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View Full Version : DiD people really want long drawn out fights??


Holy
05-10-2002, 03:42 PM
or was that Ravens idea?

if people/Raven wanted long drawn out fights,why are the majority of people on server using "quick kill moves" ???(yes two fo them one of them has people running around maps backwards...really reminds me of the movies that does:))

would it be because this an fps where the scoreboard is the driving force unlike the films where the drama of a saber fight looked great but in the reality of an fps world those type of fights take the adrenalin rush out of the game and make it less attractive to play?

i say less attractive to play because seven friends who where playing with me pre patch have gone back to games we played before jk2 and we played jk2 for like two months we all had a good laugh and enjoyed it ,the changes in the patch while seeming good longevity wise to me will hurt the numbers playing the game.

jmho.

Holy...out

Imrtl
05-10-2002, 03:48 PM
I don't know if people wanted long fights vs quick fights but there where lots of posts here asking to make MP sabering more like SP sabering and as such we end up with 1.03, of course I don't know if that was the only contributing factor but I'd say it did have some influence.

Vanor
05-10-2002, 04:02 PM
It's less that people wanted long drawn out fights, and more that people wanted more blocking in MP fights. I guess many did in fact want the fights to be longer. A duel that's over in 2 seconds isn't all that much fun.

As to your question about why do so many use the one hit kills?

Well I guess that depends on what type of server your on. On a FFA using a 1 hit kill makes sense, on a duel sever it makes less sense.

I would guess that human nature factors in a bit, even though many people wanted more blocking and such in saber fights, many people don't have enough self controll yet to not use the easiest way they can to win.

Pvt_Dancer
05-10-2002, 05:41 PM
I think that I must be just about the only one but I really enjoy a longer fight. Especially if both people are about evenly matched. You end up roving over the map block, parry and thrust. It can be really epic. Exciting.

I love the new combat.

Some of the people that are still using the one shot, big damage moves are just impatient, boring players. No offense to you guys as people... just that it makes for a pretty boring game IMO.

Nill the Mean
05-10-2002, 05:49 PM
As much fun as it is to have a completely epic duel, it is more believable if it could also be over very quiclky. The really long duels should always be reserved for those of equal skill. Yesterday I played a whole bunch of NF duels and none of the matches were over quickly. It took at least 3-5 minutes even when one player was clearly outmatched. You should be able to survive that long on skill, not just by the combat system.

To add to this, I see LOADS of duels that end up with both players having very little HP. This just doesn't seem right.

TrUeFoRcE
05-10-2002, 05:53 PM
i think people would want long fights, but there not set up to be long so its kill or be killed basically.....

Kinopio
05-10-2002, 05:55 PM
People want long battles in duels, but in mp games like ctf, ffa, i say bring back the old saber mp combat.

Ferox
05-10-2002, 07:18 PM
the scoreboard is a driving force IF YOU MAKE IT one.


personally i dont care if i win or lose, ive found saber only no force FFA games now.. and although i am good at dueling its like learning a whole other game in ffa so i suck.. but im having tons of fun fighting with and against other people in pure light saber battles.


i like the longer battles personally. makes it a bit more fun. the ONLY thing i have against the patch is the changing of my medium stance.. i have been playing nothing but medium in 1.3 but it just doesnt feel right like it did in 1.2



although.. nill makes a good point

"You should be able to survive that long on skill, not just by the combat system.
"


in 1.2.. sometimes i would last 2 or 3 battles on 5 hp( force and no force battles .. this was before i realized drain also healed ROFL).

Pvt_Dancer
05-10-2002, 07:23 PM
I like the length of fights in FFA.... I never play CTF. I think the length is just about right. And most duels that i see taking a long time are due to one guy running away and making the other chase after him constantly. It has nothing to do with the saber combat system.

And in games where I have actually seen two people fighting and one outclasses another... they are over pretty quickly. In fact, I have been outclassed on a few occasions and have outclassed others. There was a guy just today who came on and hadn't played much and the first couple of times I fought him it was over within a minute. And in some duels yesterday, I was knocked out of the fight within a minute or two.

In my experience with the new patch, random swinging is just not as effective as it used to be unless you are swinging randomly yourself.

Hateplow
05-10-2002, 07:25 PM
I dont mind long fights so long as it goes somewhere. I was in a NF duel server last night and I was fighthing this guy for 5 mintutes and we were both at 100 health with some sheilds. I mean come on.

Spider AL
05-10-2002, 07:27 PM
I must say, I love the new sabre system... in 1 on 1 duels ONLY. In everything else, FFA, CTF, CTY... it just ruins the pace. Frankly I don't bother using the sabre anymore in FFA et al., due to the amount of time it can take to kill someone. I could simply backslash them, but what fun is that? For me the next patch will have to address the issues of cheap kills being the only viable option at speed, or nothing will keep me playing anything but 1.02.

Arrghman
05-10-2002, 07:28 PM
watch the battle in Episode I against Darth Maul. play JK2 pre patch. now play JK2 with the patch. which one seems more like the movies? which one acts and looks and feels more authentic?

Nill the Mean
05-10-2002, 08:20 PM
Originally posted by Arrghman
watch the battle in Episode I against Darth Maul. play JK2 pre patch. now play JK2 with the patch. which one seems more like the movies? which one acts and looks and feels more authentic?

But realism isnt' always the way to go. I remember this game called Trespasser. It was incredibly realistic. You could pick up just about anything, throw it, shoot, move your virtual arm, etc... But it sucked.
Don't know if any of you know Z.O.E. (Zone of Enders)... the control system was dead simple and the action was very fast yet complex. Fast + complex + easy to control= very good game usually. But the combat system wasn't realistic. It was more of a rock paper scissor affair but then on speed. It was hellishly fun to play against other people in that game too.

Vanor
05-10-2002, 08:21 PM
Here's the problem...

Quick and deadly saber fights... along the lines of a typical fight lasting 1 min or less. Just makes dueling pointless, by the time your really into it, it's over. So longer and more drawn out fights are needed for dueling.

That doesn't mean there can't be a happy medium, if they were to reduce the blocking slightly, say 25-35% less offten then it happens in the 1.03 patch, and maybe bump up the damage by say 5-15 points, this may be the happy medium where most people will be happy.

Basicly we have to accept that sabers won't be exactly like we'd want, if both sides are going to be happy... Slow and drawn out, which duelists want, simply doesn't work in a FFA... And quick and deadly which FFA types want, makes dueling pointless.

So we'll either have to comproise, or one side will end up unhappy.

Arrghman
05-10-2002, 09:41 PM
Originally posted by Nill the Mean


But realism isnt' always the way to go. I remember this game called Trespasser. It was incredibly realistic. You could pick up just about anything, throw it, shoot, move your virtual arm, etc... But it sucked.
Don't know if any of you know Z.O.E. (Zone of Enders)... the control system was dead simple and the action was very fast yet complex. Fast + complex + easy to control= very good game usually. But the combat system wasn't realistic. It was more of a rock paper scissor affair but then on speed. It was hellishly fun to play against other people in that game too.

a good point, but realism doesnt break a game.. then again, it alone doesnt make it either. but the point is that the sabers now are the way its *supposed* to be according to the movies *and* the single player. you're not supposed to have short battles that are over in a minute or so, almost all of the movies and most of the battles in SP are made up of blocking. why is it that its good in SP but bad in MP?

D'akt Sangwar
05-10-2002, 10:27 PM
DiD people really want long drawn out fights??


well actually..i love long fights
the longer the better
i get to say all my cheesy lines, more fun if u ask me

so the answer is yes for me :)

SpaceMonkey1315
05-10-2002, 11:03 PM
you know, i really like the new long saber battles, there are dissaggerears, but it feels more 'starwarsesque' when you take a while to kill an enemy...plus, you feel a whole lot better after you kill someone when you know its harder

Nill the Mean
05-10-2002, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by Arrghman


a good point, but realism doesnt break a game.. then again, it alone doesnt make it either. but the point is that the sabers now are the way its *supposed* to be according to the movies *and* the single player. you're not supposed to have short battles that are over in a minute or so, almost all of the movies and most of the battles in SP are made up of blocking. why is it that its good in SP but bad in MP?

Indeed, almost all of the movie combat is blocking. But in the game I think to make it even better they should also lay more emphesis on the "one-strike-your-out". With no practice I could block practically 100% of what was coming in provided I didn't attack. I suddenly felt a little cheap. I would prefer having to make more effort into blocking, but then keeping it just as effective if you practice carefully.
It is good in SP because you are "The Hero".
In MP, you are just another person. If you lack skill, you should die quickly. This has been the way of things for everything since the dawn of time. Survival of the fittest and all...

Tozier
05-10-2002, 11:16 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
I must say, I love the new sabre system... in 1 on 1 duels ONLY. In everything else, FFA, CTF, CTY... it just ruins the pace. Frankly I don't bother using the sabre anymore in FFA et al., due to the amount of time it can take to kill someone. I could simply backslash them, but what fun is that? For me the next patch will have to address the issues of cheap kills being the only viable option at speed, or nothing will keep me playing anything but 1.02.

Well said. I only like the saber system on duel servers, but even then you realize that lightning is more than an annoyance now, it does HELLISH damage at level 3, and I must say that it's now the new spam over drain on matches. Or maybe I'm just noticing it more now because it can actually hurt me. I think that it should be possible for the server to switch between the 2 systems on the fly, but keep the nifty text box over your head when typing.

Oh well....

geronimo27
05-10-2002, 11:17 PM
I'm sure long fights are great for duelers, however on a CTF server, the new uber auto-blocking makes trying to kill the flag runner pointless.

The blocking should be toned down quite a bit. Players shouldn't be depending on auto-blocks to keep themselves alive.

SpaceMonkey1315
05-10-2002, 11:21 PM
well, that sort of makes sense, and thats why (even in version 1.02) i never play sabers only CTF servers, they were just made for guns, and if you DO play it with sabers, make sure force is turned on

Arrghman
05-11-2002, 02:59 AM
Originally posted by Nill the Mean


Indeed, almost all of the movie combat is blocking. But in the game I think to make it even better they should also lay more emphesis on the "one-strike-your-out". With no practice I could block practically 100% of what was coming in provided I didn't attack. I suddenly felt a little cheap. I would prefer having to make more effort into blocking, but then keeping it just as effective if you practice carefully.
It is good in SP because you are "The Hero".
In MP, you are just another person. If you lack skill, you should die quickly. This has been the way of things for everything since the dawn of time. Survival of the fittest and all...

ah, but it works similar to that... just the other way around

instead of people who lack skill dying quickly, people who have skill are able to kill people quickly, at least when they come up against someone with lower skill. personally i've been able to win a few duels pretty quickly and consistantly, so its not random... the way to win in MP is swinging in such a way that you make contact so your opponent cant block, either due to his position or the fact that he's in the middle of a swing... and that certanly requires skill.

i mean, i do see your point about blocking, but these sabers move fast, so i dont really see how you can effectively block them, especially when you've got multiple people swinigng around in a clump...

Etz
05-11-2002, 03:24 AM
As I see it the problem with current lightsaber combat in JKII is the fact that you need no skill what so ever to block attacks. You can walk into a corner and stand there with out doing anything, not counting backsweep and some special moves your opponent wont be able to harm you.

Somebody mentioned realism, that's all good and well. But have you considered that flip side? If you hit somebody with lightsaber, that somebody should be cut in half, or lose a limb. In my eyes the saber combat should take lots of skill, and it should take only 1 or 2 hits to kill a person with any stance. Expert against newbie fights should last maybe as long as it takes to deliver 3 strikes, first one is probably blocked, next two will hit and cut the opponent in pieces.

This doesn't mean duels would be as short as well. Two good players should be still able to block each other and manouver enough to make it an interesting fight.

Right now saberduels just don't feel deadly, I can land solid hit after solid hit in FFA game and the guy just keeps running. No what is that? It just doesn't feel right, and in FFA games it's essential to be able to defeat your opponents quickly. Otherwise in large games things will soon be so chaotic that there's hardly any skill involved. Just a mass of jedis running around like headless chicken, hitting each other randomly.

Perhaps the right way to go would be to keep blocking as good as it is, but make the arch in front of the player very small. I'd also like to see some real style differences between the three different stances, now the only difference is speed and damage, the moves themselves are nearly identical.

jmcdavel
05-11-2002, 04:24 AM
The other night I was watching this guy block saber attacks that came from BEHIND. I mean.. the blocking is just too much.

Reduce the blocking %, tighten up the combo motions (I love strong stance combo moves but they are just too difficult to pull off in a pinch), and figure out a way to deemphasize backstab (but keep it, it just looks cool) and I'll be happy.

Arrghman
05-11-2002, 01:41 PM
Right now saberduels just don't feel deadly, I can land solid hit after solid hit in FFA game and the guy just keeps running.

thats because those *arent solid hits*... what was a solid hit prepatch isnt necessarily one now. i've made, and been victim to, some very solid hits that take away a heck of a lot of HP. the point is, while it doesnt take much skill to block, it takes more skill to make a hit now

XxWinnaRxX
05-11-2002, 02:03 PM
... I believe I got flamed by a bunch of people for suggestion the idea of making it really easy to block, with really high saber damage for cooler saber fights.

I got called a st00p n00bie for having an idea like that.

...Here we are, with the 1.03 patch that does *gasp* exactly what I suggested.

Curious.


What still puzzles me is that the saber doesn't do one hit kills anymore. That'd be awesome if, since blocking is so easy, a big epic duel occurs, but, like in the movies, the first guy to get hit with a lightsaber dies, after much spiffy looking swordplay.

That would also make gun vs. saber a lot more balanced.
I've been hearing people say that gun vs. saber isn't balanced, so just make the saber do one-hit kills, at least against people with guns. If they can get in that close, they deserve the kill.

Am I right?

MrCrusher
05-11-2002, 02:27 PM
DiD people really want long drawn out fights??


Yes.


;)