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Daank
05-15-2002, 06:23 PM
Enough is enough....
I know it's long but I don't think you will regret reading what I have to say, so PLEASE, read on.

-The new JK2 patch had a few cool tweaks but it seems to be getting further and further from realistic saber battles. I hope I am not the only one with these opinions cuz if I'm not maybe there is a chance for a funner game. While getting a game that has such cool light sabers and abilities like walls running and SOME of the great force powers some things in the game are far from what I would call a "true star wars light saber battle".

-What happened to the idea of blocking? Seems to me the one good blocks in the game happen when there is a RARE saber clash. When I picture a saber battle I think, awsome attacks with awsome blocks and the battle seems to be a long series of parries until someone misses that fatal attack that leads to lost limbs and/or death.

-Where the hell did DRAIN come from, and since when is a jedi so weak minded that he falls victim to another jedi's mind trick? Another thing, since when does a jedi use a rocket launcher or sniper rifle? Seeing seems like a useless force power as well since I can't recall any jedi seeing thru walls or having to actively use the force to counter another jedi's mind trick.

-Heavy stance, ok this is one of the things that makes me leave servers. When someone comes at me with the heavy stance I would like to stand my ground and block the attack, but it's unblockable. When have we seen jedis roll away from another jedis attack? The lack of parry action is enough to make me say "what do you think your some kind of jedi waving your gun around like that?"

-Lack of saber effectiveness. What is the deal here? I have been in situations on many occasions where a guy lifts his arms for a heavy stance attack leaving himself open to a "gut cut" and I run my saber thru his gut just to have him go right thru the attack without flinching just to finish his attack animation. I can't even tell if I do damage AT ALL in these sitaution.

-Absorb? Why do I need to use up my ability to jump just not to be able to jump around at will? In "Return Of The Jedi" when the emperor used lightning it drained him enough for him to be defensless against Vader picking him up and throwing him to his doom.

-Maybe all these things can't be put into a game correctly but it would be nice if someone tried. But wouldn't it be fun to parry with another jedi until the point where one makes a mistake and gets cut in half? I think autoblocking would be a huge improvement along with sabers that kill on touch. Especially in the world of star wars where non-saber weapons are considered to be sloppy and used by the non-jedi. Maybe a choice between jedi or star wars gun-nut? Then maybe mind trick would have a place in the game.

-Anyway there are many things that could make the game more like a star wars experience and I would be ultra addicted if someone actually made it happen. I would do it myself but I am only a programming student with under a year of experience, and it's beyond my skill to be able to mod a game where the SDK has NO SOURCE CODE?!?!?!?! Is the raven team smart enough to know the public can make a better game than thier team? I think so.

-Post comments please, I wanna see what people who agree have to add and I wanna hear what people who disagree have to say as well. I hope people take the time to read this thread since I think people should seriously consider questioning what JK2 should be.

-Maybe someone should start a poll, but I'm not gunna start a poll since I dunno if the community will bash me for this post yet or if they will think it thru and maybe even agree.

Agen
05-15-2002, 06:42 PM
I'm not gonn aflame you or bahs you, i'll jsut correct you and ur lnog psot......

Where the hell did DRAIN come from, and since when is a jedi so weak minded that he falls victim to another jedi's mind trick?

Jk1, do you remember what jerec done to Rahn, that was drain, you coudln't see it but all star wars things are inconsistent.

Another thing, since when does a jedi use a rocket launcher or sniper rifle

Kyle is a merc with jedi pwoers.

Seeing seems like a useless force power as well since I can't recall any jedi seeing thru walls or having to actively use the force to counter another jedi's mind trick.

Well they sensed jedi didn't they. and only in mp it's used to counter, there is no mind trick against mindtrick sicne it does'nt work against jedi.

-Heavy stance, ok this is one of the things that makes me leave servers. When someone comes at me with the heavy stance I would like to stand my ground and block the attack, but it's unblockable. When have we seen jedis roll away from another jedis attack?

well did vader block luek's hits witohut getting his hand chopped of?

Absorb? Why do I need to use up my ability to jump just not to be able to jump around at will? In "Return Of The Jedi" when the emperor used lightning it drained him enough for him to be defensless against Vader picking him up and throwing him to his doom.

Didn't quite cathc that but the emporrer lgihtninged luek for ages. in jk if you doen that you would stop before he did, well he is the emporer

Maybe all these things can't be put into a game correctly but it would be nice if someone tried. But wouldn't it be fun to parry with another jedi until the point where one makes a mistake and gets cut in half? I think autoblocking would be a huge improvement along with sabers that kill on touch. Especially in the world of star wars where non-saber weapons are considered to be sloppy and used by the non-jedi.

Ok, you know how annoying it is with 1 hit moves, so if you made eveyr mvoe liek that then you go crazy with lghit soon as yout tohued he'd be dead.
And auto blocking, yoi block wit hthe force you don't need to think about it, and the if othe rpeople used lgiht it would be so eays fro yolu to get beat. letting it dom itslef is sjut fine.

Is the raven team smart enough to know the public can make a better game than thier team? I think so.
I totally disagree with you there, Raven are greta at making games, and if it wa self ttot thepublic to make it it would be far mre unbalanced than it is now, i mena look what happened all these noobs were asking for things and raven actually gave them it, now it is screwing alot of things up

Maybe someone should start a poll, but I'm not gunna start a poll since I dunno if the community will bash me for this post yet or if they will think it thru and maybe even agree.
You can star ta poll all you want, and if anyoen bashes you, they a msot probably idiots. and remember i aint doing this cos i love the patch, i'm just poniting tihngs otu that you got wrong.

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Agen
05-15-2002, 06:49 PM
Originally posted by boba fett c3po
stop whining whiner

He is stating a point.

Daank
05-15-2002, 07:03 PM
No quotes, but I adrressed your counter arguments in order so please read on. Not an attack on what your saying about what I have said, just some more of my opinions/ideas. No hostility here, so please read on :D

Ok, maybe I have beef with JK1 if it also had drain, but another video game that lucas didn't write is not a good refferense for what a ssber fight should be.

And maybe I feel a jedi merc defies the point of being a jedi. Do I not like the whole idea that drives the game? Maybe. I don't wanna take the game away from you I just want a true to the movies game that I can have fun with.

Maybe seeing should be an auto force? If the "sence" another jedi do you think they constantly drain thier force ability bar to be able to sence another jedi?

Luke faught long and hard with hundreds of blocks before he cut Vader's hand off and when he hit Vader once with the saber the fight was OVER.

Only time I ever saw anyone get hitwith a saber and not lose the battle was when Vader was nicked in the shoulder by luke JUST before he cut Luke's hand off. If you can call that getting hit with a light saber.

My point is that the scene with the emperor zapping Luke with force lightning was the ONLY account that should be studied to recreate this force skill. Maybe the whole force bar system needs a redo.

I would personally love the game if one hit killed as long as it was hard enough to defeat an opponents defense to score that hit. I think that would be really fun IMHO I would feel like a jedi.

Ok, maybe that was a bit of a low blow to raven, but why else would they not let us have the source code? I think the community would make mods far better than the original game in any game that releases the source code. Just look at the #1 action multiplayer game in the world, a little mod called COUNTERSTRIKE, while it's glory may have passed it WAS a far better game than half-life before valve bought it back.

Maybe I will start a poll eventually when I can organize my opinions beyond a ramble, there are so many things i wanna say but I don't think you would read this post if it got any longer.

P.S. And a side note to "boba fett c3po" If your not gunna partake in the conversation in a mature manner please keep your ass out of my topic.

P.S.S. Some people like JK2 cuz it's a good game. Some people (I am one of them) want a game that lets you be a jedi like we have all wanted to be since Lucas came up with the "star wars" legacy.

Agen
05-15-2002, 07:14 PM
Argh.. my friend, you posses froce long post, also peps with this gift is kurgan and stormhammer, i can't remembe ne1 else but you write eveyrtihng in the oen go that i can't discuss it good sicne there is so much. but i am going to tell you one thing that there ehas always been 2 camps of people, people who want to paly in the starwars universe and peps who want to play a jedi in the star wars universe. So eveyroen has different opinions. BTW Lucas says eveytrihng is qutie unofficial except for the movies, the books the mag, the games. so you can't argue with me about that ;) next time paot in bits.

VIO
05-15-2002, 09:17 PM
the source code isn't give to people because in reality weather you like it or not the game isn't made just for you to have fun (very important though) its to make money for the people you make it

TreeHugger800
05-16-2002, 02:56 AM
Agen_Terminator, you absolutely have the worst spelling and grammar ever. It almost hurts to read your posts, as they are largely unreadable. Next time, please LOOK OVER your posts before submitting them.

Anyways, I somewhat agree with making the saber fights more "cinematic" because that is really what this movie is all about. When I finally reached the parts of the game where I could fight with a lightsaber, I had this overwhelming feeling that I was almost participating in the movies. If Raven could do anything to make that feeling more pronounced, it would be great, and I think many of your suggestions would be a great starting point.

Pedantic
05-16-2002, 03:41 AM
Originally posted by TreeHugger800
Agen_Terminator, you absolutely have the worst spelling and grammar ever. It almost hurts to read your posts, as they are largely unreadable. Next time, please LOOK OVER your posts before submitting them.

I agree...it is most painful.

Daank
05-17-2002, 07:07 PM
bump

Chanke4252
05-17-2002, 07:44 PM
Well, a mind trick only works against another jedi who doesnt have force sight. On the higher force level servers I always put one level into force sight. So, in other words, mind trick only works against you if you let it.

Also, Heavy stance is blockable so long as they dont do a downward slash. The thing is, heavy stance is so slow that you can tell what stance they are in and what move they are doing well before it hits you. Unless you are brain dead you should be able to compensate for this and move out of the way of the attacks you cant block. So dont whine about that

On the issue of dodging attacks, jedi are extremely mobile and thus will have the option of dodging most attacks. So in other words, dodging attacks is a valid defense and is not unheard of in the starwars universe.

"Sabers that kill on touch" is also a very bad idea. Some sacrifices have to be made for gameplay since we dont REALLY have the force. If we had super reflexes and could see everything in slow motion then that might be ok but we dont, so we wouldnt be able to have satisfying saber fights longer than 5 seconds (which im sure you would complain about also).


To be honest, I feel dumber for reading this post, but I do agree with you on one thing, that being sabers being too weak. Since the patch the damage has been jacked around with. They say it does more damage in the middle of the move and less at the beginning and end or something. It doesnt seem like they increased the damage in the middle (except maybe in light stance). All I notice is them decreasing the damage. This really gimps the medium stance and the heavy stance. While the heavy stance isnt useless yet, it is still not as powerful as it should be IMHO. Medium stance is now pretty much useless now though, and it was perfectly ballanced prior to the patch. My thoughts on the issue, dont fix what dont need fixing. The damage table change was a huge mistake and most people thought it was fine before the patch. Since they screwed around with it, most people have to resort to "ass fighting" to get kills, which ruined the multiplayer game for me almost entirely.


Thats my two cents.

Agen
05-17-2002, 08:04 PM
Agen_Terminator, you absolutely have the worst spelling and grammar ever. It almost hurts to read your posts, as they are largely unreadable. Next time, please LOOK OVER your posts before submitting them.

I got a broken thumb, does that rest your whining?

FalloutGod
05-17-2002, 10:15 PM
Originally posted by Agen_Terminator
I'm not gonn aflame you or bahs you, i'll jsut correct you and ur lnog psot......



Jk1, do you remember what jerec done to Rahn, that was drain, you coudln't see it but all star wars things are inconsistent.



Kyle is a merc with jedi pwoers.



Well they sensed jedi didn't they. and only in mp it's used to counter, there is no mind trick against mindtrick sicne it does'nt work against jedi.



well did vader block luek's hits witohut getting his hand chopped of?



Didn't quite cathc that but the emporrer lgihtninged luek for ages. in jk if you doen that you would stop before he did, well he is the emporer



Ok, you know how annoying it is with 1 hit moves, so if you made eveyr mvoe liek that then you go crazy with lghit soon as yout tohued he'd be dead.
And auto blocking, yoi block wit hthe force you don't need to think about it, and the if othe rpeople used lgiht it would be so eays fro yolu to get beat. letting it dom itslef is sjut fine.


I totally disagree with you there, Raven are greta at making games, and if it wa self ttot thepublic to make it it would be far mre unbalanced than it is now, i mena look what happened all these noobs were asking for things and raven actually gave them it, now it is screwing alot of things up


You can star ta poll all you want, and if anyoen bashes you, they a msot probably idiots. and remember i aint doing this cos i love the patch, i'm just poniting tihngs otu that you got wrong.

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Not to be picky but when when typing plz plz plz go slower. I can barely understand what your trying to say. Since your reading posts and posting a reply anyway. You got enoguh time to go slower. :rolleyess

BlackDove
05-17-2002, 10:18 PM
Thank god for my scrool button...I didn't read any of that :D

WNxBizarre
05-17-2002, 10:20 PM
LOL! You and me both :)

Daank
05-17-2002, 10:34 PM
Well, Chanke I wasn't saying dodging an attack shouldn't be an option. I just said there should not be unblockable attacks, for every action there is an equal and instant reaction so it seems to me any attack a jedi can perform another jedi could block with a duplicate attack where the power of the attack would clash.

And as far as sabers killing on touch I wouldn't complain if i was a fool enough to get cut down after 5 seconds of a fight, I would suck it up and try harder to be the one to score the killing blow next time.

If the blocking was as powerful as attacking this would not be the case anyway, with any type of autoblocking and a lack of unblockable moves the only way you would die is if you got hit from the back/side, or someone used the right move to counter one of your attacks where you left yourself open to be countered. Don't take this in the wrong way but I am gunna write this in caps so everyone who looks at th epost doesn't miss it:

IF AUTOBLOCKING WAS ADDED AND THE ONLY WAYS TO DIE WERE TO BE STRUCK FROM AN UNGUARDED ANGLE OR STRUCK WHEN YOU DROP YOUR GUARD TO PERFORM AN ATTACK WOULDN'T THAT BE FUN?

Along with other tweaks of coarse, many of them.

RedWolf4000
05-17-2002, 10:37 PM
Ok the game you dream of sounds great and all. It cant be done, ever. Ok your playing this game right...and your doing your "realistic" saber battling, remember, that saber cant slash ya, your gonna die. Mean while, one of the other 15 likely to run up behind you people, does just that, runs up behind you slashes you and your dead. Wouldnt you slam the keyboard and scream out "cheap ass sh*t" then would you come back here, and write another post how when they sneak up behind you they shoudl have to watch like good jedi's should. I'm not bashing you, it just wouldnt work, you have to use a little imagination. I can find mp servers with respectful players. I myself when given the chance with another will turn off my saber, bow, fight, wait my turn, while other 2 fight, and sometimes they do for me too. But most people dont, they see ya, there comming for ya, end of story. It cant work, you gotta just go with how it works. There is one thing i agree with though, a Merc jedi, its an oxymoron, a jedi cant be a merc. Mercs kill for there benifit when they must correct? Luke wouldnt be too A-Ok with all that at his accademy. (But then again, i dont really give a sh*t, i just wanna slash people down with my Heavy stance and watch em fly back 10 feet and die without them blocking!! Have some fun!) Later.

Daank
05-17-2002, 10:39 PM
I just saw episode 2 last night and when i got home i wanted to do nothing but play out some jedi goodness.

When I joined the server I decided to play on the only moves that people got kills with were backstabs, backswipes, and death from above.

Even a clean hit seemed to always get countered by one of these 3 moves. Are these the only 3 moves worth performing now? Seems they took any amount of sparring skill out with the effectiveness of a few special moves that are far to powerful giving the state of saber damage......

Daank
05-17-2002, 10:44 PM
Honestly RedWolf I would love it if I had to constantly watch my back for a sneaky jedi who wants to cut me down from behind, I think it would be fun to get out of the way just in time and fight back.

I always find myself fighting multiple foes at once, and I pride myself on the ability not to get stuck in the back. And I think it should be one of the most important skills in the game.

hiausd
05-18-2002, 12:31 AM
I agree that there needs to be more parrying. It would be more like a saber fight rather than hack and slash.

Agen
05-18-2002, 01:32 PM
I got a broken thumb
Did you read anyo f that?

Sutek
05-18-2002, 03:10 PM
I am only a programming student with under a year of experience, and it's beyond my skill to be able to mod a game where the SDK has NO SOURCE CODE?!?!?!?! Is the raven team smart enough to know the public can make a better game than thier team? I think so.

Is it just me, or did you, who describes yourself above, compare yourself to a group of people who have been writing games for far longer than you have probably even HEARD of programming? I think you did. Speaking as someone who has little experience of coding games, but who's fiancee WORKS in the industry, I think you are full of it. The public is a bunch of good for nothing whiners who don't KNOW what they want, except maybe football and beer. Secondly, did you see "sponsored by Linux" anywhere on the game box? Or the website? Anywhere? It's not open source code for a reason, dummy.

I personally don't agree with some of the changes made in the patch. I think the blocking chance is set way too high. do you see me whining about it? (well, maybe a little. I do mention it too often :> ) Do you see me calling the programmers nasty names? No. I *KNOW* how hard and long they have worked to make this game what it is, and I will not stand by and read your idiot posts saying how stupid they are and how bad a job they did, all because it's not the game YOU want it to be.

Daank, Keeping an eye on what's going on behind you IS one of the most important skills in any combat game, it's a skill called "situational awareness". I only wish I could see some peoples faces when I cut them down because they weren't paying attention to their surroundings (but similarly, I only do that when they don't appear to be in a one-on-one situation, and I don't join in when someone else tries to interfere unless it's to remove the intruder).

As for the current effectiveness of backstab/sweeps, I think it is largely an illusion due to the fact that no-one can get a NORMAL swing to penetrate with any great effect. It is in fact possible, but VERY difficult (atm it is, I think I'm getting the hang of it now though). It does work, and makes for much better saber fights in fact, but there needs to be a sort of agreement on what kind of thing goes and what isn't (for example, no pull/backstab whoring, occasionally is fine, but not as a primary attack mode). Try a no force duel server (without throw), you might be pleasantly surprised.

Daank
05-18-2002, 06:59 PM
Sutek, I wasn't comparing myself to Raven's team at all...
I was expressing my dissapointment with them in thier lack of source in thier sdk. I don't personally see how they can even try to call what they released an sdk. I had long looked forward to being able to play with thier sdk until I saw it was meerly map and model tools. Why didn't they just call it mapping and modelling tools?

I can't state enough how much it dissapointed me, and I wasn't saying I could do better, but who knows. And if you think the public consists of morons who don't know what they want and don't know how to make a good product, I think you are sadly mistaken. Some of the best mods/skins/maps I have seen have come from the public, gvin' there are alot of idiots out there, the public turns into the proffessionals....

If you were to look at the devs before they got jobs do you think they were totally stupid? I think not, everyone has to start somewhere.

And givin' that I'm sure Raven's team worked thier ass off this game it has a great cornerstone. But I think if they gave the ability to modify to the public, the public could make multiple versions of gameplay so that more people would stay playing and less people would quit when a bad patch is released. And yes, I know thier #1 reason for making and updating the game is to make money..... that much is obvious, but i feel with taking on a project like making a star wars game (which has so many followers who know alot about the media) they take on a responsibility to keep the public happy. I mean they are working on the gaming comunity's version of star wars, I would think they would want to give the public a game as close to star wars as they are able to provide. After all star wars is one of the most well knows fictional stories in the world, if I was to take on a job like that at any point in time, (experience) I would do whatever possible to make the game as close to what people imagine acting out a jedi saber duel is.

And the additude of game devs that say: "We know what you want, you have no clue" is being ignorant to the public and a bit big headed. I feel the only reasons some games make any money at all is because the game is the only choice of it's type and no one else has done it better YET.

Don't take this wrong, I am not trying to rip of Raven's team. (I will still rip on them forever for releasing an "SDK" with no source) They laid down an awsome backbone for what could be one of the best games every made, but it lacks something. People disagree on what it lacks but everyone agrees it's not the game they want to play, I hope Raven either comes up with some serious tweaks or hands it over to the public so they can make the changes they want to see.

P.S. I'm really sorry about my rambling long posts.....