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View Full Version : tested out 1.03 saber fights tonight


blowdpanis
05-12-2002, 09:35 AM
playing some actual skillful players, that qualification being justified in having experienced what 'skilled' meant for the last 7 years or so in fps'ers...

my thoughts? the patch is pretty cool...if you're good, you'll still win. watching the fights is MORE interesting than it used to be. fights are NOT meaningless/random, and charging/hacking away at abandon is not an effective strategy. play somebody who's genuinely good with that type of strategy and you'll lose virtually every time.

i can't comment on the guns/ammo complaints, but the saber combat seems pretty tight. if my understanding is right, the only actual DAMAGE that was affected was primarily in the heavy stance in respect to the DFA and the beginning/end of swings. how would any of that really make the saber LESS effective against the guns than it used to be?

all that said, i did like the old combat system, and was getting pretty proficient at it. so what. right now, the combat feels more interesting than it used to and certainly relies less on the heavy stance, which imo is a good thing (as fast combat is a plus in my book).

are you people criticizing the changes to saber combat actually trying this out against GOOD people? this is probably a case of 'oh i know this guy who's sooooo good,' like people would constantly say in games like doom and quake. the truth is, the VERY skilled players are a minority of the gaming community, and if you run across them, you'll know it.

Outlaw
05-12-2002, 11:31 AM
I messed around with the patched multiplayer as well. To me it seems like an improvement. I play on a 56k modem with very good performance. But, what lag there was seemed the death of me in saber fights. Now, with improved defenses, I'm winning more saber fights. This patch seems to favor new commers and modem players without severely harming the experts which for now is fine by me.

BlackDove
05-12-2002, 11:34 AM
Originally posted by blowdpanis
playing some actual skillful players, that qualification being justified in having experienced what 'skilled' meant for the last 7 years or so in fps'ers...

my thoughts? the patch is pretty cool...if you're good, you'll still win. watching the fights is MORE interesting than it used to be. fights are NOT meaningless/random, and charging/hacking away at abandon is not an effective strategy. play somebody who's genuinely good with that type of strategy and you'll lose virtually every time.

i can't comment on the guns/ammo complaints, but the saber combat seems pretty tight. if my understanding is right, the only actual DAMAGE that was affected was primarily in the heavy stance in respect to the DFA and the beginning/end of swings. how would any of that really make the saber LESS effective against the guns than it used to be?

all that said, i did like the old combat system, and was getting pretty proficient at it. so what. right now, the combat feels more interesting than it used to and certainly relies less on the heavy stance, which imo is a good thing (as fast combat is a plus in my book).

are you people criticizing the changes to saber combat actually trying this out against GOOD people? this is probably a case of 'oh i know this guy who's sooooo good,' like people would constantly say in games like doom and quake. the truth is, the VERY skilled players are a minority of the gaming community, and if you run across them, you'll know it.

Yep you got it all, the thing is just that now we gotta abolish or reduce that gay moves (ie kicking and backstabbing) :)

Kairon
05-12-2002, 11:58 AM
I have been using the patch since wednesday now, and while I agree that 1 on 1 duels have become better, the FFA saber only fights seems very strange... The most used tactic is the "whirl til you hurl" tactic, because even if it does not work well 1 on 1, it seems to work very well in a crowd.

So far, I can't say that FFA fights are any fun at all, I can still kill a lot of people by twirling around on blue or yellow, but its not nearly as fun as it used to be... Before the patch you could kill every twirler easy with a well timed heavy blow, but now that doesnt seem to work. And it not just me who sucks at it, since every FFA fight I've been in has degenerated into twirl fests.

Does anyone find FFA lightsaber fights fun now? And if so, what do you do to stop people from spinning around like maniacs?

Spider AL
05-12-2002, 03:44 PM
Kairon, I too feel that FFA has gone down the pan as a result of the increased blocking and ultra-backsweepers that the patch has created.

In the "Post-patch: Yes, I feel cheap" thread, these views are expressed by many people. Hopefully, we can count on your support :)

GooglyMoogly
05-12-2002, 04:24 PM
You know...it just takes more thought and better keyboard control now. Gone are the random swings you would get before by just standing still and hitting attack. They have been replaced by MOVES!!!. Now if you want to do a forward lunge then a left and right slice you actually need to TIME your keystrokes to pull it off...before all you had to do was mash the attack button and you would magically create combos.

As far as FFA goes...yeah it usually ends up being a cluster-f**k, but thats not the patch, its the people who don't know any better. When I see this sort of gang-bang going on I simply stand back and wait until someone breaks from the crowd and attacks me...or if I suddenly find myself in the middle of one I break away and go find someone to fight. Simple isn't it?

No one says you have to jump on the wagon and start the whirly-bird moves into a crowd. If you don't like these fights then don't play in them...sooner or later if everyone refuses to enage in the gank-fest it will stop.

This patch got a whole lot more RIGHT than it did WRONG. I did find it frustrating at first, but when you start to understand the moves and combos it is WAAAAAYYYYYY better than 1.02.

grandmasterlee
05-12-2002, 04:54 PM
Well, I think is blows. Feels like I'm swinging a whiffle ball bat, I prefered 1.02 thanks.

nattydred
05-12-2002, 05:48 PM
Dueling is great!


People who dont like it are all just babies. They thought they had reached some "elite" status because they learned how to spam one move over and over again. Now they are pissed because dueling takes more skill now.

People that were good before are still good. Dueling takes more brains and tactics now than before.

Only snotty nosed little whiners who deluded themselves into thinking they were "elite" are pissed about the way dueling is now.



I scoff at them and love to see them cry! While they refuse to play the patch, the rest of us are enjoying it.

I hope the Devs ignore their BS.
.

blowdpanis
05-12-2002, 06:52 PM
having watched one very good player in particular, something caught my attention...

with more of a balance between the three stances, MORE strategy seemed to be involved. timing was a lot more important, and if anything a bit harder than relying on dfa/heavy stance timing. people still died in the same number of hits more or less, it's just the actual blocking was turned up...

it really is what a LOT of people asked for. in terms of dueling, this new system seems to have a lot of potential. i could see tweaking it some more, but i think it's a more solid base to go off of than 1.02. using combinations of moves/better timing etc are things that seem to FOSTER skill, the exact opposite of what people were saying. i went in with a chop/chop/chop attitude cause i figured the increased blocking would permit that better, but i got tossed on. i had to really time things a lot better and consider my stances more carefully. i was losing consistently to very good players and i consider myself a pretty good duelist, so people are already adapting.

while i'm not sure it's perfect or anything...i'm still a little dumbfounded by all the negative feedback in terms of dueling...

w1ggl3s
05-12-2002, 07:04 PM
Problem is

Dueling is a controlled room

There are no Health packs or armor slots lieing around on the ground.

In nf duels. You have until you run out of life to try and figure out a way to kill the other guy.

Thats all fine and dandy tell ya get into ctf saber/force Games.

where the guy or guys your facin can run off and grab health or armor.

While you try and slash a whiffle ball bat at them.

To be frank. I think duelest are weak. Tuffest competition ive faced so far in jk2 are the people on my ctf saber/force only servers. Fight someone toe to toe in a place where you dont know if your gonna get a fair fight is so much more challenge then where you fight in a controlled box. Where you always know your gonna get a fair fight.


I find the chaos of battle much more intense then any challenge in some duelest room. where they are always bitchin about your style of play.

1.03 Has slowed down the pace of ctf saber/force only games to the point where to be effective one must rely on one move .

Not to score points
Not to be reet
not to be considered the best player.

Just to be able to advance yourself accross the map So that you can A, Get your flag back, Or b Get the flag. Or C free up your flag carrier.

In 1.02 Not that attacking people was any easier. but the sword actualy hit the person more times and actualy did dmg.
I felt the balance in 1.02 for Ctf saber/force only was perfect. You had the quick and instant death. and you needed skill tof igure out how to stay alive.

Now ya gotta figure out how to kill the person and get by all the blocks.

in 1.03 i just run past people. no one can hit me . i cant hit them why bother.

Its not cause im less skilled. Its not cause they are so incredebly good. Its because by the time i finish him/her off the match would be over.

Duelest need to stop thinking only of themselves and that they are god's gift to jk2.

Some of us are team players.

Enjoy the challenges of the chaos of battling large numbers of people./

Enjoy the challenges of fighting a variety of styles and hit all at the same time.

Enjoy working with teammates.

There are other people playing jk2 then you Duelests.

grandmasterlee
05-12-2002, 10:41 PM
Agree, good post.

blowdpanis
05-13-2002, 01:00 AM
i can see your points regarding ctf, and my perspective was from a duelist standpoint.

i'm not entirely sure what a solution is...because i think the patch now caters to duelists (which isn't necessarily bad)...

it probably has to be one way or the other, i can't imagine raven changing saber combat for different styles of play, as that would create a whole lot of confusion.

my personal suggestion is to still make dismemberment standard. if there was a % chance u could ace someone with a lightsaber every time, raven could turn down the ammo usage a bit and the saber combat would work out more interestingly...'clean' hits would create kills or near kills in a lot of cases, and i think a lot of these problems would go away.

and how fricking cool would it be to dismember people at random?

i'd still like to hear feedback on that particular idea...

Fractal-Coffee
05-13-2002, 01:21 AM
Originally posted by w1ggl3s
Not to score points
Not to be reet
not to be considered the best player.

Just to be able to advance yourself accross the map So that you can A, Get your flag back, Or b Get the flag. Or C free up your flag carrier

You're aware that's the actual purpose of CTF, right ;)

It's the same in any other CTF game (Quake, Tribes, JK2, Paintball...)
There are a lot of different aspects, but it all boils down to just getting the flag.

The patch hasn't changed the goal. It's just changed the way you need to play in order to achieve it.

Boreas
05-13-2002, 01:43 AM
Skill or no skill, it takes 6-7 yellow hits to kill someone.

It is a LIGHT SABER ffs.

Even a nick with one of those things would ruin someone.

The blocking is too over the top, too.

w1ggl3s
05-13-2002, 03:45 AM
Yes im aware thats the reason i play ctf.

However its vurtualy impossible to destroy people along the way, without using such tactics as pull/backstab without taking up the entire game.

And its nie on impossible to kill someone using the invis absorb and rolling

bobfather
05-13-2002, 02:22 PM
The last server I dueled on was a proclaimed "no force" server.

I got on, and they had all forces enabled except for the light and dark specialty forces (aka absorb lightning grip drain...etc).

So I decided that I'd use heal when I could if I ever needed to and not use push pull or speed unless they did.

I got the occassional wacko, someone who would pull or push me every chance they got.

I've found a much more stylish move that's pretty much a one hit kill to someone is pull+medium finisher. This is what I'd use against the force whores.

Another good move for sabre throwing whores is what I call the kicklflip kablamo. Run up to them and kick them...assuming you knock them down, close in on them and throw your sabre hopefully hitting them...as soon as you get close they should be getting up so I kick them again before they're up. I got one guy by kicking him, knocking him down, sabre throwing, kicking again, knocking him down again and then using pull + medium finisher while he was on the ground. While it was a cheap series of moves, it required more skill than the constant "throw as soon as he swings" attitude the guy had.

In the old patch I was exclusively a red sabre user. Never used anything different because I never felt I needed to. Now I think I can call myself a convert to yellow and blue style. Red is just too slow for no payoff in the patch. I can still make hits connect sometimes but the blocking system is crazy with red and the hits don't instakill anymore which actually isn't a problem because drain and heal are weaker.

The way I see it, I was very skilled with red sabre in 1.02 because it was the easiest way to kill people. Now that sabre damage is lowered for non-direct hits and heal and drain are less powerful, the only thing red sabreists are is bait for sabre throw.

The DFA still kicks ass and I still use it when I need to. My favorite is at fairly close range with people who taunt too much. The yellow finisher is a stylish one hit kill for annoying people. I've decided I'll only bring out the backstabs against people who backstab me or try to. I recently wasted a pull+backstab whore by using the same combo myself and it felt satisfying to see him leave the server on account of me.

Anyway, I was good before the patch and I'm good now. It isn't uncommon for me to go undefeated on duel servers I frequent. I obviously can't suck at the game, so the only other thing that can be concluded is that all the people complaining that the game sucks now because they can't get kills must suck. If I can do it, certainly anyone else can.

Silent Wolf
05-13-2002, 03:48 PM
Hah, i cant help but laugh at wiggles who noted, i dont bother fighting them because it takes to much skill / time.

go play doom..hahhhahaha

My thoughts on all this are simple, the game takes skill AND brains now, if u dont like it...buy some leggos.

[QGA]Vertigo
05-13-2002, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by nattydred
Dueling is great!


People who dont like it are all just babies. They thought they had reached some "elite" status because they learned how to spam one move over and over again. Now they are pissed because dueling takes more skill now.

People that were good before are still good. Dueling takes more brains and tactics now than before.

Only snotty nosed little whiners who deluded themselves into thinking they were "elite" are pissed about the way dueling is now.



I scoff at them and love to see them cry! While they refuse to play the patch, the rest of us are enjoying it.

I hope the Devs ignore their BS.
.

Oh COME ON....

This... is genuine Bull****.

Why is it that you think that everyone who likes 1.02 more than 1.03 is a kick or DFA whore ?

There are PLENTY of other reasons why lots of people don't like v1.03....

:rolleyes:

Maugan
05-13-2002, 06:58 PM
While the strong stance may have been overpowered before, I think they went too far with it. It seems nearly worthless now. The increased defense everyone has combined with the lower damage and speed make strong stance a poor choice. Before, you could sacrifice getting 20 hits like light stance, in favor of one big, well timed hit.

The way it is now, strong stance is a waste unless they fell down and you forgot how to do backwards special moves for some reason.

Why can't there be some forward stab special moves that have the same effectivness as the backwards stabs? I am so sick of people chasing me around with their ass.