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View Full Version : Post patch: Yes, I feel cheap...


Spider AL
05-10-2002, 12:03 AM
Those that know my name know that I am one of those evil fewls who gets his name at the top of the scoreboard as much as humanly possible. Yes, I DFA'ed. A lot. Yes, I pushed people over and shot them. Yes, I sniped, repeater-hogged, shot people fighting in groups...

But I did all these things with honour. I mean, I always gave my opponents a chance. I let them pull their sabre before knocking them off the cliffs... I let them pick up that rocket launcher before running for the compactor activation console and crushing them. I always fought sabre battles for a minute or two before finishing them off with a DFA.

With this new patch, I was hoping that I wouldn't have to DFA to win the match. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to slam absorb up constantly during duels to avoid drainers... In fact, I was hoping for balance.

But something strange has happened... Two days playing the patch, and I, even I suddenly feel cheap and nasty, and dishonourable. It's the backstabs you see. The backstabs can kill in one strike. They cut through blocks and shields like butter... And I can't stop using them. They work well. They do the job, and fast. But tonight, I was on a server and saw one man... who might as well have been me, for I have been doing the same thing... Strong style backstab. Over and over. He was walking around backwards... And I saw him work, and he racked up kills, because yes, he was skilled at using the backstabs... and I thought "how cheap." And then it hit me, that man... was me.

I've never felt cheap before. The same technique, over and over... That's what I have to use to win, because it's the fastest, most effective and most unblockable technique there is. If I were to sabre fight in other ways, I would be spending precious time on one person that I could be spending on grabbing ammo and blasting the rest of the people. And you'd better believe there's another guy on the server that will use that one technique over and over even if you're not willing to use it yourself. And he will win. On sabres only servers, what else can you do? And now on guns servers, with ammo depleted, what else can you use? I run out of ammo, I backstab. I've played for about ten hours since the patch was released, and it's gotten more and more repetitive and less and less interesting. I've suddenly realised that the one word someone used to describe the game post-patch, was absolutely apt. JO is now neutered.

I'm primarily a lightsider. When I realised how cheap the patch had made FFA winning, I played a match as a darksider to see what changes had affected them. I was astonished. Before the patch, a good darksider could challenge me. Now, what use is drain against lightsiders like me? No use at all. It takes a tiny amount of mana away even if I'm slow at activating absorb.

Before the patch, a fast gripper might have had a chance to grab me and throw me over the side of a cliff before I activated absorb. Now, no chance at all. Lightning? I've been killed by lightning a grand total of ten times since the game was released... Even if it were beefed up, what good does it do a darksider against a lightsider? Or against a darksider with a gun?

As for the light side, I don't waste my mana on heal now. It's no use in a duel match at all. It was never very useful in FFA.

And as for team games, at first I thought it might be a minor shift in power... But it seems I was wrong, having played some more matches tonight. CTF for example... Absorb has neutered defenders. An experienced attacker runs in with speed and absorb... he's quite likely to dodge all gunshots, and if he grabs the flag and legs it, who's going to stop him? push won't affect him, it'll merely feed him. Any sabre attacks on the way in or out will be blocked... It's a nightmare.

So let's recap: The patch has reduced me, an experienced duellist and FFAer to using a single, boring technique, over and over again so often, that it EVEN BORES ME.

It's annoyed experienced CTFers because of the neutering of gun-use.

It's made the Dark Side a pale shadow when compared to the sun-like glory of the light side, and I AM a lightsider, so it's hard for me to admit that.

People have always accused me of using the same technique a lot, because I've always done what works, what's necessary to win. But now, I'm starting to agree with them, which is terrifying.

The patch has made winning boring, in my opinion. I didn't think it was possible, but tonight, I'm bored of winning FF FFAs. I'm bored of defeating foes in CTF. I'm bored of duels which end when someone's backstab finally connects.

And I'm tired of running backwards. Maybe I should paint eyes onto Kyle's backside.

What I think should be changed:

The DFA's problem wasn't its power, it was the ability to turn, and the ludicrously long sideways and forward range of the attack. All that needed to be changed was the turning, and the attack range.

Too much blocking means slow sabre fights, so slow that I just give up and shoot the person or shove them over the edge, rather than fighting them. That's not the way things should be, surely? IMO the blocking percentages are way off base. In 1 on 1 duels sure, block all you want, because there's nothing else to do but sabre fight... but in FFA or team games, who wants to stand around slowly nicking away at one person's health?

The backstabs are ludicrously powerful. Another one-hit-kill has replaced the DFA, and one wonders... what was the point?

Drain has been stripped of any power at all. Too far in the right direction, methinks. It's just not a danger to anyone anymore.

Heal... what exactly is the point of this? Three points sunk into one power and what do you get? A single health pack's worth for half your stock of mana. Surely ALL the powers should be desirable and useful, or why have them at all?

Spider's verdict:

1.03 favours Lightsiders like me, disadvantages Darksiders, removes any need to duel with the sabre, (backstab instead) and (So WD_Rage and others say,) makes a mockery of CTF.

It also introduces two fun-filled concepts:

Running backwards while bent forwards so that you can see who's behind you, so that you look utterly and completely ludicrous, and miss all the scenery except the floor textures. Let the buttocks show ye the way forward, young Padawan.

And the second, the concept of utterly useless Force Powers. Heal and Drain now sit in a world of their own as the most completely feeble "powers" ever to possess the name. I hereby dub Heal and Drain "Force Weaknesses" rather than "Force Powers."

Let me finally make clear, I haven't lost a FF FFA, or a FF duel, since I downloaded the patch. This is not a rant born from the frustration of a loser, but instead the frustration of a winner.

I'm off to play 1.02. Yes, I'll have to put up with DFAers and drain-happy madmen, but in my considered opinion, it's preferable.

PurplWulf
05-10-2002, 12:10 AM
well I can't speak for the weapons aspect of the game because I'm a saberer, but as for the backsweep, guess what?

when you go back to 1.02, you're gonna see it used alot more now, and it's more effective pre-patch than it is post-patch.

the only reason you didn't see as much before was because so many people realized how easy DFA was and other spams, but now that a whole new crop of players has discovered it again, you can bet you'll be seeing it more and more no matter what version you're using, unless of course, Raven fixes that in a later patch.


the purple one

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 12:19 AM
You're right about the proliferation of backsweep Purpl, but I simply cannot stand the nerfing of drain, grip, heal, guns, and the slow, boring sabre fights.

As for the usage of backsweep, at least I'll be able to hit an opponent twice with heavy style and kill them, rather than waiting for their backsweep to connect while I chip mindlessly away at their health, lucky if they do not block me completely inadvertantly.

Ko'or Oragahn
05-10-2002, 12:24 AM
because yes, he was skilled at using the backstabs...

What a skill !... *rolleyes*

:D

jmcdavel
05-10-2002, 12:25 AM
Very well written Spider, sums up my thoughts perfectly.

Zek
05-10-2002, 12:27 AM
Saber fights in 1.03 are rarely slow and boring for me; many of them last no more than 30 seconds. The ones that are longer at least remain interesting because there's rarely a dull moment, as opposed to the constant running around in 1.02.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 12:30 AM
Zek, a fight against someone like me (at least in FF which I frequent) will ALWAYS be short. One hit kill. One hit, and you're dead. I don't want to play like that, I doubt anyone does... But it's the way things are. All the patch has done is decreased Darksiders' defences against my one-hit-kills, and made headless-chicken-style the order of the day.

[QGA]Vertigo
05-10-2002, 12:30 AM
Spider....

I totally agree with you... (except for the fact that I'm not a spammer whatsoever :D )

Darksider
05-10-2002, 12:31 AM
I was hoping that I wouldn't have to DFA to win the match

You dont have to do any such thing. If you do, it simply indicates a lack of skill on your part. That is not a justification for DFA whoring :-

Aiee
05-10-2002, 12:34 AM
Headless-chicken-style is easily counterable though.

Try a nice little saber throw at your opponent, because there's no way they'll block while spinning like that. the light stance lunge and the medium stace special move do a good job at hitting the spinning top without hurting you as well.If you do a triple-chain of heavy attacks at a headless chicken, and keep your aim at them throughout the combo, they'll be dead atthe end of it, because they won't be able to block your moves very well.

Heck, every so often, one of the spins has that really slow bit where they're nearly standing still before bringing their saber back up. that's your cue to run in and hit them with a medium stance slash for 20-30hp.

TheDarkSide
05-10-2002, 12:35 AM
Purplwolf,

I've been trying to make that point for a bazillion threads now.
The backsweep is in v1.02, and it's even more powerful than it is in the new patch.

Your added point that now the community knows about it and will surely spam it worse in v1.02 is a good one. I've been on these forums standing up for the patch, and I'll admit it's overtweaked somethings, but you'll never get me to say the old version was better. In my mind, it simply was not.

Raven has already said they will tweak the backswing. I believe it is in one of the sticky threads up top....unfortunately for the 1.02 reverters it'll mean to get it, you'll have to live with whatever survives from 1.03 to 1.04 :)

Folks listen, Raven does care about what you think, and if you post constructive things, like Spidey has here, you will find them more than willing to listen than if you post "patch sux, oh well v1.02 here I come".

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 12:43 AM
You dont have to do any such thing. If you do, it simply indicates a lack of skill on your part.

Oh what a load of rot. The point of a patch was to REMOVE cheap moves, not make a cheap move easier to do, which is the effect it's had! Since Raven have accidentally left the move in there, people will use it! Since I wish to win, I must match move-for-move, those players who rival me on FFA servers, thus I must use cheap moves in order to win. The fact that normal sabre swings do less damage now only makes it MORE likely that a player will resort to a 1 hit kill.

Headless-chicken-style is easily counterable though.

DFA was easily counterable, but that doesn't mean it should have been left as it was, eh? ;)

geronimo27
05-10-2002, 12:48 AM
Originally posted by PurplWulf
well I can't speak for the weapons aspect of the game because I'm a saberer, but as for the backsweep, guess what?

when you go back to 1.02, you're gonna see it used alot more now

Well, let's go back to reality and fact. I run a 1.02 saber only server, and guess what? People in fact do NOT run around backwards trying to backstab others. In fact, I have seen zero increase in backstabs since before the patch was released.

Aiee
05-10-2002, 12:49 AM
I challenge you to find a single post by me pre-patch that mentions takng out DFA. ;]

I like the changes to DFA post-patch, because it makes SENSE that someone shouldn't be able to rotate in the air, just like they can't rotate in the light lunge. And it makes SENSE that someone poking your toe with the top of their lightsaber from underground won't kill you instantly.

Headless chickens are in there for now. I am not Raven. I cannot give you a patch that removes them. I merely present you with the methods I've found to combat them so far, in the hope that you will find them as effective as I have, and that you will find the game more enjoyable overall once you've mastered the changes put forth in the patch.

My motives, as always, remain entirely transparent.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 12:50 AM
Geronimo's information proves one of my points to an extent, that the number of heavy-damaging moves that DIDN'T involve running around waving your buttocks in front of you, meant that backstab moves were undesirable.

(edit)

I challenge you to find a single post by me pre-patch that mentions takng out DFA

My comments that DFA should indeed have been nerfed has nothing to do with you personally Aiee, I fail to see why you are taking it as such.

it makes SENSE that someone shouldn't be able to rotate in the air, just like they can't rotate in the light lunge. And it makes SENSE that someone poking your toe with the top of their lightsaber from underground won't kill you instantly.

And it makes sense that all the force powers have a use, otherwise why are they there at all? Drain and heal are now of no use. They might as well have been removed.

I merely present you with the methods I've found to combat them so far, in the hope that you will find them as effective as I have, and that you will find the game more enjoyable overall once you've mastered the changes put forth in the patch.

Well that's very patronising of you, and it presupposes that I have any problem at all winning with the patch. I have no such problem, quite the reverse, as I've made some of my very best times for making over a hundred kills, since the patch was released! Haha, no, to use common parlance I "own" with the patch. The fact that I'm still winning has nothing to do with my concerns however. The patch has imbalanced the game ludicrously, while trying to balance it. I do not wish to win by using exclusively cheap kills, and I wish that they be removed so that I might not be forced to use them, as I currently am.

I am not Raven. I cannot give you a patch that removes them.

Once again you seem to be taking this as a personal request to you, from me, that you aid me in removing such cheapness. Rest assured I do not require your assistance in such a venture, nor should you trouble yourself further in this manner, as your involvement has no relevence to me personally, in this current debate.

(/edit)

Cow_JK:O
05-10-2002, 01:06 AM
I myself never really used DFA. I did decently well, I wasn't the best but I had a lot of fun. I prided myself on dodging and evading then strategically planning a heavy sideswipe. Unfortunately, the fun has been taken away because of things Spidey has already gone to great lengths to explain.

Just today I tried the backstab, I had never done it before. This move is sick. I got 40 on a server when the next closest person was 20. I am NOT a very skilled player. That is looney. I will admit that it was fun, if very unfair.

If I were to ask for changes...

Keep the DFA nerfed, that was wise.

Keep heal and drain nerfed. (People think this is silly but I'm thinking FFA balance here. This, IMHO is why everyone said heavy was cheap. In FFA with heal and drain it was almost impossible for anyone but an INCREDIBLY skilled player to get a kill with anything but heavy because of the fact that if someone with heal/drain was hit by light or medium, they immediately hit heal. Back to 100. The only solution was a heavy hit. Keeping this nerfed would give more validity to medium and light, particurally light.)

Keep light stance buffed, that was a good change to make a lacking stance better.

Get rid of the blocking, it prolongs fights, which is fine for duels, but just takes away a lot of the fast paced fun of FFA and CTF. Similar CTF problems to what others have said. There are plenty of other reasons for that too.

Revert heavy and medium. They were FINE. Medium was perfectly balanced, heavy was just right (it was easy to dodge and took skill to do effectively, so no screams please) outside of DFA.


I know many, many people will call me a whiner and say these changes would screw the patch they love. I'm merely stating what I would love to see happen.

And of course, NERF BACKSTAB!

GooglyMoogly
05-10-2002, 01:13 AM
So what you are saying is that you have NO self control and your desire to WIN outweighs EVERYTHING else in this game.

"Yeah..its a shame what backstab can do...but I must use it because everyone else is...oh wait...now the game sucks"

Simple solution DON'T USE THE FRIGGIN MOVES!!!!. If you are so compelled to be the victor than USE THE FRIGGIN MOVES and shut up.

Your entire complaint is MOOT!

Cow_JK:O
05-10-2002, 01:16 AM
This is not a personal flame, Googly, but I feel you missed his point.

What he is saying is that he just wants to have fun. Between the new patch causing fights to take forever (among other things) and many other players doing it, it is the only way for him to have fun. I can really relate to that because I very much enjoyed the faster paced combat of pre-patch. (That is how I interpert it)

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 01:19 AM
(edit) No, why bother responding to Googly. (/edit)

My point stands.

Nill the Mean
05-10-2002, 01:21 AM
I have played a lot with the patch and I love it's depth and detail. The saber battles are indeed a lot more complex and require better timing. But I still think some things should be changed for the sake of balance/playability.

I won't be discussing force or guns because I don't think these things have been nerfed badly at all. I still find grip/drain/heal to be very usefull. The alt-fire guns just need more accuracy now... if you run out of ammo, you always still have the force/saber so that should do you good untill you get more ammo, I think.

1. Clashing during attack animations should either be delayed or toned down a bit. Right now the sabers clash very frequently during attack animations. Reducing it a bit would allow the battles to speed up a bit which I think would improve playability (fast = fun, ususally).

2. Bocking frequency is fine now, you feel a lot safer trying to block incoming hits. In 1.02 I thought blocking was a bit tame... Sometimes hits seemed to just break through for no apparent reason. However, if the radius was turned down to about 30 degrees, then I think there would be a lot more satisfaction in blocking. I tested today to see what radius you could block things in... I found that you can block things attacking 90 degrees to either side of you... a bit overdone. I'm really not pulling your leg here, try it, it works. In addition, on rare occasions, players seem to block things behind them. Thus, toning down the radius would make it more convincing and still far from usesless.

3. Up the damage on all attacks apart from backstab. I think people could stand to die a little quicker than they do now. Not that you would, you could play very carefully and not get hit, of course. It would make the fights seem more "lethal" in my opinion. I think it should never take more than 4-6 clean hits to kill someone. With the current blocking system, good players would still beable to survive for a long time, yet they have the potential to end it very quickly. As for backstab, I personally don't think it is such a big problem... however I have seen people do this and I don't think it should be encouraged. Make it less effective than attacking stuff in front of you, but not by much.

I suggested this stuff earlier for the next patch.
In addition to people saying Absorb is overpowered: How so? Absorb doesn't help you rack in kills, it merely defends you. It won't do you any good against someone with a gun/saber. As for drain being nerfed, good. Now people wil use it to get in that needed health instead of just draining like crazy. Heal is also fine the way it is, IMO. If you need to heal more, then just start playing defensively. And I don't see how grip is nerfed. On thin walkways you can still be flung off in no time whatsoever if you aren't carefull.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 01:23 AM
In addition to people saying Absorb is overpowered: How so?

Just with regards to that, I think Absorb appears overpowered to some because it is so much more powerful than the dark side counterpart powers now. Drain and grip having been nerfed and all.

GooglyMoogly
05-10-2002, 01:26 AM
LOL..I just find it EXTREMELY ironic that he admits to be a cheap-kill-whore...

POINT BEING:

It's the PLAY STYLE like his that caused SO MANY people to bitch and moan until the game was patched...LOL...don't you see?

Spider has no one to blame but himself. Poor lad.

Next!

drallvekk
05-10-2002, 01:27 AM
CONS:

they removed all the medium stance moves

the backstab is to powerfull

less damage, it takes to long to kill someone (boring)

very limited hit indication

the hit range seems a bit too extended in every stance (unrealistic)

allows saber throw (as an option) in no force duel



PROS:

no more death from above spam

nice force adjustments

fixed some minor interface issues on the multi screen select

the ingame chat pop up box is cool (although it is over used)


the patch was a step in the right direction but all they had to do to the saber system was take out the dfa spam

GooglyMoogly
05-10-2002, 01:31 AM
Originally posted by Cow_JK:O
This is not a personal flame, Googly, but I feel you missed his point.

What he is saying is that he just wants to have fun. Between the new patch causing fights to take forever (among other things) and many other players doing it, it is the only way for him to have fun. I can really relate to that because I very much enjoyed the faster paced combat of pre-patch. (That is how I interpert it)

No offense taken.

Mob Rules.

Sure Spider wants to have fun, but he never considered how he may be ruining other peoples fun. His point of view is entirely selfish. I'm sorry the new patch took away his "fun"...but in the long run many more people can now have fun because their goal IS to have fun and not win at ANY expense.

See my above post about the irony as well.

As far as I'm concerned one less player like him is a good thing.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 01:32 AM
LOL..I just find it EXTREMELY ironic

Another one who doesn't understand the meaning of the word "irony." Seek a dictionary, not an Alanis Morissette song.

It's the PLAY STYLE like his that caused SO MANY people to bitch and moan until the game was patched...LOL...don't you see?

Ahh so you're admitting that the patch has had a negative effect on the game,.. but you're accusing me of having a hand in it?

How very odd you are. Also you USE CAPS FAER TEO MECH!!!11

:D

(edit)

Sure Spider wants to have fun, but he never considered how he may be ruining other peoples fun. His point of view is entirely selfish.

Classic whining fare. How does my winning deprive you of your fun? I don't interrupt sabre duels, I don't crow over the fallen when I've defeated them... unless they do it to me first, of course. No, you and your kind whine about "not having any fun" because you lose, and can't explain it in any other way than "YUO R CHEEP!!11"

I'm sorry the new patch took away his "fun"...but in the long run many more people can now have fun because their goal IS to have fun and not win at ANY expense.

And of course, you've proven my point here. Because, why would I be posting in this way, unless I didn't want to win at any expense. If I just wanted to win at any cost, I wouldn't care that I'm being forced to join in the cheap technique usage in order to secure victory. QED.

As far as I'm concerned one less player like him is a good thing.

I think you've gotten the wrong end of the stick here. I'm not going to stop playing. I'm not even going to stop playing 1.03. No, what I'm going to do is constructively lobby for the changes I wish in 1.04. And by god, I'll give it my best shot. Ithankyou.

(/edit)

GooglyMoogly
05-10-2002, 01:48 AM
This'll be my last post... my use of the word ironic was spot on in this situation.

I have nothing against you Spider..I don't want this to degenerate into a cat fight. You are entitled to your opinion and play style...but can't you see how your actions (pre 1.03) directly affected what got changed in the patch?. Now you sit here and complain.

i·ro·ny Pronunciation Key (r-n, r-)

Incongruity between what might be expected and what actually occurs: “Hyde noted the irony of Ireland's copying the nation she most hated” (Richard Kain).

"Googly noted the irony of Spiders complaints about the game changes he himself caused to come about."

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 02:11 AM
This'll be my last post...

Good, you added nothing but ignorance to the thread. Begone. :D

I have nothing against you Spider..

Could have fooled me... or do you always tell complete strangers to "shut up?" You insulting "person."

I don't want this to degenerate into a cat fight.

You scratched my face, I'll scratch yours. Meow.

but can't you see how your actions (pre 1.03) directly affected what got changed in the patch?. Now you sit here and complain.

Frankly no, your idea that people who won a lot affected the finished version of the patch is nonsensical. Those who WHINED affected this patch. The fact that people (like yourself) whine when I defeat them, is their fault, their problem and their character flaw. Whiners like yourself, are the people who are totally, and completely, to blame for the terrible monotony of version 1.03 of JO, in my opinion.

"Googly noted the irony of Spiders complaints about the game changes he himself caused to come about."

Wow Googly, you really are damn good at this irony thing. I think you should be given an honorary doctorate in ironical studies.

:rolleyes:

Etz
05-10-2002, 02:37 AM
For some reason I feel this post will make me look bit stupid, none the less...

Spider Al, you can write, you're good player and most of all you seem smart. Now Raven is going to put another patch which will with no doubt tweak things again. It will probably kill the cheapness backsweep is right now and more. How ever I doubt they'll think of everything. That's the power we have, as there are only so many ppl working at Raven. Of course they'll have had lots of feedback from players and they've probably read some of the posts here at forums (but probably not all of them, there are just too many). How ever this is where you come in. Most people who write emails to Raven do it with good intention, but you know how to write well (if my english skills are worth anything :)) so have you considered to write your own email to them?

What I fear is that Raven will make the changes too linear, they nerfed healing by making it less effective. Now with ppl saying it's not worth using anymore they may up the effect a bit, but do you think that will solve anything? Because what somebody said about healing in FFA fights was true, anything but red was rather useless (especially if you wanted to rack kills fast, which you I believe, want to do). So instead of just changing a numeric value (how much healing it does) why not forcing heal user to walk while healing, and remove the insta effect it now has. Make it heal gradually but still fast enough to be usefull. (No I didn't think about this overly much, so yes the above probably sucked in game, it's just an example :))

Now the point of my post is not to lick thy arse, and much of what I say comes out rather cumbersomely (is that a word?) because I'm not native english speaker. What I'm suggesting is that why don't ppl like you (Spider Al), and few others on these forums who have actually written something intelligent compared to what most posters ramble, get together on an IRC channel or something (or on these forums), and put your heads together to think of good solutions for all the problems you see. And also to think what Raven (or even your selves) might not see at the first glance (like the backsweep problem we now have).

Then write a long and well articulated email to Raven. And no, I don't believe they'd just go "ooh, how wise these ppl are, let us just do what they say", but you might notice things they don't, and cause some more ideas to flow around at their end. No matter how professional game designers they are, they wont notice everything.

Just a thought.

FW_anty_kryste
05-10-2002, 02:40 AM
well, Spidey old pal, i have to admit something here... you do abuse certain moves and combos for the sake of winning above all else... it's the corruption of tournament living, my friend. before the patch, you used DFA but complained about it being overused. now you do and say the same about the backswing. you've known me for years, and i've always had the same attitude... i'd rather enjoy losing an honset round than depise winning a cheap one. i understand your reasoning behind the need to match your opponents' moves, which regretably means matching cheap moves as well, in order to score... but if you think about it... what good are points which are only counted by yourself? my suggestion to anyone who has complaints about the game or patch as far as balance in strengths and weaknesses is to just relax, calm down, and play the game the way you'd like to play the game... if that means you do your best to piss everyone off, then you'll get voted out... if you do your best to play a good clean game, then win or lose you're bound to be shown some respect... but if all you want to do is rack up as many points as you can, then why not just wait for a tourney when the points actually count for something besides ego? a game is a game, and nothing more... it should be played as such... competition leads to the dark side, Spidey, but you already knew this. :fett:

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 02:46 AM
*Spider AL squashes Anty* :rolleyes:

Cheers Etz, I'll certainly write such an e-mail, but furthermore I'll organise as many people as I can to aid me in the cause. One voice alone in the wilderness, In space no-one can hear you scream etc. Ahem. :D

Nill the Mean
05-10-2002, 02:58 AM
I'm all for listing what we think should be changed. I'll help you out if I can. I owe you for that last duel you played me at. Remember me? I had half your frags without any spamming. You said you were going, I challenged you to one last duel... and I beat you! I'm sure luck won't favor me next time ;).
I'm not quite clear as to what you think should be changed though. You indicated what is wrong quite clearly, but how do you suggest it should be fixed in the next patch? I presume you realise that saying we should go back to 1.02 combat will probably never happen, in case that might be what you want.

Etz
05-10-2002, 03:24 AM
I doubt going back to 1.02 is possible (or even recommended) either.

One thing that bugs me is 'special moves'. I mean what the heck are these things? Perhaps they just named them poorly becaus the word that pops to my mind is 'manouver'. And why on earth does a backstab do more damage and goes through blocks more easily than a normal attack? Alright perhaps it's a "surprise" attack so the defender might not expect it and thus the higher probability of actually connecting with the hit. But if it turns the game into a backsweep / backstab rollercoaster... that's a game I'm not going to get into.

Another thing is Duel vs. FFA / CTF, these are two (possibly three) entire different kind of beasts when you consider game design. Even in real life (and this *is* a subject I know somethign about) rules of engagement for duels and mass battles were entirely different. 1.03 is great with duels, although no force duels would probably be better with out the throw ability as there aren't any real ways to counter it, except to throw your own saber.

How ever in FFA games I find that people are usually fighting in a big ball as almost every level has this one large open space which attracts people (rightly so, I can't understand what Raven were thinking of when they made that Raven labs level). I'm not claiming to be a great player but usually I most points I gather in such game are due wading in, swinging around wildly and usually hitting opponent who is already nearly dead due to someone else hitting him first. Trying to pursuit a specific enemy in FFA seems to be hopeless because there's so much health / shields around that with the blocking going on it's very easy to reatreat. Especially on servers with more ppl somebody else will usually kill your opponent from behind when you're chasing / fighting him.

Oh, and btw. I'm not playing to win so usually I don't use guns or any special moves except accidental backsweeps and occasional light / medium / heavy 'special move' when the oppoturnity calls for it.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 12:25 PM
Remember me?

Err... Were you under this name in-game? doesn't ring a bell I'm afraid...

You indicated what is wrong quite clearly, but how do you suggest it should be fixed in the next patch?

I'm glad you asked! Firstly the backstabs should indeed be lowered in damage, in my opinion. It would be hard to make them less desirable by other means, such as making the backstabber more prone to attack.

Secondly the two new "Force Weaknesses," Drain and Heal. I believe that Drain was disempowered too far in the right direction, so a small decrease from the original power would be enough of a change from 1.02. Heal on the other hand was likewise too far disempowered. Instead of nerfing the amount you heal, I believe Raven should restore the amounts in 1.04, and instead make the healing occur over time, and also include the "meditative stance" of Heal lv. 1 in Single player, as it would be an excellent deterrent for heal-happy-madmen to have to sit still with their sabre off for several seconds while healing.

Thirdly Absorb, as a lightsider it's tough for me to say this, but *gulp* I think the noise it makes should be audible over a wider radius, so that Darksiders at least have a chance to know there's an absorber appearing somewhere nearby.

Fourthly if grip-users are to be slowed to a walk, the damage the grip does should be increased. But really, I think a reversion is in order for this one, I don't understand why they slowed grippers down at all. It was never very powerful in the first place...

Fifth, blocking. The blocking radius is so wide that in FFA one simply has no incentive to waste time sabre fighting with someone in FFA when you could be backing into a group while backstabbing. To avoid cheapness, the allure of the cheap tactics must be removed, so I would therefore prefer that blocking be reverted to 1.02 methods in FFA, CTF, CTY and Team FFA, and I will be lobbying for precisely that.

There we have it, anyhoo.

Trying to pursuit a specific enemy in FFA seems to be hopeless because there's so much health / shields around that with the blocking going on it's very easy to reatreat. Especially on servers with more ppl somebody else will usually kill your opponent from behind when you're chasing / fighting him.

In a post full of excellent points, this is perhaps the best. The pace of FFA is, and should be fast. Since the only fast moves are now cheap moves, we'll be seeing a lot of them. The answer is not just to nerf the fastest moves, as this would slow the game to a positive crawl, where even if your sabre runs true at an opponent, they'll block it, and get killed by someone else from behind. 1.02 definitely had superior FFA, and I'll be lobbying for the restoration of the fast and furious feeling.

Etz
05-10-2002, 12:35 PM
I think we need to keep this thread going as there has been lot of usefull discussion going on here. Below is what I replied to another thread, I decided to add it here because I'd like to know what Spider Al has to say about it. Most of it is not going to happen but let's see what we can think up.

I'm going to add my stick to the pile

Lightsabers by their very definition are lethal weapons, if you get cut with one, something will most likely drop off. I can see the reasoning behind light, medium and heavy stances, but lets face it. Having to slash someone multiple times with a weapon that can cut through steel isn't exactly realistic, but then games rarely are.

Somebody (quite few somebodies actually) mentioned that the arch with blocking should be smaller, I whole heartetly agree. Should Raven change this it would be very good indeed. Also although I mentioned above that lightsaber damage isn't very realistic at the moment I also understand that one shot kills aren't that fun either. How ever I think that you should be able to kill a person with 3-4 hits max. Now with shields added it can really take forever to bring a guy down. I don't remember seeing any personal shields in the movies, do you? Originally in Darkforces shields were simply a cool way of replacing armor that was used in games like Doom at that time. How ever now I feel it's more like a relic from that past age where three dimensional enviroments were only dreamt of and if I could make the choice, I would take them off alltogether.

Now most of you will probably flame me for saying that, and of course it will never happen so save your breath. But think about it, that would change the game quite a bit and although guns might be overpowered the lightsaber combat in FFA games and similar would become a lot more interesting. More tweaking in stance damages and blocking would be needed of course to balance things out.

Perhaps it would be better if actual armor rating would replace shields. It would work out exactly as now, except that lightsabers would pass it by as falling damage and kicking does now. People have said that double clicking jump makes kicking harder, it does. But it's not funny to see somebody to use only kicks. And why not? When you kick you'll by pass all defenses and shields. Five hits and the person is dead unless he gets medkit or has heal. Kicking is almost more effective than using your saber because while you kick you can still use block (except when you're upside down in the air). Using armor instead of shields would have the additional benefit to make kick more of a tool than a weapon. You could still kick someone over but armor would take the worst damage off.

That's the kind of stuff I would like to see implemented. And maybe I will, with the ability to create mods perhaps enough people would like to see that happen to make it possible. Do you?

There, I guess I could have posted link directly to the thread, but you've probably already read it.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 12:57 PM
Somebody (quite few somebodies actually) mentioned that the arch with blocking should be smaller, I whole heartetly agree. Should Raven change this it would be very good indeed. Also although I mentioned above that lightsaber damage isn't very realistic at the moment I also understand that one shot kills aren't that fun either. How ever I think that you should be able to kill a person with 3-4 hits max.

These are all very good points. Blocking is... Well, it's slowed FFA down. Right down. And to win intentionally, it's almost a given that you'll have to use the backswing.

I never really saw the point of the fast stance as it was pre-patch, the damage it did was abysmal. Now, I don't have a problem with it, but because of blocking, I can swing at someone with heavy stance (and hit them, in the side) and they'll somehow block it, and rail off a bunch of light stance spins at me. Of course I avoid them, but the blocking kinda ruins the Strong stance's normal strikes. So now that the Strong stance is redundant, one is forced to use the backswing, which is universally accepted as being cheap.

Note, NF duels are fine with this patch IMO, I don't have a problem with duels at all. I'm talking about FFA here.

The armour idea is an interesting one, workable, but I'd have to give it some thought before commenting... Shield belts have been a part of the DF series from day one... ;)

Etz
05-10-2002, 01:18 PM
Yeah shield belts have always been the trademark of the series among other things. In the original Dark Forces it just didn't matter as no one used lightsabers. Basically it was the same thing as armors in other games, just with a different name. They sticked with it in Dark Forces II and now it's here.

As for how to implement a personal forcefield? I'd rather see it as bonus item that for a given time (30 sec as other items I'd guess, until the battery runs out :)) would either absorb percentile amount of damage from energy weapons or make the user immune to them complitely.

This would add a twist in FFA and CTF, you would actually have to use another weapon or use force to kill or avoid the person with the shield belt. I honestly believe that the armor idea would work better than the current one. But even if Raven would miracolously come to the same conclusion they would never change it, it's too late for that. Besides it's only my opinion and that doesn't really make it true. We'd would need to make a mod just to test it. That might be easy though, just make lightsabers to ignore shields for starters and see how that would affect the game. Probably very simple to implement.

As for heavy stance being ruined, I'm not the best person to talk about that as I rarely use it except as a bait to get the other person attack me. The way I see it you really need skill to use red stance now. First hit is almost always blocked, but the person you hit is also staggered for a second or two so with 2 and 3 hit combos you should be able to land some solid hits as well. Of course with the target moving around this would be no easy job.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 02:02 PM
As for heavy stance being ruined, I'm not the best person to talk about that as I rarely use it except as a bait to get the other person attack me.

Absolutely, an excellent tactic... however, in FFA nobody has time to bait other people, it's all a big mishmosh. Someone comes in and backswings, end of game. This is unacceptable, and without the backswing, it would all just slow down. I'll be lobbying for removal of the new parries/knockaways in a toggleable 1.021/1.03 version style arrangement in the next patch.

Aiee
05-10-2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL

I never really saw the point of the fast stance as it was pre-patch, the damage it did was abysmal. Now, I don't have a problem with it, but because of blocking, I can swing at someone with heavy stance (and hit them, in the side) and they'll somehow block it, and rail off a bunch of light stance spins at me. Of course I avoid them, but the blocking kinda ruins the Strong stance's normal strikes. So now that the Strong stance is redundant, one is forced to use the backswing, which is universally accepted as being cheap.

I beg to differ. Strong style did receive an upgrade in the form of chainable attacks. While it takes a little more timing, it is very easy to chain up to 3 attacks after one another, and the two that follow the first execute at about the same speed as a medium style slash. Furthermore, the red stance attacks do an excellent job of shattering defenses, leaving players open for a while after the initial slash for your two follow-ups. A well-timed 3-hit combo can, in fact, kill a player who is at full health.


Somebody (quite few somebodies actually) mentioned that the arch with blocking should be smaller, I whole heartetly agree. Should Raven change this it would be very good indeed. Also although I mentioned above that lightsaber damage isn't very realistic at the moment I also understand that one shot kills aren't that fun either. How ever I think that you should be able to kill a person with 3-4 hits max.


An alternative, which I also mentioned in another thread would be to keep the arc of blocking the same (roughly +/- 90 degrees from center, allowing players to block attacks from the side), but instead reward players for their accuracy in blocking. that is, make the percentage of attacks blocked inversely proportional to the angle they hit relative to the center of the player. that is to say, if someone attacked a player and their saber hit right in front of the player (at a 0 degree angle from center), 100% of their slashes would be blocked, unless the attacked player had left an opening, either by having his/her saber deflected, or by being in the middle of executing an attack. If someone attacks a player, and their saber hits them at an angle of say, 45 degrees, 55% of all attacks would be blocked. this would be halfway between right in front of a player and directly to the side, and a skilled swordsman (which a Jedi would have to be to use a lightsaber in the first place) could reasonably parry or block a large amount of attacks, even at this angle. If a player is hit directly on his/her side, only 10% of all attacks would be blocked (IE: almost none), reflecting that any blocks here would be due to sheer luck. While this may sound like a lot of blocking, and a very forgiving system initially, it is important to remember that nearly no saber attacks hit dead on center as it is, and I beleive that on a player who doesn't keep turning to face his player, roughly 1/3rd of all attacks would connect. At this rate, a few light swings to soften up, followed by a medium and a heavy would bring most players down. However, a skilled player could technically keep blocking indefinately.

Another thing that would be nice to see is blocking related to a players movement. I would suggest that in additional to said radius-related blocking, the players movement at the moment of attack would have an effect on the chance to block. If we say a player has 100% chance of blocking (I'm assuming a head-on attack here) while standing still, movement penalties could be induced that would reduce this to 90% if he was walking forwards or diagonally forwards. 85% if he was walking sideways or backwards, 80% if he was running forwards or diagonally forwards, 75% if he was running sideways (strafing) and 70% if he was running backwards. The logic behind this being that a person running sideways or backwards will need to concentrate on the placement of his/her legs, and some of the concentration needed to maintain an effective defense would be transferred to the legs. The lowered defense rating when moving backwards, along with the lowered defense when hit on the side or back would help discourage players from running backwards when fighting. Similairely, the lowered defense when running would perhaps encourage people to switch to walking in confined areas to increase their chance of blocking, adding another layer of thought to the current fighting model.

If the above is too complex, another way to discourage people running around backwards would be to bring in a feature from another game, the Baldur's Gate series: The backstab multiplier. The concept is remarkably simple, in the Baldurs Gate series, if you manage to sneak up on someone (using the hide in shadows feature) and attack their exposed back area, your attack will do vastly more damage. If a swift strike to the back in medium stance suddenly does double or triple damage, I'm sure you'll see far less people willing to risk running around backwards.

Regarding heal and drain, I would suggest that drain would be slowed down. Slowed down in the way that it would take less mana to use, but it would also sap the opponents mana and regenerate health at a slower rate. Also, if a player uses absorb, being drained would add mana to their force meter at a slower rate.

For heal, I would suggest that heal at level 3 would still take 50% of your force meter, but also heal 50hp. the catch being that rather than healing a player instantly, the health would regenerate over a short period of time, similairely to single-player. During this time, a player would have to stand completely still. If a player begins to run, healing would be interrupted, and the excess mana would be wasted. This would encourage players to heal between fights, rather than run around and hit heal repeatedly.

I do not use grip myself, by my impression of it is that it was fine in 1.02. I have force push bound to mouse3, and people rarely manage to cause much damage before I push them away. Why it was reduced in power is beyond me.

I like absorb as it is now. Personally, I don't beleive it should make any sound or have any visual effect while inactive, but instead make a loud sound and flash as soon as it absorbs anything. This worked fine in the original Jedi Knight (absorb had a very distinctive sound), and anyone with but a little sense in their heads would stop gripping/draining/lightening (I know that's not a word, but bear with me) as soon as they see it. To balance it out, my suggestion is to make drain sap less mana for attacks that cannot be aoirted, such as push and pull.

Regarding the weapons, the ammo costs were increased because of people spamming the alt repeater and flechette randomly, hoping to score a few quick kills. the problem the increased ammo consumption created was that there isn't enough ammo to go around anymore. My suggestion for solving this problem would be to increase the amount of ammo gained from an ammonition pickup. This would leave ammo for everyone to use, but still penalize people who wish to spam the alt fire. Someone with a halfway decent aim would still get 12 alt shots with the repeater rifle at full ammo (which would be easier to get if ammonition in pickups was increased), which should be enough to stop a retreating flag carrier.

Finally, while this has been suggested before, I would like to add some further weight to the argument of reducing the speed of running backwards. In CTF, part of the argument of needing to use secondary fire is that a backpedalling carrier in light stance with absorb can deflect everything else back at the pursuers. If you reduce the speed at which a player runs backwards, a flagrunner will be forced to either:
A) running backwards (you could add a further penalty to force speed when running backwards, but that's just a random thought-fart) and having the chasers catching up with him and using their sabers or primary-fire flechette at a range where he can't push.
Or B) Running forwards at full speed, leaving his back exposed to primry fire shots from the repeater, crossbow or pretty much any other weapon. In this case, of course, he will have to rely on his skill at dodging, as well as covering fire from his teammates to survive.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 02:52 PM
I beg to differ. Strong style did receive an upgrade

Any upgrade it may or may not have received is vastly outweighed by its inferiority to mindless spinning in a group, and/or strong backswing in a group. Pre-patch you could hit someone twice with the strong style normally, and kill them. This meant that you had options to kill people quickly other than shoving them down and backswinging them. All the speed and pace of FFA is gone, unless one behaves cheaply. No fun at all.

Another thing that would be nice to see is blocking related to a players movement. I would suggest that in additional to said radius-related blocking, the players movement at the moment of attack would have an effect on the

etc. etc. In my opinion it was overly contrived thinking like this that has left FFA and CTF players in the position they're in right now. Pre-patch, if you got hit, you got hit. It was your fault for not dodging. Now, even if someone's skilled enough to hit you, you may block it. That does not reward skill, it rewards a lack of skill.

And before anyone says it no, I have no problem winning sabre duels post-patch, and I don't even have to use the backswing. The point stands, that automatic blocking of this radius and type is merely a shield that those who cannot dodge, fall back on.

I do not use grip myself, by my impression of it is that it was fine in 1.02. I have force push bound to mouse3, and people rarely manage to cause much damage before I push them away. Why it was reduced in power is beyond me.

Absolutely true and apt, I too have no idea why they nerfed grip to this extent. Now, darksiders have no weapons with which to fight me. This is saddening, as all the challenge of defeating darksiders is now gone.

I also agree that running backwards should mean a further reduction in speed.

Aiee
05-10-2002, 03:20 PM
And before anyone says it no, I have no problem winning sabre duels post-patch, and I don't even have to use the backswing. The point stands, that automatic blocking of this radius and type is merely a shield that those who cannot dodge, fall back on.


While you have a valid point in that, I would like to point out that some of us do not like the idea of constantly hitting roll. I come from a background of playing JK2 where you did, in fact, move out of the way rather than block. What I found there, and in pre-patch JKO was that most of the time, opponents were running around, fighting a fight where there were constantly a gap of 10-20 feet or more between them. In my opinion, sabers are melee weapons. Melee weapons are weapons in which you have to get in close to a player to do damage. So it makes sense that to damage a player, you would have to be close to them for an extended period of time, which is what blocking requires of you. You'll find that if you do a diagonal swing at an opponent, your saber will often hit them in a 30-45 degree angle. If they were running around at the time of the collision, the system I suggested would leave them with roughly a 50% chance of blocking an attack - a vast reduction of the current rate of 80-85%.

What I am trying to say is that some people - me included - like the idea of more blocks, deflections and parrys. They make duelling - a game mode which previously consisted of running away from your opponent 80% of the time so you would't be struck by the tip of a saber you couldn't block with your own, even if you saw it coming a mile away. I understand that the changes have made FFA slower (although I find the idea that a player should be expected to dodge all attacks made from 4 or 5 opponents mplaced all around them a little silly), so I suggested a way that would hopefully allow us to experience the best of both camps. In FFA, you will be assaulted from all sides, and while the arc percentage and movement percentages may help you block attacks from one specific opponent, they will be far less efficient in fights against two or more, hopefully restoring some of the quick kills FFA players prefer.

1.02 was well-liked by CTF-players and FFA-players to a large extent, but many duellists complained because many of the moves that gave speed to CTF and FFA were being abused and made duelling less fun. 1.03 has changed many of these, offering a very good feel to dueling, at the expense of those who like to play FFA and CTF. What I'm trying to do is suggest changes that will please all 3 camps; Duellists, FFA and CTF players alike. Thus, making changes that increase the longevity of battles only if you focus your efforts on a single player seems to be the logical solution.

If you have any suggestions that will restore the pace to FFA and CTF, while still allowing me to have a good, long duel with an opponent where I use timing, blocks and deflections to trick my opponent into leaving himself open so I can move in for a finishing kill, I would love to hear them. Just please bear in mind that for every player who desires an intense 30 seconds where he through a few rolls and a well-timed sweep slays 3 opponents, there's another person whi likes 2 minutes of staying close to his opponent, trying to get an opening, and both players opinions are equally important - they paid the same for the game after all.

Nill the Mean
05-10-2002, 04:39 PM
I agree with Spider Al that players now seem to bundle into a ball on one part of the map. I have seen it happen too often for it not to be true.

Two people fight.
A third arrives, starts fighting.
Fourth person arrives, thinks: "Lots of people here!" and starts fighting.
Since no-one is dying as quiclky anymore, player five, six, seven, etc... turn up and pile up with the rest. Since everyone is in one spot, why bother going somewhere else? This game is about combat, not avoiding it.

Then some "backslash whore" turns up and kills of the people who weren't paying enough attention.

I like Aiee's idea to reduce the chance of blocking the further away the attack is from the front of the player. Sounds good. It would put more point in trying to outmaneuvre your opponent again. Footwork is just as important in a fight as blocking afterall.
Stuff directly in front would have a 100% chance of getting blocked, stuff further away than 90 degrees from your front should NEVER be blocked (I'll get back to this).

I think that on top of that, they need to remove a lot of the saber clashing at the beginning/end of the attack animations but leave it the same in the middle of the swing. This would make counterattacking more important and would reward timing. The blocking system that we are thinking about would prevent "jousting matches". blocking then counterattacking would be really worth it.

I also say that the damage should be upped for all styles. I think having to hit him 3-6 times should be enough. I don't know exactly what the deal is with medium now... I can't seem to get anything right with it. If I swich to light I get a lot more hits that seem to do more damage than medium would. This is undoubtedly not the case, but that is what it feels like sometimes.

Finally, I don't agree that they should up the damage you get from being hit in the back. Imagine how crappy this would be in FFA if someone shoots you in the back with a rocket/repeater/flechette... SPLAT!
To counter the backstab they should just make it obviously less effective than attacking in front of you. I also have noticed that some of my attacks that I make at someones back now also get blocked. I'm not blind, I know what I saw... I attacked him in the back and my saber bounced back and I didn't hear a pain noise from either of us. Happened to me at least 15 times already. This should NEVER happen.

I would also like a better solution for people who push, knock you over, then push again to send you over an edge. You can stand up slowly and this prevents you from being pushed again, but sometimes you just flip up again without touching anything. I suggest they let you get up faster the more you click the jump button. If you would press it A LOT you could avoid being hacked whilst lying down more easily. Also, sometimes when I still have force to counter and am standing still, I still get pushed, why? Stick in the cool counter animation from SP.

On the topic of alternative animations, they stuck in the SP animation for the person being gripped. Looks very cool. Now I think they should put in the normal walking animation for the gripper, not the slow run you have now. I think you should be able to do more damage faster, move slightly faster, but be not be able to do it for as long as you can now.

Remove the pain sound for anything below 10hp damage. This way you would know if you just glanced him or actually hit him.

Add the fists you can get by playing about in the console in SP.

If the changes we are dicussing now were implemented into 1.04, we would get a nice balance between what made both 1.02 and 1.03 so great without losing out on too much of either.
I think...

Aiee
05-10-2002, 04:46 PM
Finally, I don't agree that they should up the damage you get from being hit in the back. Imagine how crappy this would be in FFA if someone shoots you in the back with a rocket/repeater/flechette... SPLAT!


To clarify my remark, I only meant for the added damage to the back to occur if you hit someone with a lightsaber. It was, again, to discourage overuse of backstab and place empahsis on getting behind your opponent and placing your saber smack in the middle of his spine. I guess I could've worded that a little better.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 06:17 PM
If you have any suggestions that will restore the pace to FFA and CTF, while still allowing me to have a good, long duel with an opponent where I use timing, blocks and deflections to trick my opponent into leaving himself open so I can move in for a finishing kill, I would love to hear them.

I'm glad you asked. I'd like at least toggleable SP/1.03 style combat for server administrators in the next patch. This would mean that FFA and CTF server admins could lower ammo cost for CTF, and up the speed of FFA, at will. Duel admins could choose whether to make their servers SP style or not.

I'll be lobbying for just that.

Orangina_Rouge
05-10-2002, 06:22 PM
LOL ...if even u The infamous cheap bastard feel lame .....there is no hope for this game ;)

LooNBB
05-10-2002, 06:24 PM
WOW! A "I don't like the Patch" thread with maturity and real discussion...

While I do like the patch quite a bit (being a NF dueler) I can agree with most of the points here, and completely understand Spider's original intent. I also tend to abuse things that i know will get me the kill.

It really does amaze me that somehow the absolute best tactical position in a saber fight (being directly behind an opponent) has been made into an absolute No No due to the backstab moves.

It would make sense to me if the move was reversed... 1 hit kill if the attacker is behind the attackee... but the other way around?

While I am chop-chop-choping at some guy he magically does a super spin and I am out for the count? It doesn't fly for me.

Why wouldn't you spam it? If it works use it! The developers in their quest to make a great game should look to make a balanced game that is fun and exciting and doesn't involve some inane exploits.

Great posts

Aiee
05-10-2002, 06:28 PM
I, for one, could live with that. One thing I would stress, however, is that a clearly visible icon should be added that shows wether a server is using 1.02 or 1.03 style in the server browser. Currently, the community seems to be divided into two camps, and I suspect a player would be annoyed if he enteret a server, only to find that blocking ws the opposite of what he expected.

However, I would advise caution in implementing a feature such as this. It is important to remember that we are, indeed a community, and having two vastly different approaches to saber fighting could possibly divide the community in two, with name-calling, flaming aplenty of people who use another style than yourself and further difficulties in patching and fixing two different game experiences to follow.

On the topic of backstabs, I beleive the original reason they were made unblockable instant-kills were because they were intended as a surprise maneuvre. I mean, if an opponent was not prepared at all, a stab in the stomach would be sure to kill. Unfortunately, they didn't anticipate that players would run around backwards, as if trying to fart the dodging players to death and totally removing the surprise on the backstab.

Today, however, I did a move and experienced another that really did add surprise to the backstab move and justified the instant kills (because the element of surprise were there, and the saber did in fact go withy through the other guy, without the stabber turning to aim (Further clarification: I mean that the instant kills were justified in these two specific cases, not in general)).

The one I pulled off hapened while I was running at my opponent in the light stance and he was running at me. When we were getting close to each other, he hit roll and rolled past me. I hit backstab, and he got the saber placed right into his spine, because he got up right behind me.

The one that happened to me saw my opponent jumping over my head in a sommersault. As soon as he landed, he pulled the backstab maneuvre, and hit me in the stomach as I turned to face him. Again, this capitalized on the backwards stab as a surprise maneuvre, and his win of the duel was well-deserved in my eyes.

Another possible fix to the backwards-stab would be to keep the unblockable aspect of it (like in DFA) but tone the damage down slightly (again like in DFA) and remove the ability to turn during the move (amazingly again like DFA). Finally, changing the animation so all styles would use the light stance backstab. This would still make it a deadly move if you spin around and perform it at the right time, but it also leaves your front and sides wide open to a counterattack, and requires you to aim properly when using it.

Nill the Mean
05-10-2002, 07:36 PM
Getting rid of the ability to turn whilst doing a backstab would be good. It would require more "skill" to pull it off like that. way. I don't think they should tone the damage down that much though. You don't want it to be nerfed so it is totally usesless. With the other things I sugegsted it would be much more rewarding to attack things in front of you thus making it less tempting to backslash every five seconds. Afterall, why backstab when you are getting more kills fighting "normally"?
I find it strange that no-one responded to my ideas of toning down saber clashing at the beginning and end of attack animations. I thought this was a good idea myself.
And we should all ask for the hit sounds to be changed the way I said earlier, I bet this would be a great way of telling if you hit him or not.
In respect to having serverside options for 1.02 or 1.03 for certain game types...
I think that would be cool, however I would rather that Raven concentrate their efforts on 1.04 to make it better than 1.02 & 1.03 instead of them bringing back the old things.
Sounds rationable, no?

LooNBB
05-10-2002, 07:41 PM
Nill... we didn't respond because we were dumfounded by the brilliance you displayed

Nill the Mean
05-10-2002, 07:51 PM
Originally posted by LooNBB
Nill... we didn't respond because we were dumfounded by the brilliance you displayed

Hahahaha... why thank you.

:p

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 08:28 PM
I also tend to abuse things that i know will get me the kill.

The temptation is horrible, and I'd rather it wasn't available to me at all. I played a game tonight, fully intending to analyse my kills-per-minute when I wasn't using the backstab at all... But I folded when someone called "Maybe2stoned" did it to me. I went on a rampage. Waahhhh.

Getting rid of the ability to turn whilst doing a backstab would be good.

Hmm, yes, but turning doesn't make much difference to the all-round effect of the Strong style backswing. It's hellish. I can't really see any way of making it less of a one-hit-kill unless it's either slower, (much slower, which would defeat the point of it) or toned down in damage.

In respect to having serverside options for 1.02 or 1.03 for certain game types... I think that would be cool, however I would rather that Raven concentrate their efforts on 1.04 to make it better than 1.02 & 1.03 instead of them bringing back the old things. Sounds rationable, no?

Well, let me put it this way... as a veteran FFA player (as veteran as one can be in a game that was released little more than a month ago) I'd say there was only one thing that needed to be changed in FFA: The DFA. My ideal patch for FFA would be 1.02 with only the DFA nerf added. For CTF, the same. This patch is wonderful for duelling, so for v.1.04 I'd like to see these different needs reflected for the different styles of play. However, this may be a tall order for Raven. Implementing different rules for Multiplayer and Single player is one thing... but different rulesets for six different modes of play? A lot of work. It may actually be easier for them to implement a 1.03/1.02 toggle... so that's what my requests are based on. I'd LOVE to see different rulesets for all the different modes in 1.04, but I think that may be like asking Santa for a small country. I could be wrong there though.

With the other things I sugegsted it would be much more rewarding to attack things in front of you thus making it less tempting to backslash every five seconds. Afterall, why backstab when you are getting more kills fighting "normally"?

Precise and to the point Nill. This is the crux of the matter... in 1.02 you didn't see backstabbing because ALL blows cut through blocks. People backstab now, because it's simply the most effective blow. In 1.02 I got plenty of kills with normal forward strong strikes. So I didn't need to backstab.

I find it strange that no-one responded to my ideas of toning down saber clashing at the beginning and end of attack animations. I thought this was a good idea myself.

It is a good idea, and would undoubtedly make the sabre combat feel more fluent... but I for one would like a vastly lower blocking radius in FFA. Vastly.

And we should all ask for the hit sounds to be changed the way I said earlier, I bet this would be a great way of telling if you hit him or not.

True, that should definitely go on the list.

I, for one, could live with that. One thing I would stress, however, is that a clearly visible icon should be added that shows wether a server is using 1.02 or 1.03 style in the server browser.

Oh definitely. It wouldn't be much use to anyone if you couldn't tell what version of server you were joining on the ingame browser. All seeing eye does have such an icon I believe, though I have never had occasion to use it.

Another possible fix to the backwards-stab would be to keep the unblockable aspect of it (like in DFA) but tone the damage down slightly (again like in DFA) and remove the ability to turn during the move (amazingly again like DFA). Finally, changing the animation so all styles would use the light stance backstab. This would still make it a deadly move if you spin around and perform it at the right time, but it also leaves your front and sides wide open to a counterattack, and requires you to aim properly when using it.

I agree with this completely. I hadn't thought of making all styles use the light stance backstab, but now that you mention it it would be excellent. I much prefer the look if the thing, personally, and it would mean that the backstab could only be used on one... POSSIBLY two people at any one time, making it a non-mop-maneuver.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 08:53 PM
For the fiftieth post in this thread, I would like to request to the moderators that this thread, and all other threads discussing the patch in a constructive manner, be moved to the game feedback forum where we can all work out exactly what we want from 1.04. Would that I could do it myself.

Nill the Mean
05-10-2002, 09:03 PM
Wow, I'm amazed at how good this thread is. No whining/complaining. Just good debate. Seriously, I think we can all pat ourselves on the back. We are all starting to agree on what should be done, an obvious sign that we are getting somewhere.
It is a good idea, and would undoubtedly make the sabre combat feel more fluent... but I for one would like a vastly lower blocking radius in FFA. Vastly.
How vast exactly? I don't think they should tone it down as far as 1.02. The blocking now has many more features which could be fine-tuned and it would be a shame not to implement them. I'm thinking 1.03 style blocking with the fluent combat of 1.02.
In order to make gunning more appealing, I think you should be able to do the acrobatic moves (kick/flip/wallwalk/roll) whilst holding a gun. Maybe not roll because you already have the advantage of ranged attack with a gun. The amount of ammo required should go down a bit again.
And for nostalgia, I must once again cry out for the fists.

I thought of something especially sweet just now... more of a mod thing because it would require quite some work probably... why not have those dodge animations for Seeing pop up when using Speed in a saber duel. Instead of a blocking animation you dodge Matrix style. Or have those animations sped up for dodging repeater/E-11 bolts, like the agent in the Matrix.
OK, maybe I'm dreaming now but it sounds cool...

TheDarkSide
05-10-2002, 09:20 PM
This thread is a beautiful beautiful thing. These kind of threads are what Raven will respond to. I only wish all the patch feedback threads were like this *sigh*

I don't have much to add to the discussion as the points discussed here are pretty good and complete.

I have realized over the course of the past few days why I love this patch so....it's because it caters primarily to duelers, and that's what I primarily do. I play occasional games of FFA and play more CTF than TFFA, so I barely notice the slower pace that this patch gives to the game. I can definitely see now that the changes which are so great for dueling can be detrimental to FFA.

As to why I prefer dueling, I can't really say. I like FFA when it's a gang of guys I know (i'm talking like LAN FFA), but jumping on a random server and beating a bunch of people I know absolutely nothing about nor will likely ever see again after I log off....well, that holds absolutely zero interest to me. As a young'un I wrestled in junior high and high school, and played racquetball and tennis recreationally, and while I love playing basketball, one on one b-ball is my favorite. I like the 1 v1 environment in general, skill vs skill, no one to support you or do the dirty work for you to mop up on.

Ack, I've been rambling. Here's my small addition to the patch feedback, do whatever you'd need to do to FFA and CTF to get people happy with the game again, but leave the dueling exactly as it is. It is perfect. If that involves a different set of mechanics for one vs the other, I think I could live with that.

TDS

IronJedi Kaga
05-10-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Zek, a fight against someone like me (at least in FF which I frequent) will ALWAYS be short. One hit kill. One hit, and you're dead. I don't want to play like that, I doubt anyone does... But it's the way things are. All the patch has done is decreased Darksiders' defences against my one-hit-kills, and made headless-chicken-style the order of the day.

The one thing that I feel people dont understand is by that there very nature ff games are never about sabers. In 1.02 it was about drain, and heal. Now ff sabers are about push/pull as a lead in to backstab. IMO the only way to get a good saber game is to go nf.

As for the opening post about ffa, er if I see someone backing up as you, I'd just shoot. Unless you mean a sabers only ffa which is another matter, but if there are guns invovled killing people who run around backwards is easy.

SpaceMonkey1315
05-10-2002, 10:23 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Those that know my name know that I am one of those evil fewls who gets his name at the top of the scoreboard as much as humanly possible. Yes, I DFA'ed. A lot. Yes, I pushed people over and shot them. Yes, I sniped, repeater-hogged, shot people fighting in groups...

But I did all these things with honour. I mean, I always gave my opponents a chance. I let them pull their sabre before knocking them off the cliffs... I let them pick up that rocket launcher before running for the compactor activation console and crushing them. I always fought sabre battles for a minute or two before finishing them off with a DFA.

With this new patch, I was hoping that I wouldn't have to DFA to win the match. I was hoping that I wouldn't have to slam absorb up constantly during duels to avoid drainers... In fact, I was hoping for balance.

But something strange has happened... Two days playing the patch, and I, even I suddenly feel cheap and nasty, and dishonourable. It's the backstabs you see. The backstabs can kill in one strike. They cut through blocks and shields like butter... And I can't stop using them. They work well. They do the job, and fast. But tonight, I was on a server and saw one man... who might as well have been me, for I have been doing the same thing... Strong style backstab. Over and over. He was walking around backwards... And I saw him work, and he racked up kills, because yes, he was skilled at using the backstabs... and I thought "how cheap." And then it hit me, that man... was me.

I've never felt cheap before. The same technique, over and over... That's what I have to use to win, because it's the fastest, most effective and most unblockable technique there is. If I were to sabre fight in other ways, I would be spending precious time on one person that I could be spending on grabbing ammo and blasting the rest of the people. And you'd better believe there's another guy on the server that will use that one technique over and over even if you're not willing to use it yourself. And he will win. On sabres only servers, what else can you do? And now on guns servers, with ammo depleted, what else can you use? I run out of ammo, I backstab. I've played for about ten hours since the patch was released, and it's gotten more and more repetitive and less and less interesting. I've suddenly realised that the one word someone used to describe the game post-patch, was absolutely apt. JO is now neutered.

I'm primarily a lightsider. When I realised how cheap the patch had made FFA winning, I played a match as a darksider to see what changes had affected them. I was astonished. Before the patch, a good darksider could challenge me. Now, what use is drain against lightsiders like me? No use at all. It takes a tiny amount of mana away even if I'm slow at activating absorb.

Before the patch, a fast gripper might have had a chance to grab me and throw me over the side of a cliff before I activated absorb. Now, no chance at all. Lightning? I've been killed by lightning a grand total of ten times since the game was released... Even if it were beefed up, what good does it do a darksider against a lightsider? Or against a darksider with a gun?

As for the light side, I don't waste my mana on heal now. It's no use in a duel match at all. It was never very useful in FFA.

And as for team games, at first I thought it might be a minor shift in power... But it seems I was wrong, having played some more matches tonight. CTF for example... Absorb has neutered defenders. An experienced attacker runs in with speed and absorb... he's quite likely to dodge all gunshots, and if he grabs the flag and legs it, who's going to stop him? push won't affect him, it'll merely feed him. Any sabre attacks on the way in or out will be blocked... It's a nightmare.

So let's recap: The patch has reduced me, an experienced duellist and FFAer to using a single, boring technique, over and over again so often, that it EVEN BORES ME.

It's annoyed experienced CTFers because of the neutering of gun-use.

It's made the Dark Side a pale shadow when compared to the sun-like glory of the light side, and I AM a lightsider, so it's hard for me to admit that.

People have always accused me of using the same technique a lot, because I've always done what works, what's necessary to win. But now, I'm starting to agree with them, which is terrifying.

The patch has made winning boring, in my opinion. I didn't think it was possible, but tonight, I'm bored of winning FF FFAs. I'm bored of defeating foes in CTF. I'm bored of duels which end when someone's backstab finally connects.

And I'm tired of running backwards. Maybe I should paint eyes onto Kyle's backside.

What I think should be changed:

The DFA's problem wasn't its power, it was the ability to turn, and the ludicrously long sideways and forward range of the attack. All that needed to be changed was the turning, and the attack range.

Too much blocking means slow sabre fights, so slow that I just give up and shoot the person or shove them over the edge, rather than fighting them. That's not the way things should be, surely? IMO the blocking percentages are way off base. In 1 on 1 duels sure, block all you want, because there's nothing else to do but sabre fight... but in FFA or team games, who wants to stand around slowly nicking away at one person's health?

The backstabs are ludicrously powerful. Another one-hit-kill has replaced the DFA, and one wonders... what was the point?

Drain has been stripped of any power at all. Too far in the right direction, methinks. It's just not a danger to anyone anymore.

Heal... what exactly is the point of this? Three points sunk into one power and what do you get? A single health pack's worth for half your stock of mana. Surely ALL the powers should be desirable and useful, or why have them at all?

Spider's verdict:

1.03 favours Lightsiders like me, disadvantages Darksiders, removes any need to duel with the sabre, (backstab instead) and (So WD_Rage and others say,) makes a mockery of CTF.

It also introduces two fun-filled concepts:

Running backwards while bent forwards so that you can see who's behind you, so that you look utterly and completely ludicrous, and miss all the scenery except the floor textures. Let the buttocks show ye the way forward, young Padawan.

And the second, the concept of utterly useless Force Powers. Heal and Drain now sit in a world of their own as the most completely feeble "powers" ever to possess the name. I hereby dub Heal and Drain "Force Weaknesses" rather than "Force Powers."

Let me finally make clear, I haven't lost a FF FFA, or a FF duel, since I downloaded the patch. This is not a rant born from the frustration of a loser, but instead the frustration of a winner.

I'm off to play 1.02. Yes, I'll have to put up with DFAers and drain-happy madmen, but in my considered opinion, it's preferable.

well, it looks like someone is kinda honerable

IronJedi Kaga
05-10-2002, 10:34 PM
Also on a side note, please stop blaming the game for deaths caused by being unaware. If you are invovled in a duel and dont notice someone spamming an overpowered move and get mowed down, you only have yourself to blame. Stay aware of your surroudings and surprises like that shouldn't happen. Its probably the nubmer 1 reason why someone using a saber gets killed on a dm server.

Spider AL
05-11-2002, 12:34 AM
How vast exactly?

This is a good question Nill, and it's a difficult one to answer. Hmm, in FFA and CTF, (only in my opinion) blocking should occur in at most, in 90 degrees directly in front of the player. Having the full 180 degrees covered is too much for a fast-paced FFA in my view.

We are all starting to agree on what should be done, an obvious sign that we are getting somewhere.

Indeed! In fact, I'll clarify my views definitively here for ease of reading, using a list thingy:

[list=1]
In the next patch, I believe that FFAs should be tweaked to be faster, by cutting blocking down to a smaller radius in front of the player.
In the next patch, I think in CTF either ammo supplies should be increased, or ammo consumption should be lowered once more.
In Force-enabled games, I think that Heal should be tweaked to yield more health at higher levels, but be more risky to use, perhaps by forcing the player into a meditative stance as in Single Player Level 1 Heal.
And IMO Drain should be increased in potency very slightly, because it's just not dangerous enough anymore. It should really be a rival to my Absorb, no?
Grip... well, I think grip should be un-nerfed, and I don't understand in the slightest what reason compelled them to fiddle with it at all.
Other people's good ideas: Aiee's Light stance backstab anim used for all stances, thus safely nerfing Backswing without removing its tactical advantage... Nill's hit sounds only activating if over 10 hit points have been taken, slightly increased sabre damage etc.
[/list=1]

Well there we have it. No doubt I'll come up with more hare-brained ideas I'd like to see the next patch, but I think I'll stick with these and only these for the time being. Best to keep the goal in sight.

please stop blaming the game for deaths caused by being unaware. If you are invovled in a duel and dont notice someone spamming an overpowered move and get mowed down, you only have yourself to blame.

Kaga, this is true. It doesn't make the incessant blocking less annoying in FFA, nor does it make the one backswing maneuver less boring for me to do, or less boring for those I kill. JO shouldn't be boring, ever. Waaah :ball:

TDS, absolutely the duelling is more fun, though in FF duels I feel the backswing should be nerfed in the way Aiee suggested, by making it use the Light backstab anim, but slower and harder. Otherwise it's simply a "who can pull the other person first" competition, without chance of recovery should you be pulled. I like FF duels... mmmm...

TheDarkSide
05-11-2002, 01:35 AM
Spider-
I think that's a pretty good solution for the backswing spamming. I'm not quite sure why Raven didn't just do that to begin with....

I'd say I agree with most of your list of proposed adjustments, although point 2, I think will end up being moot. Since there seems to be a sizable chunk of people who are very upset with the increased ammo consumption, I think it needs to be stated that the solution for ammo nerfing is already within our grasp with the JO editor. Quite simply, new CTF maps can be made to include either more ammo, or have ammo regenerate quicker.

I think a big part of that particular problem is due to the short supply of CTF maps we currently have at our disposal. Once the editing community gets rolling, I am confident (even if there is never another patch) that this problem will go away.

Otherwise, I pretty much agree.

TDS

PS Spider, I *love* that avatar. That glare is priceless.

Spider AL
05-11-2002, 01:51 AM
Quite simply, new CTF maps can be made to include either more ammo, or have ammo regenerate quicker.

Everything you say here is perfectly valid, and as with other popular games, I have no doubt that eventually certain user-made CTF maps will be preferred not only by competitive leagues etc. but also preferred by the average CTF player. However, the second point on my list is perhaps the easiest possible for Raven to implement. It'd be the work of a few moments to add a little more ammo on Bespin CTF et al., much faster than tweaking the blocking/knockaways or nerfing the backswing. In fact, I feel that Raven are more likely to address the CTF question than any other question people have posed throughout the post-patch debate... simply because it is purdy easy.

I *love* that avatar. That glare is priceless.

Pete Cushing's the daddy. There's no getting around it. :D

Pedantic
05-11-2002, 03:01 AM
Wow, what a change! This thread is great! :D

I think that medium spins should be sped up somewhat; patched, it looks like strong move, rather than a medium, IMO. Backstabs should be toned down damage-wise and maybe made to have a slight chance of blocking. The frequency of blocking and the arc should be decreased slightly. Also, I miss my single-tap flipkicks. Now, they are most cumbersome to perform. I would rather accidentally flip because of a small ledge than not be able to do single-tap flipkicks, IMO. These are just a few of my ideas, most of which concur with most peoples' ideas in this thread.

P.S. If anyone is thinking of organizing some sort of abstract for changes in the next patch, I would like to be a part of this. :D

zufuss
05-11-2002, 03:04 AM
im pretty sure the main problem with backstab is not the damage but the fact that if you swing around with your mouse, you get not 1 but 2 and if you do it right 3 backstab attacks with 1 hit.

This is why you get 1 hit kill backstabs...EVEN with light stance. Because the backstab is messed up. if you move around it keeps on hitting anyone and everyone it touches for the same amount of FULL damage each time.

Etz
05-11-2002, 03:26 AM
There are quite a few things I'd like to see changed. For one, the lightsaber idle damage could as well be the original 5, lightsabers are dangerous after all. I'd also like to see some real difference in stances, fighting style wise, but I doubt that will ever happen because it would take lots of time and work to make different moves for the models, not to talk about the chaos it would throw game balance into. A mod would probably be the only way to add that.

Talking about idle damage, I'm not sure how it works now. But walking into somebody with out attacking shouldn't tricker a block. This way you could force someone to back off or trigger an attack to create an opening.

I still remember what the fights were like in 1.02. People run around like in a jousting match, hitting as they passed. It might have been more exiting than the current form but it didn't look good, that's for sure. That's the reason I'd actually like to see some walking in lightsaber duels. For one thing it would make combos a lot more interesting. You could pull all those spinning moves and what not on your opponents face with out actually runnign past him or backing away. Perhaps walking speed could be little bit higher to make this feasible, what do you think? I'd say it's reasonable to assume that while walking or standing still your ability to block should be considerably higher than when you're running and out of balance (in terms of what it's like in real life).

I'm feeling bit wary of really saying my opinions about lightsaber combat because I don't consider myself a top player. I played QuakeWorld for a long time and that made me good in general terms, I know how to trick my opponents and I pick up most things really fast. But I don't have that much time to play, so I'm by no means a great player, yet.

Etz
05-11-2002, 03:29 AM
Forgot to add, I've seen this new trend (maybe not new, but this is first time I've seen it) raising its ugly head. People use normal attacks, and during the attack they rapidly move their mouse making the character twirl. This means that if you're in middle of your attack he will hit you multiple times, killing you instantly no matter how much health and shields you have will save you unless you're quick enough to move out of the way. This is difficult especially in FFA games.

Etz
05-11-2002, 04:50 AM
Splendid... a new cheat model, probably just like the hands only model used but this time it's just lightsaber so it's almost invisible. Picked this up from another thread, not sure if it's true but it wouldn't amaze me if it was.

I just wanted to add that I think moving backwards while running should be slower, the problem is that this would have huge impact on gameplay. How ever I think it would be a positive one. If I could program I'd change all this stuff and test things but as it is now that's kinda difficult, anyone up to try all this stuff? :D

btw, does anyone else find saber throwing annoying? I don't use it myself but to me it seems that it's impossible to launch attacks from heavy stance with out leaving yourself wide open for throw attack? This is just speculation because I rarely use heavy stance either :).

w1ggl3s
05-11-2002, 05:51 AM
Prepatch backstab is not as pwrfull because the players bounce off the saber hits.

The reason backstab is so good in 1.03 is cause they fixed the bouncing of bodies off sabers.

Aiee
05-11-2002, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by w1ggl3s
Prepatch backstab is not as pwrfull because the players bounce off the saber hits.

The reason backstab is so good in 1.03 is cause they fixed the bouncing of bodies off sabers.

Well, you gotta admit that someone being launched halfway over the map from a saber hit WAS a little silly ;)

-=[M@ximus]=-
05-11-2002, 01:32 PM
I read all up to 3/4 till i saw Gooly the f()()l
i agree with Spider
as he knows and some of you here have seen/heard i am running WP servers and i have never ever seen so many backstabs!

Gooly if your not retarded then the whole point of the game is too win, if u see 3 peeps using lame moves that are winning, your telling me, your going to stand there and let them just win with it? dont be silly my little boy, for u will join and try and beat those peeps with there own moves, like Spider says, i have been on the WP FF sabers only server and i aint lost one yet, all i do is either absorb and push, cause dark just plain suxs now, least drain put a stop too things slightly!
but i have always been a lighty, never a darky like spider can use both, i dont belive in the dark ;)

but for the things that got nerfed, i think over all the nerfed the lot, like if i was moaning cause i was lossing then it would be different, but the sad fact is, i dont loss, least not alot, my points anyways....
the main fact is, my Clan Own with 3 darkies and 1 light, light getting the higest rank kills there is, due too the little damage drain does now, those 3 drain, i push, no darky stands a chance against me in a FFA, not sure about Duel, but i am sure its the same....

i love the game, and will continue too play it and run servers, but the patch has compelety borked the game

IF WE WANTED Realistic moves down to the ground and all the never ending saber slow ass fighting, we would ask for a CS version mod too be made would we not? where sabers takes years too fight, and force powers a real too us

please

it is a game , and was supposed to be slighty exagerated so start putting things straight, one thing for sure, remove the Weapons nerf, there was no reason for it, and that shall make CTF fall, cause of what u did

i used repeater last night with full 300 ammo, it lasted seconds
LOL what could a defender or attacker do with that?
i know

/me throws gun at there head

there we go!

oh well, we can only hope

DeTRiTiC-iQ
05-11-2002, 02:26 PM
Since I know Spider_AL I know how hard it is to balance winning and playing fairly, and he does do it pretty well. Since i'm on 56k and usually have pings of 500+ I didn't really use sabers pre-patch. With the patch I thought I would give it ago, I'm finding I can kill players with considerably lower ping than me and considerably more skill than me just by using the backstab. So i'm currently trying to master all the moves so I don't have to rely on it.

Spider AL
05-11-2002, 02:34 PM
Well I think this is wonderful. People from both the duelling and FFA/CTF camps are agreeing on what to change and what to leave in. As Nill said, we can all congratulate ourselves on managing to be mature games players. I don't think it can be denied by anyone anymore that duelling, FFA and CTF are each distinct styles of play, and require different things from the ruleset. Thus the new patch is excellent for duelling, but impacts FFA and CTF in a negative way, as underlined above. I think we must truly start lobbying for FFA and CTF problems to be removed and ironed out in the next patch, but we must also take great care to preserve the excellent duelling style of this patch.

I'm going to see what sort of lobbying techniques may be effective...

Etz
05-11-2002, 02:56 PM
Go for it Spider!

:mob:

Perniciosus
05-11-2002, 03:29 PM
I've posted my thoughts in many of the threads here and have tried to do so in an intelligent manner despite what the other posters had done in the various topics, so you'll have to pardon me if I don't write it all out again. I am glad, however, to see that a serious discussion topic has been going on without an influx of people coming in screaming about how they think the patch sucks. But I digress: I'm here now merely to respond to something written by someone else:

Originally posted by TDS:
Here's my small addition to the patch feedback, do whatever you'd need to do to FFA and CTF to get people happy with the game again, but leave the dueling exactly as it is. It is perfect. If that involves a different set of mechanics for one vs the other, I think I could live with that.

I can see where you're coming from with this, and on some level I agree because I find 1.03 duels to be far superior to 1.02's duels, but wasn't a "different set of mechanics for one vs. the other" one of the reasons we're all here lending our constructive criticism?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't one of the most repeated complaints that multiplayer sabering wasn't like single player sabering? Each had their own mechanics and I never considered this to be a valid complaint because I liked having the difference between the two as it seemed to give gamers more to do and learn in the game. However, considering that was one of the complaints that brought us 1.03, I'm not entirely sure having separate mechanics for duels would be a good idea. Next thing we'd know, there'd be a lot of people complaining that they feel 'ripped off' in duel games because the sabering style isn't the same as it is for FFA games..

Just my thoughts.

Spider AL
05-11-2002, 04:17 PM
However, considering that was one of the complaints that brought us 1.03, I'm not entirely sure having separate mechanics for duels would be a good idea. Next thing we'd know, there'd be a lot of people complaining that they feel 'ripped off' in duel games because the sabering style isn't the same as it is for FFA games..

Good point, but I don't think it would be as much of an issue... it was primarily the sabreists who wanted SP style sabre combat, and since the most popular game mode among sabre enthusiasts is duel, I don't think they'd mind too much if we tweaked our CTF and FFA sabre combat a little eh? ;) Certainly there will be some people who won't like it... but I have a feeling it'd be a seriously minor minority.

TheDarkSide
05-11-2002, 08:40 PM
You're right that was a big suggestion,that of having MP saber more like SP saber, but that was from the "duelers" primarily.

In that statement, I was speaking for myself, since I obviously can't speak for all, but by different mechanics I should have been more clear. I'm not talking about a complete 1.02/1.03 split of saber play, but more along the lines of CTF and FFA having perhaps toned down blocking. Not reverting back to 1.02 though.



Next thing we'd know, there'd be a lot of people complaining that they feel 'ripped off' in duel games because the sabering style isn't the same as it is for FFA games..

SpiderAl's response pretty much nailed it on the head. The duelers are the ones who would be 'ripped off', and they won't complain too loudly as long as the duels are still good. There may be a few who don't like it but by and large, most of them stick to solely dueling, or are like myself, do a lot of dueling, but still like to do some FFA or CTF and wouldn't mind those being faster paced.

I've played alot in the last two days, and I'm going to come out and say even in the dueling system, back stabs are just too powerful now. The light stance backstab used to do only 70 pts of damage. Not enough to take your opponent down right off the bat, but if you got a hit in, you'd be able to finish them off with it.
Well now, the backstab in light stance does at least 125 points of damage and although I've seen it blocked once or twice, the ability to spin with it, literally does make it a new DFA type move. I think it's kill radius is pretty big too, actually.....I was able to kill someone in FRONT of me with it. They started off behind me, enabling me to start the stab, they jumped over me, got in front and approached me, and ran into the hilt of my saber, killing them instantly (full health and shields).

Change the backswings to back stabs, take the damage down from 125 pts down to 70/100/125 depending on which stance you are in. Of course, make the yellow stab slower, and red slowest to balance the added damage done. What do you guys think?

TDS

Lucky
05-11-2002, 10:08 PM
Tweaking the damage and decreasing the blocking radius will definitely speed up duels. If thats what you guys want, its what you want. I don't play duels, so i can't really offer an opinion.

As for the CTF side of the issue, I've got a few ideas that might be a lil too radical, however I'm pretty sure they'd clear up some balance issues.

first off, the balance of sabers vrs guns is somthing people have taken issue with a # of times on these forums. I think a decent compromise would be to un nerf the guns, mebe even make them a lil more useful, and make saber hits a 1 hit kill against gunners.

As it is now, you have to hit a gunner repeatedly to kill him with a saber, and thats really not feasible when yer getting shot at. In the old version, 2 hits with heavy stance tended to kill most folks, and that made the saber useful in a pinch. Usually you'd land one shot, and then get blasted into oblivion. However, at least you could take half their life with you if you were sneaky.

The gun nerfs we can all agree were in response to the saber tweaking? Other people have argued this point with me, but that discussion almost brings about an entirely seperate debate, so i don't want to get into it.

A 1 hit kill with heavy stance, 2 with medium and 3 with light. + a 2 hit kill with saber thro would definitely make the saber useful. Obviously, this system wouldn't work for dueling, so making it exclusive for a saberist vrs a gunner would seperate it from that playstyle nicely. Otherwise you could leave whatever evolved form of the dueling combat in place for Saberist vrs saberist.

In a CTF match, this would draw people into saber battles very quickly as soon as you got close enough to tap someone with a saber. If there was a chance of dying in one hit once you let someone within saber range, you'd switch just to saber just to keep from getting killed easily.

This obviously wouldn't negate the advantage of using a gun, however it would make the sabers much more lethal in any sort of circumstance where guns would be involved. If you coupled that with making the guns more useful (somthing a lot of ctf'rs have complained about in private since the release) in general, you'd have a very fast paced CTF and TDM game, with it being a suberset of the dueling style.

Second, I propose making duels in CTF and TDM worth points. Actual points, mebe a flag cap in CTF and some server set amount in TDM. That would make the whole dueling function useful in competition.

And 3rd, somthing needs to be done about the way push/pull works. I like the power it gives, but there's no real way to stay on your feet consistently unless youre actively trying to knock someone over. People have been complaining about getting dropped off of ledges quite a bit, and while I enjoy that aspect of the game, I feel like there should be *somthing* I can do to get out of being knocked over other than absorb.

So I propose a grapple hook. That would give folks an option after being flung over a ledge, and require people who threw someone off to follow up and kill them. Also, in adding somthing like that, it doesn't affect the balance that pushpull have now. Screwing with that would definitely mess up the game balance quite a bit.


Please lemme know what you think.


Lucky

Nill the Mean
05-11-2002, 11:39 PM
I think a much better option to solve the "push whores" would be to allow you to get up slowly by not pressing any buttons. By doing this, you wouldn't be able to get pushed again. You should still be able to move the mouse once you start getting up.
On a whole, I think the entire getting up thing should be more contollable.

-=[M@ximus]=-
05-12-2002, 01:14 AM
oh jooly fun *sarcasim*
just joined a Jolt server, for the pure hell of it!
11 players, all doing backstab move, i had never tried this
but i thought, ballz too it, everyone is doing it, so i tryed it

Frag Limit Reached

[HoT]M@ximusCL 40 time in 6 mins
next higest was
Padawan (cant remember name :D too fast) 10


thats how lame back stab is, the blue move u can do it at super fast speeds and i was killing like 4 peeps each time cause they where grouped

tis poop i tell u

and as for the where pushing me, i think not, absorb non stop, cause i was gettin pushed non stop, each time, filled my bar, i forced pushed them off ledge or too ground, then i skillfully backstabed em again*not...Sarcasim again*

only to find i won the round again

what a load of boring old cobblers

when too CTF, and OMG, my fav style, and i force absorbed about 12 times, and got the flag 8 time, the other times, where someone pulled/pushed, and i just stopped dead where i was :D
apart from that, defenders and attacks where confused seeing this, absorbing, speeding *non-drug way :P* attack fly in, and fly out, aslo run out of ammo and resort too sabering to death Mad man, only too loss somin like 10-3 (i note i joined as they where 3-0 ahead) ;)

poo poo, and here is some more poo just for that ;)

Lucky
05-12-2002, 02:23 AM
In response to the reply to my suggestion of a grapple:

I'm afraid changing the dynamic of the game in such a way will unravel the whole ball of string.

It's very fragile, i had no idea that CTF could be so crippled with such a seemingly minor ammo tweak.

In the future, I'd much prefer to see things added and built into the game, instead of seeing things removed or altered heavily.


Lucky

Spider AL
05-12-2002, 03:38 PM
A grapple hook is really quite a powerful tool. If included, it would change the face of the game as we know it. People would use it to hang in wait for people above doorways... it would negate falling deaths... personally I think that there should be a dark side defence against pull and push, equal to absorb. Drain used to fulfil that function. Now it does not. Another point in favour of un-nerfing drain, to a certain extent at least. Lightsiders are now undefeatable by darksiders. This is no fun for lightsiders like me, who enjoy a challenge. :(

Aiee
05-12-2002, 04:57 PM
Grappling hooks were a common mod for JK1, but they tended to make levels too easy, but saving people from all falling deaths, with nearly no exceptions. When I fell, I'd just aim at the nearest wall or ceiling and grapple. In a few, well-timed grapples, you could get out of any bad situation.

IronJedi Kaga
05-12-2002, 06:17 PM
Lots of various ideas being discussed but most have been covered to some extent. However the one I disagree with is the idea of changing the gameplay for each mode of play. Sure this community is split to an extent, but changing the gameplay for every mode would most likely result in further splits in the community. Theres already splits between ctf players and duelers, with the suggested gameplay difference for everymode you'd now have ffa saberists vs duel saberists, ffa gunners vs ctf gunners and etc.

A second thing is it would discourage all around players. How many times would a player branch out into other areas of gameplay if they had to learn 4-5 different standards of gameplay?

Third it discourages game growth. It'd be annoying enough for the experienced player but imagine how long a new player would stick around if the gameplay seemingly changed every single time they changed to a server duel server from an ffa server or ctf server.

In conclusion IMO, it just makes more sense to have a standard set of gameplay rules for every server.

Spider AL
05-12-2002, 07:14 PM
it just makes more sense to have a standard set of gameplay rules for every server.

Ah but we've already established that the ruleset of 1.03, which caters middling well for Duellists, is a terrible ruleset for FFAers and CTFers. Absolutely awful, IMO. No pace, no fluidity, and very little use for the sabre other than to backswing people.

it would discourage all around players

Speaking as an all-round player, it would encourage me quite a bit. I simply don't bother playing CTF now. It's boring. FFA is boring too, but I resolutely refuse to stop playing it, due to the commitment I've made to it as a game style. Only duelling still contains that buzz, that essence of tension that 1.02 contained. Really, 1.03 has restricted me, a dedicated all-rounder, to two modes, and one of them is boring anyway. Any alteration that restores the pace of FFA and CTF without removing the style duellists like so much is A-okay with me.

it discourages game growth. It'd be annoying enough for the experienced player but imagine how long a new player would stick around if the gameplay seemingly changed every single time they changed to a server duel server from an ffa server or ctf server.

CS and TFC are two of the more notably popular game mods in recent years. In those, the rulesets not only changed from level to level, but from patch to patch, and from character class to character class. I don't think that discouraged players at all...

Frankly, I believe that this patch has not only crippled the pace of FFA, and imbalanced CTF incredibly, but it's also taken the game further away from competitive success. I can't imagine that any large leagues will offer any sort of desirable prizes for CTFers or FFAers in the game's current state.

On the plus side we've got new maps, good bugfixes and some more options... but the problems shouldn't be ignored by anyone. The only way the game will become a success in all areas is if Raven addresses the needs of the community who play the game, and at the moment, CTFers and FFAers are in the muck up to their elbows. A change is needed in the next patch, that much is certain.

Lucky
05-12-2002, 08:07 PM
We'll, aside from all other changes involved, I still think you've only got to do one thing to reinclude CTF and FFA into the current ruleset.

Just make the sabers a 1 hit kill against gunners and un-nerf the guns. Personally, I'd like to see the guns made MORE useful.

Another thing that could be implemented and would change the balance quite a bit would be area effect damage with shields. Right now area effect doesn't seem to come into play until after you've broken down your opponents shields entirely.

As for the grapple changing the gameplay dynamic, it'd definitely do that. I think it would add to instead of detract from however. Possibly limiting the # of shots you have with a grapple to 2-3, and making it an item pick up would force you to save it for times when yer thrown off a ledge. Making it ranged as well, would limit its use to times when you find yourself looking down at a bottomless pit.

On top of that, implementing a method of cutting the line thats suspending the person that's using the grapple would still make it fairly easy to follow up and kill folks trying to save themselves, however it would give them another option other than simply self killing.

At the moment, I have a key bound to self kill when i get knocked into a drop in CTF, mostly so whoever knocked me off doesn't get any points if I have the flag and so I can spawn faster. I know a lot of other CTF'rs have similar binds. I'd love to have a grapple to rebind that key to.


Lucky

Spider AL
05-12-2002, 08:58 PM
Okay, just a little heads up... I got a reply to an e-mail I sent to ChangKhan. It's very nice of him to respond at all btw. :) There are a couple of points that are relevant to this thread, though I'm sure a few people will have received similar responses, who have tried e-mailing Raven.

He addresses the problem of CTF ammo consumption directly, saying that the team is unsure of what, if anything, they intend to do about it. But hey, at least they're looking at the problem.

With regards to my concerns over backstabs and FFA playing problems, the news is less encouraging, as he suggests that I concentrate on challenging people to duels if I don't want a messy sabre fight, or play on a larger map... I fear this is not for me, however, as the reason I don't like FFA v1.03 is because I preferred the faster pace of 1.02. The last thing I want is to slow the game down further by challenging people to duels. Furthermore nobody can win an FFA in this manner, and if I want a duelling competition I go to a duel server. ;) His next piece of advice is excellent for me however, in that he says Team FFA may not be as messy a hotchpotch. He's right of course, but only because Team FFA isn't as prone to backstabbing in groups.

With regards to my concerns over the three "force weaknesses," the pull/backswing one-hit-kill and the general slowness and cumbersomeness of 1.03 deathmatch modes, he makes no comment, which is perfectly understandable considering the volume of e-mails he would have to respond to. Still, very disheartening for me.

I think we must impress upon Raven the fact that a lot of players feel the same about the FFA/CTF problems with 1.03 if we are to get anywhere with the next patch.

/me trundles off to his workroom and puts his thinking cap on.

Lucky
05-12-2002, 10:43 PM
Huh, thats a lil discouraging in general. Maybe it was a form letter, but it sounds like he addressed specific issues.

I still stand by my proposal of one hit kills for saberists swinging at gunners.


Lucky

Aiee
05-12-2002, 11:34 PM
Spider AL - If you read my thread in game feedback, I got an email from ChangKhan a couple of days ago, in which he said that in a 1.04 patch (if they were going to do one) he had noted down the backstab and ammo consumption issues.

the relevant part of his reply looks like this (I'm cutting out the beginning because it has no real relevance to the game itself, and the end because the Jar-Jar joke would just confuse people)


These are very good suggestions (I definitely want to fix the backstabs, I thought they had been fixed, but apparently the other programmer never got around to it, and I like the idea of more ammo per pickup and/or faster respawns... and I've always been in favor of moving slower when running backwards) and I have written them down on my list for a second patch (if we do one).

Spider AL
05-13-2002, 12:23 AM
Well that's a little more encouraging... but we must make sure they don't just nerf backstabs and restore ammo, the overblocking will negate the use of the sabre in FFA at all, if that's all they do... hum...

Solo4114
05-13-2002, 01:32 AM
I dunno, man. I just got off another two or three servers, and I definitely think that the backstab needs nerfing.

People really WERE running backwards. They were doing nothing BUT the backstab move. Not just, like, two or three out of twelve. I'm talking like EVERY player. It's incredibly stupid looking and REALLY boring to play. It reminds me of the way play was with 1.02, where it became a question of "what's the point?" Honestly, when a move is unbeatable except by doing it back to the other guy (kicking down one or two guys is one thing. Having to kick down an entire team...that gets old VERY fast.) there's just no point in playing. Why? Because you KNOW that these ass masters out there will continue to spam it. Or if there's some other move that sneaks through in the next patch, they'll spam that. Put simply, if you make an easy-to-do move that has no down side to it, people out there will do it.

That's why I think these moves need to be nerfed. There should not be one-hit kills in this game. And if there are moves that dish out SERIOUS damage, IE: anything above 60 hit points or so, then they should be SLOW moves or moves that are EASILY countered if they're fast moves. There should be a downside to using a move like that.

What they did with DFA is just fine by me. What they did with heavy stance and adding blocking is also fine by me. Why? Because it levels the playing field. AND it means that you actually have to practice and work at this game to kick major ass and kill people easily. To me, that's fun. If I fight a good tough fight against someone, and they beat me, I don't mind. A good tough fight is fun. But this BS with people spamming one uber-move is boring and is not at ALL fun.

So, I think Raven should definitely nerf these moves. I don't mind leaving them in the game, they just shouldn't be an uber move. Put simply, there should be NO uber moves in the game.

That is what we call BALANCE. And it is what makes games fun.

LooNBB
05-13-2002, 12:25 PM
Wow... this thread has stayed good.

That is a bit discouraging that Raven doesn't sound to sure about future patches. It must be the work load that they have on them at the moment.

Well... I have settled into my game now I think and (sadly) I will now only play No Force Duels. I love them, but the rest of the game has really been turned into a sad parody of Star Wars which should be called "Fart Wars". Really too bad.

I am sure that the MODers will step up soon and create some really great FFA/CTF content that will bring the spark back into the game. The game is really solid, but small things just need a bit of tweaking to make it a near perfect game.

Spider AL
05-13-2002, 12:31 PM
I definitely think that the backstab needs nerfing.

I think everyone agrees that the backstab has to be nerfed in the next patch,.. but the game needs more than just that one nerf. Force powers imbalanced, FFAs slow and unwieldy... There's quite a bit to do.

What they did with heavy stance and adding blocking is also fine by me. Why? Because it levels the playing field. AND it means that you actually have to practice and work at this game to kick major ass and kill people easily.

Hmm, the playing field is always level per-se, in that everyone has the option of using any technique they want, to win, but it's certainly not balanced at the moment.

As for having to be skilled to kick ass, well one always must be skilled to win, and the most skilled players will always win, no matter the rules of the game. All increased blocking in FFA has done, is slow everything down, and encourage bigger groups of sabre fighting people, who die when someone a: Flechette spams them, or b: backstab spams them. That's not my idea of fun. ;)

there should be NO uber moves in the game.

That is indeed the point, put concisely and simply. When we're forced to use a single effective move to win, the game's lost its point totally. However nerfing in isolation is not the answer, as that's what has put us in this abysmal situation now.

My message to Raven: nerf the overpowered backswings, yes... but not so much that they're useless, and restore the force balance 1.03 has nerfed, along with the ammo consumption, and the effectiveness of the sabres... because once the backswing has gone and ammo consumption has been restored, the sabre will be no use in FFA at all, unless blocking is reduced too.

Solo4114
05-14-2002, 01:56 AM
Al,

I think some force power should remain as it is now. IE: absorb is perfectly balanced at the moment.

They've made it so that if you have absorb 2 and someone hits you with lightning 3, you'll absorb the force power, but your health will drop faster than Ted Kennedy's pants. :)

But, if you have Absorb 3, you cancel the effect out.

I do think that grip could stand to be beefed up a little, although I don't see how exactly that'd work, since I rarely use grip. I like the idea of maybe dealing out reduced damage, depending on whether you were absorbed or not.

Also, maybe absorb should only cancel out the damage, but not the move itself. IE: if someone grips with 3, and you absorb with 3, you will
not take damage, but will still be held (and must therefore push or sabre throw your way out of the move). At the same time, the enemy's movement speed is reduced, so you don't get people gripping and racing around like Speedy Gonzales after just doing an eightball.

As for the blocking radius, I do think that either a straight out reduction in the angle of protection for blocking would work well for FFA and CTF only (leave duels as they are with blocking). Alternatively, since Raven seems to prefer a uniform method of play, have blocking work less effectively if you're moving (which logically makes sense anyway).

That said, if you're playing on a true FFA server, with guns and sabres, I've had no trouble killing jedi. The weapons still work, if you use them wisely. Same goes for CTF. Someone can charge me with a lightsabre, but if I've got a rocket launcher, your ass is going flying. :)

Spider AL
05-14-2002, 01:28 PM
I think some force power should remain as it is now. IE: absorb is perfectly balanced at the moment.

balanced with what though? As Absorb stands, it makes the Light side far more powerful than the dark. The solution is to beef up the dark, but people hate that idea, because they are fearful of mad drainers and grip bunnies. :) So Raven has a choice really...

A: Beef Dark!
B: Nerf Light.
C: CUP OF COFFEE!

Undoubtedly "C" will be their first choice. I'd reccommend "A" though, as beefing up the dark side again is only fair.

maybe absorb should only cancel out the damage, but not the move itself

Well that's a fine idea, and it was similar in JK1 too. But grip was useful without being unstoppable in version 1.02. If I was slow with my absorb, I could get tipped off a cliff. If I was on the button, I'd save myself. Now, grip poses no threat to lightsiders, and I think that's very unfair to the poor Darksiders wandering around trying to kill us. They should at least get a chance. :(

I do think that either a straight out reduction in the angle of protection for blocking would work well for FFA and CTF only (leave duels as they are with blocking).

Hear hear! Take note Raven, this is the concensus. Overkill with the blocking doesn't help FFA or CTF, even though it makes duels better.

Alternatively, since Raven seems to prefer a uniform method of play, have blocking work less effectively if you're moving (which logically makes sense anyway).

Sadly I think you're right, Raven may well choose to simply ignore the fact that FFA and CTF players require different things from the game than duellists... But movement related blocking is better than nothing I suppose... even though it should be implemented anyway, as well as reduced blocking in FFA and CTF.

FW_anty_kryste
05-15-2002, 03:25 PM
in all the deiscussion about how to turn JK2 from the saberist friendly Jedi game intended by LEC and Raven into just another Half-Life gun clone with swords and magic, why hasn't anyone mentioned simply doing a "Dark Forces" MOD with no sabers or Force powers? from the 1st mention of JK2, the dev's have tried pounding the fact into everyone's heads that this is NOT your average FPS shooter. the game was always intended to focus MUCH more greatly on the saber... in fact, they specifically said their intent was to force the players to focus more on the saber and actual "tactics", rather than being tempted to run around shooting everything in sight... now, it seems the majority of "complaints" about the game or the patch have nothing to do with the game itself, but rather what the old JK community thinks they want at any given time... which, of course, is what MOD's are for! leave JK2 alone, and if anytihng needs to be "fixed" in a patch, then let's try to keep it limited to things which are actually "broken" and not try changing all aspects of the game into something it was never meant to be, simply because of a gathering of opinions...

as someone here mentioned before, the whiners are the ones who post the most, while the ones who enjoy the game are too busy playing it, so no matter how many of you here think the game needs to be more "gun friendly", there's no telling how many of us actually enjoy a saber focused game for dedicated saberists. WHERE IS OUR GAME IF THIS IS NOT IT?! stop telling Raven how you think they should have planned the game, and try telling them things are or appear to be actual glitches in the game. Sith-grip in JK was a glitch, but nobody ever tried to fix it but instead labled it a cheat or a cheap move. why is it now, that everyone expects the game to be constructed around this need to be able to shoot people in the back? when was the last time you actually saw a Jedi in a Star Wars movie or novel shooting a rocket launcher at a stormtrooper? i mean, if you're a Jedi, you act like a Jedi. if you don't want to act like a Jedi, then don't play Jedi Knight, or make a Dark Forces MOD where you can all be merceneries and play with your guns...

DON'T KILL THE ZEN OF A GOOD SABER DUEL...

that's all i ask. don't kill this game or mutate it into a clone of all the other games out there... and if Raven actually allows this small group of the public to do so, then shame on them, as well. if i have seen anything that needs to be fixed, it is the fact that in SP or MP, when using less than 3 stars for Saber Throw, the saber seems to get stuck in mid-air about 3 feet in front of my player... i've seen it happen with others online before the patch, and perhaps for many of you it has never happened or ceased to happen after the patch, but i still have a saber with a mind of its own... not only does it defy the logic of the Force by continuing to float in front of me without being able to drain the last of my mana enough to drop to the ground OR return to my hand so i can continue battling. THIS is a glitch, whether it is a common glitch, or a rare one... let's try fixing things like this before we start talking about a "need" for grappling hooks...

oh, and STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS A SHOOTER GAME! that is something it was NEVER meant to be... tell them, Raven dev's! TELL THEM!

sincerely,
anty

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 05:18 PM
in all the deiscussion about how to turn JK2 from the saberist friendly Jedi game intended by LEC and Raven into just another Half-Life gun clone with swords and magic

Anyone who's asking for JO to be turned into a half-life clone should be shot. Of course, nobody's asked for such a thing in this thread.

Sith-grip in JK was a glitch, but nobody ever tried to fix it but instead labled it a cheat or a cheap move. why is it now, that everyone expects the game to be constructed around this need to be able to shoot people in the back?

The reason Sith Grip was never patched, was because Lucasarts never bothered to patch it. Everyone (like myself) who refused to use Sithgrip because it was a seriously imbalancing bug, wished that it could be patched. However we were realistic, and knew that LEC would never bother, as the size of the JK community never warranted much effort on the part of LEC.

Now, Pre-patch, I disliked Drain's power, and felt a twinge of fear every time someone ran at me who had Drain. I wouldn't call Drain's initial power a bug, because it wasn't. But, I could have lived without drain being patched at all. I could have survived as a lightsider, against darksiders who used it. And, as you know, I did.

Now, the sides are imbalanced, because it's SO HARD to achieve balance in a game. Dark is now... weak. That's the effect of 1.03. JO also belongs to the Darksiders'. It's been taken away from them.

in fact, they specifically said their intent was to force the players to focus more on the saber and actual "tactics", rather than being tempted to run around shooting everything in sight...

Firstly, it takes exquisite skill to do the things that experienced gunners do. That needs to be made clear for those unaware of the fact. Secondly, the sabre has been DISEMPOWERED by this patch, not empowered. The damage hits do, has been decreased, so the only way to defeat people quickly, is if you're willing to be cheap, and use the backswing repetitively. Now, if the backswing is nerfed in isolation, what do you think will happen? People will use GUNS MORE. Only, since ammo is so scarce, they will camp more. This is just human nature, to adapt to changes. Now hopefully, imbalances like this will be taken into account for the next patch... The backswing can't simply be nerfed in isolation, because sabres will be less desirable than guns if it is so nerfed.

Sabres, my friend, were VERY useful before the patch. A lot of people had trouble with them, to be sure... but that doesn't mean they weren't effective. Often, people complained that the sabres were weak when they got shot... And they do the same thing now. This patch, and subsequent patches, won't alter the whiners one bit... they will continue to whine, because whining is what happens when the score at the end of the game doesn't live up to the expectations of someone's over-inflated ego. The fact is now, I'm less likely to spend the thirty seconds it'd take to duel one or two people to the death, than I am to shoot them. So from my perspective, the perspective of someone who takes pride in winning too, the patch has nerfed the sabres and slowed down the gunplay without reducing its damage.

This has also encouraged people to group together in big tight sabrefighting bundles, so there are MORE kills when someone fires a flechette into the middle of the group.

The patch... has NOT improved FFA. It's made all the problems worse, without fixing any. As for CTF, it's not currently my favourite mode, as the gameplay has been horribly reduced by the patch. Just ask any CTFer more experienced than me.

if you're a Jedi, you act like a Jedi. if you don't want to act like a Jedi, then don't play Jedi Knight, or make a Dark Forces MOD where you can all be merceneries and play with your guns...

This, I find less than pleasant. In JK, guns were popular. In JO, guns are popular. There are SO MANY non-guns players and servers out there, why do people feel the need to ridicule and exclude those who enjoy gunplay? It's snobbery, and worse, it's deeply unfair and insulting. When I want to play with the lightsabre, I play with the lightsabre, whatever server I'm on. BUT, and here's the key difference between me and some other people, I do NOT complain when I get shot. Far from it, if it was a good shot, I compliment my opponent on it! But I have honour. Not everyone has honour. Those without honour will always complain if they get shot on a server SET TO USE GUNS. They will always complain if they get pushed to their death ON A SERVER SET TO USE FORCE.

That DOESN'T mean that they have a legitimate point. I love the guns in Jedi Outcast, and I love mixing them with using the sabre, and I love using both with the force powers. A lot of people, most of whom don't post here, share that love. The love of Full Force Guns. But I play FF sabres only too! And NF sabres. Duel, Jedi Master is one of my favourites! As is holocron Sabres only. When I want to duel properly 1 on 1, I go to a duel server, as that's what its for. When I want to shoot some people and sabre them a bit, I go to a guns server. When I want to destroy people with the power of the force, I go to a full force server.

I never complain about those who enjoy other game modes. I don't ridicule them, or tell them to "go away" or "stop playing JO." To do so is very very bad, in my opinion, and should be the first thing we in the JO community strive to stop, and never allow. It's jingoism.

DON'T KILL THE ZEN OF A GOOD SABER DUEL...

Nobody in this thread has suggested that duels be changed in any way. In fact, most of the people posting in here, myself included, have remarked that the general flow of duel mode has been improved by the patch, and we have further said that we must take care to preserve this feeling of duelling if there is another patch.

and STOP TRYING TO MAKE THIS A SHOOTER GAME!

I'm appalled at this. The combination of guns and force powers is both a staid tradition, and also immense fun for those who play it and love it. Let's make this clear, while accusing others of forcing their view of what JO should be like onto the players of the game, you yourself are insisting that those who love guns with sabres and force should quit complaining and go away. That's like going onto the zone, going into a clearly labelled Canyon Oasis game, and screaming at the happily gunning players that "you're NOT PLAYING RIGHT!" It's like going onto a CTF server and shouting "DUELS IN THE MIDDLE GROUND ONLY!" I play sabres only, I love sabres only, but when I want sabres only, I go to a sabres only server. The lord sayeth: Thou shalt always define thy games correctly, and furthermore thou shalt not complain if thou hast joined a game which was clearly a guns game, about said guns.

The game is for EVERYONE except cheaters. The fact that so many players are so intolerant of other players who enjoy different things than themselves, is most dark and depressing.

FW_anty_kryste
05-15-2002, 06:28 PM
i'm sorry, did i say "remove all guns"? no? oh, i didn't think so. the point you think contradicts mine only proves my point...

YES guns add diversity to the game, just as adding sabers and force powers to any other Q3 game would add to that game's diversity... but what fun would Voyager be if you try to blast a Kinlgon with a phaser and get Froce gripped and a saber thrown at you? just because you can do it, doesn't mean you should. if it's a bug, fix it. if it's a matter of wanting the game to be different from what is supposed to be, then why not go the way of a MOD? that's the point of them, right? Q3 games are SO very MOD friendly, that non-essential changes do not need to be forced onto everyone. i don't hate gunners, and i don't hate getting shot, but i would hate for this game to be ruined for me.

now, all i have left to say is that you, too, are aware of the saber throw glitch, as i have seen you effected by it personally. do you agree that this is something which takes priority over fne tuning ammo consumption in ctf games? or is your argument for nothing than sake of argument?

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 06:52 PM
i'm sorry, did i say "remove all guns"? no? oh, i didn't think so. the point you think contradicts mine only proves my point...

If I'm not mistaken, your point was that you think sabres should be indisputably more powerful than guns, no? And that you think that certain measures being discussed in this forum and thread may make guns equal or more powerful than the sabre, therefore you oppose it?

If so, then I feel my post addresses those points. If not, I've gotten the wrong end of the stick completely.

But I, only I mind you, I'm not speaking for anyone but myself, think that sabres should be equal to guns, but not more powerful. Likewise guns should not be more powerful than the sabre. It's just my view, but it's what I'm campaigning for in the next patch, as sabres are just not as powerful as guns in 1.03, unless one uses cheap techniques. I want the sabre to be re-empowered to negate the usage of backswing, but I want ammo consumption values to be restored so that there will be less camping, and more fluidity. I have no objection to rates of fire being reduced, nor do I have any objection to damage of guns being reduced a wee bit.

but i would hate for this game to be ruined for me.

So would I. But, the game HAS in many respects been ruined for me.

Hmm, do you prefer 1.03 to 1.02? If 1.02 was good for you, then I don't see what we're arguing about. I wish a return to the 1.02 FFA and CTF dynamic, while maintaining the feeling of the current duel.

now, all i have left to say is that you, too, are aware of the saber throw glitch, as i have seen you effected by it personally. do you agree that this is something which takes priority over fne tuning ammo consumption in ctf games?

I don't actually use Sabre throw in FFA or CTF at all... when I do duel, I use it certainly. But I have to say, the glitch has only affected me once or twice, but once or twice, all my buttons have done nothing but +taunt, for no apparent reason. So it doesn't affect me all that much. If it affects you a lot, then it is a serious bug! And must be patched, if there is to be a next patch.

or is your argument for nothing than sake of argument?

Well that's not cricket! I only argue over what I truly believe in. Anyone who thinks otherwise is incorrect, to put it mildly.

FW_anty_kryste
05-15-2002, 07:11 PM
ok, so we can agrre that a bug is a bug and should be fixed, although not everyone experiences the same bugs. your taunt bug does not affect me in any way, and i never would have known about it if you hadn't mentiponed it, as many probably think the same about the saber throw glitch... and of course, there's the chance that somebody out there is going insane because their taunt command is out of control and calling them a "fodder eating nerf herder" or something ridiculously close to Stephen King's cameo in Maximum Overdrive... SO, THAT is another BUG which should be fixed, correct? if we can agree on that, then perhaps we can agree that such a change would be best fixed BEFORE implementing game play changes which alter the balance of not only power, but desirability. perhaps the notion of being more or less powerful is too vague for my point. a lightsaber should not be able to block a rocket launcher or other explosive, and i would not expect a lightsaber, even in the hands of Yoda himself, to be able to block ALL the firepower coming from a heavy repeater or secondary attack on an ST-rifle, but i think if the dev's decided less ammo would make the sabers a little more desirable than the guns, and thus encourage more saber use, then why argue with them?

in all the well thought out, mature discussions regarding these changes, can you answer me two things? why not a MOD for the changes to balance in powers of weapons and sabers? why does it have to be a patch in an "all or nothing" scenario... and i must repeat, as none have answered... where is our saber friendly game, if this is not it?

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 07:40 PM
Absolutely bugs should be fixed, which is not to say gameplay should not be tweaked, but I'm sure Raven would be grateful to hear about any bugs that come our way. Bugs, like the overkill of DFA, as Sithgrip was before, must be fixed. I don't think anyone disagrees with that at all. Backswing's as bad as any bug though.

As for

why not a MOD for the changes to balance in powers of weapons and sabers? why does it have to be a patch in an "all or nothing" scenario...

Well, first of all (and only my opinion) competitive scope is important. I wish for JO to be successful in the competitive arena with prizes and tournaments. Why d'you think I've spent all this time getting good at the game? As it stands, I don't foresee JO being a major CTF or FFA sport, because of the detrimental effects of 1.03, that have slowed the game down considerably and made both guns and sabres cumbersome in a free-for-all or deathmatch style game. Competitive leagues and so forth tend to use the latest patched version because of bugfixes, and they're less likely to employ a mod.

So there's the competitive, and then there's the fact that we feel something which we had, has been taken away from us... That sick feeling in your gut, the fear that you may lose what you LOVE about JO... the thing that makes you post here...

We've gone through that. We're on the other side. We've LOST something we love. We're fighting to get it back. That sick feeling has turned to a stone... weighing our elation down. Barely a month playing the game we love, and suddenly it's snatched away. Okay, so I'm a dramatist, sue me. :naughty: The feeling's there though.

Then, there's the difficulty of finding a server that runs the mod you like. It's easy to find a 1.03 server now, but it's already getting harder to find 1.02 servers.

Finally the poor Darksiders. I'm a lightsider so I have an unbiased opinion of this: The Dark Side is now no threat to we lightsiders. None at all. The only threat, the only person whom I fear may defeat me on a server... is another lightsider. Surely that must be fixed in the next patch, the two sides are there for a reason.

where is our saber friendly game, if this is not it?

Now you know I love sabres. I love them. That's why I play JO really, for the sabres. Pre-patch, I think sabres and guns were pretty well balanced. With the aid of the force, there wasn't a gunner I couldn't evade long enough for their absorb or dark rage to wear off... THEN I would STRIKE! mwahahahr. I won games by huge margins, because I knew when to use each weapon available. Including the sabre.

But sabre only servers are rife! More than plentiful. How would decreasing ammo costs in CTF again affect how sabre-friendly the game is?

Nill the Mean
05-15-2002, 08:24 PM
Okay, so I'm a dramatist, sue me.

Why? I feel a little drama is appropriate considering what might happen to this game. I had never ever been so enticed by a game before, and since 1.03 I hardly play it anymore. I installed, it played with much joy. For a while. After day three I was getting bored. I found myself going back to real life, which is fine, but there are always periods in which it isn't avaliable due to work/whatever... Why? Bunch of reasons explained above. It just doesn't feel right.
I really liked JK2. I thought 1.02 needed work. 1.03 definately needs work. After a demo I saw today together with a bunch of things I had already seen for myself I'm convinced that 1.03 is not stable. Many things are obviously not working the way they were intended.
Now we might never get another patch... maybe.
I feel sad. My favorite game isn't as enticing anymore.
OK, I'm done being a melodramatic prick...

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 08:32 PM
Aren't we all, Nill old bean. ;)

fgStratus
05-16-2002, 03:05 AM
The biggest problem facing Raven in terms of balancing JK2 is the large discrepancy between each of the game dynamics. It seems as if Raven just took a hodgemosh of issues from various posts regarding various imbalances and addressed them all simaultaneously. The result? Skills that were imbalanced in one dynamic (such as FFA) are now counter-productive to use in duel, or in gun servers, etc.

Some examples:
Increased Lightsaber blocking + Lower Damage:
-CTF on saber-only server is now a joke (and it arguably had been even in the last version.) Not only does absorb+speed make you essentially invulnerable (sabers too slow to hit you when you run past, absorb negates force powers), but the enchanced blocking and lower damage now makes it so anyone can run flags. CTF used to work vaguely along these lines:
Blue Team flagrunner absorb+speed whores the Red Flag.
Red Team flagrunner absorb+speed whores the Blue Flag.
Both flagrunners hide in their base. Each team attempts to mob flag carrier on opposite team and kill him by surrounding him and drain+gripwhoring him while simaultaneously beating on him.
Now grip is nerfed, drain is nerfed, absorb is nerfed, and with increased blocking / decreased damage (compounded with the abundance of healing kits/shields at home base on virtually every CTF map), it is nearly impossible to kill the flag capper unless he plays extremely poorly.
-Gun servers: Lightsabers are now even more useless on gun servers. Even if we set the obvious ease-of-use differences aside, the fact that the person who uses the gun has 26 more force points to spend on force skills since he doesn't have to invest in saber attack/defense already indicates a clear imbalance. This balance has been fixed in the realm of secondary-fire whoring (the alt-fire on repeater still fires more quickly than one can force push), however, the decrease in lightsaber damage further reduces the lightsaber to a weapon of desparation in a gun server, much like the knife/gauntlet in other DM games (except the lightsaber does less damage and if the gunner is jumping w/ absorb is untouchable.)
-Duels
If Raven had toned down damage proportionally, then duels would only be prolonged and their dream of having an intense close up melee fight would become reality. However, Raven did not tone down damage universally. As a result, we have moves that rarely connect and do low damage (normal swings), moves that rarely connect on a good player and leave you exposed (yellow/red finisher), and moves that instant kill and are unblockable (backstab).

DFA:
-FFA: DFA was very effective in FFA because of the crowding factor. Most victims of DFA were unable to dodge due to crowding and were probably paying more attention to the mob around them than the DFA whore perched outside the mob. Thus, DFA was essentially a crowd-clearer. Since no one would be focusing on the straggler, no one would prepare for his customary DFA + spin-mouse-like-madman-to-hit-everything-around-him maneuver. The effectiveness of DFA as a crowd clearer is now toned down since you can only hit what's in front of you, and only while your in the air. However, it is still a functional skill in FFAs.
-Duel: DFA in duels post-patch was almost useless. The move was easy to dodge by an attentive player, and despite being able to rotate after the DFA, a red side-swing would still be able to connect (dealing 100 dmg) without endangering the swinger. DFA in duels now is a suicide maneuver that only works out of sheer luck (your target wasn't able to move in a direction), and after landing your open to a backstab from any direction (even if the guy walks onto your saber and takes minor damage) since you are immobilized.

Drain/Absorb:
-FFA: Drain was powerful for the same reason DFA was powerful in FFA. Not everyone would be attentive enough to immediately hit absorb. As a result, you'd usually have a large mob of people with no force (pull/backswing bait), and a few people with force (the drainer/absorbers). Drain in FFA now is still viable for gaining health (since you drain from a crowd your health still rockets up), and is much more balanced from its previous position of negating the force capabilities of crowds.
-Duels: The balance between Drain/Absorb varied depending on the map. Since duels revolved (even post-patch) on the pull-backsweep combo, drain only dominated on maps where the drainer could run away in order to outlast the absorber. Now, drain is useless in duels as it can't drain enough force to stop the lightsider from re-activing absorb immediately after the drain.
-CTF: The only purpose drain played in CTF was to negate the flagbearers force so that he could be gripped then ganked while he was hiding in his base. The decreased effectiveness of drain and grip combined with the increased effectiveness of absorb has now made it literally impossible to kill a competent flagbearer who is trying to stay alive (as opposed to trying to score kills.)

In other words, the role various elements had on Jk2's gameplay varied drastically with the game type being played. I personally believe that balancing these skills requires either:
a) The skills be tweaked differently depending on the gametype
b) The gametypes be tweaked in order to equalize the roles played by various saber/force/gun skills in the different gametypes.
c) Make every saber/force/gun skill so ridiculously powerful that differences in balance would be miniscule. This would be akin to the "Rocket Arena" mod for Quake 3.
Otherwise, "balancing" an issue for one specific gametype will only imbalance it for all the other gametypes.

Here's an breakdown of the fundamental factors behind each
gamteype:

Saber-FFA:
-Large crowds.
-Difficult to discern the health of each player, or even to target specific ones.
-Distracted players.
-Wide range of health amongst the players (thus you want high damage moves in order to maximize the amount of players you kill, since injuring a player only makes him vulnerable to death by another player.)
-"Harvesting" of the newbies (when players constantly run from the good players / long fights in order to gain frags by quickly killing the easiest targets.
-Abundant healing
Duels:
-1 on 1
-Focused players
-You generaly have a good idea of the other player's health.
-Knockdown plays a prominent role (guaranteed hit.)
-No healing.

CTF:
-Large crowds again (even more tightly packed than FFA due to prescence of
-Revolves around two objectives, each usually carried by a player who becomes purely defensive.
-Uber-abundant healing.
-Coordinated force (when the teams work together to use force powers, such as drain/grip, simaultaneously .)

That's all I have time for right now since I have APs tomorrow and, in order to not fail like the inane dolt I am, I require rest. I am pleased that Raven is showing an interest in the gaming community (although as of this patch it seems directed towards the less competent faction of the gaming community), and I hope Raven will continue trying to balance this multi-faceted game.

Kickflipper.
05-16-2002, 03:32 AM
I for one liked 1.02. Yes, you had DFA spammers, but fights were more lethal. A few hits ended the fight, which made for faster and better fun IMO. Now people fight, and fight, and fight, and fight. One Saber fight I had lasted five minutes. I'm not a very skilled player, but I can't remember ANY match with a single player, in ANY game, lasting so long.

I don't like the time it takes to kill an enemy, it doesn't feel right. A saber should kill with a few blows, not eight. The predominant tactic post 1.02 is Push/Pull repeatedly, Backstab. I can't say since I didn't play it for long, but 1.02 never had such 'Push/Pull enemy to ground, win' situations.

Also, I think blocking is a tad too powerful. Why you ask? It has a BIG radius. Also it seems that no matter how you move, as long as the enemy is not attacking, Medium and Light land NO blows. I think that is wrong, at least the radius should be toned down.

Spider AL
05-16-2002, 03:27 PM
In other words, the role various elements had on Jk2's gameplay varied drastically with the game type being played.

You've hit the nail RIGHT on the head with your post Stratus. The balance across the board was better in 1.02 in my opinion, but what's more important is that Raven listens to the legitimate argument that different game modes require different things from the ruleset. What has made Duel mode much more interesting in NF, has not made CTF or FFA better in FF. If anything, it's made it worse.

I don't like the time it takes to kill an enemy, it doesn't feel right. A saber should kill with a few blows, not eight.

Absolutely correct Kf, I couldn't agree more.

fgStratus
05-16-2002, 10:05 PM
The most direct effect that backstabbing has on gameplay right now is that its the only viable move to do in a close up melee. Actually, viable is an understatement. Its a guaranteed kill close up in a melee. That's the issue that needs to be fixed- not slowing down backpedalling.

All of the effective backstabbers that I have seen run forwards and spin around quickly when they are in range to do their backstab. However, I assume Raven is like most developing companies and prefers to not be told how to fix their game. Instead, I'd like to bring to light some other/future imbalances that will arise when backstab loses its position as the dominant close-up skill.

Saberthrow: This has already been mentioned by many people, but the degree to which it is imbalanced, I believe, is severely understated. The basic procedure for hitting someone with a saberswing is to:
1) Begin your swing
2) Move in to him
3) Remain with him until the saberswing completes.
Now, anytime during this process you are open to a hit since you can't block while prepping your swing. Thus, the good players time it so that they are out of range until their swing is in the arc that deals significant damage. However, as soon as you throw in saberthrow, this system gets screwed over. All the thrower has to do is jam mouse2 at any point in this process and then roll backwards, thus dealing 30 damage (which equals that of a maximum-damage blue/yellow normal swing and is half of a red swing), and putting them out of range for step 3 since their speed becomes higher than the attacking player. Even in full force duels, normal swings are almost always counter-productive. Healing 25 (out of 30) points of the saber damage w/ lightside would cost 50 force points (half your pool on force master level), while draining as darkside would cost you about 38 force points (assuming the other player had no absorb and had a full pool of force.)

Of course, if you nerf throw too much then saber becomes even more useless in comparison with guns.

Force Kick:
They did not fix force kick in 1.03. Adding in the "double tap" has only made it better. The double-tap allows you to force kick later into your jump, thus extending the range at which it can be used. Granted, the damage is slightly reduced (27 I think), it is still better than all the normal saber swings in that
1) Its unblockable
2) It pierces shielding
3) It has a chance to knock the player down
4) It cancels the other player's swing thus keeping you safe after the attack has been executed.
5) Unlike a saberswing, you are able to block at every point leading up to, and during, the flipkick.
And it is still possible to flipkick crouching players, you just need to turn your mouse so that you are flipkicking them from your side rather than your front.

And finally, pertaining to the balancing of saber-styles across the spectrum of gametypes, I personally don't think it can be done with simply tweaking speed/blocking/damage because the costs of each saberstyle vary with the mod type.
On no force servers, everyone has equal access to each style (no force servers are max offense/max defense and oftentimes, max throw as well.) In this case, the styles should be balanced equally so that each plays an equal role.
However, on low force servers (say, you have less than 50 points to distribute), the offensive style costs 13 more points to get than the defensive style. These 13 points could have been otherwise spend for a greater access to force powers. Making offensive stance be equally effective to defensive stance would be analogous to making level three absorb as effective as level one absorb. In otherwords, if you have to invest more force points into a skill, it should be better.
This investment of force points isn't as noticeable on full force servers in this current version since there are only 4 force powers worth getting (jump, push/pull, absorb), and you have enough points to max out these, saber offense/defense, and protect (in order to recover from being pulled.)

In short, making the defensive/medium stance as effective as the offensive stance may balance the gameplay on no force servers since everyone always has all three stances at their disposal, but it would imbalance the stances on force servers since the red stance would essentially be the blue stance minus 13 force points.

Etz
05-17-2002, 05:54 AM
Excellent post fgStratus! This thread is getting better and better, but at the same my hopes are going down because only now I'm starting to understand what a difficult task balancing this game would be (relative balance). Right now I'm pretty content to wait until 1.04 comes out. Perhaps they try to tweak things heavily, if they do I've got a feeling it's going to be a stab in to dark just like 1.03 was. Maybe they will pull it off and we will have a good game in our hands, but I doubt it. The other possibility is that they tweak couple of the biggest issues people are having with the game and then let it be. After all they got SOF2 to support as well and new games to make. Raven isn't exactly famous for their customer support even if they make high quality games (which JK2 is).

Now I'm going to ask you a question. If the 1.04 will make gameplay better, but (probably) only in most mandatory ways, are you going to continue playing it? This question is especially important for people like Spider Al who aim for the (hopefully) big upcoming competitions.

I play for fun, and because playing JKO isn't very fun for me right now I've stopped playing it. I still haunt these forums and I still make maps (that's my other gaming related hobby), but before gameplay is heavily tweaked I'm not going to touch the game itself. One of my biggest gripe with this game is that it's so good. And now in my eyes Raven either by ignorance or lazyness is throwing this game away... I can't stand it. Second part of my question is, although we know that it would be though to get players for a MOD, would you play it? Because I would, but on the other hand I've got no interest in competitive playing unless the gameplay is top notch. And a MOD would probably need pretty big user base before anyone would make competitions for it.

Nill the Mean
05-17-2002, 08:15 AM
The one thing I don't get is why they beefed up things in respect to other things they nerfed. If you make one thing more effective you certainly shouldn't tone down other things that directly relate to it.
They added extra blocking AND toned the saber damage down.
They beefed absorb AND nerfed drain and grip.
The blocking radius is huge now AND you hardly get any ammo.
I would have said one or the other, not both like this.
Sigh, I gave up on JK2 now, I'm waiting until 1.04.

Spider AL
05-17-2002, 11:45 AM
I think Raven's just tried to please the vocal minority in this patch. But what else can we ask them to do? It's a tricky, dangerous situation.

Etz
05-17-2002, 01:36 PM
Yeah... that it is. The truth is I'm probably going to organize a mod no matter what kind of patch Raven puts out. Simply because I believe there are things inheritent to JKO, like the shield system that need to be changed (imho that is).

I've never tried anything like it before, but I'm hopefully about finding people who feel as I do about this game. Some of the things I'd like to see changed, or at least tested would be:

- Lightsaber is not affected by shields (which I would change to armor, just in the spirit on Star Wars).

- Kick damage down to 10 or so, it should be difficult to kill someone wielding lightsaber with simple kicks. (edit: actually perhaps not, maybe the 18-20 it's now is better, but the person using kick shoudl also be vulnerable to saber attacks during the kick to allow counters).

- Up lightsaber damage so it would only take 1 (clean hit to torso / head) to 3 hits to kill a person with 100 health.

- Change blocking somehow, perhaps only thing that needs to be done is the reduced blocking radius, perhaps something else is needed.

- Balance the force powers better, I also feel that lightsaber combats with force shouldn't turn into push / pull fest which they are now.

- Absorb should be invisible but it should eat mana much more rapidly and perhaps have a initial cost.

- Healing should be more effective, but should also have a drawback like meditatio etc.

- I think Drains primary effect should be draining enemy force as dark side is more attack oriented, healing should be a side effect, yet usefull.

- Grip... perhaps hard to believe but I haven't even tried this after 1.03 so I'm not sure how severe the nerf is. Should be made usefull which people are saying it's not right now.

- Sabercombat... probably the trickiest part of them all. I'd want to make different moves for each stance and have them separated. To actually make you able to specialize in single stance. Each stance should also have enough depth to it. Of course there shouldn't be anything to stop you from using all the stance should you choose to do so.

- Guns... these need to be balanced with rest of the game somehow. Guns are obviously the best weapon from afar, but close up saberist should cut gunner to pieces unless the gun toting rambo could evade somehow ;).

There's more than this of course, but that's the list that first came to my mind.

Spider AL
05-17-2002, 04:15 PM
If the 1.04 will make gameplay better, but (probably) only in most mandatory ways, are you going to continue playing it?

Well, yeah. But only for fun, and probably only in single-player. It's depressing really, 1.02 was the best competitive game I'd ever played.

Guns... these need to be balanced with rest of the game somehow. Guns are obviously the best weapon from afar, but close up saberist should cut gunner to pieces unless the gun toting rambo could evade somehow

This is the point I agree with most violently. Sabres just don't do enough damage in 1.03 to make them dangerous against gunners, unless you knock them over and hit them.

And Nill, you're on the ball as ever. Perfectly put.

TheDarkSide
05-17-2002, 09:06 PM
Since we've discussed this as a potential patch change previously in this thread, I felt the need to post this info here....this comes from Kenn Hoekstra's updated .plan today:

Name: Kenn Hoekstra
Email: khoekstra@ravensoft.com
Description: Project Admin
Project: General
Web Page: Kenn's Web Site
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friday, May 17th, 2002 - A few things for
the weekend:

...<edited>...

2. For those of you unhappy with the increased
saber blocking in CTF and FFA modes in the 1.03
patch for Jedi Outcast, you can turn off the
changes by setting the CVAR g_saberTraceSaberFirst
to "0" in your server configs. Setting this
to "1" = More Blocking, "0" = Less Blocking. It
defaults to "1" in 1.03.


TDS

Spider AL
05-17-2002, 10:03 PM
Well that's an excellent piece of news! May I commend you with this orange, TDS?

/me chucks an orange at TDS

Enjoy! Citrus goodness, well deserved... Now to inform me server admin mates...

Etz
05-18-2002, 01:58 PM
Has anyone actually played against humans to see what the game plays when the blocking is decreased? I'm going to try it against bots tonight but that's not the same thing.

Btw, I've almost finished my first JKO level (and my first level since the original Quake :)), here are two screenshots.

Screenie one:
http://www.mitream.fi/photoshop/misc/duel_etz1a.jpg

And screenie two:
http://www.mitream.fi/photoshop/misc/duel_etz1b.jpg

Sorry for stealing your thread for my sinister purposes, wont do again, promise :rolleyes:

Spider AL
05-18-2002, 11:08 PM
The only sinister thing about your post, Etz, is that you must have sold your soul to one of the denizens of the lower planes in order to make a level that looks that nice. :P

Etz
05-19-2002, 04:52 AM
:angel: Never!

Lucky
05-19-2002, 12:10 PM
Are there 'gunners' or simply people that play dm and ctf servers that have guns?

You might consider me a gunner, because thats about all i use, however i switch to a saber when i need to, mostly for mobility and when i get pulled.

I'd gladly use the saber *more* if it were more effective. Ive been saying that sabers against anyone not holding one should equate to a 1 hit kill or close to it. I want *more* viable options in CTF, i don't want less.

The only thing that needs to be done to balance ctf in regards to sabers vs guns is to make the saber more powerful so that its on par with the other weapons.

And I can guarantee you won't get any complaints from any serious CTF'rs, we want *more* methods of wreaking mayhem. I'd say most of us are concerned with the dynamics involved in getting, keeping, protecting etc rather than upset with saberists.

Sabers only ctf is essentially ridiculous with the current maps. I could see it being fairly interesting in a map with no powerups and a very varried interior design that let people lurk around, however the current maps need long range and powerful weapons to allow you to defend your flag.

On top of that. I dunno how many of you know about rage/speed, but lemme inform you: You can turn both of these on at the same time. This makes you extremely mobile and powerful. You take less damage, you clear a lot of ground because both rage and speed increase your movement speed and the effect is cumulative. + you do more damage.

Its difficult to kill someone with rage/speed as it is, since you can cut thru unprotected people like butter with a golan. You've got to run like lemmings and pull the person around until his rage runs out or yer in trouble.

With the 1.03 ammo constraints its damn near impossible to kill someone rolling thru yer base with rage/speed. You've got to rely on pulling them, and that doesn't work if they have a teamate energizing them.

I love the rage/speed combo, but its nearly an exploit in 1.03 simply because you don't have enough ammo to fight back. In 1.02 you've got a lot of options in dealing with attackers using the combo; not so in 1.03.

If rage/speed gets nerfed because people start to figure it out im gonna quit playing. Its the closest thing to JK1's speed that you can get in this game, and its brilliantly balanced in 1.02.

How bout the yavin roof? You guys prolly don't even know about that, but people are gonna figure it out eventually, and you'll be sorry. Sit up there with absorb and a sniper rifle and yer essentially untouchable. Its pretty difficult to get someone down now, but not as bad as it is in 1.03.

Guns and the saber need to be useful for CTF to work right, im pretty confident Raven will figure it out with the next patch.

BTW for all of you who tell us CTF'rs/Gunners to go play q3, i'd like you to tell me which q3 mod other than Jk2 has the complexity of the force in JK2? there's a reason so many of us stuck to JK for so long, even playing guns. It has nothing to do with starwars, its because we like the gameplay dynamic. Nothing else makes the cut.


Lucky

Jah Warrior
05-19-2002, 12:31 PM
Originally posted by TheDarkSide
Purplwolf,

I've been trying to make that point for a bazillion threads now.
The backsweep is in v1.02, and it's even more powerful than it is in the new patch.


yeah couldnt put it better myself. I used it far more in 1.02 and all you DFA abusers have stolen my favourite move;)

Spider AL
05-20-2002, 10:30 PM
BTW for all of you who tell us CTF'rs/Gunners to go play q3, i'd like you to tell me which q3 mod other than Jk2 has the complexity of the force in JK2? there's a reason so many of us stuck to JK for so long, even playing guns. It has nothing to do with starwars, its because we like the gameplay dynamic. Nothing else makes the cut.

Hear hear!

Nathan Wind
05-21-2002, 06:22 AM
great post lucky.

but spider, i always found in .02 that saberists had an advantage vs gunners anyway. with all the changes in the new version AND killing gun ammo seemed redundant and just eliminated gun viability completely.

Spider AL
05-22-2002, 09:38 PM
i always found in .02 that saberists had an advantage vs gunners anyway. with all the changes in the new version AND killing gun ammo seemed redundant and just eliminated gun viability completely.

No gunner worth his salt would have trouble with sabreists in 1.02 Nathan mate... at least not with absorb!

Yep, a gunner with absorb, as in JK1, is fairly unstoppable. Now in 1.03, absorb has been made more powerful, and with the sabre damage being reduced as it has been, I can trundle round with my ST and Flechette for hours without even drawing my glowstick once. Yes, I have to be more careful with my ammo and yes, games progress slower, but absorbant gunners were always the strongest in 1.02, and in 1.03? Even stronger. Everyone else has been made weak.

Nathan Wind
05-22-2002, 10:15 PM
spider, i cannot tell you how much i love your last post. it proves the argument that ive been having for days about the visibility of absorb being ESSENTIAL in the balance. (i may need to come back and quote it)

I could always beat a gunner with my saber. Personally, i dont feel that that's much of a brag. That i could always beat a gunner with my gun, an assertion that i am also willing to make, is another story entirely.

Spider AL
05-22-2002, 11:07 PM
the argument that ive been having for days about the visibility of absorb being ESSENTIAL in the balance.

Frankly Nathan, Absorb was perfect in 1.02, and as you know I'm a lightsider. The only thing that was wrong with 1.02 was the DFA's bugs. That's all that should have been fixed... the forces were perfectly balanced, the weapons were all useful. Er, except the DEMP of course.

It's a real shame that they felt the need to fix, that which was not broken.

Tonight, on a 1.03 duel server with medium force, (full powered jump) Two fellows banded together to tell me how lame I was for using the kick. According to these two fellows (OneDrop and Boba Fett/Reborn Jedi were their names) kick is lame, as is hitting people when they're on the floor, using red style, not bowing before every duel... the list goes on.

It was THOSE kind of people, the... let's put it bluntly, the whiners, the young kids who simply could not stand to lose against someone who had figured out a way round their cunning "flail in light stance" plan, that convinced Raven to tweak JO so massively. According to my CS playing friends, the same problem has occurred in CS to a lesser degree. And some people have said on this very board that Tribes 2 has been newbienerfed beyond all recognition.

WHEN will it end? Can't the developers see that they're only ruining the game for people who have played it for more than two minutes? Can't they see that it would be a bigger competitive success if it was left in the state in which it was released?

God knows, I don't. I wish I understood. Thoughts, anybody? :confused:

Lucky
05-22-2002, 11:49 PM
It will end when i get my hands on the SDK and can begin work on a mod.

I'm really getting sick of the arguement that people who enjoy shooting guns should go and play q3, people who enjoy ctf should go and play ut etc.

I must admit, its been abscent from this thread entirely, however on the rest of the forums this arguement continually rears its head. Its incredibly irritating.

Everything in this game needs to be made more powerful, the guns, the saber, the force. It's the user's responsibility to figure out how to use each of these without getting killed on spawn consistently.

I've completely given up on 1.03 for the moment. I have too much fun playing 1.02 on the select couple of servers I can still find.

The ammo constraints in 1.03 i could live with, so long as the weapons did more damage. It's got to be one or the other, unless the player speed gets shrunk to walking speed, simply because you routinely have to kill someone quite far away from your base simply to keep them from capping. It's like the average amount of time it takes to kill someone has increased substantially, but the movement speed hasnt, so all of the defensive points in all the CTF maps have been shifted outside of what can be considered your base.

That's just flawed, the most dangerous spot in a ctf map should be inside a person's base. This is one reason i dislike garrison so much; the best defensive spot is actually in the middle of the map. It's not utterly apparent to most people, so they run around in circles right next to the flag. You can't really defend, all you can do is interdict. Now the *whole* ctf mode of play is like that, and its terrible. I hate ctf with 1.03 as much as i hate garrison in 1.02.

Eveything needs a significant oomph. The saber *should* be viewed as just another weapon in CTF. It *should* be more useful, but not at the detriment of everything else.

I'm really starting to like al's idea about seperate skillsets for the different modes of play. In a duel, you want a really engrossing and entertaining match against *one* person. In ffa and CTF you want to quickly dispose of one person and move on to the next to accomplish an overarching objective that doesn't have anything to do with the combat you're currently engaging in necessarily. It needs to be fast and significantly less time consuming.

A quick fix would be to up the damage delt in a ffa or a ctf match. Then you could easily un nerf the guns and the game would resume intact.

A more direct fix would be to up the damage against people holding a gun, making the saber a very powerful weapon in the balance of things. The problem is that it would only address ff guns CTF, and in the spirit of trying to pay attention to everyone's complaints, thats not gonna work too well. The damage needs to be upped for sabers vrs sabers apparently as well. And possibly another damage level should be set for duels.

So there's 3 different damage levels that need to be tweaked and seperated, and that would allow the game to at least *flow* right. True, there's another hundered things that need to be done, but seperating and tweaking those damage levels would make the game flow correctly.

Another issue i'd like to bring up, is the force. In JK, all the forces would have been considered vastly overpowered in the light of JK2. However, what JK did right, was give everything a specific use and never keep you from using it. The skill involved was in doing *all* of the things you needed to do at the same time.

It wasn't tic tac to, it was multi dimensional chess played on top of a nascar.

Some things you did constantly, absorb/speed/seeing, were things you left on all the time, not things you used for specific instances. pull/grip/destruction/healing/jump were what you used selectively.

The challenge of course, was not in maintaining your force pool. It was to some extent, you could keep everything on and continue to move as normal for about 5 minutes. At which point you needed mana. So the game *was* essentially fought over mana boosts.

However, there were enough mana boosts that it definitely didn't keep you from doing anything you wanted to. In fact, that was one of the only ways the really talented people could kill eachother, they had to dominate the level and not let their opponent *get* any of those boosts.

They had to do very spectacular and amazing things to accomplish essentially the same thing as *drain*.

And again, let me reitterate, the skill was *not* in what you had just done and thus in conserving mana, it was in actually countering the force use of an opponent. To some extent thats present here, but the focus is definitely more on conserving mana than it is on *using* the force.

JK2 should try to take both of these into consideration. Mana conservation and actual use of the force need to be balanced in such a way that yer never focusing on just one. Then and only then, it will be a better balanced game than JK.


Lucky

Spider AL
05-23-2002, 11:48 AM
Absolutely, you've hit the nail on the head Lucky. There is no balance in 1.03. Guns are now more powerful than sabres (they weren't before, only whiney newcomer types thought so, and affected this change) But people are camping more ammo because of the constraints. The whole game has slowed to a crawl. There are silly uber-moves that people have no defence against (DFA was easily defended against, only silly whiney newcomer types thought it was unbeatable) Ultra-powerful powers like Absorb, weak sides of the force... like Dark.

Etz and I have been discussing the necessary changes we'd have to make in a mod... The more people who think like that, the better. Power to you Lucky.

Etz
05-23-2002, 01:45 PM
As Spider_Al said we've been thinking about the mod. In the end there aren't that many things that need tweaking. We could do with changes to blocking and saber damage at first and then continue from there. Of course we will need the SDK but at least we can talk about the changes while waiting for it to come out.

All who are interested could mail me: hannu_hurme@msn.com

We have an irc channel and as soon as I can set it up, a forum as well.

Nathan Wind
05-23-2002, 06:43 PM
i still dont believe guns are made stronger

Spider AL
05-23-2002, 07:32 PM
i still dont believe guns are made stronger

We-ell, let's just say that a gunner using absorb faces a sabreist of equal skill who is also using absorb... It's a given that the gunner will win that point. Pre-patch, I could hit a gunner twice with my sabre, and kill em straight off, even if they were moving. Now it's much more difficult to kill anyone with vanilla sabre moves.

And should I wish to resort to cheapness, I'd have to have good luck trying to backstab a gunner who's light on his feet, without pulling him over. :D

The guns haven't reeaally been made stronger per-se, but everything else has been made weaker, so the result is the same.

Spider AL
05-23-2002, 07:45 PM
i still dont believe guns are made stronger

We-ell, let's just say that a gunner using absorb faces a sabreist of equal skill who is also using absorb... It's a given that the gunner will win that point. Pre-patch, I could hit a gunner twice with my sabre, and kill em straight off, even if they were moving. Now it's much more difficult to kill anyone with vanilla sabre moves.

And should I wish to resort to cheapness, I'd have to have good luck trying to backstab a gunner who's light on his feet, without pulling him over. :D

The guns haven't reeaally been made stronger per-se, but everything else has been made weaker, so the result is the same.

fgStratus
05-23-2002, 11:46 PM
Gunners always had an advantage over saberists, even prepatch (although in prepatch they weren't as dominant as they are now.)

For Prepatch
If you take out the skill factor, you essentially have:
a) A lightsaber which does 30-100 damage melee that can deflect shots.
b) A gun which does similar damage, and IS RANGED.
c) Force powers

The pure lightsaberist has access to A and C, whereas the pure gunnerist has access to B and C.

However, C is not consistent with both styles of play. If the force mastery level allowed a set amount of force points to be distributed to a set of skills, the saberist would have to distribute 0-13 points to offense (ideally 13 for the offensive swings), 0-13 points to defense, and 0-18 points for throw. This left little room for other force abilities.
On the other hand, the gun-user could use those 0-44 force points on force skills, thus giving him more access to item C than the saberist (which should logically have more access to item C.)

I don't want to get into an argument about whether item A or item B is greater prepatch since there seem to be many people who claim to "kick ass with sabers against every gun user" (although I believe this to be more a deficiency in the gun user's ability than a proficiency in the saberist's ability.) However, it is unarguable that the gunner has greater access to item C.

Post-Patch:
Item C remains the same- gun users have more force points to spend. HOWEVER, this problem is slighlty alleviated since nearly all the force powers now SUCK.

But if you look at how item A and B was tweaked, they really did not do any balancing.

By reducing ammo consumption, the gun user now has even more incentives to avoid (extended/close) confrontations, instead spamming crowds then running to restock. Thus, gunners play even more defensively now- which, combined with their increased force points, makes it even more impossible for the saberists to reach them.

By reducing saber damage and increasing blocking rates, saberists have an even weaker incentive to pursue gun users, since it takes nearly four times the amount of swings to kill a gunner than it used to, and if there are health packs/shield generators around it could prove impossible to kill a gun user with sabers only (unless you pull/backswing him.)

Thus, the saber vs gun imbalance has only been exascerbated by this patch.

Hopefully Raven can expand upon the jedi vs mercenary mod (I've never played this yet) that they've already implimented, as I believe it to be a step in the right direction. Perhaps jetpacks to make up for the mercenary's lack of force jump, special goggles to make up for lack of force sight, a flamethrower equivalent to lightning etc. would fill in for the lack of force powers and make both classes enjoyable to play.

Lucky
05-24-2002, 02:55 AM
Stratus the biggest problem with your view of things is that you assume 'gunner' means someone who refuses to use a lightsaber.

At this point, it simply means someone who doesn't role play with the lighstick and uses the best weapon for a given situation.

I have no problem with using a saber, and i'd use it more if it didn't put me at such a disadvantage. I still use it probably 10-15% of the time even *with* the patch, simply cause i get my weapon pulled every now and again, and it's good protection while im looking for a different weapon.

If this were class based, which would be a really interesting take on the game, your assessment would be entirely correct. As it is however, the lightsaber is just another weapon to be used like any of the guns when the situation calls for it.

What needs to be done is to boost the saber in relation to the other weapons, not against the type of player that only uses a gun.

Someone sticking to a single weapon should be at an automatic disadvantage, even if it *is* the lightsaber.

Using different weapons strategically has always been a big part of this game, and if the saber were made more powerful it would make it worth using in the context of a game with guns in it as well.

It shouldn't dominate, and it shouldn't be worthless. It should have at least as much use as either the golan or the repeater.

Al, where's this channel at?


Lucky

Spider AL
05-24-2002, 04:16 PM
I agree with Lucky on this issue... All weapons have different advantages/disadvantages, and anyone who wants to use one weapon at all times is silly in my view. As silly as a person who aimlessly runs around levels with only a bryar pistol. Sabres have their uses, in different situations, and of course the sabre is stronger in most situations than certain guns such as the disruptor which has little power at close range, and simply weak guns such as the DEMP or bryar. But that doesn't mean that the sabre is all-powerful, nor should it be. In Jedi Outcast every player has "jedi powers" whether they're carrying a gun or a lightsabre. So when a player picks up a gun, he's not a "merc" or a "gunwhore" as some people think, he's a Jedi... with a gun. A Jedi with a gun is, and should be a force to be reckoned with.

There was always an option to play on sabres only servers before the patch. Frankly I think it was the laziness of a certain element in this community that caused Raven to nerf so many things about the game; they were constantly yammering about how guns were more powerful and needed nerfing. Well that was nonsense. The guns were well-balanced with the sabre, in that there were techniques one could use to disarm and/or get close enough to a gunner to kill him. Instead of biting the fricking bullet and going to sabres-only servers, they sought to disempower those who enjoyed target practice as much as fencing practice.

Well, Raven patched it up anyway... but of course it didn't have the desired effect. Sabres are much less powerful now, which means guns are more desirable to use... But there's less ammo, which means more people camp.

Negative negative negative effects. There is very little positive about 1.03, bar No Force sabre duelling mode. That is the only mode that was improved by the patch, and all the others were nerfed.

Al, where's this channel at?

Etz is adminning it, mail him at hannu_hurme@msn.com and he'll send you the details! I think the channel's locked and needs a key at the moment, to keep the mad flooders out ;)

Etz
05-24-2002, 06:20 PM
Yeah well not that many ppl flooding it besides me and Spider_Al at the moment :D

Anyway send a mail and I'll send you the details, the forum will be public but I'd like to limit access to the irc channel.

Lucky
05-24-2002, 07:05 PM
email sent

Nathan Wind
05-27-2002, 04:55 AM
invisible absorb hurts alot of things. however, if someone was so hell bent on only using a saber, a weapon which is in essence, a FORCE POWER, then they should realize that with this new version, as with the old one, its a waiting game. A player has an insane amount of mobility with the roll. In 1.03, instead of putting the pressure on a gunner and rolling towards him forcing him to jump and turn off absorb allowing for a pull, a player must now run, evade and hide until their ammo runs out. You either wait for ammo to run out or absorb to run out. Because of the patch, now you MUST wait for ammo and nothing more.

Spider AL
05-27-2002, 07:01 PM
Yes, the game's been slowed down in exactly the way you describe, Nathan.

But I suppose the very vocal "swing and hope, headless chicken brigade" like it that way. Slow and lethargic. Sort of a "Fisher Price Jedi Outcast" affair.

Solo4114
05-27-2002, 07:27 PM
Honestly, I like the slower style of play. And not because I prefer headless chicken action. It's because I like a thought out battle. I like to have to wait for openings and time my moves. And I like the fact that you can actually block. I could stand to see blocking toned down a little, or maybe up parrying instead. IE: make it more likely to knock a blade away than it is now, but leave the blocking the same. Something like that.

Regardless, I like 1.03's blocking system, and I don't care that it's been slowed down.

I don't even mind it in FFA. I do think that CTF probably suffers some, but then CTF with sabres seems goofy to me anyway. I'd rather play that with guns. At any rate, you can downgrade blocking on your server if you want to.

BUT, I have to say that the game is INCREDIBLY boring when you have these one hit kills in it. And you know, there's another one besides the backstab. The front flip is pretty damn powerful too. And I've seen people pulling/pushing/kicking then doing the front flip, which makes it rather hard to block.

I dunno. The game's just getting old for me, I guess. Which is good, because I'm not gonna have DSL for the next three months, so it'll be me and the bots. At least they don't spam moves. :)

Spider AL
05-27-2002, 07:33 PM
Honestly, I like the slower style of play. And not because I prefer headless chicken action. It's because I like a thought out battle. I like to have to wait for openings and time my moves

Well many people could wait for openings and time their moves... before the patch. And the sabre changes are only one aspect of it. Guns, which you suggest people use, have had their ammo cost increased, therefore more campers abound and the entire game is really a bullet-hunt for gunners. As for FFA sabre fights, well why bother in a mass-blocking group. One backswing does for the lot of em. Play's been severely shrunken and crippled by 1.03... AAgh it's so darn sad! It should have been the greatest competitive game ever... it looked like it might have been... but then the one-month-miracle-patch appeared. Save us from it.