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View Full Version : For the last time, Heal and Drain are NOT useless!


Zek
05-08-2002, 11:25 PM
Sure, heal and drain as they are now would be not very useful if they were put in 1.02 like that. But this is 1.03, and as I'm sure you all are aware, duels last much longer now with the new saber system. You DON'T NEED to heal 50 health every 10 seconds anymore!

Drain obviously depends heavily on the opponent's force and if they have Absorb(Drain still heals you a lot under the right circumstances, way more than Heal), so I'll talk about Heal. If you don't go all-out and get either yourself or the opponent killed in the first 30 seconds, you most likely won't take so much damage so fast that you'll need to heal at the rate you could in 1.02. In the FF Duel games I've played, I've often been able to give myself 100+ extra health over the duration of the fight, using Heal(and not running away half the time either). If you don't constantly blow your power and keep yourself at an empty bar, you should be able to keep yourself alive significantly longer in a fight; even a 50 heal with the current force cost would cause duels to go on FOREVER. Drain is pretty much the same; much harder to give yourself such a major heal, but it'll sustain you much longer than without it.

I'm pretty sure that, although they didn't mention it, Raven made the changes to the heal powers to make them more of a supplement rather than the only thing keeping you alive for more than 20 seconds. Unlike 1.02, you aren't totally screwed if you don't have level 3 in them and your opponent does; they're just something extra that can and often will turn the tide in a fight. Saying they're useless now is a blatant exaggeration: it may seem that way looking at the facts, but it sure doesn't play out that way.

jarek
05-08-2002, 11:44 PM
25 life for half your force. its useless. and in most cases, it no longer turns the tide of the fight, it just delays your death.

Zek
05-08-2002, 11:59 PM
Did you read any of the first post? Many times I've been in duels and sustained noticably more than 100 damage, but been above 50 or so throughout because of heal and won. The idea is that it doesn't take you out of a nosedive anymore like it did in 1.02: it's not meant for that. It keeps you at a reasonable level of health where otherwise you might be dead already.

NewBJedi
05-09-2002, 12:02 AM
Drain was a great equalizer to all the spamming of lightening and other forces powers in an area.

The saber offense control is better .. but the added defense negates it completely.

More skills does not = more swings.

And that's what the uber saber defense does.

It just requires you to swing a lot more.

Skill has NOTHING to do with it.

Zek
05-09-2002, 12:58 AM
You're wrong. Saber combat works much differently now than it did before; you can't use the same hit-and-run tactics. There is more skill than ever before in hitting someone, because you have to penetrate their defense(it's not random in the slightest, you just have to get used to it) first. Yes, you can do this by swinging wildly, but it certainly isn't the best way, and you'll lose pretty fast to someone who knows how to play 1.03 properly.

Hemi-Cuda
05-09-2002, 02:18 AM
drain used to be good for exactly what its called, draining people of their force so you dont get lightning/gripped/thrown/etc to death. but now even if you have a full force bar, you cant drain theirs completly, least not that i've witnessed

now even when i do use drain, i still get force pulled then saber swept. this is why i've gone over to only NF servers

Silent Victor
05-09-2002, 02:28 AM
As it was, drain could dry up an opponent's entire force pool using half of the attacker's. Granted, a clever light jedi would likely get absorb off before more than half of his pool was gone. However, dark jedi fights were just a matter of who decided to drain first. Jedi fight with light sabers. That's the whole idea. Never once in a star wars film did you see darth vader running around like a faerie using force drain on luke so he could toss him off a ledge with impunity. That, mostly, is because Darth Vader is a bad-ass son of a bitch. Also, it's because that tactic just wouldn't work.

Now, I had no problem with drain in 1.02, because I'm a light jedi, and it was kind of funny. At this point, however, if Drain worked like it did in 1.02, it would be ridiculously unbalancing. There would simply be no use for the saber when fighting another dark jedi. At this point, the saber just doesn't do enough damage reliably to ever compete with the v1.02 drain/grip combo. Most dark jedi would never take out their sabers, unless they weren't going for points. Personally, I am much more comfortable with the drain/heal powers being slightly (yes, i said slightly) nerfed than with watching two jerkie stumps run around in little circles trying to drain the other guy so they can strangle him with complete impunity.

Tummy
05-09-2002, 02:57 AM
Drain was ALWAYS intended not to keep the other player out of force, but rather keeping you in health. If you look at it that way it was by no mean nerfed.

NewBJedi
05-09-2002, 02:59 AM
Uh, why do you think they call it 'drain'?

Pvt_Dancer
05-09-2002, 03:05 AM
I agree with you Zek. Saber combat has become something that allows skill to have a better impact on the eventual winner. I think the stances are more useful overall... I switch through them during duels depending on when the tactics of a certain stance will work best for me. Playing "Ladder" will help you get ready for the new Multiplay.

25 life for half your force. its useless. and in most cases, it no longer turns the tide of the fight, it just delays your death.

As far as drain and heal go, I have TOTALLY turned the tide with drain. Just using drain doesn't turn the tide... you have to back up your slightly prolonged life with some decent swordplay. I had lots of guys heal or drain during a duel that I was winning and then they were able to come back and put an end to me. I think they work just fine.

Tummy
05-09-2002, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by NewBJedi
Uh, why do you think they call it 'drain'?

Yeah like DRAIN LIFE

Vanor
05-09-2002, 03:19 AM
Originally posted by Hemi-Cuda
drain used to be good for exactly what its called, draining people of their force so you dont get lightning/gripped/thrown/etc to death. but now even if you have a full force bar, you cant drain theirs completly, least not that i've witnessed

So your problem is that you can't use drain to tottaly drain someone else of all their force power, but still have enough left to use grip/light.

Oh yes, I can see why this patch is so horable... Drain is tottaly useless now, because you can't spam it at will anymore.

I'll agree that Raven might of went a bit too far in their change to drain, but far to many people seem to scream that drain/heal is usless now, because it's not as powerfull as it was. But far more people screamed that they were too powerfull before.

Rocketman
05-09-2002, 03:35 AM
i feel half/half about it. i like the new saber defense and lowered drain. but they may have gone just a tad to far with it and heal. heal is almost useless.

also i kinda like the improved saber defense, but they made the hits that actually connect soooo damn weak that it's like playing sword fight with a giftwrapping tube.

now instead of the overhand strike as the whore move of choice, its now the back stab, which is very hard to block if you've just been force pulled on your ass.

but i do like it that you can't turn with the forward lunge, makes it riskier but at the same time you pull out of it faster.

oh and lightning is way too effective now that heal is so weakened.

BG clan
05-09-2002, 03:35 AM
You always talk about keeping your force above half as a lightside jedi...i wonder how you manage to do this. The lightside powers do not allow you to recharge force when they are being used. So are you saying Zek that you never use anything other than absorb? No throw? Because this the only way you could keep your force above half. When a lightside jedi's force is low, and they need to heal they better hope that they do not get drained. Otherwise they are SCREWED. It takes far less force to drain than it does to heal, and drain can be spammed indefinitely, keeping the lightside jedi on no force. This also heals the dark jedi, over time, to full. I have tested this. In a duel match, a dark jedi can drain you indefinitely, gaining 4 health each hit, while you have no force. It also takes up relatively no force to drain. They can do this while back pedalling, rolling, while you can do NOTHING. This is especially bad when there is a time limit, as they can easily wait you out. I am still curious as to how you manage to stay over half force. Perhaps I will play you sometime. I am only lightside btw; no idea why you thought i was darkside.