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View Full Version : A better question: WHY did they change ANYTHING?


Lep
05-12-2002, 08:40 PM
JKII was one of my favorite games. I'm sure the single player has been improved by the new 1.03 patch, but tell me one thing:

Why did they have to change multiplayer in this patch? There were no complaints. It was going perfectly, in my opinion, and I was having a blast. I would play on saber only CTF servers for a couple of hours and have nothing but fun, even if I was getting my ass kicked by a more skilled player.

This is one of the few games in YEARS which has captured my attention. And guess what? It went all down the drain because some coders at Lucas Arts decided they liked it better another way. Obviously many people here don't like the way it turned out. All I hear on the servers are complaints.

There was a perfect balance before: on weapon servers you could use light saber or weapon, with the obvious downside of having a sword versus an automatic gun. There were no flaws, in my opinion.

To come out a winner in a light saber battle it took multiple moves, and two skilled players going at it would have to try everything in the book. Not the case anymore.

Point is: no one had a problem with the way it was. Why change it? Who decided that was a good idea? I'll tell you what, if something isn't changed, I will take this back to the store. It's as simple as that. I don't enjoy the game anymore, at all.

I went on to one of my favorite servers and found myself "back stabbed" 10 times in a row. I'm sure there are ways around it, but no one cares. Especially when you can get to the top of the list simply by turning on absorb, running, and doing that move over and over again.

I don't like ANY new changes. None of them. I liked being able to SEE absorb, I liked being able to KICK people in the face. I was killed plenty of times by kicks, I have been owned by plenty of players with absorb.

Where was the problem? I can tell you where it IS now. It's apparently with the multiplayer design team at LucasArts. Please make changes, quickly.

HughFairgrove
05-12-2002, 08:45 PM
He has a point.

Lord Sokar
05-12-2002, 08:47 PM
You see, after the game came out. People who were to dumb to move out of the way of someone doing a DFA jump complained, LOUDLY. There weren't that many, but they were loud.

So, in reponse, RAVEN launched operation 'SAVE NOOB'. They automated the blocking to about 90% of hits, they made backstab in blue stance less restricted and jacked up the kill on the move to about 100hp.

You can quickly identify these players by looking for the keywords 'stop whining about 1.03!!!!!'.

Now we have 10 million people playing... BACKWARDS!

Welcome to the new JK2!

Rejoice nOObs, this patch is for you!

Swordless
05-12-2002, 08:48 PM
well many people did complain about DFA. i didnt care. a kill is a kill. i personally dont dislike the patch. its fine in my eyes.

AV_JC_Frost
05-12-2002, 08:49 PM
I do agree with you. There are many, many changes that didn't need to have been made. (split infinitve! my english teacher would kill me ;) ) But we have to remember that it IS their game, and it is theirs to tweak. They may have had a more far-reaching vision for this patch than what actually came out, and could be working on 1.04 as we speak. We need to stop focusing on just this patch and focus on the potential, this will not be the last patch to the JKII game. While it can and is a bit more difficult, and even annoying at times, it isn't horribly bad. The best we can do right now is sit down and wait to see what the designers will do. Patience, they will listen to the community's voice and act upon it.

Spider AL
05-12-2002, 09:03 PM
Please make changes, quickly.

Yes, please do Raven. :)

The best we can do right now is sit down and wait to see what the designers will do. Patience, they will listen to the community's voice and act upon it.

Bear in mind though, that the more we discuss what we want from the next patch, the more likely we are to get it. That's one thing we've learned from the whining lot.

Discuss! :D

Darkprophet
05-12-2002, 09:08 PM
I agree whole heartedly, the only thing I liked about the patch was the icons, even that could have been clearer.

Blamer
05-12-2002, 09:20 PM
Yeah, my favorite parts of 1.02 were the lightsabers passing through each other with regularity, dying and flying 20 meters because I tapped a saber buried in the ground from DFA, using Heal to recover from anything but a strong hit, and the strong stance jousting that was all about trying to catch someone on the tip of your saber at the very end of the swing. Oh, and since the blocking was basically completely random instead of a reliable and predictable system, no one ever dared get within saber range unless they wanted to tap someone with their jousting moves, and when you did block it was like a random "get out of jail free" card instead of part of your strategy.

"To come out a winner in a light saber battle it took multiple moves, and two skilled players going at it would have to try everything in the book. Not the case anymore. "

What a joke, by "multiple moves" you must mean DFA, medium finisher, strong stance chop and strong stance sideswipe. That's all I ever had to use to come out the winner in a 1.02 fight. Okay, once in a while I used the lunge or a medium swing for flavor, but it put myself at a disadvantage. If anything, that first sentence is a description of a 1.03 duel, no other game has forced me to click that middle mouse button so much since the patch came out.

"I liked being able to SEE absorb"

So you could just backpedal/backroll until it came off then drain/lightning/grip/pull/push/whatever with impunity...they reverted Absorb to the way it was back in JK1, I don't remember anyone complaining back then. Also, Absorb still produces a pretty distinctive sound when it's on.

Kicking is actually easier in the new version once you get used to it, because with the first jump you can set up for the kick from a distance. If someone is crouching, use side kicks or just DFA him.

Yes, I think there are real problems with the new patch. I don't see how they messed up the guns/saber balance, the sabers do less damage but the attacks that bypass saber blocking, repeater and flak secondary, take huge amounts of ammo now.

I would say they need to increase saber damage overall, maybe 40/60/80 for each of the stances; since light stance has the shortest swings it should be the easiest to do max damage with in each swing. Since blocking is an important part of the game now, and strong now takes the role of also being the block-breaker stance, 80 max damage is fine. Hell, maybe make the damage go 50/70/80 and make medium better at breaking a light stance block.

The gun nerfs need to be toned down (i.e. only 16 for repeater secondary) to make the attacks viable without going back to the total spam of 1.02.

I think the pull/backswing combo is a big problem, I'll admit that, but only because it WASN'T changed from 1.02.

Demise_SOK
05-12-2002, 09:30 PM
I agree with some of your points; I like absorb being invis; I like the icons; I like the heal/drain downgrade and I like the changes to DFA (that being, you cannot contort in midflight now nor take damage running over a burried blade- strangely, I killed someone who ran over my sunk DFA blade today though). But, otherwise this patch is a buch of crap.

Zek
05-12-2002, 09:34 PM
Guys, they made the changes because a LOT of players requested them. But not like the way you request taking them back; these players talked about inbalances in an informed and mature manner, so Raven listened to them. These players were the majority(which you aren't in this issue), and most of them were NOT newbies. I doubt Raven will go back to 1.02 or take back many of the changes because 95% of the people who support it can't say so without filling the post with obscenities and insults towards Raven and other players. Grow up, and maybe you'll get what you want.

Spider AL
05-12-2002, 09:42 PM
Blamer, you seem very tense. A lot of sarcasm... Not very adult, IMO. Not that it'll have any effect on you, of course. Just mentioning it. :)

What a joke, by "multiple moves" you must mean DFA, medium finisher, strong stance chop and strong stance sideswipe. That's all I ever had to use to come out the winner in a 1.02 fight.

And now, in 1.03, it's the pull/backswing. That's ALL. In NF battles however, sabre throw rules. If you believe that 1.03 has added any intricate sabre combat, you're not correct. The new sabre combat is only good in a 1 on 1 duel. If that's all you play, then good luck to you! But really, don't project your satisfaction with the patch onto the FFA and CTF players like myself and WD_Rage, who miss something that was intrinsic to the old 1.02... speed. The speed of the game was phenominal! It was breathtaking, exhilerating. The only way we can come close to that old speed in FFA now, is with the pull/backswing combo, and some very tricky ammo-management. All the fun has gone from my JO experience, and I'll do everything within my limited power to try to return the pace and fluidity to the game modes I love.

As for your comments about Drain/lightning etc... I'm a lightsider. I never play anything but light side. Now, even I admit that the dark side has been nerfed, while the improvements to absorb put us at a distinct advantage. That isn't right.

don't see how they messed up the guns/saber balance, the sabers do less damage but the attacks that bypass saber blocking, repeater and flak secondary, take huge amounts of ammo now.

The reason the balance is now ruined, is that before the patch, you could choose to use the sabre to kill someone, or use a gun. Now, you have as little as four shots per weapon to kill someone, and if you fail... THEN you're forced to use the sabre, or forced to run away and find ammunition. But the sabre's slow! And what if you don't have time to duel someone in a FFA? No, the balance is terrible now, all choice has been taken away, and turned into a monotonous shoot-shoot-shoot-shoot, pull, backswing, pull, backswing affair. And in CTF, as WD_Rage will attest, defending is tougher, attacking is a matter of judicious absorb and the balance there too, is gone.

All pace is gone. I used to kill ten-fifteen people a minute in the fast maps, mostly using my sabre. After the patch, I'm lucky to get five kills a minute. No pace, no excitement, only people running around backwards and using their bryar pistols a lot. Grah.

Oh well, there's my rant. My full opinions can be found in the "Post-patch: yes, I feel cheap" thread.

Ferox
05-12-2002, 10:00 PM
sokar... the dfa move was unstopable even if you dodged it or jumped out of the way... many times i was clearly out of the way of the landing zone yet i still died, made no sense.


now after the patch i can attack them in mid flight and not have to worry about having no chance and dieing instantly always.


but i never complained about it much, infact i never got into the forums till after 1.3 mostly.. i would just NOT stand still and would always be circling and on the move so they couldnt dfa... it got them so pissed and i had a good laugh.


thats how i do it now adays with with the backstab.. although its tough because i enjoy getting in close and now you cant afford to.

w1ggl3s
05-12-2002, 11:18 PM
First of Dfa Was Far from un stopable.

Infact i got killed more times DFAing Intelligent players then I did using a straight up broad swing.

There is a moment in 1.02 where dfa leaves the guy totaly open.

he can be pulled. Hit, kicked.

-------------------

Absorb is way to pwrfull

Invis absorb so over imbalances the game its not even funny.

Then to give the game an almost impenetrable defense.

Fast action chaotic games like saber/force only ctf goes right out the drain.

If you took backstab out. A player with absorb rolling around the map would never die.

The only way is to

A: get hella lucky with a pull and hope u kill him in one shot.
B: get hella lucky with a dfa and hope it dont get blocked
C: Get hella lucky with normal hit.
d: crowd him into a corner with all your buddies and turn around and spam backstab.


Seriously this 1.03 patch has slowed the tempo down of ctf games to a boring level. You can take so many chances now and not get burned its rediculas.

Do i like some things about 1.03?

Ya the ping pong from saber hits is gone.. No more baseball home runs from getting tapped by a saber.

The extra offensive moves are sweet.

To much saber collission.

Come on guys this isnt rl. we cant have everything perfect .

This is the internet, with thousands of variables we cant even see going on, not to mention various lag components.

most of the well timed shots i have in 1.03 glance harmlessly off.

I think Light/med/heavy should be 70/80/100

Light gets blocked a bit more then med

Med gets blocked a bit less then light and has a slight chance of stunning the aponent.

heavy Often stuns the oponent and can destroy the enemie in a big hit.

These weapons are weak now.

Im sorry but if a saber hit me. Ied be running like a mad man for the nearest bacta tank.

I think saber dmg should be huge. Being able to stun someone with a heavy hit should last long enough to get your combo off atleast.


Backing up should be slowed down considerably

Why game makers have not figured this out or balanced this Eons ago ill never figure out

Have you ever tried to walk backwards at the same speed of walking forwards? its un confertable. Ya cant see anything.


Rolling should take Force pwr.

Rolling should be used as Set ups. And for a quick get away .

Not roll around the map.

Absorb combined with roll ='s Inpenetrable defense.. only the highest speed can keep up with a good roller.


Absorb needs to either

a: Cost 2 times as much
B; when its on the mana cost should be much much greater.
c: should be taken off invis.

There are no down sides to absorb.

Easy recharge time.
Invis so players mistakenly give you mana.
Slow, and low pulse cost.

I meen come on cant anyone get a clue about that?

Heal/drain needs to be un nerfed

and whatever they did to Grip please change it back to normal.

Grip/drain is as valid as Absorb/forcepull

or absorb/heal

Or absorb/protect
or absorb/push

or absorb/invis
or absorb /speed

I hate it when players bitch to other players about how lame grip tactics are.

its a surprise attack Your supposed to die.

People cant stand Dieing/losing

SO they gotta complain tell they get there way.

This game for Ctf saber/force players has been slowed down so much it pains me to even log on.

1.02 is fast action, and paced.. NO ROOM FOR ERROR

You eff up? u pay the price.

I was chuckling to myself i got caught and some guy pulled me down and 30 guys hit me. Of course i died.

HAd that been 1.03?

I woulda lived, blocked them all, turned on absorb, used all the mana they gave me to heal myself back to full life, clicked the invis button and grabbed a buncha armor, ran to the flag grabbed it and run back to my base and turn it in.

You think 1.03 is tuff?

Go back and play 1.02. There was and never will be room for error.

I hope 1.04 is better balanced for us ctf saber/force only players.. I think ive come up with some viable solutions.

Sabers need to hit for more damage.. ANd they need to make the enemy pay. I dont like to play with my oponent. I like to kill or Die.. No room for mess ups.

Absorb needs to be nerfed (this comming from someone who has used absorb to live more often then not) it is a major imbalance to the game in ctf/saber/force only games.

Saber blocking and connection needs to be toned down alot.

Jump needs to be an option for those of us who tire of hitting jump twice.

My personal preference is to have dfa returned to its former way.

But the hit box and residual hit after the move is over, lessoned.

NOT THE PWR OF THE MAIN HIT

but that nasty hit u get if you time it wrong.

and back stab should be like the light backstab.

one oponent is effected.

I DO however think that backstab should be a Killer.

Do not nerf the backstab damage

Just take away the twirl. So that you have one hit, on one guy at one time. The guy your taking out.

This will leave the backstabber Open for attack. and people around him can not worry about getting hit from random sabers.

Dfa/backstab/themed, and light stance specials Should have no defense.

People should be able to easy hit them when they are doing those moves.

Walking backwards needs to be seriously Slowed down

rolling needs to take mana. Just like Jump.

Wether you add this to neutral pwrs or just give it a standard one bar of mana usage for all people

drain needs to take less of a mana hit.

Lighting needs to do more damage

Grip needs to be returned to its original thing( i think alot of grippers complained about that)

there are some of my ideas for 1.04

Wiggles

Bl4de
05-13-2002, 12:37 AM
Originally posted by Lord Sokar
You see, after the game came out. People who were to dumb to move out of the way of someone doing a DFA jump complained, LOUDLY. There weren't that many, but they were loud.

So, in reponse, RAVEN launched operation 'SAVE NOOB'. They automated the blocking to about 90% of hits, they made backstab in blue stance less restricted and jacked up the kill on the move to about 100hp.

You can quickly identify these players by looking for the keywords 'stop whining about 1.03!!!!!'.

Now we have 10 million people playing... BACKWARDS!

Welcome to the new JK2!

Rejoice nOObs, this patch is for you!

Oh just shut the hell up. Post something constructful not childish nosense.

People who complain about 1.03, complain simply because they can't DFA 24/7, can't heal 24/7, and can't drain 24/7. That is sad yet true, reason why you all complain. You are so used to having 1 second matches against people, you just can't STAND having to fight a longer match. The other leading cause of all these crybabies is that they are too lazy to get good with the new patch.

You know, if all of you would stop complaing, droning mindlessly, saying the same damn arguement OVER and OVER again, as if we hadn't heard it enough, and spent your time PRACTICING not WHINING, you'd be as good as you were before, but no. Instead you must ruin these forums with your repetetive complaints. "Oh this patch sucks" with no real arguement to back it up. "Oh the saber is weaker" WHAT FUN IS A MATCH WHEN IT ENDS IN A FEW SECONDS!? "The patch ruins drain" well duh people, drain was way to over powered and you got used to it, now that it's changed it's more balanced, and you hate it because you can't play like you did before.

I love the patch, despite all the backslash spammers, I love it because I took the time to appreciate what Raven does, and I took the time to practice and get my skill back (which takes about a day). If you hate the patch, DON'T INSTALL IT, or simply go make your own patch. You seem to be criticizing Raven so much on such a horrible job they did. How about you go make your OWN patch and see how YOU do? Oh that's right you can't. You only know how to criticize not do things yourself. So until you can patch such a great game yourselves, howabout you go cry to your mothers, because we don't wanna hear about who took your bottles.

Oh yeah, whoever I quoted, um, yeah DFA whiners had something to whine about, nothing you can do against them. 1.03 whiners have nothing to be whining about. Besides, I think 1.03 whiners, whine a tad bit louder than DFA whiners did. Never in my life have I seen half of a community go completely STUPID over night because of a patch. I hope one day you realize how dumb you look in the eyes of others.

the3vil1
05-13-2002, 01:09 AM
yuh all u 1.03 whining bitches stfu. :mob:

Boreas
05-13-2002, 01:50 AM
We're not saying 1.02 was perfect, we are saying it was BETTER.

Atleast for anything other than dueling.

Hopefully raven will release a patch that will cater for both sides, so don't take offence that people are complaining, they just want Raven to hear us and and rectify the patch.

Boreas
05-13-2002, 01:53 AM
Also, people aren't complaining because they can't spam moves. If they were, they would say "I don't like 1.03 because I can't spam DFA", but they are saying they don't like OTHER THINGS.

Please, do not ASSUME they dislike 1.03 because of the lack of DFA. Anyway, the DFA spammers can just spam backstab now so they won't be complaining.

Lep
05-13-2002, 02:29 AM
When I said I didn't like any of the new changes I meant the most prevalent ones that impaired gameplay entirely.

For instance, I don't remember hearing anyone complain about drain and the like. There was a way to counter act everything in the game. What was wrong with seeing absorb? It was easier because I knew when not to use force on him, correct. Why should it be in? You can see me drain. I'm a dark side user, do I complain about it? No, I don't.

I have a friend who uses the light side only, and is one of the better players I've seen in JKII. People are always marvelling over how he's kicking their asses. He overcame what everyone else apparently bitched about (dark side force powers).

1 second battles? I have much longer battles with people of skill, or lets say, I HAD much longer battles. Now the battles are drawn out, true, but ALL seemingly end with that backwards stab. It's retarded.

And no, I don't want to do that move. I'm not interested in it.

You talk about there not being multiple moves to use in battles in 1.02. Let's see, I've seen skilled players use every saber stance there is and still be good. SO you take slow swings, they learn how to take several fast swings. Big deal. There are different styles. Some people used speed and absorb, some people used drain and pulls.

Everything in the game worked out WELL, that is my point in all of this.

What NEEDED to be changed? Nothing!

I've been drained, I had to avoid using force combat until I got some force back. Big deal. I've been kicked to death, I learned how to avoid it. Big deal. I could go on...

It's just pointless things like that that I don't understand.

The only people I saw on a server that weren't complaining today were the people using the new, famed backward stab. Coincidence? I doubt it.

HandsomeDan
05-13-2002, 03:29 AM
Originally posted by Lord Sokar
You see, after the game came out. People who were to dumb to move out of the way of someone doing a DFA jump complained, LOUDLY. There weren't that many, but they were loud.

So, in reponse, RAVEN launched operation 'SAVE NOOB'. They automated the blocking to about 90% of hits, they made backstab in blue stance less restricted and jacked up the kill on the move to about 100hp.

You can quickly identify these players by looking for the keywords 'stop whining about 1.03!!!!!'.

Now we have 10 million people playing... BACKWARDS!

Welcome to the new JK2!

Rejoice nOObs, this patch is for you!

Game makers can't make games that are elitist, they have to appeal to everyone, as inexperienced at gaming as they might be. Personally, I think the only thing wrong with the game now is the new one hit wonder move. The blocking really isn't that bad, if you think about it jedi should be able to block alot of the attacks. Don't lose hope, this is the first patch, and the game hasn't even been out that long. Be greatful that Raven cares.

[OSF]Zurk
05-13-2002, 01:05 PM
Right on, Dan. I think Raven wants a game that everybody can get into and have fun with so that, honestly, they can make a buck and build more games. They also want a balanced game that plays well so they patch. Personally, I hope this patch brings in a whole bunch of new players to the game. More people make for more servers, more variety, and just more of everything. After all, we're talking about a game that's been out for a grand total of 2 or 3 months. There's really no way to please everybody, so the developers are going to tweak the game to the point where they feel it's balanced. Give it time and enjoy the ride.

posternutbag9d9
05-13-2002, 01:12 PM
Some of the responses make me very mad... To that person who thinks 95% of the players complained... where did you come up with that nonsense number? Do you not realize that there are 1000s upon 1000s more players than whom read this board and then email raven? They were not mature... They simply whined. DFA was SO easy to counter, I still do it all the time on 1.02 servers. Step aside, start a to the right heavy stance swing, then move it over the dfaer when they hit the ground. Heal is now changed so that 3 points in it gives you 25 health for 2/3 of your force. Now the weapon spammers kill you over and over... You just win a skilled fight? Now they can respawn and kill you fast since you cannot recover anymore. 2 of my friends own the game and do not come to the boards... they loaded up 1.03 and found it incredibly unfun. Now, all you need to do is spam lightning since people cannot heal. They did not add more med packs in the levels to make up for it... Where were my 2 friends in your 95% of people who wanted the entire way the game was played changed? Oh, I get it.. because YOU whined, you think 95% of the people are behind you... Typical ignorance.

Demise_SOK
05-13-2002, 01:21 PM
I find it rather hard to believe that anyone who really plays this game alot in diferent game modes (FFA, CTF, JM, ect.) and isn't a backstab spammer could actually support this patch. By that I mean the changes to saber combat with the addition of autoblock and the fiddling with damage with sabers.

It is funny to read how moralistic some of you can get though.... that DFA spammer that first killed way back when must really have hurt your feelings.

Tree
05-13-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Lep
JKII was one of my favorite games. I'm sure the single player has been improved by the new 1.03 patch, but tell me one thing:

Why did they have to change multiplayer in this patch? There were no complaints. It was going perfectly, in my opinion, and I was having a blast. I would play on saber only CTF servers for a couple of hours and have nothing but fun, even if I was getting my ass kicked by a more skilled player.

This is one of the few games in YEARS which has captured my attention. And guess what? It went all down the drain because some coders at Lucas Arts decided they liked it better another way. Obviously many people here don't like the way it turned out. All I hear on the servers are complaints.

There was a perfect balance before: on weapon servers you could use light saber or weapon, with the obvious downside of having a sword versus an automatic gun. There were no flaws, in my opinion.

To come out a winner in a light saber battle it took multiple moves, and two skilled players going at it would have to try everything in the book. Not the case anymore.

Point is: no one had a problem with the way it was. Why change it? Who decided that was a good idea? I'll tell you what, if something isn't changed, I will take this back to the store. It's as simple as that. I don't enjoy the game anymore, at all.

I went on to one of my favorite servers and found myself "back stabbed" 10 times in a row. I'm sure there are ways around it, but no one cares. Especially when you can get to the top of the list simply by turning on absorb, running, and doing that move over and over again.

I don't like ANY new changes. None of them. I liked being able to SEE absorb, I liked being able to KICK people in the face. I was killed plenty of times by kicks, I have been owned by plenty of players with absorb.

Where was the problem? I can tell you where it IS now. It's apparently with the multiplayer design team at LucasArts. Please make changes, quickly.

Yes there were complaints. The saber stances were not balanced.
Heavy stance was to powerful.
Light stance was useless.
DFA was way overpowered. Not to mention Force powers. I never used guns so I'm not gonna talk about it.

Your point is wrong. A lot of people were complaining. Go search through the archives of the forums pre-patch.

I think everyone agrees that they backswings need to be balanced.

Absorb is great. Pre-patch who would be dumb enough to try and use force powers on a person with absorb?
Maybe a padawan, it was useless. Most players just waited absorbers out since they had no clue as to how to use a saber.

ITS A DEFENSIVE POWER. It doesn't absorb to much and with heal nerfed theres not much they can do with what they absorbed. Hit them with your saber. It only absorbs force powers. Learn how to use a saber ionstead of trying to whore force powers.

You are obviously dark side only/strong stance whore. Time to develop some skill. Give light side a whirl.

Demolisher
05-13-2002, 01:34 PM
I wish they had kept medium and lightstance the same. The forward lunge move sucks now and you can't really spin that well. I would have rather seen changes in single player like toning down the snipers and stuff. Also I want to see the freezing bug fixed

posternutbag9d9
05-13-2002, 03:47 PM
Tree, What about heal? With heal doing 25 health for 2/3 of your force... I guess you must love dieing to weapon spammers instead of being able to flee and heal and then pull their weapons... Also, only people HERE complained... that does NOT represent the entire JK2 community by FAR... DFA was NOT overpowered.. again... all you needed to do was sidestep right and start a heavy stance swing and then kill them while they were stunned after jumping... I do it time and time again since I still play on the many 1.02 servers...

Bl4de
05-13-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by Boreas
Also, people aren't complaining because they can't spam moves. If they were, they would say "I don't like 1.03 because I can't spam DFA", but they are saying they don't like OTHER THINGS.

Please, do not ASSUME they dislike 1.03 because of the lack of DFA. Anyway, the DFA spammers can just spam backstab now so they won't be complaining.

You really think someone would come out and say I SUCK! FIX THE NEW PATCH BECAUSE I SUCK!? No, they will make up other reasons to make themselves look better in the eyes of others. Maybe not all, but trust me, most of them. What I stated was people hate the new patch because of the dfa heal and drain nerf, and because saaber fights are now longer. That is the fact, not my opinion. 95% of the 1.03 whiners complain because of those 4 reasons, the other 5 % actually post something constructive for Raven to look at. Maybe if they are a coder, mapper, animator ect, they see flaws in animations, maps, several bugs, maybe graphic card issues. Those are the people I respect, not all these flaming children who say THIS PATCH SUCKS and have nothing to back that up with, except they can't kill people with DFA anymore.

MAYBE, just maybe, if all of these whiney kids keep complaining, Raven will just give up and stop patching the game all together. I know I would be pissed off at the community when they say I couldn't code. Just keep whining, that's how EVERYONE got their way in life, they just kept complaing. Yeah right. You get what you get, maybe get what you deserve.

Demise_SOK
05-13-2002, 07:06 PM
Bl4de,

I dislike the new patch, but not cuz of the change to DFA, heal or drain. I dislike it because of auto-blocking, saber damage reduction and this stupid idea that swings do less damage at the beginning and end as if we are all wearing armor or something that takes the mid-arch of a swing to penetrate.

Otherwise, I love the patch.

From reading the boards it seems to me that only a small, vocal segment of the community truly adore this patch- the NF, saber duel people.

Bl4de
05-13-2002, 07:25 PM
You have a valid point, I respect that. One thing you have to remember, as I've seen people say before, the gameplay. If it were even truer to star wars than what it already is, sabers should kill instantly, chop you in half, ect (luke's hand, darth's hand getting severed in 1 swing, you get the picture) you just can't have a game where things are realistic to whatever the game is based off of, unless that's how it's supposed to be (IE realistic combat sims). They changed the damage to make saber fights longer, interesting, and challenging. It makes your mind race when you're dueling an opponent, not knowing his health, wondering if you'll win or not, before 1.03 it was certain you would lose if you had lower health than the other person. On occasion you would get a lucky blow and win, but the chances are, the higher health you have, the more chances of winning you have. Now in 1.03 it doesn't work that way. I've battled it out for at least a minute with 20 health and still won, it gives people a chance, and at the same time gives people the same chance they had before if they are skilled.

Vanor
05-13-2002, 07:26 PM
Originally posted by Demise_SOK
From reading the boards it seems to me that only a small, vocal segment of the community truly adore this patch- the NF, saber duel people.

Well based on the poll on the front page, your wrong.

Out of 2,227 people

44.8% think it needs tweaking.
26.1% think it's perfict.
17.5% don't like it
11.7% think they changed to much.

Now what "needs tweaking" really means is open for debate, but clearly a lot more poeple like it then dislike it.

Some people think it's perfict, the majorty I would say like it but feel it needs some minor changes, like more ammo for CTF, slightly less blocking, slightly more damage from sabers.

Also based on all the polls done on these forms, it was clear that more people liked the patch then disliked it.

[QGA]Vertigo
05-13-2002, 07:28 PM
Originally posted by Bl4de


You really think someone would come out and say I SUCK! FIX THE NEW PATCH BECAUSE I SUCK!? No, they will make up other reasons to make themselves look better in the eyes of others. Maybe not all, but trust me, most of them. What I stated was people hate the new patch because of the dfa heal and drain nerf, and because saaber fights are now longer. That is the fact, not my opinion. 95% of the 1.03 whiners complain because of those 4 reasons, the other 5 % actually post something constructive for Raven to look at. Maybe if they are a coder, mapper, animator ect, they see flaws in animations, maps, several bugs, maybe graphic card issues. Those are the people I respect, not all these flaming children who say THIS PATCH SUCKS and have nothing to back that up with, except they can't kill people with DFA anymore.

Hmmm... we can turn this around too ya know...

Who's to say you're not one of those guys who likes the new patch, just 'coz he still has a 1-hit kill move, the backstab/sweep... that is even MORE effective and easy to pull off than DFA...

I'm not saying you are.... just trying to let you see things from the opposite side...

Bl4de
05-13-2002, 07:40 PM
I see your point vertigo. But you must realize, I'm posting this from a neutral position, pointing out the facts, and from how I've seen people act and what they have said both in the game and on forums around the web. I know people who don't even know why they are complaining, they just go with the flow. Sad but true. And if I ever spam a move please kill me.

I like the new patch for what I told Demise_SOK, the new challenging duels and battles. Besides, they never made the backslash stronger in the patch, if anything they made it worse, I believe it was stronger before the patch, but no one noticed it, you know why? Because the DFA was not a tactical move (as in, use it when you have the opportunity, not spam it), it was a move you could kill pretty much whoever you wanted with it. So no one noticed the backslash, they had DFA. It's the simple truth. I'm sure you noticed the sudden attention the back slash got when the patch was released.

I'm using my force powers now to see into the future...I see the backslash getting nerfed and people spamming the flip-attack move with yellow stance......then beyond that, the yellow flip attack getting nerfed....and the blue jab attack being spammed and overly powered. It's a sad cycle, because some STUPID people can't stop spamming moves over and over because they are cheap and or can't get a kill otherwise. If this keeps up, we might not have any special moves left.

SpaceMonkey1315
05-13-2002, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Swordless
well many people did complain about DFA. i didnt care. a kill is a kill. i personally dont dislike the patch. its fine in my eyes.

this here is the perfect insight...lay off newb bashing, and just play the game for what its worth, let people play the way they want to

BigM
05-13-2002, 09:36 PM
The only problem I have with the patch is that I can fight in a FFA for 10 minutes in a lightsaber fight against someone, and then another guy comes along and kills us with fletchett spam. First of all, it shouldn't take 10 minutes for someone to be killed with a lightsaber, no matter what. It just got boring. Second, I didn't have a chance against the guy with the fletchett gun because even the primary fire causes more damage than a lightsaber hit. IMO it should be something like 50, 75, 100 for light, medium, and heavy. (Note: I never use heavy, so don't accuse me of DFAing)

posternutbag9d9
05-13-2002, 10:28 PM
Yeah, and if you had heal the way it used to be, you would have been able to heal after the gunfire and pulled his weapon away... as it is, you are helpless but to die every time...And I loooove how noone even bothers addressing the points of my previous 2 posts... the people supporting 1.03 just skip over what they can't debate against.

Bl4de
05-13-2002, 11:54 PM
Originally posted by posternutbag9d9
Tree, What about heal? With heal doing 25 health for 2/3 of your force... I guess you must love dieing to weapon spammers instead of being able to flee and heal and then pull their weapons... Also, only people HERE complained... that does NOT represent the entire JK2 community by FAR... DFA was NOT overpowered.. again... all you needed to do was sidestep right and start a heavy stance swing and then kill them while they were stunned after jumping... I do it time and time again since I still play on the many 1.02 servers...

In 1.02 all the person had to do if they attacked, missed and someone else started attacking them was turn themselves with the saber still on the ground and it will kill them. Trust me, that's how bad the DFA was, now it is JUST fine the way it should have been, unable to turn when you hit the ground. Now it renders them vunerable, before the patch all they had to do was turn and it would either kill them or scare them off. I've tried it to see the hit range, and also got it tried ON. Hurts alot. Heal doing 25 health? Are you sure you had it on level 3? I had it on level 3 and it healed 50 points for 2/3rds...maybe my memory is just bad.

Weapon spammers = useless, you know why? Sabers deflect any lasers, and push deflects any throwables plus repeater 2ndary fire and rockets. If you can use force and the saber, you won't die by people using weapons. Besides, where does it say you MUST run and hide, heal, then pull their weapons? When I see someone using a gun I don't let them shoot, I pull it, or just kill them. You shouldn't even get hit when using a lightsaber. Unless he's 2 inches away with a rocket launcher that is. If heal could only be used after getting hit with a gun, great, but that wasn't the case. People abused heal so badly it would take a strong slash, special move (dfa, backslash ect), or a lucky head swing to kill them. Normally attacking them would result in them hitting their binded force heal button whenever they were hurt, which resulted in them having a higher chance at winning unless they just sucked. Combine that with 1.03 where heal wasn't balanced, guess what, fights would last FOREVER, as if people arlready didn't complain about the lengths enough.

JaledDur
05-14-2002, 12:11 AM
I wish they would fix the exploitable moves such as this classic favorite:

Push, turn around, down arrow, click, repeat.


All they have to do is push you down and then turn around and swing, thats it. At least with DFA you can get out of the way, but with this, you are totally helpless. And if you are moving trying to avoid their rear swings, you'll get your butt pushed on the ground a whole lot quicker...


Raven, I emplore you, dont go back to the way 1.02 was, but dont stay with this latest abomination. Just either:

A) Take out all the one hit kill moves or any other move that will be used repeatedly.

B) Make the special moves have a recovery time that is so great they are only used in special situations, and are not feasible for use all the time, such as what you did with the new DFA (bravo on that one btw).

Vestril
05-14-2002, 12:20 AM
Quite honestly playing with the patch bores the hell out of me. Playing without the patch is fun and interesting to me. Many of the changes were perfectly valid, but it takes so long to kill people, sometimes I get bored halfway through a duel and just think about something else entirely...

Bl4de
05-14-2002, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Vestril
Quite honestly playing with the patch bores the hell out of me. Playing without the patch is fun and interesting to me. Many of the changes were perfectly valid, but it takes so long to kill people, sometimes I get bored halfway through a duel and just think about something else entirely...

I believe that's called ADHD.

:craider:

Vestril
05-14-2002, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Bl4de


I believe that's called ADHD.

:craider:

Or its called a boring game...I'm pretty sure I don't have attention span problems, only because I'm capable of sitting down on a train and reading for 5 or 6 hours without getting out of my seat....also I was a pretty good student back in the HS day :D

Demise_SOK
05-14-2002, 01:30 PM
I think the 'risk' factor of backstab has totally disapeared. When I saw people preforming this move into crowds in 1.02 they were usully my next kill- not because they were the game leader or I feared them but because I remember this attack being alot easier to counter with regular saber swings prior to the advent of autoblock. Under 1.02 damage system one strong saber swing would kill the backslasher.

Now though, Raven has dropped damage on every attak but this one, in another thread Raven calls it an 'oversight'... sounds like an exploit to me, alot more then DFA ever was.

Phr00t
05-14-2002, 01:46 PM
I use the backslash but I don't spam it. It's perfectly viable in a strategic situation. I finish some 3 move combos in red with DFA and do a backslash if I miss, whats wrong with that?

Spider AL
05-14-2002, 01:54 PM
Well based on the poll on the front page, your wrong.

Out of 2,227 people

44.8% think it needs tweaking.
26.1% think it's perfict.
17.5% don't like it
11.7% think they changed to much.

Now what "needs tweaking" really means is open for debate, but clearly a lot more poeple like it then dislike it.

I'm sorry, but did you learn your statistic interpretation skills from Bill Clinton?

As of NOW, 25.1% of the entire vote say they like everything about it, but 74.9% of the vote either Don't like it, think they changed it too much or at BEST, think there are things that need to be changed in 1.04. I absolutely hate some of the changes made and the way they affect FFA, but I voted that I think it needs tweaking, because that's precisely what I think.

EVEN if you say the "tweak needed" voters are the middle ground, 30% of the people who voted say that the patch either "changed the game too much" or "don't like it." This far outweighs the percentage of people who are satisfied with the patch, the 25.1% who say it's perfect.

How you can POSSIBLY enterpret this to support your entirely imaginary claim that most people "like the patch," is beyond me. Puh.

Vestril
05-14-2002, 02:53 PM
I think the point is that a big part of the community is dissatisfied with the patch, whether it's 75% 90% or 40% hardly matters (this poll doesn't neccesarily represent exactly what the community feels), it's still a sizeable chunk, and as we get past the '1.03 is lame--you suck Raven' posts, we're finding many valid arguments for minor things that need to change.

Daveman
05-14-2002, 02:59 PM
My $.02 (admittedly I'm more of a duelist):

- Remove the "backstab/slash" moves from medium and heavy stances... make it light stance only.

- Reduce the damage of the light stance backstab, speed it up some, but plant the feet... don't allow turns while doing it.

- Keep blocking % the same, but reduce the blocking radius... make people FACE the blade/angle of attack in order to block.

Vanor
05-14-2002, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
How you can POSSIBLY enterpret this to support your entirely imaginary claim that most people "like the patch," is beyond me. Puh.

I base that on the other polls on this form, that had better worded options, and in those cases it was typical 1/2 or 1/3 in favor of the patch.

Actualy no one can truly say what the comunity as a whole thinks of this patch, only the part you see. There may be 10's of thousands of people who love the patch that never come to this site. And there may be 10's of thousands of people who hate this patch, have quit playing tottaly so they don't bother visiting JK2 sites.

Statics and polls can be used to prove anything, depending on how they're worded. Which was somewhat the point of my post, someone else used the same data to prove that everyone hated the patch.

I guess it really all depends on how you define the "needs tweaking" vote. If that's a mostly postive, but could use some minor fixing vote, then it's clear that a great deal more people like it then dislike it. If it's a more negitive vote, then it's equaly clear that most people dislike the patch, or at least aren't tottaly happy with it. I tend to assume, that the needs tweaking is a postive vote, due to the fact there are already 2 negitive options in the poll, altho not everyone may see it that way.

Myself I voted for the "needs tweaking" because even though for how I play this patch is perfict, it could be fixed to make the other game styles more playable.

Agen
05-14-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Daveman
My $.02 (admittedly I'm more of a duelist):

- Remove the "backstab/slash" moves from medium and heavy stances... make it light stance only.

- Reduce the damage of the light stance backstab, speed it up some, but plant the feet... don't allow turns while doing it.

- Keep blocking % the same, but reduce the blocking radius... make people FACE the blade/angle of attack in order to block.

This is exactly what needs to be changed for sabs (and the kick is killer to 56kers. i have been on servers where once tey see and 56ker they'll kick em to detah and oyu cna't stop it because of you dopn't see it starting.)

For CTF, the pace has been dramaticcly taken away, so add that back with more ammo too.

Spider AL
05-14-2002, 04:10 PM
I base that on the other polls on this form,

Ahh so since this poll doesn't agree with your idea of the proportions of people who are satisfied with the patch, you simply ignore the percentages in this poll and declare that because previous polls substantiated your view, this one does too, regardless of how people voted?

Those other polls you refer to were held, as you say, on this forum. They will OF COURSE not get as many hits as a poll on the jkii.net main page, and will therefore reflect the views of the community less accurately because a smaller cross-section was used to form the percentages.

Thirdly, a lot of people are ONLY NOW realising the drawbacks to the alterations made in 1.03, and therefore more and more people will come here to complain about them.

that had better worded options

You left out three important words to preface that statement, and they are: "In my opinion." In my opinion, the wording is perfectly servicable, and the percentages are telling.

As for the definition of "tweaking" being debatable, the definition of "liking the patch" is equally debatable. Throwing rocks at an ice-skater is all very well, except when you're standing on the same lake.

Jors C'Boath
05-14-2002, 04:30 PM
Just fix the Kick, makeing it a double tap on the jump, has totally negated this move for anyone on dial up(me). Also once someone does the backstab make them unmovable(recovery), unable to turn or look up and down. I have seen the backstab take out 3 people on one move while the user looked all over cuaseing the saber to do a complete circle of death.

Other then that I find the patch fine, I was never bothered by the DFA, as a quick push or roll took care of business. Drain was also a pain, but I learned to counter with a DFA or heavy side slash(baseball anyone?).

flippo
05-14-2002, 04:38 PM
here's a point that i think supports al's views: there are still a ton of 1.02 servers out there. in almost every game i've played when a new patch comes out, the servers were updated in about 2 or 3 days. it's been more than a week now and i still have no problem finding a 1.02 server. something must be wrong with this patch if it makes 75% of players feel it needs work.

while i like 1.02 a lot better, i would like to see a compromise of the two patches. here's my perfect patch:

1. saber combat like 1.02's with improved blocking. if your facing your attacker you should block. but you must facing directly towards him.

2. DFA and backstabbing fixed.

3. heal and drain unnerfed. find a compromise between force cost and effect that will please everyone.

4. all of the 1.03 benefits, e.g. icons indicating no force, saber only, etc. and the chat icon above players heads.

5. improve guns. no, i'm not a gun whore, but i really like sabering them.

i'm sure there are other things, but i can't think of any. this game can still be saved and please everyone. there's need to flame each other or divide into 1.02/1.03 factions. SAVE THE COMMUNITY. FIX THE GAME.

also, i don't see why everyone says people who duel love this patch. i used to play mostly no force duels, and i can't stand it.

Vestril
05-14-2002, 04:50 PM
also, i don't see why everyone says people who duel love this patch. i used to play mostly no force duels, and i can't stand it.

Indubitably, all that blocking gives me a headache...lol

Vanor
05-14-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Ahh so since this poll doesn't agree with your idea of the proportions of people who are satisfied with the patch, you simply ignore the percentages in this poll and declare that because previous polls substantiated your view, this one does too, regardless of how people voted?

I should of said, based on this, and other polls. IMO the needs tweaking is a postive vote, so the majorty of the people voting like the patch. We could go back and forth for all time on if that is true or not, and never change each others opinion. I in no way disregarded the poll on the front page. If it valdates my opinion or not, depends on how you interpet the data from the poll. I consider "needs tweaking" to be a postive thing, so more people like it then dislike it. You can arugue but you can't prove me wrong.

You left out three important words to preface that statement, and they are: "In my opinion." In my opinion, the wording is perfectly servicable, and the percentages are telling.

No actualy I didn't, that poll is poorly worded.

First off, nothing is truly perfict, so making that an option is a poor choice, few people will vote for that unless they truly believe it, there's a world of differance between "I really like it" and "it's perfict".

"Needs tweaking" is not at all clearly defined. Does this mean the patch is over all good, but needs some minor changes to be really good, or does it mean that the patch solves some problems, but needs some major tweaking to fix what it broke? This option is so poorly worded that it is nearly meaningless, it could be taken either as a postive vote or a negitive vote. Something a poll shouldn't have.

So the two options that could be used for a postive vote are poorly worded, that makes the whole poll subspect, and questionable. Unless of course they intended the poll to have 3 negitive options and only one postive one, in which case the poll is slanted and worthless.

The proper way to set up a poll for this patch on the JK2 site would be something like.

1 - I Love the patch, it fixes all the things I saw as problems.
2 - I like the patch, but it needs some minor changes to make it Great.
3 - I have mixed feelings about the patch, it needs a fair amount of work for it to make JK2 great.
4 - I dislike the patch, they need to make some major changes to make this game great again.
5 - I hate the patch, and won't install it, I just hope 1.04 is better.

That type of poll wouldn't be nearly as nebuious as the one they posted.

Of course you can say/believe what you wish, I like the patch, it is enjoyable so I honestly could care less if everyone else hates or not, because I don't have to load the next patch if Raven "fixes" everything and ruins my favored way of playing the game.

Vestril
05-14-2002, 05:15 PM
I should of said, based on this, and other polls. IMO the needs tweaking is a postive vote, so the majorty of the people voting like the patch. We could go back and forth for all time on if that is true or not, and never change each others opinion. I in no way disregarded the poll on the front page. If it valdates my opinion or not, depends on how you interpet the data from the poll. I consider "needs tweaking" to be a postive thing, so more people like it then dislike it. You can arugue but you can't prove me wrong.

I'm sorry...what poll are you talking about? There is no poll in this thread. Is it a poll from a different thread? If so, which one? I was trying to figure it out, but I couldn't....

Vanor
05-14-2002, 05:27 PM
Originally posted by Vestril
I'm sorry...what poll are you talking about? There is no poll in this thread. Is it a poll from a different thread? If so, which one? I was trying to figure it out, but I couldn't....

Here's a couple. This one is a prime example of a slanted poll, but it still shows that the people here are at least split on it.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51586

And here's another with a large sample to consider.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=51248

A 3rd one, with few votes.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52046

One purely about saber fighting.

http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=52187

Well i think that's enough, undoubtly many people voted in all 4 polls, so they can't be added up. But those are the polls I was refering to.

Bl4de
05-14-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Vestril


Or its called a boring game...I'm pretty sure I don't have attention span problems, only because I'm capable of sitting down on a train and reading for 5 or 6 hours without getting out of my seat....also I was a pretty good student back in the HS day :D

If you start daydreaming while playing a game you have some SERIOUS issues. No one in their right mind "day dreams" while fighting an opponent simply because they can't kill them in 1 second. If anything longer matches keeps you interested more, read my post to Demise. Besides, did Vader defeat Luke in 5 seconds or even 30? No, he didn't attack him once and kill him. He didn't backslash or DFA either :cool: but the point is, you're probably in a minority that gets bored while playing. How can that happen? Maybe you're just exaggerating, it's just not believable.

Vestril
05-14-2002, 05:32 PM
Oh, ok, you guys seemed tobe referring to a single poll 'poorly worded' and whatnot, which is why I was confused. Thanks for clearing it up :)

Vestril
05-14-2002, 05:42 PM
Originally posted by Bl4de


If you start daydreaming while playing a game you have some SERIOUS issues. No one in their right mind "day dreams" while fighting an opponent simply because they can't kill them in 1 second. If anything longer matches keeps you interested more, read my post to Demise. Besides, did Vader defeat Luke in 5 seconds or even 30? No, he didn't attack him once and kill him. He didn't backslash or DFA either :cool: but the point is, you're probably in a minority that gets bored while playing. How can that happen? Maybe you're just exaggerating, it's just not believable.

No...I'm not. Its boring. Comparing the new patch to real sword fighting is bull. In real sword fighting it requires skill to lead your opponent into opening himself up so you can attack him. In this game its all a matter of who had luckier timing when the uber-blocking failed.

The way the game was set up at first, you could lead people into attacking and getting their sabers out of the way so you could attack them. Now their saber goes wide and you attack and by some miracle you get blocked by the guys hilt or something.

I was exagerating to an extent, I still think about the game, its just that my focus isn't 100%--its hard to stay focused when the only attacks that hit are by random chance. The most difficult people I've played against are light stancers who just twirl around. Back in the day you could just give them a slash and slow them down, but now they basically have this blocking shield twirling around them, and the only way I can beat them is by some random shot getting in, or waiting for them to lunge/backslash so I can slash at their unprotected side.

I'm not talking about one second kills. I'm talking about the difference between pointlessly long, and intelligently long. I had long matches sometimes prepatch, they were with good people and they kept me REALLY interested. Now its more about chance than anything else.

Vanor
05-14-2002, 06:09 PM
Originally posted by Vestril
Oh, ok, you guys seemed tobe referring to a single poll 'poorly worded' and whatnot, which is why I was confused. Thanks for clearing it up :)

I was, the poll on the front page of this site, is poorly worded.

WD_Rage
05-14-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by AV_JC_Frost
But we have to remember that it IS their game, and it is theirs to tweak. They may have had a more far-reaching vision for this patch than what actually came out, and could be working on 1.04 as we speak.

Yes, they did make it, however, WE paid for it. Therefore, we have a say in what WE want OUR game to be. As for their vision, I have a feeling their vision only goes so far as to help the newbs that do not want to learn the game. I can understand that, but there are more than those few people that play this game.

As for the patch, I despise what it did to competitive play. Since I'm not a saberist, I cannot say anything about that aspect of the game. I can say, however, that this patch has split the community.

It seems to me that the champions of 1.03 are the ones that do not want to learn the game and learn how to become good at it. I found nothing wrong with 1.02 except for the low ammounts of ammo (and of course the extreme difference between JK1 FF Sabers and JK2 FF Sabers).

As far as DFA was concerned, the hit box should've been the only thing tweaked. It was easy to spot, easy to dodge, and easy to counter. Too bad some couldn't figure out what to look for.

Spider AL
05-14-2002, 06:55 PM
I consider "needs tweaking" to be a postive thing, so more people like it then dislike it. You can arugue but you can't prove me wrong.

That's why civilised people use the words "In my opinion," V. Frankly though, with your wild opinionated nonsense, I think you're doing a good job of proving yourself wrong. As for "needs tweaking," the option implies that there are problems to be fixed in the next patch. I, and many other people who despise the patch, want to see the changes for the better made in 1.04, therefore, we wish it to be tweaked. If someone is satisfied with the patch, happy with the patch, they are less likely to request changes in the next patch, therefore less of them will vote for the "tweaking" option. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

No actualy I didn't, that poll is poorly worded.

Ohhh I'm sorry Mr. GOD, I didn't realise an infallible one such as yourself, whose opinions are fact the moment your divine mind conceives of them, posted on the JKii.net forums.

I like the patch, it is enjoyable so I honestly could care less if everyone else hates or not

Firstly the correct expression is "couldn't care less," and you just implied that you care an appreciable amount if everyone else hates the patch. Secondly, it's painfully obvious that you do NOT care about the opinions of others, and twist even simple poll statistics in a feeble attempt to support your dubious and self-centred perspective on the matter. Kthxbye. :D

Vanor
05-14-2002, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
As for "needs tweaking," the option implies that there are problems to be fixed in the next patch. I, and many other people who despise the patch, want to see the changes for the better made in 1.04, therefore, we wish it to be tweaked. If someone is satisfied with the patch, happy with the patch, they are less likely to request changes in the next patch, therefore less of them will vote for the "tweaking" option. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Untrue, I personaly love the patch, but I voted "could use tweaking" because I reconize that it did harm things like CTF play. Given the choice between perfection and "could use tweaking" I think most reasonable people would pick the later, as the former is unatainable. I doubt that anyone truly considers this patch to be perfict, but given the poorly worded poll, that is the only option given to people who truly love this patch. The tweaking option neither states dislike or like for the patch, just that it could be improved. I have yet to see anything that couldn't be improved, so that option really can't be used to show favor or disfavor for the patch, only a sense that it could be improved.

Ohhh I'm sorry Mr. GOD, I didn't realise an infallible one such as yourself, whose opinions are fact the moment your divine mind conceives of them, posted on the JKii.net forums.

I see, rather then attack my arugment logicaly you attack me... That's fine.

If you take a intro course to political science, you will learn that there are wrong ways, and right ways to word a poll to avoid them being slanted. This isn't a matter of opinon, but a well established fact of political science, something polls are based on. A poll that has vague options, or ones that can be interputed different by different people is a poor option in a poll. The field of political science, requires a great deal of education on how to properly word a poll, so this isn't really a question of opinion, but rather a statement of the right or wrong way to do things. Just like there's a right and wrong way to build a house, there's a right and wrong way to word a poll. This is a technaly established fact, not opinion.

Secondly, it's painfully obvious that you do NOT care about the opinions of others, and twist even simple poll statistics in a feeble attempt to support your dubious and self-centred perspective on the matter. Kthxbye. :D

Untrue again, but apprently you are the one who is a God as you can see into my mind and soul and know what I want and think.

I've actualy supported people on this form who ask for reasonable fixes to the problems with the 1.03 patch, such as the lack of ammo in CTF games. And I have sugested that the blocking could be toned down, as well as the damage from sabers could be increased.

filter
05-14-2002, 08:46 PM
Originally posted by Vestril


No...I'm not. Its boring. Comparing the new patch to real sword fighting is bull. In real sword fighting it requires skill to lead your opponent into opening himself up so you can attack him. In this game its all a matter of who had luckier timing when the uber-blocking failed.

The way the game was set up at first, you could lead people into attacking and getting their sabers out of the way so you could attack them. Now their saber goes wide and you attack and by some miracle you get blocked by the guys hilt or something.

I was exagerating to an extent, I still think about the game, its just that my focus isn't 100%--its hard to stay focused when the only attacks that hit are by random chance. The most difficult people I've played against are light stancers who just twirl around. Back in the day you could just give them a slash and slow them down, but now they basically have this blocking shield twirling around them, and the only way I can beat them is by some random shot getting in, or waiting for them to lunge/backslash so I can slash at their unprotected side.

I'm not talking about one second kills. I'm talking about the difference between pointlessly long, and intelligently long. I had long matches sometimes prepatch, they were with good people and they kept me REALLY interested. Now its more about chance than anything else.


maybe you just suck!!!!
as far as teh back jab move
i can easily counter the back jab move while getting up. some times it gets me but about 60% of the time i can avoid it.

Vestril
05-15-2002, 03:48 AM
maybe you just suck!!!!

Thank you for the extremely well thought out reply

vas
05-15-2002, 04:57 AM
I didnt get the chance to play the earlier version but i have to agree that it looks as well as feels pretty stupid when people are running around backwards to try and execute a move that will most probably kill anyone it is used on. This game has enourmous potential and its a shame to see they have done this, all we can do is hope it is fixed (im sure jedi masters would not have tought there padiwan learners to do a backwards move as the ultimate in skilled fighting moves.. do u?? sorry had to put that in.)
The only other thing that anoys me is the fact that someone can come up to me with a rocket launcher or whatever that gun is and kill me in an instant, it just doesnt seem like even game play.. Yes.. thats why i stick to servers with guns disabled.

Anyways this game is still awesome and if they fix it in later patches it will only get better, well that should be the thinking of patch makers.. New Patch, Better Game, We can only hope

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 12:24 PM
I personaly love the patch, but I voted "could use tweaking" because I reconize that it did harm things like CTF play

That's because "needs tweaking" is the sensible option, and many people who hate the changes the patch has wrought would have voted for this option, because it is constructive. This invalidates your silly argument that most people who voted, are "happy" with the patch.

I think it's about time I asked: Could you define exactly what it is you mean by "most people are happy with the patch?"

Since you don't think it's perfect yourself, what does "happy" mean exactly? What do you mean when you say "I'm happy with the patch?" Do you mean "I don't hate everything about the patch" or "I only dislike some of the things about the patch" or "I think the patch is mostly good?"

When you say "Most people are happy with the patch" you could mean ANYTHING, so I have to say it's your argument that's nebulous, poorly worded and subject to interpretation, not the poll. The poll is quite, quite clear, that the VAST majority of people think WORK NEEDS TO BE DONE. The vast majority of people (yourself included, so you say) think that another patch is needed to correct the problems this patch introduced.

rather then attack my arugment logicaly you attack me... That's fine.

Actually I attack your arrogant assumptions that your ideas are somehow the "correct" ideas. Once you get that through your head, everything will run a lot smoother. :D

Just like there's a right and wrong way to build a house, there's a right and wrong way to word a poll. This is a technaly established fact, not opinion.

What rubbish. There are "better" and "worse" ways of building houses, and of wording polls. If YOU take a course in architecture and a course in public relations, you'll realise this fact. Your OPINION, your dubious and frankly suspect opinion which you seem to think is divine truth, is that the poll could have been improved. I disagree, as I think it sends the perfect message to Raven and represents the truth: That work needs to be done on the game. Do you disagree with that? I think not, judging by your previous assertions that you realise there are problems.

but apprently you are the one who is a God as you can see into my mind and soul and know what I want and think.

Oh it doesn't take a god to see that you believe yourself to be the chosen one, with the legendary gift of opinion-which-is-fact. The truth is of course, that you're just an average joe.

I've actualy supported people on this form who ask for reasonable fixes to the problems with the 1.03 patch, such as the lack of ammo in CTF games. And I have sugested that the blocking could be toned down, as well as the damage from sabers could be increased.

Good! now go back to doing that. :p Hopefully you realise that making wierd blanket statements like "most people are happy with the patch," you're setting the cause of improving the game back.

Vanor
05-15-2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Good! now go back to doing that. :p Hopefully you realise that making wierd blanket statements like "most people are happy with the patch," you're setting the cause of improving the game back.

I'm not going to bother responding to your other points, there simply isn't any reason to.

I'll gladly support any reasonable changes to make this game fun for everyone. Things like ammo in CTF and such.

My statement was in responce to another blanket statement, that said that most people hate this patch. Blanket statements like that are just if not more harmfull. And for the final time, it seems to me that most people are in fact happy with this patch, and it's the same group of people who post how horable it is. But there's simply no way of truely knowing this.

But there is no way that my saying that most people are happy with this patch, will effect Raven's stance on the next patch, if there is going to be one, which acording to something someone else posted, won't happen. This is of course 2nd hand, and no one from Raven has backed this claim up that I know of. But nothing I say will in fact harm the chances of getting this game "fixed" as you see it needs to be. However the attuide of people who hate this patch may very well destroy any chance of Raven doing what they wish. When someone says something like "I hope you fall fall on a dildo and get AIDS" in responce to the patch, that doesn't give Raven much reason to bother listening to this comunity anymore.

The game came out, and people whined and bitched about things they disliked. Raven listened to this, and made the patch acording to what they heard. Now people whine and bitch about the changes Raven made, personaly I couldn't blame them in the least if they didn't bother making more patches. I hope they do, but would understand if they decided to tell the JK2 comunity to F*** Off.

I hope that doesn't happen, but it sorta seems like that is the road we're going down right now.

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 04:19 PM
I'm not going to bother responding to your other points

Then you leave people with no choice but to conclude that you are unable to supply logical rebuttals to them. :)

there is no way that my saying that most people are happy with this patch, will effect Raven's stance on the next patch

Everything people say will have an effect. The changes made in 1.03 were due to the weight of public opinion. You made a false, and irresponsible statement, laden with inaccuracies. There is never an excuse for that. You say your blanket statement was in response to ANOTHER blanket statement, without providing a quote. If there IS such a statement, that would mean you were just as bad as the person you're trying to rebuke, not that you're excused.

The game came out, and people whined and bitched about things they disliked. Raven listened to this, and made the patch acording to what they heard. Now people whine and bitch about the changes Raven made, personaly I couldn't blame them in the least if they didn't bother making more patches.

I fail to see your contrast... The method that worked so well for the sabres-only fanatics may well be the only thing that grabs Raven's attention this time. Let's face it, Raven rewarded whiners in 1.03. Maybe all the ill-conceived fools who are ranting inanely and insultingly about 1.03 will tip the scales in our favour. Who knows?

Certainly, the duelling is excellent, much improved now, but CTF and FFA are degraded by 1.03's ruleset. Tweaks are necessary, as any silly fellow can see.

I'll gladly support any reasonable changes to make this game fun for everyone. Things like ammo in CTF and such.

There are many threads in the game feedback forum that require all the support, ideas and participation they can get. Go forth and give it instead of making the problem worse.

Vanor
05-15-2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Then you leave people with no choice but to conclude that you are unable to supply logical rebuttals to them. :)

No, just don't wish to spend the energy defending something that is for the most part meaningless. I will admit that I stated my case a bit stronger then I intended to, but I will stand by my point of view. But none of that really matters, so there's no point in fighting over it.

Let's face it, Raven rewarded whiners in 1.03. Maybe all the ill-conceived fools who are ranting inanely and insultingly about 1.03 will tip the scales in our favour. Who knows?

I'm sorry but I dissagree, there were many people who whined about how things worked in 1.02, but there were also many well thought out and reasoned debates on what was wrong with the game. I believe that Raven listened to the later, not the former.

"Raven this sucks, I hope you die!" Does no one any good. "Raven here's the issues I and others have with the game, and how we think you should fix them" on the other hand does quite a bit of good, and can be used by the developers to help improve the game.

I've been around these boards since before JK2 was released, I saw both the whining and reasonable issues with how the game was at release. Raven may of rewarded the whiners, but only because they happend to feel the same way as how everyone else felt.

Certainly, the duelling is excellent, much improved now, but CTF and FFA are degraded by 1.03's ruleset. Tweaks are necessary, as any silly fellow can see.

There are many threads in the game feedback forum that require all the support, ideas and participation they can get. Go forth and give it instead of making the problem worse.

Yes and no. A silly fellow who hasn't played CTF really wouldn't be able to see the problems with it. Myself I've taken the word of the more reasonable people who have posted about the problems with it, that there is a problem at all. I wouldn't know if there was or not. I will support reasonable tweaks in the game, as long as it doesn't harm the style of play I favor.

But I do find myself having trouble supporting that side of the fight, considering the amount of nasty comments and name calling that has happend. Something that didn't happen nearly as much by the people who had problems with JK2 before the patch.

YoDa2k2
05-15-2002, 05:52 PM
What i Like:

-Strong stance not being a ONE HIT kill thing anymore
-The new maps
-Makeing DFA harder to use

What i dont like:
-Backstab one hit kill move MY GOD! I WOULD TRADE DFA WITH THIS ANYDAY!
-Blocking, i think in MP the blocking was too random... but in THIS patch blocking is TOO predicable! i meen its just anoying how easy and frequent blocking is!

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 06:08 PM
No, just don't wish to spend the energy defending something that is for the most part meaningless.

I don't think the debate over the desire to fix the obvious problems of 1.03 is meaningless. I think it's important for the success of a game I enjoy.

there were many people who whined about how things worked in 1.02, but there were also many well thought out and reasoned debates on what was wrong with the game.

As there are now, for the anti-1.03 changes lobby. Perhaps you haven't read them... Aiee's thread on the feedback forum is one, my own "post-patch: Yes I feel cheap" thread is another. Lots of great ideas have been submitted over the time since 1.03's release, and I hope Raven listens to them.

Raven may of rewarded the whiners, but only because they happend to feel the same way as how everyone else felt.

You're making gross generalisations again my friend, just because a vocal group you happen to agree with posted some threads, that doesn't make them "everyone."

I will support reasonable tweaks in the game, as long as it doesn't harm the style of play I favor.

Have you been to all the lucid threads that need support yet? You keep saying you'd support lucid suggestions to improve CTF, but I still don't see where you have supported such suggestions.

I do find myself having trouble supporting that side of the fight, considering the amount of nasty comments and name calling that has happend. Something that didn't happen nearly as much by the people who had problems with JK2 before the patch.

Ahh so that's why. Well let me tell you friend, that there were some really nasty people lobbying for the changes made in 1.03. They're the same people that are now telling the anti-1.03 changes lobby to "ShuT uP!11," "ST0P Pl@yInG THeN j00 WHINORZ!!111 ahahahah ah" and/or "GO Aw@Y!!!11" They insulted gun-users, they complained about everything, and belittled anyone of an opposing viewpoint to themselves. I fear you were looking at that particular lobby through rose-tinted spectacles of bias, and did not see the dark heart of it.

WD_Rage
05-15-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by YoDa2k2
What i Like:

-Strong stance not being a ONE HIT kill thing anymore
-The new maps
-Makeing DFA harder to use

What i dont like:
-Backstab one hit kill move MY GOD! I WOULD TRADE DFA WITH THIS ANYDAY!
-Blocking, i think in MP the blocking was too random... but in THIS patch blocking is TOO predicable! i meen its just anoying how easy and frequent blocking is!

Strong stance was never a one hit kill (OHK). One move of the strong stance was a OHK, and that was DFA. As far as DFA is concerned, the ONLY thing needing tweaking was the hitbox. Other than that, it was a very, very easy move to spot, dodge, and counter. I loved DFA spammers because then I could show them that their move, in reality, sucked. As for me, I used it only as a finishing move.

I think there should be a OHK move, however, it ought to be hard to acheive. Yes, the blocking does suck, it's idiotic. I went to one of the local software stores on Saturday to get the release date of UT2003, and there on an XBox was Obi-Wan. I am tremendously glad that game did not hit the PC, however, I couldn't help but watch two people duel. It appeared to me that they had to do their own blocking. I thought "Wow. Now THAT's gotta take some skill."

Oh well, my area in JK2 was guns, of which I will not even touch because I have already written the equivilent of 2 novels on this forums about that subject.

Demise_SOK
05-15-2002, 06:54 PM
Spider AL wrote:

"They insulted gun-users, they complained about everything, and belittled anyone of an opposing viewpoint to themselves. I fear you were looking at that particular lobby through rose-tinted spectacles of bias, and did not see the dark heart of it."

Hhmmmm, could this be the hypothetical 1/4 of JK2 players and surfers of this website that voted the patch as perfect?

In my opinion this small constituency is the whiny, NF duel server players.

Talon_of_BHG
05-15-2002, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Bl4de


In 1.02 all the person had to do if they attacked, missed and someone else started attacking them was turn themselves with the saber still on the ground and it will kill them. Trust me, that's how bad the DFA was, now it is JUST fine the way it should have been, unable to turn when you hit the ground. Now it renders them vunerable, before the patch all they had to do was turn and it would either kill them or scare them off. I've tried it to see the hit range, and also got it tried ON. Hurts alot.


ummm I have never had any problem with DFA being spammed. There are any number of ways to counter it in 1.02. In 1.03 I have been in games where they use the DFA and i come up from side and lay my saber precisely accross the back of their neck and he just got up and did it again. We did this 3 times in a row with me chopping the back of his neck with my saber. He didnt die. Maybe its just me but he should have died the first time. In 1.02 he would have at least taken enough damage to give him second thoughts about trying it again.

In 1.02 there were counters to every technique or strategy. In 1.03 there is no need for techniques or strategies (other than absorb and backstab associated ones) in the first place.

Vanor
05-15-2002, 07:22 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
I don't think the debate over the desire to fix the obvious problems of 1.03 is meaningless. I think it's important for the success of a game I enjoy.

I agree, I was saying that in referance to the whole "what does tweaked mean" debate we were having. Making the 1.04 patch more acceptable to more people is a good thing and worth discussing.

As there are now, for the anti-1.03 changes lobby. Perhaps you haven't read them...

I would apprecate it if you would stop making assuptions about what I mean, or taking what I said out of context. I never said that all the anti-1.03 posts where unreasonable bitch fests. There have been serveral good posts on this issue.

You're making gross generalisations again my friend, just because a vocal group you happen to agree with posted some threads, that doesn't make them "everyone."

I think you misunderstod how I ment everyone, I didn't mean it as in everyone who played JK2, but as in everyone who had issues with JK2 play and posted about it.... In this case everyone = those posting about problems how 1.02 played, not everyone who playes JK2.

Have you been to all the lucid threads that need support yet? You keep saying you'd support lucid suggestions to improve CTF, but I still don't see where you have supported such suggestions.

I have enough to do durning the day that I have to limit myself to one of the forms on this site, I don't visit the other forms here much, especialy considering how the game feedback was filled with so much pointless "Raven SUXZ!" posts. I did however throw my support for CTF players on this form. WD_Something for example. It was in the "Some detales about the patch" sticky. I'm sorry you missed my posts, but just because you didn't see them, doesn't mean you should assume I didn't do it.

Ahh so that's why. Well let me tell you friend, that there were some really nasty people lobbying for the changes made in 1.03. They're the same people that are now telling the anti-1.03 changes lobby to "ShuT uP!11," "ST0P Pl@yInG THeN j00 WHINORZ!!111 ahahahah ah" and/or "GO Aw@Y!!!11" They insulted gun-users, they complained about everything, and belittled anyone of an opposing viewpoint to themselves. I fear you were looking at that particular lobby through rose-tinted spectacles of bias, and did not see the dark heart of it.

Perhaps, I tend to disgreard any post that is not much more then brainless yelling. I did not and do not say that the people who favored 1.03 are blameless, they can be as rude and stupid as anyone else. I think they should get a small bit of leway, considering how many times people who had ligitimit problems with DFA, were told "Learn to play you n00b." no matter how well thought out or reasonable their post was. That isn't to say they should be excused, but I can understand a bit of payback.

There isn't a "dark heart" on either side IMO, just people wanting the game to suit their play style best. People didn't like how 1.02 played, so they commented about it here, some reasonably and some not so reasonably. Now we have the same thing, but before the patch came out, there was much less of the "I hope Raven gets AIDS" type posts... or people posting a script to be used to crash the 1.03 servers.

All in all, it seems to me, that the anti-1.03 camp is filled with more brainless whiners then the pro-1.03 camp is, which is sad, as it really hurts the cause of those wanting reasonable changes to the game. But what ever the people were like before, doesn't change the fact that I have trouble supporting a group that either welcomes or at least doesn't speak against people wishing human beings to get AIDS, or people looking to ruin the fun of other people by crashing their server.

Agen
05-15-2002, 07:34 PM
Lot's of mixed results must mean something........ they got somethings right nad got osmethings wrong :cool:

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 07:51 PM
I didn't mean it as in everyone who played JK2, but as in everyone who had issues with JK2 play and posted about it.... In this case everyone = those posting about problems how 1.02 played, not everyone who playes JK2.

The word "everyone" doesn't automatically mean that! Could you be more specific please? :D

All in all, it seems to me, that the anti-1.03 camp is filled with more brainless whiners then the pro-1.03 camp is,

Do you have actual numbers to back this up with, or is it just an assumption? I think it may just be an assumption.

In 1.02 there were counters to every technique or strategy. In 1.03 there is no need for techniques or strategies (other than absorb and backstab associated ones) in the first place.

This is exactly, exactly exactly the point. The game's been SHRUNK.

Vanor
05-15-2002, 07:59 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Do you have actual numbers to back this up with, or is it just an assumption? I think it may just be an assumption.


Of course that's an assumption, that's why I said "it seems to me".

Numbers aside, the anti-1.03 camp deffently has the more harsh people, I know that some poeple got nasty about how 1.02 played, but no where near what has been said in the last few weeks.

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 08:05 PM
Of course that's an assumption,

Aha! you admit it. Really I must say that all these unsubstantiated and opinion-based statements you keep coming out with are entirely off-putting. Substantiate!

Numbers aside, the anti-1.03 camp deffently has the more harsh people

Wha... how can you say "numbers aside" and then insist that anti-1.03 has "more harsh people?"

I've seen about ten vocal anti-1.03ers who have insulted raven and other people... I saw a similar, if not greater number of people accusing everyone else of being "cheap," "evil," "whores," or other expletives before the patch... because they were happy with 1.02 and said so. The "whining" group back then were mostly NF sabreists who wanted to play NF sabres, even on FF Guns and sabres servers. They're still around, and they're slowly learning that gunners and force users will STILL beat them, because the sabres are actually weaker now against a gunner with absorb as they do less damage, and that they're prone to pull/backswingers. Give it a week and I predict they'll start going on about the "evil cheap force using gunwhores" once again. THEN, we can count them. :)

Vanor
05-15-2002, 08:12 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Aha! you admit it. Really I must say that all these unsubstantiated and opinion-based statements you keep coming out with are entirely off-putting. Substantiate!

I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm saying, but I thought it was rather clear that my statement was a matter of opinion.

Wha... how can you say "numbers aside" and then insist that anti-1.03 has "more harsh people?"

That was a poorly worded statement on my part. I ment that the people doing the flaming, are more harsh in what they say, not that there's more of them. And before you say it, that's not really just a mater of opinion. I don't remember Anyone wishing the people at Raven would die, or developing scripts to crash the JK2 servers.

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 08:20 PM
I'm sorry you can't understand what I'm saying

That's okay, you can work on your technique. :p

ment that the people doing the flaming, are more harsh in what they say, not that there's more of them.

Ah that's a matter of op-

And before you say it, that's not really just a mater of opinion. I don't remember Anyone wishing the people at Raven would die, or developing scripts to crash the JK2 servers.

Ah. Well, I remember people threatening to kill me several times for shooting them. Also threatening bodily harm to other gunners on guns servers. On here, we were accused of being morons, denigrated, insulted... As for wanting Raven to... die, lol, why would they? Raven hadn't taken anything away from them. Now I'm not saying Raven have "stolen" anything, but I can understand some more impressionable and violent youths feeling that way. No, I certainly think that the pro-1.03 lobby has its share of half-witted malevolent scum. If positions were reversed, I'm purdy sure they'd be saying the same things as the less intelligent anti-1.03 protesters are, because silly people are silly people, regardless of their views. :)