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View Full Version : MP Patch Consequences......"The Janitor" (The newest member of the DFA family)


Chanke4252
05-15-2002, 04:28 PM
well I just wanted to start a thread dedicated to the new scourge of JO multiplayer......."The Janitor".

I heard someone use that term to describe someone who pushes constantly untill someone falls down and then uses the backstab/sweep type move to kill them in one shot. This is just as bad as DFA used to be, if not worse because of its extremely broad use. The patch should have only modified what people were complaining about.....that being the shotty multiplayer saber moves that were very different from SP, and the DFA bugs. It seems they fixed that, but then decided to "fix" alot of other stuff that didnt need fixing. Now that theyve changed the damage for every stance to basically nothing except at one certain part of the move, it takes an extremely long time to kill someone who isnt even moving at all. The damage tables for everything were ok except DFA, so why did they change them? The changing of the non-special move damage tables just makes the regular saber moves a little more useless, and then adding another uber 1-hit-kill move that is easy to pull off just encourages people to use it instead of anything else.

To summarize my post, the original problems were fixed but due to some overzealous programers, a whole slew of new, and maybe worse, problems have emerged (The soon to be imfamous "Janitor").

Whats the moral of this story? "Dont fix what dont need fixing"



PS- I think they did a good job with this patch and fixed the original problems, they just got ahead of themselves a bit. But I do feel that this just replaced the original major MP problem (DFA) with another, nearly identical, problem (1-hit-kill moves in general).

Agen
05-15-2002, 04:45 PM
Well i have known thism ove for quite some itme (3rd day of the patch) but it only works on newbs alot. Learn form your msitakes, if they try it or do it once. keep your distance and try throw more than usual. If your are pushed press jump frequently or fire, choose which is best for you(makes oyu get up faster). and if they are ocmnig toward you to push you again, try forcep ull yourself,sicne they/re ocming your way it is easier for the to fall, and you cna do whatever you want with them, backsweep them if oyu weant or kill em in heavy.

Chanke4252
05-15-2002, 05:04 PM
Thanks for the tips, but sadly I am done with multiplayer JO all together untill backstab/backslash has been fixed.

Salience
05-15-2002, 05:07 PM
*cough*

FORCE ABSORB

*cough*

Chanke4252
05-15-2002, 05:09 PM
Also just wondering why the sniper rifle was nerfed. That was not overpowered at all so long as you werent standing still for a long time or taking a nap. Its already less powerful than other game's sniper rifles since you have to charge each shot, and it cant be used while moving or in close quarters like other games' sniper rifles. Oh well, I will be living in Morrowind for a while it seems.

Silent Wolf
05-15-2002, 05:16 PM
better luck next time kid.

Chanke4252
05-15-2002, 05:24 PM
Not next time. I am confident that it will be fixed either officially or unofficially. It seems people dislike the backstabs a bit more than they ever did the DFA, so hopefully Raven will take notice.

(does the "...so hopefully Raven will take notice" dance)

[Dom_Pmd]
05-15-2002, 05:26 PM
If you want true dueling fun, find servers that are Saber Only/No Force!


:jango:

...any other game play mode is a waste of time...

Chanke4252
05-15-2002, 05:31 PM
I totally agree with that. No Force/Sabers Only are my favorite games to play. But sadly, you can still backslash/backstab in those games (insert sobbing here). But I do, or did at least, use the disruptor on the big CTF level with all the catwalks, you know the one.

Vanor
05-15-2002, 05:45 PM
Originally posted by Chanke4252
Whats the moral of this story? "Dont fix what dont need fixing"

PS- I think they did a good job with this patch and fixed the original problems, they just got ahead of themselves a bit. But I do feel that this just replaced the original major MP problem (DFA) with another, nearly identical, problem (1-hit-kill moves in general).

You do know that this move was in JK2 prior to the patch right? I've been using backslash/stab since the day the game was released. The only thing the patch did to increase the amount of back stab/slashing going on is make the DFA harder to do, and not so effective. So naturaly the lame people playing JK2 found another move to spam and make up for their lack of skill with.

(Disclamer)

That isn't to say everyone who uses the back stab/slash is lame, or has no skill, it's just the ass fighters that fall under that catagory.

Bl4de
05-15-2002, 06:16 PM
Originally posted by Salience
*cough*

FORCE ABSORB

*cough*

No one should be forced to use absorb simply because some no-talent assclowns bought the game just to piss people off.

TheDarkSide
05-15-2002, 06:38 PM
To paraphrase a popular quote, "It's the people, stupid".

Moves don't spam themselves. Behind every back-sweeping, back stabbing, or ass-fighting JK2 player model on the screen is a guy(or gal) sitting in front of their computer making it do that.

What you really have the problem with is the guy doing it non-stop, and not the move itself. It's not like a$$-fighting just occurs spontaneously or randomly, when you attempt to jump and hold the key down too long or anything. It's a guy on the other end of the internet who is abusing it. The key is the people you play with, and if you're looking to a public server with random people for your gaming satisfaction, you're just asking for a letdown no matter what version you're running. Find a bunch of people you like, who play like you do and you're going to find a lot more happiness in the game.

The game's not ruined, the moves don't ruin anything. A-hole's are ruining the game for you.

TDS

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 06:50 PM
I have to say I agree with blade. I for one want a variety of equally powerful force powers to choose from, not one that's more powerful than any others. For anyone who disagrees that absorb is overpowered, play me sometime. I'll show you the depths of overpoweredness.

And,

The only thing the patch did to increase the amount of back stab/slashing going on is make the DFA harder to do, and not so effective. So naturaly the lame people playing JK2 found another move to spam and make up for their lack of skill with.

It's not just the move, it's the pull/backswing combo. It didn't have quite the same effect in 1.02 as I recall... I will have to test it to make sure though.

Oh, and here's a point... if it doesn't matter how many cheap moves there are in the game (as cheap people ruin the game and not cheap moves) why did all the people campaign for the nerfing of DFA, and why did Raven nerf it? Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Cheap moves should be nerfed. But not NORMAL moves! In FFA the sabre is a slow weapon to kill people with, when compared to a flechette. So what has the patch done for sabres in FFA, other than disempowering it?

Master Rooster
05-15-2002, 06:53 PM
I seem to remember thjat absorb didn't work against push/pull. Was this just me being thick, or has the patch changed it?

Vanor
05-15-2002, 06:59 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
It's not just the move, it's the pull/backswing combo. It didn't have quite the same effect in 1.02 as I recall... I will have to test it to make sure though.

Please do, others did and said there's no differance. I don't see how there could be, in 1.02 pull could knock you down, and in 1.03 pull can knock you down. In 1.02 the back stab/slash was deadly, in 1.03 the back stab/slash is deadly. The only differance I can think of, is perhaps pull knocks you down more now then before.

Oh, and here's a point... if it doesn't matter how many cheap moves there are in the game (as cheap people ruin the game and not cheap moves) why did all the people campaign for the nerfing of DFA, and why did Raven nerf it? Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

How did Raven actualy nerf the DFA?

They changed it so it was no longer deadly at the end of the move, they changed it so you couldn't turn in mid air, they changed the key combo to do a DFA some. So basicly they fixed the bugs in the move, made it act like they intended to orginaly, and made it slightly harder to do. Not what I'd consider a nerf personaly.

DFA is still a effective move, and is still used on the servers. It's just not as easy or effective to spam constantly as it was. Just how is making a move less effective as a cheep/spam move a bad thing? It won't stop people from using cheep/spam moves, but it is a step in the right direction.

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 07:12 PM
Please do

I will. :) I think it may be to do with the multiple hits in one swing phenominon, or perhaps the removal of the batsabre effect that moved people more pre-patch.

Not what I'd consider a nerf personaly.

If a move is the most powerful move in the game, far more powerful than anything else, and is fixed in the patch so that it is a normal move with proper limitations and more realistic damage, I would say that it has been nerfed. Nerf is not necessarily a negative word, you know, merely pertaining to a drastic drop in power.

Just how is making a move less effective as a cheep/spam move a bad thing?

I'm not sure where you think I said anything else, are you reading my post properly?

What I said was that the people who are pro-patch, are saying "IT DOESN'T NEED ANYMORE FIXES, IT'Z FIINE!!11" but I am saying cheap moves such as the backswing should be nerfed, because DFA was nerfed, due to its being a cheap move. Don't you agree?

TheDarkSide
05-15-2002, 08:22 PM
I was wondering when you'd pop up in this thread :D



Oh, and here's a point... if it doesn't matter how many cheap moves there are in the game (as cheap people ruin the game and not cheap moves) why did all the people campaign for the nerfing of DFA, and why did Raven nerf it? Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

Raven nerfed the move because it was broken. You could turn mid and post swing and it had a crazy hit detection radius. It had none of the negatives that it was reported to have as a consequence of trying a one hit one kill move.

People campaigned for its nerfing because this is a free country, and you can do whatever you want as long as its legal. Why do people whine? Why do people come on to say they are leaving forever/reverting to 1.02/etc/etc? It still doesn't change my original point.

To be honest, Spider AL, pre-patch, I didn't have much of a problem with DFA whoring or whatever you want to call. Really almost none, because I rarely played on public servers. Almost all "random" on-line play I do is duelling, and FFA's and CTF is mostly with my buddies (~10-15 or so) who all have roughly the same sense of what constitutes poor on-line play (i.e. constant spamming of anything, using the same move over and over and over and over, etc). As I think I've told you before in a different thread Al, I find almost 0 satisfaction in hopping on a random server and trying to beat other people who I most likely will never see again when I get off. The real satisfaction for me is beating my friends, the ones I see in real-life, the ones who I do more with than just play JK2.

99% of why people do things like spam cheap moves is the same reason why people are so flame-happy on forums. Anonymity. You can be a real a-hole on-line and not pay any repercussions for it except maybe getting your favorite a-hole tactic patched out of a game. When you're playing with people you know, people that you actually care how they view you or think of you, you're not going to play like an a-hole. And whenever you have a bunch of people playing like that you're going to have a good time. If I acted like a butthead constantly, janitoring my buddies 24/7, they'd stop wanting to play with me, and that would inevitably carry over to real life. It's a form of peer-policing I guess.

I'm going to repeat my original point again. People spam moves, moves don't spam themselves. Your view of whether the game is "ruined" or not lies much more in the on-line company you keep than anything Raven did or didn't do in their game/patch/nerf. If you play with a-hole people, they will find ways to be a-holes, no matter what you do to them or their favorite tactics. Evidence v1.03 with the janitor problem now that DFA requires more skill to execute.

Raven will come out with another patch, and another group of people will be unhappy, and inevitably, something else will be deemed cheap or the "new DFA". This is a fact.
Another fact is that if you play with a bunch of guys who DON'T abuse whatever the cheap move du jour is, it won't affect you or the game one bit.

TDS

Vanor
05-15-2002, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
If a move is the most powerful move in the game, far more powerful than anything else, and is fixed in the patch so that it is a normal move with proper limitations and more realistic damage, I would say that it has been nerfed. Nerf is not necessarily a negative word, you know, merely pertaining to a drastic drop in power.

Agreed, I guess it's a sign of a "misspent youth" playing Diablo2, I still tend to assocate "nerf" with reduceing the power of something to the point of it not being usefull, which is untrue.

I'm not sure where you think I said anything else, are you reading my post properly?

What I said was that the people who are pro-patch, are saying "IT DOESN'T NEED ANYMORE FIXES, IT'Z FIINE!!11" but I am saying cheap moves such as the backswing should be nerfed, because DFA was nerfed, due to its being a cheap move. Don't you agree?

Hmmm I think your misunderstanding what people are saying. I don't think many people are truly saying the 1.03 patch is perfict... It's just that those who like the patch feel it nesicary to defend it against all the "Raven Suxs!" posts.

DFA needed to be fixed, not because people whined about it, but because it was buggy. The ablity to turn in mid air was not intended from what I understand, and the late hit detection was broken. The change in how it was excuted was the only real nerf, so perhaps something simular should be done with the backswing. There's nothing buggy about the backswing that I know of, but it caries far to few disadvatages compaired to it's power.

I agree the backswing should be changed so it's not so easy to spam, but I don't know that the move it's self needs to be nerfed. There's nothing wrong with a 1 hit kill move, provided it's hard to do, and has some drawbacks. The backswing it's self isn't so much the problem, as is the fact that you can run backwards all day long at the same speed as someone moving forward that is a big part of the problem.

So I would sugest that rather then toning down the damage much, just decrease the speed someone can run backwards. And perhaps make it so you are rather vulnerable for a few seconds after the swing/stab. So if you miss you'll proably get cut down.

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 08:49 PM
DFA needed to be fixed, not because people whined about it, but because it was buggy.

But what was the EFFECT of its bugginess? It was POWERFUL. People disliked it because it was so much more powerful than other moves, some people spammed it ie: did nothing BUT DFA. The same is true of backswing. I'd say any move that kills people with one click of the fire button is "buggy." Not even the most powerful guns do that!

I agree the backswing should be changed so it's not so easy to spam, but I don't know that the move it's self needs to be nerfed. There's nothing wrong with a 1 hit kill move, provided it's hard to do, and has some drawbacks

But the backswing, when combined with a knockdown, is EASY to do. Too easy. When I say "nerf the backswing" I mean reduce its godlike power so that it's once again a normal move. Or, reduce its godlike power by making it harder to do.

I'm going to repeat my original point again. People spam moves, moves don't spam themselves.

TDS, is that like "guns don't kill people, people kill people?" Well what would happen if you had the power to take away everyone's guns at once? Raven has that power over JO. The power to remove buggy and imbalanced moves.

Agen
05-15-2002, 09:17 PM
Ditto all the good points.

TheDarkSide
05-15-2002, 09:20 PM
TDS, is that like "guns don't kill people, people kill people?"

Without having this degenerate into a political thread, yes, it is very much like the "guns don't kill people" cliche.

Well what would happen if you had the power to take away everyone's guns at once?

The people who used to use guns will find something else to kill people with, like , I don't know, say swords. And then the cry comes up to take away swords, and you take them all away, and something else takes it place like knives. And this will continue ad infinitum until all we have left in the world is jello, because nobody can be hurt by jello.

The problem of shootings in schools could most definitely be solved by having jello be the only legal weapon left. But does that the best or most obvious solution?

This is directly analagous to what we are seeing in JK2 v1.02 and v1.03. The gun was v1.02 DFA. That was taken away and the spammers discovered the janitor move (that was always there to begin with) which became the new gun. Raven could release another patch that makes it impossible to janitor, but something else will pop up as cheap, and players will spam that, because it's "the only thing left to spam now that DFA and Janitoring were nerfed".

The common thread between both these situations is that the root of the problem is the people doing it, not the method they use to do it. Taking away guns or DFA's or janitor's is the band-aid solution, and yes you are correct it is within Raven's power to do that. But it doesn't cure the problem and it won't prevent it from happening in the future with something else. There are problematic people in real life and on-line.


Raven has that power over JO. The power to remove buggy and imbalanced moves

Yes they do.....BUT if they never release another patch again, the game is NOT RUINED. You can play however you want, and there are plenty of people out there who feel that the janitoring is cheap and don't like it. If Raven goes under tomorrow, you have more than enough power in your hands to eliminate the janitor problem on your own.

TDS

Spider AL
05-15-2002, 09:31 PM
The people who used to use guns will find something else to kill people with, like , I don't know, say swords.

If I've learned anything from our native English news, the crime statistics are against you there, and guns are so much easier to kill people with than swords... ;)

BUT if they never release another patch again, the game is NOT RUINED.

I disagree, and I wouldn't be actively campaigning for tweaks if I didn't.

I was looking forward to competitive JO. Tournaments, etc. I love competitive stuff, and was happy that 1.02 JO appeared to be the IDEAL competitive game. Post-patch, talk to any very skilled FFAer. Any experienced CTFer. They'll agree that the patch has nerfed competitive possibilities as surely as it's nerfed DFA, drain and grip. If I didn't believe that, I wouldn't be posting the way I am.

Raven could release another patch that makes it impossible to janitor, but something else will pop up as cheap, and players will spam that, because it's "the only thing left to spam now that DFA and Janitoring were nerfed".

We-eeell, I'm not sure I agree with that opinion. Certainly you'll never eliminate ALL moves which could be construed as "cheap" but none are so obvious as DFA was, and backswing is now... But without the changes to the batsabre effect, the multiple damage touches of the sabre... I doubt backswing would have replaced DFA as effectively as it has.

Besides, just because there may be different cheap moves in the future, doesn't mean we shouldn't campaign for the current cheap moves to be rectified. Lots of improvements in patches = happy community = popular game = more tournaments = more prizes = larger community = more publicity and more cash for Raven. How can one argue with my leet maths? :D

Desslock
05-15-2002, 10:01 PM
The people who used to use guns will find something else to kill people with, like , I don't know, say swords.

Some of us actually wouldn't mind this :p

No one used Backstab before 1.03 because DFA was so much easier to abuse. You could look straight ahead, and you had the bad hit detection working for you. Backstab, with no force, now takes more skill than DFA did, if you could say any of them had skill in the first place.

Games are extremely hard to balance.. theres really no defining point in a game to call it 'balanced' because there will always be people who can use a strategy or move in such a way that it appears to be flawed and unbalanced. This is called skill. In RTS games, there is no such thing as abuse in a balanced game. In Magic: The Gathering, people don't bitch much about cheap cards because it's real life, and they can probably get the card themselves. Somewhere down the line, you pay for advantages in Magic. There are very few First Person Shooters/Fighters on the market, compared to RTS games, so theres really not much experience for any company to build on. To be honest, Raven was a bit in the dark about balancing of saber play.. so you really can't blame them besides possibly lack of testing, which probably was done, and extensively. Bugs and mistakes happen in any game. It was a valiant effort to try to fix the mistakes, but IMO, the patch fell flat on its face with the implementation of SP combat mechanics in MP.

TheDarkSide
05-15-2002, 11:25 PM
Spider as you know, I am all for another patch to fix some things that I'd like to see fixed. The point I'm trying to make here though is that people exploiting the moves are the root of the problem.

If I played you, and we both agreed not to use the backstab janitor move, and we play a good match (with you prolly whoopin my butt) without either one of us breaking out the backstab....was that match ruined? The "buggy and imbalanced" portion of the game is never brought up. Even if the potential to pull off a buggy move is there, is the game "ruined" even if it is never used? Taking a more moderate position, let's say, we agree we can use it but it can't be spammed...i.e. you can use it in some situations as a part of a wholesome nutritious balanced attack :D. We play again, and we adhere to the rules of our match...is the gameplay ruined?

My answer is no. But I have a sneaking suspicion that you will say yes it is :) The end result is the same as if Raven nerfed the attack so it can't be spammed.

Do you see my point? It depends on the people playing. And on the internet you're going to get a lot more people playing as their "a$$-fighting alter ego" just because they can get away with it, with practically no consequences. You don't get that playing amongst friends because there's a real price to pay for acting like an a$$hole towards your buddies and coworkers....

TDS

edit: woohoo!! no more Ewok, I'm a Tusken Raider!

Chanke4252
05-15-2002, 11:38 PM
the backslash/backstab was NOT the same in 1.02 than it is in 1.03. I used it in the previous patch and NEVER ONCE got a one hit kill with it. The light stance backstab is the closest you could come to a 1-hit-kill with the backstab/backslash moves. Now, 19/20 times the backslash/backstab moves hits, its a one hit kill. I assume it has something to do with the changes in the damage tables for all moves in version 1.03.

To recap, backslash was useful and powerful in version 1.02, but, despite what 1 or 2 people say, not so powerful that you could wrack up 80 kills by running around ass first.

Milla_Fett
05-16-2002, 12:07 AM
Might it be possible to look at this from a different perspective?

Instead of thinking of game balance in refferance to moves, lets refferance STYLES.

When using the heavy style, there are many advantages against an opponent using light style. Saber knock, damage, and range come to mind. Medium seems to be where it should be now. In the middle. Perhaps some may see no advantage to using medium opposed to light, but again, the base damage, range, and saber knock, coupled with the almost 100% block rate against light style gives it a slight upper hand in my mind (not to mention that nasty jump attack). Now we have light. It does very little damage in normal swings, has a horibble range, and will be blocked 100% of the time against the other two styles. Yes it is fast, and yes it can handle LOOOONG chains, but really, how usefull is such a chain? How much is speed going to help you if your not doing any damage?

The answer? Two little moves that are REALLY easy to screw up. Its not about key press, its about TIMING. If I do an upward slash against an opponent using heavy style (the only way ill get by his defense) and he jumps over me (a bad move, should jump sideways) I can backstab, but only if I time and place it PERFECTLY.

As for the spammers, every game has them, find a way to beat them (absorb), join them (only until they leave) or find a no force server. In my mind the backstab, and slash moves are the only way light style has a fighting chance. Remove them, and you should just remove light style. (NOOOOOOO!!!!!)

KnightHawk420
05-16-2002, 12:19 AM
Originally posted by Vanor


Please do, others did and said there's no differance. I don't see how there could be, in 1.02 pull could knock you down, and in 1.03 pull can knock you down. In 1.02 the back stab/slash was deadly, in 1.03 the back stab/slash is deadly. The only differance I can think of, is perhaps pull knocks you down more now then before.



How did Raven actualy nerf the DFA?

They changed it so it was no longer deadly at the end of the move, they changed it so you couldn't turn in mid air, they changed the key combo to do a DFA some. So basicly they fixed the bugs in the move, made it act like they intended to orginaly, and made it slightly harder to do. Not what I'd consider a nerf personaly.

DFA is still a effective move, and is still used on the servers. It's just not as easy or effective to spam constantly as it was. Just how is making a move less effective as a cheep/spam move a bad thing? It won't stop people from using cheep/spam moves, but it is a step in the right direction.

I believe as well they nerfed it. They adjusted it's damage. It should be a one hit move now that's it difficult to do per the 1.03 adjustments. They did much good in making it more realistic like you mentioned, but they tweaked the damage too, making it relatively useless.

my 2 cents.

Chanke4252
05-16-2002, 02:05 AM
yah, the only reason its screwed up now is because they nerfed/buffed random moves for some reason. The only thing they needed to do is make it so the saber doesnt do full damage when its on the ground in dfa, and make it so they cant rotate. Everything else was great. The damage adjustments were just retarted IMO. But I did like the addition of the regular single player moves instead of the old generic MP moves.

UriDiuM
05-16-2002, 03:01 AM
Erm i may be fairly new to this game but i,m a vetran to games in general, and it took me no time atall to figure out how to get round DFA and the backstab. Personally i just jump over em and and attack them or if the guy is really spamming just keep dodging and jumping till he gets fed up and comes at you swinging madley :D
No move is so powerfull it cant be got round, which means you need to learn some moves/skill, you all seem to want Raven to hand you the game on a plate.
Perhaps you would prefer it if they made it 1 swing only? no diff stances no special moves just forward back left rght and hit, that sounds ideal for most of you that way no one will be able to spam lame moves all the time.
I,m sorry but to expect raven to remove all the powerfull moves from a game just cos you cant be arsed to learn a way round it
seems very lame to me. If I can get round it only havng been playing 3 weeks and even then only a little bit at the end of the day as CS takes up most of my time, then you can too.
Quit maoning and go play Spyro on the playstation it`s probebly more your skill level and quit trying to ruin games for those of us that like a challenge.

Spider AL
05-16-2002, 04:22 PM
No move is so powerfull it cant be got round, which means you need to learn some moves/skill, you all seem to want Raven to hand you the game on a plate.

I'm sorry friend, but you are obviously unaware of the pull/backswing combo, which, when executed properly (as it is by 90% of the people who use it, because it is so easy) is unblockable, and is a certain kill.

If, in a game like uhh, Half-Life TFC say, someone found that by combining the spy's knife with spinning around and jumping one could kill any class in one hit, they'd patch it in the next patch because it's obviously an overpowered move. I am an expert at JO, if anyone is. People accuse me of being cheap when I know I'm just better than they are, but I recognise a REALLY cheap move when I see it. No, I don't get hit by it often, because I use absorb a lot. But Darksiders have no satisfactory defence, and if people want to use powers other than absorb, they have no satisfactory defence.

Therefore, before the game degenerates into nothing but a "who pulls wins" affair, I want to do my utmost to convince Raven to patch it. That's what the people here who are writing lucid and well-thought-out critiques of the 1.03 balance, are trying to do.