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View Full Version : If you think 1.03's saber combat is random, read here


Zek
05-09-2002, 02:28 PM
The favorite argument of most 1.02 supporters seems to be that 1.03's new combat is totally random and doesn't require any skill. That the blocking makes it impossible to intentionally hit anyone; it's all luck. Nothing could be further from the truth.

The fact is, the increased chance of blocking and reworked stances totally changes how the saber system works. You can't play it the same as 1.02; take a day or two to relearn the basics and you'll find 1.03 is much more refined and skilled than 1.02 ever was. The reason people think it's random is because they play it as if it's random; they run straight at them and hold down the swing button, hoping that one of their swings isn't blocked. When most of their random swings are blocked, they conclude that the defense is almost impossible to penetrate and that saber combat is just a roll of the dice. If your saber fights are all just random swinging, you're doing it wrong; it's the same as holding down the swing button constantly in 1.02. If you play that way, saber combat is going to seem very two dimensional, when in fact it's anything but. 1.03 adds defense as a whole new factor into saber fights, and if you don't take it into account, you're going to lose. Repeatedly. It is possible to master, however, and when you do you'll realize how involved it really is. If it's random, why do you think there are still people in 1.03 who dominate saber games without having to use cheap tactics like the backslash?

I'm not going to go over all the different tactics you can use to get past the defense; the only way to really learn it is practice. Just be open minded and forget all the tactics you learned in 1.02, because it's a new game now. You're so used to knowing all the tricks of 1.02 that you don't want to waste your time learning the vastly different tricks of 1.03, but if you take the time, it's worth it.

In 1.02, saber combat was turning into a jousting competition similar to JK1, just with more different swings. People just ran around eachother, trying to get close enough to get a swing in without getting hit themselves. Everyone was so afraid of meeting an enemy head on(since blocking rarely happened without serious effort) that the majority of saber fights consisted of fighting for position. In 1.03, you can block frontal attacks with ease, so running circles around eachother is no longer necessary. This doesn't mean your frontal defense can't be penetrated; it can, if you know what you're doing, but no longer is your #1 priority not to let them get close to you for long. Saber battles are just so much more interesting in 1.03, and fights are much more varied, as opposed to the same old dodging and swinging every time.

Anyway, I'm ranting now, so I'll stop. The point is, give 1.03 more of a chance before you condemn it; learn it from the ground up instead of burdening yourself with old and ineffective strategies. If you just spend a little time adjusting to it, you'll discover how much it really adds to saber duels.

NewBJedi
05-09-2002, 02:37 PM
Uh, a person can stand still and block attacks from behind . . .

The attack system is better, granted.

But the blocking system is zero skill and it takes forever to fight a duel.

The movies they intentionally hit each other's saber for the dramatic effect.

This isn't a movie, it's a game with interaction.

They need to tone down the blocking - otherwise, it's all automatic and basically random in function.

1.02 - not so controlled attacking, manual blocking.

1.03 - much more controlled attacking, uber automatic blocking.

They need to mix the two if they want both people to be happy - or make a way for the server admin to tone down the blocks.

Or they need to make it so you have to manually block, nothing automatic - that would be more realistic - a simple key bind would do.

Again, make that server side - manual vs. automatic blocking.

Nill the Mean
05-09-2002, 02:43 PM
Hey, that is also what I have been saying all along!

TheDarkSide
05-09-2002, 02:43 PM
Well put, Zek.

Somehow the myth of the "unpenetrable" saber defense has been rampant on these boards. Yes, there is more blocking, and .....if you unlearn your old tactics and actually try some new ones.....you will find that it is in fact able to be penetrated with the new control you have over your saber offensively. The big difference between v1.02 is that you have to think and actually OUT DUEL your opponent, instead of out button mash him.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about.

In v1.02, any time you swung or basically did ANY animation you were vulnerable. What battles consisted of was waiting for your opponent to move, use a force, do ANYTHING, and then time your swing from that.

The difference in v1.03 as far as I can tell is that now when doing a certain attack, say swinging to the left, you are now NOT completely vulnerable to anything that comes your way in the form of a counterattack. If your opponent swings left, and you swing right to counter attack while he's swinging, you're most likely going to see a parry and probably a saber lock if u time it right. However, if instead you do an overhead chop or blue crouch lunge, you will be able to get in a hit (if performed at the right time).

Basically, v1.02 was about two people attacking each other, v1.03 is about attacking and defending. You have to counter-attack in a way that the attacker is vulnerable to, not with just any old attack....

TDS

LooNBB
05-09-2002, 02:44 PM
They need a Block Button and a Parry button.

TheDarkSide
05-09-2002, 02:52 PM
Your parries are all manual in this version. Blocks are automated.
If an opponent swings at you, if you swing from the opposite direction, you will parry or saber lock.

And NewB, I don't know what kind of illegal controlled substance you are smoking, but the "uber-blocking" as you call it does not block attacks from behind. The blocking as far as I can tell only works at attacks from your 10 o clock to 2 o clock quadrant.

TDS

Nill the Mean
05-09-2002, 02:53 PM
God I hope they don't add manual blocking.
I can tell you now that you would end up dying A LOT.
Automatic blocking with say, a 30 degree radius in front of you would work much better.
The saber clashing is cool and everything but it happens far too much. You should be open for counterattack if you miss your swing. Makes sense to me.
They should also up the damage on all the attacks apart from backstab, which needs a nerf.

Dvlos
05-09-2002, 02:57 PM
Uh, I have never blocked anything from behind. Light stance has the widest arc of defense.

And parries are manual, the only thing auto is blocking.

Which works good standing still, works a little worse walking, less efficient, running, even less jumping, and non-existent while using a force or slashing.

Zek
05-09-2002, 02:58 PM
Originally posted by NewBJedi
Uh, a person can stand still and block attacks from behind . . .

Sometimes, but not usually. Pretty much a non-issue except against AFKers.

Originally posted by NewBJedi
The attack system is better, granted.

But the blocking system is zero skill and it takes forever to fight a duel.

Did you read what I just said? There is a LOT of skill to blocks. As was said earlier, hitting them is no longer a matter of using a move that causes your saber to go that far; you have to get past their defense. Even if they aren't swinging, you can break through it, but if they are swinging it's not hard at all. It's not impenetrable, you just have to know when and where to strike. More precise aim pays off, unlike in 1.02 where all you have to do is make your saber touch their model and you hit. It may be hard to see in the heat of battle, but there is a system for when they block and when they don't block; the key is to learn it and use it, which you haven't bothered to try.

Originally posted by NewBJedi
The movies they intentionally hit each other's saber for the dramatic effect.

No, in the movies they swing at eachother but put their sabers in the way of the other's to do something called a "block". This is especially well choreographed in Episode 1. A Jedi uses the Force to predict the attacks of their opponent, and that's how they can block an attack with such ease.

Originally posted by NewBJedi
This isn't a movie, it's a game with interaction.

Which is why it's so much easier to get past their defense now than it is in the movie, and why you don't kill them in one swing.

Originally posted by NewBJedi
They need to tone down the blocking - otherwise, it's all automatic and basically random in function.

Nope, wrong. It's not all automatic, and it isn't random in the slightest ONCE YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'RE DOING. It's obvious to me reading your many, many complaining posts that you spent so little time actually trying to adjust to 1.03's gameplay that you never figured out how it works.

Originally posted by NewBJedi
They need to mix the two if they want both people to be happy - or make a way for the server admin to tone down the blocks.

As far as making people happy, may I direct your attention to the poll at the top of this thread, and the many others like it on the forum?

Originally posted by NewBJedi
Or they need to make it so you have to manually block, nothing automatic - that would be more realistic - a simple key bind would do.

This is already in the game, though I'm not sure if it's accessible in multiplayer. The problem is that this would slow down combat tremendously, and blocking in the heat of battle would be even harder than in 1.02. People would rarely bother to block at all if you can't attack at the same time.

Originally posted by NewBJedi
Again, make that server side - manual vs. automatic blocking.

I doubt that's going to happen, but it's entirely feasible for someone to make a mod for this... Hell, they could make a mod that brings back 1.02's saber combat but leaves the other changes intact.

Aegis
05-09-2002, 02:59 PM
I'm with NewB on this one. They made the blocking to effective, thus making fights in FFA take much too long. I can undertsand that sort of blocking in a duel, but not when you have 6+ other people around, and the combat is supposed to be fast and furious.

Vanor
05-09-2002, 03:16 PM
Originally posted by Aegis
And the combat is supposed to be fast and furious.
Based on just what?

The saber fighting in the movies was fast and furious, but with most of the strikes being blocked. To me saber fighting is much more fast and furious now then it was in 1.02.

I will agree they could tone down blocking, and both sides would be a bit more happy, but the idea of getting rid of them tottaly, like NewBJedi said... Then there's really no point in installing the patch in the first place.

Many people wanted more blocking and a more SP type saber fighting in MP, so that's what Raven did.

ToKe
05-09-2002, 03:21 PM
hard call on this vote...for offense i'd say it's definately better.

for defense, i think a better system could be worked out. i would personally prefer to be in control of every aspect of my character (which is why i like the new offense). i think a defensive system based on where your crosshair is directed is common sense. a certain percentage of your crosshair must be "on target" with an incoming swing to block...and you must not be attacking to block. if you are attacking you should get a parry or saber lock depending on the arcs of the swings and where they meet.

i think overall this patch has improved the saber fighting just because the attacks are no longer random seeming. i can pull of a variety of attacks consistently in 1.03 which was not possible in 1.02.

Nill the Mean
05-09-2002, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Nill the Mean
God I hope they don't add manual blocking.
I can tell you now that you would end up dying A LOT.
Automatic blocking with say, a 30 degree radius in front of you would work much better.
The saber clashing is cool and everything but it happens far too much. You should be open for counterattack if you miss your swing. Makes sense to me.
They should also up the damage on all the attacks apart from backstab, which needs a nerf.

Wow, this guy really knows what he is talking about!

:p

DarkAgent
05-09-2002, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by Nill the Mean


Wow, this guy really knows what he is talking about!

:p

That was pretty mean, Nill :p

Hutchca
05-09-2002, 03:36 PM
I'm starting to figure it out now.
Tactics are very different now.
It's much more of a chess game now.

The most important thing I've learned is
You can't block if your swinging.

The trick is to anticipate what your oponent is going to do and time your swing just right. It's also important to choose your swing wisely to counter your oponents swing.
Swing only when your oponent is also about to swing and he can't block. Think about what's the best way to counter what your oponent is doing.
Example: If your oponent is using heavy stance and starting a forward overhead swing, use light stance and swing from the side. You can get in, hit him and get out before his blade comes down.

Also keep in mind that you'll do very little damage at the start and end of your swing, so time it to hit in the middle of your swing.

Just MHO

Bambers
05-09-2002, 03:53 PM
It seems to me that the combat is just much more realistic now.

The position of sabres seems to be tracked much more than before.

In 1.02 if you were swinging then you got hit, often with the 2 sabres passing straight through each other.

Now if the sabers collide they lock and slide or throw the person off of their move.

Much more impressive and much more skillful imo.

Hateplow
05-09-2002, 04:15 PM
I noticed sabre dmg was nerfed. I used yellow most of the time before the patch and Im relearning how to use it now. Before (1.2) yellow killed someone in 3-4 hits. Now it seems to take 6-7 hits to kill someone. Blues dmg is basicly the same but it is much, much easier to hit people with it. Red style is basicly the same expect for the DFA nerf. (thank you Raven:D )

Ferox
05-09-2002, 04:37 PM
uh.. am i insane or has blocking ALWAYS been automatic.


in 1.2 all ya had to do was stand there and not attack.. in 1.3 all you have to do is stand there and not attack.


am i missing something?

Vanor
05-09-2002, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Hateplow
I noticed sabre dmg was nerfed.
Actualy damage wasn't nerfed, other then at the very beging and very end of a swing in the heavy stance.

It still takes as many hits as it did before to kill someone, less actualy as they can't heal as much. But it seems to take more.

First off they block more, so it is harder to get a solid hit in. And they fixed the hit dectection. In 1.02 what should of been a near miss, was considered a hit. In 1.03 a near miss is a miss.

I know it seems like they nerfed the damage, but they really didn't. Just we all got use to hitting more offten, and having near misses count as hits.

Aegis
05-09-2002, 05:11 PM
Originally posted by Vanor

Based on just what?

The saber fighting in the movies was fast and furious, but with most of the strikes being blocked. To me saber fighting is much more fast and furious now then it was in 1.02.

I will agree they could tone down blocking, and both sides would be a bit more happy, but the idea of getting rid of them tottaly, like NewBJedi said... Then there's really no point in installing the patch in the first place.

Many people wanted more blocking and a more SP type saber fighting in MP, so that's what Raven did. I was refering to the game style. A FFa is exactly that, an FFA. With the patch, it loses it's speed, becuase people have to focus on one oppenant for a longer period of time, instead of killing/being killed by them.

Granted I do like many of the changes the patch made, but the ones I don't like are glaring, and have caused me to stop playing online, for the most part. The amount a player can block is just ridiculous, and the changes made to medium stance are completly unfounded. Aside from that, the patch is great, but they remove/changed my two favorite aspects of them. (Well, the blocking was there, but I did want some blocking to be put in, but as I said, the amount they put in is ridiculous)

Homosexual Ewok
05-09-2002, 05:22 PM
I'm just glad the days of having to watch two guys (using red stance) running around in a circle like two dogs sniffing each other's butts, waiting for the first one to swing so they can whack them in the can for a one hit kill are over.

This patch made the "run in, see if you opponent does something, take a shot at them if they do, run away, repeat" way of fighting pretty hard to pull off.

Personally I always favored aggressive fast paced game play, and this patch provides that. Granted the fights may last a little longer now, but it sure as Hell is not due to playing the "waiting game".

Vanor
05-09-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Aegis
The amount a player can block is just ridiculous, and the changes made to medium stance are completly unfounded. Aside from that, the patch is great, but they remove/changed my two favorite aspects of them. (Well, the blocking was there, but I did want some blocking to be put in, but as I said, the amount they put in is ridiculous)
I would agree the amount of blocking could be lowered, it wouldn't bother me if it wasn't, but it wouldn't bother me if it was either... To say half of what it is now.

As to the change to the med stance. I don't understand what your problem here is, the only change they made was, stopped the whirlling dervish thing, so you can't constantly spin in circles. I for one like med stance even better now then before.