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Havoc Stryphe
05-08-2002, 12:21 PM
First of all, let me point out that is neither meant as infalmmatory nor is it meant to incite rioting in the forums. It is merely my observation of the last month and a suggestion to help facilitate a "friendlier" and constructive online community. That being said, I'm now going to piss the majority of you off... ;)

Raven has listened to you for the last month, even though you made it difficult to want to. Complaining malisciously, making deragotory comments and being, in general, very negative. In spite of that fact, Raven corrected most of the issues you voiced and made known. Yes, I am well aware that Force Grip was not an issue voiced here on the boards, but perhaps it was taken issue by the patch developers after the other changes were made. All in all, it was a fast turn-around for a first patch by Raven and very true to what you asked for. Yet you continue to berate and verbally abuse those who, despite your disrespect and extreme attitudes, have been trying to make your gaming experience a better one.

After watching this community for the last month, I have come to a simple yet profound conclusion: The majority of you might as well stop complaining and demanding another patch. Why, you ask? Simple: because it won't make you happy. Here's why: When you first purchased Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast, opened the box, installed it and finally played it, there were initial issues that you felt needed corrected or did not seem the most effecient implementation in the game. This is a normal reaction. It's new and it's different. It's going take some getting used too. But before you gave yourselves time to get used to it, you jumped online and started posting your first impressions. Here let me remind you of some of them:

"This game sucks!"
"Multi-player Sux!"
"Backpedalling sucks!"
"Drain Sucks!"
"Heal Sucks!"
"Heavy Stance Sucks!"
"Single-player Sabers is soooo much better than Multi-player sabers!"

Remember now? So Raven heard your cries and got to work fixing what seemed to be genuine issues. But nobody expected what happened next...

As Raven took the next few weeks to flesh out a patch to cure what ailed their gaming community, the gaming community continued to play their "Sucky" game. Without even knowing it, they slowly adapted to their "Sucky" interfaces, and "Sucky" sabers and even found out how to counter DFA's, Drain Whores and Heal Sluts. They, without knowing it, proved that the game didn't "Suck", it was just different then the games they were playing beforehand. Finally, Raven completes the patch which basically redesigned Mulit-player, I mean let's face it, the aforementioned list pretty much picks at every aspect of the online game!

Now get ready for the Irony, Since many of you had adapted, unknowingly, To the orignal gameplay, when you installed the patch everything was different again, Or to use your terminology: IT SUCKED. Now you've got to change your strategies again, and relearn your killer combos, or better aim your guns etc. All the meanwhile, screaming at Raven to change it again. Ok, here's some more of that irony stuff, Patches don't come out overnight, by the time Raven Fixes everything you're yelling about now and released another patch, you will have adapted to this new gameplay and the new changes will enivitably "Ruin" your game... again.

So here's what it boils down to, take this new gameplay (read: patch) and play it for a while. You'll find that amidst all your complaining and yelling at Raven, that you will adapt and learn the ins-and-the-outs of this new multi-player gameplay. Before long, it will seem fun and you won't know why you were yelling in the first place.

Oh and for those of you who are saddened, disappointed, angered and/or pushed over the legal limit with which we judge legal insanity, over the "weakening" of the guns. I would like you to consider the name of the game of which you are taking issue with. Allow me to furnish you with that, Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast, the game is not entitled "Rebel Soldier: Rebel Outcast" or it is not the upcoming release "Bounty Hunter", It is a game centered around a Jedi, the force, and the Jedi Academy. I'm sorry if you feel that it should be a direct carry over of Quake 3, Half-Life, Counter-Strike etc. But quite frankly, it is not. The game is designed more for intense saber duels and Jedi combat, the guns are to be supplementary and/or to add diversity and to change things up. The guns, however, are not the primary focus of this game. Again, I am sorry, but I can only relate the facts to you.

So in conclusion, This post is meant to help you understand the actual problem with which you as a gaming community are currently struggling with. It's not that Raven purposfully attempted to "ruin" the game, It's not even that Raven didn't do exactly what you asked (actually, quite the opposite!), it's just that you have played the game for 3-5 weeks and have actually learned the game, and the patch is forcing you to re-learn the game. This too will eventually become second nature to you. And I promise you, you will be kicking "newbs" to death again in no time, even if you have to double-tap the jump key. :D

Sincerely,

Havoc Stryphe

D.L.
05-08-2002, 12:33 PM
Damn!!

Fianlly a well thought out post!!!

Congrats mate!!

A lot of people don't actually realise how tough programming is and debugging/editing code is a nightmare!

:thumbsup:

Good work!!

:elephant: :elephant: :elephant: :elephant:

V-tecc
05-08-2002, 12:41 PM
Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe
So in conclusion, This post is meant to help you understand the actual problem with which you as a gaming community are currently struggling with. It's not that Raven purposfully attempted to "ruin" the game, It's not even that Raven didn't do exactly what you asked (actually, quite the opposite!), it's just that you have played the game for 3-5 weeks and have actually learned the game, and the patch is forcing you to re-learn the game. This too will eventually become second nature to you. And I promise you, you will be kicking "newbs" to death again in no time, even if you have to double-tap the jump key. :D

Sincerely,

Havoc Stryphe

Thanks for your assumption, but that isn't the case with me, or many of the experienced players on this forum.

I tested the game, finding it to my liking, I purchased it.
At first i sucked, but I loved the game so I tried more, learning, getting better and better every day.

In the end I got very good. Playing fairly. Getting compliments all the time. People said I fought with honor.

Then the patch came and totally changed the feeling of the game.
I like change, as long as its good. I can adapt.

If I like the game, then I like the challenge that getting good at it brings.

But that wasn't the case, its a different game to me, and I probably wouldn't by it now.

That's why I think many of the gamers on this forum and in JK2 in general feel cheated by this patch.

But I for one have not given up this great game yet.

Don't take this the wrong way... I'm just disagreeing, nothing wrong with that.

V-tecc

Chiori
05-08-2002, 12:44 PM
V-Tecc I don't believe you (not an offense). If the game would have been like it is now from the start you wouldn't know the 'old' game adn you can't tell em you only bought it for MP sabering. So I think that you (like me) would have still bought it and liked it (maybe less than the 'old' version but still).

Chiori

Mr_Sharky
05-08-2002, 12:48 PM
Spot OnŽ

A pleasant reminder that not everybody on these boards are complete <insert insult here>'s (OK there are quite a few nice people here but the vocal minority make them seem less in numbers).

Also the intelligence of these people can be seen by them creating entirely new threads concerning issues dealt with in countless other threads.

Final, again nice post. :)

Havoc Stryphe
05-08-2002, 12:52 PM
Originally posted by Chiori
V-Tecc I don't believe you (not an offense). If the game would have been like it is now from the start you wouldn't know the 'old' game adn you can't tell em you only bought it for MP sabering. So I think that you (like me) would have still bought it and liked it (maybe less than the 'old' version but still).

Chiori

Exactly, you've only help prove my point V-tecc (no Offense ;) ) You learned the game the way it was and got good at it, you learned to like it, now it's changed and it feels worse, but in fact that's change. It's the conditioning of the human mind. It does not respond well with change. Over time the mind learns to optimize itself with it's present configurations, if that configuration changes or any avariable there-in, then the mind must remap itself. There is always resisitance to this change, but in the end, your mind won't know the difference. You will have adapted and be just as "good" as you were. Give it time, and you shall see... :D

Way1ander
05-08-2002, 12:53 PM
I dont give a **** about forcepowers or guns, the only thing i play in multiplayer is duels with no force and saber only. And with the 1.03 patch alot of the fun was taken away from those.. Sure, the DFA move is gone and thats good, but they totally changed the sabermoves and the damage they made. And that was very bad in my opinion.

What was once a thrilling experience in duels has become a boring experience with people sometimes taking up to 10 mediumstance saber hits before they die... Which would make sence if it were woodensabers we were talking about instead of lightsabers..

Desslock
05-08-2002, 12:54 PM
I still want to see some threads where people wanted SP combat in MP... I truly dont remember seeing anyone wanting this, but there was a time I was addicted to JKII :p

First and foremost.. You get used to anything, and sometimes you dont want to change. That is natural. To draw an example from one of the worst crimes against humanity, the Holocaust, many people got used to seeing humans burn, sometimes alive, daily. If you saw that, would you, or COULD you blame the people who saw that everyday for not feeling bad about it? Honestly ask yourself if you saw that sight everyday, would you eventually lose any sentimental feelings that you would have if you first saw those victims? Sure, they felt bad, but not as bad as someone who had not been in Auschwitz for a year or two.

Now.. the DFA complains actually had a legitimate basis. There was actually something wrong with the move outside of the original design parameters (I assume, considering it has changed so much.), but most of the other complaints were just problems with lack of skill, slow connection, etc. People learned to get around it because it, like just about anything, can be avoided with practice. But.. does that make it right to leave in something with a problem? No, it shouldn't remain that way, because it was obviously not what the developers originally wanted.

Backpeddling is something I never really touched on.. but a quick view tells me thats just lack of skill, as I've appearently never had much trouble with it since I never posted a thread or reply on it. Maybe it'd be more realistic, maybe not.. but after that fix that, people will just start strafing out of the way like they do now and then people will complain about that for the same reason.

One thing troubling many of these 'conclusive posts' about the integrity of the gaming community is that they obviously don't realize the people in the community do not have a cohesive mind. Its obvious, because when people were complaining about the DFA, there were others who did not want it changed. The authors of these posts assume that every individual who may think one aspect out of many problematic or discussed aspects is wrong, while not caring, or even liking the other aspects in question.

Then, the author assumes this individual hates every other aspect in question and is called guilty of such a crime, that he should not be called guilty for.

DarkAgent
05-08-2002, 01:00 PM
Well said, Havok!

This new patch truely IS EXACTLY what members of this forum have been asking for. Some people will complain about everything. I love the patch and besides that, it keeps things interesting now that everyone is forced to re-think / re-learn multiplayer moves / strategies.

Good to see a constructive post for a change!

Cheers,

DA ;)

V-tecc
05-08-2002, 01:02 PM
Originally posted by Chiori
V-Tecc I don't believe you (not an offense). If the game would have been like it is now from the start you wouldn't know the 'old' game adn you can't tell em you only bought it for MP sabering. So I think that you (like me) would have still bought it and liked it (maybe less than the 'old' version but still).

Chiori

Again, thank you for assuming that, but..

Since I work in the computer retailing business, I can test a lot of games before I decide to bye them.
So I tested JK2 both in SP and in MP. I Did not find the feeling in SP to my liking but on the other hand I loved it in the MP part of the game. So therefore I bought it.

If I tested the game now I'm pretty sure I wouldn't buy it, and that's something I think I can answer a bit better then you can.

V-tecc

[Dom_Pmd]
05-08-2002, 01:03 PM
DFA is still in MP...


:jango:

Havoc Stryphe
05-08-2002, 01:06 PM
Originally posted by Desslock


One thing troubling many of these 'conclusive posts' about the integrity of the gaming community is that they obviously don't realize the people in the community do not have a cohesive mind. Its obvious, because when people were complaining about the DFA, there were others who did not want it changed. The authors of these posts assume that every individual who may think one aspect out of many problematic or discussed aspects is wrong, while not caring, or even liking the other aspects in question.

Then, the author assumes this individual hates every other aspect in question and is called guilty of such a crime, that he should not be called guilty for.

Okay, if I caught your meaning Desslock, you feel that I have labeled the entire community unable perceive the results I had addressed and in addition, if one person took issue with one of the complaints listed that I am, wrongly, assuming they take issue with all the complaints. Am I right in my asessment?

If so, allow me to clarify. My post was intended as a "catch-all", I am well aware that some people took issue with only 1 or 2 of the complaints and were fine with the others, or even that some had no issues with the original gameplay at all. I was merely addressing the "vocal minority", as someone put it, who are blasting Raven for one thing or another. It was meant to catch all there concerns in a short-as-possible post (Okay, so it's not THAT short ;) ). I never intended to stereotype any legitimate freethinkers and any of you who voiced your opinions in a respectful and/or constructive matter. Again allow me to reiterate, I realize that most of you only took issue with one or two of the aforementioned list of problems the forum was raising, it was merely an attempt to address all issues in a relatively quick and short post. I am sorry and apologize to those I may have offended or hurt in my haste to address my concerns.

Skarfays
05-08-2002, 01:27 PM
I do not like the patch because of the simple fact that it was overdone, like burnt food. Nothing sucked. I loved the game. The only issue I had with it was the hit detection stuff, which was probably just buggy.

Desslock
05-08-2002, 01:32 PM
Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe


Okay, if I caught your meaning Desslock, you feel that I have labeled the entire community unable perceive the results I had addressed and in addition if one person took issue with one of the complaints listed that I am, wrongly, assuming they take issue with all the complaints. Am I right in my asessment?

If so, allow me to clarify. My post was intended as a "catch-all", I am well aware that some people took issue with only 1 or 2 of the complaints and were fine with the others, or even that some had no issues with the original gameplay at all. I was merely addressing the "vocal minority", as someone put it, who are blasting Raven for one thing or another. It was meant to catch all there concerns in a short-as-possible post (Okay, so it's not THAT short ;) ). I never intended to stereotype any legitimate freethinkers and any of you who voiced your opinions in a respectful and/or constructive matter. Again allow me to reiterate, I realize that most of you only took issue with one or two of the aforementioned list of problems the forum was raising, it was merely an attempt to address all issues in a relatively quick and short post. I am sorry and apologize to those I may have offended or hurt in my haste to address my concerns.

Psst.. Im not offended :p

But, someone else may be, and we don't want to intentionally hurt feelings do we?

-------

The vocal minority probably won't listen to reason, much less well constructed reason, such as your post, so its best to just really leave them alone.

I don't feel you have labeled the entire community, I just feel that summarizations on human thoughts and opinions is something that wreaks of controversy, as evident in my post. Its something I try to avoid (example, making a post similar to this one), because people feel violated if I were to put words and opinions on their name. This IS a public forum after all, and it does have its share of wankers and true whiners, but honestly where are they going to inform everyone of their troubles?

If a well respected community member were to come on and put down everyone in the forum because the poster felt that the 'community' were just *******s, you'd feel offended if all you had was good games with this person. Don't lie, you would in real life :p

Havoc Stryphe
05-08-2002, 01:41 PM
Originally posted by Desslock

If a well respected community member were to come on and put down everyone in the forum because the poster felt that the 'community' were just *******s, you'd feel offended if all you had was good games with this person. Don't lie, you would in real life :p

Absolutely! I'd be just as offended in a fabricated life as well! ;)

But seriously, you raise some very good points. Which I agree with entirely. Again, I was addressing those who fell into the parameters with which I used to define them. Those who do not fit within those parameters should disregard my post, and go on with their productive lives. Again, I apologize to those who felt they were being grouped with those they themselves have loathed and argued with.

bellenberger
05-08-2002, 01:44 PM
Thank you Desslock for your insiteful post.

V-tecc
05-08-2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe


Exactly, you've only help prove my point V-tecc (no Offense ;) ) You learned the game the way it was and got good at it, you learned to like it, now it's changed and it feels worse, but in fact that's change. It's the conditioning of the human mind. It does not respond well with change. Over time the mind learns to optimize itself with it's present configurations, if that configuration changes or any avariable there-in, then the mind must remap itself. There is always resisitance to this change, but in the end, your mind won't know the difference. You will have adapted and be just as "good" as you were. Give it time, and you shall see... :D

Ohh, please..

If I should purchase a years supply of chocolate ice cream, I expect to get chocolate every month.
If they change the flavor to strawberry after 1 month, I would feel cheated.
What you are saying is practically that I'm supposed to get use to strawberry.

People have different taste and that's what this is about. This game is a different game now then it was when I bought it.
Stop telling me what I should or should not like.
Why don't you go buy a game you don't like and get use to it.

The game has 2 parts, single player and multi player.
I never liked the single player part of the game and now they have made the multi player part of the game feel more like the single player part.

Anyone with a relatively working brain can understand that i then would think less of the multi player version!

In conclusion: If this was a result of me being use to the changes, why is it that I dont, and in fact never have, liked the single player part of the game?

V-tecc

w1ggl3s
05-08-2002, 01:58 PM
Your base assumption is wrong.

The game out of the package was ausome.

I played 6-8 hours a day on my off days
Struggling to figure out how to play it mp . learning all the little tricks and set ups i could.

Now all that work is for naught.

The invisible absorbers rule again!

I have never even gone close to a msg board since i baught the game cause i was playing it way to much :P


No raven took the opinions of clueless people who didnt take the time to learn how to balance the original game.

A game which i thought was perfect , enjoyable but balanced

Wig

V-tecc
05-08-2002, 02:03 PM
"You learned the game the way it was and got good at it, you learned to like it"

Wrong! I didn't "learn" to like it, I loved it from the start.
It's this version that I can't learn to like because of the games new feeling.

Nill the Mean
05-08-2002, 02:22 PM
As I explained in a few other posts already...

This game would be even cooler if they toned the blocking down a bit in the next patch. Too many sparks for one thing.
With just a little less clashing/blocking it would be more accessible to the people who like original MP and still fun in the SP way too. The game needs to be a bit "easier". After all, the most fun games are the ones with fast, complex action which is easy to execute with a good control system. And I think they made it just a little too complicated now.

And fists damnit! I want fists! Not a stoopid stun baton!

Havoc Stryphe
05-08-2002, 02:24 PM
Originally posted by V-tecc


Ohh, please..

If I should purchase a years supply of chocolate ice cream, I expect to get chocolate every month.
If they change the flavor to strawberry after 1 month, I would feel cheated.
What you are saying is practically that I'm supposed to get use to strawberry.

People have different taste and that's what this is about. This game is a different game now then it was when I bought it.
Stop telling me what I should or should not like.
Why don't you go buy a game you don't like and get use to it.

The game has 2 parts, single player and multi player.
I never liked the single player part of the game and now they have made the multi player part of the game feel more like the single player part.

Anyone with a relatively working brain can understand that i then would think less of the multi player version!

In conclusion: If this was a result of me being use to the changes, why is it that I dont, and in fact never have, liked the single player part of the game?

V-tecc
Whoa, I did mention that there was no offense intended, right? Just checking. As fas as you chocolate/strawberry Ice cream analogy, I'm not going to touch that lest I piss off any Dairy Queen afficienados. Look, I'm simply stating that you can learn to like anything, that's clinically proven. Psychiatrist and psychologist have proven time and time again that the human mind is malleable and trainable. I'm not saying it's exactly what you are looking for, you just don't know it yet. I'm saying you can, if you desire to, learn the new gameplay system and even learn to like it given time and an open mind.

let's be honest, the graphics have not been altered. The skins, models, weapons, music, sounds and maps have remained in the game. The people you play with will still be playing (provided they want to) the controls are changed onliy slightly ( far less than 50% of maps or attacks were actually remapped or reprogrammed) and the damage variables have been tweaked some.

Now you are going to say it's an entirely new game with absolutely no appeal to you anymore. That, my friend, makes little or no sense. It is the sure sign of a narrowmind, or one too set in your ways. Someone rocked the boat and now you want back on dry shore. Maybe you should wait for the boat to flip before you cry for dry land. If you want to quit now, that's fine. But you and I both know, that if you were good before you can become good again using the new gameplay. This game still retains nearly all the exact same details it originally did (That's considering the entire scope of graphics, sound, gameplay, storyline, multi-player etc.) If you liked it before, than there is no reason to Hate it now. Your simply having a hard time dealing with a change to something you have grown accustomed to and/or comfortable with, it's not a fault so much as it's human nature. You can overcome it, just like the prejudice of blacks in america, with time and a little work, but most importantly, you have to want to. Which you have made abundantly clear you have no desire to.

Sorry, you took the gloves off first. I don't want to come of as harsh or demeaning. I apologize if I did.

Essobie
05-08-2002, 02:28 PM
Great post, except for maybe a bit of a misfire in this paragraph:

Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe
Oh and for those of you who are saddened, disappointed, angered and/or pushed over the legal limit with which we judge legal insanity, over the "weakening" of the guns. I would like you to consider the name of the game of which you are taking issue with. Allow me to furnish you with that, Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast, the game is not entitled "Rebel Soldier: Rebel Outcast" or it is not the upcoming release "Bounty Hunter", It is a game centered around a Jedi, the force, and the Jedi Academy. I'm sorry if you feel that it should be a direct carry over of Quake 3, Half-Life, Counter-Strike etc. But quite frankly, it is not. The game is designed more for intense saber duels and Jedi combat, the guns are to be supplementary and/or to add diversity and to change things up. The guns, however, are not the primary focus of this game. Again, I am sorry, but I can only relate the facts to you.

The name of the game does not denote the style of play that is inherant to the multiplayer aspect of the game. It merely illustrates the SINGLE player experience. The first part "Jedi Knight 2" means it is a sequel to a game called "Jedi Knight" which is about a guy who is not a Jedi that turns into a Jedi during the course of the game.

Much like JK1, JK2 does the same thing. You start out a disgruntled former Jedi with no Force Powers and slowly grow back into Jedi Knight status via a boost from a mystical secret valley thingamagig.

The second part is simply talking about Desann (the Outcast).

The multiplayer experience in any game that has strong and seperate single player experience typically has NOTHING to do with the story line of the SP experence. Typically it is just a few non-linear maps with all of the weapons available in the SP game spattered about the place so that you can spawn, pick up some stuff, kill, die, repeat.

The weapons are not "supplementary" or there to "add diversity" to the "intense saber duels". The weapons are there kill people with sabers. The force is there to counteract the weapons' power. The sabers are there to defend against most of the weapons and give players a weapon that cannot be taken away from them in battle.

Granted I don't think the ammo "nerf" of things like the Heavy Repeater Alt-Fire were nearly as bad as everyone thinks they are. I played last night and STILL killed more people with that gun (and others) than I did with any force powers or wildly swinging the saber around.

All the patching in the world is not going to change the mentality of people that insist this game should be all about the Saber when in reality it is definately not (nor was it designed to be, as stated by part of the design team in an interview on jkii.net about a month ago).

I can only assume from your second to last paragraph (that which I quoted above) that you are in this group as well. I think YOU will find once you get used to this patch that weapons are STILL the major point scorers in this game as much as you sound like you wish they were not. I don't think that JK2 should be a direct carry over from Q3A, but outside of the addition of Force Powers and a Melee weapon that can be used as a shield, it IS a direct carry over.

And I think that's just fine. =)

Essobie

Imrtl
05-08-2002, 02:46 PM
Well I do remember alot of posts of people stating they wanted SP saber for MP, I myself wanted MP in SP but whatever.

Personally I still like the game. I have also noticed that the damage of any swing is now based on when you connect with that swing or so it seems. If you connect at the beginning or end of the swing you do less damage, if you connect during the meat of the swing it will do normal damage.

The biggest problem I see with most online games be it a FPS or a MMORPG, is that people that whine the loudest cause changes to occur that alot of the gaming community may or maynot want. Because a developer my lurk in a forum and watch the threads and see wow lots of people complaining about this it must be a problem when in fact those people don't have the ability to adapt and change tactics.

The reality is that reguardless of what changes Raven had or makes in the future you will always have a large number of players that dislike the changes. You can't please everyone and IMO they should not try to.

Personally I would like to see blocking toned down just a bit, it does seem that even during a swing animation your opponent may get a block in, thats just not reasonable to me.

I would also like to see backpeddling slowed down by 25-35%, which is just realistic hell I can't run backwards as fast as I can run forward of course I don't have Jedi reflexes either :(

But if those things don't happen it doesn't mean I'm going to throw a temper tantrum and uninstall the game.

*dons his flameretardent suit*

Havoc Stryphe
05-08-2002, 02:48 PM
Okay, Essobie, perhaps I was a bit hasty in my remarks to those who use guns, which I love to do as well! It's just that I'm not going to call Raven idiots for tweaking them and making them weaker in a game that's about Jedi Knights. If the game were based in the Star Wars galaxy in general and only Jedi's got sabers and you could be a bounty Hunter or a soldier or a mercenary or a medic etc. in addition to being a Jedi, than you would have me dead to rights. But the fact of the matter is, every model comes with a saber and everybody has the force abilities making everybody Jedi meaning the game is focused on Jedi and Jedi combat. But you are right, it doesn't soley rest on that point, that is why the guns are there. It just tends to lean that way. That is all I meant by that. Sorry again (I'm getting good at that! :rolleyes: )

SithMaster2003
05-08-2002, 02:49 PM
I have a request for whoevr runs the Lucasforums site. If you could, would you please create a Flame/Complain board where all the whiners can go and p!$$ and moan about the game/patch/everything else they thing is wrong in life. Then, of course, we would have a new problem, no one qould post on this board.

I heard someone say it before, and I think they were probably right. Only whiners or people who can't play the game (i mean this literally) post on this forum. In other words, people who like the game sit down and play and play and play and never whine a bit. And if they have a complaint, they don't whine their little baby butts off. It seems like whiners are the only people who post on this board, cause that's the only kind of thread you basically see.

Sure, there is the occassional thread about a new saber move or maybe something about a new level or something along those lilnes, but it ends up at the bottom of the list very quickly. Why? Because threads with the title "Patch Sucks" or "This game sucks" quickly fills up the list.

So, I bet you are asking why I am posting? Well, I happen to be one fo those people who can't play the game. I am sutck here at school right now, my computer back at home is screwier than Jar Jar, and I can't get the patch to install because of my screwed up computer.

So, for all of you people out there who don't complain, yet are tired of complainers, get used to it, you don't have a choice.

Have a nice day!

ninelives
05-08-2002, 03:09 PM
before the patch, they complaint about DS is too powerful and it sucks.

after the patch, they complaint DS is not powerful and it sucks.


sigh, Raven got a hard time serving JK2 gamers.


Can we just give them a god damn break???

Kuroshi
05-08-2002, 03:21 PM
The difference is that the "they" you speak of are different groups of people. Those that use the DS, and those that do not.

ninelives
05-08-2002, 03:32 PM
Originally posted by Kuroshi
The difference is that the "they" you speak of are different groups of people. Those that use the DS, and those that do not. so who should Raven listen to? DS user or non-DS user?

PhilCanuck
05-08-2002, 03:35 PM
I liked the game before the patch, and I like it now. Frankly, I think people get too wound up over PC games. However, I have some advice for Raven:

No more gameplay changes. No more tinkering with the balance. Any further patches should only address bugs. Take it from a T2 vet, you'll never satisfy the community by changing the gameplay. You listened to the complaints. DFA? Fixed. Drain whores? Fixed. Heal sluts? Fixed. SP-like lightsaber physics for MP? Fixed. Grip too powerful? Fixed. All of these were complained about in mulitple threads on this forum. Problem is that the majority of players were perfectly happy with MP, too busy happily dueling away online to rebut the complaints posted here.

So now you have a whole new generation of whiners, unhappy with the new balance (or perceived lack thereof). How do you fix it? You don't. Leave things as they are. People will either play the game and enjoy it, or move on to something else. Constantly tinkering with the gameplay, on the other hand, will just upset a new group of players with each patch.

Kuroshi
05-08-2002, 03:38 PM
Trying to find a middle ground is a better route to take. I haven't tried the patch out yet because I'm at my parent's place, but from what I've read (the readme, DS/LS Weapons/Saber players' comments) it seems that they've done a pretty good job.

For the most part DS players will say that they are the best (e.g. have skill) and at the same time say that the LS powers are overpowered. Vise versa for LS. Saber users will always want the saber to be able to beat anything, while weapons users will always want to be able to overcome all force/saber combinations. You just can't listen to one group and hope to find balance, you have to listen to everyone.

Havoc Stryphe
05-08-2002, 03:39 PM
Originally posted by PhilCanuck
I liked the game before the patch, and I like it now. Frankly, I think people get too wound up over PC games. However, I have some advice for Raven:

No more gameplay changes. No more tinkering with the balance. Any further patches should only address bugs. Take it from a T2 vet, you'll never satisfy the community by changing the gameplay. You listened to the complaints. DFA? Fixed. Drain whores? Fixed. Heal sluts? Fixed. SP-like lightsaber physics for MP? Fixed. Grip too powerful? Fixed. All of these were complained about in mulitple threads on this forum. Problem is that the majority of players were perfectly happy with MP, too busy happily dueling away online to rebut the complaints posted here.

So now you have a whole new generation of whiners, unhappy with the new balance (or perceived lack thereof). How do you fix it? You don't. Leave things as they are. People will either play the game and enjoy it, or move on to something else. Constantly tinkering with the gameplay, on the other hand, will just upset a new group of players with each patch.

That's exactly what I was addressing but on the other end: the consumer. Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar. You understand the paradox that is vexing this forum, and are aware that Raven has essentially opened Pandora's box. Let's hope that take your advice, and some people here understand what you just said! :D

V-tecc
05-08-2002, 04:07 PM
Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe

Whoa, I did mention that there was no offense intended, right? Just checking. As fas as you chocolate/strawberry Ice cream analogy, I'm not going to touch that lest I piss off any Dairy Queen afficienados. Look, I'm simply stating that you can learn to like anything, that's clinically proven. Psychiatrist and psychologist have proven time and time again that the human mind is malleable and trainable. I'm not saying it's exactly what you are looking for, you just don't know it yet. I'm saying you can, if you desire to, learn the new gameplay system and even learn to like it given time and an open mind.

let's be honest, the graphics have not been altered. The skins, models, weapons, music, sounds and maps have remained in the game. The people you play with will still be playing (provided they want to) the controls are changed onliy slightly ( far less than 50% of maps or attacks were actually remapped or reprogrammed) and the damage variables have been tweaked some.

Now you are going to say it's an entirely new game with absolutely no appeal to you anymore. That, my friend, makes little or no sense. It is the sure sign of a narrowmind, or one too set in your ways. Someone rocked the boat and now you want back on dry shore. Maybe you should wait for the boat to flip before you cry for dry land. If you want to quit now, that's fine. But you and I both know, that if you were good before you can become good again using the new gameplay. This game still retains nearly all the exact same details it originally did (That's considering the entire scope of graphics, sound, gameplay, storyline, multi-player etc.) If you liked it before, than there is no reason to Hate it now. Your simply having a hard time dealing with a change to something you have grown accustomed to and/or comfortable with, it's not a fault so much as it's human nature. You can overcome it, just like the prejudice of blacks in america, with time and a little work, but most importantly, you have to want to. Which you have made abundantly clear you have no desire to.

Sorry, you took the gloves off first. I don't want to come of as harsh or demeaning. I apologize if I did.

First of, what the hell are you talking about?
You don't even know me, let alone have the right to analyze me.


"Now you are going to say it's an entirely new game with absolutely no appeal to you anymore. That, my friend, makes little or no sense"

Note 1: Thanks for assuming something about me again.
Note 2: "Little or no sense"? - Good, because it was you who said that not I.
Note 3: I'm not your friend.


"If you want to quit now, that's fine. But you and I both know, that if you were good before you can become good again using the new gameplay"


Note 1: If I wanted to quit, I would not be here posting topics and hoping for Raven to take a notice of them. Nor would I be talking to an ignorant like you. (Ignorant because, you assume things about people when you know nothing about them.

Note 2: I have already told you that it's NOT about me having to get good again. That was part of the fun, finding a way to get good, and I would gladly do it again if I could enjoy the game.

Please don't make me repeat that again.

"Look, I'm simply stating that you can learn to like anything, that's clinically proven. Psychiatrist and psychologist have proven time and time again that the human mind is malleable and trainable"

Note 1: Good! Leave it to them to make professional and psychological assumptions about the way people behave. You my "friend" are not in a position to do so. And I "assume" that you haven't got the education to perform these analyzes either.

Note 2: Of course you could probably beat someone with a stick for years until they eventually start liking it, but that's irrelevant here, we are talking about a game.

I have stated my point clearly a couple of times now, and I'll now have to do it again.

I bought the game because I liked it. Then they changed it, and I
don't want to force my self to liking it again.

And If you are that convinced by your theories, why don't you go and do something you hate until you like it?

"Your simply having a hard time dealing with a change to something you have grown accustomed to and/or comfortable with, it's not a fault so much as it's human natur
e. You can overcome it, just like the prejudice of blacks in america, with time and a little work, but most importantly, you have to want to. Which you have made abundantly clear you have no desire to."

That is the last time I wan't you to presume anything about me again, understood?
And the fact that you compare prejudice against blacks with me and others disliking of certain modifications done to a game is totally beyond my comprehension.

"Sorry, you took the gloves off first. I don't want to come of as harsh or demeaning. I apologize if I did."

No I did not, in fact I haven't taken my gloves off at all. Don't make me
If you can't handle criticism, then don't come here and start agitating people by analyzing them and stereotyping them.

I never intended to be aggressive, but as I see it, it's you who started it, in your very first post. I just hope we can end this now.

V-tecc

Cerebral
05-08-2002, 05:12 PM
Originally posted by V-tecc


First of, what the hell are you talking about?
You don't even know me, let alone have the right to analyze me.


"Now you are going to say it's an entirely new game with absolutely no appeal to you anymore. That, my friend, makes little or no sense"

Note 1: Thanks for assuming something about me again.
Note 2: "Little or no sense"? - Good, because it was you who said that not I.
Note 3: I'm not your friend.


"If you want to quit now, that's fine. But you and I both know, that if you were good before you can become good again using the new gameplay"


Note 1: If I wanted to quit, I would not be here posting topics and hoping for Raven to take a notice of them. Nor would I be talking to an ignorant like you. (Ignorant because, you assume things about people when you know nothing about them.

Note 2: I have already told you that it's NOT about me having to get good again. That was part of the fun, finding a way to get good, and I would gladly do it again if I could enjoy the game.

Please don't make me repeat that again.

"Look, I'm simply stating that you can learn to like anything, that's clinically proven. Psychiatrist and psychologist have proven time and time again that the human mind is malleable and trainable"

Note 1: Good! Leave it to them to make professional and psychological assumptions about the way people behave. You my "friend" are not in a position to do so. And I "assume" that you haven't got the education to perform these analyzes either.

Note 2: Of course you could probably beat someone with a stick for years until they eventually start liking it, but that's irrelevant here, we are talking about a game.

I have stated my point clearly a couple of times now, and I'll now have to do it again.

I bought the game because I liked it. Then they changed it, and I
don't want to force my self to liking it again.

And If you are that convinced by your theories, why don't you go and do something you hate until you like it?

"Your simply having a hard time dealing with a change to something you have grown accustomed to and/or comfortable with, it's not a fault so much as it's human natur
e. You can overcome it, just like the prejudice of blacks in america, with time and a little work, but most importantly, you have to want to. Which you have made abundantly clear you have no desire to."

That is the last time I wan't you to presume anything about me again, understood?
And the fact that you compare prejudice against blacks with me and others disliking of certain modifications done to a game is totally beyond my comprehension.

"Sorry, you took the gloves off first. I don't want to come of as harsh or demeaning. I apologize if I did."

No I did not, in fact I haven't taken my gloves off at all. Don't make me
If you can't handle criticism, then don't come here and start agitating people by analyzing them and stereotyping them.

I never intended to be aggressive, but as I see it, it's you who started it, in your very first post. I just hope we can end this now.

V-tecc

Take a nice cold one and just relax dudes,, alls well that ends well. And speaking of ends,, i found some info on the "Oh Mighty pussy" Dvlos,, he he,, getting closer. Got a great trace on an message he sent via ICQ.. Now I just hope he can stand up 4 his ego and atleast not piss him self when i get my hands on him :D HA HA

Well well,, the patch lovers seem to be getting less and less here,, maby thay played the game with the new patch and understood what a mess of the game its made..

V-tecc,, ceep up the good work dude =)

Havoc Stryphe
05-08-2002, 05:22 PM
Originally posted by V-tecc


First of, what the hell are you talking about?
You don't even know me, let alone have the right to analyze me.


"Now you are going to say it's an entirely new game with absolutely no appeal to you anymore. That, my friend, makes little or no sense"

Note 1: Thanks for assuming something about me again.
Note 2: "Little or no sense"? - Good, because it was you who said that not I.
Note 3: I'm not your friend.


"If you want to quit now, that's fine. But you and I both know, that if you were good before you can become good again using the new gameplay"


Note 1: If I wanted to quit, I would not be here posting topics and hoping for Raven to take a notice of them. Nor would I be talking to an ignorant like you. (Ignorant because, you assume things about people when you know nothing about them.

Note 2: I have already told you that it's NOT about me having to get good again. That was part of the fun, finding a way to get good, and I would gladly do it again if I could enjoy the game.

Please don't make me repeat that again.

"Look, I'm simply stating that you can learn to like anything, that's clinically proven. Psychiatrist and psychologist have proven time and time again that the human mind is malleable and trainable"

Note 1: Good! Leave it to them to make professional and psychological assumptions about the way people behave. You my "friend" are not in a position to do so. And I "assume" that you haven't got the education to perform these analyzes either.

Note 2: Of course you could probably beat someone with a stick for years until they eventually start liking it, but that's irrelevant here, we are talking about a game.

I have stated my point clearly a couple of times now, and I'll now have to do it again.

I bought the game because I liked it. Then they changed it, and I
don't want to force my self to liking it again.

And If you are that convinced by your theories, why don't you go and do something you hate until you like it?

"Your simply having a hard time dealing with a change to something you have grown accustomed to and/or comfortable with, it's not a fault so much as it's human natur
e. You can overcome it, just like the prejudice of blacks in america, with time and a little work, but most importantly, you have to want to. Which you have made abundantly clear you have no desire to."

That is the last time I wan't you to presume anything about me again, understood?
And the fact that you compare prejudice against blacks with me and others disliking of certain modifications done to a game is totally beyond my comprehension.

"Sorry, you took the gloves off first. I don't want to come of as harsh or demeaning. I apologize if I did."

No I did not, in fact I haven't taken my gloves off at all. Don't make me
If you can't handle criticism, then don't come here and start agitating people by analyzing them and stereotyping them.

I never intended to be aggressive, but as I see it, it's you who started it, in your very first post. I just hope we can end this now.

V-tecc

I'm glad you got that off your chest, no sense carrying around all that pent-up angst. I guess than I'll leave you with this thought, I'm sorry. Sorry You can't communicate in a non-aggresive manner, at least with me (Gotta add that, lest I'm accused of presuming something else about you). I wish all the luck in your quest to make a software company bend to your will, or find solace in the game you once loved.

By the way, the phrase "My friend" was simply a figure of speech used to keep things in a much more civilized and "friendly" manner of debate, sorry it set you off, there's more of that irony stuff. Perhaps you should take things less personally, it will help lengthen your life-span.

I'm sorry the game no-longer appeals to you, I know JO brings alot of people great joy and fun, it's a shame you'll miss out on that. It would seem you could use a little more fun in your life, or maybe more fiber, it's hard to tell.

I hope in the event that Raven does not fix what you feel is now ruined, that you do find a game that meets and even exceeds your expectations. You are truly deserving of having a great gaming experience. After all, your people skills and the atmosphere you create here on these boards is certainly pleasant and personable. ;)

SithMaster2003
05-08-2002, 06:04 PM
Flame Wars!!!!!! Aren't they great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:D :D :D

bellenberger
05-08-2002, 06:07 PM
<quote>
The multiplayer experience in any game that has strong and seperate single player experience typically has NOTHING to do with the story line of the SP experence. Typically it is just a few non-linear maps with all of the weapons available in the SP game spattered about the place so that you can spawn, pick up some stuff, kill, die, repeat.
</quote>

SP and MP have nothing to do with each other?? Oh, so it would be perfectly logical in RTCW for them to add electro-ray weapons and rail guns? Or maybe since you like guns so much just take all the SP weapons away in MP and replace them with MP5s and AK47's?

The game is Jedi Knight. That means the SP and MP should be Jedi Knight. That means that both SP and MP should be like being a Jedi Knight from the Star Wars movies.

There are plenty of games (UT, Quake) that have guns and do guns better than JKII does them. Sure there are no force powers, but:
a) you can write a mod and add them
b) Most if not all the powers mainly complement saber fighting.

And the complaints about guns are that they are unbalanced, not that guns should not be there. Spamming with the secondary repeater fire sucks even if it was Quake. You can't honestly tell me that repeater secondary fire vs. saber was a fair match up. So they balanced it by making it take a comparable amount of ammo.

I think you (and all the other Quake players) are mad because you can't kill 50 people with a cheap, unbalanced weapon anymore.

Brian Ellenberger

Essobie
05-09-2002, 12:52 AM
Originally posted by bellenberger

SP and MP have nothing to do with each other?? Oh, so it would be perfectly logical in RTCW for them to add electro-ray weapons and rail guns? Or maybe since you like guns so much just take all the SP weapons away in MP and replace them with MP5s and AK47's?

Yeah, I would think that if I was stupid, I suppose. Luckily what I said was that the title of the game was not chosen to illustrate what lay in the multiplayer gameplay. It only illustrates what is in the single player. Which it does. No really... go play the single player. The title totally fits. It's CRAZY how well it describes it.

I also said that ALL OTHER GAMES that have both multiplayer and single player always have drastically different types of game play simply because of resource increases during the course of the single player game. Let me clarify that...

In single player you start off with a really wussie weapon (Doom; the pistol; Q1, the axe and the shotgun; Q2, the blaster; JK1 and 2, the Blaster Pistol; the list WILL go on and on). As you play through each level, you find bigger and better weapons. This is so that you can more easily fight your way past stronger and stronger foes (or more and more foes, of course). A lot of the times you won't get the most powerful weapon until very late in the game. This is the resource increase I'm talking about.

Multiplayer, on the other hand, typically (if not always) gives you ACCESS to ALL of those resources throughout the course of the game at the very beginning (i.e. all of the weapons in the single player game are present in one map that you can run over and pick up at the start of the game).

When looking at what "multiplayer" is for JK2, I look at the most rudementary gametype which most FPS's start with before they move on to the more complex gametypes. That rudementary gametype being Free For All.

The majority of the game balance that I've witnessed in the design of JK2 MP comes from balancing FFA... not 1 on 1, not CTF or CTY... Free For All.

They took all the elements of the single player experience (the guns from the entire span of the game, all of the force powers, and the light saber) and stuck them all in one place for you to duke it out with other people. That's it.

The multiplayer is not about looking or acting like the movies, as much as the guys at Penny-Arcade would like it to be. It is about joining a server with a decent ping, finding the most effiencent killing device available to you, and offing as many other players as you can before the timelimit or fraglimit hits.

THAT IS ALL. There is no other goal present in the gameplay of this gametype. The game was balanced for this purpose, and still is... with or without added ammo depletion in certain weapons.

Some other comments (I hate breaking other people's posts... but it wouldn't make sense otherwise...)


And the complaints about guns are that they are unbalanced, not that guns should not be there. Spamming with the secondary repeater fire sucks even if it was Quake. You can't honestly tell me that repeater secondary fire vs. saber was a fair match up. So they balanced it by making it take a comparable amount of ammo.


Good God, no I couldn't tell you that they were a fair match up! Know why? Because a saber user up against someone with a Heavy Repeater should be RUNNING AWAY. It isn't SUPPOSED to be a fair match up. Ever play Rock, Paper, Scissors? It's a common theme amongst game designers because it works. Heavy Repeater Alt Fire kills Saber. Saber kills Blaster and Blaster Rifle. Force Pull and Force Run "kills" Heavy Repeater.


I think you (and all the other Quake players) are mad because you can't kill 50 people with a cheap, unbalanced weapon anymore.


As I said before... I'm not mad. Why? Because I STILL CAN and DO kill people with that "cheap, unbalanced weapon" as you call it. All over the place. With just the same tactics as before.

Granted I can't kill as many now without going in search of more ammo... but that isn't stopping me from hitting the fraglimit when everyone else has to do the same thing. No one is going to get more kills by using only the Saber than I will using everything at my disposal (even the Saber when nothing else is available).

Yeah... I'm a "Quake player"... at least originally. But I've played everything else as well. JK2, while different from other games such as Quake, still can be tackled with the same mindset of "kill effieciently or lose" that works in Quake... and every other multiplayer action game. Arcade fighters, real-time strategy, hell even some of the MMORPGs. Doesn't anyone else get this?

I think it is the "honorable" Star Wars fans such as yourself that were mad before the patch because of the weapons and will continue to be mad DURING the patch when you find that they havn't quite nerfed these weapons as much as would be required to make the Saber reign supreme.

It all comes back to people fighting in tight circles of saber waving that make the guns work so well. The only way the Saber is going to top everything else is if the everything else really IS removed. Why do you think there's an option for Sabers Only?

Essobie

NewBJedi
05-09-2002, 01:24 AM
Originally posted by Havoc Stryphe
First of all, let me point out that is neither meant as infalmmatory nor is it meant to incite rioting in the forums. It is merely my observation of the last month and a suggestion to help facilitate a "friendlier" and constructive online community. That being said, I'm now going to piss the majority of you off... ;)

Raven has listened to you for the last month, even though you made it difficult to want to. Complaining malisciously, making deragotory comments and being, in general, very negative. In spite of that fact, Raven corrected most of the issues you voiced and made known. Yes, I am well aware that Force Grip was not an issue voiced here on the boards, but perhaps it was taken issue by the patch developers after the other changes were made. All in all, it was a fast turn-around for a first patch by Raven and very true to what you asked for. Yet you continue to berate and verbally abuse those who, despite your disrespect and extreme attitudes, have been trying to make your gaming experience a better one.

After watching this community for the last month, I have come to a simple yet profound conclusion: The majority of you might as well stop complaining and demanding another patch. Why, you ask? Simple: because it won't make you happy. Here's why: When you first purchased Jedi Knight 2: Jedi Outcast, opened the box, installed it and finally played it, there were initial issues that you felt needed corrected or did not seem the most effecient implementation in the game. This is a normal reaction. It's new and it's different. It's going take some getting used too. But before you gave yourselves time to get used to it, you jumped online and started posting your first impressions. Here let me remind you of some of them:

"This game sucks!"
"Multi-player Sux!"
"Backpedalling sucks!"
"Drain Sucks!"
"Heal Sucks!"
"Heavy Stance Sucks!"
"Single-player Sabers is soooo much better than Multi-player sabers!"

Remember now? So Raven heard your cries and got to work fixing what seemed to be genuine issues. But nobody expected what happened next...

As Raven took the next few weeks to flesh out a patch to cure what ailed their gaming community, the gaming community continued to play their "Sucky" game. Without even knowing it, they slowly adapted to their "Sucky" interfaces, and "Sucky" sabers and even found out how to counter DFA's, Drain Whores and Heal Sluts. They, without knowing it, proved that the game didn't "Suck", it was just different then the games they were playing beforehand. Finally, Raven completes the patch which basically redesigned Mulit-player, I mean let's face it, the aforementioned list pretty much picks at every aspect of the online game!

Now get ready for the Irony, Since many of you had adapted, unknowingly, To the orignal gameplay, when you installed the patch everything was different again, Or to use your terminology: IT SUCKED. Now you've got to change your strategies again, and relearn your killer combos, or better aim your guns etc. All the meanwhile, screaming at Raven to change it again. Ok, here's some more of that irony stuff, Patches don't come out overnight, by the time Raven Fixes everything you're yelling about now and released another patch, you will have adapted to this new gameplay and the new changes will enivitably "Ruin" your game... again.

So here's what it boils down to, take this new gameplay (read: patch) and play it for a while. You'll find that amidst all your complaining and yelling at Raven, that you will adapt and learn the ins-and-the-outs of this new multi-player gameplay. Before long, it will seem fun and you won't know why you were yelling in the first place.

Oh and for those of you who are saddened, disappointed, angered and/or pushed over the legal limit with which we judge legal insanity, over the "weakening" of the guns. I would like you to consider the name of the game of which you are taking issue with. Allow me to furnish you with that, Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast, the game is not entitled "Rebel Soldier: Rebel Outcast" or it is not the upcoming release "Bounty Hunter", It is a game centered around a Jedi, the force, and the Jedi Academy. I'm sorry if you feel that it should be a direct carry over of Quake 3, Half-Life, Counter-Strike etc. But quite frankly, it is not. The game is designed more for intense saber duels and Jedi combat, the guns are to be supplementary and/or to add diversity and to change things up. The guns, however, are not the primary focus of this game. Again, I am sorry, but I can only relate the facts to you.

So in conclusion, This post is meant to help you understand the actual problem with which you as a gaming community are currently struggling with. It's not that Raven purposfully attempted to "ruin" the game, It's not even that Raven didn't do exactly what you asked (actually, quite the opposite!), it's just that you have played the game for 3-5 weeks and have actually learned the game, and the patch is forcing you to re-learn the game. This too will eventually become second nature to you. And I promise you, you will be kicking "newbs" to death again in no time, even if you have to double-tap the jump key. :D

Sincerely,

Havoc Stryphe

Umm.. I just uninstalled 1.03 and installed 1.02 (straight off the cd).

Fixed my problem.

Borf
05-09-2002, 01:36 AM
vtec, stop being such a dick

havoc's polite enough, you aren't

ninelives
05-09-2002, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by NewBJedi


Umm.. I just uninstalled 1.03 and installed 1.02 (straight off the cd).

Fixed my problem.

hey newbie, you don't have to quote.

Borf
05-09-2002, 01:43 AM
it's just a game, most people wanted a change and they got that

i myself am very fond of the old style multiplayer, but i guess we'll all grow accustomed to the sp style multi soon enough

get used to it.

and stfu :monkey4:

Aoshi
05-09-2002, 03:05 AM
lolz i agree that once you get what you want your opinions always change. just a part of human nature. when you first meet something you want to change it but as you grow accustomed to it you want it to stay. if people listen to what you first said and change it how you wanted it (thinking to do you a favor) you just criticize them and say that everything was fine in the beginning. true irony but hey that's life just read a history book and you see people get what they want then abuse it and want a change right back to the original... people are such hypocrits

Vestril
05-09-2002, 03:16 AM
Umm.. I just uninstalled 1.03 and installed 1.02 (straight off the cd).

Fixed my problem.

As did I, I take issue with only a few things in the new release, but frankly they are enough that I have a hard time enjoying the new version of the game.

I was primarily a NF Dueler and frankly found the addition of Saber Throw to NF servers to be rather pointless and annoying. I like the new Saber interactions but they wreck ping, which is (I assume) why Saber combat was as it was in the first place. I love Raven and enjoyed the product they released but I think they rushed to patch the game because of the very vocal community and we're seeing the results now.

I have little doubt that any changes made will be well balanced and frankly I thought they did a good job of addressing some of the balance issues with the patch--there just seem to be a large number of bugs and mistakes with the patch that need to be addressed. I think that I will hold off on my new version MP playing until I get the impression that it is a little less buggy.