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View Full Version : The answer to all saber fights? What do Jedi see?


turner
05-12-2002, 12:25 PM
Semi-slow motion with visual "precognition".

Yes, that's right.

You're using the force, right? (Ok, if just any ole person picks up a dropped saber, then, no. This is also why some dude with a lightsaber will never win against Jedi unless the Jedi wants it.)

So instead of just hacking around, which many people seem to be complaining about, how about an option for this:

Semi-slow motion - you're thinking fast... you're seeing slow. You know, bullet time type thing.

The catch is this: the better you are, the further "ahead" of your opponent you can "see" -

Suppose you're about to be shot at by some guy with a blaster. Your vision goes to slow-mo precognition; you see a visual "target" area where you're going to be receiving some hot beam. So, being as fast as you are (seeing ahead), you move your saber to about that position, the force takes over, "pulls" your light beam exactly into position, and the shot is blocked. If a bunch of people are shooting at you, these "target areas" differ in hue, perhaps from a dull yellow to red hot, based on the order in which they're going to hit.

Let's say you're up against some stormtrooper who thinks he's crafty and picked up a lightsaber -

Well, you go to slow-mo vision again, and can see where his swing is going based on a transparent "swing arc" type thing which appears based on the type of attack you're about to experience... You now know where to block. And since you're WAY faster in this case, you can command your characther to block, then attack... Think really long motion trails.

Against other Jedi, well, you may not get as strong a precognition.

I've been thinking for quite a while that the force, if you REALLY want the player to feel in control, needs visual cues... As attacks change in real-time, where appropriate, new visualizations fade in while old ones fade out.

What does a Jedi see?

This type of system would possibly need a new range of blocking moves.

I mean, watching your guy blocking blaster fire is very cool, but actually doing it would be great.

BlackDove
05-12-2002, 12:27 PM
No go, can't be done...it was discussed before

turner
05-12-2002, 12:29 PM
Why not?

I'd like to read those threads if you have any links.

BTW, yes, it can be done. Maybe not with this engine, but it can be done.

Originally posted by =SSC=Kal-El
No go, can't be done...it was discussed before

BlackDove
05-12-2002, 12:30 PM
Ok, then you go write a new game, m'kay?

-Kztzphl
05-12-2002, 12:34 PM
I'd like to have keys for attacks and defend, to block and parry.
thats what would be nice, and that would be skill. :rolleyes:

BlackDove
05-12-2002, 12:38 PM
Hence my message above...

GSA_Mitth_
05-12-2002, 12:44 PM
slow-mo in MP ???

lol you know how much lag that produces ???
and imagine how powerfull your pc has to be to calculate it all ...

you'll need a 1Ghz on low reso for that kind of action ... maybe in the far future when we all have a 60Ghz pc and a 1Gig downloadcapacity.

good idea, but not going to work now ...

BlackDove
05-12-2002, 12:45 PM
Told ya...

starbucks
05-12-2002, 12:56 PM
who cares about now? Have some vision. jeez. cant be done. if everyone thought like that we wouldnt be playing with "sabers" on the "internet" at all. I think you guys need some jedi precog yourselves. its not that far away. look at max payne, integrate next gen internet, and voila! Don't drink the hater-aid gentlemen.

Kairon
05-12-2002, 01:06 PM
Maybe I misunderstood something here, but slow motion in multiplayer? Like using Speed in single player, or like the slo-mo in Max payne?

The problem with that in multiplayer, is that you are not alone... You can't slow yourself down, without slowing everything else down as well.

turner
05-12-2002, 01:12 PM
I wasn't talking about JKII.

So, those threads, then?

Originally posted by =SSC=Kal-El
Ok, then you go write a new game, m'kay?

BlackDove
05-12-2002, 01:13 PM
Originally posted by starbucks
who cares about now? Have some vision. jeez. cant be done. if everyone thought like that we wouldnt be playing with "sabers" on the "internet" at all. I think you guys need some jedi precog yourselves. its not that far away. look at max payne, integrate next gen internet, and voila! Don't drink the hater-aid gentlemen.

It can't be done...that doesnt mean it wont be doable later, but IT CANT BE DONE NOW...read the damn tense...

Originally posted by Kairon
Maybe I misunderstood something here, but slow motion in multiplayer? Like using Speed in single player, or like the slo-mo in Max payne?

The problem with that in multiplayer, is that you are not alone... You can't slow yourself down, without slowing everything else down as well.

Yep, otherwise it's two paralel games (you got slow, they got fast, aint mixin) ;)

BlackDove
05-12-2002, 01:16 PM
Originally posted by turner
I wasn't talking about JKII.

So, those threads, then?



Yes you were talking about JK2 because you posted it on a JK2 forum...maybe you need some thicker glasses though.....

Btw, I'm not you fricking bus boy, go find the damn threads yourself. If you werent so caught up in what you have to say, you would go find a recent thread talking about this...

turner
05-12-2002, 01:17 PM
You're hired.

For those of you who think it can't be done - working at McDonald's isn't so bad, plus they've got great fries.

"You can't do it" = "I can't do it"

Originally posted by starbucks
who cares about now? Have some vision. jeez. cant be done. if everyone thought like that we wouldnt be playing with "sabers" on the "internet" at all. I think you guys need some jedi precog yourselves. its not that far away. look at max payne, integrate next gen internet, and voila! Don't drink the hater-aid gentlemen.

turner
05-12-2002, 01:19 PM
Taking the easy way out, I see.

Generally the way the weak minded work. Path of least resistance and all.

Ah, ye who is never wrong. Back when I was 18 I knew everything too. I've forgotten so much since then.

And yes, you are my bus boy.

Bye now.

Originally posted by =SSC=Kal-El


Yes you were talking about JK2 because you posted it on a JK2 forum...maybe you need some thicker glasses though.....

Btw, I'm not you fricking bus boy, go find the damn threads yourself. If you werent so caught up in what you have to say, you would go find a recent thread talking about this...

BlackDove
05-12-2002, 01:19 PM
:rolleyes:

*Operation, grasping at straws*

Originally posted by turner
And yes, you are my bus boy.

And with that sentence you really show how stupid you are...

turner
05-12-2002, 01:26 PM
Yeah, it's ok. Open mindedness is what gives me a distinct advantage over people like you. Who do you think a game company would hire, a pasty whiner like yourself whose mind is shut?

It's refreshing. Luckily it's a matter of natural ability and maturity, so I really don't think I have much to worry about.

Now why not run over to Scripps and build yourself a tree fort?

Oh, and stop by Donberto's and grab me a carne asada burrito. And hurry it up.

Originally posted by =SSC=Kal-El
:rolleyes:

*Operation, grasping at straws*



And with that sentence you really show how stupid you are...

BlackDove
05-12-2002, 01:33 PM
Originally posted by turner
Yeah, it's ok. Open mindedness is what gives me a distinct advantage over people like you. Who do you think a game company would hire, a pasty whiner like yourself whose mind is shut?

No, who they would hire, would be someone who can think realistically, not someone who dreams about things that arent accomplishable at the moment.


It's refreshing. Luckily it's a matter of natural ability and maturity, so I really don't think I have much to worry about.

Yes, the maturity of your vast imagination that does no-one nothing good, and only complexes and wastes space here on this forum.


Now why not run over to Scripps and build yourself a tree fort?

Oh, and stop by Donberto's and grab me a carne asada burrito. And hurry it up.

I don't even know what those things mean, which really point on what you are since you do know what they mean...

turner
05-12-2002, 01:39 PM
Hey - I've read some of your other posts just to see if I was on track or not.

I am.

Now, excuse me, I have to go determine how to make your posts invisible to me.

Originally posted by =SSC=Kal-El


No, who they would hire, would be someone who can think realistically, not someone who dreams about things that arent accomplishable at the moment.



Yes, the maturity of your vast imagination that does no-one nothing good, and only complexes and wastes space here on this forum.



I don't even know what those things mean, which really point on what you are since you do know what they mean...

The Rocket Man
05-12-2002, 02:02 PM
Hmm - Quite a nice post to read.

But =SSC=Kal-El (if that IS your real name), you are the bus boy.

Arrghman
05-12-2002, 02:10 PM
Originally posted by Kairon
Maybe I misunderstood something here, but slow motion in multiplayer? Like using Speed in single player, or like the slo-mo in Max payne?

The problem with that in multiplayer, is that you are not alone... You can't slow yourself down, without slowing everything else down as well.

as kairon pointed out, its not an issue of current technology....

revertto1.2
05-12-2002, 02:24 PM
=SSC=Kal-El why dont u go suck some co ck, u may learn a thing or 2.



REVERT TO 1.02 !!

Zek
05-12-2002, 03:01 PM
Uh... Someone explain to me how having slow-mo with only one person and not everyone else would work. The only way to do it would be to actually make them move slower, which would obviously give others the advantage. You can't have improved speed in comparison to everyone else(like in singleplayer) without slowing them down as well. It's simply not possible until there are wires going to your brain that actually do give you enhanced reaction times. Or that slow down your perception of time while your character is sped up to make it seem to you as if everyone else is slowing down.

turner
05-12-2002, 04:31 PM
What I'm picturing is essentially a 1 v 1 fight where you are both in slow mo, a la bullet time - where there may be no actual speed advantage, you will see the other's moves via the "force vision overlay" or whatever you like to call it a little sooner maybe - this simulates the enhanced reaction times, like in Max Payne or the Matrix or whatever.

Now, in a MP game, it's a different basket of bricks.... indeed, you can't have people moving at different paces in real time.

Hey, time for some creativity. For now, saber fights like this in singleplayer or 1 v 1 are certainly possible.

Andrew

Originally posted by Zek
Uh... Someone explain to me how having slow-mo with only one person and not everyone else would work. The only way to do it would be to actually make them move slower, which would obviously give others the advantage. You can't have improved speed in comparison to everyone else(like in singleplayer) without slowing them down as well. It's simply not possible until there are wires going to your brain that actually do give you enhanced reaction times. Or that slow down your perception of time while your character is sped up to make it seem to you as if everyone else is slowing down.

The Truthful Liar
05-12-2002, 04:39 PM
Nice idea.

Nope, don't have much else to say - I'm pretty open today :)

Kairon
05-12-2002, 04:59 PM
"Hey, time for some creativity. For now, saber fights like this in singleplayer or 1 v 1 are certainly possible. "

Of course its possible in single player.. its allready there. Try using Force Speed :)

But in multiplayer.. no.. not even 1 on 1. It is of course possible to slow everyone down, but really, what would be the point?

If it would allow me to take 30 seconds to carefully aim my lightsaber against an unguarded part of my opponents body, wouldn't my opponent still have those same 30 seconds to recognize what I am trying to do, and carefully move out of the way?

All we would have would be regular fights in slow motion, wich IMO sounds extremely boring...

BlackDove
05-12-2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by turner
Hey - I've read some of your other posts just to see if I was on track or not.

I am.

Now, excuse me, I have to go determine how to make your posts invisible to me.



Can't wait...Just please hurry up with it, so I don't have to read posts of you referenced to me since they are below the average standard to be considered a post.....

Originally posted by The Rocket Man
Hmm - Quite a nice post to read.

But =SSC=Kal-El (if that IS your real name), you are the bus boy.

Yes that feels good coming from a man who has 1 post, and named himself after an Elton John song :rolleyes:...What's wrong, can't find anything good to name yourself today with? And what kind of a dope you must be to think that =SSC=Kal-El is my name...*sigh*

Originally posted by revertto1.2
=SSC=Kal-El why dont u go suck some co ck, u may learn a thing or 2.



REVERT TO 1.02 !!

Right, given that you are this close from being banned, if you already arent...

Originally posted by Arrghman


as kairon pointed out, its not an issue of current technology....

I know, but it would be a different game because you would have to write a bunch of new stuff for JK2 (don't get sidetracked, we ARE talking about JK2 here, and if we aren't, go post on some other forum), so it's not doable...unless you know how to code the engine, and make it your own from scratch.....

turner
05-12-2002, 08:05 PM
I'm thinking along the lines of not total slow motion, but pretty slow compared to normal speed, maybe 1/3...

Anyway, I guess I'm imagining it like this (kind of)... keep in mind 1/3 or 1/2 full speed...

We meet and one or both of us draw sabers...I want to take an overhead chop at you - so I hit key "w" or whatever. Before my blow is delivered, assuming you are jedi, of course, you see an overhead arc from my sabre - keep in mind this is only perhaps 1 second before my swing occurs. You can move out of the way (probably needing force speed here) or block overhead.

As you decide to move sideways, you also hit a key which initiates a crosswise slash - I see your "ghost" move to the side, and a dim lightsaber arc, which I have to block, and do. I decide to follow my block with a diagonal slash, but you've already hit the key to do a slash of your own, feeling I won't be fast enough - and you're right, because my block slows me down a little, since you're not facing me straight-on, and you're already chopping, so off goes my arm.

This melee may take as little real-time as 5 seconds. But if both sides are careful, hey, it may take a minute or so - still a lot shorter than most saber fights in the movies I think.

The caveat here is that if you do too many successive moves, you might end up just swinging away like a moron while your opponent moves behind you (being able to see a bunch of your swings where they will take place ahead of time) and burns you a new one.

Now, assuming you hit say 5 combos, and your guy is there doing them - at any time you can change the next move not yet done, at a cost of a little speed.

So it's a tradeoff - you probably have to take a little risk to gain an advantage. Maybe a really hard swing will take a fraction of a second longer to execute, but will slow your opponent (put him behind your "force vision) by three fractions of a second.

Hey, I dunno.

Originally posted by Kairon
"Hey, time for some creativity. For now, saber fights like this in singleplayer or 1 v 1 are certainly possible. "

Of course its possible in single player.. its allready there. Try using Force Speed :)

But in multiplayer.. no.. not even 1 on 1. It is of course possible to slow everyone down, but really, what would be the point?

If it would allow me to take 30 seconds to carefully aim my lightsaber against an unguarded part of my opponents body, wouldn't my opponent still have those same 30 seconds to recognize what I am trying to do, and carefully move out of the way?

All we would have would be regular fights in slow motion, wich IMO sounds extremely boring...

Jasta
05-12-2002, 08:23 PM
You guys are funny! I like how worked up everyone gets over a discussion whether or not an idea will work. I thought the name calling was below the belt and unnecessary, but so was the name ripping. Come on man, you are grasping at insults when you say someones name is stupid. So you sat there at your comp thinking about your name longer... whoopee!
I think that the bullet time idea has potential. So many things in history emphasize how dreamers accomplish things (ie...Columbus, Wright Brothers, the list goes on.) Theres no point in saying without a doubt things won't work.

Turtleboy25th
05-12-2002, 09:28 PM
Ok this is how I see it.I understand what ur idea is, and in single player it could possible to pull off.Sure u might need a new engine and powerful pc but we wont go into that. But in multi player it just cant work the way u hav explained it. Because if i press a button to attack and on ur screen u see an attack arc just b4 i pull off the move, that means there will hav to be a delay
from the moment i press the attack button to when i pull off the move.So it will always seem like there is a big lag which will slow down fights and will totally destroy your idea of fast,controlled battles.

and its been said a thousand times already but u cant slow down one person but not the others in multiplayer.We all know that cant be done.Well not now anyway.

And I will probably get a post from turner sayin how closed minded I am.But I also think it is abit ignorant that you think we are closed minded just because we say your idea wont work.Yes there have been many "crazy" ideas which turned out to be great.But there have also been more ideas that dont work.

I think this idea could work for single player but for multi player I cant see any way of it working.But I am just talkin about the idea of attack arcs.I think maybe simplifyin the idea could hav possibilities.For example, if you are looking at someone attacking with a lightsaber head on, it is very hard to read where the attack is actually goin to hit. So maybe (for example) arrows could be added to show what side of ur character is goin to be hit then you press the appropriate direction to block with ur saber.

The "hit indicator" would come up as soon as the opponent makes the attack so you will have to react very quickly.But I think that is the whole point.Just because you are meant to be a jedi doesnt mean you should have everythin handed to u on a plate.It would require alot of practice and fast reactions to become very good.And I believe that is wat games are about, the person who puts in the most effort should be rewarded.

Anyways I'll get off my soapbox now.That is my view and I'll stand by it.So attack me if ya want.I await your reply. :smirk2:

JaledDur
05-12-2002, 09:48 PM
I think what he's getting at is that evgeryone in the game is at half speed, not just YOU. That works, since everyone is still in the same time frame, it just gives enough time for the computer to render the lines of attack and for you to react to them. It would be pretty cool, but it might get old after a while. I think the best way to encorporate something like this would be to have it as a modification to duel mode in FFA or as a server variable.

Phr00t
05-12-2002, 10:50 PM
IDEA!

To incorperate this into Multiplayer, we have to change our POV on things... Instead of slowing TIME down on the server, why cant we slow down the PLAYERS?

Imagine this... normal things going on in the background, two people start a fight... their attacks put them into slow motion with real time around them...

It wouldn't have to slow down everyone and it would be an interesting way to play...

And yes, you can easily slow down people with our current technology. Ever heard of timescale?

TheDarkJedi
05-12-2002, 11:29 PM
yea i was thinkin about this a while back. u could have a new type of private duels in ffa where u both go into slow-mo and u gotta manually parry and block and attack with different buttons. i think its a cool idea...now if someone can just make it a reality.

starbucks
05-13-2002, 03:25 AM
Imagine this... normal things going on in the background, two people start a fight... their attacks put them into slow motion with real time around them...

now we are talkin! duel Challenges could put two competitors in 1/3 slow mo for a brief burst of action, as gun battles blaze in the background in realtime.

I like the hit arrow warning, keeping it simple might work( a back warning like spidersense, but using the force would be useful.).

In streetfighter you can counter someones moves by seeing what combo they are doing visually and coming up with a breaker move. Why not here? a right slash telegraphed would lead to a counter left block, or you get hit!

As I said before, it may not even be possible now, but why not think of solutions instead of problems? The world would be a better place, and so would this forum.