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View Full Version : What is with all the fuss?


Pint0 Xtreme
05-11-2002, 07:52 AM
This is by far one of the most detailed and full melee game I have ever played. Of course, there are so many here who think otherwise. Let me take a minute here to defend the characteristics of the game that people are making a fuss of. (Btw, this post is intended to contain intellectual material and should be regarded as a post worth understanding before replying. If you are going to spam unsupported assertions, do not bother reading this.)

1.) Saber Fighting: This is, obviously, the meat and core of the patch 1.03. It is the saber fighting difference that separates praisers and nay-sayers. First of all, I am going to say that the saber fighting as of now is how it should be.

In the original version, you had a very sloppy duplication of the saber fighting involved. It consisted purely on movement and type of swing. Blocking was always accidental and could never be relied on as a means of defend oneself. Furthermore, the system was so horribly patched together that at times, lightsabers would slice through opponents without registering the hits. The damage of the lightsaber was so unevenly separated and the touch of the tip could mean instant death(ie. DFA). Accidental deaths then occured more frequently among the most skilled players and it was impossible to really exceed the ceiling level of ability set by such a system.

The new version now eliminated constant swinging that made normal style and the fast style the same style! It now added blocking as a means of defense and added a new dimension of fighting. How you ask? Well, now one must not only think of the timing, movement and type of swing but they must also tactically determine the methods of breaking one's defense and fooling the opponent into opening themselves. Blocking lightsaber shots DO NOT make the fighting "nerfed". Though it may look better, that is not the point. The point of adding blocking hits is to add to the depth of gameplay and strategy required in winning. And after playing many rounds, I can confidently saying that it is possible to hit someone acting completely defensive. Swings are now deliberate and not random. Thus, if you would like to put it this way, skill potential has increased in this game. Those having trouble should really watch successful players. They are successful for a reason.

2.) Back-stabbing: Though I may not necessarily agree with the power that back-stabbing brings with it, it is really a minor detail. Why do I think back-stabbing an acceptable part of the game? Well, first of all, it is difficult to back-stab someone. Really. It is far more difficult to attempt a back-stab than to DFA spam in the original version.

Back-stabbing is a movement primarily to outsmart the opponent by producing a surprise attack from the rear. I WILL agree that the power should be reduced slightly(ONLY slightly). However, one should realize that the back-stab move cannot be exploited so easily as to dominate the game as the DFA did. It is fairly difficult to move into the correct position with the enemy at the correct point AND to execute the attack WITHOUT the enemy knowing it. I have played countless players and everytime I have died from a back-stab, it was due to their ability to outsmart me. In other words, a back-stabbed kill is a kill well deserved.

For those who have trouble fighting back-stabbers that would run at you with their backs, I can only say that you need to learn how to fight because it is ridiculous how easy it is counter that. (Hint: jump/overhead swipe)

3.) Force Powers: This is where I probably have most difficulty understanding. The force powers are very balanced. To begin with, I will first say that reducing a dominant force power is not necessarily worst than improving a weak force power. One should always be aware not to assert fallacious ideas. Such include saying that reducing force powers would lead to force powers becoming useless. This is incorrect thinking because one could ALSO say that improving force powers would lead to a game dominated by force powers rendering the lightsaber(the primary weapon) useless.

For one thing, it should be agreed that Force Drain was far too good and powerful. A level 3 Force Drain could instantly revive his health given his opponent had the force pool available. Furthermore, this force power hardly had any counter or defense. The closest thing was force absorb. Even yet, it was entirely useless since the drainer had the opportunity to drain with impunity when absorber ran out of absorb power.

I am unsure that reducing drain was that great of a move but, personally, I find it still does its job. When hurt, it still heals. And furthermore, drain becomes what it is supposed to be. A tactical force power. Not a dominant one. Making absorb invisible to the attacker was an excellent move by Raven. Now the light-side has a defense. This is purely only fair since the drainer has the opportunity to drain at his timing. In fact, you can hear absorb when it is turned on, giving drainers with good ears the upper hand. Really, Raven should have done away with the sound as well.

Of course, to compensate for the reducing of drain, Raven decided to reduce force heal. I suppose it is a rational choice given that the sabers deal less damage.

4.) Jump-kicking: I do not have much to comment on this notion. I do not see what the problem is. I have jump-kicked opponents countless times with ease. Really, what are you people complaining about?


Conclusion: In the end, there isn't really anything horrific about the patch. It is done a great deal in deepening the depth of detail and strategy involved with the game. I have given a detailed argument why this patch has done good for the game. Perhaps its the depth of detail that nay-sayers do not like. If that is the case, I would point you out to JK1 or merely the original version of JK2. Those games deal with constant swinging and a game based primarily on movement, swinging and luck. If I missed any factors, please inform me. As of right now, I see no reason why it can receive so much criticism. I can confidently say that this game is one of the best melee games out there today. The MP game is filled with detail and strategy. Something that should have been there in the first place.

Chastan
05-11-2002, 07:57 AM
Don't worry, I think people will eventually see the light :D

NerfYoda
05-11-2002, 08:31 AM
Thats been the general trend. People I've seen are starting to come about & adapt to new gameplay styles.

Plan9
05-11-2002, 08:50 AM
1.) Just an observation but did you ever stop to think that ::gasp:: Sabers might pass through an oppenent due to lag and packetloss?? No, couldn't be that..never!

2.) backstabbing someone:

Wait til they swing
Force Pull
Turn Back
Attack
Dead

Yes, omg, thats incredibly freaking hard. To make it even easier, there are now scripts that will do most of it for you!

3.) All a matter of opinion, I guess. I've heard plenty of lightsiders admit themselves that they feel Absorb is overpowered. Dont forget that grip was also nerfed hard.

4.) I dont get what the reason for even changing it was. Newbs were having trouble jumping up ledges...? Boo-****ing-hoo. Why not set an option that allows the user to define whether they want single or double tap backflips? Seems like it'd be incredibly easy to do, to me.

Evil_Gloop
05-11-2002, 09:18 AM
I am happy with the changes introduced by Raven in 1.03.
Why? Because it forces me to think more about the stances which I use in any given situation, and "rushing in" rarely works anymore because most attacks are blocked.
1.03 doesn't mess up the combat system, it enhances it: practising with the Bots (haven't played online yet) alot I have noticed that they are harder to kill now, before the patch I could go 10:0 in a duel against them on Jediknight difficulty level, now I loose more often, and actually have to plan my attacks, leaving room for a retreat.
The only problem that I have encountered is the alteraltion to the Drain force power. I used it heavily before but now I have to run to the health packs and memorise their location on every map, thats not a bad thing is it.
Conclusion: 1.03 is a successful attempt to add a far more complex system to the game, if we all have to think more then the bouts we get invovled last longer and definately look as cinematic as any movie fight.

NerfYoda
05-11-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Plan9
1.) Just an observation but did you ever stop to think that ::gasp:: Sabers might pass through an oppenent due to lag and packetloss?? No, couldn't be that..never!

No thats the old Internet. The new improved Internet has no packetloss at all. It's great! It massages my feet as well after a hard days work & makes me a sandwich & joyfully hands me the remote after sex! Thanks, new Internet! It's kinda like a Segway, but it you dont stand on it & it doesn't physically go anywhere really...

Pint0 Xtreme
05-11-2002, 07:10 PM
1.) Just an observation but did you ever stop to think that ::gasp:: Sabers might pass through an oppenent due to lag and packetloss?? No, couldn't be that..never!

Sure, packetloss. It doesn't seem to be happening in V1.03. Perhaps it's because it is now fixed!! Furthermore, in the original version, the system was based on magical boxes. And sometimes, hits would go unregistered BECAUSE of the way the system was designed, NOT because of lag. This I have witnessed and concluded simply because of certain moves that I had used that produced the SAME effect for EVERYONE.

2.) backstabbing someone:

Wait til they swing
Force Pull
Turn Back
Attack
Dead

Yes, omg, thats incredibly freaking hard. To make it even easier, there are now scripts that will do most of it for you!

This sounds very familiar to me. Ah yes, I happened to me when I played the original version. Back stabbing using Force powers is NOTHING new. I had always done it when playing the original version. It works then as well as it does now.

3.) All a matter of opinion, I guess. I've heard plenty of lightsiders admit themselves that they feel Absorb is overpowered. Dont forget that grip was also nerfed hard.
Because lightsiders say it is overpowered doesn't mean it is. This mentality could have easily been caused by the sudden balancing of force powers. It is not REALLY a matter of opinion. Absorb's invisibility balances drain's advantage of timing. I've explained about this already.

4.) I dont get what the reason for even changing it was. Newbs were having trouble jumping up ledges...? Boo-****ing-hoo. Why not set an option that allows the user to define whether they want single or double tap backflips? Seems like it'd be incredibly easy to do, to me.
Why is this even a complaint?? Jump-kicking is so easy either way that I don't even notice it. It amazes me how many people complain about this. Furthermore, change that help newbies is NOT A BAD THING! It will be extremely selfish of the gaming community to disregard the needs of new comers. Remember that everyone here was a newbie once. Newbies keep the gaming community well alive. They are, in a way, the future of the gaming community.

UsEr-X-
05-11-2002, 07:15 PM
You are SO right Pint0 Xtreme you said it like it is DAWG. Plan9 i think you are a fagwhore and should go away

BlackDove
05-11-2002, 07:19 PM
But then again, nobody cares what you think ;)

geronimo27
05-11-2002, 07:25 PM
Originally posted by NerfYoda
Thats been the general trend. People I've seen are starting to come about & adapt to new gameplay styles.

It all depends on what side of the fence you are standing on.

I run a 1.02 server, and I see it filling up more and more with people who tried 1.03 for awhile and just disliked it, so they reverted back to 1.02.

UsEr-X-
05-11-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by =SSC=Kal-El
But then again, nobody cares what you think ;)

And what your a f*&(ing jesus christ? ya right jasdfjkajsdjafdgdsfgf SUCKER

BlackDove
05-11-2002, 07:32 PM
Charming, to the last.

jussi
05-11-2002, 09:14 PM
You're so right Pint0 Xtreme!
1.03 takes much more skill now. As the sabercombat takes longer, it's also much more intense, not just dodging DFA anymore. JKII is definetly one of the best games i've ever played, now more than ever.

UsEr-X-
05-11-2002, 09:18 PM
Everyone agrees =SSC=Kal-El is not cool. Dude get a life why u diss everyone i bet ur a llama fag

BlackDove
05-11-2002, 09:30 PM
How many voices do you have in your head, when you say "everyone"?

Lucky
05-11-2002, 09:42 PM
You forgot about the gun balance, repeater/golan got nerfed heavily *because* of the saber improvements.

So now its very hard to play a reasonable game in ctf. Yippe.


Lucky

BloodRayne
05-11-2002, 09:57 PM
----

2.) Back-stabbing: Though I may not necessarily agree with the power that back-stabbing brings with it, it is really a minor detail. Why do I think back-stabbing an acceptable part of the game? Well, first of all, it is difficult to back-stab someone. Really. It is far more difficult to attempt a back-stab than to DFA spam in the original version.

Back-stabbing is a movement primarily to outsmart the opponent by producing a surprise attack from the rear. I WILL agree that the power should be reduced slightly(ONLY slightly). However, one should realize that the back-stab move cannot be exploited so easily as to dominate the game as the DFA did. It is fairly difficult to move into the correct position with the enemy at the correct point AND to execute the attack WITHOUT the enemy knowing it. I have played countless players and everytime I have died from a back-stab, it was due to their ability to outsmart me. In other words, a back-stabbed kill is a kill well deserved.

For those who have trouble fighting back-stabbers that would run at you with their backs, I can only say that you need to learn how to fight because it is ridiculous how easy it is counter that. (Hint: jump/overhead swipe)

----

Back spin ( back attack doing a spin ) are incredeble easy to do. So easy all do it. ITs incredibly powerfull.

And if i do that alway. Im top of player in score in the game. Each map. Players not doing it are
1) newbie,
2) intermediate
3) They dont know how to do it
4) Player know that move but not doing it cause its lame.

And player doing it alway are
1) chiken
2) lamer
3) whores
4) can't do anything else
5) they want score
6) etc etc etc.

I personaly do it yes. But not all the time like some. Anyway They did a mistake leaving player turn arround while doing a back attack. If they jam them like DFA its will be way less used.

Also its more a wooden staff with light effect game then a light saber. They need to add more damage to hit. Its rediculous how long its take to kill someone if you not do any cheap move like back spin and turn with it.

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/bloodrayne_031802_299.jpg
"The blood on my hands is merely proof of my ambition"