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Kylilin
06-27-2000, 04:39 PM
Last night I saw the movie "Dogma" for the first time, funny movie. But...it is a movie that deals with a lot of Catholic ideals, hence the name.

In a nutshell, the movie goes like this. A demon from hell creates a plot to get out of hell by using two angels who were exiled from heaven and living on earth. If these two angels could get back into heaven it would make God's will flawed and existance would cease. It is the job of 4 people to stop these angels from attaining their goals, one of them being a relative of Jesus Christ himself.

Thats not even close to the entire plot of the movie because I don't want to give anything else away to people who want to see the movie.

The point is, I was interested in some ideas presented in this movie.
One in particular was that there was no right or wrong way to worship God, whether it be Judaism, Islam, Catholicism, whatever it may be, there are just different ways. Faith is Faith, no matter what. As one of the characters said, "there should not be any beleifs, there should only be ideas, an idea can be changed, but beleifs are a little trickier, people die over beliefs, wars are fought over beleifs"
and although this is coming from a movie, I tend to agree with it.
I myself was born and raised in the Catholic church, and although I don't find myself going to church that often(Easter and Christmas only) I think that my faith is substantial.

Vagabond
06-27-2000, 05:24 PM
I loved Dogma. I too was raised Catholic, although I'm finding myself feeling Agnostic these days. Anyway, I agree that there shouldn't be any correct way to worship.

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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

wizzywig
06-27-2000, 06:18 PM
Haven't seen the movie, but your description makes me want to.

--wiz

Kurgan
06-27-2000, 09:49 PM
The movie really isn't that deep and it's not really that funny either (unless you find repeated use of the "F" word and toilet jokes funny, hey, there's even a walking pile of dung in there).

Dogma, may spark conversations among agnostics, and those who don't think about religion very much, which may be good. It raises issues that aren't really anything new, but some may not have thought about them before.

In some ways, it seems to be mocking faith as it exists, but in other ways it affirms it.

The movie, in essense, is Kevin Smith's own view (Catholic) of religious faith. While a practicing Catholic, he may not be in line with the views of all members of the Church, of course.

A flawed work, but worth watching for those with open minds. It had its moments, although I was a bit disapointed.

Better than "Stigmata" though. ; )

Kurgan

Orbvs_Terrarvm
06-28-2000, 04:53 PM
There is a right way to worship God. And that is to worship Him the way he wants you to. Of course people don't like to hear that. People like to believe in God but that's as far as they want to go.

All the religions in the world can't be right, if so then God is a liar.

Truth is not relative to ones own perspective.

Jedi Calypso
06-29-2000, 12:13 AM
well, then,Orbvs_Terrarvm
that leads us to the question that numorous wars were fought and countless lives needlessly lost over, which one of our many views of worshiping, is right?

GOD bless,
-Calypso

Vagabond
06-29-2000, 01:33 AM
Agreed, Jedi Calypso.

Those who would pass judgement as to what is the correct way to love their God are missing the point.

It's not the mechanics of the love, but the love itself.

(Jeez, listening to me, one might suspect I'm a religious person; disclaimer: I'm not.)


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

wizzywig
06-29-2000, 02:05 AM
Vagabond, there is a lot of truth in what you say. You look at what Jesus said (as recorded in the gospels), and a lot of it boils down to the fact that having your heart right with God is a lot more important than rules and rituals.

--wiz

Conor
06-29-2000, 06:17 AM
Except of course for the rules given by God from His own mouth, which Jesus emphatically declared we were to follow if we cared at all about God (incidentally, one of those commandments is to convert everyone to Christianity, so God at least has some views about the correct context of worship). http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

As for Dogma, I know all I need to know about it, and I have no wish to see it. Or Stigmata. I know how irrelevant both of them are.

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"To believe anything at all is to believe it true. To believe something true is to believe that whatever is incompatible with it must be false. And to believe somebody else's belief false is implicitly intolerant. Therefore, if intolerance is an evil, belief itself-in anything-is an evil. So the only way we can get rid of intolerance is to prohibit belief. Which, of course, would be very intolerant indeed."
-Ted Byfield

Vagabond
06-29-2000, 12:59 PM
Conor,


...As for Dogma, I know all I need to know about it, and I have no wish to see it. Or Stigmata. I know how irrelevant both of them are...


How can you know that which you have not seen? Sounds like you're being close-minded to me. Either that or feeling threatened by opening yourself up to an opposing or satorical view of Catholisism. I urge you to see Dogma, if for no other reason than to view someone else's take on the Catholic church. You might find some enlightenment.


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

Orbvs_Terrarvm
06-29-2000, 03:35 PM
I wasn't trying to make anyone angry. Someone stated that maybe one can worship God any way they want to it doesn't matter and I just threw out a diiferent option that maybe God wants you to worship Him a specific way. And I am not talking about rules and rituals WIZZYWIG. I am talking about doing what God wants you to do.

I didn't tell anyone HOW to worship God. But a lot of people tell God how they are going to worship Him.

And yes, people have pointlessly died in countless wars. Hilter died for what he believed in and I really don't think God told him to exterminate the Jews, and eradicate all non white races from the earth.



[This message has been edited by Orbvs_Terrarvm (edited June 29, 2000).]

wizzywig
06-29-2000, 04:39 PM
Orbvs_Terrarvm--

I wasn't trying to make anyone angry. Someone stated that maybe one can worship God any way they want to it doesn't matter and I just threw out a diiferent option that maybe God wants you to worship Him a specific way. And I am not talking about rules and rituals WIZZYWIG. I am talking about doing what God wants you to do.

That is how I understood you, and I fully agree with and affirm what you say. My comment about rules and rituals was not directed at you or anyone else. I was merely affirming what Vagabond said that the reality and sincerity of worship is more important than the form of worship.

Orbvs, you make a good point. Jesus said that those who worship God must worship him "in spirit and in truth." Perhaps that has something to do with what you were alluding to.

--wiz




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"He is not a hnau," said the hrossa.
"What is a hnau?" asked Ransom.
"You are hnau. I am hnau. The seroni are hnau. The pfifltriggi are hnau."
--C.S. LEWIS, Out of the Silent Planet

wizzywig
06-29-2000, 04:42 PM
btw, Conor, I like your Ted Byfield sig so much that I temporarily made it my sig on the TrekBBS forum I've been posting on. (I change it every few days.)

But here on this forum, for the time being, I'm using an arcane quote by C.S. Lewis.

--wiz



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"He is not a hnau," said the hrossa.
"What is a hnau?" asked Ransom.
"You are hnau. I am hnau. The seroni are hnau. The pfifltriggi are hnau."
--C.S. LEWIS, Out of the Silent Planet

Orbvs_Terrarvm
06-29-2000, 05:29 PM
Wizzywig
Well, I was actually aluding to Cain and Abel. Where Abel brought an offering to God the first fruits of his flocks and Cain brought an offering to God of grain and fruit. God had favor for Abels offering and not Cains and Cain became very angry.

It doesn't say exactly how God showed favor but it does seem strange that God would show favor in the first place. But we do know that the shedding of blood is the attonment for sin. That is why Christ died was to pay our debt for sin. And in the Old Testament the sacrifice was done for attonment of sins up until Christ and was commanded by God. So that could explain why God showed favor to Abels offering. Also, you could say that since Abel offered his first fruits of his flocks that he had faith that God would supply his needs. It doesn't state specifically mention that Cain used the first fruits of his fruit and grain in his offering.

What is interesting is that Cain was so angry that God asked him, "Why has your countanence fallen? If you not do right will your countenance be lifted up?" God went on to warn him to not be angry because sin was "crouching at the door and it's desire is for you."

Did Cain choose to do right after that? No. I find it interesting that after this Cain told Abel about what had happened and then he rose up against Abel and killed him.

That is why I bring up the point that maybe true worship is worshiping Gods way. Which would be in "spirit and in truth".

Vagabond
06-29-2000, 05:50 PM
Well first off, in my opinion, the old testament has absolutely zip to do with Christianity.

Second of all, most of the stuff in the old testament never happened, in my opinion. So, in my opinion, it's hard for me to see how you can get hung up on how God wants people to worship, if you're basing your assumptions off of a bunch of fictional stories.

You will probably disagree with me, which is your right, but that's the way I see it.

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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...



[This message has been edited by Vagabond (edited June 29, 2000).]

Orbvs_Terrarvm
06-29-2000, 07:45 PM
Well, I have to respectfully disagree with you.

The OT has everything to do with Christianity. Jesus Christ himself talked about Noah and the flood, Moses, ect. so obviously he believed it. But then again, you probably don't believe Jesus was the son of God either so what He believed won't hold any credibility with you either.

I know you believe the Bible is full of fictional stories and that is your belief.
But I believe that the Bible is Gods word to us. Unaltered by man and everything in it has importance because God has spoken it. If I thought any less of the Bible I would not have anything to do with it. It would be a waste of my time. But God has done so many wonderful things in my life how could I ever deny it?

Gods word has been with us through the all of human history and I believe that He, being God, has the power to keep His Word unchanged and true.

If we deny that, what assurance do we have for what IS truth? You for sure aren't going to find it on television programs, or in the radio. We only have our reasoning and ideas as to what God is. And you would think that in our life discovering the existance of God would be one of the most honest and important tasks we should do. So I can't see how someone would not get hung up on how God wants people to worship.

Hewbrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

Vagabond
06-29-2000, 08:24 PM
Yes, we'll just have to respectfully disagree, which is cool. I disagree with most of the guys out here anyway http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

Anyway, I wanted to comment on this:


...Unaltered by man and everything in it has...


Well, according to this show, The Search for Jesus, the bible was altered a whole hell of a lot during the first few hundred years following the death of Jesus. Obviously these scholars they interviewed know alot more about the history of Jesus than I do, as they've dedicated their whole lives to it, and this is what they said. Take it for what it's worth, but if that's what you're basing your entire faith in the Bible on, then you may be in for a huge surprise.

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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...



[This message has been edited by Vagabond (edited June 29, 2000).]

Orbvs_Terrarvm
06-29-2000, 09:55 PM
I guess we will have to agree to disagree http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif I thank you for your respect in this subject. I never get into these discussions on the net because they camoflauge of being an "invisible" person on a message boards can lead to people saying some things without regard to the other persons feelings.

Well there are currently 28,000+ surviving manuscripts of the books of the Bible in existance. When it comes to finding altered versions, if you have 27,995 manuscripts that say, "Peter walked to Jesus" and the other 5 say "Peter ran to Jesus" I don't think there is much of a discussion of which translation is altered. The discovery of the Dead Sea scrolls this century were a major find also. Most of the scrolls predated the earliest manuscripts we had in existance by more than a thousand years. And a lot of critics of the Bible were curious to see how much the manuscripts would have been altered over that very long period of time. But to many peoples surprise, the scrolls texts are in substantial agreement with the Masoretic text as well as widely variant forms. Any discrepincies in the translations that were found did not change the meanings of the texts.

By contrast, have you ever studies any of Platos works in school? There are less than 10 of his original works existing ( I beleieve that Homer has only 1!)today but professors don't warn their class that they may be studying altered versions of thier work. They are generally accepted as unaltered originals.

But I don't want to get into a discussion on trying to prove things. We can prove all we want but it never changes anyones mind, right?

It is a decision that each individual must make whether they will accept God. We are not robots. It is a matter of faith. And in my life I have had some incredible humbling experiences that I can tell you about until I am blue in the face but won't do you any good. There comes a time when it is one person and God and that person decides to let Him show him/her the proof. Then there is no more doubt.


Hewbrews 11:6 And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that he is a rewarder of those who seek Him.

[This message has been edited by Orbvs_Terrarvm (edited June 29, 2000).]

wizzywig
06-29-2000, 11:23 PM
Orbvs_Terrarvm--

Just a quick post to affirm the stand you take and for stating your beliefs so cogently and respectfully.

--wiz

Vagabond
06-30-2000, 12:06 AM
You know, even though I don't agree with you, Orbvs_Terrarvm, I do find your polite respect very refreshing. Some people, both of faith and not, are very millitant about it, which is not helpful for meaningful discussion.

And you're right. Most of us aren't going to read something on the net and go, "Eureka! I can see clearly now!"

Anyway, it was nice discussing this with you, even if we disagree http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif


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VagabondNomad on the Zone...

All the world's a stage, and all the men and women merely players...

quite-gone gin
06-30-2000, 07:06 PM
Seems like a good group to discuss with. I am a Christian, I even have a degree in Bible. And my views about the word of God are a little different and I do catch grief over them. Bear with me as I share them, and they in part developed in reaction to the militancy Vagabond has observed and mentioned.

I see three "types" (for lack of a better word) of God's word: his spoken word, the written word, and the living word. He created by speaking (spoken). Many of his prophets and people have shared his word in written form (written) as the texts of the scriptures, and the word that was God, is God, was with God, and became flesh and walked among us (living)...Jesus. I believe that the word of God does go forth these days, through the mouth of true prophets and such, just like the word of God was written by the authors of the new testament books.

In my studies, I learned of all kinds of doctrines about the Bible as the word of God...it's infallible, it's ineffable...it's just myths and legends...you name it, it's out there.

I see the Bible as this...a compilation of texts written by God's people, some prophets, some historians, some kings, some apostles, some doctors, etc. I don't think that most, if any at all, of the authors thought, "Gee, I'm writing part of the Bible right now!" They were doing their thing: writing a letter of concern to a church in Ephesus, chronicling their history, putting their songs, psalms and prophetic words in writing, etc. Sure, these things were canonized later to be included in the Bible, but some texts didn't make it that sure might have, and even the catholic and protestant bibles differ some.

My point is, man has some part in the written word, he wrote it (even though inspired by the Spirit to do so, but I don't think that means some overiding trance where they woke up and, oh...I wrote something!), he's copied it over the centuries, he's argued about it, fought wars over it, written more volumes about interpreting it than a person could read in a lifetime (just go check out a Seminary's library!). And even if you spent your life reading those books, wading through the arguments, coming to your own conclusions, reconciling your ideas to new ones or ignoring new ideas because they don't reconcile to yours...you could do all that and miss what it's all about.

It's a book. I like it, I study it, it reveals truth to me...but it's a book. It's not infallible, just match up geneologies from different books! But I don't need for it to be infallible. I don't think God meant for it to be infallible because he doesn't want you to "find the book"...he wants to find you and you to find him. If the book was perfect, who would need a relationship with him...just follow the book and you'll be fine! And that book is not the sum total of what God has to say to us. He only put in there what he felt we need to know...it doesn't disclose all the mysteries of the universe...he is not under a full disclosure obligation to us...but it is a roadmap for life, and it's a treasure map that leads to a great treasure...Him, and to what you were created and designed by Him for in the first place.

The word became flesh...Jesus. It's faith in the living word of God that saves, not faith in the written word. The Bible didn't live and die for me, and won't allow for me to stand clean before God. Don't hear me wrong, the Bible is the word of God, it points in the right direcion, it commands, it challenges, it pierces hearts, it can separate bone from marrow, (and just look at all that Bible code stuff they're finding out by running the text through computers and picking every twelfth word, etc!), but it's a book meant for a purpose, it is not the summation of God, but his word to mankind on earth, meant to guide, inform, teach and direct us to him.

I tire of believers and non-believers arguing over the Bible. Why would a non-believer care about what the Bible says? Why should a believer care about what a non-beiliever says about the Bible? How did Jesus win people over?...Did he walk around with old testaments saying, "Here, read this...see it says such and such, and if you don't such and such, you'll go to such and such. Here, have a copy. Goodbye!" (Is that not what most of us believers do?) No, the living word of God had the same heart the God has for people...he fed, healed, hung out with, taught, loved, lived, cried with, laughed with, confronted, died for...man. And the Bible says we should be doing ministry the same way he did. Hey, knowledge puffs up: you ever met someone who knows the Bible back and forth, and proud about it, and corrects you when you're wrong, but has a heart about as cold as a Frappucino? You ever met the opposite, someone with a heart so full of love that it didn't matter what they knew, you could tell who they new and they were just like their Father?

As for a believer, just love on people. Don't pound the Bible over their head...what do they care about the do's and don'ts of the Bible...hey, the Bible said if we just loved each other, not including every one else, they would know we belong to him. And people would be drawn to that love, like moths to a flame. The do's and don'ts will come later, but only after they know him, and they come to know him by us being like him and showing them what he's like (and as is, I'm glad he's not like us, but I wish we were more like Him!)

As for a non-believer, I challenge you to challenge him to reveal himself to you. It's his desire. Without holding a knife to his throat, ask him to. Hey, he said he desires that no one should perish, that includes you, so ask him to show himself if he indeed does exist. And if he indeed is love, ask him to show his love to you. If he indeed wants you to have life and life abundantly, ask him to show it. And don't be surprised if some of that comes through believers because, although he doesn't need his people to reveal himslef to you, he likes us to partner with him in those things. And Christians, when he tells you to reach out, do it!

(BTW, my favorite part of the Bible is the red stuff, the words that are credited to coming from Jesus' lips...word of God, become flesh, spoke the word of God ans it became part of the written word of God!)

Kurgan
06-30-2000, 09:24 PM
Here we go again....

I'm not saying we should fight and kill one another over ideas...

But shouldn't we try to figure out what's real, what's true, and what's not? Isn't that what the human experience is about?

Let's live the best way we can.
In peace, if possible.

Kurgan