm not hurting anyone by having a drink, then mind your own business.

Now then, another round, on me...



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...




[This message has been edited by Vagabond (edited March 22, 2000).]

Conor
03-22-2000, 03:41 PM
I have a reason much closer to home about not drinking. I don't like the taste of alcohol. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

Of course, wine is supposed to do a lot to prevent heart disease. Winston Churchill drank a lot, "I have got more out of whiskey than whiskey has ever gotten out of me," (might not be exact) and he saved the world! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

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"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi



[This message has been edited by Conor (edited March 22, 2000).]

Vagabond
03-22-2000, 04:05 PM
Conor,

That's a great reason to not drink alcohol, seriously. If you don't like it, then that's a perfectly legitimate reason.



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

theahnfahn
03-22-2000, 05:28 PM
???
I'm at a loss here. REASONS NOT TO DRINK? I could name thousands, but that is beside the point. Give me one good reason TO DRINK! If you are worried about heart disease keep a proper diet and exercise, it won't kill your kidneys and make you look like a complete idiot in front of your friends. Everyone I have every known who drinks alcohol and believes there is nothing wrong in doing so has said this to me: "Alcohol calms me down, makes me more relaxed with friends, helps me celebrate, etc." (some even admit it helps with problems in their life, although it only compounds these problems exponentially). This sounds like a social problem to me - a drug-induced means to adhere to the social norm. I'm happy with who I am and I don't need a chemical to alter the state of my brain. One thing I have learned over the years is that alcoholics and even light drinkers stick together. Same with smokers and drug addicts. The one thing all these types of people have in common is an addiction to a substance that is detremental to their health - and they know this. Just like some are doing here, they are trying to convince us alcohol is good because it is the only way they can convince themselves. Alcohol is not a way to enhance life. If you don't drink alcohol you aren't missing out on anything. The only reason to drink alcohol is to numb your brain so you are stupid enough to be ammused or pleased by anything. Is anyone with me here, or am I just classified with all the other anal, religious, paranoid, square, or uncool people that always ruin your fun?

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Vagabond
03-22-2000, 05:37 PM
TAF,


...Give me one good reason TO DRINK!...


Because I like to. That's all the reason I need. I'm not harming you, and I happen to have a different opinion about drinking than you do. Furthermore, I'm not trying to persuade you to drink. Likewise, now that you've presented your views on drinking, which I respect by the way, please reciprocate by respecting the views of us who happen to disagree with you.

Cheers!



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Ikhnaton
03-22-2000, 05:50 PM
a reason to drink? it tastes good.

there is nothing like a frothy pint of Guinness in your hand that makes you feel like you're in heaven! (well, besides a good woman http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)

TAF, if you choose not to drink, that's your thing, but I think you need to lighten up. Don't knock it til you've tried it. Do not equate drinking with getting drunk.

theahnfahn
03-22-2000, 07:13 PM
Vagabond:
When you might run me over in your car I have to say something, when you might have kids and teach them to drink and ruin their lives I have to say something, when you might accidentally mix just a tad bit of alcohol with some incompatible medication that kills you I have to say something. I appreciate that you respect my views, but this isn't a matter of opinion. I don't know what level of responsiblity you have when it comes to drinking. Why do you think mirajuana and cocaine are illegal? You are only harming yourself, so you say. Yes, we should have the freedom to inhale, inject, or swallow whatever we like, but people die from alcohol - innocent people, and it shouldn't be that way.

Ikhnaton:
Non-alcoholic beer, and it won't screw up your life. And again, it isn't a choice not to drink. It is a choice TO DRINK, and you just like every other person on this planet run a risk of forming a disease that kills. You say I shouldn't equate drinking with getting drunk. Ok, then I might as well believe getting a little buz from smoking a joint is ok but getting high isn't. It is a universal fact that the negative affects of alcohol FAR outweigh anything positive you can come up with, the only matter of opinion here is whether or not you are smart enough to know a bad thing. I think it takes an intelligent person to recognize that even if they have a strong conviction that they will never abuse alcohol, in the end this drug has caused millions of deaths, ruined millions of lives, and it is obvious even a highly self-conscious person can make the fatal error of even having one drink. Although you have made your choice, I highly recommend you reconsider. If not for yourself, you must do it for your children.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Vagabond
03-22-2000, 07:19 PM
TAF,

Respect you though I may, I'm unwilling to enter into a full-fledged debate with you on the virtues of drinking. You have your opinion, and I have mine. Both are valid, and that's all I have to say.

Bottoms up!



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

theahnfahn
03-22-2000, 07:20 PM
Oh, just one more thought. If beer and women are the greatest things in your life I pray you never mix the two. Love between a man and woman should be something special that is shared not while intoxicated, but in a sober state of total giving to your partner.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

theahnfahn
03-22-2000, 07:22 PM
Vagabond:
I understand, but I at least want you to recognize your opinion is the only one with a possible negative outcome.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Vagabond
03-22-2000, 07:33 PM
TAF,

Agreed. There are always possibilities, both positive and negative for virtually every action conceivable. One must find a rational, comfortable balance among these possibilities.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Ikhnaton
03-22-2000, 08:44 PM
taf, it is only because of the puritan influence that americans feel the way you do. if you go to europe with that same mentality, you might as well lock yourself up in your room.

drinking in europe is about socializing, as well as taste. In europe, as opposed to many people in the US, they do not drink to get drunk. It is fallacious to think so. And if it isn't fallacious, then Jesus was a drunkard.

There is nothing intrinsically wrong with alcohol, just as there is nothing wrong with food. Too much of either can kill you or mame you.

one more thing, NA wine doesn't really exist, and if it did, it would taste like crap, as do most NA beers. And you sure as hell can't find NA stouts anywhere.

Calling those who drink irresponsible or drunkards is wrong and judgemental. I am very responsible when I drink. I never drink on an empty stomach or pound multiple shots or anything like that. If i do drink more than I think i should have, I have a DD.

yes, you can have a good time without drinking, but alcohol is a relaxant which can be actually good for you. My grandmother is over 80 and her doctor ordered her to have two highballs a day.

Like i said, don't knock it til you've tried it. By all means, don't ever get into drinking at a keg party or in college or something like that. if you ever decide to start drinking anything, make sure you are at a social event at someone's house where there are plenty of responsible adults there who won't give you any peer pressure. My parents raised us on wine with dinner. I've been able to have wine at dinner, supervised, since i was about 12. My parents would leave booze on the counter because they knew they could trust us. Since you were raised to fear alcohol and not respect it, your viewpoint is exactly the opposite.

Alcohol is not evil, not something to be feared, but something to be aware of and respected.

LDB_Leeman
03-23-2000, 06:38 AM
Hey! *hic!
Where'sh my Alderaanian ale?! *hic!*
You all make me shick! *hic!

Just joking. Alcoholism = bad....

Leeman

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www.thereckoning.co.uk (http://www.thereckoning.co.uk) - My Personal Starcruiser.

theahnfahn
03-23-2000, 04:28 PM
Finally, someone agrees with me (besides Wiz, of course http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif)

Ike, let me tell you why I feel the way I do because you still don't understand where I am coming from. No, I don't think we should outlaw alcohol, even though the world would be a better place without it. This is the same with guns - some people hunt for sport with them and they think there is absolutely nothing wrong with having one for protection, even though more people die every year from handgun accidents than people who are saved with a gun.

That puritan influence is a load of crap. I only had one friend in high school who didn't drink alcohol, and my best friend finally figured out it was a bad thing and he stopped as well. This has NOTHING to do with influence - we are all humans and this chemical affects us in the same way. Opium used to be socially acceptable, tobacco used to be socially acceptable, so how do these differ from an alcohol?

You say "There is nothing intrinsically wrong with alcohol, just as there is nothing wrong with food. Too much of either can kill you or mame you." Too much of ANYTHING can kill you, even water. You can't differentiate good from bad when you say something like "I'm only doing a little bad so it doesn't make that much of a difference." If the amount of alcohol you drink doesn't affect you, why drink it at all?

You think I keep implying that everyone who drinks is a drunkard who will in all likelihood go kill someone while under the influence. Obviously I'm not that stupid. But here me out! Every reason you have given for wanting to drink is completely selfish. What is one ever to accomplish while they drink alcohol? Nothing. Think about that. I find that if you live for other people and love them there is no need to pleasure yourself with a lethal substance that has PROVEN to be a problem in all walks of life. Again, all this substance does is alter the state of your brain. If you aren't happy with who you are and alcohol changes that what more can I say?

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Ikhnaton
03-23-2000, 04:58 PM
It promotes socializing. Obviously you don't know what it is like to stop at a bar for a drink or two to relax after a long stressful day at work. People who have had a drink or two relax and open up more and can talk and socialize more. Inhibitions are lowered. It doesn't make you a different person (unless you drink too much and are an angry drunk or something), what happens is that it is easier to express things that you normally might be shy or whatever to talk about.

I go to karaoke joints every so often. I know that when I get up there for the first time, each time that I go, even though i've done it a million times and love it, I still get shaky and nervous. Now, if i have a couple of drinks before I go up, it is a lot easier and not only am I relaxed, but my vocal chords are relaxed. This is obviously not high on your list of reasons to drink, but it ranks up there with mine.

People take sleeping pills or other sedatives to relax. do we chastise them? Obviously, too much of them can lead to sickness or death.

Your statement about "only doing a little bad" is based on the assumption that drinking alcohol in any amount is bad. Drinking alcohol is NOT bad. getting drunk IS. Eating food is not a bad thing, gluttony is. Gambling is not a bad thing. gambling away your families food money is. It is all about excess.

The effects of alcohol in moderation is not a bad thing either. Think of it as a medication, a stress reliever. You seem to think that chemicals that alter the body are bad things, but then you have to include any kind of medications or anti-depressants or things like that. Stress is a bad thing and is detrimental to your health. Alcohol relieves stress. Like I said, my grandmother's doctor prescribes two highballs a day to her. It obviously is not a bad thing in moderation. Jesus drank wine on many occassions. In fact, the Passover meal involved at least 3 glasses of wine, perhaps 4, but I'm not sure. Were all Jews doing wrong or drunkards?

Condemn those who get drunk, don't condemn the social drinkers who enjoy a good beer to relax after a hard day's work.

Vagabond
03-23-2000, 05:28 PM
TAF,

Just to toss in some food for thought, if your sole argument is that alcohol introduces chemicals into your body which alter you consciousness, then you're about to be sorely disappointed: everything you eat introduces some type of chemical into your body, be it lettuce, chocolate, tea, sugar, starch, carbohydrates, and even alcohol. You seem to have applied a label of bad to alcohol based off of the fact that it introduces chemicals in your body. All these substances neutral. Place the blame on the people who consume these subances in an irresponsible manner.

Furthermore, why are you so obsessed with other peoples' behavior? Is it because some peoples' altered behavior could somehow affect your life, perhaps through a drunk driving accident? If so, wouldn't you then agree that you too are behaving "completely selfish"? If so, blaming all people drink alcohol for the drunk-driving accidents is like blaming all Germans for the acts of the Nazis in WW2, or saying a person of X nationality wronged me so all people of nationality X are bad. You seem to be making broad generalizations about those who don't see moderate drinking in the same evil light that you do.

Again, I've no interest in engaging in an all-out debate. Just wanted to point this out and perhaps get you to clarify your position.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

theahnfahn
03-23-2000, 07:46 PM
Ike, you say "Alcohol relieves stress." Yes, this may partially be true because alcohol is a depressant, but for a frequent social drinker like yourself one of the main reasons you feel relieved is because you may have a mild addiction to this substance in which the simple act of drinking alcohol pleases you. You raise a good but improperly presented point when you say "Think of it as a medication, a stress reliever." This is a valid statement, but I don't see how you possibly treat it as so. If you do, more power to you, but a medication is a prescribed treatment by a learned medical doctor to treat mental and physical ailments. Your grandmother's doctor may have given her antidepressant pills for all I care, but should YOU use them? All I am saying is that you are taking on a drug and using it to treat your problems, and if/when your problems get worse it may be too late for you to stop the addiction. I can somewhat understand drinking to somehow boost social skills like you say it does (again, I'm happy just being me when I am around friends), but drinking to relieve a stressful day of work is VERY unhealthy, and yes to Vagabond - I have seen this exact form of behavior before in people close to me and it only gets worse.

Ike, if you are in such a stressful state and find it hard to relax and socialize with friends, step back and take a look at your life. Drinking could very well be as great for you as you say it is, but I'd personally seek medical advice before you make this kind of decision for yourself. I don't hold this view to condemn you - I seriously know a great deal about alcohol and I wish you would tell a doctor in complete honesty your drinking habits and see what is best for you.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Ikhnaton
03-23-2000, 08:05 PM
My "drinking habits" consist mainly of a couple of drinks every thursday night (woohoo! it's thursday!), and a happy hour on friday at the Knights of Columbus hall. Then on the weekend I might have a glass of wine or two with my family at dinner. Anything else is too sporadic to mention.

Ikhnaton
03-23-2000, 08:07 PM
haven't you ever seen that fake advert?

"Beer. Helping ugly people have sex since 1869" (or some odd year, i don't remember)

lightbulba
03-25-2000, 06:06 PM
why drink alchohol when you have caffeine?
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http://www.starwars.com/snapshot/1999/20/img/merchant_sm.jpg
well, as long as health is second to money, nothing's gone wrong.

[This message has been edited by lightbulba (edited March 25, 2000).]

wizzywig
03-27-2000, 05:49 AM
Sorry to be away so long, but deadline pressure is fierce at the moment. But I had to come back and make some observations. I won't mention names, I'm just going to quote comments and respond:

To the one who said:

man, oh MAN! relax, peoples! have a drink!
i never had these kinds of responses at theforce.net forums!

Actually, that reaction seems like an over-reaction to anything that theahnfahn or I had to say about the subject of alcoholism. Could it be the voice of denial I hear? http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

j/k, j/k, J/K!!


No doubt - take a chill pill. No one's talking about drinking 'till you barf. And for all you religious zealots, even Jesus drank wine, so if that's your moral compass, it was okay with him.


Yep. He drank it, and He even made it (remember the wedding at Cana). I already said that alcohol, as a substance, is morally neutral. I have beer and wine in my home, though I consume it rarely and sparingly. And if it was ever illegalized, I'd never miss it.

It's alcohol-ISM that's the issue, as far as I'm concerned.

Well, no, actually, it's more than that. It's an ATTITUDE toward alcohol that I find alarming in this country.

For example: The idea that you need alcohol to have a good social time (I don't need it for socializing--I have a great time wherever I am, whoever I'm with--I don't need the ability to laugh at wallpaper in order to enjoy myself and others).


If I'm not hurting anyone by having a drink, then mind your own business.

Okay. But plenty of people who think they're social drinkers, who think they don't have a problem, ARE a problem, ARE hurting others. Problem with alcoholism is that people never think they've got a problem until they've either killed someone or destroyed their marriage (or other important relationships) or gotten date-raped or pregnant while drunk or somesuch thing. You can't tell a guy with a quart-of-gin-a-day habit that he's got a problem until he absolutely hits bottom--and by that time, he's already taken a bunch of other people to the bottom with him.

I have a friend who began drinking at age 13 (she thought she was in heaven when that first splash of Southern Comfort hit the back of her throat). Alcohol destroyed her marriage, many of her friendships, her career. Though many people told her she had a problem, she honestly could not see it until the day she landed in the hospital with a distended liver, with a hole in her esophagus from the gin she was drinking, with her gums bleeding and hair coming out in clumps. The doctor told her if she didn't stop drinking, she would die. She said, "You mean, like months or years from now, right?" He said, "I mean, days or weeks." That's when she got into AA. Even when she went to AA, she didn't believe them when they called her an alcoholic; "I've got a problem quitting, sure," she said, "but I'm not an alcoholic." The self-deception and denial that this stuff engenders is unbelievable.

TheAhnFahn says:

One thing I have learned over the years is that alcoholics and even light drinkers stick together. Same with smokers and drug addicts.

That's true. People generally stick with people who support and affirm their own vices--that way there's no judgment, no one to tell you you're overstepping a line. If I had a lot of friends, or even a few friends, who drank in my presence to the point of having a change in personality, I would take a serious look at myself and my own habits.

To anyone who would agree with the following statement, I have a question:

there is nothing like a frothy pint of Guinness in your hand that makes you feel like you're in heaven! (well, besides a good woman )

There's the statement, here's the question:

What is it about that pint of Guinness that makes you feel good? What exactly is the sensation you are seeking to achieve? Please describe it.

Understand, I like an occasional beer or glass of wine or Margarita. But I never go for a second beer or a third glass of wine. It's not that I may be driving. It's that I don't want to reach the level where my thinking is affected, I feel woozy, and my inhibitions drop. I am not seeking the sensation that it sounds like other contributors to this thread are going for. Am I right?

If a pint of Guinness puts you in heaven, I'm betting it's not your first pint. And I'm betting it's the sensation of drink, not the taste of drink that is your goal. Am I right?

And before you answer me, first be honest with yourself.

See, I always see big red flags when I hear people say, "You need to lighten up. Don't knock it til you've tried it. Do not equate drinking with getting drunk." Maybe that's true. But denial sounds exactly like that.

Exactly.


taf, it is only because of the puritan influence that americans feel the way you do. if you go to europe with that same mentality, you might as well lock yourself up in your room.
drinking in europe is about socializing, as well as taste. In europe, as opposed to many people in the US, they do not drink to get drunk. It is fallacious to think so. And if it isn't fallacious, then Jesus was a drunkard.


This is a distortion of the US-Europe comparison. The puritanism shot is pure BS. Puritanism did not create an unhealthy attitude toward alcohol. The good ol' boy, bottoms up, let's have another round, the drinks are on me attitude, that's the problem, not puritanism.

You can't look at Europe as a whole and say there is a different attitude, so there's no problem. Look at it country by country. Go to France or Italy, and everyone grows up drinking wine. It's a table drink like Kool Aid for kids, and there is very little alcoholism in those countries because alcohol is no big deal.

But go to Ireland, and you have a situation much like America, where there is an attitude that drinking makes you a real man. The more you drink, the better you "hold" your liquor, the more of a man you are. That's the Irish attitude, that's the American attitude, that's the pint of Guinness in your fist is heaven attitude, and the result, both in Ireland and USA, is rampant alcoholism. It's that attitude (not puritanism, for cry-yi-yi-ing out loud!!!) that produces the problem.

Where wine is not a big deal, not a male rite of passage, alcoholism is not a big deal either.

So the net-net of it all, is that the comments that started out this thread are the kind of comments and attitudes toward alcohol that are indicative of the problem. I don't condemn alcohol per se, I use it. But it's no big deal with me. I don't drink it as a male rite of passage or to lubricate my social life or to get a buzz.

I not knocking the substance. But I think the attitude I've seen on this thread (Bartender! Set up a glass and leave the bottle! Whoopee! I'm in heaven!) is juvenile and stupid and it really sucks.

--wiz

echobase_69
03-27-2000, 11:23 AM
Tell you what, while we're on the subject of bashing alcohol why not have a go at smoking as well.
I've noticed a lot of people who don't drink think people that do just do it to get hampstered, an exageration of huge proportions.
It can be abused, but doesn't have to be. I like the taste, that's it, the effect is secondary.
And don't give any of that 'non-alcoholic' spiel cos it tastes foul.

Well Ike, if you ever get to go to Europe, as in the continent, not Britain, I recommend:
Pelforth - French Brown Ale
Chimay - Belgian Trappist Beer

Ikhnaton
03-27-2000, 01:43 PM
I've been to almost every country on the continent, as well as Ireland and Scotland. The attitude is sooo different on the continent, at least.

The Puritans taught basically that anything that was pleasurable was wrong, including alcohol. They infiltrated the US in New England and some of the other colonies and their views spread. Then the local governments started enforcing laws about alcohol that were pretty stringent and then a down the road, look what you got. Prohibition! If that isn't Puritan influence, I don't know what the hell is.

Wiz, you equivocate my "being in heaven" with a frothy pint of Guinness to a mental state or a chemically induced state of mind. I love the taste of Guinness. I love the taste of beer, wine, liquor. I rarely have ever drunk just for the alcohol. I admit that there have been times I have drunk for the effects and not the taste. Most of the time, I do drink for the taste.

I love Guinness. It is the best tasting stuff I've ever had. That first sip is just the best. Same thing as when I take the first sip of a coke, or the first bite of a juicy steak. It's the taste.

Vagabond
03-27-2000, 02:18 PM
Wiz,


...The idea that you need alcohol to have a good social time...


I never made that statement because I don't agree with it. I usually engage in social events that involve no drinking whatsoever, and I enjoy myself. However, I do occassionally engage in social events that do have drinking, and I enjoy myself in those situations as well.

It seems to me that you're making broad generalizations about anyone who says that he or she has enjoyed consuming an alcoholic beverage. What would make you comfortable wiz? If we said that we occassionaly drank alcohol, but we hated every bit of it? Is it not possible for us to actually enjoy a beer without being an alcoholic?

I suggest that you not jump to the conclusion that simply because someone actually enjoys consuming an alcoholic beverage, that the person in question is then automatically an alcoholic. Making such assumptions is both offensive to those you accuse, and makes you appear as a holier-than-thou puritan who has nothing better to do than to lecture people on morality.


------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

squirrel master
03-27-2000, 05:57 PM
Drinking Rulz! everyone have a tattooine sunburn on me!

BeastMaster
03-27-2000, 09:26 PM
I agree with the anti-alcoholism crowd (sorry, but I got tired of keeping track of names). I'm the only guy at this college who doesn't drink, and it's both because I have better things to spend my money on and because people around here (or rather around Residence, where I'm currently living) drinks to the point of insanity.

But, since this is a cantina, I'll indulge in the Official Drink of the Jedi Knights.

Barkeep, one hot chocolate --with marshmallows.

------------------
"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

TrinitY2K
03-28-2000, 12:00 AM
I donít drink very often, but I do drink. Iíll be honest, I donít like the taste of alcohol, per se, but I have tasted, for example, a strawberry Daiquiri with and without alcohol, and the one with rum tasted a lot better. When I do drink, I usually drink with the intention of feeling the effects of the alcohol, else I would just get a Coke. Yes, I admit it. But, I also believe that getting drunk is wrong. And these are my own personal beliefs. I know that people who donít drink probably donít understand, but there is a difference between drinking a couple of drinks and feeling ďrelaxedĒ and more sociable, and getting drunk.

Drinking and driving is wrong. Drinking to the point where you would do things that you would normally not do is wrong. These are my opinions, and Iím not saying that Iíve never gotten drunk. Overall, Iíd say, yes, I think weíd all be better off without it, and if drinking ever became illegal again, I certainly would not break the law. I guess I just wanted to say that I understand the viewpoint of those who are totally against it, and I would also say that if youíve never had a drink and you donít want to start drinking, donít. Youíre not missing out on anything major. Itís like owning a gun. You take on a certain responsibility, and some people just canít handle that. Everything in moderation, I believe.

BTW, I'll have a Martini, two olives. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif

Ikhnaton
03-28-2000, 12:58 AM
have another drink, sweetie, off me... er... i mean, on me http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

psyduck78
03-28-2000, 03:02 AM
I'll go with the.......er......hmmm.......do they do ID checks in here?

jk


------------------
I feel the need to say something profound, but I'm drawing a blank.

theahnfahn
03-28-2000, 05:44 AM
Everyone raises good points, and I have absolutely nothing to criticize, so let me give some advice. What I will try to present is the heart of the matter - the first decision we must all make, and once we have made that decision we can form our arguments either way. That is why we have such varied and split views on this subject matter.

Face it people, it is as simple as this - the choice to drink alcohol is entirely selfish. It can't be anything more, it just can't. People don't make friends with alcohol, they make friends with people who drink alcohol. There is no purpose to drinking it except for personal pleasure. There is nothing it can do to please anyone else. If the only affect it has is for personal satisfaction why does it still ruin so many lives, kill millions, worry people like me? I'll tell you.

You aren't accomplishing anything. You're living your life and doing something for yourself that may hurt others. You may get to the point where you hurt yourself, and that isn't how life is supposed to be. Taste? Sure, let's compare alcohol to a softdrink. It isn't healthy, it isn't purposeful to drink alcohol. What makes it different than Root Beer? Root Beer is a taste, a satisfaction that brings pleasure that is realized through a given sense. ALCOHOL doesn't do this. Alcohol isn't bringing pleasure in any other means than to feed the addiction you formed from drinking it in the first place. It is a depressant, a drug that alters our perceptions and our pleasures. It doesn't bring true pleasure, it feeds an artificial pleasure.

Does alcohol help in social situations, does it taste good to you? Go ahead and say yes, I'll agree it does. But there are other things in life that will do this as well. Once, twice, or sometimes even three times a week my family gets together for a drink. A fruit drink. I'm the chef of the family, so I take some strawberry daiquiri mix, two limes, a banana, some pineapple icecream, an orange, and a bunch of ice and blend that stuff. My brothers help me and it is fun. We all drink it together and the taste is heavenly. Everyone feels a peace. It's one of the many things we get to do together as a family. Are we not getting everything out of alcoholic drinks I've heard so far, except NO ALCOHOL, no addictive substance that dulls the mind?

Nobody needs alcohol, nobody. Many want it. Some recognize the decision is entirely selfish. Few don't drink it at all. The decision was easy for me to make.

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

[This message has been edited by theahnfahn (edited March 28, 2000).]

wizzywig
03-28-2000, 06:01 AM
Ike--

(btw, welcome back to the forum!)

Re:

The attitude is sooo different on the continent, at least.

Exactly my point. The important difference twixt us and them is that the attitude toward wine and beer in places like France and Italy is blase, indifferent, no big deal. Wherever alc. beveragers are no big deal, alcoholism is no big problem. Wherever drinking is viewed as something that makes a man of you, alcoholism is rampant.


The Puritans taught basically that anything that was pleasurable was wrong, including alcohol. They infiltrated the US in New England and some of the other colonies and their views spread.


Puritans. Those are the guys who wear their belt-buckles on their hats, right? Haven't seen too many Puritans around lately. I don't think there's a Puritan church in my town. Haven't seen much Puritanism on my TV set or my radio or at the local video store lately. I don't think Puritanism has been any kind of potent force in these United States for a looooooooooooong time.

I also don't think Puritanism has much to do with TheAhnFahn's belief system. At least, in religious matters he and I have been discussing these past few months on these very forums, I haven't detected a particle of ye olde Puritanism.

Puritanism certainly isn't part of my makeup or background. There's an open bottle of Domaine St. George California White Zin in my fridge, and half a case of Natural Ice beer in my pantry--not the usual accoutrements of ye olde Puritans.

So that dog don't hunt.

My problem (I'll say again) is not with people who drink per se and it's not with the substance C2H5OH. My problem is with the attitude that drinking is cool, that drinking makes a man of you, that drinking is a necessary ingredient to social interaction, that drinking is the key to a good time. That attitude has a direct linkage with alcohol abuse. If our culture had the same sensible, no-big-deal attitude about drinking that you find on the continent, I'd have no objection.

But our culture fixation on alcohol is distorted, dysfunctional, unhealthy, immature and dangerous. I detected elements of that attitude in the discussion/banter that was developing in this thread, and that's why I responded.

--wiz

wizzywig
03-28-2000, 06:10 AM
P.S.

Ike, re:


I go to karaoke joints every so often. I know that when I get up there for the first time, each time that I go, even though i've done it a million times and love it, I still get shaky and nervous. Now, if i have a couple of drinks before I go up, it is a lot easier and not only am I relaxed, but my vocal chords are relaxed.


If a drink ever induced me to sing in a karaoke bar, I'd be in AA faster than you can sing the first line to "Feelings"!

--wiz

wizzywig
03-28-2000, 06:31 AM
Vagabond--

Re:

It seems to me that you're making broad generalizations about anyone who says that he or she has enjoyed consuming an alcoholic beverage. What would make you comfortable wiz? If we said that we occassionaly drank alcohol, but we hated every bit of it? Is it not possible for us to actually enjoy a beer without being an alcoholic?


I don't think I've made a single broad generalizaion. I think I've made a very finely sharpened point relative to attitudes about drinking. The questions you pose are absurd. I previously stated that I myself enjoy an occasional drink, but I do so without the Irish/American attitude toward alcohol which says that drinking is a rite of passage, a social lubricant, and a general all-around hoot. (Ironically, I am an Irish-American, and my great-grandfather used to run a sour-mash still in Tennessee http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif ).


I suggest that you not jump to the conclusion that simply because someone actually enjoys consuming an alcoholic beverage, that the person in question is then automatically an alcoholic.


I challenge you to find any such statement in my previous posts.


Making such assumptions is both offensive to those you accuse, and makes you appear as a holier-than-thou puritan who has nothing better to do than to lecture people on morality.

This Puritan labeling is getting kind of tiresome. It doesn't wash, but if I was a Puritan, I guess I'd have to start a new thread about the religious intolerance that's practiced towards Puritans around here (j/k!). If you think my comments make me "appear" to be a Puritan, what can I say? Seems Puritanism is in the eye of the beholder.

I've made it clear what my point is, and it is specifically targeted on an attitude toward alcohol. It is not targeted at a substance, a person, or the mere enjoyment of a drink now and then (something I myself do).

Here's an example (or more precisely, a metaphor) of the kind of harm I think this sick American cultural attitude toward drinking does in our society:

Every day, when I pick up my daughter from high school, I see a bunch of kids walking past my car smoking cigarettes. Why do they do it? It's illegal, and in theory it can get them kicked out of school (though the rule against smoking on campus, at least as kids are leaving campus, never seems to be enforced). But kids smoke because they think it makes them appear (1) cool and (2) more grown up. In reality, it makes them look like pathetic little twerps who are desperately trying to appear grown up.

When I see people make a big deal about drinking, I have the same impression of them that I have of the high school kids with the cigarettes. I don't think that of people just quietly having a drink, but I do get that impression of people noisily making a big deal about drinking. To me, it looks pathetic, it looks like people are trying to make an impression: Look at me, I'm drinking! Look at how cool and sophisticated I am!

That kind of dysfunctional relationship with alcohol is epidemic in our society. That doesn't mean I'm saying you drink like that. I'm not criticizing your drinking. I've never seen you drink. I don't know you. Don't take it personally.

I'm just saying we have a sick, dysfunctional society where alcohol is concerned, and it seemed to me that some of that societal attitude was reflected right here on this thread.

--wiz

Conor
03-28-2000, 01:54 PM
My cousin got me to try some amarreto(sp?) once, and that stuff had the most incredible taste. I normally don't like the stuff, but this was amazing. Liquid candy... http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

From personal experience, I know it is utter nonsense to say alcohol is addictive in small doses. My parents have something like 2 or 3 beers a year, and not much more wine. They could go the rest of their lives without it if they wanted to. Same with my other relatives who have a drink every once in a while.

I'll certainly defend the statement that there is nothing wrong with alcohol in and of itself. I seriously doubt that everyone I'm related to is a fluke in that they never have any problems with it.

------------------
"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

theahnfahn
03-28-2000, 02:54 PM
I also don't think Puritanism has much to do with TheAhnFahn's belief system. At least, in religious matters he and I have been discussing these past few months on these very forums, I haven't detected a particle of ye olde Puritanism.

Not even a particle? :'O(

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

wizzywig
03-28-2000, 04:01 PM
Brother AhnFahn,

Have I misjudged thee?

Art thou a Puritan after all?

--Ye Olde Wizzywig

wizzywig
03-28-2000, 04:07 PM
Seriously, AhnFahn--

I just meant that I had the impression (correct me if I'm wrong) that your beliefs and attitudes regarding alcohol did not come from any religious base but from actually seeing people who had drinking problems. In other words, your attitudes are arrived at on the basis of observation and experience rather than any kind of moralistic indoctrination or religious tradition--am I correct?

--wiz

Ikhnaton
03-28-2000, 04:16 PM
wiz, the whole thing about the puritans is that their philosophies have trickled down through the years and traces can still be found in society to this day.

ahnfahn, if you claim that drinking suits only selfish motives, then you need to stop certain other things like eating sweets of any kind. After all, it is only for the taste, and not nutritional value that you eat it. and the bad effect outweigh the good.

My points about puritan influences still present today are pretty much proven by theahnfahn's statements, I think.

Vagabond
03-28-2000, 05:44 PM
wiz,


..If I had a lot of friends, or even a few friends, who drank in my presence to the point of having a change in personality, I would take a serious look at myself and my own habits...What is it about that pint of Guinness that makes you feel good? What exactly is the sensation you are seeking to achieve? Please describe it...It's that I don't want to reach the level where my thinking is affected, I feel woozy, and my inhibitions drop. I am not seeking the sensation that it sounds like other contributors to this thread are going for...If a pint of Guinness puts you in heaven, I'm betting it's not your first pint. And I'm betting it's the sensation of drink, not the taste of drink that is your goal...I don't condemn alcohol per se, I use it. But it's no big deal with me...


Take a look at what I've quoted you as saying here, and look at it objectively. To summarize, from my point of view, you come into what is obviously a light-hearted thread, and then start making judgements about people in here based off of your own personal beliefs toward alcohol.

Some of your apparent beliefs:

You don't want friends who drink such that their mental state is altered whatsover.
Implied is that you don't want to drink such that your own mental state is altered whatsover.
Implied is that since you hold the previous two beliefs, that everyone else should hold those beliefs as well.
And by your last statement, you seem somewhat hypocritical in that you yourself drink, but only because you drink "responsibly" - that is without the desire for mental alteration according to you.


And now for some further analysis:


...If you think my comments make me "appear" to be a Puritan, what can I say? Seems Puritanism is in the eye of the beholder...Could it be the voice of denial I hear?...


I don't know, is it the voice of denial? Perhaps you should more thoroughly examine yourself and your beliefs to determine whether or not you possess puritan-like values. From my limited exposure to your beliefs, it rather looks that way. What's the saying? If it looks like a puritan and sounds like a puritan Or how about, A puritan by any other name would still be as conservative.


...When I see people make a big deal about drinking, I have the same impression of them that I have of the high school kids with the cigarettes...


When I see people make a big deal about religion, I have the same impression of them that I have of the inquisitors and the crusaders. That can cut both ways my friend. Impressions don't mean squat. Get to know the people before you start spewing accusations of alcoholism.

And for the record, I personally believe that smoking is a foul habit. But as long as they do it such that it doesn't affect me in any way, then more power to them. That's what Republicanism is all about isn't it? (I'm making the assumption that you're a republican based off of your highly conservative social statements) Small government and power to the people, right?


...I don't think that of people just quietly having a drink, but I do get that impression of people noisily making a big deal about drinking...


Again, impressions don't mean squat. And even if someone did make a lot of noise, and enjoyed getting a buzz from drinking, and becoming less socially inhibited, you know what? Big deal. If that type of thing doesn't suit you, then by all means you shouldn't partake in such behavior. No one's asking you to (maybe that's part of the problem). But by the same token, you have no right to condemn others for enjoying an activity that doesn't harm you, and by all external warrants is causing them not large measure of harm. True, they might be alcoholics. It's also true that they might be celebrating their son's graduation from college; a celebration need not be a subdued, quiet affair. It's true, some people are actually extroverted, loud and boistrous. These traits do not make them alcoholics. Again, snap judgements are unfounded.


...I'm just saying we have a sick, dysfunctional society where alcohol is concerned, and it seemed to me that some of that societal attitude was reflected right here on this thread...


We have two different views of what was going on here. You saw the bad, I saw the fun, light-heartedness of the post. Could there be alcoholics posting in this thread? Could be. I have insufficient data to make such a statement. And so do you. So unless you actually have credible evidence to prove your suspiscions, why don't you just lighten up and stop raining on everyone's parade. Learn to have fun. Don't be so preachy. And for the love of God, don't be afraid of losing control once in a while. It can be very liberating. And always remember, no one likes a control freak.

P.S. I actually think you're a pretty good person wiz. I just think you tend to get up on your soap box a bit too much. Too much for my liking anyway. If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif


------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

theahnfahn
03-28-2000, 07:25 PM
ahnfahn, if you claim that drinking suits only selfish motives, then you need to stop certain other things like eating sweets of any kind. After all, it is only for the taste, and not nutritional value that you eat it. and the bad effect outweigh the good.

Yes, you raise a good point, and I must have not presented my case to you. Do I think it is healthy to eat sweets all the time? No. I don't do it all the time. I never have been overweight and I never will be. Is candy as harsh as alcohol, does it alter perceived reality? Alcohol does, candy does not.

Why do I not consider myself a hypocrite? Candy tastes good. I could just as easily let it sit on my tounge and enjoy the taste, afterwards spitting it out. What do you think gum is? I don't swallow the candy knowing it will have an affect on me. But you do this with alcohol. You have conjoined taste and social relaxation with a harmful depressant.

Now, why do I think drinking alcohol is selfish, yet turn it right around and say eating candy is not? Eating candy is a way to enjoy life, to please yourself without harming yourself or anyone else. It is a celebration, not an open want to change the way you act and think. I'm not going to go for candy when my friends show up and I feel I should fit in. I don't need it to do silly things that the real me wouldn't normally do, like go up on stage and sing at a bar. You have openly admitted, whether you know it or not, that alcohol makes you a different person. It has an affect on who you are. When this is the case, you are using it to become something you are not. I don't eat candy to do this, I eat it to please the real me, not some other person I look forward to becoming once a week in a bar.

Now do you see what I mean? Pleasure nearly always comes at a cost, but certain costs can't be mistaken for the day-to-day lives we all live. You can't tell me that if I eat candy I am no different than you when you drink alcohol because both can have a negative affect. I might as well not eat any food at all - too much of it will make me fat so I shouldn't even do it at all. The selfishness I put forth was not to say doing things to please yourself and nobody else is wrong. My point is that doing things to yourself that make you feel better yet change who you are, and as a result change others' perception of you, is selfish.

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Vagabond
03-28-2000, 07:43 PM
TAF,


...My point is that doing things to yourself that make you feel better yet change who you are, and as a result change others' perception of you, is selfish...


So, if someone goes to college, educates him or herself, learns more about the world thereby changing him or herself, resulting in the person feeling better about him or herself, then I guess that person is just a selfish bastard, according to your personal definition of what selfish is.

Furthermore TAF, just because you personally don't like the idea of consuming a substance which alters your personality in some way, doesn't mean that it is wrong. It just means that TAF doesn't like it and shouldn't do it. It doesn't mean that those people who don't mind feeling relaxed or getting a slight buzz from the occassional drink are alcoholics. You just have a philosophical disagreement with the side-effects of drinking alcohol. And to be honest, that's perfectly cool with me. What's not cool is you preaching to all of us to do as you do because you seem to think that you know what's best and us other adults are incapable of rational reasoning. I believe you and wiz are behaving in a very condescending manner and I greatly resent it.



------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Ikhnaton
03-28-2000, 08:09 PM
alcohol, unless consumed in large quantities does not have a vast change on your personality. Sure it relaxes some of your inhibitions, which enables some of your more hidden traits come forth, but that doesn't mean you are a different person.

I am a hypoglycemic. When I get hungry, I get grouchy, cranky, etc. Then I eat something and the chemical reaction changes me again.

What about bipolars? Who they are is that bipolar person. They, in their native state, are that manic depressive person. Yet they take personality altering chemicals. Again, why is this no different? I drink alcohol because I like the taste, and one of the nice effects is that I get more relaxed and am able to communicate more freely with others, which to me is good, considering I am a fairly shy person. All of the stuff I communicate is inside me, but my inhibitions and self consciousness prohibit me. This doesn't mean it isn't possible without alcohol, it is just easier.

The fact of the matter is, there is nothing more wrong about drinking alcohol than there is about eating food. Doing either to excess is wrong, but just doing it in moderation is not wrong and it is wrong, IMO, to condemn those who do drink in moderation; either by the false assumption that they are drunkards or by claiming they are selfish. You're just as selfish by trying to impose your views on us and comdemning us.

If Jesus drank, then it's good enough for me.

theahnfahn
03-29-2000, 12:58 AM
Vagabond-
You took my quote out of context. You can't expect my belief system to rely on that one sentence, now can you?

Ikhnaton, and whoever else-
I get the feeling that you, and others, are beginning to take offense. Do you think I am here to blab my mouth off? It makes no difference to me whether you drink or not, except I care. I have no argument that you enjoy alcohol - it's obvious you think very highly of it and go to great lengths to defend it. Trouble is you are no different than an alcoholic in denial, from my perspective. I have no idea that you may only have one drink a week and then tell yourself "No, I shouldn't have any more." Drinking, smoking, heroin - all these in moderation are fine from your perspective. Do as you wish, and if it screws you over you will know my point.

Personally, I can't live with anyone who drinks. Even one beer and I don't like what a person becomes. Is this my selfishness or yours, when you do something for/to yourself that hurts me? I will not tolerate comparing alcohol to food. The comparison is absurd. Might as well compare eating fish to eating humans. You say "You're just as selfish by trying to impose your views on us and comdemning us." Again, I have absolutely nothing to gain from this. I just feel humanity and all it stands for is disrespected by drinkers. If we can't live with what we are and rely on chemicals to change us I don't know where we are headed. Alcohol is not a bad thing. It is just another lump of matter. Your attitude towards it is what disturbs me.


------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

psyduck78
03-29-2000, 02:23 AM
Hey man, you know what?
I think a little alchohol here and there is ok, I mean for those who drink say, wine for its flavor and their own reasons its ok.

If you drink to get drunk, now thats lame.

------------------
I feel the need to say something profound, but I'm drawing a blank.

Vagabond
03-29-2000, 03:08 AM
TAF,


...I get the feeling that you, and others, are beginning to take offense...


Since I've already come out and said several times that I'm taking offense to your statements, then yes I'd say that you're on the right track here. Talk about being thick.


...I have no argument that you enjoy alcohol - it's obvious you think very highly of it and go to great lengths to defend it. Trouble is you are no different than an alcoholic in denial, from my perspective...


Your perspective is out of focus. I defend my right to consume an alcoholic beverage without being labeled an alcoholic. You know nothing about me nor anyone else on this board. Armed with such lacking personal knowledge of us, you are way out of line laying down the accusations that you have.


...I have no idea that you may only have one drink a week and then tell yourself "No, I shouldn't have any more"...


Exactly. Yet you have the nerve to come in here and start lecturing us adults in here about how we should be leading our lives. How we should conform to your lifestyle, and how we're bad people if we don't. I'm not a child, much less your child, and again, I highly resent the pompus manner in which your statements are written.


...I just feel humanity and all it stands for is disrespected by drinkers...


I feel that humanity and all it stands for is disrespected by people who condemn others because they don't share the same belief system.


...Your attitude towards it is what disturbs me...


I don't have an attitude toward it. I have an attitude toward freedom and mutual respect. I have an attitude toward self-determination, tolerance, and acceptance of the differences among all people; I embrace these differences.

What angers me is people who lecture others with this greater-than-thou attitude; people that think they have all the answers; people that think they know best and the rest of us are too stupid to figure anything out for ourselves; people who tell you how wrong or bad you are for not following their own personal beliefs.

Don't get me wrong. I love discussing peoples' beliefs, especially ones that are different from my own. But when people tell me that I'm wrong because my beliefs are different, then my response quickly turns hostile. Some of you here can already attest to this.

Don't condemn me if I'm different than you, and I'll return the favor.



------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

theahnfahn
03-29-2000, 05:09 AM
From those quotes:
1)"...from my perspective."
2)"I have no idea..."
3)"I just feel..."
4)"...is what disturbs me."

This is my opinion, not what I believe is concrete. You say:
when people tell me that I'm wrong because my beliefs are different, then my response quickly turns hostile.

Did I say you were wrong? No, I told you how things are viewed from my perspective. There is nothing to base our beliefs on, and the matter can be totally relative. How would you feel if I told you I used heroin, LSD, mirajuana, and sniffed paint in moderation? We all have to draw the line somewhere. Like Ike (that rhymes) presented, there is a fuzzy transition from candy/food to alcohol. In this manner, you could compare alcohol in moderation to smoking in moderation, smoking in moderation to hardcore drugs in moderation. I feel that sometimes moderation isn't enough. Some things just shouldn't be dealt with or else major aspects of our lives are at stake. I keep it real, taking the extent of mental pleasure/alteration to cookies with milk and occasionally icecream. Even if I abuse them and go beyond moderation, I can correct my mistake with exercize and abstinence and nobody can or will ever be harmed. Alcohol is different, no argument otherwise. Strict moderation should yield no hardships, but if you've even once felt a tad bit tipsy I wonder what you might do, what you might say, who's feelings you might hurt, who you may kill. I draw the line very early and only pleasure myself with stimulating, awareness unaltering, and RELATIVELY safe substances. Again, my argument here isn't that ALL alcoholic drinkers are "bad", it is that sooner or later a choice needs to be made on what substances we will ever practice moderation with, and alcohol has been proven to me to be a substance that does more damage than good, with use at any level. But yes, this is my opinion, and when you don't like what you hear don't start raving that I am "Big Brother" coming to supress your freedom.

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

theahnfahn
03-29-2000, 05:27 AM
Oh, and when I said humanity and all it stands for is disrespected by drinkers, I meant that statistic:
Roughly one in eight American adult drinkers is alcoholic or experiences problems due to the use of alcohol. The cost to society is estimated at approximately $166 billion each year.

Even if you think you do drink in moderation, you should think about that.


------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

wizzywig
03-29-2000, 05:58 AM
Vagabond--

To summarize, from my point of view, you come into what is obviously a light-hearted thread, and then start making judgements about people in here based off of your own personal beliefs toward alcohol.


Sorry to rain on your light-hearted thread. I will make this response, then leave you to your fun.

First, I haven't judged anybody. I've expressed an observation regarding an attitude that I detected, which I think is typical of an unhealthy relationship our culture generally has toward alcohol. I never accused anyone of being an alcoholic. I never told anyone not to drink. I defy you to find a single statement in any of my posts that does so.


Perhaps you should more thoroughly examine yourself and your beliefs to determine whether or not you possess puritan-like values. From my limited exposure to your beliefs, it rather looks that way. What's the saying? If it looks like a puritan and sounds like a puritan Or how about, A puritan by any other name would still be as conservative.

Throwing around labels like "puritan" and "conservative" is a substitute for substantive discussion. When you label me a "puritan," I'm supposed to shrink from my position and think, "Ohmigosh! People are gonna think I'm a *gasp!* Puritan! I'd better change my tune!" Hey, call me anything you like, I really couldn't care less.

Ike has made the same suggestion, that TAF and I are ignorant victims of trickle-down puritanism and don't even know how brainwashed we are. But my views, as expressed on this thread, are not derived from religious strictures (I've already said that Jesus hallowed the making of wine at Cana, and I have no problem with the substance per se). My views are derived 100 percent from observation. I am not a prohibitionist, and I am not a teetotaler, but I insist that our culture has a very unhealthy and immature view of drinking. And that's really the long and short of what I'm saying.


When I see people make a big deal about religion, I have the same impression of them that I have of the inquisitors and the crusaders. That can cut both ways my friend.


Twisted analogy. The attitude of an "I'm so cool" smoker and the attitude of an "I'm so cool" drinker are virtually identical. It's about image, it's about appearing grown up and sophisticated in both cases.

But saying that all religious people (such as Mother Teresa) are the equivalent of Torquemada and the other Inquisitors is not just silly, its libelous. Let's stay within the realm of reason and reality, shall we?


Impressions don't mean squat. Get to know the people before you start spewing accusations of alcoholism.

I have specifically said that I am not accusing anyone of anything. In a previous post, I have specifically and pointedly said I am not acusing you of anything, much less of alcoholism. What part of that do you not understand?

You seem to be offended by things I have never said.


That's what Republicanism is all about isn't it? (I'm making the assumption that you're a republican based off of your highly conservative social statements) Small government and power to the people, right?


(Is that a snap judgment? http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)

And you want to bring politics into this? I haven't and I won't. This discussion has been touchy enough without going there.


you have no right to condemn others


I don't condemn anybody.

snap judgements are unfounded.

I haven't made snap judgments. I have been talking very specifically about cultural attitudes, not individuals. I have been dealing in principles, not personalities.


Learn to have fun. Don't be so preachy. And for the love of God, don't be afraid of losing control once in a while. It can be very liberating. And always remember, no one likes a control freak.


Why are you preaching to me?

(My friends who know me would think that what you said there is really hilarious.)


If I wanted your opinion, I'd give it to you


On a forum, folks are entitled to give opinions and even jump up on the soapbox for a while. That's what a forum is all about. 'Least, that's how I see it.


why don't you just lighten up and stop raining on everyone's parade.


C-ya.

--wiz




[This message has been edited by wizzywig (edited March 29, 2000).]

Conor
03-29-2000, 03:00 PM
I'm sure you'll correct me if I'm wrong Vagabond but...


Don't get me wrong. I love discussing peoples' beliefs, especially ones that are different from my own. But when people tell me that I'm wrong because my beliefs are different, then my response quickly turns hostile. Some of you here can already attest to this.


It seems you are saying you like discussing others' beliefs as long as they don't disagree with you.




------------------
"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

Vagabond
03-29-2000, 03:31 PM
Conor,


...It seems you are saying you like discussing others' beliefs as long as they don't disagree with you...


No, what I'm saying is that I love discussing other peoples' beliefs; I like to have them explain them to me and I like to explain mine to them. If one of us gets something from the discussion, then great; if not, that's fine too.

But, if during the course of the discussion someone starts trying to convert me, and starts telling me that I should change my beliefs, and that if I don't I'm wrong, well that just pisses me off.

Does this clarify my statement for you?


------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

abcd
03-30-2000, 02:41 AM
hi, I am in happy Star Wars land. lalalal. I come here to relax and talk about star wars. lalalala. not to talk about alcoholism. alalala. i do that in the real world. so, my buddy R2D2 and I would like to talk to you about STAR WARS. If it statistics on alcoholism and religion ou seek, take my friend R2D2 and talk to him, he isn't supposed to be here either(on account of being a droid and all) so have a nice day

abcd
03-30-2000, 02:43 AM
mabye C-3P0 wants to convert. Go find him. bye!!!!!

Kat
03-30-2000, 02:51 AM
That was random....

------------------
"Will you write it down so I don't have to pay attention?"-Timothy Yang Yuen Cheng

Conor
03-30-2000, 04:13 AM
It clarified it, but I still disagree rather strongly.

Whether you think you are or not, you just tried to convert me. You basically said that if I try to tell you that you are wrong, then I am wrong for doing so (If you don't think I am wrong it wouldn't make you angry). So you are saying I shouldn't try to convert you, in essence saying I am wrong in doing what I do, and should change.

I happen to believe telling people their beliefs/opinions are wrong/unfounded/untenable is very right and should be encouraged. You obviously think I should change, that I am wrong in my beliefs, and are violating your own precepts.

I await your response. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

------------------
"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

Vagabond
03-30-2000, 02:02 PM
Conor,


...You basically said that if I try to tell you that you are wrong, then I am wrong for doing so...


What I'm saying is by attempting to force your beliefs on an unwilling person, you are being inconsiderate to that person. If you'll notice, I've never told anyone that their beliefs during this alcoholism discussion were wrong. I've consistently said that if they don't enjoy alcohol, then by all means they shouldn't drink it. I respect their point of view and their wishes, and I expect the same respect - not to be lectured and preached to.

All I'm saying is that there need to be a protocol, a mature set of rules that people follow when having a heated discussion or debate like this. Regardless of our different opinions, common courtesy should be given to all. And that includes not telling people they are wrong if their opinion just happens to be different from your own.

Because who are you? You're Human. For you to tell someone they are wrong, means you could just as likely be wrong as well. And then you get into this childish back-and-forth name calling contest about who's right and who's wrong, and then the intellectual dialogue is lost.

We just need to present our points of view, explain why we feel the way we do, and then leave it at that. Maybe one or both of us will gain something from the discussion as long as we follow this open, and respectful protocol. And like I said before, if we still hold our initial beliefs after this discussion, then so be it. Calling each other wrong isn't going to suddenly make one of us change our beliefs; if anything it will only entrench us more.

Does any of this make sense to you Connor?



------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Conor
03-30-2000, 02:51 PM
I see how you feel, although I still have no idea why it offends you when people tell you that you're wrong. I'm glad when people care enough to point out when I am mistaken or outright wrong about things.

Another thing I disagree with, is the idea that I am just as likely to be wrong. Not all beliefs are equal. I could be wrong in a number of things I believe, yet the likelyhood is very low.

You proclaimed one of my pet peeves loudly. You said I or others were trying to force our beliefs onto you. Nonsense and Balderdash. Anyone that tries to convince another person they are right, by extentsion in every circumstance is saying the other person should believe as the arguing party does, by the simple fact that it is right to be right and wrong to be wrong. I ask you, how is saying that you should do something forcing you to do that thing? You can always ignore it.

In every discussion in the history of the human race, each side has proclaimed truth, or else there would be nothing to discuss, no point or counter-point. In this discussion right now, you are trying to convince me and others that to say that you are wrong about something is to do something inherently (in your eyes) wrong. I could just as easily say that you are trying to force your beliefs on me (It would still be nonsense, but by your logic I could) because you are finding fault with my beliefs and saying I should not do something.

------------------
"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

Vagabond
03-30-2000, 03:30 PM
Conor,


...Another thing I disagree with, is the idea that I am just as likely to be wrong...


You don't know how arrogant and pompous that sounds. I interpret that as you basically saying that you're perfect and infallible, which is nonsense because no one can be absolutely right about everything.


...You said I or others were trying to force our beliefs onto you. Nonsense and Balderdash...


Then explain to me why TAF and Wiz would interrupt what is obviously a light-hearted thread and start lecturing us on the evils of alcoholism? The implication was clear to me; they were trying to get us to give up our evil ways, as they see it, despite the fact that they knew nothing about us. If this thread were titled, "What do you think about alcoholism?", that would be one thing. But to intrude into a fluff thread such as this and begin preaching - I take offense to that. Christ, is no thread safe for light-hearted discussion? Look out, here come the fun-killers to rain on our parade and preach to us again!


...how is saying that you should do something forcing you to do that thing...


I never said that saying I should do a thing would force me to do that thing. I said I don't like it when people attempt to force their beliefs on me. It's arrogant, inconsiderate, and it pisses me of. People should practice common courtesy; have some social awareness; realize that how what you say and how you say it will affect other peoples' reaction toward you. Acting like a pompous fool isn't the way to get converts.


...I could just as easily say that you are trying to force your beliefs on me because you are finding fault with my beliefs and saying I should not do something...


I'm not trying to change your beliefs at all. What I'm asking you to do is to change your behavior when it comes to the mechanics of how we carry out a debate. You can still belief whatever the hell you want; I honestly don't care. I don't even care if you don't agree with my ideas on how debates should be carried out. But if you can't honor my simple request for courtesy as I've explained here, then it seems that we don't even have a common basis upon which to carry out an intelligent debate.

And remember, just because you believe something strongly does not give you an excuse to thrust that opinion on everyone else. If you practice some social awareness, you'll realize that you're actually being counter-productive to your cause when you behave in such a manner.

The sharing of beliefs in a respectful manner - that's what I'm interested in. I'm not interested in lecturing people nor being lectured. Nor am I interested in labeling people as being wrong or being labeled as wrong myself. That's for each of us to decide for ourselves.

Conor, I've explained my position clearly to you now, and I'm tiring of re-explaining it. To summarize, I hope you can honor my request so that we can engage in future debates. If you can't though, that's fine too; we just won't debate anything.

Take it easy.



------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

wizzywig
03-30-2000, 03:41 PM
Conor, Vagabond--

I absolutely agree with Conor.

Vagabond, you repeatedly told me how wrong I was in previous posts. It seems you want the right to say others are wrong, but no one can disagree with you.

Look, the very core assumption of any debate is that one side is right, the other is wrong. Take a political debate. Each side vigorously and unabashedly tries to portray itself right and the other side wrong.

Or take a debate between a Creationist and an Evolutionist--these debates take place on college campuses all the time. Both sides can't be right--one must be right and the other wrong. It is absurd to say that both are equally valid. So both sides present their best evidence and their best arguments, and it is accepted by each side that the other side will do its best prove its case true and the other side false. No one thinks it unfair or uncivilized.

Vagabond, you say:


What I'm saying is by attempting to force your beliefs on an unwilling person, you are being inconsiderate to that person.


I can't force my beliefs on you without tying you down, putting tape over your mouth and bamboo shoots under your fingernails and torturing you into screaming, "Yes, you're right!" To say, "I believe I'm right (or even, I believe you're wrong) and here's the evidence to back up what I say," that's not forcing anything on you. That's free expression, which is not only guaranteed by the first amendment, but it is time honored practice in internet forums.

To say you're wrong is not to disrespect you. It is not to lecture or preach to you. It is simply to disagree with you, and to express oneself. There is nothing wrong with people getting on these forums and trying to persuade others to their own points of view. That's what these forums are here for.

You talk about having "a protocol, a mature set of rules that people follow when having a heated discussion or debate like this." I think maturity is nothing more than the ability to accept the give and take, the exchange of ideas, being told "You're wrong and here's why" without getting (your word) "pissed." That's maturity.

People tell me I'm wrong on these forums all the time. You've told me so many times yourself. I don't get "pissed" about it. I either respond with arguments of my own--

Or sometimes I learn from it and change my mind. I welcome the prospect of learning and growing and changing from these discussions. I wish you would welcome that prospect as well.

--wiz



[This message has been edited by wizzywig (edited March 30, 2000).]

theahnfahn
03-30-2000, 04:03 PM
Vagabond-
What is your problem man? You sit around and pick sentences out of context and take monstrous offense. You wonder why I started all this, why I was the first to be offended that you people would start such a discussion? Alcohol has proven unquestionably to have an extremely negative impact on humanity. Your "lighthearted" mood, your "fun", is being read by people of all ages, CHILDREN, when they visit this forum. Had I never said anything, would anyone else reading this know you supposedly drink in total moderation, never once have EVER been drunk? No, you'd rather pin me down as a puritan nutcase who's never done anything fun and who is intollerant of anyone who drinks alcohol. You could sit in a locked room and drink till you exploded for all I care now, but why bring others down with you, why sit here and act like alcohol is no big deal and it will never be anything more than fun to you because you are too good to let it overcome you?

Do you feel that you have complete control of your alcoholic intake? Sure you do, nearly everyone who drinks, alcoholic or not, thinks this. All I say is WHO ARE YOU TO JUDGE that what you are doing won't harm you, won't harm people around you, won't end up killing someone even just after 1 beer? This discussion, mostly because of my persistence, has lead to all the drinkers here to admit to this - that this substance affects you, and you drink it because of this. Now, the affect it has with misuse is astronomical, and I pity you if you're at this level and you still defend your position. Suppose you are what you say you are, though, and drink in COMPLETE moderation. Fine, take the risk of forming an addiction to a substance that you obviously go at great lengths to defend, that once you form the addiction your life may be ruined and you will not be able to turn it around because you hold the views you hold now. With that in thought, even if you drink 1 beer a month, go get medical approval. Next time you visit your doctor, ask him/her what they recommend, as learned specialists on the human body. I don't need to do this because I take the easy way out and don't use alcohol at all, but when you take this serious, adult matter as an argument where we are the puritan crusaders come to ruin your fun it destroys all sense of respect I have for your judgement and character and I think you need to seek medical advice. Simple as that. When you come back here and say your doctor believes we are no better than you for abstaining from alcohol then I'll keep my mouth shut. BUT, if your doctor tells you that it would be better for your health and mental stability to not drink at all, I think at that point you MUST admit this is no longer a matter of opinion, and we have every right to press you on not drinking. Until then, you can say what you like, but please don't think more highly of yourself when in our eyes all we are doing is trying to help you.

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Ikhnaton
03-30-2000, 04:06 PM
Alcohol has proven unquestionably to have an extremely negative impact on humanity. Correction: Alcoholism has proven unquestionable to have an extremely negative impact on humanity.

Do NOT mix up the two or interchange them.

Vagabond
03-30-2000, 04:16 PM
Blah blah blah blah blah! I feel like I'm speaking with space aliens (that is if you believe they exist). This so-called discussion is over for me. Have fun wallowing in your infinite arguments...



------------------
VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Darth Kurgan
03-30-2000, 05:46 PM
(I need to watch those typos.. lol)

LoL, even these "drinking game" posts degenerate eventually into hearty debate. I guess it's in some of our "natures" to want to argue.

See what alcohol does? And some folks want to legalize ALL recreational drugs.. what are they thinking?!

Vagabond, are you tempting those "religious zealouts" again? Yes, the bible doesn't say anything about not drinking alcohol. Although it does condemn "drunkenness" and "drunkards." But in moderation, nothing wrong with a little wine. Now if you're a Muslim, that's a whole different story!

And I think there is a cultural connection here. Drinking in the US seems to be viewed as something bad, and "Europe" seems to view it as something good. How about Russia? Or, since we keep mentioning good ol' JC and his buds, the Middle East? I don't drink, not because I think I might become an alcoholic, but because:

1) Saves money.
2) Taste isn't anything special. Hey, I don't drink coffee either for this reason.
3) I figure that way I won't have to hang around people who DO drink to excess or worry about them begging to me to share a cold one with them. ; )

you could probably apply those same reasons to my choice not to smoke, although I'd add lung cancer in there too.

If we want to be political, here's one question I have: why is it that certain, shall we say "political minded folks" insist that we BAN alcohol and cigarettes, yet, those same people are often the biggest proponents of legalization of (or as they call it "ending prohibition") other recreational drugs, like marijiuana, cocaine, heroin, etc. Last I checked alcohol and tobacco had "medicinal" uses as well. And like guns, aren't they "morally neutral substances" until somebody takes them and abuses or uses them to excess or in the wrong situation? What are these people thinking?! I think it all goes back to who gets the money from what special interest group that makes them say such contradictory things. Either that or they are just confused or misinformed.

Fact: make anything illegal that was legal before, and you'll have more crime. Why? Because at least SOME of the people who were used to doing it before will continue to, breaking the law, even if it's a tiny number.

Fact: If you legalize something that was once illegal, you're going to have more people doing it legally than were doing it illegally before. Why? Because fear of the consequences of the law DOES deter some people (however small the number may be) from doing it anyway. Legalization then allows these people to try it ("it's legal, we've got nothing to lose.."). This would apply to nearly everything (maybe not full frontal lobotomies in your backyard, but for most things..).

Fact: Criminalize something, and you'll have to spend more money stopping crimes committed as a result of the new law(s).

Fact: Legalize something and you have to deal with the consequences of more widespread use of the legalized product or service. Not everyone is responsible enough to use it properly and in the proper context. Keep in mind there's virtually no way to guarentee kids won't get their hands on it from irresponsible parents. And even if you could restrict something to only adults, there's always the possibility of theft.

Took me awhile to get through this loooong debate, which I initially ignored because this kind of post is not a rarity on these message boards. This one suprised me, because there were actual chairs being thrown. I even saw on guy swinging from the chandelier! (he was unharmed when he was thrown to the ground seconds later by a burly bubbling gorilla).

One thing I will say: getting drunk once doesn't make you an automatic alcoholic.

Alcohol can still cause harm. Think of this: a person, who is NOT an alcoholic, gets together with his buddies, celebrating his 21st birthday, let's say. They say "have another one, you've earned it!" and such, and such until he's totally wasted. So are they, so none of them gets a designated driver, and they all get in the van and go out on the open road. The kid is driving and he passes out at the wheel. They crash and all are killed. Now not one of them in that hypothetical situation (which I would be willing to bet has actually happened more than once in the history of the world), was an alcoholic, and they were all just having a "good time" and they were consenting adults.

Now I am not saying we should ban alcohol, we should just not be so hypocritical in our attitudes and so angry about people simply because they dare to disagree with our heartfelt opinions.

I'm amazed that I seemed to detect Vagabond and TAF actually get MAD in this thread. I don't recall anyone getting that pissed outright in any of the other discussions (even the God Thread). I guess because while not everyone believes there's a God, alot more people puff a cig or chug a beer now and then.

Kurgan

[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited April 03, 2000).]

squirrel master
03-31-2000, 05:42 PM
every one! I drink to get drunk and im proud of it. Im sure when some one created the first alcoholic drink it wasnt for the taste it was for the intoxication. Because in truth most alcohol tastes like sh!t.

theahnfahn
03-31-2000, 10:04 PM
How about this: If alcohol, when in moderation, is not a bad thing, then who here would go for a ban on hard liquor? Makes sense to me.

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Conor
04-01-2000, 06:00 AM
Not a chance. A ban on something as completely ingrained in human civilization as alcohol would simply not work (and hasn't if I am right about what happened during prohibition).

People would not accept it, the law would not be honoured. Even if it was a good thing, and I'm not convinced it is. Myself, I plan on drinking some red wine every once in a while, whether I like it or not. It is supposed to loosen up the arteries and help the heart, and I could use all the help I can get. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

------------------
"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

theahnfahn
04-01-2000, 04:43 PM
You missed my point, I said hard liquor. I'm talking about the stuff that is made for the sole purpose of getting you drunk - fast. I really don't see how alcohol is different than any of the other drugs I am sure most of you are against. Tobacco has slowly been making its way out of our society. They may not ban it, but prices will continue to rise until people who are too ignorant to follow the law must do so anyway because the stuff is so expensive. I've been attacked the whole time here, but I still haven't received some of the answers I was asking for. When in moderation, what differentiates alcohol from any other harmful drug? Should everything be legalized, with the American population having complete trust in each other over using any drug in moderation? I am pretty sure where most everyone here draws the line, but maybe if you try to tell me you will figure out I'm not the only one that is supposedly a hypocrite.

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Kurgan
04-03-2000, 03:31 PM
Oh, another thing, about prohibition.

Sure, there was alot of alcohol related crime during that period, etc. Today you don't have that as it was then, but you have other "drug" related crime. The argument is that if you legalized all those drugs, if people want to do it, fine, even though they're shooting themselves in the foot. The main point of the argument is, to reduce crime. But it's kind of silly when you think about it.. yeah, legalize EVERYTHING and you eliminate all crime! Wee! Think about it.

You can use the same logic to legalize ANYTHING, from suicide, murder, prostitution, infanticide, arson, to whatever you want.

The biggest problem with the whole "war on drugs" is that we're basically hypocrites. We allow tobacco and alcohol, which do as much damage, if not more damage than some of the drugs we are "fighting against." That's not the whole story though. We also have, in the past, allowed illegal drugs to enter the country, under whatever pretenses (free trade, diplomacy, political favors, experiments, corporate oversights, you name it), and we have also in the past supported known drug lords, who happened to be pro-USA (a shame we pick such corrupt allies at times).

The thing is, during prohibition, despite all the negative propaganda from the liquor-drinkers and such, we had some of the lowest rates of alcoholism in history. Why? Because most law-abiding citizens didn't get their liquor-fix, so they just went without.

Pro-liquor folks need to just admit to themselves: you enjoy the buzz you get from drinking, and/or the way in which your social circle accepts you when you drink. Yeah, it's about freedom to live your life how you want to, but let's not pretend this is some transcendental thing that the demons of prohibition want to take away from you.

Not saying the prohibitionists are right either, just pointing out that they aren't simply "wrong" "just because."

Kurgan

Conor
04-03-2000, 04:14 PM
Well, the baseline is, I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with alcohol, as I do with tobacco and an assortment of other drugs.

Is there any evidence at all that infrequent drinks or drinking in small amounts has any adverse effects whatsoever?

------------------
"Preach the Gospel. If necessary, use words."
-St. Francis of Assisi

theahnfahn
04-03-2000, 04:54 PM
Kurgan:
Very, very well put. I agreed with nearly all of it.

Conor:
"Is there any evidence at all that infrequent drinks or drinking in small amounts has any adverse effects whatsoever?" Well, I think of it this way - if you don't start, what harm could it do you, so why even drink in moderation? Would a slight sniff of paint once a week do any noticeable harm? Probably not, but why in the world do it in the first place? This is where it all ties together, where we hit the base of the argument that Kurgan presented. When you are drinking you are doing it to please yourself, and nothing else. THIS PLEASURE MUST BE RECOGNIZED AS SOMETHING THAT IS NOT ONLY BAD WHEN ABUSED, BUT BAD BEFORE THE ABUSE BEGINS! Everyone here agrees that alcoholism is a bad thing, but the first step to alcoholism is that first drink. My position is that this substance has proven beyond any reasonable doubt that it forms an addiction in some users, and it is impossible to predict who will become an alcoholic and who will remain a moderate drinker.

Absolutely nobody needs to drink alcohol. I refuse to accept that the taste has anything to do with what drinkers are defending here. There are billions of other tastes out there, and the alcohol is put into beer/wine/etc. for one purpose - to retard the brain. Sure, a little alcohol won't do that much to you, but then why are you using it?

From looking at the affects alcohol has had on so many human lives, I again advise anyone who drinks to ask a doctor if the level of your alcohol intake is too high, ask a doctor if you stand any chance of forming an addiction, and ask yourself if it is really worth it. Many, if not all of the people here seem to have the correct attitude on alcohol (some call it respect, but I really do prefer not to use that word). In some cases attitude isn't enough when dealing with substances like this.

Now, before I am attacked again, I'll defend MY actions. This whole argument is on substance use and substance abuse. ANY substance can be used and not abused, whether it be sugar, alcohol, marijuana, or platonium. Using all of these in moderation and under the correct conditions I see no harm can be done. I eat candy. Is that bad? Actually, it would do me better if I didn't do it, and I admit that. But relative to alcohol candy does me little harm, and I am very healthy and am positive eating things that taste good every now and then won't hurt me. I will know when they do, however, because I'll be overweight or my blood pressure will be too high. I think this is different from alcohol in that alcoholism can sometimes be entirely mental. A person may look healthy, not gain weight from drinking, have a healthy liver, but may still have the mental addiction that won't be noticed until someone is hurt. Does that make sense?

------------------
And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

wizzywig
04-06-2000, 04:18 PM
I came across this article today in The Sacramento Bee newspaper; it illustrates exactly what I've been talking about regarding dysfunctional American attitudes toward drinking--the attitude that drinking is a "rite of passage" into manhood and adulthood. This attitude toward drinking kills people...

[The boldface emphasis in the article was added by me.]

--wiz

================================================== ========

"21 For 21" Kills UC Davis Senior
By Terri Hardy
The Sacramento Bee

April 6, 2000
Like many students across the nation, UC Davis senior David Thornton celebrated his 21st birthday by consuming 21 drinks.

It's called "21 for 21."

For Thornton, whose parents live in Fresno County, 11/2 hours of binge drinking, combined with drug use, proved fatal, officials said. Less than an hour after the last drink, he choked on his vomit, stopped breathing and died at Sutter Davis Hospital early Tuesday.

"It's a typical rite of passage among students," said Davis police Lt. Don Brooks. "You drink 21 drinks as fast as you can."

Thornton's father, Rod, called the death "a tragic mistake." Torn between grief and anger, he said the grim facts of his son's death belie the richness of his life.

"He was not a party person. He was hard-working," Rod Thornton said Wednesday. "Not many kids have that kind of academic background."

David Thornton was a former valedictorian at Clovis West High School who carried a 3.36 grade-point average in college and volunteered for the National Ski Patrol.

"You don't do that if you're out partying every night," Rod Thornton said.

His son, a senior studying biological sciences with aspirations of attending law school, should have made better decisions when he went with a group of friends to a downtown Davis bar Monday night, Rod Thornton said.

Still, he believes a culture that accepts, even encourages, such binge drinking was a motivating factor in his son's actions.

Public health experts who focus on college students agree Thornton's ill-advised birthday ritual is being practiced across the country.

"It's been around for years," said Jim Rothenberger, chairman of the American College Health Association's Alcohol Task Force and a public health professor at the University of Minnesota. "It's a potentially fatal practice for anyone, unless they weigh over 400 pounds."

University of California, Davis, officials said that before this week, they didn't think the national fad posed a local threat.

"We believed it was not a tradition that had a great deal of prominence, but as we asked more questions, we became more aware of the practice," said Carol Wall, UC Davis' vice chancellor of student affairs.

Efforts to educate students on drinking will now include warnings on "21 for 21," Wall said.

================================================== ========

Vagabond
04-06-2000, 05:06 PM
If you're going to cite absurd behavior as justification for banning alcohol, then why not cite the 1000 lb. fool who ate himself to death as justification for banning food?

To me, this is merely an example of natural selection at work.



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

wizzywig
04-06-2000, 05:51 PM
Vagabond--

1. I have never advocated banning alcohol.

2. My only point in quoting this story, the one point I've repeatedly stated and which you never seem to grasp, is that we have a sick, dysfunctional attitude toward alcohol in this country.

3. While this is "absurd" behavior as you state, it is not rare behavior. As the article notes, "21 for 21" is a widespread, epidemic, nationwide fad, engendered by the very attitude I've been talking about, the idea that drinking is a rite of passage to manhood/adulthood.

4. Is it really natural selection at work when the victim is a former valedictorian with a 3.36 university grade-point average? I hardly think so. This young man was not suicidally stupid; he got caught up in a cultural mindset that destroyed him. I see it as a symptom of something much more sick and insidious in our culture.

Btw, I don't mind you responding to what I post. I am continually baffled, however, that you keep responding to things I never said.

--wiz

Vagabond
04-06-2000, 06:15 PM
wiz,

My mistake, it was TAF who was advocating prohibition.

Anyway, back to this valedictorian that drank himself to death. One thing I've noticed in life is that a significant portion of people with a high level of book smarts, tend to be deficient in common sense. Let's face it, it doesn't take genius to reach the brilliant conclusion that drinking 21 drinks as fast as you can will likely lead to your own demise. He may not have been suicidally stupid, but he was stupid nonetheless. Like I said, I believe this is a classic example of natural selection in an urban environment. You apparently have a different belief, and so here we are http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif



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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...



[This message has been edited by Vagabond (edited April 06, 2000).]

Ikhnaton
04-06-2000, 06:18 PM
taf, I have to say that your last post really made me sick. Your whole attitude that this substance that is only used for personal pleasure is a bad thing made me want to puke.

You really show your ignorance of alcohol.

wizzywig
04-06-2000, 06:19 PM
Actually, Vagabond, I agree with you on the book smarts/common sense distinction. Good point.

--wiz



[This message has been edited by wizzywig (edited April 06, 2000).]

Vagabond
04-06-2000, 06:54 PM
wiz, thanks.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

theahnfahn
04-06-2000, 07:46 PM
Roughly one in eight American adult drinkers is alcoholic or experiences problems due to the use of alcohol. The cost to society is estimated at in excess of $166 billion each year.

Alcohol is a key factor in 68% of manslaughters, 62% of assaults, 54% of murders and attempted murders, 48% of robberies, and 44% of burglaries.

I make myself sick too, Ikhnaton. Now listen to me, and PLEASE stop treating me as someone who doesn't even have the right to tell you why I feel this way. Every solid point I have made, every question I have asked the drinkers to answer, has been left untouched with a measly response like "You make me want to puke." Fine, you simply can't stand me, and I can't help that. I say the things I do because I care for your situation, and if you cared for mine you would do more than refuse answers to my questions and disrespect my opinion without backing up yours. I hardly have the time to keep defending myself here, but now it seems I am defending someone else entirely. Will everyone please stop pinning things on me and taking offense at things I don't even say?

Vagabond says "My mistake, it was TAF who was advocating prohibition." What in the world?!? The second Wiz the Prohibitionist declares for the 10th. time he doesn't want a ban on alcohol somebody else needs to be the unlucky target? I can't see how I could possibly make my point any clearer, but I will go ahead and take another hour out of my day to express this to you.

http://www.health.org/pubs/catalog/RP0s.htm#Alco
That is a website. As we all know by now alcohol is a drug, and should be treated as such. Read the affects of abuse AS WELL AS mild, moderate use.

http://www.health.org/pubs/qdocs/alcohol/bac-chrt.htm
Another website, more informative than the last. For men, IMPAIRMENT begins with one drink. If you don't know what that means:

impair(v)-to make worse, less, weaker; damage, reduce.

Impairment on any level has shown to have disadvantages, so it can be said drinking on any level has disadvantages, which is a totally truthful statement.

http://www.health.org/pubs/qdocs/alcohol/teenalc1.htm
A good article with many points, of which I will qualify.

"Information from the 1998 NHSDA shows that the level of alcohol use is strongly associated with illicit drug and cigarette use...53% of current alcohol users also smoked cigarettes as did 71% of binge alcohol users and 77% of heavy alcohol users"

"People who begin drinking before age 15 are four times as likely to develop alcohol dependence and more than twice as likely to develop alcohol abuse than those who delay drinking until age 21 (Grant and Dawson 1997)."

The article goes on and on, explaining the vast number of drinkers UNDER LEGAL AGE who drink alcohol. Under parental supervision or not, alcohol consumption is ILLEGAL until the age of 21.

No Vagabond, I do not wish a ban on alcohol. That, after seeing the affect I had on drinkers for just expressing my dislike for the substance, has shown me how much some of you praise this substance. I wish that everyone would make the realization of what this substance has done to humanity, and make the conscious decision, to CHOOSE not to drink. I can't force this on you, but when drinkers openly express their disgust for my opinion and their understanding that I am an ignorant fool, then what am I to do but abstain from expressing my opinion? Well, I never get my feelings hurt, so keep up the disrespect and I will keep telling you what I feel.

Now, again, why I feel this substance is bad. As of yet I still haven't heard an answer to a question I have asked repeatedly - What differentiates alcholic moderation from moderation of "worse" drugs? As seen from one of my above quotes, drinkers also smoke cigarettes. The also have a higher percentage of other drug use. Now, answer this for me, please. Why is it correct for the government to declare some drugs illegal under your train of thought? I should be allowed to do whatever the hell I want, just as long as it doesn't get out of hand. YOU TELL ME how I can know your drinking is and will always be under control, so I don't have to worry that you are living an unhealthy lifestyle or will kill someone under impairment.

I presented a valid proposition earlier. I asked what would be wrong in banning HARD LIQUOR, the kind with a high alcohol percentage meant for the sole purpose of getting drunk. If you don't drink for that reason then what is the problem? I don't think I was out of line for asking everyone's opinion on that.

So what is my position, you are asking. Here is another website, with the positive health affects alcohol has.

http://www.health.org/pubs/qdocs/alcohol/alcohol45.htm
This website goes into many details on why MODERATE drinkers may have reduced risk of heart disease. Now, I argue that one could just as easily seek a prescription that would be less expensive, have no risk of forming a fatal addiction, and do just the same for heart disease, but nothing is stopping you from drinking. But the article also says:

"The apparent benefits of moderate drinking on CHD mortality are offset at higher drinking levels by increasing risk of death from other types of heart disease (5,16,32); cancer; liver cirrhosis; and trauma, including trauma from traffic crashes (47). Moderate drinking is not risk free. The trade-offs between risks and benefits can be exemplified by the fact that alcohol's anticlotting ability, potentially protective against heart attack, may increase the risk of hemorrhagic stroke, or bleeding within the brain (12)."

So, like always, alcohol is a tradeoff. I have admitted this all along. You drink it for personal satisfaction, and it has its advantages and disadvantages. IN MY OPINION, the disadvantages far outweigh the advantages, but that is my opinion and I recognize it may be flawed. As I have said repeatedly, which has made many people wish to puke, I advise you to see a doctor about your drinking. That is all I ask, all I wish of you. Is that not totally innocent? In all likelihood both perspectives we argue are flawed, but for anyone who drinks what harm could it do to seek medical advice outside of what you believe yourself, have read, or have heard from me?

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn

Vagabond
04-06-2000, 08:09 PM
TAF,


I do not wish a ban on alcohol. That, after seeing the affect I had on drinkers for just expressing my dislike for the substance, has shown me how much some of you praise this substance...


I don't praise alcohol. I praise my freedom, and don't like people telling me what to do or how to live my life.

What you are observing is a manifestation of me fighting for my individual liberty. If I want to drink an occasional alcoholic beverage, then I will fight for that option. I would be just as vocal over my right to watch porn, burn the American flag in protest, for a woman to chose to terminate her pregnancy, or for a terminally ill person to terminate his or her own life.

So long as what I do doesn't harm anyone else, then what I do is my business. I'm all about freedom and choices, and I will fight viciously to preserve these freedoms if necessary.

P.S. I do not want to enter a debate on flag burning, porn, etc.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Ikhnaton
04-06-2000, 08:15 PM
taf, i never stated that i couldn't stand you, but your whole position on this just shows a narrow mindset and ignorance of anything other than stats. Statistics never lie, but liars use statistics. I'm not saying you're a liar.

Hard liquor is NOT for the sole purpose of getting drunk fast. People who pound shots, yes, but those who drink sex on the beach, or rum and coke or whatever is a totally different story.

ever read warnings on the back of certain cold medicines? They warn about drowsiness and other possible impairments. should they be banned too? I mean, you're only taking it to relieve symptoms so that you feel better. Isn't that selfish? Why not suffer?

The fact is, if you say that drinking is always wrong for the reasons you do, you have to condemn a lot of other things.

If, by your drinking, you seriously damage your health, or cause any kind of injury (physical or mental) to someone else, then that is bad. But just to drink in moderation is NOT BAD!! If it was bad, then Jesus was a sinner. But since I don't know whether you believe Jesus was God or not, I don't think that carries any weight with you. But since I still consider you, in my mind, as being an agnostic, why would you be concerned about a "vice" such as selfishness? What merit do you see in being unselfish?

Just as there is nothing wrong with eating food that tastes good, or eating candy, or taking medicine to make you feel better, there is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation. If you think all drinking is bad, try to convince my 83 year old grandmother's doctor of that. She has been prescribed 2 highballs a day (those contain hard liquor which you want to ban). Would you deprive my grandmother of her medicine?

wizzywig
04-06-2000, 09:05 PM
Just an observation:

It seems to me that TheAhnFahn has taken the high road of factual discussion, backed up by data. Vagabond, too, expressed himself admirably, clarifying the real source of his feelings in the matter.

I'm troubled that Ike resorts to ad hominem attacks of this sort:


taf, I have to say that your last post really made me sick. Your whole attitude that this substance that is only used for personal pleasure is a bad thing made me want to puke.
You really show your ignorance of alcohol.


I also think it unwise to widen the war into the realm of religion (I should talk, right? http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)

Ike-- You do have me intrigued. What conceivable medical condition is treatable with a coupla highballs a day? Sounds like placebo therapy to me, but if I'm wrong, I'll stand corrected.

--wiz

Ikhnaton
04-06-2000, 09:25 PM
I don't know my grandmother's medical history, I just know that she said the doctor told her to have 2 highballs a day. Are you going to argue with a doctor?

Ikhnaton
04-06-2000, 09:27 PM
btw, wiz, I didn't attack his person in any way except to say that he is showing his ignorance of alcohol. I said that his arguments and his position make me sick. I've been reading this thread a lot and posting a lot less, but most of ahnfahn's arguments just upset me.

wizzywig
04-06-2000, 09:38 PM
The fact that TheAhnFahn doesn't drink doesn't make him ignorant. In fact, the information he presents gives me the impression that he is extremely well versed in the subject. At the very least, he's done his homework.

A person doesn't have to have been to Jupiter to be a very knowledgeable astronomer. A person doesn't have to be a drug addict, or even a one-time user, to be an authority on addiction.

You certainly have every right to disagree with TAF, but the term "ignorant" seems wildly inappropriate, from where I'm sitting.

And the intense expressions of disgust (puke, etc.) bothered me a lot.

--wiz

theahnfahn
04-06-2000, 10:20 PM
Just as there is nothing wrong with eating food that tastes good, or eating candy, or taking medicine to make you feel better, there is nothing wrong with drinking in moderation. If you think all drinking is bad, try to convince my 83 year old grandmother's doctor of that. She has been prescribed 2 highballs a day (those contain hard liquor which you want to ban). Would you deprive my grandmother of her medicine?

Ok, let me just add to my last post. Ikhnaton and Vagabond and everybody else - I don't think ALL DRINKING is bad. This has been my indirect point all along, but I guess you have missed it. But in this manner, any and all substances, when used in moderation, are not bad. Don't you see this? Nobody has answered my question yet, why we would outlaw some drugs and not others. My stance is that ALL substances should be treated with respect, and you obviously treat alcohol in this manner. But respect isn't always enough! You keep going back to the argument about candy. Let us just say we compare drinks, root beer to alcoholic beer. It would take months of soft drink abuse to have an affect on your health, and I argue it would never affect your mental judgements. But two drinks of alcohol and there is no argument that something COULD happen. I'm not saying it ever will, but you run a FAR greater risk.

Your grandmother serves my argument more than yours. She was PRESCRIBED two highballs a day. A ban on hard liquor would only stop easy access to abusers of this substance, whereas your grandmother could still go to her local pharmacy and pick up her prescription under medical supervision. Again, all I am asking is to have respect for the substance (which you do), NEVER abuse it, and do not simply rely on your judgement on the level and frequency of your alcohol intake. Any drug of this sort, a depressant, should always be taken under medical supervision. But when you are also tagging terms to it like "tasty" I fear your judgement may be skewed by other aspects of the substance. If I ever started to like the taste of codeine I wouldn't under any circumstances trust my judgement to use it in moderation as a relaxant. As always, I admit my opinion serves little to you, but don't treat yourself as something greater than a statistic until you go to your doctor and in complete honesty, without sugar-coating anything, tell them exactly your drinking habits and your uses of any other harmful substances (i.e. tobacco, mirajuana, etc.) for personal pleasure.

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And there he is. The reigning champion of the Boonta Classic, and the crowd favorite-TheAhnFahn