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Zoom Rabbit
04-18-2000, 10:47 PM
"...It should be known that the way of the Jedi is a hard life. In finding the path he must forsake other courses; in so choosing, he abandons the coarser pleasures of the material self and pursues only the fulfillment of his own conscience.

"In the conscience is the voice of the Jedi's teacher. In the quiet stillness of the mind does he find the will of the Force, in the conscience making its presence known. The Jedi who follows this voice will be led from riches into poverty, from peace into conflict; where he seeks the truth, others will refuse to look; he will find misery and suffering aplenty on his path, and it is through its lessons that he will ultimately discern the will of the Force.

"To find the Force is enough for most. For the Jedi, the truth of its finding is but the beginning. As the warrior of virtue, the Jedi must seek to serve the Force, and such means to abase his own self so that it is only the will of the Force which is served. When the Jedi on his path has been successful in transcending his self, the suffering becomes irrelevent...and thus is the only true bliss realized. Illusion is revealed, and the Jedi has become the the Force's living representative in the material world.

"The path of the Jedi must therefore never be sought by those who seek to fulfill their selves. The process of seeing their selves abased would horrify such. Only the humble servant of the Force may seek the Jedi way.

"And that is why the way of the Jedi is the hardest of all."

--Jedi High Master Zoom Rabbit http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif


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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

[This message has been edited by Zoom Rabbit (edited April 18, 2000).]

Zoom Rabbit
04-21-2000, 07:09 AM
Ahem. Allow me to define myself a little better.

My intention here is to discuss the 'way of the warrior,' a curious phenomenon in several cultures where--paradoxically--many of the highest moral standard choose a life of combat and warfare.

The Knights Templar, or 'poor knights of Christ,' are a good example of what I'm talking about. The Shaolin monks and, to a lesser degree, the Samurai were eastern counterparts. In the middle east, the Muslim concept of Jihad and the warrior way of the Sikh further reflect this general trend. By choosing to address the ways of a fictional warrior tradition such as the Jedi, I have effectively cast the question into a new light, where it can be discussed without specific religious doctrines being applied.

So, the preceding post was an opening dissertation on the importance of self-deprivation to the holy warrior, and why. Why were the knights of Christ poor (at first, anyway http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif)? Why does the Shaolin monk choose the meager existance of the monastery when he could certainly provide for himself better? The same reason why our Jedi walks his hard path--to subjugate his own will to that of the divine. This level of devotion and self-abasement is not generally pursued by modern folk, being the self-serving and illusioned creatures we are...but for the righteous man (or woman) exercizing divine justice with a sharp laser sword, it is imperative that he not confuse his own desires in the equation. If he should choose to kill for his own ends, then the price becomes the loss of his innocence, and he is no longer righteous!

Any other insights on 'The Way of the Jedi...?' Spirited debate welcome, of course. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Ki-Adi-Mundi
04-21-2000, 09:44 AM
The Shaolin are taught a peacful martial art their first couple years of training, It's called Tai Chi.
They are taught how to talk and reason long before they are taught to fight.
The Shaolin were all Taoist and it is a prerequisite to learn Kung Fu.
Jedi remind me alot of the Shaolin monks. They stay meek so they don't lose their discipline and honor. They believe that there is an all powerful force in all living things. the Shaolin called this force Chi, it is how Bruce Lee could do that amazing 1 inch punch.
What I wouldn't give to be born again and trained as a Shaolin, even if I knew the Emporer would hunt us down and kill us.
Kinda like the Empire hunting down the Jedi, They did it for the same reasons too. Fear of losing power. The monks were developing too much respect from the people so the Emporer struck them down. It took 30 soldiers to one monk. Sounds like Jedi to me, and the monk's fists were about as deadly as lightsabers.
I'll stop now before I get carried away. I love Kung Fu and Shaolin monks and Jedi.

A jedi feels the force running through him constantly, just like the shaolin. I think Lucas created the Jedi after the monks. He did go to Japan, and thats a good place to start, even though the Shaolin are from China.

Alright, I'm done now... really i am.

Hannibal
04-21-2000, 05:36 PM
Thats great Ki-Adi. Thanks for writing that.

Obi-wan Shinobi
04-21-2000, 06:07 PM
<<<<the Shaolin called this force Chi, it is how Bruce Lee could do that amazing 1 inch punch>>>>>>>

Ummm sorry buddy, but I think you have been misinformed. I'm a Jeet Kune Do instructor and I can have you doing a fairly good one-inch punch in a few hours. There are no Chi powers involved, it is just speed and expolsiveness. We do have some Chi drills such as Chi Sao. or "Sticky Hands". I myself have always thought that Lucas patterned the Force after Chi or KI (japanese version). I love to talk about things like this so if any of you would, please post your thoughts on anything martial arts realated. Thanks again.

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"I don't know, fly casual"

[This message has been edited by Obi-wan Shinobi (edited April 21, 2000).]

Zoom Rabbit
04-22-2000, 07:47 AM
Chi=ki=the Force. In Christianity, we don't really have a specific term for this particular manifestation of the Holy Spirit, but simply calling it 'the Force' is perfectly reasonable as far as I'm concerned.

A little background; I have no martial arts training. I discovered the 'chi' associated phenomenon quite by accident, as the result of meditation and amateur sword practice. I describe it thus--as I breathe in, air enters my lungs, and as I breathe out, 'the Force' moves from my lungs throughout my body. To me it feels like a flowing tingle of energy, which in the silence of the attentive mind is like both fire and water. Very difficult to describe, but it sounds an awful lot like what the eastern masters are talking about with 'chi.'

In our western society, we don't often discuss these things. This may be brand new stuff to most of us. I should point out that this is a naturally-occuring phenomenon, meditation associated...simply another aspect of our minds and how they relate to the greater universe that science hasn't really addressed yet. This mystic 'St. Elmo's Fire' is so common a thing in the world's religions that it is almost as frequent a feature as the halo.

The Force is everywhere. The 'Force' phenomenon is just a change in the observer's perception which recognizes the underlying energy behind all matter. When one is ready and willing, has meditated enough and lived right (the hard part), this perception of the Force takes place naturally. The first step is being aware of its existance, but there is a point where one is continuously aware of the Force as a living, dynamic energy. One recognizes the spark within, and connects with it to the greater blinding universe.

But the Jedi does not stop there. Being aware of the Force and living in harmony with it are quite different from using that power in a martial context. The very first question that arises is, "Wait! This energy is holy! How can it be used to harm or even kill...?" It can even be as simple as holding a ball of energy in one's hand, being ready to throw it at an enemy, then suddenly realizing that the energy is love itself. The moral implications of using the Force to help him fight (notice I didn't say as a weapon) are always foremost on the Jedi's mind; this moral concern is the primary difference between the Jedi and his counterpart, the Sith, BTW.

So, once the moral implications of going into combat with the Force as your ally have been resolved, just how does our Jedi use this to help him? Does the Force take over for him, moving him as if he were a puppet? No...while the Force does provide some guidance in physical action, it is primarily in the Jedi's mind where the Force is doing its work. It is keeping his focus on the task, resupplying his resolve and fortitude from within, and giving him the dumb confidence to simply accomplish the task. The Force is not flashing about his lightsaber blade, sending shards of energy here and there; it is focused keenly on the mind of the one perceiving it. When the Jedi's mind is truly one with the Force, neither is controlling the other...he is simply one with all, and now his opponent is facing all instead of one warrior! The Force...is a powerful ally indeed, but don't expect it to smash your enemy's sword for you.

I'm also waiting to see the real Jedi who can levitate himself or other things...and I think I'll be waiting a while. Any holy man who tries to tell you that he can fly is probably stoned on hashish! So, I'm afraid that our poor Jedi will never be able to move things with a gesture like in the movies. Unless the Maharishi is ready to fly over here and prove me wrong, that is...

http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif!

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Ki-Adi-Mundi
04-22-2000, 10:46 PM
OHhh... jeet kune do, awesome. I never really knew if that's was the secret to the one inch punch. But after reading about some master Shaolin and the Chi, I figured that's what it was. Learn something new everyday, i guess. I always wanted to learn some good Kung Fu styles, but the only thing around here is Tai Chi, and that's more like meditation. I just practice a little Wu Shu. Good for the Chi though. They have Karate and stuff around here, but that's not near as much of an accomplishment. Anyways, I'd love to talk about this all day long

Obi-wan Shinobi
04-23-2000, 05:46 AM
I guess I could start by telling you a little about JKD. Jeet Kune Do translated means "way of the intercepting fist". It has a foundation in Wing-Chun Gung Fu. It borrows from many sources. One thing some people are suprised to learn is that Bruce Lee developed the footwork from watching fencing. Where as many styles such as Tae Kwon do, or Shotokan stress power stances, JKD teaches to remain loose and fluid. It is hard to get a beginner to loosen up at first, because most students are so rigid.

Your Wu Shu has me interested. Did you go to a school or attend a seminar? I have seen some Wu Shu demonstrations, but know very little about. I have been meaning to read up on it (I am a huge Jet Li fan). I studied Shotokan for a while, I have a good friend who has a school. I really liked the philosophy, and have read several books on Gychin Funikoshi(a Shotokan master). I been interested in Hwarang do for quite a while as well, they have a honor code that is taught to students I am told. I read many books on martial arts if you couldn’t tell.




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"I don't know, fly casual"

Zoom Rabbit
04-23-2000, 07:18 AM
The Eared One can tell, Obi-Wan...he is glad to have some martial arts expertise superior to his own for this discussion.

I am curious about the swordfighting style we saw used in the latest Star Wars movie. I read somewhere that the actors in the original movie studied Kendo in preparation for their parts, but the dynamics shown by the younger Kenobi seem...well, different. Can you shed any insight on different sword techniques, and maybe pinpoint which (if any) our movie jedi are using?

...Or are they just getting jiggy with it?

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Ki-Adi-Mundi
04-23-2000, 08:33 AM
<font color="#ff00ff">The Wu shu style of Tai Chi I know is really relaxed. You don't hold your fingers together like the other styles. You just relax and mover slowly and freely. It's cool looking, and it's good to calm your nerves. but I'd much rather know Jeet Kune Do.

Oh, there are classes here durning the summer taught by one of the teachers at the high school. He's an awesome instructer.

[This message has been edited by Ki-Adi-Mundi (edited April 23, 2000).]

Obi-wan Shinobi
04-23-2000, 10:19 PM
I noticed right away the stance Qui-gon Jinn used in the trailer before the film came out. He hold his sword vertical and off to the right side, elbows up, blade near his face, this is a classical stance called the "Hasso no Kamea".

Obi-Wan stands in a "Chudan no Kamea" that aims the tip of the sword at an opponents throat. He is in a slight variation of this stance on the VHS cover.

Darth Maul on the other hand had no style I could recognize. His weapon being what it is, I imagine Ray Parks had to invent one. By using a lightstaff he would constantly be in danger of having one of the blade ends being parried back into him. If you watch closely, nearly all his strikes are an upward slash, very little downward strikes, because he runs the risk of bringing the other end up and slashing himself. That is why you see Maul execute so many spins and twirls. He has to use his shoulders to guide his weapon.


[This message has been edited by Obi-wan Shinobi (edited April 23, 2000).]

Zoom Rabbit
04-24-2000, 07:32 AM
Well, a lightsaber is just about the most dangerous weapon to its own wielder that I can think of...and a lightstaff would be more so by quite a wide margin! Think about it...there would be no mass in the blade, which would cut instantly, from any direction. I'll stick with my steel swords, thank you...

The Darth Maul vs. Jedi duel in the movie brings up an interesting point that I'd like to make about meditation. When the three characters are separated by the force fields in the Naboo 'deathstar' room ( http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif), Qui-Gon calmly sits down cross-legged on the floor and closes his eyes.

I recall hearing people whispering to one another in the theater, "What's he doing?" One person said, "He's resting." Clearly, the practice of meditation is not widely understood in western society, and I'll do my best to dispell that here and now. Meditation is not mere relaxation, but an earnest and profound kind of prayer.

One sees yoga and zen meditation advertised in the backs of magazines here in the United States. Usually, it is sold as an aid to relaxation, and yoga in particular is widely perceived as a kind of stretching regimen. Sadly, what we are seeing there is misuse of ancient eastern religious practices. The real thing--yoga, zen, and the Jewish practice of kabbalah--is entirely about making personal connections to God. It's about opening up that blank headspace you see when you close your eyes and installing a dial-up program to the Heavenly Wide Web.

*Bing!* "You've got mail!" http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

So. Qui-Gon finds himself in the pitch of battle, suddenly cut off from his enemy for an unknown period. What does he do? He could pace back and forth like his young padawan, wasting energy and clouding his own focus with frustration. Or, he could take the time to meditate.

He would be quietly connecting himself to the greater Force, seeking guidance perhaps, or simply drawing strength for the battle ahead. He might even be preparing for his own death. The state of mind whose goal meditation is in the first place is more than simple prayer (although I do not by that wish to imply either being superior to the other, as all forms of prayer are beyond valuation)--it is a full opening and receiving of the divine. One becomes just a tiny, small part of the greater macrocosm of life...which is itself of the greater mind of God. Great energies are perceived and relayed, sometimes taken.

Essentially, Qui-Gon would be 'charging' his Force batteries.

Far from taking a nap, or relaxing 'while on the job,' Qui-Gon was doing what was the most beneficial thing he could have done. He shut down and connected to the almighty, so he could receive more strength for the fight. Then, when the force field went down, he was up and in the battle at peak efficiency. (Except he got killed.)

Now, what did Darth Maul do? He stared at his enemy, fanning the flames of hatred. In his own way, he was doing the same thing. This is why the dark side of the Force is said to be 'quicker, easier.'

Okay. 'Nuff said on meditation, battle and the Jedi for tonight. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif Mas manana!

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Ki-Adi-Mundi
04-24-2000, 07:52 AM
<font color="#ff00ff">Great post Zoom Rabbit!!! I made a point to point out to the people in the theater with me that Qui-Gon was meditating. I specifically said "Qui-Gon couldn't have picked a better time to Meditate" My other friend nodded to me in agreement while my girlfriend was confused. Ohh well, just thought I'd share that. Lucas added a good touch to the final battle with that. I hope Obi Wan learns to be as relaxed as Qui Gon. I noticed Obi was pacing back and forth too. Yearning to help his master. That could be dangerous!

Zoom Rabbit
04-24-2000, 08:17 AM
Thanks, Ki-Adi. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

I see that you're another member of the 'Ridiculously Too Late' internet posting club... I believe that Wizzywig also keeps similar hours.

I guess we just write better without that darned sun glaring down at us...

Zoom, zoom-zoomin' out! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Kurgan
04-24-2000, 03:44 PM
Hey, interesting, I am just not checking out this thread, but I'm doing my final paper in my Buddhism class on this very subject.

Well, more proprely "Zen Warriors" and it is about the Samurai adoption/adaptation of Rinzai Zen into their warrior system.

Yes, fascinating topic. At first you would think that war and religion don't mix.

I'll have to read this through and get back to you after I finish my paper. ; )

Just today in class we were talking about how Nabunaga in Japan slaughtered 3,000 Buddhist (warrior) priests in order to unify the country (as he saw it).

The Samurai were big into Zen (which was growing at that time), and that's the focus of my paper.

The Templars were eventually killed off too, if I'm not mistaken.

Of course, a wise man once said, those who live by the sword will also die by it.

Many cultures have in the past recognized the need for spiritual power in battle. We've all heard the "God is on our side" thing whenever there was a big war. The politics of it can be debate, but many people genuinely (and some still do) think it matters.

The Jedi being based off of the "warrior cleric" of human history is really no big suprise. You have only to look at the various ancient cultures to see where he got his ideas from.

Kurgan

[This message has been edited by Kurgan (edited April 24, 2000).]

Ki-Adi-Mundi
04-25-2000, 12:14 AM
I'd just like to say two words

HOLY WARS!

Zoom Rabbit
04-26-2000, 09:03 AM
Upward and onward!

The Third Eye:

In TPM, we are privy to a couple of conversations between Qui-Gon and his padawan about 'being mindful' of the Force. This is an aspect of Jedi practice that we encountered in TESB, as well, when Yoda counseled Luke about things and places he would 'see' under the Force's influence. It would seem that our Jedi believe that they can sense the future, and receive other information, directly from the Force.

This is another aspect of the meditative life. Our minds have a kind of imaginative 'video-screen' built in--it is the same medium with which we 'see' dream images or 'see' an imagined scene with our eyes closed. The realized meditator, and by extension our Jedi, has transformed this template into something else altogether by meditative practice: what easterners call 'the third eye.'

Note: the means I'm discussing here are the same by which US government intelligence remote viewers do their work. This is real stuff.

When our Jedi padawan learner has tuned his awareness of the Force to the point where he begins to channel it through his body, a subtle change occurs. The Force energy, which travels up along the spine from the tip of the spinal column to the top of the head, does something spectacular when it reaches this third eye. Our inititate suddenly discovers a new depth to his visualization, as if in his mind was a stage on which he could travel instantly to any place and time...and that imagination would reflect reality to an amazing degree. Our Jedi has just discovered one of the most useful features of his own mind.

Another note, one important enough that I'll boldface it. Our Jedi is in great danger if he seeks only to open that third eye without growing further. By that, I mean that he must not lose himself in the third eye, but continue to move that energy flow all the way up, and out the top of his head. His goal is the halo, on which I'll speak later. If he reaches the third eye and is happy with that, he is a wizard; if he seeks the halo, then he is a mystic.

When our realized Jedi 'tunes in' to his third eye, he focuses it upward, to his halo. When his mind's eye is focused on it, he can see and sense things about the great flow of time and the universe. Possibilities, influences, changing courses of eventualities, it's all there to the degree that he can understand. Our Jedi, being a simple human, after all, is incapable of fully understanding such a thing as the firmament...he must do with what interpretation he can make of the experience later.

Entering into mystic rapture with God...our Jedi's communion with the Force...however you wish to describe this experience, it is one of surrender. Why can't the average person simply close their eyes and see this for themselves? Because they are already using their third eyes...it's the screen on which their imagination is played out. Before one can receive messages, one must shut off the tape deck! Quieting the mind is, in essence, the whole function of meditation, and it's very, very hard to do.

An experiment: close your eyes, and relax for a while. At first you will see nothing...but then little colored dots, maybe a geometric design or two will flash by, some squiggly lines. Eventually, whole images will form, random pictures, faces, words, etc. You will find your attention wandering from the scene back to your train of thought, and you will once again see the normal kinds of thought images we all 'see' concurrent with everyday thought. Meditation teaches the mind not to wander, but to stay with the flood of random information, which comes from the subconscious mind. That window into the subconscious is the Jedi's golden gateway to the Force, and much of his training is about developing it.

However. This use of the Force is a sacred thing, and must never be abused. The Jedi who uses his third eye to peer about into the hearts of men, or other areas not associated with his role as a serviant Jedi, is treading on the dark side. As I said before, both the wizard and the mystic use the third eye, though differently. The wizard (one who cultivates powers of the mind for person gain, without seeking God) can be equated with the Sith for our model, and the mystic (who cultivates powers of the mind for the express purpose of seeking and serving God), would of course be the Jedi.

This is why at the beginning of TPM, we see Qui-Gon counsel Obi-Wan to be mindful of the present. Young Obi-Wan's 'gaze' was wandering, peering into the greater forces at work...and Qui-Gon was reminding him to 'mind his manners,' so to speak. The Jedi should pay attention to what the Force is showing him, but he should not actively try to use the Force to see for himself. This is such a fine point of self control that it is probably the last matter still at hand in Obi-Wan's training.

Whew. That's enough sci-fi quasi-religious retrofitting for tonight! The next time George wants to depict a 'holy warrior' class in one of his movies, he's gonna have to go online and put this crap together...

http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif


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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

[This message has been edited by Zoom Rabbit (edited May 04, 2000).]

BeastMaster
04-26-2000, 05:22 PM
What I've always believed:

A soldier knows how to fight, but a warrior knows when to fight.

BTW, I also liked that bit of TPM; for me, that was Maul's most defining scene in the whole movie, where he's prowling back and forth like a caged animal.

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"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

Zoom Rabbit
04-27-2000, 11:54 PM
A brief word on fighting, and the way of the warrior:

The use of deadly force is a terrible thing, and only those who would avoid its use at all costs should ever be entrusted to use it. The policeman who seeks the gunfight is not the policeman we want patrolling our streets. Causing harm to another is wrong in absolutely every case...except under very limited conditions. In the real world, most of us will never find ourselves in such conditions, where violence is the correct answer.

This is primary to understanding how war and religion come together in these warrior traditions. A society wishes to abolish war, and violence...but recognizes that there will always be situations when they will need to know of such things. So they marry the arts of war--the fruits of their society's sacrifices in the past--to the arts of religion--which seeks to provide a strong moral foundation for the future. Introducing the warriors to the priests, in essence, they hoped to create a soldier who would exercise correct moral judgement.

So, our Jedi would use their skills to injure or kill others only in the event that it were necessary to do so. Such situations do not happen frequently at all; most policemen will tell you that they have rarely, if ever, been forced to draw their guns in the line of duty. The righteous Jedi would seek every means at his disposal to avoid an unnecessary fight: talking, bluffing, even turning and running away...not from cowardice, but knowing that when the cause is absent, the fight is immoral and must not take place. By not destroying the rash attacker, the Jedi is actually protecting him from his own stupidity.

Now...when is the cause not absent, and the Jedi allowed to use force? When are the moral criteria met, and the Jedi is in a situation where he is no longer required to practice peace? *sigh* This is where religion comes in, and there are a number of qualified instructors. Mine, for example, was a Jewish mystic from about 2000 years ago... http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

If this matter helps us understand a little better why we see religion and war associated so closely, then that is the point. We should not be afraid to bring our sword into the temple because it is profane...we should do so to show God that we want His help in guiding its use.

<font size=1>--More far-out stuff later. Ciao!</font> http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

BeastMaster
04-28-2000, 05:03 PM
One of the reasons I like the Jedi is because of their philosophy of weapons. Rather than powerful cannons or explosives, their weapons are basically melee gear.

If you intend to kill someone, it should be in battle and face-to-face. I don't like guns because they kill from a distance, while a lightsaber can only harm an attacker by deflecting his/her/its own attacks back on their source.

This is why powerful Jedi Masters in the Old Republic (pre-TPM) sometimes didn't carry lightsabers; they had learned to trust to the Force and their own abilities.

That said, I'd love to see some Jedi hand-to-hand fighting in Eps. II or III; the Jedi probably have tonnes of non-lethal attacks (Vulcan nerve pinch anyone?).

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"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

Qpan
04-28-2000, 09:09 PM
All jedi have to do is focus on a force barrier/wall and lightly push ,foes out of the way or pin them down. without harming them.

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Qpan Quadrono

"Do or do not there is no try."

Kylilin
04-28-2000, 11:52 PM
A true Jedi master eventualy relies less and less on the force.

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Nice
http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/kylilin.jpg

Kylilin
04-29-2000, 06:49 AM
Ezekiel 25:17

"The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequaties of the selfish, and the tyranny of evil men.
Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepards the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper, and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers, and you will know my name is the Lord, when I lay my vengeance upon thee."

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Nice
http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/kylilin.jpg

Zoom Rabbit
04-29-2000, 08:40 AM
Yow! Jedi in the Bible! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif I like that quote.

I'm curious, Kylilin, what do you mean by the true Jedi master relying less and less on the Force? I might agree with you, depending on what you mean.

In a sense, the Jedi lessens his reliance on some uses of the Force as his powers of wisdom grow...but since that growing wisdom is another aspect of the Force at work, one could say that his use is still in place. The Jedi will rely less and less on the use of the Force in combat; by learning to listen to the Force, he finds that he can sense and avoid the situation before it ever happens.

The point in question is: 'rely.' The Jedi will rely on the Force more and more as he broadens his contact with it. Now, what does change is his 'use' of the Force. At first, the Jedi consciously 'uses' the Force, using his will to make the connection...but eventually, it is the will of the Force which is in action, and the Jedi merely the humble servant to it. When our Jedi master has grown so far, he is not only relying on the Force--without it, he would become just an empty shell of a man.

Which is why our Jedi should never mess up! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

Interesting point about 'Force-pushing' there, Qpan, but we're actually talking about true life holy warriors and comparing the reality to the Jedi in George Lucas' movies. In reality, I'm afraid such uses of chi aren't possible; we're allowed to interact with matter on a great many levels, but we simply can't generate enough energy to affect the physical universe in that way. Just as we can't break the bounds of gravity with our minds--the Earth is simply too massive.

Unless I'm wrong. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif Obi-Wan Shinobi? Have you heard of 'Force-pushing' (like in TPM) in your studies?

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Kylilin
04-29-2000, 07:26 PM
I guess what I meant is that a Jedi master relies on the active use of the force. But passively, through hs body, the force is very active. You summed it up perfectly when you said that a Jedi Master uses the force to avoid conflicts. I totally agree.

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Nice
http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/kylilin.jpg

Zoom Rabbit
04-30-2000, 07:26 AM
I suspected that was what you meant. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif Nice suit, dude! Welcome to the table.

Note: this post will contain references to some information that is considered occult in our society. While I will not discuss mantras or other dangerous mind toys on this forum...this post will wander off in the far-out area. Those who wish to avoid any such learning should not read the following.

Tonight I will be discussing two different energy centers associated with the body's electromagnetic field. They are discussed mainly in yoga and the like, and naturally our Jedi would deal with them in whatever space meditation they use. The first energy center resides at the base of the spine, right at the end of the spinal cord...the second floats over the top of the head.

Kundalini

Kundalini, a Sanskrit word, is the term we use most widely in the west for the first energy center. This is because it is not known about in western thought, but the Indians have been studying it for centuries. I've also found the same idea in kabbalah (called shekinah), so there is some parallel correlation. Essentially, the Kundalini is said to be what is left over from the creative forces that build you in the womb. After it has finished growing the foetus, and formed the spinal cord, it curls up at the end and 'goes to sleep.' Supposedly, this creative energy (which comes from God) is awakened by religious devotion, earnest meditation (the hard way,) or even by accident, and begins making its way up the spinal cord.

The kundalini's journey is not quick. Being holy in nature, it can be blocked by 'waste' energy cluttering up the nervous system. The weight of our sins (karma) is actually manifested by the subconscious as stress (ever get a stress headache, or a tight back?), which resists the kundalini's progress. Thus, the aspirant must 'repay' those sins (or have them forgiven, which actually does work) before the kundalini can rise all the way to the mind.

When the kundalini reaches the third eye, that's when the far-out stuff happens. This is why religious guidance is so important...the aspirant can say, "Wow! Look at all this neat stuff," and become lost in that third eye. Tragically, he would miss out on the real treasure, which is the energy center floating over the top of his head.

The halo

All of us have seen halos floating over people's heads in old paintings, either associated with spiritual purity in the living or (the modern cliche) being dead. What, exactly, is that thing?

In kabbalah, this is called the keter, or the Godhead. The Hindu call it the sahasrara, the thousand-petaled lotus (colorful image, I think.) It is the portal through which the creative energy of God entered our bodies, and the way through which we leave the flesh when we die. It is like a lens from God, focused down upon us. Its precise nature is unknowable (although through rapture, it can be experienced), and it is called 'ein sof,' the ultimate mystery.

Reaching the Godhead is the goal of yoga. It isn't about relaxing from work stress, and it isn't about stetching out your muscles. It's about focusing your kundalini energy up to the Godhead, about meeting God--period. Any instructor who tries to claim otherwise is part of the growing mass of fly-by-night TM hawkers who are either afraid to deal with the obvious Hindu/Christian ideological problems which would result, or simply doesn't care about it in the first place. If you meet one of these people, slay them in righteous anger (I'm joking http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif.)

Our movie Jedi would have their own kind of yoga. They would learn to focus the Force until they had reached the third eye; they would then turn that third eye upward to look at the halo overhead. Through the halo's lens, our Jedi would catch glimpses of the future and past, visions and whatnot. It's not as if they could just close their eyes and say, 'Aha.' It's actually an ability they would have to practice for years before they could finally connect up.

Unless, like Luke, the Force is strong in you... http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Zoom Rabbit
05-04-2000, 06:36 AM
Okay...back to the serious topic. To recap, we've covered a few of the mysterious powers the Jedi use in the movie and compared them to the practices of real life mystic warriors. We've also seen a little of the means by which these practices are accomplished (at least as much of it as I'm willing to discuss here on a public forum.) The only ability demonstrated by the Jedi that I haven't discussed yet is the persuasive mind-trick we all remember Qui-Gon trying to use on Watto.

The 'Jedi Mind Trick'

...does not exist in real life--at least not as it's portrayed in the movie. If you find that you can control someone else's thoughts with the wave of a hand, then you are one powerful human! I've heard rumor that the Soviets had made some discoveries in this direction, but I myself tend to doubt that any developed real-life psychic technique would be as dramatic as that used by Qui-Gon! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

However.

When one enters the path of self understanding, one also gains insight into the workings of others. By making use of this intuition, one can influence them more easily. The enlightened man who understands the human heart also understands how to influence it...and sadly, it is true that many do. By working the 'heart-strings' of their followers, they are able to control them to a frightening degree. This is how cult leaders are able to live in luxury at the expense of their subjects, who live in poverty...how some even manipulate them to the point of mass suicide, or to fight a war.

This is key to understanding how religions can sometimes be used for evil means. In the case of the Samurai: we see that Buddhist influences teach peace and good will, and yet the Samurai traditions were used by the Japanese Empire in WW2 to cause an otherwise good and moral people to inflict great cruelty on civilian populations...not to mention the treatment shown enemy soldiers and prisoners of war. The evil rulers of Japan used the influence the Buddhist warrior tradition gave them over the hearts of their subjects to bring about acts of barbarism that would be otherwise unthinkable to the Japanese.

How does this happen? Doesn't it stand to reason that since religions are about morality and God, they can only be used for good purposes? This is where the dark side of the Force comes in...and I believe that I'll tackle that particular windmill later. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

For now, good night.

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

BeastMaster
05-05-2000, 03:49 PM
Originally posted by Zoom Rabbit:
If you find that you can control someone else's thoughts with the wave of a hand, then you are one powerful human! I've heard rumor that the Soviets had made some discoveries in this direction, but I myself tend to doubt that any developed real-life psychic technique would be as dramatic as that used by Qui-Gon! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif


I agree with you about the actual persuasion aspect, but I do believe in telepathy/empathy.

I actually did a paper about this last year, I'll post it later (I'm using a school computer right now).

In high school I knew a girl who was, if not mildly telepathic, then at least a powerful empath. She and I used to have debates about which of us was actually the telepath, since we could read each-other's minds, but we couldn't get more than vague emotions from others.

No. I'm not making this up; this girl and I can still "psi" thoughts to each other when we have a line-of-sight, and share emotions when we don't.

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"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

[This message has been edited by BeastMaster (edited May 05, 2000).]

Kylilin
05-05-2000, 09:15 PM
Thats freaky and cool Beastmaster, the ability to transmit thought has always been an interest of mine. I myself a beleiver of all kinds of Extra Sensory abilities, I can't count how many times I've seen something in a dream that I have later experienced. It freaks me out every time it happens.

I still wonder why humans do not fully experience these types of abilities, could it be our next stage of evolution that is slowly begin to show itself....very puzzling indeed....

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Kylilin, Jedi Master of being silly


Nice http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/kylilin.jpg

Zoom Rabbit
05-06-2000, 06:37 AM
Good point, O Beastie One. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif While I've never picked up another's thoughts well enough to consider it communication, it clearly exists in some people. I was talking about controlling the thoughts of another, which is quite different.

Telepathy (communicating mind to mind) and especially empathy (reading the feelings of another) are fairly common psychic occurences. Like all psychic phenomena, though, any information we receive is subject to error. Our pychic abilities are rudimentary, so even when we use them as well as we can, the best we can hope for is an eighty percent accuracy rate. I've heard some figures lower, some higher...but it would seem in any case that our telepathic senses are not as well developed as our sight and hearing. I'm curious to see the accuracy curves in the study you mention, Beastmastrer, but I think they'll be somewhere around eighty percent--not a dependable sense, but way, way past mere coincidence.

Now, that bit about controlling another's thoughts with ESP...I sure hope I'm right about that. As always, if I'm wrong about something, I welcome a a chance to obtain better data. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

[This message has been edited by Zoom Rabbit (edited May 06, 2000).]

Zoom Rabbit
05-06-2000, 10:14 AM
Some more thoughts on ESP, and precognitive dreams

(I was meaning to address the 'dark side' question tonight, but since I have the next three days off, I believe I'll indulge in this topic awhile...)

The good Kylilin brings up an interesting point, and it's one that I've heard a lot in today's new age beliefs--namely, that our psychic abilities represent a next level of evolution. As before, this is an idea of his that I agree with depending on what he means by that. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif Evolution, which I believe to be true BTW, is the process by which the traits of a species change over time due to fluctuating environmental pressures. What Kylilin is saying (I think) is that psychic abilities are rudimentary in humans, but are being strengthened with each passing generation as a part of the evolutionary process.

This is just my own theory on the matter, but: it is my belief that psychic communication is an ability that was stronger in our species when we lived in the wild...and that it was the development of language and sophisticated body communication which caused that ability to atrophy. My main reason for believing this is the kind of natural telepathy that cats exhibit; one time I was petting my kitty Pesto, when I thought that it was about time to flea-powder her--as soon as the idea flashed into my mind, she glared at me and ran away. Just an example, but there are numerous such examples of psychic ability in animals.

But...the evolutionary destiny of mankind? Are we destined to develop our minds, and with them our psychic abilities, as the future progresses? I think so, actually--not because telepathy is an ability our species will have to rely upon again (remember: we already have language,) but rather because we are becoming more spiritual beings. By that I don't mean that we'll turn invisible, but that we will become beings for whom enlightenment can be easily attained, and with the flowering of the soul naturally comes the flowering of the mind...which also means enhanced psychic ability. The evolutionary 'next step' for mankind, as I see it, is realization of the self. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif

However, you don't have to become enlightened and 'realize yourself' (whatever the hell that means, Zoom...sheesh) to experience psychic phenomena. Such things happen naturally to almost everyone at least once in their lives, and quite often it takes the form of a precognitive dream. I have had many dreams come true in astonishing detail, way more than enough to convince me that coincidence is an insufficient explanation. Rather than make a case for the validity of precognitive dreams, I will instead explain the phenomenon in new age hoodoo-voodoo terminology.

Going back to the post I did about the third eye...just to recap a bit, I mentioned how the third eye was a means by which the mind could 'pierce the veil' so to speak and see some pretty far out stuff, except that in most people that third eye was already being used by the conscious imagination. I explained how meditators seek to calm that conscious imagination and free the third eye for more important work. Well, the state of mind sought by the meditator is accomplished every night by each and every one of us...when we're asleep. Unfortunately, we're unconscious and can't make use of the situation, but the dream images and sensations we experience are the result of the third eye being 'taken over' by the subconscious mind. When the subconscious uses that third eye to see through the veil of time, then the result is a dream which comes true a few days later and scares the ever-loving crap out of us. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

So much for the mystery of dreams. Harumph.



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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Kylilin
05-07-2000, 01:48 AM
Pesto....I like that name, and I like Pesto Sauce too!!!

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Kylilin, Jedi Master, and overall silly guy

Nice http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/kylilin.jpg

Zoom Rabbit
05-07-2000, 05:15 AM
Unfortunately, she doesn't go well in a sauce. She likes it when you add the heavy cream, but she doesn't stick around for long after you turn on the burner...

Zoom Rabbit
05-08-2000, 08:50 AM
Okay. Here we go with the brain-crunch topic: the 'light' side and 'dark' side of the Force. There isn't anything occult in this passage, but I will be jumping back and forth between religions and worldviews to a degree alarming to some. Although I myself have beliefs that overlap religions, it is my advice to any who would attempt the same kind of philosophical pathclearing that they choose one religion and stick with it until their faith was solid enough that they could look at other belief systems in an objective manner. Simply put: find God, then look at other religions for an honest appraisal. Before that relationship is forged, though, comparing different religions can serve to undermine our faith in the one we've chosen. Bearing this in mind, let us look at the Jedi matter before us.

In the movies, the Jedi serve what they call the Force...and they also talk of the 'dark' side, which is implied to be an aspect of the former, but one which they seek to avoid. Right away, those of us with a Christian upbringing are struck with how dissimilar this is to the theology they are familiar with. In the western religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam), God is one whole omnipotent force...and the Devil is a lower being, one of God's creations that chose to rebel against his maker. However, those familiar with the eastern theologies (Hinduism, Buddhism et al) may recognize a similarity to that worldview...specifically, that God is a being with two halves or manifestations, and it is with the interaction of these two that He creates and sustains the universe. Although I am Christian, it is my theory that the eastern worldview is more correct...and coincidentally enough, it's the worldview shared by our Jedi.*

Here is where I run home to science...and I must point out that it is scientific conclusions as I understand them that I am using here, so I humbly acknowledge beforehand that I might have it wrong. The universe was created in the Big Bang; most who accept both science and faith consider this to be the creative act of God discussed in Genesis and countless other creation myths. This creative act I label the 'light' side of the Force, being the original state of 'am' that spawned all of the rest of existance; it is the positive force behind all reality. Now, just this creative act alone would have created a universe that was infinitely hot and infinitely dense...all light, with no shadows or differentiation of any kind, just pure 'existance.' In order to define the universe, in order to give it a force to work against--a canvas upon which to paint the painting--God needed to introduce the element of 'darkness' or negativity. In order for things to 'be,' there had to be a state of 'not' existing in order to define that existance. This is where the cosmic principle of entropy comes in.

Entropy, as dicussed in physics, is the force responsible for order becoming chaos in a closed system. Essentially, it's the reason why when we leave things absolutely alone, they tend to behave more and more erractically. This is the force against which the creative Big Bang (which did not end so many billions of years ago, FYI, but is still continuing) works, the negative or 'sucking' force against which the positive or 'blowing' force works to create everything we call real.

So we have these two forces working against each other, and the physical universe is the result of their intermingling (forms from the light and shadows as it were). This is the general cosmological principle we see illustrated in the yin-yang symbol. It is my belief that this principle is also illustrated in the idea of trinity (the squiggly line or 'physical existance' inbetween the two halves of the yin-yang being represented by the third part of the trinity), although there aren't many people who follow my logic on this matter. Yet another version of this idea is represented by the quote in my signature, BTW. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

Anyway. We see thus that the 'light' side and 'dark' side of the Force are equal and opposite parts of a whole, working against each other to create everything. Why then do we seek to make connections to one half and not the other? Discarding moral arguments for the moment, I will note that the positive creation force is a state of order, and the negative chaotic force is, well, chaotic. The Jedi, who is seeking to find God after all, is looking for his maker, so he desires in essence to regain the ordered state of that beginning.

Since the universe began in order and is moving toward chaos, our Jedi is seeking to go against the natural flow of things; this is why the 'dark' side of the Force is said to be 'quicker, easier.' When he lets his guard down, the natural tendency is for matters to work in the 'dark' side's favor.

When we look at it in that vein, our Jedi's path seems most curious indeed. Instead of beginning with creation and moving toward entropy like everything else, his soul reverses the trek and returns to its source. Why? Well, we have just stumbled on the whole reason for us to be here in the first place (IMHO http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif), namely that we are God's way of 'knowing' the universe. He created the universe, and wishing to know His own creation, He also created consciousness and sent it forth. Some 'sparks' of that consciousness (our souls) return to the source...and in that way does the mind of God interact with its creation. Shhh. Don't tell anyone I told you. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

So. Anyway. That is one man's determined attack against this particular windmill. The God and Devil, light versus dark question is one people have been arguing about through all history...and there's no reason to think that all of the sudden I have the whole truth of it, here and now. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif This is just food for thought, but as a set of theories it does conform to the 'Force' model we see in George's movies.

And they are just movies, after all.

http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif

*<font size=1>Discounting that 'midichlorian' nonsense they tried to pull in TPM, that is.</font>

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Kylilin
05-08-2000, 08:33 PM
I think the closest explanation of the force can be found in China. The idea of Yin and Yang. In order for an individual to be healthy, physically, mentally, and spritually, their Yin and Yang must be in balance.
I think when we refer to the "Light" side of the force we refer not to the "good" side, but the side which seeks to keep balance. It is the "dark" side of the force that seeks to disrupt the balance. The Jedi must oppose the Dark side in order to keep balance.

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Kylilin, Jedi Master, and overall silly guy

Nice http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/kylilin.jpg

Zoom Rabbit
05-09-2000, 01:17 AM
Intriguing insight, Kylilin. I've heard countless ways of describing this interaction, but balance (or 'order,' if you will) and chaos are two descriptions which seem to pop up a lot.

I'll think on this more. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif Tonight I'm planning on discussing the nature of truth--see you then, space rangers...

Zoom Rabbit
05-09-2000, 01:29 AM
Zoom Rabbit wishes to clarify a point in his discussion of the light and dark sides of the Force. He did not wish to imply that the principle of entropy embodied the 'dark' side...to be precise, entropy is a manifestation of the dark side, as is gravity. The 'dark' side is a principle behind the universe, and these scientific principles are evidence of it acting upon the physical plane.

Whew. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif Science, theology, aspirin...

Zoom Rabbit
05-09-2000, 08:32 AM
The Nature of Truth

"From a certain point of view? What does that mean?"

"Luke, you're going to find that a great many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view..."

What, exactly, was old Obi-Wan talking about in this scene from ROTJ? Luke catches him in a lie about the nature of Darth Vader's relation to himself, and old Ben's only response is some cryptic guru backshuffle. I remember seeing the movie as a teenager and losing faith in the character Obi-Wan's basic goodness. To this day, my interpretation of the scene is essentially the same, with maybe the lesson that even an ascended high Jedi like Obi-Wan is still only human. Ben lied to Luke, and when confronted, he spouted some zen hogwash to obfuscate the poor lad's search for the truth.

Or is it hogwash? The basic premise, the nature of truth, continues to be an item of much thought for me. One of my most profound realizations is on this very matter, and I will try my very best to explain why my understanding of truth is as it is. To the reader, Zoomer appears a mercurial thinker at best--acknowledging God and choosing a religion for himself but jumping randomly from one belief system to the next in his absurd attempt to cobble those beliefs into his own rickety model of truth. This approach seems especially ridiculous to others when they consider truth...the final and factual understanding of God and reality...to be an absolute; there is only one truth, and this rabbit seems to think that there are an infinite number of truths...

Well, actually, I think that there is such a thing as the final, universal truth. If you could fit this truth in your head, you would be able to understand everything, and there would no longer be any mystery. Unfortunately, such a truth could only fit in the mind of God Himself. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

Okay, back up a bit. A human being is essentially a biological machine, and the brain is its CPU. Since that CPU is physical in nature, there is a limited amount of data that it can store...and only programs of certain complexity which it can run. Now, if you wanted to program that machine so that it understood absolutely everything, you wouldn't be able to do it. You would be forced to take a different approach; program the machine to understand those things with which it comes into contact. This is essentially how our minds operate; we have a conceptual model that we carry around with us of what reality is, and are constantly comparing it against what we observe in the physical world around us. When ideas don't fit, we discard them, or change them so they do.

To take my biological machine analogy a bit further, we can think of a religion as Windows 95. Instead of forcing the user to start from scratch, we can install software that comes already preprogrammed with a ready made conceptual model of reality, and then go right online. As time goes on, the software we installed will be tweaked here and there as the machine adjusts it to conform with some odd detail in the environment.

Fine. It's still Windows 95, and even though each machine has tailored itself slightly differently, we can see that it is still the same operating system, same language, etc. However...each brain is now carrying a different concept of truth because each has had different experiences.

And then we have Macintosh...an operating system from the other side of the world, with a completely different programming language. Like another religion, it is intended to fulfill the same purpose as our Windows 95, but it is written differently. As far as two machines, one running Macintosh and one running Windows 95, are concerned, both are distinctly different from the other; programs from one won't run on the other, etc.

Yet both are about running computers. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif And both can get you on the Internet...

Another analogy: maps. Say you had a population density map of the US, a demographic map, and maybe one showing just highways...and you were to compare them without the coastline drawn in to tell you that you were looking at the same country. You might conclude that all three maps were of different countries.

So. Essentially, old Ben could have been trying to teach Luke about the nature of truth--how truth is 'in the eye of the beholder.' Whether Ben lied intentionally or not, this understanding would be important enough that he would try to teach it to Luke.
Also, once he brought up the nature of truth, he had effectively changed the subject. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

I only hope that my attempts to illustrate the perception-based nature of truth as it relates to the perceiver have been successful. If my explanation of the modus operandi I use was insufficient, then I guess the reader will just have to conclude that I'm crazy.

http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif <font size=1>But we never really ruled that one out, did we?</font>

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Kylilin
05-09-2000, 09:42 AM
what if my CPU runs on Linux?


and I agree with you, there are infinite truths to the same question. which leads me to ask the age old question:

<font color=blue>If a tree falls down and there is no one around to hear it, does it make a sound?</font>

who is to say what the truth would be? what is the truth? Yes it fell, did it make a sound? who knows. one truth may be yes it did, because falling trees make a sound. but another truth could be that no one heard it,how do you know? In that way I think the "truth" can be subjective.

....and remember, if you beleive it, its not a lie

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Kylilin, Jedi Master, and overall silly guy

Nice http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/kylilin.jpg

[This message has been edited by Kylilin (edited May 09, 2000).]

Zoom Rabbit
05-09-2000, 08:03 PM
You know, I'd always wondered what that particular philosophical line of reasoning was about. Now I get it--it's another example of the nature of truth! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif

Thanks, Kylilin!

Zoom Rabbit
05-09-2000, 08:05 PM
Oh--and I'm afraid that Linux users are the Satanists in my model...

Kylilin
05-10-2000, 01:01 AM
dammit Zoom, I told you not to tell anyone about the Satan worshiping, now everyone knows. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/mad.gif

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Kylilin, Jedi Master, and overall silly guy

Nice http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/talkril.gif

[This message has been edited by Kylilin (edited May 09, 2000).]

Zoom Rabbit
05-10-2000, 08:38 AM
Well, anyone who wears a white suit is either in health care, food service, or worshipping the devil.

http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

You know...I never realized that the guy was Krellen (sp?) from DBZ! Cool. Ever notice how much Tantric symbology is worked into that cartoon?

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Kylilin
05-10-2000, 05:33 PM
I find that DBZ has a lot of Taoist ideologies. The idea of a power level, or a Ki level, is a Taoist idea. Take one of Goku's moves for example, the Spirit Bomb, or Genki Dama as it is called in Japanese. What he does in that move is he absorbs a little bit of the fighting spirit from every living being on the planet, and combines it into a weapon. It is this cooperation between man and nature that I find very Taoist.
The one thing I find in DBZ is that they use their anger to their advantage, they do not condemn it like the Jedi. Especially the Saiya-Jins, they use their anger to go "Super Saiya-Jin" and then they really kick arse.

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Kylilin, Jedi Master, and overall silly guy

Nice http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/talkril.gif

Zoom Rabbit
05-10-2000, 08:08 PM
Well, such an ideology would naturally make for more exciting cartoons. In real life, anger can lead one into making mistakes, as Musashi taught so well. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

Announcement: Zoom Rabbit has discovered two clerical errors in his preceding posts, and will set the record straight here and now.

First of all, I learned that there is a lower kind of yoga called hatha yoga whose goal is improved bodily health rather than spiritual transcension. There are many varieties of yoga practiced throughout the world, dealing with different approaches and different levels of awareness. Hatha yoga is intended to continue into raja yoga when mastered, but if the student has no desire to learn it, it is his choice.

Secondly, and most importantly, in my post where I was discussing the 'light' and 'dark' sides of the Force, I briefly fell into the same confusion that plagues many of us: mixing up the God-and-devil idea with the yin-yang idea. Kylilin pointed it out in his next post, but I missed it http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif. When we look at a yin-yang, it is important to remember that the white area does not represent God, and the black area does not represent the devil; both areas inclusively represent God. When I talked about the Jedi 'returning' to God, I led the reader to believe that he had to align completely with one side...what I meant to say was that since the natural flow is from the light to the dark, the Jedi must resist that flow in order to remain in balance. If I confused anyone, I apologize.

Remaining in balance with the two aspects, of course, is key to becoming one with it.

http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

deadwood
05-13-2000, 05:12 AM
I found an interesting article that I think you guys would be interested in:
http://www.healthmall.com/2000/05/05/medic/6334-0002-pat_nytimes.html

its about chi, and some scientist who believes he can prove it scientifically. Anyway just read it. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif

Zoom Rabbit
05-13-2000, 08:06 AM
A chi generator that captures the universal life force from 'the atmosphere,' stores it on tape...and then 'transmits' it to a person who feels 'relaxed calmness.' And the scientist who invented it can't provide any correlating evidence.

Okay. I'll be the first to say it:

<font size=10><font color=yellow>Hogwash!</font></font> http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif

That's the problem with the new age spiritual awakening going on in our society; it creates an environment of naivete where the con man can flourish. (Unless this guy is on the level--anything is possible...though highly improbable.) Without the guidance of a church, we have freedom...but without that guidance, it is also much easier to get lost.

Do you really wish to get that state of 'relaxed calmness?' It's easy...and you don't need a machine to help you. I will here disclose a simple meditation technique that I discovered by myself (and later found described in yoga as anahata shabda.) It isn't a mantra, or anything that is considered occult...in fact, it's the exact same thing that biofeedback does, only you use the equipment God already gave you.

It's this simple: put ear plugs in your ears. What do you hear? No, not 'nothing'...there should be a faint, high-pitched tone in the background. That is the anahata shabda, and it is a sound that is actually being generated by your inner ear. When yogis are meditating, this sound becomes louder...in fact, it's the phenomenon sometimes refered to as 'the music of the spheres' in today's new age culture.

This is the part I discovered: you can, with practice, affect the pitch and volume of this tone...and doing so will produce the same state of mind as other forms of meditation. At first you will only be able to hear anahata shabda when it's absolutely silent...but eventually it can be heard quite easily (although I should emphasize that this is not an unpleasant thing like tinnitus, which is anahata shabda broken and gone wild.) What you do with this tone, once you've cultivated your perception of it, is to raise the pitch. Your goal is what I call 'clear tone,' that first octave beyond our range of hearing; at that point you feel the tone as much as hear it. The state of mind associated with 'clear tone' is the alpha brainwave state...or 'relaxed calmness' if you will.

And you didn't need a stupid machine to do it. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

<font size=1>This meditation I have developed and is my gift of love to all. If you take up meditation and do not use it to get in touch with God, it is your choice. But you're really missing out.</font>

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

[This message has been edited by Zoom Rabbit (edited May 13, 2000).]

Zoom Rabbit
05-13-2000, 09:24 AM
*Sigh* Another correction. When comparing the symbolism of different cultures against the mystic truths they are supposed to represent, errors can occur. Since this is important philosophy, I must correct such errors when I make them.

Comparing yin-yang to trinity: The three aspects of God that we Christians call trinity is a theme that is repeated in many cultures. In the concept of yin-yang, the two halves represent the balanced cosmic forces I discussed, while the entire circle is taken to represent God in the absolute aspect...and there we have the same three we see elsewhere.

I might do a post later about trinity in other cultures. It's getting further and further off the Jedi topic, though...

http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

Zoom Rabbit
05-15-2000, 08:56 AM
Scratch that. I'll just do a whole new topic on that one...

This thread, though has clearly wandered away from the martial arts aspects of the way of the Jedi that most of us are really interested in. Since I've pretty well covered the mystical aspects of Jedism (new word?), let's talk about the violent, exciting part! http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

I'm curious about something. My experience with the Star Wars story is limited to the movies, and the only weapon I've seen the Jedi use there is the lightsaber. Are there other weapons in the Jedi arsenal, maybe discussed in the books, or games?

For example, the Samurai use of zen meditation made them excellent swordsmen...but it also made them deadly archers. You can't miss a target if you 'are one' with it. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

Maybe the jedi would have an aimed weapon of some kind as well...



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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Kylilin
05-15-2000, 02:28 PM
I have no knowledge of any projectile weapons wielded by the Jedi. But Jedi Master Luke Skywalker is still known to use a blaster from time to time, and with his shots being guided by the force, he has the deadliest and most accurate shot in the universe.

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Kylilin, Jedi Master, and overall silly guy

Nice http://www.geocities.com/kylilin/talkril.gif

BeastMaster
05-18-2000, 10:55 PM
Other than the lightsaber, the only weapons I can se a Jedi using are either particular to that Jedi's culture (in Tales of the Jedi, there's an awesome scene of A Jedi [Odan-Urr, IIRC] gutting someone with a pair of small curved knives) or nonlethal.

In the SW Universe, nonlethal weapons include (but are not limited to) stun-blasters, stun grenades, glop grenades, tangle-guns, "deck-sweepers" (wide-bore stun blasters), stun staves, and force pikes.

I'd still like to see a Witch of Dathomir using a Xena-esque Chakram. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/biggrin.gif

This is, of course, all in addition to the classic hand-to-hand battling and Force powers (In 'Splinter of the Mind's Eye,' a Kinetite is a sort of focussed telekinetic attack right out of DragonBall Z http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif )

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"The Beasts know much that we do not." -Ancient Jedi proverb

Zoom Rabbit
05-19-2000, 06:17 AM
Intriguing. I'm going to have to pass judgement on DBZ-type Force energy attacks in real life as not happening. Yes, you can attack psychically, but it isn't exactly a lightning-bolt type phenomenon. Otherwise, I don't think the Chinese takeover of Tibet would have been so one-sided... http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

I can say from personal experience, though, that the use of the Force when aiming a projectile weapon can be helpful. I'm a pretty good shot myself, and it has nothing to do with a steady hand. Focusing my mind on my breathing is a thing I do when I meditate, and coincidentally enough, breath control is the key to straight shooting.

My technique is fairly straight forward. Breathe in and hold...sight down the barrel to the target and 'become one' with it. Breathe out and hold...reach out with the gun and bang! When you breathe out, your body is at its steadiest--it's also at this time when chi is in the process of flowing into the body, so the reaching out part is easiest as well.

So I suppose that a Jedi would naturally be an excellent shot...unless one had stubby little Yoda-fingers that couldn't wrap around the handle. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/smile.gif



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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."

Zoom Rabbit
05-22-2000, 08:51 AM
Another Jedi weapon: the sling. (I'm talking about the biblical David-and-Goliath weapon, not the modern sling-shot.)

These are fairly easy to make, being just a leather pouch with two long strings off either end. Tie a loop in one end and a knot in the other. To fire it, you take a lead shot (say, a large fishing weight), place it in the pouch and swing it overhead until it gains momentum. Then you let go of the knotted end, and the shot zings off in the general direction you're pointing when you let go.

...In theory. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/frown.gif In real life practice, it's the least accurate weapon I've ever used; the shot is likely to go just about anywhere there's a window. Only a Jedi could use the Force well enough to actually hit the target with one. http://www.jediknight.net/mboard/wink.gif

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"The entire universe is simply the fractal chaos boundary between intersecting domains of high and low energy."