PDA

View Full Version : Details About Some Patch Changes


ChangKhan[RAVEN]
05-07-2002, 02:59 PM
Okay, the patch info doesn't go into the details about what was changed in saber combat for the patch. For those of you that are insterested, here's the deal:

In general, some work was put into making sabers more likely to hit - both the other players and their lightsaber. This was not so much a problem with strong attacks because they are so long and slow, but often medium and fast attacks would miss or pass through.

Idle saber damage (i.e.: damage not done while in an attack animation) was toned down to reduce the number of seemingly "random" kills.

Parries, deflections, reflections, broken parries and knockaways were put into MP (these were in SP but were not in MP).

Saber lock frequency was slightly increased so that it could happen in the heat of combat.

Hand dismemberment was put in to MP, also, the hand-dismemberment "win" result of saberlocks that is in SP was put in MP. It only happens if the loser of the saber lock was low on health anyway.

Light Stance:
The foward lunge attack (swing from the bottom up) was toned down in damage just a little bit because it was quite often a 1-shot kill and could be exploited fairly easily. It still does a lot of damage, just not enough to kill in one hit.

Medium Stance:
Medium was not meant to be the whirling dervish style, so it was made so that, if you do the same exact move over and over again, you cannot chain as many attacks as if you mix it up a little. "Spinning top" fighters should use fast style. This is the *only* change to medium style.

Strong Stance:
Strong attacks were slowed down some to match SP, as was player movement while doing a strong attack. Strong attacks also do more of their damage at the middle of the swing and less at the start and end. This was necessary to give the strong attacks a more realistic feel (because the anims are so long that sometimes you would get a somewhat accidental looking kill). But strong attacks were also given the ability to chain, like in SP. If you do an attack and then switch up the direction of the attack by 45 degrees, you will be able to chain into another attack. Also, the strong overhead jump attack was made to not do as much damage once the saber is in the ground and you can no longer turn during this attack (like the fast style's lunge attack). This was the single most exploited move in MP and required this much heavy tweaking.

The back-flip off a wall/opponent was changed into a double-tap. This was mostly done because it was frustrating to try to get over a small lip and end up back-flipping off of it. In combat, you can still kick someone and knock them down with this move, but you have to do a double-tap. Also, it was noticed that the strong style was completely vulnerable to this move because of the long wind-up time of it's attacks. A somewhat skilled jump-kicker could always knock down a strong style user (often you could not see the kick coming). So the jump-kick was made to not *knock down* a strong user who is in the middle of a swing. It still does damage and you still flip off them.

Regardless of what you feel is different or other posters say, these are really the *only* changes to saber combat...

We tested the new saber tweaks pretty heavily and only stopped when we felt that the three styles were well balanced with each other.

Someone else mentioned that they already found the g_jediVmerc cvar (I don't know how!)... to quell and speculation about it, this is a server cvar that makes it so that clients joining a game must choose to be a jedi (who uses the saber and force powers) or a non-jedi (a mercenary, who uses guns and pickups). It is *not* a supported feature and makes no claims at being bug-free or a balanced game feature. Use it at your own risk. Note that you have to set it on the command line (or, I think, use the console's "set" command) to get it to show up on your console.

The server browser was updated to include 5 possible new icons next to the server names. One is a lock and indicates a server that requires a password. The second icon will either be a force icon with a half-faded circle with a slash symbol (meaning some force powers are disabled, but not all) or a force icon with a large red "X" over it (meaning all force powers are disabled). The last slot will show a saber for saber-only games or a saber and a gun for Jedi vs. Merc mode.

That's all I can think of now.

TheDarkSide
05-07-2002, 03:08 PM
As always, Changkhan, thanks for the information!

Your post clears up some confusion as to what was changed in the saber system....I love the interaction you guys have with the community!

Thanks for all your hard work.

TDS

P.S. Don't let the whiners get to you. Look at all the polls on this board about whether or not the patch was a good thing, and you'll see by far it's well-liked.

JSM
05-07-2002, 03:10 PM
I played about three hours worth of duel mode with the patch last night. I didn't have any one to connect with, so i called up a few bots on the new Yavin IV duel level. I must say i was impressed with the new combat, the bots also seemed a little more intelligent and tactical. I had been completely avoiding MP because the saber duels were not nearly as good or fun as SP. But the patch has fixed everything i didn't like.

Zek
05-07-2002, 03:13 PM
Will full support for Jedi vs Mercenary mode be supported eventually? And is this a modifier for current gametypes or a gametype all its own?

Also, you mentioned an icon for partial force power disabling... Will this be supported without some serious console knowledge(and will it be possible to see what is and isn't disabled before joining)?

Nill the Mean
05-07-2002, 03:19 PM
Hand dismemberment in normal MP? Sweet...
Especially HUGE thanks for fixing us up with those symbols in the multiplayer menu. No more joining servers with a password by accident! Excellent.
I presume the Jedi Vs. Merc mode wil be in a future patch... I sure hope so. I also really hope that the fists make it into a future patch... cause the stun baton feels a bit silly.
Sounds like you guys put a lot of work into balancing the three stances, and from what I have played so far all stances have indeed become more usefull.
Thanks for all the info man... very usefull.
Thank you very much Raven, you are the shizit.

P.S. I suddenly had the biggest fear this morning... I hope we don't get put aside for SoF2 updates in the future, but I'm (almost) sure that won't be the case.

power_ed
05-07-2002, 03:19 PM
Thx Changkhan for clearing up some issues..

:)

anyways: what happend to the Morgan Ghost skin?
did you take it out, and if so, why?

ps: i really luv this patch, nice work :-)


::/Ed

The Truthful Liar
05-07-2002, 03:20 PM
I LOVE YOU RAVEN!!

D.L.
05-07-2002, 03:20 PM
From what I've heard of the patch it sounds great (that lip back flip was very annoying in SP esp in the heat of a battle so good job on that)

Just a quick question, what levels are included!? I know the titles but what is actually in them?

I've haven't gotten home to install the pattch yet and I probably won't be able to do it tonight as I have a load of projects to complete

Fyunch Click
05-07-2002, 03:24 PM
I for one appreciate the quick turn-around.

You guys are no Sierra. Thank God! ( no more visions of Tribes 2 flying through my head!)

Great work on the game. I look forward to your future stuff.

LoS- Fyunch Click
Captain, CTF FF, Sabers only TDM.

ChangKhan[RAVEN]
05-07-2002, 03:24 PM
Originally posted by Zek
Will full support for Jedi vs Mercenary mode be supported eventually? And is this a modifier for current gametypes or a gametype all its own?

Also, you mentioned an icon for partial force power disabling... Will this be supported without some serious console knowledge(and will it be possible to see what is and isn't disabled before joining)?

Jedi v. Merc is not supported, I don't know of any plans to make it official.

Partial force power disabling is also not supported (though an (unsupported) dedicated server admin can easily toggle certain force powers on and off with the "forcetoggle" console command). If you do a serverinfo and want to do the bitmath, you can look at the g_forcePowerDisable value and try to figure out which powers are disabled. Otherwise, you just have to join the server and see for yourself.

TheDarkSide
05-07-2002, 03:30 PM
more information on force toggle please? :) :) :)

V-tecc
05-07-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]
The back-flip off a wall/opponent was changed into a double-tap. This was mostly done because it was frustrating to try to get over a small lip and end up back-flipping off of it.

Why not make it an option in the setup menu?
So that people can choose what suites them best.

V-tecc

PS: Thank you for a great game!

WD_ToRMeNt
05-07-2002, 03:45 PM
For Chang...

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51276

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51158

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51273

Yu-Law
05-07-2002, 03:47 PM
I agree, this would be much better as an option.

-=[M@ximus]=-
05-07-2002, 03:50 PM
when will we get the server ded win32 patch?
we have servers that are stuck now till it is released

also why cut all the swings in Medium, in all books, and films the Jedi Twist and turn, granted that maybe there was too much

but at least give us one or 2 back, cause medium too me, is just like heavy stance now, all u do is swing step swing step

not swing spin, move away and attack again

bah is all i can say too what u done too the Meduim
and i still aint impressed with the red DFA it still spammed, yes u cant move, but it still happens all too oftern in the few servers i have been in!

Nill the Mean
05-07-2002, 04:11 PM
Errrg... my brain is really starting to hurt in an attempt to understand this criticism.
Let me put it this way:
I have played JK2 almost every day for at least an hour a day since the game it was released here in Holland (26th I think).
At least 70% of people I played against used red all the time. They would reach the top of the list by DFA 60% of the time.
When I fought most of these people, I owned them because they never changed their tactics in mid combat. Only a few people who changed styles and used more medium than heavy gave me trouble. How can I beat the person on the top of the list so easy? I have more skill, simple. Now that DFA and red have been toned down, lots of people start complaining. Not suprising when so many people relied on it religiously. About time they got used to trying something else.
People who go in swinging are easy to beat because they are open for attack ALL THE TIME. Just block until the person kills himself on your saber or adjusts his tactic.
You can't say that medium is nerfed... it is more refined as far as I can tell. It still has the spins but you have to alternate your direction more to get it. If you want constant spinning, use light. That is what it is for (sort of). It certainly isn't step in and swing because you can attack quickly multiple times. Up to four-five hits! At a speed only a bit slower than light! I explained this on the forum at least four times so far so I'm not going to do it again, figure it out for yourself.
You can still kill someone and only have taken thee swipes at them. It just takes more practice now.
And what is all this move away stuff? Just block if he isn't using heavy...

ChangKhan[RAVEN]
05-07-2002, 04:15 PM
Originally posted by -=[M@ximus]=-
when will we get the server ded win32 patch?
we have servers that are stuck now till it is released

also why cut all the swings in Medium, in all books, and films the Jedi Twist and turn, granted that maybe there was too much


I'll ask James about the dedicated 1.03 build.

You can still do spins in medium, but if you try to do the same spin over and over again you're only going to get one or two. If you mix it up, you can get more.

Genocide52
05-07-2002, 04:34 PM
THANKS FOR THE HARD WORK RAVEN!! YOU MADE A GREAT GAME! I just downloaded the patch and I'm off to try it out. I'm sure it made the game better and you had a reason to do everything (wish I could make a statement about multiplayer, but I can't play multiplayer because of my school's damn firewall :( ). Thanks again Raven!

-=[M@ximus]=-
05-07-2002, 04:43 PM
cheers m8 i would be greatfull as if where going to switch , we realy need it badly
cause we cant get them up and running
i dont alter em, i am the person who controls what goes on em, and what gets changed, so i am askin for my "boss" u may say ;)

if u could let me know asap i would be real greatfull
icq=33878431
maximuss@blueyonder.co.uk

are servers are sitting there anticipating as one could say ;)

only other problem i have, force not much. as i said u made absorb more rounder

just decrease the ammo, i am a CTF'er big time, i come from UT, HL , Q3 thats the only thing that i think will destroy the CTF world =(
less ammo means actualy less fighting, i play too modes as well
NF sabs CTF, Force sabs CTF, Weapons NF CTF, and Force Weapons CTF, the ammo is needed!

cheers again m8ty

dansolo
05-07-2002, 04:44 PM
Thanks for the new patch, Raven.

I'd wager to say that most people who are bitching about it are mourning the loss of their "flying DFA 1-hit kill" move...

I understand it is really difficult to get the saber balance issue resolved while still including the elements of the game that everyone likes. That said, I think you've done well.

Players will eventually adapt to the new saber styles, and I think we'll get a much more enjoyable MP game in the end. Remember when JO first came out? Everyone called the saber combat chaotic. But then they learned how it worked and stopped complaining.

Cheers,
-ds

Kypt
05-07-2002, 04:48 PM
Are you sure thats all you changed? Maybe an accident somewhere? The strong backward special is now able to kill 100 health 100 shield w/ one shot... I don't recall that before, but it migth be my oversight. :)

Kreuzader
05-07-2002, 05:01 PM
Thanks Raven! I'm extremely happy with this new patch... now, if only someone could port the client to Linux *cough* ;)

Dvlos
05-07-2002, 05:02 PM
See, thanks Raven, you want to know why people are into such heated debates over a patch? Because they love SW and they love this game... so thanks.. don't forget about us, I know you got SoF2 coming (I'm getting that).. patch us, make expansion packs... give us some love... heh..

-=[M@ximus]=-
05-07-2002, 05:18 PM
Man love aint allowed in this thread :P
j/k

NEED.......1...3.......WIN....32......patch....... please...e..e..e.eeeeees

/me sobs in corner ;(

-wT-
05-07-2002, 06:16 PM
I registered to this board just to read the topics, but I just gotta reply now, and as Raven ppl seem to be here I hope I could get some answers.

So, the patch is good... though is it just me or have you decreased the range of the middle style saber?
I don't want to complain, it's your game afterall and I think it's just pathetic when you try to please 100 000 ppl and 50 000 of 'em say "Correct the mistakes you stupid *beep*'s" after you make a patch for 'em.

But I still don't know if it's just me, but after dueling with a bots for some time, I miss atleast half more of my swings? Like, with the swing from another side to the another (either strafe + mouse 1), they always seem to go over the enemy, and the good way to hit the enemy would be to swing from down to up, but it's quite useless as my character always runs too far from the enemy without I getting any hits in. Ofcourse these all could be avoided by practicing and making use of the walk button, but I'd still like to hear some of your opinnions?

And the second thing that got me really pissed while I was trying out the bots after I installed the patch... those god damn bots are all cowards! It just got me pissed that ALL the time the bots just walk away from me, then quickly make a small move towards me and then running away again... it's a god damn pain in the butt to try out the saber attacks if you can't even get a change to hit the enemy!
Ofcourse this can be just me, but it really did seem weird, though I'm not sure if this was the case even before the patch.
And while I'm at the bots, some dueling levels seemed to have abit weird ways for the bots to move (Although I don't know how the bots decide how to move... by looking at predefined waypoints or something like that, or simple AI, or whatever), like the new jedi training place: When below the glass top, the bots just kept jumping... boing boing boing boing boing boing and so on :)
And then the place with the imperial shuttle, with a Reborn, if I was standing next to the nose of the shuttle, the enemy was just rolling below the nose of the shuttle... rolled towards me, then back, then again towards me, then back and so on...

Hmmm... this turned out to be a nice little bug report/FAQ-for-wT, but I hope you could answer some of the questions ChangKhan?

ChangKhan[RAVEN]
05-07-2002, 07:36 PM
Originally posted by -wT-
But I still don't know if it's just me, but after dueling with a bots for some time, I miss atleast half more of my swings?

We didn't change the range of anything, that would be an animation change. This "miss at least half" is probably because you're running the server and client on the same machine with bots and it tends to get expensive. This drops your framerate, and if your framerate is low (especially below 20fps), the server can check as often for saber hits, which means more misses. This is why a dedicated server is best for multiplayer games.

I noticed that bots are cowards, too, on some maps, but I think it depends on the bot and the map (how the nav stuff is layed out)... dark side bots seem to be less likely to turn and run... In any case, no bot AI was changed in the patch.

Note that on maps that do *not* have bot paths on them, bots will just jump around like crazy because they don't know how else to get around the maps. We released a tutorial that explains how to set up your map for bots so that you can distribute it with the bot path info.

-wT-
05-07-2002, 08:17 PM
Thanks for the reply!

About the sabering... I ment that I was getting alot more hits when I was dueling in 1.02c, comparing to 1.03, but when I think about it more, I'm sure it's just me and the different nature of dueling compared to SP and MP in 1.02c. So no problem :)

And about bots... The cowardness is kinda boring, and dark jedis being more agressive doesn't really help, as I usually select the force level to jedi a...a...well something that starts with and "a", the next one from the "jedi", but on to the point: I pick that force level settign so I get the saber rank's up, and push, pull and jump, but with this setting, dark jedis usually take the drain, and then drain me every second making them virtually invincible... ARGH the bots piss me off at times!! ;)
Thanks for the info about the path info for the bots.

Oh and thanks for the excelent patch!

[QGA]Vertigo
05-07-2002, 09:06 PM
What I noticed in the new combat style is that there's a LOT more blocks...

This slows down the game too much.

While long drawn out duels might be good for single player (or duel), for FFA or CTF this is an absolute no-no (imo).

The DFA tweak was okay, but please restore the saber combat to what it used to be (leave the dfa tweak of course), at least for everything but duel then...

For competitive players the patch is , sorry to say, horrid. Everything seems to be a lot more newbie-friendly, closing the gap between good players and newbies...

MrCrusher
05-07-2002, 09:20 PM
Jedi Outcast is now the best melee game ever to grace the PC.
Excellent balancing work.

I can now put my dusty cd of Heretic 2 to rest.........


Thanks Raven. :)

MrCrusher
05-07-2002, 09:24 PM
For competitive players the patch is , sorry to say, horrid. Everything seems to be a lot more newbie-friendly, closing the gap between good players and newbies...

I disagree,

It will more likely widen the gap.....as there seems to be much better control over the duel now.

MatrixCPA
05-07-2002, 09:25 PM
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]

Partial force power disabling is also not supported (though an (unsupported) dedicated server admin can easily toggle certain force powers on and off with the "forcetoggle" console command). If you do a serverinfo and want to do the bitmath, you can look at the g_forcePowerDisable value and try to figure out which powers are disabled. Otherwise, you just have to join the server and see for yourself.

So are you saying that g_forcePowerDisable isn't supposed to work? When the game was first released you included it in your list of JK2 specific cvars and didn't mention that it wasn't supposed to work correctly. ;) I didn't notice forcetoggle show up in the cmdlist, is there a reason for that? What other commands have been excluded, if any? I understand some "aren't supported" but technically, the dedicated server binaries aren't supported at all in the first place--not that I don't do my darnedest to answer all the questions I can in the ded server forum. Come visit sometime. ;)

Vanor
05-07-2002, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by [QGA]Vertigo
While long drawn out duels might be good for single player (or duel), for FFA or CTF this is an absolute no-no (imo).

Why is this automaticaly a bad thing? I mean CTF isn't the only way the game is played, and isn't really very fitting to a SW game.

Look at the maps that have been done so far that you can dl from this sight. 18 duel maps, 7 FFA maps, and no CTF maps (maybe the tools aren't out for CTF yet?). That seems to sugest that dueling is the order of the day with JK2, and if that's true, then it should be the style of play considered first when it comes to balance.

To be somewhat more blunt...

If 75% of the people playing, like to duel and the change in saber fighting makes dueling better... Is it really a good idea to change it back for the sake of the other 25%? (I made up those numbers to make a point)

Vestril
05-07-2002, 09:35 PM
I'm surious as to NF Saber Throw, I've been trying to get information about it since I got the patch--it's the only thing about it I really don't understand. Why was it added to NF servers? The only thing I could think of was that it's a good counter to DFA...but DFA has been crippled...

Don't get me wrong, I love the patch, and I can adapt to all of it--or stop playing MP, I'm just trying to understand they point of that particular addition, I never see it mentioned anywhere and it's a substantial addition. Oh and...

I LOVE RAVEN

NewBJedi
05-07-2002, 10:53 PM
Originally posted by AB_Legion
I LOVE YOU RAVEN!!

Yay! :)

NewBJedi
05-07-2002, 10:58 PM
Originally posted by V-tecc
Why not make it an option in the setup menu?
So that people can choose what suites them best.



Good idea. Options = good. :)

DarthCobra
05-07-2002, 10:59 PM
You wrecked the jumpkick. Getting caught on a lip is hardly as annoying as jumping instead of kickin ... and getting thrown to your death. While i think most of the changes are much needed... This one did not need to be touched. Is it because everyone an there mother is so dependant on the heavy stance?? Or is it really because of the LIP issue. Either way ... I just wanted to say that was a really bad change.

NOW all the whiner flamers can come attack me like they always do. Like its a problem to actually voice your opinion around here. You ppl are just as bad.

S!TH!NAT0R
05-07-2002, 11:05 PM
Great job on the patch Chang and Raven dev!!
-RAVEN ROCKS AZZ!!:D :D :D :D :) ;)

WD_Rage
05-07-2002, 11:16 PM
<sarcasm>
I just love how Raven ignores the gunners.
</sarcasm>

You guys do know more than saberists play this game, right?

Kurgan
05-07-2002, 11:21 PM
I noticed a couple of things that were odd.. when I tap the "change saber style" button often I'll throw my saber (even though I am not touching the secondary fire button). Same thing happens when I tap the "lightsaber" (1) key over and over.

Also, in version 1.02 I was able to successfully bind the numpad (over on the righthand side of most keyboards) keys to stuff, like for example I had * bound to taunt. Now none of those keys work for binding (I can bind them, but then hitting the key does nothing).

I had to rebind my taunt key to \ (on the "normal" part of the keyaboard) and then it worked again. This is a simple logitech keyboard under win2k.

Anybody else notice these anomalies under JK2 1.03?

I'm sure this won't be the last patch. Obviously the new stuff will take getting used to, and it's good to get official comments from the devs on their work. Other than the claims about blocking, what exactly has "broken" the guns for these people? I need to do further testing to see what they are talking about.

Kurgan
05-07-2002, 11:40 PM
I don't want to clutter up this thread with a huge debate, but let me reply to some of those comments:

Why is this automaticaly a bad thing? I mean CTF isn't the only way the game is played, and isn't really very fitting to a SW game.

Well, for one thing, Raven put CTF into the game for a reason, because they wanted people to play it. Why is this a bad thing? What do you have against CTF? It's a staple of FPS games and has been one of the most successful mods in the general since the days of Quake1. If nobody liked it, they wouldn't keep adding it to FPS games.

For another thing, it's quite fun, and requires a dedicated team dynamic. It's one of my favorites actually.

Now let's get to the dark side of this equation...


Look at the maps that have been done so far that you can dl from this sight. 18 duel maps, 7 FFA maps, and no CTF maps (maybe the tools aren't out for CTF yet?). That seems to sugest that dueling is the order of the day with JK2, and if that's true, then it should be the style of play considered first when it comes to balance.

The game (to say nothing of the mod-making tools) have been out HOW LONG NOW? Exactly.

Let me clue you in (no offense) but guess what types of maps are the easiest to make? You guessed it. DUEL MAPS. Why are they so easy you ask? Because all you really need is a box with a couple of spawn points! That's it! Sure, you can make it pretty and add in the item placement for the bowcastor and st rifle, but most people play it with sabers only anyway. The point is, you really don't need much effort to put one of them together, so any beginning mapper can do ten of them in a day.

Now you move up and you get deathmatch, a little more difficult, since item placement is more important, and you need a flow, since you have more than two people to deal with in most cases.

The most difficult of all will be CTF, because you need two "bases" that are somewhat independant in terms of items, and balanced in terms of location and pathways in and out with defense and offense considerations in mind. So with that, most people are not going to attempt to make CTF maps right off the bat. In most FPS games the majority maps created are deathmatch maps. That's simply because they're easy, and they don't change much. CTF is inherently more complex and tougher to make good maps of this type.

However, that doesn't mean that CTF is "bad" or doesn't belong in the game. I'd say that belittles Raven's choice just as much as saying that Guns don't belong in the game, etc.

Heck, when you think about it, "Deathmatch" is about as un-starwarsy and unrealistic as you can get. A bunch of people trapped in a small area, respawning and killing each other with wild abandon, with weapons and powerups strewn all over the place that also respawn? And good guys killing good guys and bad guys killing bad guys and vice versa.. forever and ever.... for POINTS???

"Honorable" saber duels are unrealistic, since in war, 99.999% of the time, nobody cares about honor, they just kill or be killed. In the Star Wars films you rarely see any kind of "honor" shonw either. People use sneaky moves and whatever tactics they can to win. Even "duel mode" is unrealistic, because its in a caned environment, with, again, good guys and bad guys fighting each other, but not in the combinations you'd see in the films (example: stormtroopers vs. dark jedi, Luke vs. Kyle). Nothing short of an RPG is going to be realistic here. But you still have SP.

If you want to talk in terms of "realism" then Single player is where the realism is, and multiplayer throws it completely out the window (as it always has in FPS games, 99.99% of the time). MP has always been about competition and fun, not about fitting into the "universe."

To be somewhat more blunt, I think your post just comes off as an excuse, because your "side" (the people who want the game to be only about saber dueling since that's all they want to play) seems to be "ahead" with this patch in terms of what you want. You're basically saying "well, it's better this way, since this is the way I like to play and it's better than the way everyone else likes to play." Again, the problem is, JK2 isn't a saber-dueling exclusive game, so the other parts of the game that aren't attending to suffer (and the people who play them) suffer as well.

Others have pointed out in other posts how its a "vocal minority" that complain about the patch. By the same token, I could say the saber duel-exclusivists may also be a vocal minority. Keep in mind that of the thousands or tends of thousands who buy a game, only a small percentage participate in the online community like the people on these forums. I think it's a bit arrogant to assume that even if on these forums one POV seems to dominate, that that's the only valid one.


If 75% of the people playing, like to duel and the change in saber fighting makes dueling better...

But here's the thing, you're saying that Raven wasted their time and money making a complete game, because in the month or so its been out a bunch of people choose to ignore 75% of the game content. Okay....

I'd rather enjoy the complete work that Raven has produced, and not be snobbish about it and say that only the saber fighting deserve attention, because that's what "all the cool kids are playing" ; )

JK2 is a complete game, with a richness and variety to its gameplay. If you like only playing one style of game (honorable saber dueling) that's fine, but I think you're missing out...


Is it really a good idea to change it back for the sake of the other 25%? (I made up those numbers to make a point)

It's worth it to change it back to the game that Raven spent their time creating. They didn't set out to make a saber dueling game, they set out to make an FPS in the tradition of Jedi Knight Dark Forces II.

There are already plenty of melee dueling games out there people can play. JK was unique because it had dueling AND guns, as well as other types of play, in one complete package.

Again, I think its a matter of certain people feeling "elite" because all they can see is saber dueling ad infinatum...

Wolf Katarn
05-08-2002, 12:05 AM
I disagree completely the gun portion of the game isnt even worhty of it if jk2 had only guns it would be very unsatisfactory to me the fact that its just like every other shooter leqding your target and bolts travel soo slow. but thats another topic i dont know abotu you but starwars is about the jedi to me not about the crazy explosive guns that dont even exist(except maybe in EU) Whats more fun mindlessly running around shooting each other strafing in circles bunny hopping ect ect or a real true lightsaber dueling experience? It is what the saber enthusiast's dream off and if you dont like lightsabers your in the wrong place I love this new patch it is almost perfect in everyway the lightsaber fighting is almost exactly like singleplayer unfortunatley i dotn see many server for it but i hope that will soon change
maybe im wrong maybe the game i want isnt JK2 but is actaully the real jedi simulator something either way i know i love this patch.

Borf
05-08-2002, 12:31 AM
you don't like guns join a sabre only server, cause sabre only rules...

too many people complaining, STFU and be merry

S!TH!NAT0R
05-08-2002, 12:31 AM
Well said Wolf K!;) :D

Blamer
05-08-2002, 01:16 AM
Okay, it says the game has hand dismemberment now, but what I want to know is if it's really possible now for the server to enable the dismemberment variables without crashing. My friend and I desperately want to duel each other with full dismemberment action.

zufuss
05-08-2002, 01:23 AM
1) give ctf their ammo back

2) don't nerf healing so much its trashed.

3) maybe tone down drain JUST a tad?

4) WHO IN THE WORLD complained about grip. please give us old grip back. The only map its any good on is ctf and ffa nar shaddar streets.

5) btw the backstabs are now the uber stances...really they are. these have to be fix asap.

Jedi_Yakko
05-08-2002, 01:28 AM
I had really high hopes for this patch, practicing against bots really impressed me. Then I logged in to play tonight...

All I ran into were "janitors" tonight. Morons who did nothing except knock down and heavy-stance backstab to sweep the floor. Short of pretending you're one of the new bots, running away and spamming lighting the entire time, there's no way to win a 1-on-1 duel against this crap in close quarters. It's far worse than the DFA was before 1.03. Now every skill-less moron can rack up kills without any effort... it's pathetic.

Good try Raven, you were on the right track, but this patch has ended up being candy for the pathetic DFA-spammers out there. Maybe I'll try playing online again after the next patch.

[D12]SirBanshee
05-08-2002, 01:37 AM
Is there a reason that Saber Throw is in NO FORCE duels? Its NO FORCE, and yet "Force Saber Throw" is included. I respect the changes done to the DFA and stances. But this is rather dumb. As a NFer Gunner and Saberist I play NF and now people can just throw a saber whenever. Which isn't NF. This is really messing up the playing ability of FFAs and Duels.

I think your also missing another fundamental part of Jedi Knight. Guns. You've toned them down extremely too much. To the point where its not even fun anymore.

JK2 is mainly based on Sabers so you released a patch geared towards Sabers. But you weren't getting massive negative feedback from Gunners becuase the Guns weren't great mind you, but they played OK. And yet you completly ruined that aspect of the game basically.

Your game is based off the Q3 engine so your gun section of the game should naturally be strong. The Gun section of JK1 is what kept it alive for 4 YEARS. This is mimicing Asskicker, Torment and Rage's post becuase they were hitting it dead on. You have to consider both aspects of the game to make a coherent patch.

You made 2 really big errors in this patch. The No Force Force Saber Throw and the Guns issue. You really should've looked into the gunners feedback instead of catering to the needs of 20,000 whining saberists.

NewBJedi
05-08-2002, 01:57 AM
The simple solution is to patch the game so that a person can play on servers with these two options:

1. The way it is after the patch.

2. The way it is before the patch.

Allow server admins to change the new patches default changes:

Force powers, weapons, saber style.

Make them rulesets - for example:

g_spsaberstyle

1 = patched MP (SP style) saber. (default)

0 = non-patched MP saber.

g_newforcestyle

1 = patched force style. (default)

0 = non-patched force style.

g_newweaponstyle

1 = patched new weaponstyle. (default)
0 = non-patched weapon style, for the competition crowd.

g_saberthrow

1 = patched saber throw in duels. (default)

0 = non-patched no saber throw in duels.

A few new rulesets won't hurt anything, especially if the defaults are pro-patch. Admins can change them, it'll reflect in the rulesets, and people can use modifiers and filters to find the one they prefer.

If that's too complicated.

Simply make a mini-mod within the game - so it runs in the old style mode - give that a ruleset and be done with it.

That way, whatever you change people can still return to the old style - I'm sure there will be servers running it - and not have room to complain or be angry about the new patch(es).

TigerShark
05-08-2002, 02:02 AM
ChangKhan[RAVEN]:

Since the patch allows MP dismemberment, can slow motion death be enabled with a command line?

MightyPez
05-08-2002, 02:09 AM
The only problem I have had thus far is that my dedicated server seems to like to boot folks for having an unpure client (myself included!) Some slip by, but most get booted. If they reconnect, they can play fine.

WD_Rage
05-08-2002, 02:14 AM
To clear the air:

I have no problems with the saber issues that were patched (although some were fixed a bit drastically). If the saberists feel things need to be tweak in the saber realm, by all means, tweak them. However I, being a gunner, paid the same amount of money as mosts of the saberists (most of the whiners I can guarantee have warez versions), and I expect the game to meet to my expectations, too. Is my money not as good as the others?

Raven, you heard the massive amounts of whining from people that didn't even pay for the game. These people don't even bother to learn the game, yet, you bow to their wishes. You didn't hear from gunners because we could live with what was doled out in the initial release. Yes, when (and if) the source was released, many changes geared toward old-school JK1 players and gunners would be made in mods, but that is how we like to play.

NewBJedi, I have a better proposal:

1. Raven should make a reversion patch, and then begin working on a new patch that pleases everyone that has bothered to learn the game. If saberists want to keep the new saber gameplay, stick that back in. If gunners want more ammo (believe me, that would fix everything -- almost) give them more ammo. Make the guns consume the original amounts of ammo, but give us a little bit more ammo on the maps. It's not hard to please everyone that has taken the time to learn the game. For the Padawan's that just downloaded the game and have no intention upon buying, let them suffer.

2. Release the source code so that the modders can start releasing mods towards our own ideals. I tell you, this would fix many, many problems.

Server-side variables are all great, but you're asking for quite alot of confusion (at least, judging by the amounts of whining from the newbs).

SirBanshee, thank you for your support. Since Raven is giving all the attention to sabers, we need all the voices we can muster to give us, the gunners, what we want as well.

Necro
05-08-2002, 02:53 AM
chang: a question, is there any plans to make saber's actually require SOME skill? i mean atm it's basically hack and slash, i still remember the good old days of heretic 2, now that required more skill :)

idlemind
05-08-2002, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by [QGA]Vertigo
What I noticed in the new combat style is that there's a LOT more blocks...

This slows down the game too much.

While long drawn out duels might be good for single player (or duel), for FFA or CTF this is an absolute no-no (imo).

The DFA tweak was okay, but please restore the saber combat to what it used to be (leave the dfa tweak of course), at least for everything but duel then...

For competitive players the patch is , sorry to say, horrid. Everything seems to be a lot more newbie-friendly, closing the gap between good players and newbies...

I agree 100%. The patch does seem to have been made in with "newbie friendlieness" in mind. The gap between skilled and unskilled has shrunk, and not in a "New patch, time to learn new moves", but in a "cool moves are so slow and pointless and get blocked so often that I may as well swing away like a blind madman and get as many kills" kind of way.

I don't play with force, from what I understand it's more balanced now. But saber combat has become dull, less skillful and far too drawn out.

Necro
05-08-2002, 03:02 AM
also for gun ppl: want guns? why play jk2? jedi knight is about being a jedi, using the force...and the saber. not about guns! if you want guns go play q3 or counter-strike!

NewBJedi
05-08-2002, 03:04 AM
Originally posted by WD_Rage
[B]To clear the air:

I have no problems with the saber issues that were patched (although some were fixed a bit drastically). If the saberists feel things need to be tweak in the saber realm, by all means, tweak them. However I, being a gunner, paid the same amount of money as mosts of the saberists (most of the whiners I can guarantee have warez versions), and I expect the game to meet to my expectations, too. Is my money not as good as the others?



I hear you. If I was dev I wouldn't have messed with the guns - no one asked for that - the simple answer was to not play on gun servers.


NewBJedi, I have a better proposal:

1. Raven should make a reversion patch, and then begin working on a new patch that pleases everyone that has bothered to learn the game. If saberists want to keep the new saber gameplay, stick that back in. If gunners want more ammo (believe me, that would fix everything -- almost) give them more ammo. Make the guns consume the original amounts of ammo, but give us a little bit more ammo on the maps. It's not hard to please everyone that has taken the time to learn the game. For the Padawan's that just downloaded the game and have no intention upon buying, let them suffer.


I don't understand. Why make a reverse patch when you can simply just reinstall the game and not patch?


Server-side variables are all great, but you're asking for quite alot of confusion (at least, judging by the amounts of whining from the newbs).


The confusion would just make them play the defaults, that's all.

The advanced players would be able to tweak.

Sifl
05-08-2002, 03:49 AM
Have you guys even tried the patch or are you just complaining about changes you've heard of or just glanced at? I guarantee you that gunners are *still* at least as powerful as saber-users (and, considering they have force powers and long-range guns and explosives, they can still kill saber-users easily). You gunners must be really insecure in your abilties if you think not being able to fire 25 alt-fire repeater shots in a row makes you impotent... jeez. :rolleyes:

Lucky
05-08-2002, 03:52 AM
The problem is that a majority of servers are going to be running 1.03, except for competitive ladders/leagues/tourney's, etc.

So now I've got very few options of where to play as a mildly competitive ff gunner. Before, I could join just about any server and get a decent game, but now I've gotta search long and far to find a 1.02 server.

Patching it yet again, to fix the guns so that ctf is once more playable, will let me play on the bulk of the public servers again.

Also, Rage might be an exclusive gunner, but who says I am? If i want to benefit from the patch but not be confined to dm sabers and duel, then im basically SOL.

Solution: A whole nother patch, one that un nerfs the guns.

I'd settle for the SDK, but I think releasing an un-nerf patch would be a nice temporary fix.

At the very least I'd like to hear Raven's reasoning behind the nerfs, and what they're planning to do to this game next, so I can decide if I need to find somthing else to do.


Lucky

bellenberger
05-08-2002, 04:03 AM
that the secondary fire of the repeater and the fletch was WAY overpowered. On servers that allowed guns, all the gun people did was get the repeater, find a group of saber people fighting, and blow them all away with a massive spam of secondary repeater fire. There was no counter if you had the lightsaber. Pull you say? Good luck getting close enough and at the correct angle to pull. And even if you did pull their weapon, all the gunner would have to do is break out their lightsaber. There was no disadvantage to using the repeater.

All Raven has done is balance the power of the secondary fire of the guns with the damage it does. Big deal. They made the sabers less deadly too. I'm sorry that you can't get 50 kills on saber vs. gun servers. boo hoo.

Thank you Raven for this patch.

Lucky
05-08-2002, 04:15 AM
LoL, thats not the point tho. We're talking about ctf mostly, and its nearly impossible to defend your flag because none of the ranged weapons are viable.

The saber should have been made deadiler, instead they nerfed all of the guns *and* the saber and accomplished nothing. I can still spam the repeater into a crowd of saberists, only difference is, now I have to get ammo more often and its even easier to kill them because they're CLUSTERING EVEN MORE.

So this patch doesn't balance the guns vrs sabers, it screws up ctf mostly.

As for the saber combat, I actually think thats pretty decent. Looks much more cinematic, however in terms of gameplay, the fixes screwed one of the main competitive modes of play.


Lucky

WD_Rage
05-08-2002, 04:56 AM
Originally posted by Necro
also for gun ppl: want guns? why play jk2? jedi knight is about being a jedi, using the force...and the saber. not about guns! if you want guns go play q3 or counter-strike!

Bleh. This excuse is over-used. Why don't we play Q3? Because Q3 doesn't have force powers. If you think to two are the same, I challenge you to a FF Guns battle one vs. one.

Along your line of thinking: want sabers? why play jk2? jedi knight had sabers and you can play that.

Bleh. I play FF Guns because I like FF Guns. There's other people than you saberists out there playing JK2. I'm sorry you lack the discipline and skill to become a good FF gunner.

bellenberger,

You were a saberist playing on a server that allows guns. Stop crying. If you want sabers play on a saber only server. If you don't, you're asking for a whooping from the gunners. As for being overpowered, I think not. You're just easy targets.

NewBJedi,

"I don't understand. Why make a reverse patch when you can simply just reinstall the game and not patch?"

It takes less time to run a reversion patch than reinstalling the game. Thankfully, I backed up all my files before running the 1.03 patch and I didn't have to reinstall. Many others didn't think to do that.

Sifl,

Nah, I'm griping on baseless thoughts. Of course I've played with the new patch. It's not a fact that guns are as powerful (or more so) than sabers, it's a fact that Raven took it upon themselves to serve the whining newbs to do something about guns since they were sabering on a gun server. I guess you don't do much competitive gaming. This patch nixes competitive gaming for the gunners.

Sir Viruz
05-08-2002, 05:02 AM
GOD i love this patch. RAVEN KEEP IT UP. MAKE ANOTHER

Nemios
05-08-2002, 08:38 AM
I like very much the new patch. My only doubt is about Heal & Drain.

Before they worked this way:

Heal lvl 1: 10
Heal lvl 2: 25
Heal lvl 3: 50

Pros: You could use it always. More health than Drain.
Cons: No other effects on enemies.

Drain lvl 1: 10
Drain lvl 1: 15
Drain lvl 1: 20

Pros: It also drains the Force of the enemy.
Cons: No enemy around, no health.

Now, other than Force cost, they changed this way:

Heal lvl 1: 5
Heal lvl 2: 10
Heal lvl 3: 25

Pros: You could use it always.
Cons: No other effects on enemies. Lvl 1 & 2 gives you too few health points.

Yeah. Lvl 1 & 2 are a bit too weak! The health you gain is even less than Drain! Since Health is useful because Dark Side has a lot of damaging powers, it should at least give you more health than Drain. I think the right values should be:

Heal lvl 1: 15
Heal lvl 2: 20
Heal lvl 3: 25

or

Heal lvl 1: 10
Heal lvl 2: 20
Heal lvl 3: 30

Anyway, great job Raven!

V-tecc
05-08-2002, 09:34 AM
Dear Raven Dev. team...

Here are some dislikes I unfortunately need to state concerning the newly released patch.

I hope you will read this.

My thougts...

Drain is useless now.
The problem that was with drain in my opinion was that people combined it with, for instance, grip or lightning and spammed it.
So what you did was minimized the usefulness of drain so that it now it's practically useless.
This to me is kind of like cutting of the arm when its hurt instead of healing it.

What my idea is, make it so that it can't be used offensively:
Maybe you shouldnt be able to combine it with grip or lightning.
After using drain, disable those forces for a number of seconds.

The kick move
I have said this before,why not make it so it's an option in the setup menu. That way people can choose themselves what they prefer, one tap or two.

Grip
Was easily countered before, I never had a problem with people gripping me, I would just push them.
And if someone actually did manage to throw me of a ledge before I could push them, I would grant them that. But now that force is by my opinion useless.

What I think should be done is: make it so only the people who don't have level 3 set on this force can't run with the person they have in there grip. Someone else has said this before.

Saber combat

Originally posted by idlemind
true star wars spirit? The star wars movies weren't based on gameplay. To make gameplay imitate a movie makes no sense at all. Especially since you cant control blocking. If you could somehow make blocking something of a skill, then yeah sure, making it more like the movie would be great. But blocking is automatic. So no skill to block, no fun. It looks more like the movies, and plays about as fun as auto-attack in everquest (an exaggeration, but you get the general sentiment I'm trying to get across here).

the game looked plenty cool enough before. Why sacrifice gameplay for ultra saber blocking cool light effects?

That was a great point.

What needed to be done (by my opinion) was:
Tweaking of the DFA hit box, and minimization of the damage caused by the saber buried in the ground after the move. Since the stance IS slower it should have the long range it had before. All tough, maybe It should be tweaked a bit on the start and end of the swing so that the hit doesn't kill you in one move, but instead take a maximum damage of 25 HP.

This is MY opinion and I'm entitled to it, please don't post any destructive criticism as I won't reply to it.

And I also want to thank Raven for the interaction they have shown with the community, thank you.

V-tecc

D.L.
05-08-2002, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]



I noticed that bots are cowards, too, on some maps, but I think it depends on the bot and the map (how the nav stuff is layed out)... dark side bots seem to be less likely to turn and run... In any case, no bot AI was changed in the patch.



Yeah but screaming "Run you bitch, RUN!!!!" at a screen is a bit of a laugh really.

;)

Blank1234
05-08-2002, 10:02 AM
"that the secondary fire of the repeater and the fletch was WAY overpowered. On servers that allowed guns, all the gun people did was get the repeater, find a group of saber people fighting, and blow them all away with a massive spam of secondary repeater fire."

It's not the gunners fault that saber ballerinas don't understand the concept of weapon FFA's. It's very dumb of a player to join in one of those twirl-fests on gun servers and expect NOT to get killed by some sort of explosive. I should add, nothings changed in that department. The only difference is you have less spam of flak/repeater, and more detonator/tripmine/rocket use and that one guy who backs into the group and sweeps everyone with strong stance.


"There was no counter if you had the lightsaber. Pull you say? Good luck getting close enough and at the correct angle to pull. And even if you did pull their weapon, all the gunner would have to do is break out their lightsaber. There was no disadvantage to using the repeater."

You could pull/flip kick (atleast last patch) and then they were on their back, where a saber swing would usually clip 100 health off of them. Unless they had absorb that is... which ironically enough, got a boost this patch.

Exactly, what's the disadvantage of using a repeater now? According to your example, I can't see a disadvantage. They still can pull out their saber after they run out of ammo/get pulled.

Blank

bellenberger
05-08-2002, 12:30 PM
>bellenberger,

>You were a saberist playing on a server that allows guns. Stop >crying. If you want sabers play on a saber only server. If you >don't, you're asking for a whooping from the gunners. As for >being overpowered, I think not. You're just easy targets.

So basically your claiming that, in a game called *JEDI* Knight, being a saberist on a server that allows guns is asking for a whooping? We are only easy targets because the guns were overpowered? I'm just asking for a fair fight between saber and gun. It wasn't fair before. I hope it is more balanced now that you can't spam the secondary fire 50 times (I haven't found a 1.03 saber vs. guns server yet).

If you don't like actually having a saber vs. gun balance go play UT or Q3. If you want force powers, write a mod. But a game called Jedi Knight should actually be like playing as a Jedi Knight and not as another Quake.

DarkAgent
05-08-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Sir Viruz
GOD i love this patch. RAVEN KEEP IT UP. MAKE ANOTHER

Agree. This patch was 99% PERFECT! My opinion the game (prior to the patch) was only playable if you were a spammer of the exploit moves. Now I can play without the worry of getting DFA'd by the same guy hundreds of times (because that's the only move they know).

I play for the enjoyment of the game. Whether I suck or own a fight does not matter to me. Some people think that the most important thing is seeing their name at the top of the server list. These are the people that now must re-think their strategies and learn how to win without spamming.

Cheers RAVEN ... DarkAgent is one satisfied customer.

DA :p

els.DarkLord
05-08-2002, 12:42 PM
ChangKhan[RAVEN]:The back-flip off a wall/opponent was changed into a double-tap. This was mostly done because it was frustrating to try to get over a small lip and end up back- flipping off of it. In combat, you can still kick someone and knock them down with this move, but you have to do a double-tap. Also, it was noticed that the strong style was completely vulnerable to this move because of the long wind-up time of it's attacks. A somewhat skilled jump-kicker could always knock down a strong style user (often you could not see the kick coming). So the jump-kick was made to not *knock down* a strong user who is in the middle of a swing. It still does damage and you still flip off them.


Zek:Also, you mentioned an icon for partial force power disabling... Will this be supported without some serious console knowledge(and will it be possible to see what is and isn't disabled before joining)?

I'd REALLY LOVE to see this option better supportet too!
Maybe make it selectable through the menus, and so on. I know there are a lot of options, because one could disable every force power seperately, so maybe, might it not be possible to have a 'Neutral Force Only' Option? (including Saber Forces / Throw of course) Just like the 'No Force' Option.. there even is enough room within the GUI, right under 'No Force' *G*
No, really, i LOVE this kind of server setup, so it would be sweet to have this one better supportet :-/

For the backflip thingy: I'd really like to see the one-click version back, since it already got tweaked down, if used against the slow red stance, i don't think it would be something ppl may spam with.. I don't think it ever was. And if the 'accidential backflip' really is a problem, than ok, make it an option (note: this would not totaly change gameplay, would it?), but I'm not too sure, cause if one KNOWS that *running* into a wall won't let you jump over it, but INTO it ... ;) (/me thinks this is logical *g*).
And a single-click swift-kick would be of much better use against blue stance running constantly right into you.


Anyways, very good work with this patch! I'm beginning to like the way heal and drain work now (and I'm saying that while using drain myself.... it really IS less powerfull, but that makes saber fights so much more 'realistic' and enjoyable!)
Fells much more balanced now, the only thing I'm really worrying about now are the backstabs... oh my ;)

I really hope you are not considering some sort of option to have the saber combat like it was pre-patch OR like it is now.. this would really mess things up /me things. (No, I'm not really a newbie). I think that the tweaks to the saber system are there for a (good!) reason, and if servers could be run, with the 'old rules' this would ne a totaly different game again.. an unbalanced one. I'd say: NO! But this is just my opinion.

About the Gunners:
while it's not my intention to enter this discussion all I'm thinkin when I hear stuff like
"You were a saberist playing on a server that allows guns. Stop crying. If you want sabers play on a saber only server. If you don't, you're asking for a whooping from the gunners. As for being overpowered, I think not. You're just easy targets."
is OMG!
Ok, i know nobody of you spuper-gamers here is actually interested in the thoughts of a more-starwars-fan-than-gamer, but this is SILLY. I still think guns are overpowered (unblockable secondary fire modes...).

^^^^ Just my very own opinon ^^^^

WD_Rage
05-08-2002, 01:08 PM
Originally posted by bellenberger
>bellenberger,

>You were a saberist playing on a server that allows guns. Stop >crying. If you want sabers play on a saber only server. If you >don't, you're asking for a whooping from the gunners. As for >being overpowered, I think not. You're just easy targets.

So basically your claiming that, in a game called *JEDI* Knight, being a saberist on a server that allows guns is asking for a whooping? We are only easy targets because the guns were overpowered? I'm just asking for a fair fight between saber and gun. It wasn't fair before. I hope it is more balanced now that you can't spam the secondary fire 50 times (I haven't found a 1.03 saber vs. guns server yet).

If you don't like actually having a saber vs. gun balance go play UT or Q3. If you want force powers, write a mod. But a game called Jedi Knight should actually be like playing as a Jedi Knight and not as another Quake.

I'm sorry you get whooped on a gun server becauseyou don't have the common sense to either pick up a gun and defend yourself or find a saber only server.

"So basically your claiming that, in a game called *JEDI* Knight, being a saberist on a server that allows guns is asking for a whooping? We are only easy targets because the guns were overpowered?"

Yes, being a saberist and being on a gun server is asking for a whooping. And no, you are not easy targets only because the guns were overpowered (they're not overpowered). Here is what made you easy targets:

Sabering takes time. If you're in a group, there'll be about 3 to 4 saberists going after each other. That's fine, but if it's a gun server, you will get blown away every time. Why? Because you and your saber friends are too busy trying to be a "true" Jedi that you think nothing can harm you. Instead, since you're caught up in your little duel, you'll get blasted before you know it. Who's fault is it? Ummmmmm....... YOURS for playing on a gun server. All the gunner is doing is using the tools that are laid out before him. I'm sorry you're too stupid to understand that sabering on a gun server will get you killed, always.

"I'm just asking for a fair fight between saber and gun. It wasn't fair before. I hope it is more balanced now that you can't spam the secondary fire 50 times (I haven't found a 1.03 saber vs. guns server yet)."

In reality, there can be no balance. Bringing a saber to a gunfight is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I don't care if the knife bearer is a Jedi (you forget the gunner is too), a Jedi cannot deflect EVERY shot or push EVERY projectile away from himself. If you don't believe me, why did Qui Gon and Obi Wan run from the destroyer droids in ep. 1.

"If you don't like actually having a saber vs. gun balance go play UT or Q3. If you want force powers, write a mod. But a game called Jedi Knight should actually be like playing as a Jedi Knight and not as another Quake."

There shouldn't be the balace because guns will win against a saber. It just makes since. As for playing UT or Q3, no. I want to play FF Guns in JK2. I paid just as much (or more) as you did (or maybe you're one of those that didn't play anything) for this game, so I should have a say on what goes into it as well, just like the newbie whiners, like yourself, who haven't understood that if you saber on a gun server you will always die.

Get some common sense, please.

DarthNoodles
05-08-2002, 01:24 PM
...that's all you people do.

Why don't you shut your pie hole and learn to play better with the new version. All the servers will eventually be running the new version so get used to it.

Here's my take on some issues/complaints:

Kick being changed to double press: Are you that lazy/stupid that you can't manage to double press a button instead of single press. It's one extra press, that's all, not a major change in the usefullness of the jump kick. How hard is it to do this? I don't have a problem with it. SHUT UP!!!

Sabers/Gun balance: How long are we going to have to put up with people complaining that Sabers can't equal all the guns? I think we will forever be hearing people b**ch about it. Is any one gun the "cat's meow" of guns? Is the rocket launcher unstoppable/perfect? NO! No weapon is perfect. They all have their strengths and weakness in different situations. When are you people going to realise that the saber is also a weapon with strengths and weaknesses? It is not realistic (as realistic and the Star Wars universe can be) that the saber/force powers should be able to protect you from every weapon. Jedis in the movies did use guns. SHUT UP and learn to adapt!!!

Good job RAVEN!! I'm having tons 'o fun with the game.

DarthNoodles out...

Lord Nodata
05-08-2002, 02:10 PM
Can you tell us EXACTLY how to turn on the Jedi vs Mercs mode? plskthxbye...

[QGA]Vertigo
05-08-2002, 02:40 PM
This is a copy of what I posted in another thread (ad I'll put it into a few more threads too, I'd really like to know what comments I'd get on this)

Here goes...

I'd like to see everything returned to what it was...

Then...

Have the DFA receive the same tweak as in the v1.03 patch (non-turnable)

Make backpedalling (sp?) go at about 75% of running speed (to catch up with the cowards who always keep running, and to make thesaber battles more interesting,as you cannot just go back and front dodging attacks anymore)

Increase the damage OR the speed of blue... (40 damage or 25% speed increase would be just right, I guess, to make it more usefull)

Make heal use a bit more force than first, but not as much as in v1.03... (25hp for 3 blocks seems good on level 3)

Let absorb be invisible, have no (or almost none, like half a block) activation cost, but eat about half a block per sec of force to have it maintained.

Drain should have 200% efficiency, in other words, draining someone's full force meter should use up only half your force meter. Catch is, it should take 7-10 secs of continued draining to fully drain someone. One full force meter drained = 75hp seems about right to me. If the drain is absorbed, it should give no health to the drainer, and give force to the absorber in a rate of about 1/2 of what the drainer spent.

Push and Pull should work on someone who turned on absorb, but only with 50% effect. Knocking people over with Pull/Push when they're absorbing should be impossible.
Push and pull should also require a bit less force power.
Pull should have a longer area of effect, so you can pull someone's gun out of his hands from a larger distance (+50% range sounds good)
Push should, when aimed on a projectile, use less force and be a lot quicker to use (to be able to keep up with the shots of the gunner), BUT, the aim on the projectile should be more precise, so you'll need some skill in doing this.
The tweaks to push/pull should balance things out against gunners, AFAIK, so the guns can be like they were in the beginning.

Mind Trick, Dark Rage, Seeing, Speed, etc... was all perfectly fine, no changes needed there.

Remember that al these changes are what I think should be done to the PRE-patch gameplay, in other words, undo any changes the patch did, then apply these changes. IMO it should make for balanced, competitive gameplay.

Now, to adress the issue of people wanting to have a more movie-like, we could include an extra RPG/Movie option, to switch to the new style, with lots of blocks.
Competitive style (or normal style) with the same blocking ratio as first should be default. I think that we could please most of the saberists with this option.

(BTW, some people say there's less randomness in the patch due to the fact that now, when you slash while standing still, you have always the same slash. I agree that it should have been like that in the first version, along with the tweaked DFA.)

Also, please note that I'm not a DFA spammer/gun whore/heal slu/whatever... I'm one of those guys who likes fair play, doesn't whine about "cheap moves" but tries to find a counter... if they can pull it off, it's MY fault... so please don't flame me or something, I'm only trying to give some constructive critisism here.

So... comments anyone ? :)

WD_ToRMeNt
05-08-2002, 02:42 PM
Some more links for Chang...

http://www.teamwarfare.com/forums/showthread.asp?forumid=18&threadid=7441&page=1

http://forums.caleague.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=35;t=000003

WD_Rage
05-08-2002, 03:02 PM
Originally posted by DarthNoodles
...that's all you people do.

Why don't you shut your pie hole and learn to play better with the new version. All the servers will eventually be running the new version so get used to it.

No, the new patch will not be run on TWL servers, and I imagine other leagues will do the same thing. The new patch stifles competitive play. You can get used to it all you want, but defending your base or flag and controlling the middle area during a match are almost impossible now. Competitive play is nixed with this patch.

Kuroshi
05-08-2002, 03:17 PM
People are just mad that the new patch reverts everyone back to zero. The only advantages one really has after a game is patched is the ability to aim and the knowledge of the game's mechanics that are left over since the last version. When one encounters changes in those mechanics, he/she will begin to see other changes that don't exist. Within a month most people will have become accustomed to the changes while a vocal minority will continue to talk about the glory of the "old days". If you've never seen this happen before and you're surprised, I feel your pain.

WD_Rage
05-08-2002, 04:17 PM
Kuroshi, that's not the reason at all. We're mad that Raven changed our aspect of the game due to newbs playing sabers on a gun server. CTF has been neutered. No one can effectively execute their jobs. With the HR, we now only have a maximum of 12 shots. If we can't get to an ammo pack, we're left with a default of 4 shots. How can we properly defend our flag if we're constantly running for ammo. Someone with default health/sheilds takes 3 direct hits to kill. That leaves 1 shot left for any other attackers.

We're not going away anytime soon. Many of the leagues are sticking with 1.02 as the platform for ladders and tourneys.

Raven just made some idioitic mistakes, which they should rectify.

NielsN
05-08-2002, 04:24 PM
@ChangKhan[RAVEN]

Hey, on 04-05-2002 I told you: a lot of our readers and myself want the dead bodies keeping on the ground. Is there anything we can do?

And you answered: Unfortunately, no, not at this time. But if we do a patch, I will be certain to include a console variable that makes the bodies stay forever... :)

The patch is released -- what is the "console variable" ? :)

Niels

DarthNoodles
05-08-2002, 04:26 PM
Originally posted by WD_Rage

No, the new patch will not be run on TWL servers, and I imagine other leagues will do the same thing.


That's rather stubborn of you. I guess you'd rather be stuck with DFA spammers and drainwhores than adapt. You've just exlcuded youself from every patch in the future, unless they revert some changes which I doubt they will do. You'll also have to tolerate work arounds for the exploits (arm models) instead of enjoying all the models.


The new patch stifles competitive play.


BTW the patch is going to do the exact opposite of stifle sompetitive play. It's going to make play MORE competitive. The spammers newbies will be forced to become BETTER players and if they don't they'll likely quit playing because they'll suck. Either way it means the ratio of good players out there will increase. How does THAT stifle competitive play?

You can get used to it all you want, but defending your base or flag and controlling the middle area during a match are almost impossible now. Competitive play is nixed with this patch.

How is this a problem? So you have a herder time defending the middle and your base, but so will your opponent. So look at it this way...It will be easier to get the flag and get it back. How is that nixing competitive play?

I have seen very few (probably none actually) arguments against this patch that are valid concerns for the gameplay.

Learn to accept change, it's a rather constant thing in life. You'll simply become a better, more diverse player if you can learn to adapt to new surroundings, evironments and game play styles.

DarthNoodles out...

dansolo
05-08-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by WD_Rage
Raven just made some idioitic mistakes, which they should rectify.

What a pile of shiat.

Raven is balancing the gameplay and all you whiners can talk about is how YOU WOULD DO IT BETTER

Let me share something with you. They know what they are doing. They are a reputable game developer. Just let them do their job and if you don't like it then send them an email or GO AWAY.

I'll see the real players online...

Spider AL
05-08-2002, 05:13 PM
I find this absolutely hilarious. The people who were whining about how the sabres were "weak" and the guns overpowered before the patch are now the ones telling the gunners to "stop whining." and to "adapt." This is exactly what everyone was telling you sabreists before the patch, and you didn't listen then, so don't pull it out now. :D

You're hypocrites. :)

And some advice for Gunners, get working on learning how to conserve ammo more efficiently, or just don't use the patch eh, you're starting to sound like a bunch of sabreists.

Personally, as I always said, I don't really care about any of the changes in the patch. It hasn't affected me one bit, because whatever the game is like, I will adapt to it. I'd advise all of you to do the same.

Kuroshi
05-08-2002, 05:13 PM
Originally posted by WD_Rage
Kuroshi, that's not the reason at all. We're mad that Raven changed our aspect of the game due to newbs playing sabers on a gun server. CTF has been neutered. No one can effectively execute their jobs.

I'm sure you realize that if the other side prefers your style they will have the exact same problems. I know you liked your style of play, but if the patch changes game mechanics that's just the way things are. You fall back on the excuse that people that are new to the game are the problem, which is wrong. That is never the problem, and you know it.

If you don't like the new patch, you can always play the old version, which I am sure you will. You will do this because you don't want to change, and there is no problem with that.

Vanor
05-08-2002, 05:58 PM
If this isn't true, then please corect me.

The main problem with CTF now, is there isn't enough ammo on the maps for people to play effectively.

So it shouldn't be that hard for Raven or more to the point, a fan to add more ammo to the maps via the tools and then people could use that.

As far as sabers go, I'm starting to think that it simply won't be possable to make both types of players happy. On the one hand you have the CTF/FFA types who want the sabers to be one hit kills or at least fast kills. On the other you have the duelist types who want their fights to last longer, and be more intense.

A long drawn out saber fight, won't work very well in a CTF game I'm sure.

So basicly Raven will have to decide who gets what they want, CTF players or Duel players. If that's the case, then the decision should be based on what is played more. I'd be willing to bet that duel/saber only FFA is far more common then CTF. So that should be the game type supported the most. And there is the point that there are plenty of other games out there more suited for CTF style play, and very few out there suited for a sword fight type game. Why should those of us who favor dueling, give up the one and only game we have that let us do it, in favor of CTF... Especialy when CTF may not be that popular of a game style.

If the main problem with CTF is ammo, then go fix it yourself. That's not exactly a hard thing to do.

Kuroshi
05-08-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Vanor
If this isn't true, then please corect me.

The main problem with CTF now, is there isn't enough ammo on the maps for people to play effectively.

This makes a lot more sense. But wasn't this a problem before? I remember people commenting on it.

So it shouldn't be that hard for Raven or more to the point, a fan to add more ammo to the maps via the tools and then people could use that.

Good solution, except I don't believe you are allowed to distribute modified maps from the game. Or am I misinformed? Making new CTF maps would be a better idea, if that's true.

So basicly Raven will have to decide who gets what they want, CTF players or Duel players. If that's the case, then the decision should be based on what is played more.

I don't think that what is used more should get what they want. What if you applied that logic to LS vs DS? Your point on ammo is good enough alone.

[D12]SirBanshee
05-08-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by bellenberger
On servers that allowed guns, all the gun people did was get the repeater, find a group of saber people fighting, and blow them all away with a massive spam of secondary repeater fire. There was no counter if you had the lightsaber... I'm sorry that you can't get 50 kills on saber vs. gun servers. boo hoo.
[/B]

Obviously you have never played a "Real" guns game. The only people who do that are newbies. Real gunners fight guns vs guns game. Not saber vs guns.

Most gunners out there would respect a saber FFA and just either bypass it or join in with a saber. Being a gunner doesn't mean cheaping **** up.

The patch is a good patch in my opinion for the sabers. Maybe the backstab shouldn't have been tweaked though. I'm very pleased with the DFA change even if it receieved entirely too much attention. Lots of games incorporate a One Hit Kill move. Even JK1 contained a glitch that allowed a small chance of getting a One Hit Kill. Many of you are suggesting that strictly gunners adapt, my question is why didnt you strictly Saberists adapt?

But ammo for gunners is essential. Especically if in JK2 guns have a extremely fast rate of fire. Other games like CS, HL, TFC, and UT are usually faster but the ammo is abundant. Thats why levels like CO, and Ji-Oasis were very popular in JK1. It made for impressive gun fights. Not simply running around searching for ammo the entire game. Due to the slow speed of movement in JK2(compared to CS, JK1, and UT) getting ammo is very troublesome. No one wants to spend 2-3 minutes trying to get ammo just so they can slug it out with someone for less than 45 seconds.

Raven should've at least answered to why the guns weres changed by now. They explained the saber changes.

TheDarkSide
05-08-2002, 06:33 PM
SpiderAL - long time no see...when I last saw you, we were debating bunnyhops and fanboys :D For the record, what you and others were preaching wasn't a "just live with it and adapt" philosophy. It was a "hey this is an fps first and SW game second, go find yourself a saber only server if you don't like guns."

But I digress. You're last paragraph is dead on target. The patch is out there, and the more energy people spend clamoring about the patch is energy they could spend adapting to it. No matter what anyone thinks, Raven is not going to pull the patch back, so if you really don't like it that much, reload the old version and go about your merry way. The rest of us will adapt just fine without you.
You can email Raven directly with your displeasure, but if I were them I don't how much I'd listen. Many of the people whining about the new patch have come on here and implied that Raven did nothing but listen to the previous whiners and changed things to suit them. No mention or acknowledgement that they tested out their own patch, probably had dozens of meetings on what exactly to do, what to fix and how to best fix it. The general line of thinking here is that they just knee-jerked gave everything that the "whiners" wanted.
NEWSFLASH for you guys: They saw what was posted in the first "official patch request thread" and used those as suggestions. If you think Raven just read those things, and started just implementing stuff willy nilly to please them, you are gravely mistaken and on top of that very insulting.

TDS

WD_Rage
05-08-2002, 06:57 PM
AL! How ya been, bro? I haven't seen ya in a while.

Some quick notes:

And some advice for Gunners, get working on learning how to conserve ammo more efficiently, or just don't use the patch eh, you're starting to sound like a bunch of sabreists.

You can conserve ammo all you want. Conservation is no problem. My aim, and 50% of all the other competitive CTF teams, have excellent aim. Conservation isn't the problem, the problem is have not enough ammo to do our jobs. Defense needs ammo, mid-fielders need ammo, and attackers need ammo. Yes, both teams are in the same predicament, however, that's a lame excuse.

What a pile of shiat.

Raven is balancing the gameplay and all you whiners can talk about is how YOU WOULD DO IT BETTER

Let me share something with you. They know what they are doing. They are a reputable game developer. Just let them do their job and if you don't like it then send them an email or GO AWAY.

I'll see the real players online...

News flash, the game was already as balanced as it could be. The only things that really needed to be changed were the hit boxes and the actual bugs in the game. DFA was easy to spot and easy to get away from. Yes, people spammed it to no end, but you could tell when someone was about to do it and you could properly do what was needed.

As for Raven being a reputable game developer, yes they are. However, that does not make them infallable. Currently, Raven is bowing and catering to the saberists. Let me share something with you. If you paid for this game, I paid the same amount. I have the right to voice my opinion and have the aspect of the game that I prefer to be how I like it. One question: Who are the real players? The ones that use a saber and jump on a guns server and whine about being killed by a gun? I play JK2 as a sport, so I guess that does not make me a real player in your eyes. Bleh.

I'm sure you realize that if the other side prefers your style they will have the exact same problems. I know you liked your style of play, but if the patch changes game mechanics that's just the way things are. You fall back on the excuse that people that are new to the game are the problem, which is wrong. That is never the problem, and you know it.

Every competent team prefers the old style of gameplay. There's no question in it. We are all unanimous in this area, and yes, the problem IS the newbies that do not take the time to learn the game. The guns were cut because of the newbs that whined about getting killed by a gun on a gun server. That IS the problem, and you know it.

If you don't like the new patch, you can always play the old version, which I am sure you will. You will do this because you don't want to change, and there is no problem with that.

We have not upgraded our server, along with nearly every other CTF clan that has it's own dedicated server. Leagues are requiring 1.02 as well as 1.03 isn't suited for competitive play.

That's rather stubborn of you. I guess you'd rather be stuck with DFA spammers and drainwhores than adapt. You've just exlcuded youself from every patch in the future, unless they revert some changes which I doubt they will do. You'll also have to tolerate work arounds for the exploits (arm models) instead of enjoying all the models.

No, it's not stubborn of me or anyone else who is not upgrading their server. As for DFA spammers, it was so easy to spot and counter. I have no idea why people didn't realize that. Plus, in CTF, you're holding a gun, not a saber. Drain doesn't really come into play in FF Guns play, so we don't have a problem with that. As for excluding ourselves from future patches, we'll see. Raven will realize that more than saberists play this game, and they'll finally realize that we've all paid the same amount of money for it. FF Guns is what kept JK1 alive as long as it did. Raven would be stupid to ignore this. If they do, JK2 won't last very long. As for the work-arounds and exploits, our competition are honorable teams who need not use exploits. There's no problem there.

BTW the patch is going to do the exact opposite of stifle sompetitive play. It's going to make play MORE competitive. The spammers newbies will be forced to become BETTER players and if they don't they'll likely quit playing because they'll suck. Either way it means the ratio of good players out there will increase. How does THAT stifle competitive play?

How is it doing the exact opposite? Little ammo == no defense or offense. Yeah, that's competitive. The amount of good players does not increase competitive play. If you played JK1, look at this model. FF Gunners and FF Saberists were the best players in JK1. However, everyone that wasn't good were discouraged everytime they played the good players. Instead of trying harder to get good, they dropped the race and started playing underwater nf thermal dets. I can't help that they didn't want to try. The mass people don't want to try. They want to sign on and play. As for the reduced ammo making better players, skill will increase very, very minutely. Many of us are at the top of the game. It's not like JK1 where the learning curve was steep and it took literally years (for most) to get at the top. JK2 was straight forward. Many of us reached the top in a matter of weeks. How do I know we're at the top? We use every tool that has been handed us, and we've used them extremely well. Looking at the aspects of the game, there's not much more to learn in JK2.

How is this a problem? So you have a herder time defending the middle and your base, but so will your opponent. So look at it this way...It will be easier to get the flag and get it back. How is that nixing competitive play?

CTF isn't about how easy it is to get the flag, it's about how hard it is. It's about defending your flag, controling key points of the map, and controling the enemy's base. Easily getting the flag is no fun. Now CTF games will run into sudden death all the time, and it'll be who can keep the grabbing/capping cycle going the quickest and fastest. Bleh, that's not fun.

I have seen very few (probably none actually) arguments against this patch that are valid concerns for the gameplay.

Learn to accept change, it's a rather constant thing in life. You'll simply become a better, more diverse player if you can learn to adapt to new surroundings, evironments and game play styles.

Then you haven't been looking much at all. I appreciate you trying to uphold what you think should be, but there are more than saberists that play this game. I realize that you probably don't do much competitive gaming (by your comments, that's what it seems to me). So you really don't understand what CTF or TDM is about. Maybe you should load up T2 or UT and play some of their CTF (I sense a barrage of "Why don't you play those games" excuses that get old). Then you'll realize it's more than just who can cap the flag on every flag run.

I have no problem with change when it's thought out. I have a problem with changed that comes from half-baked ideas and from people that don't have the sense to look for saber only servers. Please do not preach to me about adapting to new surroundings, environments, and game play styles. I've done my fair share of it. I shouldn't have to adapt in this particular case due to the saberists in guns server, though (which I do know is the reason for the ammo cuts).

Vanor
05-08-2002, 07:05 PM
A question for you WD_Rage,

You seem to be a fairly reasonable person, and have put out well thought out reasons for your dislike of the 1.03 patch. I've never played CTF, and that seems to be your main game, so you seem to be the best one to address this question.

Is the main problem with the 1.03 patch the lack of ammo?

If so, I can see how that would harm CTF game play. I've never played CTF in JK2, I have played it some in other games, and spent 6 years in the military, so I know that ammo is vitaly imporant. When the stuff hits the fan, quite offten your best option is to lock-n-load, and then rock-n-roll.

If ammo shortage is the main problem, then why don't the serrious CTF players make new maps with more ammo? I mean if the big problem is a shortage of ammo, and not blance issues force/saber wise in the patch, then simply making new maps with more ammo would be a very effective and simple fix, no?

Dvlos
05-08-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by WD_Rage
In reality, there can be no balance. Bringing a saber to a gunfight is like bringing a knife to a gun fight. I don't care if the knife bearer is a Jedi (you forget the gunner is too), a Jedi cannot deflect EVERY shot or push EVERY projectile away from himself. If you don't believe me, why did Qui Gon and Obi Wan run from the destroyer droids in ep. 1.

Your a bit wrong. Your also not comparing apples to apples here. Obviously, in all the movies the JEDI had advantages over any troopers. With the exception of the droidekas because they had shields (not because they had guns).

However. It would be (perhaps, I dunno) kinda 2-dimensional if every HAD to play with sabers, that wasn't the spirit or guideline layed out by Jk1. To make this game compete with out shooters, IMO, they added guns that just don't exist in Star WArs. The only thing they can add and stay true to SW is, blasters, big blaster, small blasters, spears (ROTJ), grappling hook things (Bobba Fett in ROTJ), energy balls (Gungans), and thermal detonators (ROTJ and ESB).

BUT -

If that were the case, then anyone who picks up a gun would be outmatched, a trained Jedi can deflect and push everything.

That's what patches are about.. the balance. SOme people like guns, with force, or NF, others like sabers. Personally I enjoyed the creative weapons of JK1, don't really care for them in JK2, mainly because the saber combat is 200 times more interesting than the guns.

I would have loved to see some more creative guns in JK2, the flechette gun is dumb its just like UT and so is that sniper gun. I would have prefered to see something like a "droid arm" or some kind of heavy chain-gun type enormous gun, that reduces your movement and turning speed but deals tons of shots out. Or a stun gun, crap like that...

BUt what other people have said is valid. If you dont like guns, or getting shot in the back while sabering, your in the wrong server. FFA means anything goes, trip mines, det packs, FFA is all about the "never standing still" and racking up kills.

If you want to saber with class go to a duel server. ETc... There are 6 options and all the servers seem to have is CTF/FFA/Duel. In any case there are plenty of Saber Only servers out there.. so bitching about guns is stupid. And I also agree they made CTF fun pre-patch and a little more cumbersome post patch. CTF got hurt with this patch and so did Dark Jedi.

I think they should have made grip MORE powerful not less. Dark Rage should also be tweaked as should Protection. Dark rage should double DMG or something.

Considering Light Jedi can absorb, then Rage should be the counter (and probably is at the moment), to absorb abusers. But if someone is raged then Prot should be the answer, or Prot and push/speed something.. you know?

Kuroshi
05-08-2002, 07:17 PM
Originally posted by WD_Rage
One question: Who are the real players? The ones that use a saber and jump on a guns server and whine about being killed by a gun?

Nice loaded question. Obviously everyone is a real player, but you don't seem to think that people that use the lightsaber are real players. Or am I reading you wrong here?

Every competent team prefers the old style of gameplay. There's no question in it. We are all unanimous in this area, and yes, the problem IS the newbies that do not take the time to learn the game. The guns were cut because of the newbs that whined about getting killed by a gun on a gun server. That IS the problem, and you know it.

Essentially, you are discounting the argument of others by saying they aren't any good at the game. If they disagree with you, they aren't any good. That is not a way to discuss things.

I am big into guns myself, but I agree with the saber users on the secondary fire mode changes. They were just too powerful for what it cost. I would have made them weaker for the same amount of ammo, and I think the new ammo cost is a little too much, but I'm just going to play along with it.

CTF isn't about how easy it is to get the flag, it's about how hard it is.

Perhaps there are some that see CTF differently than you. Perhaps all your problems could be solved by maps with more ammo. You are into competitive play, so you have a team. Get your team together and make a map for your style of play. We could all do with more CTF maps.

Vanor
05-08-2002, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Kuroshi
This makes a lot more sense. But wasn't this a problem before? I remember people commenting on it.

I don't know if it was or not, I don't remember anyone commenting on it before, but I know that doesn't mean it wasn't :) If it was, then my idea would be a good way to fix what's wrong.

Good solution, except I don't believe you are allowed to distribute modified maps from the game. Or am I misinformed? Making new CTF maps would be a better idea, if that's true.

Good point, I didn't consider the fact that you couldn't simply edit a map Raven made and then put it out on the net... But I'm not sure if that's true or not. There have been maps here based on some SP levels, like the jedi training hall. If the lack of ammo is the main issue, then Raven could increase it on FFA/CTF maps, and CTF players could make new maps with more ammo on it. None of this would require a change to how sabers/force work to fix CTF.

I don't think that what is used more should get what they want. What if you applied that logic to LS vs DS? Your point on ammo is good enough alone.

Well that all depends on. When you have two groups who both want a feature to work differently, then you have to decide who gets what they want, provided that what the two groups want are mutaly excusive. Lets say that Duelist want saber fighting to be fairly lenthy and intense, with lots of blocking and such... So it feels like the movies. But on the other hand the CTF/FFA players want saber fighting to be quick and deadly, so they can get in as many frags as possable, or use it to defend/kill the capper before he gets away with the flag.

Lets say that Raven can't give both sides what they want... That the amount of coding to make sabers behave differently in a CTF flag then they do in a duel simply isn't feasable. Then who gets what they want? Many people asked Raven to make saber fights more like they were in SP, Raven did this and now people are upset about this. So assuming that SP type sabers in MP won't work for CTF types, but it's exactly what duelist want, who gets what they want? Now it's possable that Raven could try and make it so both sides are happy, and I think they might... By increasing the damage a touch, and reducing the blocking a touch.

But if they have to chose which side to apease, then shouldn't they do it based on what is more popular? I mean that's sorta the whole point behind a Republic/Democracy - give the majorty what they want. (yes that's rather simplistic, but it is somewhat true.)

Using my logic on DS vs LS... That doesn't really apply, as DS vs LS is just different applications of the same thing, the force. They don't need to be mutaly exclusive, and in fact they really can't be. If one side or the other was clearly supperior, that would be a problem. Duel vs CTF isn't the same thing. You don't have Duel games fighting against CTF games :), you do have DS'ers fighting LS'ers. I'm not sure if I'm making much sense here or not.

I'm not saying that Raven couldn't make both sides happy, but when it comes to saber fights, I don't see how they could. What both sides want, seems to be mutaly excusive... Fast and deadly vs lenthy and intense. If I'm wrong then so be it, I'd actualy rather be wrong in this case. I think Raven could make saber fighting something that both sides could live with... But then it comes a question of making it so both sides can live with it but neither side is happy. I don't have any idea what the split is for CTF/FFA vs Duel/Saber only FFA is, but if 75% of the people playing are in duel/saber only FFA's then wouldn't it make sense to make saber fights into what they want? I'm talking about sabers only here. I don't think you need to destroy CTF to make dueling what people want, but I don't think you can make sabers appealing to both sides.

TheDarkSide
05-08-2002, 07:40 PM
WD_rage:

I see your points, and respect your opinion, but by reading through several of your posts here, it would seem to me that you play on No Force CTF servers. While ammo is a key component of defense, offense and interdiction/midfielders, you make it seem like it is the ONLY component.

You've mentioned you only get 12 shots max with new patch on a repeater. Correction should be in order. You're talking about alt fire, right? If you're using the repeater primary fire you got PLENTY of ammo to take people down.

As a competitive team player, you should be well aware and able to use all modes of many weapons, and not be dependent on a single mode of fire for one weapon. And if the specific gametype can be TOTALLY ruined (your thinking) by altering one or two of the weapons alt-fire to require double ammo, then that specific gametype has problems for you to begin with.

In Bespin CTF for example, there are sooooo many ways to the defend the flag without sucking down ammo, I won't insult you by listing them out for you like you don't know them.

With regards to your UT ladder point, how many competitive UT CTF matches use the original 4 maps that came with the game? I'm going to guess not many. There are so many incredible CTF maps out there for those other games they don't have to.
If all you need to make you happy is more ammo for your alt-firing of the repeater....trust me more ammo will be forthcoming when the CTF maps start rolling in. In fact, Raven gave us the .map for Bespin CTF...all you'd have to do is drop some more ammo packs in there, recompile and distribute!

TDS

IronJedi Kaga
05-08-2002, 07:41 PM
Thanks for the info but there were plenty of questions that you left unanswered.

Why was saber throw added to NF saber fights?

Why was grip altered? As an HPB I can still push 95% of the people who gripped me. Its not that hard even when people can run and grip at the same time.

All the other changes seem fie, but those two are uncalled for IMO.

Kuroshi
05-08-2002, 07:42 PM
Vanor:
From your post I see that you understand what I mean but not what I said. LS/DS is much like WD_Rage's Duel/CTF because as you said, improving one can hurt the other. It is best to try to improve both at the same time, not just improving what people use the most (and therefore comment on most vocally). However, as we have mentioned already, we've come to a partial conclusion that adding more ammo to CTF overcomes the problems (for some, not all players) set in by the increased ammo usage of certain weapons' secondary fire.

Is there any reason why this solution isn't a good one, or something else that needs to be addressed?

WD_Rage
05-08-2002, 08:19 PM
Originally posted by Vanor
If this isn't true, then please corect me.

The main problem with CTF now, is there isn't enough ammo on the maps for people to play effectively.

That's part of it. In 1.02 the ammo was scarce, but it was playable. With this new patch, ammo consumption has doubled (and more than tripled on the HR); which leaves the gunners with even less ammo. The fix for that would be to restore the ammo consumption to that of 1.02.

As far as sabers go, I'm starting to think that it simply won't be possable to make both types of players happy. On the one hand you have the CTF/FFA types who want the sabers to be one hit kills or at least fast kills. On the other you have the duelist types who want their fights to last longer, and be more intense.

A long drawn out saber fight, won't work very well in a CTF game I'm sure.

Sabers are usually not used in CTF. If they are, it's as a last ditch weapon. The saber fixes really don't apply to us.

So basicly Raven will have to decide who gets what they want, CTF players or Duel players. If that's the case, then the decision should be based on what is played more. I'd be willing to bet that duel/saber only FFA is far more common then CTF. So that should be the game type supported the most. And there is the point that there are plenty of other games out there more suited for CTF style play, and very few out there suited for a sword fight type game. Why should those of us who favor dueling, give up the one and only game we have that let us do it, in favor of CTF... Especialy when CTF may not be that popular of a game style.

If the main problem with CTF is ammo, then go fix it yourself. That's not exactly a hard thing to do.

Raven doesn't have to decide anything. Sabers aren't used in CTF (unless otherwise specified, which I haven't seen), so there really isn't anything to decide. Saberists can have their tweaks, and gunners can have our gameplay. As for us fixing the maps, it is up to the leagues to decide that. We can fix anything we like (sort of), but the leagues have to use it. What's the use of training of a self-fixed map if it's not a legal tourney map?

Vanor
05-08-2002, 08:27 PM
*sigh* wrote up a lenthy post, but couldn't get it submited :(

Kuroshi,

I think I've come to realize what the problem is...

There are basicly 2 styles of playing in JK2, Dueling and FFA/CTF. This patch effected both styles, but in different ways. So at least some of the people who like/dislike the patch dislike it because it effects one style of play, and could care less about the other. I'm in that group I know... I play duel type games only so any nerfing done to guns doesn't really effect me.

I think idealy Raven will make JK2 suitable and enjoyable for most everyone who plays either style of game. I personaly hope they address the issues with guns in FFA/CTF maps in some way, so those people are happy with JK2. I think they did that for us saberist, it seems to me the majorty of duelist are quite happy with the patch, excluding those who's biggest whine is they can't spam DFA/Flipkick anymore.

Part of the problem in this debate is the two different groups tend to get confused... You have people who dislike the patch because it harms CTF, having their voice/opinion being thrown in with those who's major problem with the patch is they can't spam DFA or flipkick anymore.

For the CTF/FFA style... I can see what their beef is, nerfing the guns and limiting ammo is a problem. Skill aside, the more ammo the better to a point, so reducing the amount of ammo is a problem almost by default... Unless of course there was so much it was silly to begin with, which isn't the case in JK2.

For the Duelist style, most (80%+ I'd say) wanted saber fighting to be more like it was in SP. Raven did this, and now some people are unhappy about it.

Here's the rub as I see it... When the two styles start to mix. Since I don't play with guns hardly ever I don't care much what they do with them. So if they were to address the issue and make guns like they were once again, I would be fine with that. I have to agree that anyone who pops on a true FFA server, and whines about being shot is being silly. That isn't to say that gun vs saber balance is perfict, but I don't think it was really all that bad.

The problem I see is this. Making changes in how Saber fighting works to appease the CTF types, is doing harm to the duelist players. I honestly don't think that Raven can make sabers work in such a way that both sides will be really happy with them. One the one hand you have the duelist who wants saber fights to be lenthy and intense. On the other you have people who want sabers to be quick and deadly. I just don't see where the middle road between those would be, that both sides would be happy with. If it could be done, then I'd be all for that.

I just wouldn't want to see the duelist have to give up the SP type saber fighting they asked for, for a handfull of FFA types who use the saber now and again.

Does that make more sense?

Vanor
05-08-2002, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by WD_Rage
Raven doesn't have to decide anything. Sabers aren't used in CTF (unless otherwise specified, which I haven't seen), so there really isn't anything to decide. Saberists can have their tweaks, and gunners can have our gameplay. As for us fixing the maps, it is up to the leagues to decide that. We can fix anything we like (sort of), but the leagues have to use it. What's the use of training of a self-fixed map if it's not a legal tourney map?

Wouldn't it be easier for the leagues to swich over to the new patch, so the people in the leagues who want to do both dueling and CTF can play with the 1.03 patch, and make new maps that have the ammo CTF needs?

I have to admit I don't understand why Raven changed the guns like they did... But it seems to me it would be easier in the long run to simply make maps that work right, then to not use the patch.

mIRC
05-08-2002, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by ChangKhan[RAVEN]


Medium Stance:
Medium was not meant to be the whirling dervish style, so it was made so that, if you do the same exact move over and over again, you cannot chain as many attacks as if you mix it up a little. "Spinning top" fighters should use fast style. This is the *only* change to medium style.



So Raven encourages "spinning top" fighters?

This is truely saddening.

Jellybelly
05-08-2002, 09:21 PM
Thank's for the info ChangKhan. :)

I made this post in another thread but NewBJedi asked me to move it here, so I did so with some modifications.

First of all...massive thank's to all at Raven for putting together this patch for us.
It's nice to know they are interested in hearing us customers out, and furthermore actually release patches based on our requests.
Many developers don't even bother to do any of this...so it's most fortunate that the makers of such a great game care enough to do this.

Thank's Raven, nice work. :)

Ok...about the patch...

I tried it (only the sabercombat mind You), and in my view it feels like the sabercombat of the singleplayer game indeed.
Noticing a lot of views regarding this game and this patch, I think that NewBJedi's general suggestion might be a quite a good way to settle most of (if not all) of this debate.

If Raven where to make as many game options as possible serverside options, then people could tailor the game according to their specific need.
This way the Quakefraggers, the Star Wars purists...and just about everyone in between...can get their full share of fun from this excellent game.

I don't know the amount of work this would require on Ravens behalf...but maybe it would still be less work in the long run than trying to trim the game according to public demands with patch after patch.

Most options that I think would contribute to the multiplayer game as serverside options (apart from those mentioned by NewBJedi), seems to already be incuded in the single player game. They where included in the "Ladder.txt" readme file that came with "The Ladder" map.

I tried them out in that very map and here's my feedback on it:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

g_saberautoblocking

1 = On (default)
0 = Off (when off bind +block to key)

The above is in my opinion one of the most important...as it enables the block function (still being automatic in it's moves) to be manually triggered on and off by pressing a key.

As You can't execute an attack while pressing the block key, it balances the offense and defense aspects of the saber combat quite well.

When triggered, the blocking function seems to work pretty much the same way as the fully automatic block...i.e. You need to roughly face the direction of the opponents attack to make a successful block.

It also seemed to feature a chance of knocking the saber out of the opponents (in this case bots) hand...this is not included in the default setting (autoblocking on).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

g_saberautoaim

1 = On (default)
0 = Off

This is an interesting function.

"The Ladder.txt" readme figures this might make any automatically executed moves (for example the backstab of the light mode) manually controlled. However, I couldn't tell any difference with the backstab turning this funtion off, so I can't say for sure.

What I did find however, was this:

Turning this function off (setting it to 0), seems to enable the "random" playstyle of the pre-patch multiplayer saber combat.

For example...standing completely still and hitting primary attack with this function off, will result in a series of slashes in random directions (just like in former multiplayer saber combat). However, doing the above with this function turned on...will result in the exact same slash time after time.

If my guess is correct, this could be the function to use if You would want to switch between the new combat style and the pre-patch multiplayer one.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

g_sabermovespeed

1 = Normal
<1 = Slower
>1 = Faster

This changes how fast You can move while attacking with the saber.

Slowing this down will give a more "movie" feel to it. A real goodie for the "Star Wars" purists out there. No more highspeed backpedaling while slashing like crazy at the same time.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

g_saberanimspeed

1 = Normal
<1 = Slower
>1 = Faster

This changes the speed of the saberanimations (slashes etc). Also a very useful tool for tailoring Your prefered type of combat.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

g_saberrealisticcombat

0 = Off (default)
1 (or more) = On

Edited Sorry guys, I think I got this wrong the first time, here's what it seems to do:

Setting it on 1 seems to turn on enable a dismemberment feature (at least in singleplayer) and perhaps increase damage made by the saber as well. Increasing the value ( to more then 1), seems to increase the damage made by the sabers, thus also increasing their dismemberment power (i.e. easier and more dismemberments).

Also...DerthNader mentioned in a post after this one that the g_dismember and cg_dismember features now worked on servers. I'm sorry I didn't have time to test this, but if there is a possibility to enable serverside dismemberment in full (all bodyparts chopping), then that is very nice indeed.

The slow motion death feature would be also great as a serverside option well. If not else, it might at least be possible to implement as Duel server only option. /Edited

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ok...the above are the (to me) known parameters that in my opinion would be very useful to saber gameplay as serverside options. The info is based on the "Ladder.txt" readme included in "The Ladder" map.

I think they would contribute a great deal to an already great game...especially in terms of flexibility and usability.
With possibilities to tailor Your servers saber combat, more people are bound to be content with the possibilities, and the games lifespan would increase as well. Maybe this would help settle the discussion of how the saber gameplay "should" be?

Not wanting to ask too much of Raven, I still think the way for them to go (to satisfy as many customers as possible and improve an already great product), is to focus on implementing as many serverside multiplayer gameplay options as possible.

As I mentioned before, although it might take some work and effort to do this on Ravens behalf now...I still think it would be easier for them in the long run...instead of trying to please as many as possible with further "static" patches.
They could put in the options in the multiplayer game, and then it would be up to the community to use the options given to them.

With massive serverside options available, further complaints and/or suggestions would not be so much directed to Raven, as to the admins of the gameservers.

My humble suggestion is thus along the lines of NewBJedi's:
Focus on implementing as many gameplay related serverside options as You possibly can in the next patch.
You can keep the current "default" game setup, but put the options in there...and then let the server admins do the gametweaking job for You.

Anyways...apologies if I'm talking about stuff that is not possible (for technical reasons for example), or if I'm just asking too much. Rest assure, I think this is an excellent game.
I'm grateful to Raven for making it in the first place and furthermore for listening to their customers and making a serious effort to meet their requests in the patch they just released.

Thank's Raven...most appreciated.

Take care all :)

Jellybelly

PS Sorry for long text.

DerthNader
05-08-2002, 10:00 PM
I play & admin mostly duel so I'll confine my feed back with that in mind:

1. THANKS for all the hard work on the patch. Much appreciated.

2. THANKS for the linux server. No lag monkey MOHAA here :)

3. Sabre duels now last longer & seem much more evenly balanced.

4. The force balancing you have done is great. Drain/ lightning whoring no longer an issue. In fact it's good to see them used in the game now.

5. g_dismember / cg_dismember work great without crashing the server - w00t! :)

6. Force / weapon disabling now works a treat.

7. Nice combos available now.

8. Double tap for kick not an issue. An improvement actually. Before I found myself sometimes kicking someone for a kill & winning by mistake.

9. DFA now 'feels right' (big hit + big risk). No "aww comeon, there's no way I should have died from that I was miles away!" feeling.

10. I never fail to be staggered by the "TIHS SUXX00rs man!!!11" minority. Maybee when their balls drop they'll calm down ;)

Thanks again.

Nill the Mean
05-08-2002, 10:02 PM
I HAVE THE ANSWER!

Listen carefully now... If they do this in the next patch it will totally own.
1. Tone down saber clashing frequency during attack animations.
2. Up the damage on ALL saber attacks (apart from backstab, which needs a nerf)
3. Make the blocking radius more narrow.
4. Erm... I forgot. I'll post this later.
5. Less sparks when sabers clash.
6. ADD FISTS

Nill the Mean
05-08-2002, 10:11 PM
Sorry, I still think my ideas are about a million times better.
Just read the simple ideas I put down there and try to imagine it a bit in practice. Solves most of the "problems" now doesn't it? We need to opt for these to be changed in the next patch.

And we need fists! ARG!

WD Gambit
05-08-2002, 10:20 PM
iIagree with just about everything rage has said, this patch in a nut shell hurts high skill lvl gaming lets see the two best guns nerfed down to 1 shot for 25 ammo i mean i ran out of ammo playing vs another player at my skill lvl quite quickly at 25 per shot its going to make this game all about camping on ammo. Of course all the newbies praise this patch because saber battles are more "jedi like" or because it got rid of the dreaded DFA move that was never a problem bc/ it was so easy to avoid. raven if you want to anger all the people that actully are competitive gamers just do nothing because your going get from us what your giving us now Nothing.

NewBJedi
05-08-2002, 10:24 PM
I erased my other suggestion - Jellybelly is 100% correct:

The ultimate solution is to simply make it all server side.

If the in-game browser fits itself to allow filtering of all the admin-options that change game play - doesn't have to specific numbers, could be greater or less than, than it would easy to give admin options.

People can also use rulesets in ASE and Gamespy to filter for exact servers they want.

Even the force nerfing/beefing-up doesn't have to be necessarily a complicated and specific matter - if that's too much of a problem.

There could be a g_specificforcerank type rule.

That would mean specific forces for light and dark could be adjusted.

Actually that would solve the problem - add more forcerank rulesets that adjust the different kinds of forces - probably combine them into light and dark and neutral.

g_lightforce 0-5 - Absorb, heal, mindtrick, etc
g_darkforce 0-5 Dark rage, grip, drain, etc.
g_neutralforce 0-5 - all other forces.

Also, say they wanted kick to be a part of the force:

g_forcekick 1 or 0

1 = it uses up and requires force.
0 = like it is now.

For weapon guys - for example:

g_ammorespawn 0-5
g_weaponsrespawn 0-5

Saberists:

g_newsaber 1 0

1 = New SP style in MP saber.
0 = Old MP style saber.

g_saberblock 0-5 (controls the amount of saber auto-blocking.)

This would alleviate the dev team from being responsible for constantly tweaking the game - and allow admins and the community (by popularity of the servers) to decide what options are best.

If a handful of people enjoy certain settings, so be it and let them run their server and enjoy the game. Make the defaults in the middle, and the admins change the rules, from that point on.

Sure dev can work on performance issues, cheats, bugs, etc, but I suggest simply replacing all future 'gameplay tweaks' with server-side (client filterable) options.

The most simple and easy solution.

Kiell_Randor
05-08-2002, 10:28 PM
First of all Raven, thank you for the effort obviously put into this patch. It offers some improvements over the original version of the game.

That said however, there are some major problems that I feel need to be addressed. I can make NO comment regarding any changes made to the guns side of thing, as I am leader of a sabers only 'clan'.

Heavy Stance: First of all, you got heavy stance right! It is finally well balanced. The special is harder to do, and the attacks themselves do a more reasonable amount of damage.

Medium Stance: Removing the continous spin capabilities was a very good move. The stance plays more like it should be now. The BIG problem: the 'backstab' move in medium is a guaranteed one-hit kill. We tested it this afternoon, and someone with 100 health and 150 shields died in one shot every time.

Light: Too fast. It is unbalanced now. The original speed of the style was about right, but now the player moves around like a ferret on crack. Slow it down to something akin to its original speed please!!

Blocking: The increase in blocking was a very nice move. However, simultaneously decreasing damage was a very bad move. What you effectively did was, make any fight take forever. Two people who are at completely different skill levels can still take literally minutes to finish a duel. And then when fighting multiple opponents, all hope is lost.

It used to be that if you were _good_ you could take on 2, 3, 4 people at once with a hope of winning. A few very well executed moves could even the score up quickly. Now no matter how many well executed moves you do, they will eventually wear you down.

If you kept the increased blocking, but upped the damage a LOT, you could make it so that if one person is far more skilled, they can win quickly. If the two opponents are even, it will make for a much longer battle than pre-patch. This is how it should be.

Here's crossing our fingers for some life back into the game for saber fighting!

Nill the Mean
05-08-2002, 10:30 PM
That with so many variables it would be impossible to find the type of game you want. There aren't enough servers to be able to have that much choice yet.

*in response to JellyBelly & NewBJedi*

WD_Rage
05-08-2002, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by TheDarkSide
I see your points, and respect your opinion, but by reading through several of your posts here, it would seem to me that you play on No Force CTF servers. While ammo is a key component of defense, offense and interdiction/midfielders, you make it seem like it is the ONLY component.

No, I play FF CTF. You're right, though, there are more components to CTF, however, I use defense as an example. I'm lazy by nature, and including all positions (which I have in other posts and in this one) is just more for me to type. Does my laziness effect my playing? No.

You've mentioned you only get 12 shots max with new patch on a repeater. Correction should be in order. You're talking about alt fire, right? If you're using the repeater primary fire you got PLENTY of ammo to take people down.

Primary on the HR is inaccurate. It is better for laying down supressive fire than stopping a flag carrier. When you're stopping a flag carrier, accuracy is crucial, and you have better accuracy with secondary than with primary.

As a competitive team player, you should be well aware and able to use all modes of many weapons, and not be dependent on a single mode of fire for one weapon. And if the specific gametype can be TOTALLY ruined (your thinking) by altering one or two of the weapons alt-fire to require double ammo, then that specific gametype has problems for you to begin with.

In Bespin CTF for example, there are sooooo many ways to the defend the flag without sucking down ammo, I won't insult you by listing them out for you like you don't know them.

I use any and all weapons that I can get my hands on. The HR and RL, unfortunately, appear consistantly on CTF maps. I say unfortunately because I like having the golan in my arsenal. When the map limits you to what weapons you have to use, you have to use that weapon. In my JK2 CTF experience, every tournament or ladder match has been played in Yavin, Imperial, and Bespin. Two of those maps contain the HR and RL as the only heavy weapons. Plus, the HR had the highest increase in ammo spendage (from 8 to 25). The Golan's was increased from 5 to 15, if I'm not mistaken. These two weapons use the same type of ammo. All that to say I use whatever weapon I can use. I use the HR as my primary example because of the more than tripled ammo usage.

As for defending the flag, it is better to keep the oposing team as far from the flag as possible. That is just good defense. Yes, there are many ways of defending the flag in Bespin, however, nearly all of them require the oposing force to be at the flag stand. Defending the flag is defending the flag, yes, but it's better to keep the oposing team as far from your flag as possible. That requires ammo and guns that do not consume huge amounts of ammo.

With regards to your UT ladder point, how many competitive UT CTF matches use the original 4 maps that came with the game? I'm going to guess not many. There are so many incredible CTF maps out there for those other games they don't have to.

To be honest, I've never play UT for a competitive league. My experience with UT has been strictly public servers, however, I used UT as an example because of it's excellent CTF gameplay. I can, however, answer your question in Tribes 2 terms. It took about 6-8 months before user-made maps were legal maps in some leagues. I say some because my experience is limited to just a few in my T2 carrier.


If all you need to make you happy is more ammo for your alt-firing of the repeater....trust me more ammo will be forthcoming when the CTF maps start rolling in. In fact, Raven gave us the .map for Bespin CTF...all you'd have to do is drop some more ammo packs in there, recompile and distribute!

Unfortunately, increased ammo on the maps will not completely solve the issue. The ammo respawn rate is rather slow. In a game with 10+ players, ammo will go pretty fast and would most likely be spent in 1/4 the time it takes for ammo to respawn.

The quickest fix would be to just set the ammo consumption back to it's original state.

Originally posted by Kuroshi
Nice loaded question. Obviously everyone is a real player, but you don't seem to think that people that use the lightsaber are real players. Or am I reading you wrong here?

First off, please do not take what I say out of conext (as it appears that you are). I was asking the question to dansolo that said "I'll see the real players online...". It was a question directly asked to him because aparently I'm not a real player according to his standards.

I have said it many times (both in this thread and in others), I have no problem with saberists. I have no problems with the saber issues that this patch fixed. I personally found only the tweaking of drain/heal (not to the extreme Raven took it, however) and the hit box to be needed. DFA was very easy to notice and prepare for. Why others couldn't spot it I have no idea. I do, however, have problems with the saberists that enter a FFA/TDM server that allows guns, expects everyone to use a saber, and complains when they die by a gun. Never, ever, have I dissed a saberist that understands entering a gun server could mean their death to a gun, but usually, these people are smarter and tend to gravitate towards the saber only servers.

Essentially, you are discounting the argument of others by saying they aren't any good at the game. If they disagree with you, they aren't any good. That is not a way to discuss things.

Firstly, look at the ones that I accused of not being any good. They are the ones that rejoice that the guns were nerfed so that they can join in on FFA/TDM servers that allow guns and begin to saber. Your statement that I accuse those who disagree with me as being people who are not any good is completely and totally untrue. 95% of the time I can tell who knows what they are talking about and who doesn't. It is to those who have no idea what they are talking about that I get upset with. Coming into a discussion without full knowledge of the topic is no way to discuss things either. I'm accusing you of anything, btw. I'm just making a statement to the general public.

I am big into guns myself, but I agree with the saber users on the secondary fire mode changes. They were just too powerful for what it cost. I would have made them weaker for the same amount of ammo, and I think the new ammo cost is a little too much, but I'm just going to play along with it.

But the saber users who made this complaint are the ones that do not have the common sense to choose a saber only server. It is these people that I have a problem with, as I stated earlier, and for which I have no sympathy for. If saberists want to play with gunners, then they need to understand and expect to be killed by a gun.

Perhaps there are some that see CTF differently than you. Perhaps all your problems could be solved by maps with more ammo. You are into competitive play, so you have a team. Get your team together and make a map for your style of play. We could all do with more CTF maps.

Again, please do not take what I say out of context. If you would have included the trailing sentence, you would have adequately been informed of what CTF is about. And no, all our problems would not be solved by adding more ammo to the map. I explained this earlier in my post. As for building a map, that's all well and good. Unfortunately, it is up to the leagues to decide which maps are used and which ones are not.

Originally posted by Dvlos
Your a bit wrong. Your also not comparing apples to apples here. Obviously, in all the movies the JEDI had advantages over any troopers. With the exception of the droidekas because they had shields (not because they had guns).

I'll have to watch that part again, but I believe one of them says they will not last long against the droidekas. Also, the troopers in the movies were not Jedi's, as nearly every gun toting player is in JK2. The troopers were idiots who couldn't hit anything.

However. It would be (perhaps, I dunno) kinda 2-dimensional if every HAD to play with sabers, that wasn't the spirit or guideline layed out by Jk1. To make this game compete with out shooters, IMO, they added guns that just don't exist in Star WArs. The only thing they can add and stay true to SW is, blasters, big blaster, small blasters, spears (ROTJ), grappling hook things (Bobba Fett in ROTJ), energy balls (Gungans), and thermal detonators (ROTJ and ESB).

If everything that showed up in the games were limited to what appears in the movies, we'd have some pretty boring games. I've often used the argument that if the emperor hadn't used lightning in RotJ, people would say lightning was un-Star Wars.

BUT -

If that were the case, then anyone who picks up a gun would be outmatched, a trained Jedi can deflect and push everything.

If Jedi's could do everything and be invincible, the game would be pretty boring as well. Jedi's aren't God, they have their faults and weeknesses just like everyone else. Read the Hand of Thrawn series. You'll find something in the ending that will surprise you about Jedi (mainly, they can't deflect blaster fire forever).

That's what patches are about.. the balance. SOme people like guns, with force, or NF, others like sabers. Personally I enjoyed the creative weapons of JK1, don't really care for them in JK2, mainly because the saber combat is 200 times more interesting than the guns.

The weapons were already balanced, sorry to say. They were only "tweaked" because saberists were joining FFA/TDM servers that allowed guns and were getting blasted. In CTF, I've had saberists pull my gun, push me down, and some other clever attacks against a gunner. I killed them 98% of the time, but at least they were trying. Had I not had the store of weapons I carry, the kill ratio would have been more 50/50.

*thought strikes* Ooh! Perhaps I can say what the saberists have been saying about gunners since this patch. Maybe the saberists needed to try harder to get better. Better aim and better tactics.........Hmmmm.......just maybe.

As for saber combat being 200 times more interesting than guns, that's your opinion. I'd rather watch paint dry than watch two lighties dueling while I stand in line to play.

I would have loved to see some more creative guns in JK2, the flechette gun is dumb its just like UT and so is that sniper gun. I would have prefered to see something like a "droid arm" or some kind of heavy chain-gun type enormous gun, that reduces your movement and turning speed but deals tons of shots out. Or a stun gun, crap like that...

Technically, the fletchet isn't just like it is in UT. The secondary fire in UT is one ball that doesn't bounce. It explodes on impact. As for the sniper rifle, it's nothing like it is in UT. JK2's a pea shooter, unless you're looking through a scope. The sniper rifle in UT kept its power despite looking through the scope or not.

I'm all for having creative weapons, however, that's not what this discussion is about.

BUt what other people have said is valid. If you dont like guns, or getting shot in the back while sabering, your in the wrong server. FFA means anything goes, trip mines, det packs, FFA is all about the "never standing still" and racking up kills.

If you want to saber with class go to a duel server. ETc... There are 6 options and all the servers seem to have is CTF/FFA/Duel. In any case there are plenty of Saber Only servers out there.. so bitching about guns is stupid. And I also agree they made CTF fun pre-patch and a little more cumbersome post patch. CTF got hurt with this patch and so did Dark Jedi.

I think they should have made grip MORE powerful not less. Dark Rage should also be tweaked as should Protection. Dark rage should double DMG or something.

Considering Light Jedi can absorb, then Rage should be the counter (and probably is at the moment), to absorb abusers. But if someone is raged then Prot should be the answer, or Prot and push/speed something.. you know?

Amen. Grip was weak to begin with. Range was small, and damage was even smaller. The answer to Dark Rage is grip. That way you can keep the dark raged at bay until it wears off. Then all you gotta do is slash.

I apologize for the length of this post. This will probably be my last since I'm practically saying the same thing over and over and over again.

In short, the ideal solution:

Revert the patch. Build a new patch that gives the saberists the tweaks they want and gives the gunners what they want.

Solo4114
05-08-2002, 11:26 PM
I've posted this elsewhere, but I'll post it here too. Although from now on, in patches where people are complaining, I'll just refer them to this post.

First off, thanks Raven. You've earned a loyal customer in me. You paid attention to what the fans wanted, and gave it to 'em. You balanced the game, and made it more fun (for me at least).

I like the patch so far. I haven't played as a darkside jedi yet, but as a lightside jedi, it's quite well balanced, I think. A lot of people don't like the patch though. I'm going to go through and explain why I feel that the patch has helped gameplay, at least for a guy like me who prefers to use the sabre.

1.) Nerfing of Drain and Heal

Now, I haven't conducted extensive testing of this, I'll admit, but it seems that nerfing both is valid. Maybe they nerfed drain too much, but as a lightside jedi, I really don't mind not being able to heal 50% health with 25% force at level three. I think it's pretty balanced, personally. Drain doesn't suck force power nearly as fast, and heal doesn't give you back inordinate amounts of health for very little mana the way it did. This makes for less abuse of force powers. We'll get into defining abuse later on.

2.) Absorb is invisible

This was absolutely necessary as a change. With the old blue glow on, absorb was totally useless. really. Especially with drain being so highly powered. Sure, you could turn it on immediately after the enemy attacked you with drain or lightning or grip, but they'd still get those few seconds of drain off of you (which, under the old way, meant you were down to at least 50% mana when you turned on absorb), or could hoist you up in the air using grip or what have you. Mostly, in 1.02, I'd only use absorb as a warning sign to say "Your mind tricks will not work on me, boy." Unfortunately, this meant that darksiders could simply wait until my force was drained, and could then just grip and drop me.

As said elsewhere by someone other than myself, you don't know when a drain attack is coming, so you shouldn't know when an absorb defense is turned on. Fair's fair.

3.) Guns being nerfed

Personally, I never played with guns much. I'm just more into sabres really. No DL-44 pistol, so guns leave much to be desired, for me. ;)

I'll say this. I tried the patch out for the first time on a server I started, playing an FFA game. I loaded bots that use guns and bots that use sabres and force. And I joined in as a sabre/force user. Wanna know what happened? The solo bot, one that's been configured to avoid sabres and use guns, owned everyone else. When I could FIND the damn bot, I still could hold my own, but on an FFA server, at least as far as the bots were concerned, the guns still could do major damage.

I did try using the repeater and in alt-fire mode, managed to take out three bots in a matter of about three seconds, so if it is nerfed at all, I couldn't really notice.

Besides, even if they are nerfed, you can still probably find a cluster of dueling jedis and lob a few splash-damage shots into them.

4.) Blocking

Blocking makes the game more intricate and require a bit more thought. This notion that you had to have skill to be good with 1.02 is only partially true. From what I saw, you had to do the following to be good at 1.02:

- You had to know the moves
- You had to know how to maneuver
- You had to know how to time both your swinging and your running, so as to make sure you hit the other guy.

In 1.02 you had no chance to block. Now you do. In the new patch, 1.03, you have to know the following to be good:

- You still have to have know the moves
- You still have to know how to maneuver
- You still have to know how to time your swings so as to hit

BUT, with 1.03, you ALSO have to know how to block. Yes, you can sit there and block continually and hope the other guy burns to death on your sabre. If he does that, whose fault is that? If you're in battle and you simply stand still and let a guy throw himself on your sword, did you kill him, or did he kill himself? For the record, you still can maneuver to a position where the enemy isn't guarding. Try rolling, jumping, sidestepping, etc. You know what you also might try doing? BLOCKING. For a change of pace, let the other guy attack YOU, then when you've blocked him, attack HIM. I've played on servers recently, and have seen people be parried actually. They try a series of swings, and when you time your swing right, it seemed that you could parry their blow, knocking their blade aside and leaving them open for a second so you could deliver a hit.

Sabre fighting now requires more thought from BOTH parties. Yes, you can just stand still and block the other guy while he charges at you slowly eating away his own health. But if you're the other guy, DON'T RUN UP AGAINST THE SABRE. Instead, try attacking, and counterattacking. If you're blocked, try a different angle of attack. Remember, the other guy can stand there and block, but so can you. Eventually, someone has to make a move, and that's where PARRIES come in. You can block forever, but unless your opponent is stupid enough to skewer himself on your sabre, you still aren't doing any damage to him.

Now, with blocking added, and parries implemented, you have to wait for openings in your opponents' defense. You have to time your counterattacks so as to knock your opponent out of position. And you have to know how to attack your opponent where he isn't protecting himself.

This is all what we call skill. It requires thought, an understanding of tactics, and an understanding of your own capabilities. In addition, you have to understand the MIND of your opponent. Is he the kind of guy who's going to charge at you, swinging blindly with light stance? Is he going to wait for an opening and try to cleave you in two with heavy stance? The ability to defend yourself now means that both you and your opponent engage in battle not just in terms of who can click the keys fastest, or who knows X number of moves, but also who can win the psychological battle. Who knows themself and knows their enemy better. THAT is true skill. Not just who can time a heavy stance swing best.

5.) Stance tweaks

a.) Light stance

Light stance is now truly light. As in nimble and quick. It's not simply "weak". Light stance in 1.02 was worthless. Since you couldn't really block with it, and you couldn't really dish out much damage with it, it served no purpose. Ergo, people would use medium or heavy stance. Now that light stance is the best DEFENSIVE stance, it has a real function. You use light stance while on defense, and then switch to medium or heavy when you want to go on O. This is a balanced change, and makes this not simply the worst stance, but rather, a stance that accomplishes a different goal than the others. It is now another tool available to players, not simply the worst stance in the game. Also, according to Raven, light stance's own lunge move has been nerfed itself. In some ways then, light stance has been further underpowered. No complaints here.

b.) Medium stance

Medium stance, according to Raven, hasn't really been tweaked that much. What they did with medium stance was to make it so that you couldn't spam a single move over and over again. Instead, you can only get chains of moves if you continually change your direction. This accomplishes two feats: (1) it again adds more true skill to the game. Instead of simply being able to repeadedly do one move, you now have to actually put some thought into moves. At least moreso than you used to. (2) it makes for a more interesting and intricate game. Try out different combos. See how many moves you can chain together. Figure out how certain combos will help you best. In my mind, this makes the game more fun. Regardless, it ain't much of a change anyway. So even if you don't like it, it really doesn't HURT the game any.

c.) Heavy stance

Heavy stance is now able to truly chain moves together. In addition, its damage potential has been reduced (I believe). It is no longer the best stance in the game. Again, much like light stance, it is simply another tool available to the player.

Personally, I never had much use for heavy stance, even in 1.02. It was too slow for my tastes. I prefer faster gameplay, and the ability to react quickly to changes in battle. Heavy stance reduces your reaction speed (by virtue of you taking a while to recover from a previous move), and while it dealt out a hell of a lot of damage, it was just too slow for me to use in the kind of fighting I prefer to do. I DID try the method of timing heavy swings while charging and backing up in 1.02 and found that to be a fairly effective way to score kills. It was also, however, extremely boring, and one of the primary factors that led to my deleting the game from my hard drive and not playing it any more, once I'd beaten SP. Now the game is back on my drive, because heavy stance is just another stance, not the uber-stance.

It can still be useful, though. I've gotten into sabre locks with opponents, and knocked an opponent to the ground, and wished I'd bothered to spend points on heavy stance. A swift overhead chop at that moment would have finished the enemy off quickly, instead of my having to spend another few minutes slashing away at them with medium stance.

Heavy is not useless now. It has its uses, the uses have just changed. Instead of being the stance of choice, it is now simply a choice of stance. This is what we call...say it with me now...GAME BALANCE. No single stance can always beat another stance. Nor can the use of a single stance beat any opponent you encounter. In lightsabre battles now, you actually have to switch stances to accomplish different ends. This is the end result of the changes to the stances.

Want to defend? Use light stance.
Want to to finish off your opponent, or force an opponent to retreat momentarily? Use heavy stance.
Want to be able to react and respond quickly to an attack, while not sacrificing ALL of your defense, and ALL of your offense? Use medium stance.

Want to own the competition? USE ALL THREE STANCES.

6.) DFA tweaks

I never noticed DFA being that much trouble, since I didn't play much on FFA servers where it seemed to cause the most trouble. There were, however, NUMEROUS posts on this forum about the problems with DFA. There were complaints about people using it exclusively; the fact that if you ran BY an enemy who'd used it you'd still die; the fact that you could turn mid-move, and turn even after you'd finished the move; and the fact that there really was no "moment of vulnerability" to the move, given that you could still be killed by a sabre buried in the ground, even if you approached from the side.

Therefore, nerfing and fixing DFA abuse was absolutely a welcome change, to me at least. Though I hadn't encountered abuse of DFA on servers, I sure wouldn't have enjoyed playing against people who did that. Even if the move was beatable/avoidable, it would've gotten intensely BORING after a while. Being a sabre guy, I like to have duels, even on FFA servers. I like having a drawn-out battle with a skilled opponent. I like having to adapt tactics, and try new strategies. If an opponent simply uses the same move over and over and over again, I get bored with them, even if I'm winning. That's what I consider abuse of a move. If you use the same technique, move, or force power again and again, I consider it abuse. That's my definition for in-game abuse. If you disagree with that definition, go for it. I don't really care much one way or the other.

DFA hasn't even been nerfed all that much. Read the official post by ChangKhan. He'll explain how to perform the move. Then, if you want to do it well, PRACTICE IT. The move always SHOULD have had a moment where you were left vulnerable, since it was a one-shot-one-kill move in the first place. There SHOULD be MAJOR costs associated with executing that move since, if you were successful, there was a HUGE benefit. For those of you who wish you could still spam DFA, and are going to leave the game because you can't, personally, I don't care. You won't be missed as far as I'm concerned.

I think what Raven has done is to balance what had previously been an unbalanced game. Could they have maybe done it better, subtly? Sure. Costs for force powers could've been tweaked maybe, certain fixes could've been implemented better maybe, who knows. The biggest problem that I see is that the patch wasn't actually an add-on. By this, I mean that the patch is TRULY a patch. It patches OVER the existing version, removing 1.02 and its play mechanics from sight, in a sense. An add-on, whereby people could still choose to play in either 1.02 or 1.03 mode would have made everyone happy, I think. Would this have been feasible? Who knows. Maybe doing so would've screwed with the netcode. Maybe doing so would've made the game inoperable. Maybe it would've made tech support harder. I have no idea. For whatever reason, Raven decided to fundamentally change the gameplay mechanics in a way that I happen to support, but a lot of people seem to dislike. I think, however, that they did this because they don't really NEED to make it a server side option. That option actually still exists, sort of. Read on to find out more.

Those of you who dislike 1.03, I have this advice to give:

1.) If you find you're getting your ass kicked using the same tactics from 1.02, change your tactics. If you want to practice your tactics, I recommend either dueling with bots, or replaying the SP game. Since MP is now essentially like SP (how it always SHOULD have been, in my opinion), playing SP would be great practice for the new 1.03 style of play. Try downloading that ladder level, where you play against larger and larger waves of reborn. I'll bet just doing that will improve your skills at the 1.03 style of play pretty damn quickly. I think if you give it a chance, you'll find that the new MP plays just like SP did. Remember how much fun SP was? Aside from the mario jumping puzzles I mean. ;) Remember how awesome sabre combat was the first time you played it? If you haven't played SP yet, PLAY IT. You're missing out. When I first got the game, I immediately loaded up MP. I didn't bother with SP. MP was cool, but when I started playing SP, I discovered that SP was MUCH cooler. Anyway, try learning and adapting to the new style of play. You may find it to be not that much of a change of pace from SP. Give it a chance. you may even enjoy it.

2.) If you absolutely hate the 1.03 patch, guess what. You're not alone! Plenty of other people out there feel the same way. Including plenty of server admins. Here's what you should do if you don't want to give up 1.02. First, delete, then reinstall the game, so as to remove the 1.03 patch. Then, either start your own server, or play on a server with 1.02 enabled. How do you find a 1.02 server? Well, the easiest way is to download All Seeing Eye. You can then create a custom filter that will check version numbers and filter OUT any server with 1.03 enabled. Simple as that! You can also configure All Seeing Eye for other custom filters, IE: sabres only, no force, guns only, etc. It's a great program. If you don't already have it, I highly recommend it. If you don't have it, either do a search for it on Google, or just go to www.udpsoft.com, I think. (can't remember if that's the name of their website or not...)

Ultimately, the choice is yours. But don't be fooled. You DO have an option. If you really like the game, and other people feel the same way, there WILL be servers for you to play on. Those of us that like the 1.03 patch, there WILL be servers for us to play on as well. This is, I believe, why Raven didn't bother to make it a server-side option to play 1.02 or 1.03. Because they didn't HAVE to. You can simply not upgrade to 1.03 if you don't want to play that way. This is also, I believe, why Raven will NOT be changing the game back to the way it was. These guys probably worked damn hard on this for a long time, deciding what to change, changing it, tweaking the changes, fixing bugs, and finally releasing it. They're not going to instantly undo all that work and piss off all the fans who are currently QUITE happy with the changes, especially when YOU already have the ability to fix what you don't like on your own. Don't want to play 1.03 style? Don't install the 1.03 patch then. Just stick with 1.02. It's not like Raven forced everyone to go to 1.03. You voluntarily downloaded the patch and installed it yourself. If you don't like it, uninstall it and play with 1.02 instead. See? Everyone's happy this way. 1.02 fans can still play the way they like, and 1.03 fans can play the way they like. Everybody wins.


I have one final comment. Well, two final comments, actually.

First off, my initial inclination was to start posting things like "HA HA!! WHINERS!! How's it feel to be on the $#itty end of the stick for a change? You're all WHINERS!!! HAHAHAHAHA!!!" But you know what? That sucks. Calling people whiners because they articulately express their own dissatisfaction with specific aspects of the game is not whining, no matter what side of the argument you're on. Therefore, while I'd REALLY like to get in the face of everyone who dislikes the current patch and says as much on the board, since that was how myself and a lot of people who disliked 1.02 were treated, I'm not going to. I hereby declare that, as far as I'm concerned, those of you who ARTICULATELY express your grievances are NOT whiners. On the other hand, if all you do is write a post saying "This sucks now!! Gameplay sucks!! I hate it!! Fix it!! Lucasarts/Raven/Activision sucks!! You guys ruined the game!!" then you ARE whining. Offer constructive criticism. Support your argument. Clearly express your points. Don't just write a bunch of bitching and moaning with no substantive complaints or support for your position (and PLEASE don't write it in haxor -- you just look like a frigging idiot when you do that and no one will take you seriously). Look at it this way. Fans who didn't like 1.02 complained. They complained on here and they complained to Raven. Do you think they simply wrote "You guys suck!!! I hate the game!!! It sucks!!! Fix it!!!"??? Do you think they even wrote saying things like "FIX BLOCKING!!! IT SUCKS!!"?? No, those of us who complained to Raven, and those of us whose opinions were likely taken seriously and taken to heart (which, along with Raven's decisions, ultimately led to the patch being in its current form) actually took time to explain what we didn't like, why we didn't like it, and how it affected gameplay. We were clear, we were articulate, and we offered constructive criticism. If you don't like things as they are, I suggest you adopt that approach. Who knows. Maybe you'll get something done.

Oh, and the other final thought is, "Take care of yourselves...and each other." :)

P.S. Sorry for the duplicate post, but I felt it was appropriate for this thread. Like I said, I won't be posting this russian novel of a post again, just linking to this post now. My apologies to the admins and to people who've now read this litany twice. :)

Borf
05-08-2002, 11:41 PM
Well said mate

Cheers

Jedi Legend
05-09-2002, 01:07 AM
That post was so inteligent, it made me proud to be a 1.3 patch supporter. Well said Solo. :)

Spider AL
05-09-2002, 01:13 AM
SpiderAL - long time no see...

Oh hi TDS, Yeah... It was nice while it lasted. :p

when I last saw you, we were debating bunnyhops and fanboys

Actually I was asserting that guns were necessary in JO, using a thread about bunny-hopping as a soapbox. So you're wrong there.

For the record, what you and others were preaching wasn't a "just live with it and adapt" philosophy. It was a "hey this is an fps first and SW game second, go find yourself a saber only server if you don't like guns."

Rubbish, I don't care what interpretation you put on it, what I was saying along with the others was that people such as yourself, who were whining about how there was "BUGGEY CHEETS" in the game should have adapted and stopped going on about it. :)

You're last paragraph is dead on target.

Yes TDS, it is dead on target. Just like the other paragraph in that post.

You can conserve ammo all you want. Conservation is no problem. My aim, and 50% of all the other competitive CTF teams, have excellent aim. Conservation isn't the problem, the problem is have not enough ammo to do our jobs. Defense needs ammo, mid-fielders need ammo, and attackers need ammo. Yes, both teams are in the same predicament, however, that's a lame excuse.

Ragey! it's been ages, we should get together sometime for a beer and a spot of nostalgia for the old JK1 days. What have you been doing with yourself?

Back to the topic, anyhoo. Hmm, let's take the flechette as an example... Two F2 hits will kill a normal attacker. With extra health or Force aids, three hits will do it. Three hits costs 75 ammo, leaving you one shot spare. So let's say two defenders with ONLY 100 ammo and a fleshy each... they could take out up to three attackers before they ran out of ammo. That's not including the use of force powers which make opponents impossible to miss, or vulnerable to primary fire... To me, a disciplined team could share ammo in a disciplined way, and back each other up with other weapons and forces. Sure, the patch requires some tweaks and refinements to team tactics, but different isn't necessarily worse.

Oh, and the sabre is my best friend in CTF! Probably because people don't expect me to use it in the ways I use it... but I ain't going to tell all these fewlish sabreists my secrets, so we'll leave it at that.

In my experience (one day's experience, anyway ;) ) what the patch changes... and ALL it changes, is one's reliance on force. I've had to use a lot more force powers to do the same amount of damage today. Gun-wise, I've gotten closer to my opponents... dodged tighter shots... used the force to hold the skipping fellows still... Ahh it reminded me of the good old days on BGJ.

In fact, instead of being called a "cheeeep cheeter" or a "gunwhore" today, I was called a "lame force user" a lot. Which I found amusing, at any rate.

It was Phayyde who originally wrote the masterful spoof containing the line "Know what? No ANY force nuthin! I've died too many times from lamers using those force powers, so byebye force! True Jedi don't need force. " I salute him, for the prophesy of what whiners would be saying in about two weeks time. lol

So anyhoo, I totally respect your concerns about the patch, but I have to say the day of the gunner hasn't drawn to a close quite yet. Certainly one must use them slightly more in combination with sabres and force, but it's a small price to pay to shut a lot of these whining sabreists up, I feel. :D

But hey, they'll be whining again in a week's time, and folks like you and I will be the cause of it. Trust.

Take care Rage.

Solo4114
05-09-2002, 01:35 AM
Thanks guys. I just felt that it had to be said. Also, I wanted to let people know that they can still enjoy the game, regardless of which side of the debate they fall on. Plus I wanted to give a really clear defense of 1.03 without actually slamming anyone else. Too often we get dragged down into a "n00b" fight, with folks simply calling each other names and saying that folks are using "n00b" logic and "n00b" arguments. Those aren't really arguments, though, just character assassination. I wanted to take a stance where you really couldn't attack character, since it just wasn't an issue in the post. Hopefully, it'll spark more focused debate.

Raven_Xwing
05-09-2002, 02:09 AM
Ever since the new patch several things have shown up in my game now.
1. when i use force drain my , when its near running out of force energy my player automaticaly throws the saber
2. sometimes when i use the secondary fire key it switched to the lightsaber
3. in single player when i use the bacta key my player automatically puts on the night vision goggles! \very strange!
anyone else having these things happen? Raven any answers?

Aoshi
05-09-2002, 02:11 AM
hehe wow that guy really summed it up ;) i would just like to say that i really like the ctf aspect of the game as well. running around killing people gets kinda old after a while and ctf is a nice variance. i think that raven did a good job in this new patch and i would like to thank them for all their hard work and dedication. we all appreciate it

WD Gambit
05-09-2002, 03:04 AM
If it hadnt "newbified" the game.

WD_ToRMeNt
05-09-2002, 03:17 AM
The NF CTF/TDM ladders were pretty inactive before, but I'd say 1.03 finished them off. Trying to defend a flag with a saber, 4 shots of ammo, and no force doesn't make for enjoyable gameplay.

Drain did need a tweek, but not that bad. Rage and I tested it the other night under 1.03. It cost him his entire mana pool to take me down to like 1/3 of my mana. So, basicaly, using that power does more damage to him then me. WTF...

Grip didn't need to be fixed, no one complained about running and gripping. It was weak enough in 1.02.

Heal is barely worth using. Maybe it needed a slight adjustment, but I don't even use it anymore.

The ammo situation makes competative CTF and TDM pointless. The gameplay just isn't there.

It's amazing, competative JK1 lasted for over 4 years with no patches. JK2 competative gaming ended after a month.

Sab battles are longer because of blocking, that makes saberist even easier targets for gunners. The complains will not stop because they nerfed the guns. They pretty much nerfed everything with this patch.

It's like Raven is trying to remove that skill facter so no one has to actually learn the game. I dont know if they realize this, but MP JK2 won't last long if they don't fix this.

UT2k3 is due to have a MP demo out at the end of this month. It'll be intresting to see how many JK2 servers are converted to UT2 servers. If raven doesn't release the tools to make mods, or fix the nerfing in a 1.04 patch, I think the WD JK2 server will become UT2.

Vanor
05-09-2002, 03:55 AM
Just feel like responding to this, for the most part I don't disagree with the point he makes, but the attuide dripping from this post really doesn't help those on his side of the debate.

Originally posted by WD Gambit
iIagree with just about everything rage has said, this patch in a nut shell hurts high skill lvl gaming

This seems to somehow imply that those who like the patch have no skill, and that guns are the only thing in JK2 that require skill.

Of course all the newbies praise this patch because saber battles are more "jedi like" or because it got rid of the dreaded DFA move that was never a problem bc/ it was so easy to avoid.

More of the same... Sabers are for skilless newbies, and only guns and CTF are tests of skill.

Raven if you want to anger all the people that actully are competitive gamers just do nothing because your going get from us what your giving us now Nothing.

I love the attuide here, it somehow seems to say that competitive gamers are the only ones who should have a say in how the game plays. That Raven screwed over any player with "skill" in this patch and made it so the newbies rule. If your that good, then you should still be able to beat a true newbie.

I'm more then willing to support changes to JK2 to make CTF playable again, provided that they don't remove the SP saber feel they changed MP to. There's no reason that the guners and duelist can't both be happy with JK2. The two styles of game play are different enough that we could have both.

But when you have someone who goes on about how much Raven sucks, and how they destroyed the game and made it so you don't need any skill... Well you won't really get many results that way.

Say what you dislike about the patch and how to fix it... just ranting won't help anyone, but can hurt your chances of getting what you want.

vulcanspy
05-09-2002, 04:45 AM
I've posted this elsewhere, but thought it might look nice here too...

I don't intend to sound demeaning, but if the game had been released with features similiar to v1.03, and then a patch came out with features similiar to v1.02c, you'd all be complaining about how guns are overpowered, saber combat is too short, and dear Lord why oh why did they take away the double-tap flipkick 'cause now I keep kickflipping off 'lips' on bridges and stuff. It's really amusing if you think about it. I'll even be big enough to admit that I'd probably be making the exact opposite of the argument I'm making now.

We all bought the game (in theory). After we bought it, there were things about the game we all did not like. Yet we played it and sang it's praises anyway. Now the patch comes out, and there are different things we don't like. But this time, we all say it's ruined the game and half of us are giving up on it. Well I for one am still planning on getting my money's worth, and if it means I have to relearn a few things, that does not disuade me from having fun. There will always be things I like and dislike about any changes or additions, but I can deal with that. I respectfully suggest that we all try to do the same.

-VulcanSpy

NewBJedi
05-09-2002, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by vulcanspy
I've posted this elsewhere, but thought it might look nice here too...

I don't intend to sound demeaning, but if the game had been released with features similiar to v1.03, and then a patch came out with features similiar to v1.02c, you'd all be complaining about how guns are overpowered, saber combat is too short, and dear Lord why oh why did they take away the double-tap flipkick 'cause now I keep kickflipping off 'lips' on bridges and stuff. It's really amusing if you think about it. I'll even be big enough to admit that I'd probably be making the exact opposite of the argument I'm making now.

We all bought the game (in theory). After we bought it, there were things about the game we all did not like. Yet we played it and sang it's praises anyway. Now the patch comes out, and there are different things we don't like. But this time, we all say it's ruined the game and half of us are giving up on it. Well I for one am still planning on getting my money's worth, and if it means I have to relearn a few things, that does not disuade me from having fun. There will always be things I like and dislike about any changes or additions, but I can deal with that. I respectfully suggest that we all try to do the same.

-VulcanSpy

Repeat after me:

Drastic gameplay changes = bad.

Kuroshi
05-09-2002, 06:20 AM
Originally posted by WD_Rage First off, please do not take what I say out of conext[/B]

My bad, I didn't see that you were responding to something dansolo (?) said. Seeing what you wrote without noticing that broke my rationality for a minute.

I don't like those people that can't stand dying either, but I still don't think that the changes were put in solely due to them. I believe the 'nerfed' guns were too strong, and CTF is still a great game with the changes involved.

Again, please do not take what I say out of context. If you would have included the trailing sentence, you would have adequately been informed of what CTF is about. And no, all our problems would not be solved by adding more ammo to the map.

You said this before:
"Conservation isn't the problem, the problem is have not enough ammo to do our jobs."

I took that to mean that there wasn't enough ammo around, rather than that you didn't have enough ammo on you. Sorry again for misunderstanding. As for the trailing sentence, I read it and understood it, but didn't feel like I needed to quote it. Here it is for reference:
"It's about defending your flag, controling key points of the map, and controling the enemy's base."

That's true. My only disagreement with you is that it can still be done fine with the new patch. Nothing else to say here, heh.

Lucky
05-09-2002, 07:32 AM
Spider, what about rage?

I stick to rage/speed almost exclusively because its the closest I can get to JK's gameplay. You could fire 8 shots point blank at me and not kill me.

Half the time i shoot 8 shots at my feet just plowing thru defense. My rate of fire is faster, my movement is faster, AND i do more damage. All I have to do is take a lil more time to find ammo and then I can plow my way thru an entire team, no matter how good they are, they don't have enough ammo to kill me.

If there were 2 of us, if we were using energize like us competitive types tend to do with rage/speed, it'd be even harder to stop us. The damage increase is less than the damage decrease, so telling people to try the same thing doesn't work.

It didn't even work in 1.02, i had to chase a friend of mine out of my base in bespin on a pub we were whoring, and between the 2 of us we ended up killing my entire team twice using the same exact tactics. People were getting flung around like pinballs on spawn.

The guns didn't need to be nerfed, they got nerfed because the sabers got nerfed, and that lil nerfing spilled into CTF.

What should have been done, was to make the saber a nice lil stunted BFG for all of the people who refuse to use anything else. Mebe a one hit kill against gunners. Leave the changes to the saber combat system in place, but make it more useful against ranged weapons.

As it is, its now impossible to a) kill a gunner with a saber in time to do any good, and b) defend yer flag consistently because the guns got nerfed.

What people were calling for was that the saber be made MORE effective, now its LESS effective but more cinematic. Personally, I like the changes in general made to the saber, however its entirely useless now, and so are my guns.

CTF is now an exercise in sitting around staring at eachother wondering why we're not playing a different game. We play CTF to compete as a group against other folks, but when our means of competition gets nerfed out from under us, we're a lil dumbfounded.

Raven needs to up the effectiveness of everything in the game. If that means you can get by doing one thing for a long time, then so be it. So long as you can do one of MANY things, thats not a problem. Eventually people will develop the skill needed to do more than one of those depending on the situation and the game will require more skill to succeed at.

One more note, saying that the ammo constraints even remotely affect saberists is a lil fraudlent. Obviously, we can all agree that the nerfs were meant to balance the 2; guns vs sabers. However, because the saber got nerfed so heavily in terms of damage, people cluster together even tighter now, and make it even easier to get huge group kills with any explosive weapon.

There's less ammo, but it translates into more kills in a DM situation against saberists. So essentially its even easier to run around smashing poor helpless folks who want to play sabers.

So the nerfed guns didn't do much other than mildly stem the tide of huge sickeningly genocidal group kills. And im seriously tired of indulging in them, thats why I started playing CTF. DM was just a matter of smashing the every loving crap out of anybody who was sabering, or chasing the one other guy on the server who was using a gun around until I got bored.

The saber was at least mildly useful before the patch in a ctf match, its still not TOTALLY useless, but its much harder to use in a situation where a very slight mistake can have you respawning.

What needs to be done to balance the guns vrs the sabers, is make the sabers more deadly against guns.

It's like tic tac toe, a saber should translate into a very quick and elegant kill against someone not holding one, and that should be that. It should of course require you to get close enough to get a swing in, but nothing more. (this would also draw people into dueling situations more often, rather than risk getting smacked to death by some beligerant JKii.net forum goer) =P

The saber would then be on par with the rest of the weapons. The guns in general SHOULD do at LEAST the minimum amount needed to keep someone away from your flag.

Thats really all we're asking, all of us who have posted are not in the slightest going to offer the notion that we wouldn't appreciate another useful tool like the saber in our tool bags. The problem is that most of our other tools are ineffective now.

There'v been other complaints that people have mentioned, but those are very minor things to tweak. Adjust the damage on the saber slightly to keep duels moving along faster, nixing everything in the saber combat that is an obvious repetitive exploit.

The biggest issue for us, those of us that consider ourselves competitive CTF'rs, is how they attempted to balance the sabers with the guns.

Again, if the saber were to be made into a weapon that could actually kill us without requireing somekind of ingenious talent or a sheer stroke of luck, we'd all love it and use it.

As it is, it has no advantage over a ranged weapon other than defense against anything thats not explosive. Personally, the solution I see is to make it VERY deadly against guns, and return the guns to their previous abilities if not actually making them slightly MORE effective.

That would allow us to use both, much to our delight and the delight of anyone who enjoys a lightstick over a boom cannon.
Personally, I use one over the other simply out of necessity.

This is just a suggestion, feel free to point out the errors in my logic.



Lucky

NyghtWalker
05-09-2002, 07:51 AM
All I know is I want my team mates and opponents back. Before the patch I frequented about 5 CTF servers a night depending on their slots available. Each of them on the average had at least 15 players. Since these servers have patched up they have been completely devoid of human life (although I did find a bot on one server). This by itself should tell the Raven crew that the patch has taken the enjoyment out of CTF.

I've said it before in other threads and I'll repeat it in brief here. Pre-patch CTF was a blast, I am primarily a saberist and 1v1 I do ok...not good, not bad. I win some, I lose a bit more than I win. I excel at multiple opponents vs me though (like when I have the flag and several people are trying to get it back from me). I play on guns+saber CTF servers and I loved being able to jump around, roll here, dodge there and force pull the gun from my opponent just before slapping them a few times with my saber and moving onto the next person trying to take the flag from me. Sometimes I'd die but more often than not I'd be able to hold onto the flag, kill quite a few of my enemies at the time and score for my team.

Now that the patch is out and saber damage has been reduced (except for spamming a backstab attack) saberists are at a vast disadvantage against even 1 gun user, let alone 5 of them. Even with the higher ammo consumption the gun users are still better off than their saber wielding counterparts.

True I could find a saber only server but that's not what I personally like. I liked the challenge of deflecting blaster bolts, dodging the various alt fires, force pushing the rockets, force pulling guns. But what was an entertaining challenge has now become an excercise in futility because as it is if the gunner has ANY skill at all with the gun then he/she will riddle the saberist before the saber wielding jedi can do enough damage with his whiffle bat to put a stop to the gunner.

I'll continue playing weither this is fixed or not, but my enjoyment factor of the game has greatly declined.

Lucky
05-09-2002, 08:06 AM
Exactly, they nerfed the sabers fairly badly, and nobody's even bothered to take the issue up yet.

While satisfying the duelists, they screwed the chances of anyone wanting to use a saber in a game with guns. + they screwed the CTF'r so bad he can't hope to defend his flag properly in just about any situation.

Solution:

Make the saber a one hit kill against anyone not using it. Give us our ammo back. That fixes AND enhances CTF. The other issues with this patch are going to require different fixes.


Lucky

Nill the Mean
05-09-2002, 09:16 AM
1. Less saber clashing during attack animations (not none, less)
2. Smaller blocking radius for more realistic feel
3. Less sparking, no fireworks please
4. Up the damage on all saber attacks (apart from backstab, which needs a small nerf)
4. Add fists
5. Add a Gungan you can hit with a stick

Jellybelly
05-09-2002, 10:26 AM
Hi all :)

Well, reading the posts here and the amount of different views and opinions that are expressed, suggests even more to me that serverside options is the way to go.

I don't think that Raven will ever make eveyone happy (that's obviously impossible), and it's really not their obligation to do so either.

However, instead of trying to tweak out the "ultimate" patch...I think Raven would win over big with more serverside options, if it's technically possible that is.

If it is, then giving the multiplayer gameplay teaking responsability to the server admins, would deliver more freedom and control for the users (giving them the gameplay they want - regardless of taste), as well as get some public heat off Ravens' back.

I can't beleive peeps be going "This suck! Fix it!". They obviously do not have any idea of the amount of work involved. Furthermore, Raven has already released a finished product, and apart from fixing obvious bugs they can hardly be said to have any obligation to "fix" anything else for us.

Some time has past now since Raven released this game...and as far as I know it's got great reviews, it's doing good in sales and it's got a big user community behind it (just look at this Forum).

Considering the above, it's to me pretty unlikely that Ravens serious efforts to tweak the game according to public demand is mainly due to economical interests (selling more copies). It is far more likely to me that they are a developer who actually cares about their customers and take pride in their product, sincerely trying to make it as "perfect" as they can to as many gameplayers out there as they can.

I even feel I might be asking for far to much when suggesting to implement major multiplayer serverside gameplay options. Nevertheless, I still see it as probably being the most logical step to take considering the circumstances, in order to end this debate once and for all.

Anyways...thank's a million to Raven for a great game, a great patch...and for trying so hard to please us. You did an excellent job indeed.

Thank's You guys. :)

Cheers

Jellybelly

PS To fellow visitors: I made some edits to my previous post in this thread regarding dismemberment. If You feel like reading it, You can do so here (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51296&perpage=40&pagenumber=3) (my post is in the middle of the page).

Nill the Mean
05-09-2002, 10:30 AM
But as I said before to you, which you probably didn't read...

With so many serverside options you would have to look for ages to get the type of game you want. Everytime you log onto a server it might be very different. There are not enough servers to support that much more game-types. I find it hard to find the type of game I want now already, sometimes.

jah'kel
05-09-2002, 10:53 AM
I think people should try imagining this:

You just bought Jedi outcast your installing it for the first time and you notice that:

-you need clean and precise strikes for maxium damage with saber
- if you run and just swing randomly without tactic hoping the inflict damage, you risk having your attack parried leaving you vulnerable.
-you have 3 distinct stances: one for fast strikes and swirling, one for precise strikes and medium damage and one for slow but heavy damage.
-blocking is somewhat easy, so you dont have to play "hit and run" (which really was Dark forces 2 JK's style of play).

But then you install a patch and notice the following changes:

-the way you learned to fight in single player is different in multiplayer
-you find that the light and medium stance are boths for swirling
but with medium having the range and damage advantage.
- the DFA cause the attacker to be dangerous to approch, is easier to do and now kills instantly, so alot of people rely only on that attack.
-Now, anyone can swing randomly with a good chance of strinking you at maximum damage, even with a slash that seemed like a grasing.
-blocking is not as easy to do especially against "headless chickens"
-lightsaber deals more damage (granted ending a fight quickly in 2 or 3 skillfull strikes is fun too)

I can only talk about the saber issues but what im trying to say is that if the game had come in version 1.03 and the patch released changed to game to 1.02 all of you people would be complaining about the changes.( If you take a moment to think about it, you know its true).

Its understandable that everybody has gotten used to playing version 1.02 but if you weigh the differences, the patch is not that bad.

Beside, from what I understand lenghty battle seem to be the major problem, either that what Raven wanted us to experience originally when they made to game if not, this might be change in the next patch. Anyway, im pretty sure mods will be released with damage modifications eventually.

So instead why dont everybody pratice more with the updated version to improve their skills and if you really want the game to be different, maybe should start getting interested in game editing.

just my 2 cents

TheDarkSide
05-09-2002, 11:30 AM
Great first post, jah'kel.

I never thought of it from that perspective, but you're right. If version 1.03 is what we started with and got used to, and then got patched to v1.02.....man oh man, ain't nobody that would be happy.

TDS

Calmbr
05-09-2002, 11:33 AM
Awsome game, Raven. But I have a unique problem (or at least I think I do). In SP, I have a problem saving. I reinstalled JKII with nothing in it, and saving worked perfectly. But when I put my old config files and saves back, it went back to saving wrongly. the wierd thing is that it saves the files, but they don't show up in the menu. I had some mods installed, but they NEVER gave me trouble before. Please help me!
On a side note, awsome patch, I love the new duel levels. I don't see what people's beef is with the saber system. Oh, I'd like some new CTF levels. Thanks in advance!

NyghtWalker
05-09-2002, 12:03 PM
jah'kel, actually I'd be fairly happy if it was 1.0.3-1.0.2
Alot more skill was involved in 1.0.2 than currently instead of mindless spinning around. If anyone took the time to do some checking (and I have) the only people for the patch are the people who stick to <a> duels or <b> saber only games. I have yet to see a single saber+guns or gun user speak a good word about the patch.

Also further investigation shows that those who speak the loudest (not all, but a good portion) are the exact same ones that cried and cried and cried "DFA sucks, I get killed everytime" "grip sucks, he threw me off the catwalk" "heal sucks cause it takes longer to kill him now" These were the people who whinned and complained instead of actually learning any of the abundant counters for these situations. If it were just a matter of learning new counters I'd still be playing on my CTF servers instead of wasting my time here but since my CTF servers I frequent are now "ghost towns" (complete with rolling tumbleweed) there's not a whole lot left for me to do in regards to jk2. Anyhow I'am off to work, I'll check back this evening.

Xanthos
05-09-2002, 01:21 PM
After reading all these posts (like reading a chapter book here hehe :)) I just want to say you are all entitled to your opinion and I agree with some and don't agree with some. But what I'm trying to get to here is, what else are you gonna play?

I came across a lot of people that complain and whine constantly over and over because they don't have the skills to change their combat styles due to the patch. Therefore they think the game is "ruined" "trash" "stupid", because their cheap DFA 24/7 doesn't work anymore. Cry cry boo hoo who cares. If you don't like it, too bad! Not much you can do can you? What else are you gonna play? Jedi Knight I? I guess so, but have fun playing on the only server that has a max of 4 people. There is NO other Star Wars game like this that offers the intense feel of jedi and jedi's in combat. Also there is no other game that offers all the different features like force powers and saber locking and throwing your saber. So maybe you could find some half life mod or something, but then all you would be doing is swinging the same way all the time.

So if you people that think the patch is "stupid" and "the patch screwed up everything I'm quitting". Go right ahead, I'll see you later in 4 days when you realise there really isn't any other games like this. If you are a true fan, you'd stay with the game. If your not, then well you'd probably go play your Counter Strike (lol) and maybe come back in the next patch. It's either you deal with the game now (i think the new patch is spectacular myself) and just give it a CHANCE. And no, I don't mean chance like 3 hours and then "this is stupid im quitting", give it about a week and you might find yourself liking it more then before. Or you can quit and wait for Star Wars galaxies in 7 months and twiddle your thumbs, or sit around and wait for the next patch.

That's just my opinion on things. But the keyword here. What else are ya gonna play?

Kypt
05-09-2002, 01:21 PM
Gun + Saber guy here :). I do not dislike the patch, yet there are many things I do not like. I think ammo thing is arlight ONLY if they place more amo on CTF bases. The blocking on lightsabers is kind of ridiculous. If you don't attack on a one to one duel u never get hit. No matter the type of slash. Be it strong, weak, or medium, the guy will block it. Until they attack and are vulnerable u can hit. I really have a problem w/ that. I hit a guy up to the point of 12 hp and he just starts moving around and not attacking. Making ME loose time and by the time I finally kill him, someone has already passed me for about 20 points.

The back move is being spammed a lot more since it is an easy one shot kill (yes, even more than old DFA). I am guilty of this, y? Its a lot faster. People complain "can't u fight like a man?". I fight, I kill, then I go back to backward slash. More efficient, but I can understand frustration. It is CHEAP if applied correctly. If you know how to do it perfectly the ONLY counters that MIGHT help (depending on shield) are rage and protect. You don't have those forces, be ready to see ur head flying off (BTW, they did fix dismemberment :))

Edit: The things I do not like about the patch have nothing to do w/ the altering of my playing style (for those iditos that think all who complain are ALL about that). W/ or w/o the patch I haven't found many peeps that I can actually duke it out w/ and be about even. Not being cocky, just I haven't met many of u in a server. Thing is, when it takes u more than 2 minutes killing a guy w/ a saber...u have a problem. Also, when it takes u one hit and 10 seconds to kill them (backward slash) that sux too. I want you guys that have been saying "stop the whining!" to duel me. I'll show u what the patch has done, and then I want u to not whine.

Jellybelly
05-09-2002, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by Nill the Mean
But as I said before to you, which you probably didn't read...

With so many serverside options you would have to look for ages to get the type of game you want. Everytime you log onto a server it might be very different. There are not enough servers to support that much more game-types. I find it hard to find the type of game I want now already, sometimes.
Sorry Nill. You're right...I didn't read Your previous post.

Ok...valid point. However, ask Yourself these questions:

1. As it is now, many people don't like any type of game the current setup allows for in the first place. Would they not rather spend some more time looking for something they might like...instead of it not even existing in the first place? Once You find the servers You like, just add them to Your favorites.

2. Don't You think server browsing filter functions will be updated as the new switches arrive? "The All-Seeing-Eye" for example has made a pretty good job in including filters for JKO so far. Nothing suggests that this should not be the case in the future as well.

3. Maybe there will be many servers leaving the game more or less in "default" mode, making only minor changes? The most serious debate in this issue seems so far to have come from certain groups of people (FFA matchplayers, saber purists etc).
They will probably have some generally prefered gamestyle, which will most likely make most of the "saber purists" servers pretty similar in setup...same goes for the serious FFA matchplayers, and so on.

4. Isn't compromise always a factor? Many most likely will never find "exactly" the kind of server they want with game tweaked patches anyway, as the gameplay of the static patches does not agree with everyone. However, with serverside gameplay options, You might have to look a bit longer, but on the other hand the chances of finding a server more true to Your personal preferences are dramatically increased. In fact, even not finding exactly the server You want would in that case still leave You the option to setup Your "perfect" server Yourself.

Cheers

Jellybelly

ArtifeX
05-09-2002, 01:42 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114
I've posted this elsewhere, but I'll post it here too. Although from now on, in patches where people are complaining, I'll just refer them to this post.

First off, thanks Raven. You've earned a loyal customer in me. You paid attention to what the fans wanted, and gave it to 'em. You balanced the game, and made it more fun (for me at least).

I like the patch so far. I haven't played as a darkside jedi yet, but as a lightside jedi, it's quite well balanced, I think.


wrong. Play Dark. You'll see what i mean.

A lot of people don't like the patch though. I'm going to go through and explain why I feel that the patch has helped gameplay, at least for a guy like me who prefers to use the sabre.

1.) Nerfing of Drain and Heal
...Maybe they nerfed drain too much...


Correct.

...

I'm not going to bother with the rest. I'll save it for the new *ASC* site, which is going back up soon. It suffices to say that you're off-base on some of your points. On others, you're 180-degrees opposite of the truth. I have numbers to back up my point of view. You either do not have such or are keeping them to yourself. Either way, watch for the posting of my new guide--I will state and prove my points.

Sith_Incarnite
05-09-2002, 01:50 PM
I for one an glad that the patch is here and I'm in favor of all the changes that it has made. When I first downloaded and used it I was furious because it had altered medium stance and the flip-kick. I actually uninstalled JK2 and then gutted the old directory with the intention of re-installing JK2 and leaving the patch off. I am a member of a clan and the other guys encouraged me to give it a chance so I re-applied the patch and we had a good two hour practice session using the new patch and I have to admit...that once I did give it a chance...I have grown to love it.

Now for the Guns vs. Sabers feud!! I use an even mix of guns and saber. I don't mind the changes to the guns because now all of the NO SKILL gun spammers will have no choice but to either grow some skill and a better aim or they will just have to take their moaning, groaning, griping ass somewhere else....like to a Q3 or an Unreal Tournement server for some "no skill needed" gun spamming. Now you actually have to have good aim and know how to conserve ammo (something I'm quite familiar with since I was in the Marin Corps for seven years).

People that say that Grip has been nerfed are smoking their own ****weed! Sure ...you can run while gripping them but you can still grip and throw then wherever you please.

CTF Nerfed now? I think not. My team did about two hours of solid CTF practice last night and the guns..(in the right hands) were quite effective!

One last thing before I close. I was a hardcore Q3, Unreal Tournament player who loves guns & as much ammo as you can carry. I also played JK1 since the day IT came out and I hated sabers in that game. Guns were the only good part of that game....and maybe a couple of the force powers.

I say that this patch is going to separate the people with skills from the no-skill spammers. Hint, 90 % of the people that hate the patch are the "no-skill spammers".

henrychan415
05-09-2002, 02:12 PM
THE PATCH IS HORRIBLE, IT MADE THE GAME LESS FUN YOU STUPID B1TCHES. I CANT BELIEVE SOME OF YOU ACTUALLY LIKE IT

Aoshi
05-09-2002, 02:17 PM
I think that a factor that you saberists are overlooking is a very vital (and funny) one. You do know that you can push the secondary fire from repeater/flechette and rockets back at the person who shot them right? I've been playing with saber many a time to have someone shoot a rocket at me. What did i do? I pushed the rocket back at them and killed them. You can do the same thing with the flechette easily. The repeater is a bit trickier but i've still killed people with their own repeater fire. the point of this? everything has its balance if you are good enough. if you are not then please stop whining and go play DiabloII where everyone hacks/steals/cheats/backstabs/whines/complains. You will find it more to your liking cause you will have many people like you surrounding you all the time.

dol-Egon
05-09-2002, 02:49 PM
I don't get all this complaining.

True, the ones that whined the loudest before were the ones that obviously do not know how to play the game (all you DFA whiners--pre-patch, the move was EASILY counteracted and usualy with a kill in your favor). And true, they nerfed the weapons and saber stances.

But they did it for a reason... to make even MORE balanced than it already was (no small feat).

As for the heavy stance... it was nerfed, but I still use it almost exclusively (except in tight spaces). My kill ratio hasn't changed and I'm still usually in the top 3 or 4 players on a server. I like the "new" DFA move for it's realism (you can't turn after you've landed it--hoping to have someone run into your saber). I use it the same way I did before (as a finishing move) with the same results (and yes, it is still easy to counter this move for a skilled player).

Heal and drain... all I have to say is "THANK YOU RAVEN". Heal was way too cheap before, making saber fights last FOREVER (unless you drained the crap out of them). And drain-spammers will now think twice about using up all their mana just to take you down a few points.

Guns.. well, this game is called JEDI KNIGHT II, not Quake 3 Arena, so I won't even bother. I rarely use guns in the game because it takes away from the fun of being a saber-wielding-Jedi-maniac. If I wanted guns, I'd go play Q3A. Besides, a saber in the hands of a skilled player still kicks most gunners' asses.

My one, minor annoyance about the patch is Force lightening. I could be wrong, but it feels as if it was beefed up, causing more damage.

But beyond that, I am very pleased with the patch. AND THIS COMES FROM A SABER PLAYER and DARKSIDER.

Kypt
05-09-2002, 03:15 PM
Until Quake 3 Arena has forces enabled, you can't tell peeps to go play it for guns. The fun thing for gunners in JK2 is mainly the fact that there IS force. Specially in CTF. Quake 3 doesn't have the rich competitive style that JO has cuz it lacks force. Not need to get in detail, but think before u write...

NewBJedi
05-09-2002, 03:17 PM
They simply need to do this (besides un-nerfing drain and grip):

Saber attacks - same as new patch.

Saber blocks - much more toned down - more like the non-patched game.

That is if they want a decent compromise.

There's a difference between balancing by removing abilities vs. adding better stuff for the other side.

It's like giants fighting midgets but you cut off the giants legs.

Don't punish the giants for being giants - give the midgets jetpacks. :)

Vanor
05-09-2002, 03:41 PM
I agree partly with you Newb...

Originally posted by NewBJedi
They simply need to do this (besides un-nerfing drain and grip):
No drain did need to be tweaked, perhaps not to the point it is now, but it did need to be tweaked. Grip I can't really comment on. But if all they did is make you walk when having someone gripped, I don't see this as a problem.

Saber attacks - same as new patch.

Saber blocks - much more toned down - more like the non-patched game.

That is if they want a decent compromise.
I dissagree somewhat, a decent compromise, would be toning down blocking, by say 50% of what it is now. But making it like it was before the patch is not a compromise. Many people complained prior to the patch that MP sabers weren't like SP sabers, Raven made it more like SP, but I could be happy with them toning down blocking a bit.

Nill the Mean
05-09-2002, 04:18 PM
To JellyBelly:

Good pointers...
It would be nice I suppose, but I still think it wouldn't work in theory. The remaining factor I'm concerned about is what if the servers you normally always connect to start using options you don't like? If the jolt.co.uk servers started using certain things I didn't like then I would be deprived of say, 5 servers already. The list of places where I get a good ping doesn't stretch forever AND I have ADSL... That is why I think it would be better for one general game, which is very good. Makes everything a lot simpler. And for that we just need to give the right pointers to Raven for the next patch. Then we wait.

IronJedi Kaga
05-09-2002, 08:13 PM
Originally posted by WD_ToRMeNt
The NF CTF/TDM ladders were pretty inactive before, but I'd say 1.03 finished them off. Trying to defend a flag with a saber, 4 shots of ammo, and no force doesn't make for enjoyable gameplay.

Drain did need a tweek, but not that bad. Rage and I tested it the other night under 1.03. It cost him his entire mana pool to take me down to like 1/3 of my mana. So, basicaly, using that power does more damage to him then me. WTF...

Grip didn't need to be fixed, no one complained about running and gripping. It was weak enough in 1.02.

Heal is barely worth using. Maybe it needed a slight adjustment, but I don't even use it anymore.

The ammo situation makes competative CTF and TDM pointless. The gameplay just isn't there.

It's amazing, competative JK1 lasted for over 4 years with no patches. JK2 competative gaming ended after a month.

Sab battles are longer because of blocking, that makes saberist even easier targets for gunners. The complains will not stop because they nerfed the guns. They pretty much nerfed everything with this patch.

It's like Raven is trying to remove that skill facter so no one has to actually learn the game. I dont know if they realize this, but MP JK2 won't last long if they don't fix this.

UT2k3 is due to have a MP demo out at the end of this month. It'll be intresting to see how many JK2 servers are converted to UT2 servers. If raven doesn't release the tools to make mods, or fix the nerfing in a 1.04 patch, I think the WD JK2 server will become UT2.

Normally I dont say this, but if your playing nf guns with ctf and tdm, then what's the point of having bought jk2 in the first place?

The primary point of drain is the healing it does, not the force it drains from another player. If your going to judge it, judge it on those standards. Drain needed to be nerfed becasue it was not only replenishing health, but leaving the other player completely without force. In addition it had incredible range, and still does in 1.03

Grip I agree needed no tweaks.

Heal changes make sense, heal only required a small sacrafice of force in 1.02 and even then all a person ahd to do was run and tap the heal button and instant full health.

I agree with the ammo changes completey. The repeater and golan still do the same damage, just have to be an accurate shot and or conserve ammo for when its needed. It will be harder for defenders who relied on nothing but those guns in ctf. But for TDM there is no excuse to complain. There are other weapons outside the repeater and golan. If you cant kill somone without using a repeater or golan in secondary mode then you need to practice with the other weapons. The bowcaster, rl, thermals, mines, st rifle, saber, and even the bryar pistol are all effective if you know how to use them.

*edit:* Finally the guns were not nerfed. ONLY the repeater and golan were changed. You say that Raven wants to make it so people dont actually learn the game, but what needs to happen is that you and other people who complain that "guns" were nerfed in the patch need to learn to use the other weapons besides the hr and golan.

devNiGHThaWk
05-09-2002, 08:39 PM
When the game came out, i used to complain how there were not enough ammo, but playing it i got used to it, now that the patch came out it completly runs you out of ammo.

People say how spamming was stoped, and how you have to be really precise now. First off, none of the guns in jk2 are accurate in exception of the sniper rifle. You need to spam to kill, because anyone with half brain can dodge slow moving golan balls and pull your gun so you no longer have one.

I am sorry to say this raven, but you are ruining the game for every one. You listened to people who only play sabers and made the patch thinking that that is all the jk players. All the gunners and ctf players do not even come to this board, because we had nothing to complain about. Now obviously we do, cause you are ruining the game we once loved to play. I ask you to go look at the http://www.teamwarfare.com and see what your patch has done. It made the whole ladder chaos and you pissed of 64 CTF clans. Who are now joining the freshly made 1.02 ladders. I hope you can do something to make the gunners happy because we are wery unhappy right now.

Thank you for your time

JaG-SpoonMaN
05-09-2002, 08:53 PM
JaG was started back in feb 1998 by some friends playing Jk1 and we kept on playing JK1 till just a few months ago
i myself started playing Jk1 the very day it came out
now we find ourselves i na very bad spot
when Jk2 hit the stores we all got it
we played it and after we got used to it we loved playing CTF
now i was a nf gunner in Jk1 and didnt really ever play CTF much in it but i loved it in Jk2
but now that we have to use 25 ammo per shot it takes away from the game as a whole
till the day the patch came out i was on the TWL's nf saber ladder and was doing great on it
but i have now droped it and as a clan JaG will be leaving JK2 very soon if at least the ammo problem is not fixed
either by raising the ammo limit or by puting it back to 8 ammo per shot
we can make our own CTF levels so thats ok but this does need fixed and fixed NOW
btw any of u so called "elite" nf gayberists wanna fight me find me on IRC in etg #jag

IronJedi Kaga
05-09-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Lucky
Spider, what about rage?

I stick to rage/speed almost exclusively because its the closest I can get to JK's gameplay. You could fire 8 shots point blank at me and not kill me.

Half the time i shoot 8 shots at my feet just plowing thru defense. My rate of fire is faster, my movement is faster, AND i do more damage. All I have to do is take a lil more time to find ammo and then I can plow my way thru an entire team, no matter how good they are, they don't have enough ammo to kill me.

If there were 2 of us, if we were using energize like us competitive types tend to do with rage/speed, it'd be even harder to stop us. The damage increase is less than the damage decrease, so telling people to try the same thing doesn't work.

It didn't even work in 1.02, i had to chase a friend of mine out of my base in bespin on a pub we were whoring, and between the 2 of us we ended up killing my entire team twice using the same exact tactics. People were getting flung around like pinballs on spawn.

The guns didn't need to be nerfed, they got nerfed because the sabers got nerfed, and that lil nerfing spilled into CTF.

What should have been done, was to make the saber a nice lil stunted BFG for all of the people who refuse to use anything else. Mebe a one hit kill against gunners. Leave the changes to the saber combat system in place, but make it more useful against ranged weapons.

As it is, its now impossible to a) kill a gunner with a saber in time to do any good, and b) defend yer flag consistently because the guns got nerfed.

What people were calling for was that the saber be made MORE effective, now its LESS effective but more cinematic. Personally, I like the changes in general made to the saber, however its entirely useless now, and so are my guns.

CTF is now an exercise in sitting around staring at eachother wondering why we're not playing a different game. We play CTF to compete as a group against other folks, but when our means of competition gets nerfed out from under us, we're a lil dumbfounded.

Raven needs to up the effectiveness of everything in the game. If that means you can get by doing one thing for a long time, then so be it. So long as you can do one of MANY things, thats not a problem. Eventually people will develop the skill needed to do more than one of those depending on the situation and the game will require more skill to succeed at.

One more note, saying that the ammo constraints even remotely affect saberists is a lil fraudlent. Obviously, we can all agree that the nerfs were meant to balance the 2; guns vs sabers. However, because the saber got nerfed so heavily in terms of damage, people cluster together even tighter now, and make it even easier to get huge group kills with any explosive weapon.

There's less ammo, but it translates into more kills in a DM situation against saberists. So essentially its even easier to run around smashing poor helpless folks who want to play sabers.

So the nerfed guns didn't do much other than mildly stem the tide of huge sickeningly genocidal group kills. And im seriously tired of indulging in them, thats why I started playing CTF. DM was just a matter of smashing the every loving crap out of anybody who was sabering, or chasing the one other guy on the server who was using a gun around until I got bored.

The saber was at least mildly useful before the patch in a ctf match, its still not TOTALLY useless, but its much harder to use in a situation where a very slight mistake can have you respawning.

What needs to be done to balance the guns vrs the sabers, is make the sabers more deadly against guns.

It's like tic tac toe, a saber should translate into a very quick and elegant kill against someone not holding one, and that should be that. It should of course require you to get close enough to get a swing in, but nothing more. (this would also draw people into dueling situations more often, rather than risk getting smacked to death by some beligerant JKii.net forum goer) =P

The saber would then be on par with the rest of the weapons. The guns in general SHOULD do at LEAST the minimum amount needed to keep someone away from your flag.

Thats really all we're asking, all of us who have posted are not in the slightest going to offer the notion that we wouldn't appreciate another useful tool like the saber in our tool bags. The problem is that most of our other tools are ineffective now.

There'v been other complaints that people have mentioned, but those are very minor things to tweak. Adjust the damage on the saber slightly to keep duels moving along faster, nixing everything in the saber combat that is an obvious repetitive exploit.

The biggest issue for us, those of us that consider ourselves competitive CTF'rs, is how they attempted to balance the sabers with the guns.

Again, if the saber were to be made into a weapon that could actually kill us without requireing somekind of ingenious talent or a sheer stroke of luck, we'd all love it and use it.

As it is, it has no advantage over a ranged weapon other than defense against anything thats not explosive. Personally, the solution I see is to make it VERY deadly against guns, and return the guns to their previous abilities if not actually making them slightly MORE effective.

That would allow us to use both, much to our delight and the delight of anyone who enjoys a lightstick over a boom cannon.
Personally, I use one over the other simply out of necessity.

This is just a suggestion, feel free to point out the errors in my logic.



Lucky

There are several thing to do that can stop your rage/speed and fire away. If you just run by firing at your feet constantly you are pull bait. A smart defender would simply get you in his/her sites and pull your gun away from you. No more heavy weapon spam at the feet. Even easier is if your doing that near ledges. Just push you off. Harder to do now, but also applies is to grip you and toss you around, preferably after pulling your weapon away.

Another flaw in your logic is that you say you take the time to find ammo. There's nothing keeping the defense from doing the same.
As for the 8 shots point blank, well thats the whole point of dark rage. If there's cappers using dark rage have some defenders shoot while other concntrate on keeping the cappers away from the flag. Force fields will stop anyone for a short period of time. Sentries can help add additional damage.

And as I've said before, they didnt nerf the guns. They only nerfed the golan and the repeater. The saber is better now, it wasn't nerfed. Raven just required the skill level required to use it. Time your swing and place them correctly and you will get the damage done in 1.02 (with the exception of heavy stance, but now it has combos so it balances out).

On the golan and the repeater, the secondary shots were nerfed to balance them with the other high damage large radius weapons. Notice that you only get 3 rockets, 4 dets, 3 det packs. All of them are high damage and large radius. The secondary hr and golan fire are now in line with the other high damage large radius weapons.

As for saber vs golan/repeater balance, it has been evened out. Golan/repeater uses get less shots but still do the same damage. For saberists, more chances to defend with push or by dodging, but in turn that have to get really accurate and timed hits. There's the balance.

As for your dm comments, saberists who stand in a group will always get hammered.The responsibility of good saber fighting falls around the player. You should know that if your in a Dm with guns that you have to be on alert for a gun user if yur fighting another saber player (the exception is being a duel). It's an issue of awareness, if you let yourself get sucked into a duel and forget that someone could turn the corner and mow you down with thermal , repeater, rocket etc, then its your own fault. It's not a game balance issue when that happens.

Finally as for CTF, there are OTHER guns besides the golan and repeater. If CTF is so unbalanced then why did no one complain before the patch? The answer is because the defenders relied soley on spamming the golan and repeater secondary. Otherwise the changes to those weapons wouldn't be causing so much of an uproar or issues about the balance of CTF would have been pointed out before the patch.

L3onheart
05-09-2002, 09:07 PM
FISTS????? WTF?????

I'll eat my hat when the day I see Obi-Wan using his fists. WTF are you whiners talking about?? YOU WANT FISTS??? IN THE SW UNIVERSE???? GEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEZ!!!

What's next???? Kung-fu Kyle???

IronJedi Kaga
05-09-2002, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by devNiGHThaWk
When the game came out, i used to complain how there were not enough ammo, but playing it i got used to it, now that the patch came out it completly runs you out of ammo.

People say how spamming was stoped, and how you have to be really precise now. First off, none of the guns in jk2 are accurate in exception of the sniper rifle. You need to spam to kill, because anyone with half brain can dodge slow moving golan balls and pull your gun so you no longer have one.

I am sorry to say this raven, but you are ruining the game for every one. You listened to people who only play sabers and made the patch thinking that that is all the jk players. All the gunners and ctf players do not even come to this board, because we had nothing to complain about. Now obviously we do, cause you are ruining the game we once loved to play. I ask you to go look at the http://www.teamwarfare.com and see what your patch has done. It made the whole ladder chaos and you pissed of 64 CTF clans. Who are now joining the freshly made 1.02 ladders. I hope you can do something to make the gunners happy because we are wery unhappy right now.

Thank you for your time

Sorry but the repeater secondary fire and golan secondary fire can be used with precision. People can dodge but thats the whole issue of aim and thought. If they are constanly trying to dodge try to predict where and fire ahead. With the golan you can even afford to miss becasue there's a chance they will run into the mines when they are on the ground. The repeater secondary fired fast enough so that you can hit with accuracy. Players need to increase their skills so they can do those things. And just to cclear things up I'm not some aiming god, becasue I can't do the abve perfectly all the time, but thats where practice and increasing one's skill level comes in.

As for the rest of your post, you need to stop working with generalities. The patch did not ruin everything for everyone, did not piss off everyone, and did not piss off every team on the TWL. You can speak for yourself and people you know for a fact agree with you (given that they dont mind you doing so), anything else is just exaggeration.

D'akt Sangwar
05-09-2002, 09:13 PM
OMG OMG OMG
i dont care aobut anyones moaning anymore
i love the patch and i love it even more after playing on the jedi v merc server
:D:D:D:D:D
it was FUN FUN FUUUUUUUUUUUN

Lord Briss
05-09-2002, 10:10 PM
Hi ChangKhan[RAVEN] and all


Raven - thanks for a great game. It tops any FPS I've ever played. BUT I'd like to say: please continue to take notice of the fair-sized minority on these forums who think that you've changed some elements of the game for the worse in this patch; just because lots of people are happy now doesnt necessarily mean that the game has improved - it just means that you've catered more for the most common player-type in the game.

As a result IMO the MP gameplay has become more repetitive, less varied and definitely more to do with running headlong into a crowd spinning your blue/yellow stance saber around.

Let me briefly explain:
In the original version the styles had more between them: blue being very fast but least damaging, red being heavy, slow but powerful and far-reaching, with yellow being nicely placed in the middle.
But now there's less space between them: blue and yellow are almost the same tactically speaking and in terms of speed and strength, and red is no longer a radically different style as it used to be - it's the weakest style to adopt by a long way; leading to servers full of blue and yellow style only.

In terms of gameplay the end result is blandness of style. There are plenty of people on these forums who will whinge about red-only saberists etc, but the great thing about the original game was this:
- if you were a blue saberist and you came up against a yellow then you would have to adjust your style - get up close but pick your time to strike carefully and back off
- if you were a yellow or a blue against a red then (despite the whines of anti-red people on these forums) there were ways to adjust your strategy to counter their attacks as well.

What the lastest patch has done is cater for the lowest common denominator: the fast attack - theres no need for people to adjust their strategies because the gap has closed between the styles to the point where everyone is running around spinning their sabers quickly - it's prevalent because it's a winning stance, like the much maligned red stance noobie attacks used to be.

I'm not saying the red stance didnt need tweaking - it did, but you've made saber style choice almost irrelevant and reduced the game to an auto-blocking spin-fest.

Please please please make the next patch so that the gap between each stance (in terms of strength and speed) are wider, so that should force players to have to adopt new strategies when they come across different opponents - rather than stick to the one they know best all the time.

In the interests of making JKII less bland
Lord Briss

Solo4114
05-09-2002, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX


wrong. Play Dark. You'll see what i mean.

...

Correct.

...

I'm not going to bother with the rest. I'll save it for the new *ASC* site, which is going back up soon. It suffices to say that you're off-base on some of your points. On others, you're 180-degrees opposite of the truth. I have numbers to back up my point of view. You either do not have such or are keeping them to yourself. Either way, watch for the posting of my new guide--I will state and prove my points.

Ok, just a few quick thoughts and responses.

1.) You're entitled to your opinion. I'm not getting down on you about that.

2.) I don't know what the ASC site is. Could you explain that?

3.) This is perhaps the most important part of my response. First, much of what I posted was my opinion. As such, I don't NEED to prove it, and you CAN'T prove otherwise. It's an opinion, not empirical evidence. I can't really be "off-base" on my own opinions, nor can I be 180 degrees opposite of the truth of my opinions; that wouldn't make any sense.

4.) You say you have figures and statistics and such. First off, I'm not even sure what about my original post you feel you need to bring this up for. Unless you're talking about damage figures or force consumption which, you're right, I haven't bothered to calculate, mostly because I'm working based on a relative feel of the game. The sabres are a bit weaker now in terms of the damge they deal out, but I don't really care that much. I still enjoy the game. I don't really know what else you'd need statistics for to offer as counter-proof to my mostly opinion-based post, but go for it if you've got some magical piece of evidence that will totally destroy my opinions. One bit of advice, though: cite your source for your statistics. If you say, "80% of all gamers in JK2 are gunners. 77% of those gunners hate the patch. Etc.," I'll respond by saying "Did you know that 46.89% of all statistics are made up?" Provide proof for arguments, whatever they may be, and cite a reliable source or provide folks with a reliable means to test and replicate your own results. Just some friendly advice re: persuasion. :)

Jellybelly
05-09-2002, 10:47 PM
Originally posted by Nill the Mean
To JellyBelly:

Good pointers...
It would be nice I suppose, but I still think it wouldn't work in theory. The remaining factor I'm concerned about is what if the servers you normally always connect to start using options you don't like? If the jolt.co.uk servers started using certain things I didn't like then I would be deprived of say, 5 servers already. The list of places where I get a good ping doesn't stretch forever AND I have ADSL... That is why I think it would be better for one general game, which is very good. Makes everything a lot simpler. And for that we just need to give the right pointers to Raven for the next patch. Then we wait.

I understand Your concerns Nill.

However, my concern is for the community as a whole. What You might not like, someone else does...and vice versa.

Your argument is mainly based on Your subjective opinion. Now...who is to decide what is a "very good one general game" for example? To agree on what is "good" is the very knot of this whole issue in the first place, and it is yet to be solved.

I believe serverside options would solve this problem to a great extent, and I think the benefits of giving people a chance to find what they really want, will more than compensate for any efforts that might be required in finding it.

Also, I think Your concern in all fairness has to be put in relation to how picky You are under current conditions, not to any "would be" scenario.

As serverside options would supply You with more options, it also goes without saying that You would afford to be more picky...thus having a harder time finding exactly what You "want" according to Your increased demands.

More options require more choices...but theres nothing to suggest that the amount of servers wouldn't increase over time. In fact, having a wider range of possibilities to tailor Your server to Your specific needs...is more likely to even further encourage people to setup their own servers more than anything else.

And again...once You found good servers, adding them to Your favorites will be no problem. The possibility of getting something that might even be perfect acording to Your specific wishes, makes scanning a few servers once in a while a small price to pay indeed.

Try to look at the bigger picture in a long run perspective...the definition of what is "good" is highly subjective and differs greatly from person to person. That is why it is more beneficial to the community as a whole to have individual choices like serverside options instead of one static patch.

Cheers

Jellybelly

technobot
05-09-2002, 11:05 PM
I love the gross generalisations present on these forums.

Player A declares: EVERYBODY HATES THE PATCH. YOU F@CKED UP, RAVEN. CHANGE IT BACK BECAUSE EVERYONE WILL STOP PLAYING THE GAME.

Player B rebuts: EVERYONE LOVES THE PATCH. EVERYONE WHO COMPLAINS ABOUT IT HAS NO SKILL.

Player A counters: NO, IT'S THE PATCH LOVERS WHO HAVE NO SKILL.

I didn't realize Players A and B both have the ability to read the minds of everyone who has ever played this game; they should both put their talents to better use than wasting them on a silly videogame.

I think it's great that (most of us) live in democracies which has the great attribute (and utter failing) of entitling every idiot to their opinion. I think it's lovely that all of you seem to enjoy expressing your opinion. I know it's been said before, but I think it's ridiculous that (some of you) have the ability to speak for the entire world as a whole.

the best point I've read is that if you had NEVER played the game, you would have nothing to complain about. some of us like the patch, some of us hate it, some of us (believe it or not) could NOT CARE LESS. it's just a game!

all of our feedback, whether we agree with each other or not, is helping the game evolve. this will NOT be the last patch, nor will the next patch be the last (IMHO)... so just remember there are more changes to come, and maybe someday soon the game will have reached a point where most (because it's impossible to make everyone happy) people agree that the changes have all been for the best.

and hey, I'm just happy to finally play the ultimate Star Wars mod for Quake :)

(I think the patch is fine, I might be an idiot but I get my opinion too!)

[D12]SirBanshee
05-10-2002, 12:16 AM
I think technobot made some good points with that post.

Generally speaking I'd say the majority of pure saberists are happy with the update. (Uber backlash pending) Also the difference in stances is a bit weird in my opinion. Blue seems to have been beefed up more than it should be.

I think a lot of people are viewing the gunners as people who ran into FFA games looking to rack up kills by hitting groups of unsuspecting saberists. I don't think that is the case with the gunners who are posting here about their complaints with the update. I know it happens though, but probably not with the CTFers. But in FFA, its anything goes, so people have to be on their gaurd. So complaing about unbalance when a missle hits someone while they're dueling in a FFA(guns/weapons/forces) isn't founded.

Raven should take into consideration the uproar the CTF Ladders/Clans are in though. The fact that many of these ladders are falling apart and reorganizing should provide substantial evidence that something is wrong here. 64 clans reverting to 1.02 is a large group of people.

One point you can also account to some of this anger is that these changes weren't mentioned. The readme on 1.03 doesn't mention the gun changes AT ALL(Correct me if I'm wrong). That seems very deceptive to me. The saber changes were described in detail. I think the gunners should've been forwarned about the guns changes.

No Force, forces. Saber Throw, Saber Style, and Saber Defend(Iffy). I think the fact that Force Throw can now be done in NF games is unbalancing the games. In Force games I don't see a problem with this change but for strictly NF games it probably shouldn't have been incorparated as a option. No Force means No Force.

For the record I'm a saberist, dueler, gunner, and CTFer(FFA Saberist first and foremost though). No force all around. I can't comment on the FF so I won't. But I think perhaps Raven should've responded by now to the guns issues. At least some of the reasoning behind it.

This is just some basic opinions.

NewBJedi
05-10-2002, 02:14 AM
My very last post in the forums - tired of all the bickering - and I fully agree and am set on what Jellybelly says - server-side options ARE the solution - here's my last post as in Game Feed Back - See you all on the servers - PM if you want to discuss:

Patch gripes/suggestions/wishlist:

This is my final comment/gripe/suggestion on the game.

List of issues by levels of importance:

1. Backflip/Kick is nerfed. GRRRR!!!! Kick is next to
impossible to use now.

2. Drain is nerfed. Hurray more 'other force' spam!

3. Grip is nerfed - I just loved fighting grip! It was fun!

4. Saber defense is way too high - though the attack is actually much better and more accurate.

Suggestions on how to fix these problems:

A. Fixing backflip/kick can be done two different ways:

1. Server-side option/rule:

g_backflipkick 0/1

g_backflipkick 0 = Double Tap (default)
g_backflipkick 1 = Single Tap

Or:

2. Clientside Jump Control - toggle

Backflip Double-Tap on/off

On = 1.03 style (default)
Off = 1.02 style

B. Fix For Nerfed Forces:

Easy solution:

Modify the rule "g_MaxForceRank":

You can either:

1. Add more Force Ranks - with more selections.

Or:

2. Change the Force Rank System to something as follows:

g_MaxForceRank should have 0 0 0 - 3 digits.

1st set = Neurtral/universal force powers: 0 - 8

2nd set = Light Force Powers: 0 - 8

3rd set = Dark Force Powers: 0 - 8

0 - 7 = normal settings - 1.03

8 = 1.02's 7 (max forces).

3. Allow auto-blocking to be turned on and off:

g_saberautoblock 0/1

g_saberautoblock 1 = 1.03 saber autoblock (default)

g_saberautoblock 0 = 1.02 saber autoblock

or:

g_saberautoblock 0 = Manual saber block (requiring key bind for block)

4. Weapon and ammo respawns to be different:

Change g_weapondisable to g_weapons:

g_weapons 0 - 2

g_weapons 0 = no weapons
g_weapons 1 = 1.03 style (default)
g_weapons 2 = 1.02 style

Allow the in-game browser to show these important changes on the side of each server - perhaps in graph form, with the important options clearly displayed - on a side column when someone clicks on a server.

Allow the in-game browser to filter out these kinds of options - in and advanced options button/area.

People using ASE or GS can easily filter these out via modifiers and filters.

Okay - you won't be hearing from me again.

Bye.

cc'ed to Raven and:

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52392


Originally posted by Jellybelly


I understand Your concerns Nill.

However, my concern is for the community as a whole. What You might not like, someone else does...and vice versa.

Your argument is mainly based on Your subjective opinion. Now...who is to decide what is a "very good one general game" for example? To agree on what is "good" is the very knot of this whole issue in the first place, and it is yet to be solved.

I believe serverside options would solve this problem to a great extent, and I think the benefits of giving people a chance to find what they really want, will more than compensate for any efforts that might be required in finding it.

Also, I think Your concern in all fairness has to be put in relation to how picky You are under current conditions, not to any "would be" scenario.

As serverside options would supply You with more options, it also goes without saying that You would afford to be more picky...thus having a harder time finding exactly what You "want" according to Your increased demands.

More options require more choices...but theres nothing to suggest that the amount of servers wouldn't increase over time. In fact, having a wider range of possibilities to tailor Your server to Your specific needs...is more likely to even further encourage people to setup their own servers more than anything else.

And again...once You found good servers, adding them to Your favorites will be no problem. The possibility of getting something that might even be perfect acording to Your specific wishes, makes scanning a few servers once in a while a small price to pay indeed.

Try to look at the bigger picture in a long run perspective...the definition of what is "good" is highly subjective and differs greatly from person to person. That is why it is more beneficial to the community as a whole to have individual choices like serverside options instead of one static patch.

Cheers

Jellybelly

Lucky
05-10-2002, 04:44 AM
CTF requires you to have at least *one* long range weapon other than a sniper rifle, and the closest thing this game had before that was the repeater.

The repeater was much more useful for long distance shots than for close up spamming. The golan was much better for filling a hallway with lil nasty explosive balls.

If I get 12 shots with the repeater, with rage and speed, and the opposing team gets a combined 12 (same respawn rates) Then I'm going to have a much easier time getting thru their base that I would have before.

Pull is a decent tactic for stoping a rage/speed user, grip is even better, however with energize both of those are negated. Its hard to get a lock on someone moving that fast, I can do it, you can probably do it, the majority of the people on the pubs CAN'T do it.

Honestly, do you think the guns got nerfed just because of the inherent abilities? They all shoot crooked, none of them are good long range weapons, you can barely hit the broad side of a barn with most of them, not because of your personal aim, but because of their quirky innacuracy.

They got nerfed because of the sabers getting nerfed. The sabers were definitely NERFED. You can make claims about them requiring more skill, and this is definitely true, however if it takes longer to kill someone with somthing, its been nerfed.

What I really want is a gun that shoots straight and kills people. Already, none of the guns really did this with any regularity. Still, CTF was playable because there was enough ammo for you to keep trying to kill someone, even if you weren't having a lot of success doing it.

Now, you don't have enough ammo to kill someone with rage or protection. Sure, u can do somthing creative and team based and kill them. Not a lot of people on the pubs are going to do this, most of the folks on the pubs aren't really sure where the flags are.

Sure, you can use the force. But if all yer using is the force, whats the value in using one of the guns? Why pick it up? Whats it doing for you if you have to wait for someone with rage speed to get within pull range for you to even BEGIN to counter their attack.

Why not simply pull them over and backstab?

Most CTF'rs wanted *more* ammo and *more* lethal force. Now we have less of both and its difficult to really defend a flag. And it seems a little pointless to even pick up a gun.

As for the area effect qualities of the weapons, dets and rockets are much more powerful than either the repeater or the golan. The golan and the repeater already have ridiculous drawbacks. Neither one is a straight shot.

We want guns than blow crap up and kill people. This is what the guns are supposed to do. They aren't solely supposed to provide interesting challenges for saberists.

The guns got nerfed because the sabers got nerfed. End o story.

Don't get me wrong, the other guns have value. A lot of value. My favorite weapon is the strifle. The strifle is almost useless now because of the new blocking system. Even so, they were only useful in 1.02 in a very up close environment. You don't get a lot of long distance kills with the bowcaster or the strifle.

Now the most effective long distance weapon you can use while moving is the bryar. Yippe.


Lucky

striderx2048
05-10-2002, 09:11 AM
why are start using jedivsmerc mode in the ctf game
now not everyone will have the force ha!

nemis111
05-10-2002, 11:03 AM
You have taken out a major element from the game raven, FUN !!!!! IT"S ALL GONE NOW, it's FKING BORING NOW !!! WTF ARE U DEVELOPERS THINKING.

Xombie
05-10-2002, 12:27 PM
I'd like to take this time to applaud the people being polite and reasonable in their complaints. They're most likely the only people that Raven will actually bother reading. And with damn good reason.

Here's a few tips, guys:

1.) As soon as you use the word "gay" or have "*****" in a post.... the dev will most likely skip over it.
You've already paid for the game. Your actual transaction is over. They have no obligation to sit there and take insults from someone on a message board. They DO have an obligation to make the game better. So they'll listen to those who want to be reasonable and make the game better, not just make the game better for themselves.

2.) There's complaining, and there's whining. If they don't take whining from their own children, why would they take it from you? Contrary to popular belief, there IS a way to complain without being a jerk about it.

3.) You are NOT (n-o-t, not) married to a weapon in the game. If you happen to not like the way a weapon works, use one that you have more fun with. Ask for them to make the other weapon better, and wait it out until the next patch. If you really really want to use the other weapon, then either stay with the old patch or get used to it being harder. Someone with "skill" can adapt. If you can't adapt to some changes, how can you claim to have any "skill" at all? Do what is most fun for you. You're not beign tortured into any decision here.

4.) Clans didn't pay more for the game than anyone else. Nor do they support the community more than anyone else. Clans TEND to be more elitist than the rest of the community (and yes, i'm in clans and competitive play, so I am speaking from experience). Saying "THE CLANS DON'T LIKE IT" isn't going to intimidate the developers. At all.

5.) They do want to fix the game, and don't happen to have a bias towards those who use a certain weapon. They MADE all the weapons. If they didn't like a weapon, they probably wouldn't have put it in the game. They aren't sitting back going "HAW HAW! Look at dem silly gun uzerz! We shur showd thm!". You all paid for the game, they want ALL of you to buy their future games, so they are going to try to make it an enjoyable experience for as many people as possible. Their job is to make games for people. They aren't going to try to screw you over for the sake of screwing you over.

Developers will listen to those who help them the most. Calling them gay isn't helping them. Insulting them isn't helping them. Going "this entire patch sucks" doesn't help them either. And certainly refraining from telling them what they're doing RIGHT just for the sake of being stubborn, is not helping them.

You should have learned this in kindergarten: Play nice with others, and you'll get to use more toys.

fitzwilliamd
05-10-2002, 01:52 PM
You should have learned this in kindergarten: Play nice with others, and you'll get to use more toys.

Very good point!

However, installing this patch is quite similar to being forced to reenroll in Kindergarten. Though, quite frankly, finger painting is somewhat more entertaining than the spam, back attack nonsense that is the bulk of the new 'saber artistry.'

Skill is out, spam is in. After having perfectly timed, well-executed attacks pass through your assailant without doing any damage, you become somewhat disheartened. Aim, timing, artistry are useless if your strikes are autoblocked and incapable of doing reasonable damage.

dol-Egon
05-10-2002, 02:11 PM
Last night (after my post above), I played on several servers and was very disappointed to see a new whoring mechanism: the backstab. This move has replaced the DFA as a whore-monger's choice move, and it is just as deadly...in fact the heavy-stance version is a 1 hit kill.

So basically, the backstab needs to be nerfed. :fett:

IronJedi Kaga
05-10-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Lucky
CTF requires you to have at least *one* long range weapon other than a sniper rifle, and the closest thing this game had before that was the repeater.

The repeater was much more useful for long distance shots than for close up spamming. The golan was much better for filling a hallway with lil nasty explosive balls.

If I get 12 shots with the repeater, with rage and speed, and the opposing team gets a combined 12 (same respawn rates) Then I'm going to have a much easier time getting thru their base that I would have before.

Pull is a decent tactic for stoping a rage/speed user, grip is even better, however with energize both of those are negated. Its hard to get a lock on someone moving that fast, I can do it, you can probably do it, the majority of the people on the pubs CAN'T do it.

Honestly, do you think the guns got nerfed just because of the inherent abilities? They all shoot crooked, none of them are good long range weapons, you can barely hit the broad side of a barn with most of them, not because of your personal aim, but because of their quirky innacuracy.

They got nerfed because of the sabers getting nerfed. The sabers were definitely NERFED. You can make claims about them requiring more skill, and this is definitely true, however if it takes longer to kill someone with somthing, its been nerfed.

What I really want is a gun that shoots straight and kills people. Already, none of the guns really did this with any regularity. Still, CTF was playable because there was enough ammo for you to keep trying to kill someone, even if you weren't having a lot of success doing it.

Now, you don't have enough ammo to kill someone with rage or protection. Sure, u can do somthing creative and team based and kill them. Not a lot of people on the pubs are going to do this, most of the folks on the pubs aren't really sure where the flags are.

Sure, you can use the force. But if all yer using is the force, whats the value in using one of the guns? Why pick it up? Whats it doing for you if you have to wait for someone with rage speed to get within pull range for you to even BEGIN to counter their attack.

Why not simply pull them over and backstab?

Most CTF'rs wanted *more* ammo and *more* lethal force. Now we have less of both and its difficult to really defend a flag. And it seems a little pointless to even pick up a gun.

As for the area effect qualities of the weapons, dets and rockets are much more powerful than either the repeater or the golan. The golan and the repeater already have ridiculous drawbacks. Neither one is a straight shot.

We want guns than blow crap up and kill people. This is what the guns are supposed to do. They aren't solely supposed to provide interesting challenges for saberists.

The guns got nerfed because the sabers got nerfed. End o story.

Don't get me wrong, the other guns have value. A lot of value. My favorite weapon is the strifle. The strifle is almost useless now because of the new blocking system. Even so, they were only useful in 1.02 in a very up close environment. You don't get a lot of long distance kills with the bowcaster or the strifle.

Now the most effective long distance weapon you can use while moving is the bryar. Yippe.


Lucky

Er the game has several long range weapons outside of the repeater and disrupter. The bryar, bowcaster, st rifle, and rocket launcher are all long range. I'd mention the demp but granted thats not in ctf.

As for your 12 shot analysis, what is the defense doing in the time that it takes you to aquire twelve shots? They have the same time available to get the ammo necessary to have more than 12 combined shots. And a couple of decent shots on defense will be able to kill you between 3-5 shots if your not protected dark raged.

As for your pull/push and grip negated by engergize, i disagree. All pull and push take to work is that you be doing a certain action and if you do the dark rage/speed and fire at your feet as you described earlier, energize may help with your force, but it does nothing to help you hold on to your weapon if you get caught with pull or push while firing it. As for the majority on pubs, thats only a matter of time. Remember the game has been out for only about a month and half at this point.

As for the crookedness, er I have no idea what your talking about. Bow caster, disrupter, st rifle, hell all the guns fire straight for me. In addition I've seen people make accurate shots from halfway accross the map with an st rifle secondary mode. No insult meant with this comment, but do you have the crosshair turned off? I dont find that any of the guns are crooked firing. The only weapon with odd collision detection is the lightsaber.

As for if the force comment, I'm not saying only use the force. Youhave to use it in combination with another weapon. Such as pull weapon from rager, and push or grip and such until rage wears off.

As for dets and rockets vs golan and repeater, repeater secondary kills in 3 shots, golan secondary 2 (granted this is on average, always are exceptions). Rockets kill in 2 shots most of the time, thermals 2 to 3. The detonator packs are usually 1 hit kills, but thena gain unlike the others your opponent has to run into the blast radius.

As for the st rifle, I'm assuming you mean against the saber. But the st rifle has ALWAYS been useless against a lightsaber. Anyone with level 3 saber defese can stand there and block the st rifle all day, in either version of the game. However if the person didnt have a saber out the st rifle is one of the top weapons in the game, its secondary mode rivals the repeaters primary. I actually think it does more damage but havent looked into actual numbers so won't make that claim just yet.

IronJedi Kaga
05-10-2002, 04:43 PM
Originally posted by dol-Egon
Last night (after my post above), I played on several servers and was very disappointed to see a new whoring mechanism: the backstab. This move has replaced the DFA as a whore-monger's choice move, and it is just as deadly...in fact the heavy-stance version is a 1 hit kill.

So basically, the backstab needs to be nerfed. :fett:

Not a concern in nf sabers :P

jpinard
05-10-2002, 09:17 PM
I think the new patch is excellent! Thank you from a sabre dual specialist!

Boreas
05-10-2002, 09:17 PM
So we are expected to only play NF Saber only servers?

GG.

Lucky
05-11-2002, 01:26 AM
My drunken perspective on your post: yer an idiot newb who doesn't know how to play.

Albeit, im quit trashed at the moment, yer a total fool. 2ndary strifle is stuttered to make it innacurate, bowcaster/rockets are all too slowmoving to work as long distance weapons.

The bryar almost moves fast enough, but yer a friggin idiot for yet another reason if you think thats a decent method of killing someone.

The strifle is crooked, the primary repeater is crooked, the bowcaster is fanned, the golan primary dissipates, thermals don't go far enough. Maybe you could wave your saber at them insultingly.

You simply can't kill someone from that far away anymore. And thats the goddamn point. Please don't address me anymore and I promise to quit arguing my case on these forums. In my current drunken mindset, I'm sure that the community will keep this game in the gutter and keep it unplayable in any sort of competitive context.

I played JK for 4 years, only to be lamed to death by a bunch of wanking newbs 1 month into what I had hoped was another 4 year experience. I'm sure yer terrible at FPS's, and any continued discussion about tactics would be akin to hitting myself repeatedly in the face with my beer can.

Please god, just flood the world with beer, so that once and for all, everyone is on the same goddamn page.


Lucky

/end drunken rant.

Nill the Mean
05-11-2002, 01:34 AM
Please god, just flood the world with beer, so that once and for all, everyone is on the same goddamn page.

Hallelujah!

:D

Flaming_Saber
05-11-2002, 04:04 AM
Thanks for that detailed message. Sheesh, you think with some
of these JKII players you went and stabbed them in the back with
a lightsaber with the patch 1.03. Don't get me wrong criticsm is good but these anti-patchers have gone a bit over the edge if you ask me. It's only a game I keep telling them. But they seem to have taken the release of the patch as a personal affront and at any minute are willing to commit Jedi Suicide over it :).
Personaly, I like the patch especially the fix for Illegal models and the abilty to sneak in force powers when the Mp session didn't allow it. But the biggest fix I really appreciate is the AMD issue. For a couple of days I kept playing around with my firewall and other stuff because I could not host a game but now I can thanks. And a big thumbs up for the EAX add on. The sound is totally amazing even on low quality. For those who don't have an EAX card you don't know what you are missing. With that I'll notch this game rating from a 10 to an 11! Thanks again.

P.S. one thing I would like to see in any upcoming patch is when you are typing or in the console there is a keyboard Icon on top
of your head. There is one problem with this: not all players are
honorable. I know I've been killed regardless of that Icon. That to me is a cheesy kill. Could you possibly make it so that when the Icon is on your head you are also unable to be hit and killed.

Flaming_Saber
05-11-2002, 04:17 AM
Um, hello, people that same cheesy backslash\backstab move is
also in version 1.02! how many times do you gamers need to be told this. Look at the other posts in the main forum and you will find this out. Many people went back to v1.02 and tried that same cheesy move and it worked! It's just a game! To hell with the score! The score is not the end all and be all of your existance! Play it and be happy already that a JKII game was even developed! Do the cheesy moves yourselves! I'll even give you one: with the light stance hold the crouch key walk foward pressing the fire button and you'll do a foward upward slash you can kill someone with two of these hits easily! I've done it myself.

Boreas
05-11-2002, 05:49 AM
Flaming_Saber: What a moron.

You want us all to run around and use cheap tactics?

What a fun game that would be.



BTW, the backslash move in 1.02 was much less powerful as general saber attacks hurt more and you blocked less so if you ran around backwards you were sure do die before you could get the move off. Not so in 1.03.

Boreas
05-11-2002, 05:50 AM
"Could you possibly make it so that when the Icon is on your head you are also unable to be hit and killed."

Can you say god mode? :bdroid2:

MBS
05-11-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by bellenberger
The problem with guns is that the secondary fire of the repeater and the fletch was WAY overpowered.

no....... the problem with guns is THAT THERE IS NO CONCUSSION RIFLE!!!


I so miss that gun from Jedi Knight.

Cracked
05-11-2002, 02:16 PM
Originally posted by Boreas
"Could you possibly make it so that when the Icon is on your head you are also unable to be hit and killed."

Can you say god mode? :bdroid2:

That would be a good idea if nobody ever exploited anything or tried to cheat, and we all know no one does that:rolleyes: I can easily see myself in a battle, just about to slice someone in half, and suddenly this icon pops up over their head and my saber just goes right through them, and then the icon pops off.

Flaming_Saber
05-11-2002, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by Boreas
"Could you possibly make it so that when the Icon is on your head you are also unable to be hit and killed."

Can you say god mode? :bdroid2:


Now I didn't say GOD MODE. The method of the ICON is a good idea and I'll restate it again: If you gamers where not such a bunch of cheese balls just to get that extra point for an easy kill I would not have recommended it. Now I did come up with another idea. As well as making the icon a total pause for the player where they can't be hit put a timer on the pause like 60 seconds that should give the player more than enough time to type their message or do what they need to do in the command mode.

If you've played the game you know this was implemented in a challenge. While the two players are fighting their challenge no one else can hurt them.

Flaming_Saber
05-11-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by Boreas
Flaming_Saber: What a moron.

You want us all to run around and use cheap tactics?

What a fun game that would be.



Well, if we all did them, no one can complain anymore!
Bringing the game back to an even level. As for the fun of the game someone must still be having have fun even with the few who use the cheap tactics since there are many people still playing this game like me. And I'm still having fun in the game.
But I would think in time that even the cheesy players who use the cheap tricks having the cheap tricks pulled on them would come to realize that it isn't fun anymore and go back to a proper fight. Remember, if you host the game, set the ground rules: no cheap tricks anyone caught doing them will get kicked out of the game. I'm sure they'd get tired of that also and stay away from the cheap tricks. Until these issues are rectified by another patch, it's all we can do for now. We can argue this until we are all blue in the face remember why bother it's only a game the issues with the patch I'm sure by now it's being worked on since the guys from raven have been reading these posts take a chill for now and go play!



BTW, the backslash move in 1.02 was much less powerful as general saber attacks hurt more and you blocked less so if you ran around backwards you were sure do die before you could get the move off. Not so in 1.03.

Well I've never experimented with v1.02 versus 1.03 so I can not comment about the power difference.

Flaming_Saber
05-11-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Cracked


That would be a good idea if nobody ever exploited anything or tried to cheat, and we all know no one does that:rolleyes: I can easily see myself in a battle, just about to slice someone in half, and suddenly this icon pops up over their head and my saber just goes right through them, and then the icon pops off.


That would deserve a big kick out of the game! Put a 30 or 60 sec timer pause into that where the player can't come out of the pause until the timer is up and if they are still chatting when the timer is up then they are fair game. And also have two icons: one to let the players know you are in a timer pause and a second icon for when the timer is up. At least that would give someone who is legitimately chatting a fair chance while the cheeser would have something to worry about since all you need do is wait behind him and get him.

WD Gambit
05-11-2002, 09:39 PM
ok I posted this else where so I might as well post it here to.

I dont know how many posts have been devoted to people bitching at the changes made in 1.03 or people bitching about those people.
The fact is the patch did not consider all the factors in this game,the SP style sabering was a mistake the high block % and lowered saber damage can make battles long and drawn out barring the use of backstab. CTF is now totaly unplayable with both area of effect guns having such large ammo consumptions and chasing a flag carrier around with a saber or trying to shot them with a blaster type weapon is not an option,also drain and heal are worthless now when they used to be overpowered some middle ground should be found here.
Changes need to be made for a better balance between both patches such as.
-lower blocking %
-saber damage being returned to prepatch.
-backstab damage being made = to a hvy stance slash might be effective.
-ammo cost needs to be lowered on both the golan and the repeater's 2nd fire.
-heal/drain need to be balanced better so they have some actual use.

I am sure there is something else that is slipping my mind at this time but in a nut shell these changes will make a majority of the people playing this game happy.

Obi-Wan X
05-12-2002, 12:38 AM
It seemed as if Raven didn't put too much time into the patch :). The main thing was actually about the DFA, sure some whined about "drain whores" and "heal sluts", but not to a point in which they wanted it nerfed or changed. I agree with absorb though, at least about being hidden at least. For those who played JK1 this should be no problem, absorb could never be seen in Jk1. Stop whining about absorb being "hidden" now. If your too stupid not to test if he has absorb on then piss off and go grab some cogs and 10 dollars. Perhaps then you can enjoy the zone, JK1 1 hits, and lag. :mad: *bows* http://images.amazon.com/images/G/covers/1/55/811/877/1558118772.m.gifObi-Wan Kenobi: Don't defy the council, Master, not again.
Qui-Gon Jinn: I will do what I must, Obi-Wan. :saberb:

ArmchairAthlete
05-12-2002, 01:50 AM
Running around backwards trying to tag someone with your backstab is pretty silly... That's what many do for kills now (with some Pull/grip if force is on). Feels really stupid compared to how we used to fight.

Saber Throwing in No-Force duel servers? You can't throw a saber like that without use of the force. And this ruins all of these servers. Thanks.




Nice patch you got there, there are other problems I haven't mentioned but you get the idea. Go to the Anti-saberist website for more...

Caster
05-12-2002, 02:50 AM
Honestly, are you people crippled that much by the patch? Or just slightly handicapped?

I'm a full force using gunner and saberist pre-patch, I kicked everyone's asses. Now, post-patch, I'm still a full force using gunner and saberist and I STILL kick everyone's asses. In my opinion most of the changes are negliable and almost hardly noticeable.

Saber combat. Sure, more blocking, takes longer. But I can still kill some one within fifteen seconds. Heavy and light special attacks are the way they always should've been (and yes, I have killed people with the DFA attack). The only thing that needs to be looked at now are the backward attacks. Currently, they're a bit too fast and unavoidable if you're on the ground. I'd say make the animation about 0.25 of a second slower.

Heal and Drain. Perfect as they are now. Instead of using them every 10 seconds, I use them every 20. I can survive another 10 seconds.

Grip. Good job Raven! Though for some weird reason, sometimes people will still throwing me around at speeds up to and beyond 200mph.

Guns. I still use them, and I still kill people with them, I hardly notice the less times I can use the secondary attacks with the heavy repeater and the flechette. All I have to do is take an extra second to aim better. Or I could just... You know, go into the next room and pick up some ammo.

CTF games. I'm still getting my ass smashed by the heavy repeater actually... ^_^

Saber blocking. Is it just me or do sabers only block 95% of all the bolts, blaster shots fired in their direction? I like it, now the saberists aren't completely invincible against non-explosive guns if they dont attack/swing their saber.

-Caster

revertto1.2
05-12-2002, 04:12 AM
Chang you suck

Solo4114
05-12-2002, 04:36 AM
You know, I don't know what all the hubbub is about CTF.

I played CTF last night on a server with guns and force enabled and had a blast. There was more than enough ammo. Wanna know why? IT RESPAWNS. Just go back and grab more, man. Yes, the guns use up ammo quickly, but SFW? There's still the same amount of ammo packs out there to be had.

And if you're so worried about not being able to use the repeater's secondary or the missile launcher (which, to my knowledge, STILL only fires one missile at a time) try using the OTHER WEAPONS. Yes, there ARE other weapons in the game.

I had about six kills last night using the sniper rifle on defense. I got a few kills from dropping and detonating detpacks while guys were chasing me. When playing D on a map, I also used the detpacks as a decoy. I dropped three or four of 'em by the flag, knowing that there were snipers covering the base as well. When the enemy ran up to get the flag, he was dead the minute he entered the room. Why? Because he stopped to shoot the detpacks. In that moment of hesitation, he was disintegrated. Either way, he would've been toast. I would've blown the detpacks and killed him, or he would've been sniped.

Guns are not useless.

Force powers are not useless either, despite people complaining about them. I saw multiple people kill and be killed by grip tonight. Yes, it can be absorbed away, and yes, it can be countered with a push or sabre throw, but it still works to immobilize the enemy. Drain still works as well. I still get health back when I drain a guy. It just doesn't suck down ALL his force in a matter of seconds. It's balanced now. Absorb is balanced so that you can't just wait until it runs out to drain and grip your enemy to death. You actually have to try using the force on them first to see if they're using it. Lightning still kicks ass for you darksiders out there, too. And you know what? Absorb won't counter it all the time. A lot of people don't know this because people max out absorb and max out lightning, but if you have lightning 3 and the other guy has absorb 2, he'll gain force back when you zap him, but he'll STILL take damage. It happened to me earlier and I couldn't figure out why, until I leveled the playing field and reassigned force points to absorb 3. Look for servers that play at Jedi Guardian or Jedi Knight level, instead of the ubiquitous Jedi Master servers out there. Trust me, force is definitely still useful.

The only thing at this point that I see needing to be tweaked really is the backstab thing (which is being looked into) and maybe a reduction in the blocking radius. IE: from the current 180 degrees in front to maybe 90 degrees in front, using blue stance (and decreasing gradually, depending on if you're moving and on the stance you use). Actually, I don't even mind the blocking the way it is. I actually LIKE long sabre fights. they're more intense and satisfying to win to me. And I don't mind losing either, if I know it was a good fight.

So really, my attitude is that if they fix the backstab the game will be perfect.

Backstab, to me at least, needs the following changes:

1.) Make it impossible to rotate while doing the move. As with blue stance, if you do the move, you're frozen in position.
2.) Nerf the damage. Yeah, that's right. Nerf it. No one hit kills in this game, please, unless we make ALL hits one hit kills. I don't mind it dealing out good damage, just don't make it an uber move. There should not be uber moves in this game, since we've seen clearly that some silly bastards out there will spend their entire game doing NOTHING but that one move.
3.) Slow down the speed just a touch. Not much, just by a hair maybe.

DigitalVapor
05-12-2002, 07:47 AM
I am going to skip the rest of the pages for this thread because im getting pissed (and tired of reading cause its 4:17 AM) ALL OF YOU NEED TO STFU AND LEAVE RAVEN THE HELL ALONE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!. GOD!! I AM SO SICK OF HEARING THE B**CHING AND WHINING FOM BOTH SIDES!!! DARTH NOODLES SAID IT BUT IM SAING IT AGAIN....YOU LAZY LITTLE @$$ HOLES WHO WHINE ABOUT THE FLIP KICK ARE PATHETIC! I SAY ITS A GOOD IDEA, NOW YOU GET TO KEEP THE FLIP KICK BUT WONT BACKFLIP YOURSELF OFF A CLIFF WHEN JUMPING UP ON A CRATE. I HAVENT EVEN INSTALLED THE PATCH YET BUT FROM WHAT CHANG SAID, ITS IS CERTAINLY A GREAT PATCH. I AM NOT A HARDCORE SABERIST. YEAH I ALMOST ALWAYS USE THE SABER BUT I FIND GUNS COME IN HANDY AS WELL. THAT SAID, I HAVE ALWAYS DESPISED THE STRONG STANCE. IT WASNT A FLAW FOR ME, JUST TOO SLOW FOR MY TASTES. I SEE ALOT OF STRONG STANCE LOVERS (ESPECIALY DFA FREAKS) OUT THERE WHO PROBABLY B**CH THE MOST BECAUSE RAVEN BALANCED THE RED STANCE OUT. THIS MEANS LEARN TO USE OTHER STANCES TOO MORONS!!!! AS FOR THE GUNS, I DOUBT THEY MADE ANY CHANGES TO THEM. WHY?? THERE WAS VERY LITTLE WRONG WITH THEM TO BEGIN WITH. FOR THOSE WHO B**CH THAT THE GAME IS "JEDI" KNIGHT...THE GUNS ARE THERE BECAUSE THERE ARE GUNS IN STAR WARS AND IT WOULD NOT BE TRUE STAR WARS WITHOUT THEM, AND REMEMBER JEDI ARE KNOWN TO USE GUNS TOO OCCASIONALY WHEN GUNS ARE NECCESARY. SAME GOES FOR THOSE WHO COMPLAIN ABOUT SABERS. I NEVER REALLY USED DRAIN BECAUSE I NEVER SAW THE NEED. IT IS JUST LIKE A DARK SIDER TO HEAL HIMSELF AT HIS OPPONENTS EXPENSE, BUT IT WOULD BE MORE EVIL AND MORE EFFECTIVE TO DRAIN FROM HIS HEALTH, AFTER ALL, FORCE ENERGY RECHARGES, HEALTH DOESNT AND THAT WOULD CREATE A BALANCE BETWEEN HEAL AND DRAIN. BUT NO MATTER WHAT MY OPINION IS OF THE NEW PATCH AS WELL AS FUTURE PATCHES, I HAVE THE COMMON SENSE AND COURTESY NOT TO B**TCH AND ORDER RAVEN TO CHANGE IT!!!! HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOU JUST WENT THROUGH ALL THE HARD WORK OF MAKING A -=FREE=- PATCH FOR PEOPLE, ONLY TO HAVE THEM PISS AND MOAN, TELL YOU ITS NOT GOOD ENOUGH AND INSIST YOU CHANGE IT OR TAKE IT AWAY?? I MYSELF, AND MOST LIKELY MANY IF NOT ALL OF YOU WOULD TELL THOSE WHINING IDIOTS TO GO F**K THEMSELVES AND NEVER MAKE ANOTHER PATCH, LET THEM DEAL WITH WHAT THEY HAVE. THERES AN OLD SAYING. "DONT BITE THE HAND THAT FEEDS YOU" THINK ABOUT IT YOU F**KING PR**KS!!!!

Ok, I am now back to my normaly pleasant manner

Flaming_Saber
05-12-2002, 09:28 AM
Originally posted by DigitalVapor


A pat on the back my friend, you got it all in a nut shell. But be prepared for the Anti-patchers they will now use the argument that they have the right to bitch and whine (1st amendment) and that you are just whining yourself about them. I say ignore them and hopefully they will go away or else we will all go blue in the face arguing. That reminds me I'm late for the argument clinic!
I hope John Cleese still works there. :)

Solo4114
05-12-2002, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Flaming_Saber


A pat on the back my friend, you got it all in a nut shell. But be prepared for the Anti-patchers they will now use the argument that they have the right to bitch and whine (1st amendment) and that you are just whining yourself about them. I say ignore them and hopefully they will go away or else we will all go blue in the face arguing.

Well, they can bring up the First Amendment all they want. That argument doesn't hold water in the least. The First Amendment says that CONGRESS shall make no LAW abridging the freedom of speech, freedom of the press, or free excercise of religion. CONGRESS. LAW. Do you see any legislators making laws about this particular forum?

Put simply, when you post on a private server, especially one where you have not PAID anything to gain access, YOU HAVE NO RIGHTS. PERIOD. END OF DISCUSSION. If the mod wants to ban you because they don't like your signature, if they want to ban you because they ONLY want Nazis posting on the board, if they ban you because they ate broccoli for lunch and it didn't sit well with them, THAT IS THEIR RIGHT AND YOU CAN DO NOTHING ABOUT IT. So PLEASE, let's move on from the First Amendment argument. If you want to bitch about what rights you have, LEARN WHAT THEY ARE FIRST.

Originally posted by Flaming_Saber
That reminds me I'm late for the argument clinic!

No it doesn't. :)

Flaming_Saber
05-12-2002, 06:04 PM
Originally posted by Solo4114



No it doesn't. :)


That isn't an argument! It's just contradiction! :D



Ummm, I wasn't making an argument about the 1st amendment
nor did I even want to get into it but thanks for refressing us.
I was just making a statement to be prepared about the Anti-Patchers and it was the only thing I could think of to throw into the message at the time. I should have said freedom of expression. Not that there is anything wrong with that but post after post of griping is a bit over the top. If they would put themselves into the shoes of the guys at Raven, who are nice enough to keep supporting the game with patches, comming here and reading the gripe posts. All that the gamers need to
do is make one or two posts in calm coherent manner and express their issues about the patch and send email to raven about their displeasure with the patch and give some suggestions of tweaking it for the next patch instead of running around like C3PO crying out "We're Doomed, We're DOOMED! Speaking of Doomed I can't wait for the new DOOM. I like the patch myself and I readily agree it needs a bit more tweaking but it's still fun to play.

Anyway, it seems to me that I think everyone has gotten the idea cause the gripe posting has been tappering down a bit. But then again I don't go into all of the threads here. Don't thread on me, doh! :)

Solo4114
05-12-2002, 09:18 PM
Originally posted by Flaming_Saber



That isn't an argument! It's just contradiction! :D



No it isn't. :D

Anyway, I didn't mean you specifically in regards to the First Amendment stuff. I just wanted to launch a preemptive strike against other people who would undoubtedly pop on here and say, "HEY!! YOU'RE WRONG! I HAVE A FIRST AMDMENTMENT RIGHT TO SAY WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT WHENEVER THE HELL I WANT WHEREEVER THE HELL I WANT!!" Which of course, is complete popycock. (sp?) :)

Anyway, I may not agree with what everyone says here, but as long as we keep things civil and constructive, I say let the ideas flow. BUT, remember, posting is a PRIVILEGE.

Zariyn
05-13-2002, 12:34 AM
Yes, backstab was in patch 1.02. Was it even close to being abused as it is now? Not a chance. Attribute it to a number of things. Flip kick being changed to a double tap makes it harder to execute, increased chance of blocking normal saber attacks, drain/heal being nerfed, and DFA being nerfed all contribute to the proliferation of backsweep/stab now. Players will use whatever tools, cheap as they may be, to win. You know something is being abused when you see people walking around *backwards* just hitting attack trying to get a backsweep. Everyone wants the quick and easy kills, and currently backsweep is the only way to get that, barring some excellent saber targeting. I've pretty much given up playing CTF and FFA because of all the backsweep users. At least with version 1.02, I didn't immediately know what to expect from my next opponent.

Flaming_Saber
05-13-2002, 02:34 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Solo4114


No it isn't. :D

Now I've told you before, I'm not allowed to argue until
you've paid!



Anyway, I didn't mean you specifically in regards to the First Amendment stuff. I just wanted to launch a preemptive strike against other people who would undoubtedly pop on here and say, "HEY!! YOU'RE WRONG! I HAVE A FIRST AMDMENTMENT RIGHT TO SAY WHATEVER THE HELL I WANT WHENEVER THE HELL I WANT WHEREEVER THE HELL I WANT!!" Which of course, is complete popycock. (sp?) :)

Anyway, I may not agree with what everyone says here, but as long as we keep things civil and constructive, I say let the ideas flow. BUT, remember, posting is a PRIVILEGE.

Yea I know it wasn't aimed at me personaly, I just wanted to keep this thread going a bit. Give everyone something to think about other than the dum, dum, dum "PATCH". :D True, about being a priviledge, just like any other organization one joins with rules and regulations.

AV4T4R
05-13-2002, 03:46 PM
I think that in this patch there are too many things that doesnt propely work!

_People didnt like the Smash, an istant unblocking shot able to kill with 1 hit!.. and now we have backstabs and backrolls... able to kill FASTER then smash!

_Blocking enemy shots was a strategy, a skill, u were able to put your lightsaber vs the enemy one to block the shot!, right now ALL shots can be blocked and it's almost impossibile to find a right scheme to plan a form, couse all attack are just randoms, they hit randomly and they do damage randomly!
I tested 2 orizontal red chop, vs a standing target!
FIRST SHOT : 80 damage
SECONDO SHOT : 25 damage
( same conditions in both the shots , why 2 different damages? )
I remember in last patch strategy like " crouching making yellow, then jumping and 2 fast blue... well guys it was REALLY millmetric couse crouching means "attack while avoiding an enemy slash"
Now saber just block everytimes, all common shot can be blocked, so people just play using special deadly move and i noticed that there are times where people is ABLE to block also while making a special move, like the ending part of the SMASH!

_Now it's not clear when u damage someone, in last patch i was able to plan a thing like "red - blue - blue " but now, i see people RUSHING wit 10..11..12 blue shots and HITTING everytime and making..5..10..5..10.. and then the enemy react with 2 shots and kill them making 60 and 60!
And there is not a strategy couse u see both players just rushing each others with blue and yellow stance continuesly hitting or missing!

-----

I think the best balance could be this :

u con block ONLY while NOT attacking
Damage can move inside a range, but not the red stance range...50 - 120!!! damn.
Let's put Blue stance 20- 30 but really fast
Yellow stance 30- 50 but middle speed
red stance 50 - 80 but really slow!

the combo are ok , but let people be Slower while moving back, it's unrealistic to see people running back as fast as i'm running forward!

Decrease the special move damage, i can realise that Smash, ( a move so slow to charge, so visible and predictable ) kill istantanely , but not a backward, it's too fast, let it make 50 of damage, as the blue special moves in last patch

----

REALISTIC COMBACT SERVER OPTION

I also think that a good think for REAL saber duel could be this, allow a server option able to modify the game adding this things!

Saber throw, u want that? ok but if i shot your saber while coming to me you will LOST IT to the ground

Run consume force! Yep i know that "always runner" will hate me for this but, i noticed that while walking the game improve in realism and combact STRATEGY couse u dont have people charging a red stance and then running as Jordan around you.

Run can be a strategy u can use it to make a fast slash , but not THE MOVE, let be differences between "running" and "walking" combact

If u dont like this, well just let RUNNER do a type of moves different from WALKERS, so u can let the duel be more interesting!

Let also the roll consume force in this options!

I mean a STANDING Jedi is a jedi that is not using anything but for a moment try to imagine a warriro runnin and rolling all the time
1) it's impossibile to duel in this conditions
2) for a moment image this game at HIGH LEVEL COMPETITIONS, what will be the fate of strategy? Just doing the BETTER moves in the SMALLER amount of time.

What are the better moves? running running running and hitting with special moves right now!

So If your aim is to create a Jedi race game, ok u won!
If your aim is to create a Jedi sabercombact simulation, well just let the saber combact be as more similiar as i ( and other people ) said!


Thanks raven =)

Raze
05-14-2002, 01:43 PM
Guys, unless you have really really really thought your suggestions over or have played the game for more than 10.000 hours then I suggest you keep your suggestions which would totally change the gameplay for yourself because, um no offense or anything, but you are just a gamer and these guys are professional game designers.. I guess they know their stuff... And I am confident that the next patch will help a lot, so just learn to live with it for the meantime

dol-Egon
05-14-2002, 02:17 PM
I do like the suggestion of eliminating the one-hit kills altogether. There is nothing more annoying than having 100 health and 100 shields and getting backstabbed ONCE and dying.

I'm all for heavy damage on the backstab, however. Let's not totally do away with it.

____


Also, I am learning REAL QUICK that absorb, when used correctly, is pretty much a god-mode now. A light-sider will always beat a dark-sider if they know how to use the new absorb. So much for balance. If it used up more mana, then it wouldn't be so bad. But as it stands, it hardly uses any now.

I do like, however, the invisible absorb ability... that makes for interesting fighting.

Flaming_Saber
05-14-2002, 04:56 PM
Okay, here's some cool stuff. I've been playing around with the command console in MP. If you want to keep the skill level at Jedi master while hosting a game but have no force or only certain force powers try this:

Press shift-~. At the command console type \forcetoggle press the tab key and a list of all the powers will show up for example

0-heal
1-jump
2 speed
..........
15-saber offense
16-saber defense
17-saber throw

\forcetoggle 0 : will turn off heal
\forcetoggle 1 : will turn off jump and so on..........

the game will tell you (forcepower) disabled and all changes will take effect when the level is restarted. As for the jump, if you want to keep the jump abilities active like kick and stuff you need to keep force jump on. But if people are being a bunch of jumping beans here's another neat little trick: At the command console type \g_gravity 3000. You won't be able to jump very high but you will retain kick and other neat tricks you can do with the jump. The game's default gravity is 800 and 3000 may be a bit much so play around with the numbers between 800 and 3000. Remember you can only do this if you are the host of the game.

Oh yeah, to turn these powers back on again just type \forcetoggle (forcepower #) and the game will state (forcepower)
is enabled. These commands affect everyone in the game including host. There are alot more command console items I haven't played around with yet I'm sure this is just the tip of the iceburg.

els.DarkLord
05-14-2002, 09:18 PM
I'd agree with the suggestion not to go on and tell everyone who wants to hear (or even more who does not want to hear), what drastical gameplay changes you would make.

One example would be slowing down the speed one can run balkwards... sure it might be more realistic if this would be slower, BUT: ths would change gameplay COMPLETELY.

So just be careful. Sometimes the things you desire might come true.

The game surely has been improved over 1.02 but still there are things to fix;
-weaken backstabbing
-work over some of the animations so that it would not seem as if you hit your opponent, when you actually didn't
-possibly(!) (if gameplay wise a good idea): weakan saber throw a tad bit.

(surely I forgot something, but it's up to Raven to fix stuff that might need fixing... :/)
I'd suggest fixing those issuse instead of changing everything over completely.

Concerning those small fixes, that i consider necessary I really hope what i read in another thread (NO other patch) isn't true.

Raven has done a GREAT jo so far. if they'd just fix the remaining issues everything would be really fine to me.