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EekTheKat
05-10-2002, 01:42 AM
/rant on

Heh..I know I'm just asking for trouble and flamed here but....

'k well to begin, I'd like to point out some stuff I wrote in another thread :

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?=&threadid=52257

This is coming from a NF Saber only perspective. Gunners + other style gamers please feel free to chime in anything constructive to say about this.

While the backstab seems to be the new abused DFA, I feel as though it is by no means a completely unstoppable ubermove. From what I've seen most of the kills the backstab spammers are getting are from running into a 4 or 5 person lightsaber battle and "spamming" that move over and over again in an effort to rack up some quick kills.

In a one on one situation, the move is easily avoidable (simply back away while they remain stationary while the backslash/backstab animation is playing).

The real problem (as I've stated in the previous thread) is not that necessarily that this move is too "powerful" as a hit, it's that currently the risk vs. reward ratio of this move is somewhat imbalanced atm.

If the damage on this move is really an instant hit kill, in theory this move should also carry the greatest risk in executing as well.

Notice how currently when one backstabs within the light stance while one's forced to remain stationary one can still swing the camera around using the mouse to manually generate an artificial swing of sorts. Although damage from a manually swung light stance backstab might be considerably lower than the actual backstab itself, it does pose a problem in that being able to artificially swing the saber like that with your back turned greatly lowers the risk that this move *should* carry with it.

Even though the backstab spammer can somewhat have limited control of the backstabbing motion in an artifical swing arc, this does not negate the fact that you can still avoid this move with relative ease.

Ultimately in a duel or a non frantic saberfight environment...even though the backstab spammer will try to win with repeated abuse of this move :

1. They are limiting their field of vision by turning their backs to you.

2. They are forced to remain stationary (although they can still pan around in a pseudo arc - I'll have to test to what extent they can do this some more later) while they execute their attack.

3. Depending on your location in relation to the backstab spammer, they can't always pull the back attack off with regular consistancy. It's when they run towards you backwards with their sabers flailing in the opposite direction of where you're actually facing trying desperately to get another backstab off that presents the greatest opportunity to counter attack. The very fast nature of the light stance will make it so that they'll usually swing several times randomly with their back turned towards you before they can establish position to execute this move again.

This is one opening where you should really try to capitalize on. Use either fast yourself or medium to punish backstabbers while they're trying this is the best to use here - as the slow windup of the heavy stance might leave you open to eating a backstab saber while you're winding up.

4. Knowing your environment is extremely important when dealing with a backstab/backslash spammer. DO NOT LET THEM CORNER YOU INTO A TIGHT SPOT ON THE MAP. If you're fighting in a tight, small area against someone like this - make an extra effort to move into an open area where their effectiveness will be limited and your freedom of movement to avoid them will be greater.

Just a few questions (cus this just came to me and I haven't had a chance to go out + test this yet) - can the heavy/yellow backslash be blocked from a crouching defensive position? If so, does it crush certain stances guard (i.e. a heavy backslash will crush a light guard) ?

I feel as though if there is to be a nerf on the back attack moves, that it really should not come at an expense of how powerful this move is - but rather Raven should really make the risk of spamming this manuver *much* higher than it currently is. Make it so that players can really punish the spammer for abusing this move.

Because hey, I personally feel that the backstab is a really stylish finishing move. In a lot of old samurai movies this move was among one of the very slick looking bad ass finishers to swordfights.

On a personal note before the flames begin. Was I wrong in putting all of this down on writing? I feel as though there are a good portion of the backstab spammers out there already have a good feeling of what they can or cannot do with this move. And none of this information contained in this article is anything that they already don't know.

I'm hoping that for the people on this board frustrated by how abused this move has become on the servers that they can share or re-evaluate their strategies against some of these spammers.

Hopefully if the rumors of yet another upcoming patch to address this and other issues (like gun ammo) are true, this thread will help you last longer against the likes of these people.

/rant off

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 02:14 AM
An excellent post, that's what we want, less nerfing, more effective counterattacks.

e.g. Don't nerf drain, make Absorb better (instead of which, Raven nerfed Drain and made Absorb better anyway... Bleh)

Flash25
05-10-2002, 03:42 AM
If they made the recovery time a bit longer, then the move wouldn't be spammed so much. To tell you the truth, the spamming may go away. I've had some people try to run up to me in a duel, then try to turn around at the last second a throw a back swing at me from the yellow or red stance. They have been more successful than I would have liked, but I still managed to beat them. As the community gets better at the game, the less susceptible to the back attacks it will be. I think it will get to the point where it will be easily countered when telegraphed. Skill can turn it into a less than viable option.

Ten Tigers
05-10-2002, 04:06 AM
If they change the blue backstab, I will be very dissapointed. It does NOT do that much damage. If you are already hurt, yes, it may kill you. But I have done that a number of times and it is not insta-lethal. Infact, most of the time I am treated to the sound of saber grinding saber. Most people just dont know how to lay off the attack button and bitch about everything that hits them.

Stop swinging and block for a change. It DOES work.

seanconnery
05-10-2002, 04:44 AM
From a NF perspective, it's actually not hard to counter at all, unless you're facing someone who's really good at his janitorial duties. It's a BACKswing, right? Which means that the guy's BACK has to be turned towards you when he executes it! And since most people use the heavy stance to execute this move, simply switch to blue, and backstab him back! :) You'll always be faster.

Demangel
05-10-2002, 07:21 AM
the pull backstab, I never minded the backstab by itself... It is simple to evade... and CAn be blocked yes... but as soon as some dork pulls you and backstabs in any stance, it's usualy lights out, or "hey I just had 100 health and 200 shields and now I got 50 health! WTF!?"

i have countered it with kick, but I need to kick at least five times to kill, where PULL backstab only needs to work once if I am not max health and shields...

As I said backstab by itself is just fine, stylish AND only effective in the right hands... the onyl exception would be the spammer running backwards in to the herd of people saber fighting and racking up sometimes 5 more kills from one act... THAT is lame...

How to fix it? I agree make it more of a penalty to use, I am not a nerf lover... unless the move is bugged like DFA was... the bug is fixed now though so I am happy, even when I get spammed with it heheh.

Drain pissed me off when they fixed it... I wasn't a drain whore, why did I get punished? Heck I usualy play light side now, but from experience dark siders now have far less options for countering another dark sider... Lightning for example, while by itself is just fine, is now deadly to someone using drain... in the manual and elsewhere drain/absorb where the most effective counters to lightning... So now absorb is the only real effective counter to lightning... I used to kaugh as some fool would try to lightning spam me before... Now I just run away... Gee what fun heheh.

NO MORE NERFS! BALANCE YES! NERFS NO!!! You can balance by nerfing AND PREFERABLY strengthening things... why does ever balancing idea end up being a nerf? *sigh*

fgStratus
05-11-2002, 05:22 PM
Its actually possible to make the backstab unavoidable, if you (as the backstabber) angle your camera a few degrees towards your left as you do your backstab, the saber animation will begin IN the guy's stomach. The reason why this works is because the backstab starts out as a thrust towards ur 7'o clock, then turns into a counter-clockwise swing.

I also wouldn't be surprised if there was a console command that altered your camera's viewing angle so that running backwards looked the same as running forwards, there were settings that could achieve this effect in Quake 2 and 3.

Corpse
05-11-2002, 05:29 PM
i havent had any trouble defending against the backstab spammers.....hell if saber throw is enabled, just keep throwing it in his back, if not...run up and kick him in the head before he can get the move on....or just keep backing away and make him REALLY impatient :P

Lord Sokar
05-11-2002, 05:44 PM
Originally posted by Ten Tigers
If they change the blue backstab, I will be very dissapointed. It does NOT do that much damage.

And YOU do not know what the hell you're talking about.

This move WILL kill you with 100hp, IN FACT, there is a bug with this noob attack. I have ON 4 OCCASIONS watched someone do a backstab WHILE I WAS STANDING IN FRONT OF THE PERSON EXECUTING THE MOVE and I died. That's right, I died.

I wish people would just admit that this game is even more unbalanced than it ever was with 1.02 and be done with it. Or at least stop telling people shi t that isn't true.

BlackDove
05-11-2002, 06:03 PM
Uhm, blue kills you only if you STAND still...the longer that blade is "in" you, the more damage you get, and it's not a split second move, which means you can evade it...

w1ggl3s
05-11-2002, 08:49 PM
in 1.02 I died many times backstabbing people.

Because A: I didnt block every Shot

B: Many people where able to aim Timed DFA aboves on me and I didnt block those.

Backstabbing now is a joke. Very easy, Very consistent.

Ive tried to learnt he timing on it but they just block your chops even while executing the move.

Wtg there raven

w1ggl3s
05-11-2002, 08:51 PM
Nonono

The move is not any more pwrfull or less pwrfull

Raven fixed a horible bug in 1.03 (i still hate 1.03)

The ping pong off light sabers bug. where u would execute the backstab and if the guy wasnt back up against a wall and couldnt go anywhere he would get thrown accross the room

So what was once just a one hit move.. some of the times and 2 hits if you trappe dhim now

Is always a 2 sometimes 3 hit move

because the saber passes threw the aponent, causing damg first strike and onto the next.

That is by far my one and only fav feature of 1.03.

Arrghman
05-11-2002, 09:14 PM
if you are constantly killed by backstabs then i have no sympathy for you. the only way to get killed by it is to get backed into a corner and not be able to dodge. the move is slow enough in pretty much every stance that i very rarely get killed by it.. i dodge, roll or sidestep out of the way.

which, BTW, is exactly what i did in 1.02, since the backstab functions almost exactly the same.

its really very simple. if someone is backing into you, either thow at them or move out of the way. those strafe keys are there for a reason...

Obi-Wan X
05-11-2002, 11:22 PM
It is most certainly easy to avoid someone that runs backwards to you. Simply either roll, sidestep, or jump straight out of the way. Or simply use saber throw, if they want to act like fools and run backwards at you. Then let them, and rack up some points while your at it. *Bows*. http://images.amazon.com/images/G/covers/1/55/811/877/1558118772.m.gifObi-Wan Kenobi: Don't defy the council, Master, not again.
Qui-Gon Jinn: I will do what I must, Obi-Wan. :saberb:

zufuss
05-12-2002, 12:36 AM
this is what i posted in my thread...

The problem is not the damage its the fact that if you twirl around while doing it, you hit not once but twice, and if you do it right you hit a THIRD time.

Each hit is FULL damage, Their on the ground, and their helpless. Thats 3 HEAVY hits, Dead on. None can survive through that unless you have 100 health and 200 sheilds. and even then you make it out with 40 health and no sheilds.

Yes thats why you instantly die is because you arent getting hit once. You aren't even getting hit twice. But three times in about 2 seconds.

there is no defense for this, dark force has no defense, absorb eventually runs out. Its lame. Cheap and Seriously overpowered.

If Raven just makes it so that you player model freezes like all the other special moves, its a ok by me, that way you can't get those 2nd and 3rd hits in.

I really have no idea why they allowed players to move executing these moves but if they had just done it to these 3 it woulda fixed this right off the bat, i mean hell they did it to the light lunge, the medium air attack, and the heavy DFA, why the hell not the backstabs?

Ten Tigers
05-12-2002, 12:47 AM
Originally posted by Lord Sokar


And YOU do not know what the hell you're talking about.

This move WILL kill you with 100hp, IN FACT, there is a bug with this noob attack. I have ON 4 OCCASIONS watched someone do a backstab WHILE I WAS STANDING IN FRONT OF THE PERSON EXECUTING THE MOVE and I died. That's right, I died.

I wish people would just admit that this game is even more unbalanced than it ever was with 1.02 and be done with it. Or at least stop telling people shi t that isn't true.

You were standing in front of someone and got hit by there backstab? Is that what you are saying? Cause just like you, I could call you a liar because I have never seen that happen. So take a chill pill before you start telling people what they do and dont see.


But what I have seen happen is 3 out of 5 times of using blue backstab, the person does not die. In fact I get killed as my back is to them ripe for the taking. Then again I use blue backstabs as part of a combo. I dont spam it with a pull.

Ten Tigers
05-12-2002, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Arrghman
if you are constantly killed by backstabs then i have no sympathy for you. the only way to get killed by it is to get backed into a corner and not be able to dodge. the move is slow enough in pretty much every stance that i very rarely get killed by it.. i dodge, roll or sidestep out of the way.

which, BTW, is exactly what i did in 1.02, since the backstab functions almost exactly the same.

its really very simple. if someone is backing into you, either thow at them or move out of the way. those strafe keys are there for a reason...

I agree whole heartedly. Where I think a lot of the complaints come from are when people use pull excesively in tandem. Then there is no defence except for jamming out on the jump button which reduces the time spent on the ground. But there is still no avoiding the first half of the attack you spend hitting jump.

zufuss
05-12-2002, 12:56 AM
Oh and btw YOU CAN GET HIT with the Light stance backstab while standing in front of somone and i have died from this.

And no he didnt twirld around the bounding box on the backstab is wack now in 1.03 so if you touching him you still get hit.

Ten Tigers
05-12-2002, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by zufuss
Oh and btw YOU CAN GET HIT with the Light stance backstab while standing in front of somone and i have died from this.

And no he didnt twirld around the bounding box on the backstab is wack now in 1.03 so if you touching him you still get hit.

Then that is just strait wack because I have seen people side step to either side of the saber and not get hit. Or even be standing to the left or right of me and not get hit/killed. I just havent had anyone standing in front of me while I was doing a backstab.

So has anyone else had their blue backstab blocked to any degree? I know mine has. It makes a very distinct noise when someone starts to block it.

Stealth_Shot
05-12-2002, 01:18 AM
You have all made good points, but what about the lamer who uses force push and then back stab?? It is so easy to do, just push them down, run over to them, turn around and backstab away. One stab can take away around 80 health and 25 shields. If you have been hit before only once you will be dead. It is such an annoying move.

EekTheKat
05-12-2002, 01:49 AM
Possible answer to the janitor problem

Give the player more options to recover + counter the attack of the other player when they attempt the force push tactic. Instead of going after the easy answer + nerfing backstabs.

Speed up the quick recovery animation of the force recovery (quick rise) so that it beats out the frame of execution of the backstabs. Something like if you're force pushed or pulled down you can use the force to recover fast enough to beat out the other person attempting to backstab you while you're on the ground.

If what I've heard is true with the upcoming patch this and what Raven has planned to do with backstabs will go a long way into correcting the janitor issue.

Allow us to force push back while face down in addition to while on our backs (which I've seen done a few times while not face down).

Ideally I'd love to be able to quickly deliver a force push to someone as a counter to people who would try this.

As a balancing measure to this change, make it so that a force push counter while on the ground cost more than your regular force push (something like costing 2x as much) .

If you're on the ground, then you should be voulnerable and open to attacks, and the force shouldn't be able to save you all the time from being prone.

Lord Sokar
05-12-2002, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Arrghman
if you are constantly killed by backstabs then i have no sympathy for you. the only way to get killed by it is to get backed into a corner and not be able to dodge. the move is slow enough in pretty much every stance that i very rarely get killed by it.. i dodge, roll or sidestep out of the way.

Funny you should mention this. Seeing as the reason we got this PoS patch is from DFA victim whining. If you were constantly killed by a DFA whore then I have no sympathy for you.

The only way to get killed by a DFA whore is to stand your stupid ass in the way of someone doing it without getting the hell out of the way. If you ran into 10 people saber fighting to do your headless chicken swings, then you set yourself up.

So, why did we get this patch?

Rejoice nOObs, this patch is for you.

Luc Solar
05-12-2002, 03:49 AM
Originally posted by zufuss
Oh and btw YOU CAN GET HIT with the Light stance backstab while standing in front of somone and i have died from this.

And no he didnt twirld around the bounding box on the backstab is wack now in 1.03 so if you touching him you still get hit.

Zufuss is right..it's weird but true. Stand in front of someone doing the light stance backstab and you get killed. :mad:

w1ggl3s
05-12-2002, 04:16 AM
ROFL

Rejoice n00bs This patch is for you!


There are several counters to backstab.

The Invisible absorb.

The protect

The rage

The drain

THe pull before pulled

The timing a heavy swing while theyh recover

Cow_JK:O
05-12-2002, 06:42 AM
Originally posted by w1ggl3s
ROFL

Rejoice n00bs This patch is for you!


There are several counters to backstab.

The Invisible absorb.

The protect

The rage

The drain

THe pull before pulled

The timing a heavy swing while theyh recover


Invisible Absorb: Seeing, wait a little bit, pull, backstab.

Protect: Whoopteedoo. Doesn't do very much and at 100/25 I believe a 3 hitter heavy BS still kills in one 'hit'.

Rage: Its 3 hits. The 1hp thing wont help, and anyway, after they get you to 1 you're moving so slowly that they wont even need to pull.

Pull Before Pulled: Oh yeah thats a counter. "Why the hell are you getting killed! Kill before you get killed!" Ping is a factor here too...

Heavy Swing..oh please, you're DEAD but the time they're recovering.

ShockV1.89
05-12-2002, 10:55 AM
I really only use the backstab/slash if my opponent is down (pull, push, kickflip), and mostly cause I think its a damn cool looking move. I generally dont run into crowds of people backwards, although more than once in CTY, I've had the ysalimari and have crushed a mob of attackers with a few wellplaced backslashes. But I dont spam the thing.

ShockV1.89

w1ggl3s
05-12-2002, 12:00 PM
I used protect all day long.

I turn on rage if i get pulled to the ground and i see the but comming

Then i haul ass away

Pull before being pulled: IE setting traps, Or timing your pull off absorb.

and if u cant figure out how to use absorb to counter it all yer a moron :P

And Yes Heavy stand wide swoop low cut will punch right into em

Arrghman
05-12-2002, 01:14 PM
Originally posted by Lord Sokar


Funny you should mention this. Seeing as the reason we got this PoS patch is from DFA victim whining. If you were constantly killed by a DFA whore then I have no sympathy for you.

The only way to get killed by a DFA whore is to stand your stupid ass in the way of someone doing it without getting the hell out of the way. If you ran into 10 people saber fighting to do your headless chicken swings, then you set yourself up.

So, why did we get this patch?

Rejoice nOObs, this patch is for you.

people really like making assumptions on this board... but since you brought up DFA, my opinion on the backstab is exactly the same as with DFA. if you constantly got killed by it prepatch, then its your own fault for not getting out of the way. personally, i liked when people used to use DFA, it left them wide open for throws, and you could always push them away. so i agree completely, if you constantly got killed by DFA then i have no sympathy for you.

Solo4114
05-12-2002, 01:31 PM
Honestly, I hope they nerf the damage. Yeah, you read that right.

I don't believe there should be any one-hit kill moves in this game, unless all moves are one hit kills. I don't mind if the backstab deals out good strong damage, but it shouldn't kill you instantly.

And I've seen it HEAVILY spammed. Not just the pulling followed by the stab, but people just getting into a crowd and doing the move. They'll kill, like, four people at once, including those in front of them. And this is also part of the problem. The backstab is not JUST a back stab move. It's effect seems to be a full 360 degree instant killing swing. I've seen four guys clustered around one guy, he does the backstab, and ALL four of them drop. I've had it done on me at full health and 100 shields, and I die. That's crap. I mean, come on. If they leave the move as it is, people will DEFINITELY spam it.

And they'll do it especially because there is no drawback to using it currently. I say do a DFA number on these moves. Make the move force you to be stationary (no rotating cameras), make the move deal out less damage, and have the move leave you frozen for a second if you miss, thereby leaving you open to counter attack. And fix the hitbox that is created by this move. It should not kill a person in front of you or to the side. Just the back.

Vash-Trunks
05-12-2002, 01:42 PM
I've got another cheap move. The force power grip. On alot of maps, some players just grab your character, then hurl them off the ledge. Its' cheap and they do that to everyone on the map, and in Duel maps, where the action should be lightsaber based, it becomes annoying, and makes me not even want to play. For the next patch, it would be great if this power is limited. grip is becoming like what the awp is for counterstrike. An annoying n00bie weapon.

Solo4114
05-12-2002, 08:21 PM
Grip with the new patch is pretty drastically toned down. Perhaps to the point of being not quite as useful anymore, even.

You can counter grip by using push or pull on your opponent (push is better), and you can also throw your sabre while being gripped. If you turn on absorb, you'll drop out of the grip too. (just don't turn it on if they've maneuvered you over a pit...heh)

There are counters to grip, so it doesn't seem like much of a problem to me.

ShockV1.89
05-12-2002, 08:53 PM
Grip is insanely frustrating to play against, mostly cause it feels so cheesy and cheap. Its easy to counter, though, just a quick tap on the absorb button. It's even better when you let them keep trying to grip you and they keep filling your force, when its all they know how to do.

ShockV1.89

Lord Sokar
05-12-2002, 11:30 PM
Originally posted by zufuss
Oh and btw YOU CAN GET HIT with the Light stance backstab while standing in front of somone and i have died from this.

And no he didnt twirld around the bounding box on the backstab is wack now in 1.03 so if you touching him you still get hit.

Thank you for confirming this. I'm sure it's a bug, but it isn't very comforting knowing that the new DFA also has a bug to go with it.