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D.L.
05-09-2002, 05:25 PM
While there are a lot of people dissing Raven, saying they don't care about the game, sulking over the new patch, very few people are actually appreciating the effort they are making.

How many dev teams work so closly with the gaming community!? It's not present with a lot of games. Very few in fact.

If you sent an email to a dev member, normally you'd be waiting days for a reply. Sent an email to Michael Chang Gummelt today. He had replied with some excellent information and help regarding bot routes within 3 hours. That's excellent support.

How about everyone just takes a second to look back and see how damn helpful Raven have been over the last month, the game has being released?

I'm not against constructive critisicm of the patch. It's not perfect but it adds a lot to the MP aspect. The mindless trolls who bash the patch are really who this is aimed at.
Just a thought....

-Kztzphl
05-09-2002, 05:30 PM
A big thank you to Raven from me. You are the best! :D :)

JRA_Wolf
05-09-2002, 05:34 PM
Yup..RAVEN = Game Making Gods

Nill the Mean
05-09-2002, 05:35 PM
Harrumph!

I totally agree. I hope Raven don't pay any attention to those who don't back up their arguments. I'm sure they don't... but people make mistakes.
They have done good with grip/drain/heal/guns/DFA... but the blocking is overdone in my opinion... less sabre clashing during attack animations and more damage. And a smaller blokcing radius. Then the game will be even cooler!

posternutbag9d9
05-09-2002, 06:33 PM
Great Job Raven.. you made the game unplayable now that it takes up half your force to heal 20 whole health points! Now you get killed every time you fight with a saber from weapon spam... then you have times where you kill someone in a close battle just for them to spawn and finish you off since you can't heal. And luckily, raven didn't even change the level designs so that they would accomodate more healing! Great... Last game I buy from them. To totally change the entire design after people bought the game FOR that design...

D.L.
05-09-2002, 06:35 PM
:violin:

You don't have to install the patch.

rut-wa jodar
05-09-2002, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by posternutbag9d9
Great Job Raven.. you made the game unplayable now that it takes up half your force to heal 20 whole health points! Now you get killed every time you fight with a saber from weapon spam... then you have times where you kill someone in a close battle just for them to spawn and finish you off since you can't heal. And luckily, raven didn't even change the level designs so that they would accomodate more healing! Great... Last game I buy from them. To totally change the entire design after people bought the game FOR that design...



Go a give your head a soak in acid !! WHINER !! :violin:

OnlyOneCanoli
05-09-2002, 07:43 PM
I'd like to thank Raven as well. The game may not be perfect yet, but it has improved quite a bit, and I highly respect them for working closely with the community and trying their best to grant our wishes. Good form, Raven.

TheDarkSide
05-09-2002, 07:54 PM
This is a much needed thread. As someone who has emailed Mr. Gummelt several times for various questions about the game and editor, I can say it's definitely been the most positive company/consumer experience I've ever experienced. You can tell dealing with these guys that they're gamers at heart, and that they really do CARE what the community thinks and feels about their products.

A big hearty thank you from me!

:D

Thanks Raven!

[QGA]Vertigo
05-09-2002, 08:02 PM
Why is everyone giving his opinion about the patch a whiner ?

If he/she doesn't like it then he/she has all the right in the world to post his opinion here...

Instead of saying that they're whiners, why don't you try to give a few arguments as to why his arguments are wrong instead of just posting the violin smiley...

That said... i'd like to give my own reasons why I don't like the patch...

My gripes are mainly about the saber system. The nerfs of the forces I can understand (altho they overdid it a bit on the heal/drain and made absorb a tad too powerfull). The changes to the saber-system leave me clueless as to why they did that tho...

There's generally 2 things I don't like about the saber system...

At first, the blocking/parries of SP they put into MP...
While this might look nice and more "movie-like" it really narrows the gap between new people and more skilled people to the point that trying to play competitively is almost impossible without reverting to exploits or "cheap" moves. In SP this is perfect, due to the lag-free conditions, and because of the fact that it gives a nice change from fighting all the enemies who use guns against you. In MP however this just degrades the gameplay in such a way that in any FFA game you'll have an empty level, with every player concentrated in one big ball of sabers at an open place in that level, slashing wildly at each other while running around in that ball, or trying to use nothing but the backsweep, lightning (it's still the same, but due to the outragous blocking it has becom SO much more effective), or the dfa (yes, people are STILL abusing the dfa. The reason that it is possible is that everyone is running around in one big group, and they jsut have to do a dfa in the middle of that group to get a kill or 2).
While a few blocks might be good it is really overdone and it should be toned down by at least 75% (imo)
Servers could include a "SP saber system" option (or something like that) for the ones more interested in role-playing or who just want to see pretty graphics/movie-like fights.

Second... there's a system implemented to reduce damage at the beginning and the end of a saber-swing. While this is a good idea, it's overdone... a LOT. Damage at the beginning or ending of a red slash is almost nothing. It would make more sense if the damage difference would be something like 5 or 10... (wich means a minimum of 90-95 for a red slash)

There.... a post from someone who doesn't like the patch, complete with an explenation what I don't like, AND a few comments on how it could be improved...

Vestril
05-09-2002, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by JRA_Wolf in another thread--

Quoting DIRECTLY from my email inbox:

"We're not reverting to anything, complainers are just going to have to get used to it all over again, I guess... :/ "

Michael Chang Gummelt

Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II

Raven Software

www.ravensoft.com"

Put up or shut up, thanks bye.

I found this in a different thread...I was...incensed.

[QGA]Vertigo
05-09-2002, 08:58 PM
Uh, I'm 90% sure that that's BS and that he/she is just bluffing...

IF that would be the opinion of raven, they would have posted that here a LONG time ago.... heh.

:rolleyes:

Vestril
05-09-2002, 10:17 PM
I'm reallllllllly hoping it's BS

Jedi Legend
05-09-2002, 10:24 PM
There is a difference between constructive criticism and whining.

As for the e-mail, I don't care whether it's true or not. I doubt it's true.

TheDarkSide
05-09-2002, 10:25 PM
Vestril - I concur with Vertigo...as someone who has been in contact with Mr. Gummelt before, it really looks like a fabricated email. Not to mention, the guy posting it follows it up with two smart comments

Now put up or shut up, Thank you Bye.

and

you anti=patch junkies are going to be obsolete!

pretty much puts the nail in the coffin for me.

If Raven really felt like this, they wouldn't have listened to the complainers the first time around, and we wouldn't even have this patch.

Yesterday, I sent a question to Mr. Gummelt asking about the patch and how they feel about it, and his response was that they knew they wouldn't be able to please everybody and were monitoring things.

Sounds a lot more like ChangKhan, eh?


TDS

S!TH!NAT0R
05-09-2002, 10:30 PM
Thank You Raven, you rock!!
-JK2 is a great game and the 1.03 patch,though not perfect with a couple minor issues, is damn good! -Keep up the great work!:D
-SOF2 is going to own so freakin' bad! -I'm so addicted to the SOF2 MP test!:D :D :cool:

Vestril
05-09-2002, 10:45 PM
Yesterday, I sent a question to Mr. Gummelt asking about the patch and how they feel about it, and his response was that they knew they wouldn't be able to please everybody and were monitoring things.

Sounds a lot more like ChangKhan, eh?


TDS

Yay!! Thank you for making my fears go away. I'm really not that gullible, but...well it seemed too ridiculous to be a lie...

I really do respect Raven, but as someone said in a different thread, it really is kind of crazy of them to make huge changes in gameplay to a game that had already gotten some impressive reviews. It all seemed a little extreme to me. I don't expect them to reverse a lot of the changes, but I have a hard time enjoying the game as it is.

When I first started playing MP I loved it, straight off, and I tried to enjoy the game with the new patch and I just couldn't. I don't mean to say that it sucks, just that it made the game worse for me personally. I may be in a minority but it seems like making a number of rather drastic changes after the game had been out for only a month is premature.

It says to me that Raven doesn't have faith in their initial product,which causes me to lose faith in them. It's very nice to know they're watching and trying to meet the needs of the gaming comunity though :)

If this patch was any indicator they will probably cut back on many of the changes and continue to try and balance out, and I'll keep patching and hoping that one of the patches will allow me to enjoy the game as I once did.

TheDarkSide
05-09-2002, 10:58 PM
QGA Vertigo - your post is the first I've seen that goes into why you don't like the patch in a smart intelligent manner. You post actual facts and give situations, whereas 95% of the flames against the patch, say wholly incorrect things like "I hate this patch because it added the backsweep" or "this patch sucks, cuz now it takes no skill."

I'll take a small issue though with your claim that the patch

really narrows the gap between new people and more skilled people to the point that trying to play competitively is almost impossible without reverting to exploits or "cheap" moves.

This is true to a very small extent, the extent that when it came out everybody had to unlearn what worked in the old version, and figure out what works in the new version. From a results standpoint in the beginning you can say new people and skilled people are starting from the same point. But as a player of this patch on-line for three nights now, you can definitely see that there are skilled players with the patch that are advancing to the point of definitely being able to school the newbies with the new saber system. And I'm talking those who don't spam DFA or backswinging or the like.

In the end, your argument is true, but only for probably the first couple times you play the new patched version. Once you get the hang of it, your skill starts to take over. Trust me on this one! :)

TDS

TheDarkSide
05-09-2002, 11:12 PM
It says to me that Raven doesn't have faith in their initial product,which causes me to lose faith in them. It's very nice to know they're watching and trying to meet the needs of the gaming comunity though


To me, I think it's much more of the second part up there and not a lot of the first. They realize a couple a things. A) what it's like to be a gamer and what you generally want as one but also B) that the forums by no means compromise their entire community.
Plenty of people will buy this game and never even play MP, much less think to get on any forum to talk about the game and its good and bad points, or what patch they're going to run.

One thing that I find most disturbing about many of these posts against the patch is the lack of respect and insinuation that these people aren't doing their job, when in fact they may be doing it just a little too well. (note to all those who might flame, I didn't say you don't have the right to do that! Just that *I* find it disturbing)

TDS

Darksider
05-09-2002, 11:14 PM
Ignore the whining sheep Raven, JK2 is one of the best games ever after this patch

drallvekk
05-09-2002, 11:16 PM
CONS:

they removed all the medium stance moves

the backstab is to powerfull

less damage, it takes to long to kill someone (boring)

very limited hit indication

the hit range seems a bit too extended in every stance (unrealistic)

allows saber throw (as an option) in no force duel



PROS:

no more death from above spam

nice force adjustments

fixed some minor interface issues on the multi screen select

the ingame chat pop up box is cool (although it is over used)


the patch was a step in the right direction but all they had to do to the saber system was take out the dfa spam

[QGA]Vertigo
05-09-2002, 11:20 PM
To DarkSide...

Wow, first time I get a coherent responce to something I post, instead of the violing smiley :P

But yeah, after playing again for a few hours, I noticed that you tend to get better at it. I was doing pretty bad at first, and now kick most people's ass after a few hours of constant gaming, so there is some factor of skill in there anyhow... but... the majority of people who end up winning still seems to be the ones backstabbing/using the headless ckicken style in the light stance.
This is true for duel as well as (if not, a LOT worse) for FFA.
In a duel you'll see two people fighting, and now they'll actually move in closer to each other. While this is a good thing, the same happens in FFA. People tend to go at it in one huge chaotic group, making FFA games very random. Just before I stopped playing and checked these forums again, I tried an FFA game again, knowing that I had learned a lot about the new style of gameplay. After playing in a server for 20 minutes I still am convinced the new saber system destroys FFA playability AND still narrows down the gap between good players and less good players. Yes, I did end up 1st, but, only by a difference of 4 points, compared with the worst guy with a comparable time in the server (by some fluke I joined the server only seconds after it changed maps). I played about 5 duels in that server, and whenever I would challenge the guy who's last I'd always win. If I would be THAT better than that guy, then why is the difference in score between us so small ? I had 21, he had 17 kills...

I'm still of the same opinion that gameplay was better pre-patch.

Also, a factor that we need to look at is the bandwidth the game takes. With the SP saber system in MP comes a higher bandwidth usage, along with higher CPU usage for the server and higher pings. A server I normally ping 30 to now gives me pings of 70-80. This only started when that server (and other servers to wich I pinged similar, 30 pre-patch, 70-80 post-patch)converted to v1.03... Any server that's still v1.02 hasn't changed in terms of lag, so I'm 100% sure it's not my connect... yet another reason I don't like this patch.

Norvolt
05-09-2002, 11:22 PM
Raven thanks for the hard work in keeping JK2 interesting and constantly developing new upgrades to the game. We may not like all of the changes but he no one gets what they want. I for one like the patch and look forward to new ones but, not right now.

Aiee
05-09-2002, 11:23 PM
Originally posted by drallvekk

the ingame chat pop up box is cool (although it is over used)

I just have to ask.... How can a box that pops up when people are away be overused?

[QGA]Vertigo
05-09-2002, 11:24 PM
In a duel, some people put up the chat box, type 3 words, and wait for their force to be replenished while the ther waits...

Aiee
05-09-2002, 11:27 PM
Ah. Point taken. I usually play no force, but I'm sure I wouldn't have problem with people doing that. In a duel game, once the first saber clash has taken place, I don't stop fighting until my opponent is dead. I've had too many players turn off their saber, then run at me and turn it on in the last second to be lenient on them.

It's unfair to those who really do have to leave, of course, but that just serves them right for not visiting the bathroom while they were in spec. ;]

Vestril
05-09-2002, 11:38 PM
I've had too many players turn off their saber, then run at me and turn it on in the last second to be lenient on them.


Completely OT, but I know exactly what you mean, it annoyed me too and is why I stopped being nice about it. Before the fight it one thing, during is another.

S!TH!NAT0R
05-10-2002, 12:52 AM
To all of you Anti-patch peeps.......
.......You must unlearn what you have learned before 1.03-LOL:p

JRA_Wolf
05-10-2002, 01:06 AM
You think I'm fabricating the email? If you want, I will forward a copy of the email including my original message to you, if you wish. I give oyu my word though, that I do not stoop to such levels as to forge documents to proove a trivial point. I'm not that type of person.

JRA_Wolf
05-10-2002, 01:09 AM
um, just a quick note after rereading some of the posts...
TheDarkSide: "Put up or shut up", "blah blah you guys are obsolete, blah blah"...those were MY comments..notice they are outside of the quotations. Everything INSIDE the quotations is quoted directly from my email box from Michael Gummelt...

UGG
05-10-2002, 03:07 AM
If you sent an email to a dev member, normally you'd be waiting days for a reply. Sent an email to Michael Chang Gummelt today. He had replied with some excellent information and help regarding bot routes within 3 hours. That's excellent support.Tell me about it! :)

BoBo_Fett and I are amazed at how helpful James Monroe and Mike Gummelt are. Sure, it may be part of their jobs but it just shows how professional they are. They must get flooded with requests for help but they have not yet ignored any of mine.

D.L.
05-10-2002, 09:22 AM
Here's the two emails I got regarding the patch. I told him I was very happy with it, which I am. Obilerated n00bs last night on Nar Shadda but that's another story ;)

Email 1:
Yeah, I expected some people to freak, that's natural. But I also see some
of them changing their minds and saying they like the changes now that
they've gotten over the initial shock.

To which I replied, "Yeah I suppose you can't please everyone"

Email 2:
Yes, if you try to please everyone all the time, you'll just end up
disappointing everyone.

But I also got this when I asked about pernamently changing saber colors in SP, without using the sabercolor cheat or altering the cfg file.

All you'd have to change is the sabers.shader (just extract it and edit
the blue saber shader entry to use the orange saber art). However, I think
the glow will stay blue...? The only real way to do it is to put it in some
.cfg file, I guess (sorry, the saber colors were not really designed with
easy customization in mind... at one point we were only allowed to have 2 or
3 colors at all). Maybe if there's another patch or something, we might try
to make this easier to modify.


There might be another patch, nothing is confirmed yet but if all the whiners (and I mean the people with Raven ruined the Game, Waaa, Waaa :violin: not the ones offering good constructive criticism) quit their whihng and actually provide reasonable arguments, I am sure Raven will listen. NewBJedi is a good example of this :thumbsup:

[QGA]Vertigo
05-10-2002, 10:24 AM
....as am I ;) [/EGO]

Chewie Bakker
05-10-2002, 10:33 AM
Jedi Outcast is the first game I've ever e-mailed a Game Programmer before, so Raven gets a thumbs up from me. :)

Jedi Outcast is also the most fun game I've played for a long time, so Raven gets another thumbs up. :)

Jedi Outcast is also... wait. I've ran out of thumbs.

;)

My main contention:
1. Jedi Outcast is cool.
2. Raven Software is cool

:yobi: (wulu@ihug.com.au)

TheDarkSide
05-10-2002, 10:45 AM
jra_ wolf:
I knew those were your comments, but I'm not so sure everyone who read it did. People were getting fairly upset, and being that it seemed to be an inflammatory post on your part in a thread started and made for anti-patch people, along with the fact that in the bunch of emails I've sent to him, I've never gotten a response like that (even on the one I sent about the patch and its reaction), I put forth that it's most likely a fake.

I'll take you at your word, but if you had included your original message I'm sure it would make his response make alot more sense. What was the phrasing of your question to him?

TDS

Borf
05-10-2002, 10:55 AM
Originally posted by Darksider
Ignore the whining sheep Raven, JK2 is one of the best games ever after this patch

<applaudes>

D.L.
05-10-2002, 12:43 PM
Bump

:thumbsup: RAVEN

JRA_Wolf
05-10-2002, 03:09 PM
As you wish:


"We're not reverting to anything, complainers are just going to have to get used to it all over again, I guess... :/

Michael Chang Gummelt

Gameplay Programmer: Jedi Knight II

Raven Software

www.ravensoft.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Wolf/Okami [mailto:wolf@mysticdale.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 3:23 PM
To: Gummelt, Mike
Subject: About the patch...


Hey,

I just wanted to say: Awesome job on the patch. I can't speak for everyone, obviously, but I love it and appreciate all of the hard work you guys at RAVEN have done to balance out the game and make it a far more enjoyable game. I am worried though..you see, I am on a Sattelite internet connection so I get horrible pings..right around 600 - 700. before the patch with all the DFA spamming I really didn't stand a chance...now after the patch I can actually play in duel servers and have FUN. I'm worried because I have this feeling that you guys might revert the game back to 1.02...Can you confirm or deny this? My future of playing JK2 online hangs on this problem, until the source code is released and someone makes a mod where DFA isn't even possible..

Thanks as always,

JRA_Wolf AKA,
- Okami
wolf@mysticdale.com
Death Smiles at us all...All we can do is smile back"

Perniciosus
05-10-2002, 03:48 PM
Personally, I don't see why JRA_Wolf would feel the need to "fabricate" an e-mail. What would it possibly serve? It would be one thing if he didn't like the patch, because then I could say: 'Yeah, he made that up just to give the anti-patch crowd a rallying cry'. However, that's not the case because he likes the patch and it's not like anti-patch people need anything more than the patch itself to be angry. ;)

However, I will say this: I have a personal set of guidelines when I'm writing to a company to make a complaint about a product. The letter must be well articulated, well thought out, to the point and include what I feel needs to be changed. My letter to Raven was no different than any other professional complaint letter I have written and went three pages in 10-point Tahoma font, but, if the reply to JRA_Wolf's e-mail is any indication, I wasted my time, my 34 cents and my printer toner.

I've praised Raven on the forums and I praised them in the aforementioned letter, yet the impression I get from that response is that they're taking the standpoint of: "We got their $49.99 and gave them a patch, so screw them."

I had come into this thread to praise Raven, but that e-mail has caused me to reconsider. There is to be no praise from me for a company who blatently calls its customers "complainers" and who won't be open minded enough to read and/or respond to well thought out, professionally courteous letters of complaint.

JRA_Wolf
05-10-2002, 04:01 PM
Complainers/whiners = "I HATE THIS PATCH IT SUX RAVEN SUX IM LEAVING BYE". The people who actually gave their reasons for not liking the patch, in a polite and well mannered way, I have nothing but the utmost respect for, and I don't think ChangKhan was grouping them in the term "Complainers"..

TheDarkSide
05-10-2002, 07:13 PM
JRA_wolf: Thanks for the posting!

I'd have to agree with your assessment. We'll never know for sure I guess unless ChangKhan comes on to explain it himself, but from all my dealings with him, he's been absolutely the best company representative I think I've ever dealt with in any company that I've bothered to communicate with. :)

You're right I think with your definition of what Raven is considering 'complainers'. Think about it people! Who DO you listen to in your place of employment, the people who come up to you and tell you "You suck!" or the ones who say "We like what your product(service, whatver it is you do), but this wasn't exactly what we were looking for, what don't you try this, because of that."

Few people who have presented negative feedback about the patch in a reasonable way whose presentation wouldn't automatically discredit whatever it is they are trying to say. If you notice in the original "patch suggestion thread", from whence elements of the current patch came, NOBODY was on there saying "THIS GAME IS RUINED BECAUSE OF <X>, I'm going back to MOHAA". You had people posting the problems they had and suggestions for re-balance. All the while, they were STILL playing the game, not running away in a fit of self-righteous, ha-rumph indignity at being given such a "shoddy" product to begin with. They were adapting and biding their time, hoping that Raven would listen. No calls for mass retreats to Quake 3, or MoHAA or RTCW. And Raven listened, and did some, but by no means everything that was listed on that thread.

To automatically assume, the "whiners" got their way in this patch is pretty insulting to Raven. You're saying they didn't do any testing to see if these things were balanced? They just read a couple of posts, and then ran to their workstations,without thinking about anything or having any meetings on what to do, changed the code to comply, and shipped it out the door? Give them some credit. Come on.

TDS

Jedi Legend
05-10-2002, 11:26 PM
Perniciosus, how can you honestly think you are wasting your time? Just because they aren't reverting to anything does not mean they won't take suggestions into consideration. I can see how you would think you are wasting your time, if that was the one e-mail that you read in this thread.

I don't really understand what's so offensive about the e-mail.