PDA

View Full Version : Master Cyphadeous?


kahraazy
05-16-2002, 07:18 PM
I'm not sure about the spelling of Cyphadeous (sai-fa-dee-us?)

Who is this mysterious Jedi Master which supposedly made the original order of Jango Fett clones 10 years ago? I sorta got lost in the whole explanation, why was everyone so indifferent about why and who made this army in the first place?

Testicon
05-16-2002, 07:28 PM
i believe they were referring to sidious, who is darth sidious, who is chancellor palpatine in episode II. they refer to him as dead, but i believe that the jedi council was just making that up to hide something darker.

JediCrow
05-16-2002, 07:29 PM
I don't think they were indifferent. It's just that they were busy conducting an investigation, and the fact that this jedi master supposedly ordered this clone army posthumously was another piece of the puzzle they were trying to solve.

Natty
05-16-2002, 07:38 PM
I wouldn't worry about it too much, even I kinda lost the plot with it in episode:1- although I always knew Sideous=Palpatine. It did get explained to me, but I forgot how it worked out. You can tell he ain't up to no good anyway ;) Just look at the comment he makes to Ani about being the best Jedi he's ever seen

Ice (Sic)kle
05-16-2002, 09:06 PM
I think sifadyas is a different person because the jedi would be able to realize palpatine and sifadyas were the same.

IceSt0rm
05-16-2002, 09:23 PM
Cyfadius is a different person. Simply used as a cover up name to create the clone army and then he was killed so they couldn't find much amiss.

matt--
05-16-2002, 09:28 PM
10 years ago was ep1. Palpatine/Sidious must have ordered the clones after the events of ep1.

Didn't Jango say he was working for Tyrannus?

xSauronx
05-16-2002, 10:10 PM
i was under the impression Syphadius was either another "made-up" name from palpatine, or that it was suppoused to be Sidious and the Caminos coupldnt pronounce it for ****.

aieljafar
05-16-2002, 10:45 PM
I figure heck, the plot really doesnt make sense, so why bother too much with the particulars. I felt the same way with Episode 1.

Darth Iroel
05-16-2002, 11:22 PM
If you remember obi wan said that syphadius was dead longer than 10 years ago

etherealsilk
05-16-2002, 11:45 PM
Wasn't it mentioned that he was on the Jedi Council somewhere? So he couldn't very well be just some made up name then.

Maybe he was a Jedi Master that got seduced by the dark side and is now palpatine, but then the other council member would recognize him.

Another theory is that palpatine was using him, this mystery character, the same way he is using Dooku. Then palpatine simply gets rid of him once he's done, leaving no evidance to trace a link to himself and ruin his plans. What do you guys think?

Zaarin
05-16-2002, 11:45 PM
Obiwan actually gave two dates in the movie, one was over ten years, and the other was a bit less than ten (from memory).

Anyway here goes:

Palpatine = Darth Sideous, Sypherdeous
Count Dooku = Darth Tyrannus

The reason that the Jedi don't know that Palpatine is evil/whats going on, is that the dark side is clouding the jedi's vision. An entire scene is devoted to this, when they discuss whether they should tell the senate that the jedi aren't effective anymore. They choose not to because at the moment, it's only the sith lord that knows they are weak, and others may take advantage of it.

Quite a lot is explained throughout the movie, but you just have to listen for it.

Zindell
05-17-2002, 01:13 AM
Yeah I noticed that scene and as far as why the council wouldn'T recognize a former member is maybe why they put emphasis on a character who was a changling. Now I'm really reaching here of course but thats the only thing i could think of as to why they wouldn't recognize him.

Cracken
05-17-2002, 01:16 AM
His name is spelt Sifo Dias, I believe, I know it was two separate names. It DOES sound an awful lot like Sidious, which is quite likely.

avenger_au
05-17-2002, 06:23 AM
So basically the explanation is that Palpatine = Sidious = Sifa Dias = Jedi that was thought to be killed 10 years ago ?

This doesn't make sense!

My head hurts!

Where do they think Palpatine came from then - unless Sifa Dias and Palpatine were never in the same place at the same time?

This works once Sifa Dias is supposedly killed - but while he is meant to be alive - it doesn't quite work..

I'm happy with Palpatine = Sidious. But this whole Sifa Dias thing is driving me nuts.

This is all far too confusing.

Natty
05-17-2002, 07:16 AM
Palpatine=clone of Darth Sideoous. There. The End. My hear hurts. Stupid plot holes that don't make sense.

OK- seriously, if I remember correctly that someone said to me once when I didn't get the whole Palpatine/Sideous thing coz I was so losted over it, Palpatine is a smoke screen or some crap, he's not real, a haloucination (blah@my crappy spelling) or something or other. I don't know whether that's true or not, that's why I'm still confused. They're the same person but not :confused:

I give up- it makes a funky story. However, if Sifadous (the good jedi?) is Palpatine and Sifedous was thought to be killed 10years ago, wouldn't people have noticed when Palpatine rocks up a few years later and looks exactly the same as Sifadous? I mean I don't think they have plastic surgeons in the galaxy far, far away... do they????

Perniciosus
05-17-2002, 07:40 AM
Ah yes, the SifoDyas Condundrum (wow, that almost sounds collegiate!)...

It is a tad bit confusing in both the book and the movie. The way I saw it, SifoDyas = Sidious = Palpatine, but as others had pointed out, this would make little sense given the fact that Palpatine works so closely with the Jedi Council. Surely one of them would have known that Palpatine was actually the supposedly dead Jedi.

I think a lot of this could have been avoided by having a bit of dialogue between Mace and Yoda or Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan about SifoDyas being a fictious name. However, instead of doing that, they all admitted that SifoDyas was, in fact, a former Jedi, which makes the whole durn thing confuzzling.

IMO, if they had said that SifoDyas was someone who had never been a Jedi and was impersonating one to the Kaminans, it would have left the Sidious/Palpatine issue in tact and they would have still had an ironclad reason why Kamino had been removed from the archives because Dooku left the order around the same time as SifoDyas's 'death'.

The only OTHER possible explination is that Dooku went to Kamino on order from Sidious and presented himself as Master SifoDyas. That could possibly stay consistant with the time frame, but, again, gets lost because Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda appear to confirm that SifoDyas was, in fact, a former Jedi...

Ack.. my head is spinning now.

xSauronx
05-17-2002, 07:44 AM
aieljafar is absolutely right, screw it

patchx
05-17-2002, 07:57 AM
pffffft

how obvious is it?

dooku killed sifo dias 10 years ago (which is when he left the jedi order) asone of his first missions for palpatine

he ripped off his jedi ID or whatever and then went to the kaminoans under the name of sifo dias (the guy he killed) and ordered the clone army as per palpatines instructions and paid for them using palpatines funds (which, being a dark lord of the sith and with his connections with the trade federation and stuff , would be considerable)

the kaminoans are so far away from the centralized republic that they might have heard of a jedi master called sifo dias but not of his (back then) recent death

the look mace and yoda give each other when they hear the name makes me think they knew about him getting killed under suspicious circumstances

-patch

thelegalbeagle
05-17-2002, 08:08 AM
...and Dooku, before he left the Jedi, erased reference to Kamino from the Jedi Archives. The system vanishes from all records (apart from, no doubt, the Trade Federation) and for 10 years the Clone Army is built waiting for the day that Palpatine needs them...

Topdan
05-17-2002, 08:14 AM
Guys...

What if Palpatine is not Darth Sidious...

Wraith 8
05-17-2002, 08:19 AM
the clones were odered 10 years before ep2. and that momet palpatine became chancellor (sp?) he ordered the clones under the name of a dead jedi..... that is all... no more and no less.

something still puzzles me tho.... Jango was hired to stand for the clones 10 years before that...... he was hired by Darth tyranus.... a.k.a. count dooku..... BUT.... there can only be 2 sith at a time... darth sidious... has always been there,... but 10 years before that... Darth Maul was there too.... how can Jango be hired by Dooku then??? casue that would mean there were 2 sith.... what do you think..

Perniciosus
05-17-2002, 08:24 AM
Originally posted by Topdan
Guys...

What if Palpatine is not Darth Sidious...

Then you want us to reject everything that was shown in Empire Strikes Back and Return of the Jedi.

Emperor Palpatine was a Dark Lord of the Sith - the Sith Master, Vader as his successful apprentice. This is apparent by the relationship shown between the two - Vader calling the Emperor his 'Master', and the Emperor opening a can of whoop-ass on Luke.

Further, this is also asking to forget about Sidious in Episode 1, assuring that the Senate would do nothing about the issue on Naboo (who else could make this claim but someone preparing to be the head of the Senate?) and Dooku's limited lines in AotC where he states that the Senate is under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith. Dooku goes so far as to talk about Darth Sidious being aligned with the Trade Federation's Viceroy during the happenings that made up TPM.

So, logic only concludes that Palpatine must be Sidious. Darth Maul was his apprentice; Dooku was his servant and Anakin becomes his most successful apprentice - and he is later referred to as Emperor Palpatine. I think that by now there should be no doubt, at all, that Palpatine=Sidious.

thelegalbeagle
05-17-2002, 08:26 AM
Dooku obviously became Sidious' apprentice after the demise of Darth Maul, his first tasks being, I suspect :

1. to eliminate Sipha Dias
2. to enlist Jango Fett for the DNA supply
3. to order the Clone Army
4. to erase all record of Kamino in the archives
5. to leave the Jedi Order and commence moves towards separatism in disgruntled systems

Baal Fett
05-17-2002, 08:27 AM
well prolly happened right after Ep I cus Dooku left the council right after Qui Gon died aka Maul dying too....

heh ur explanation is the best so far....but it doesn't seem nearly as clear in the movie...not intuitive at all....

the whole Jango/Dooku thing confuses me too...Jango Helps build the clone army...then leaves and helps build the droid army? but then the armies fight each other? why? Dooku is explaining to his allies about overthrowing the republic..but he help build the clone army to defend the republic? That whole duality thing is way hard to follow in the movie...another one of my gripes with it....

Wraith 8
05-17-2002, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Baal Fett
well prolly happened right after Ep I cus Dooku left the council right after Qui Gon died aka Maul dying too....

heh ur explanation is the best so far....but it doesn't seem nearly as clear in the movie...not intuitive at all....

the whole Jango/Dooku thing confuses me too...Jango Helps build the clone army...then leaves and helps build the droid army? but then the armies fight each other? why? Dooku is explaining to his allies about overthrowing the republic..but he help build the clone army to defend the republic? That whole duality thing is way hard to follow in the movie...another one of my gripes with it.... beacause that way.. palpatine gets in a legal way the fulkl power to do what he likes....in the senate and with the republic

thelegalbeagle
05-17-2002, 08:47 AM
The whole point of building the droid army is to present a threat to the Republic, so as to allow Palpatine to be given emergency powers. He then utilises the Clone Army that has secretly been built to put down the insurgents, thereby eliminating those that have been bankrolling his plans. He will appear as the heroic Chancellor who saved the Republic when bureaucracy was killing it. It will seem only right that he is asked to maintain his powers for the good of the Republic, by which time it will be too late....

Zindell
05-17-2002, 11:14 AM
it wasnt just jango playing both sides it was dooku. Jango was just following dooku around

Broode
05-17-2002, 11:30 AM
The Empire has always been compared with Nazi Germany in the 1930s and 40s. This movies brings the comparison between the two even closer - Hitler came to power by sending his Stormtroopers(!!!) to create chaos in Germany, convincing the parliament to give him Emergency Powers(!!!!!) that effectively made him a dictator.

It can be clearly seen that Sidious is one evil bloke with huge plans. He causes the separitists to create a droid army for use against the Republic, then uses that as a way to convince the senate to give him emergency powers. Then he uses the clone army that he ordered 10 years before under a false name, masquerading (or Dooku masquerading, it doesn't matter) as a dead Jedi. He obviously has huge plans for Episode 3

thrEEpaGe
05-17-2002, 01:51 PM
His name is spelled Sifo-Dyas.

I am almost 100% sure that that is Palpatine.

thrEEpaGe
05-17-2002, 01:58 PM
Originally posted by Perniciosus
Ah yes, the SifoDyas Condundrum (wow, that almost sounds collegiate!)...

It is a tad bit confusing in both the book and the movie. The way I saw it, SifoDyas = Sidious = Palpatine, but as others had pointed out, this would make little sense given the fact that Palpatine works so closely with the Jedi Council. Surely one of them would have known that Palpatine was actually the supposedly dead Jedi.

I think a lot of this could have been avoided by having a bit of dialogue between Mace and Yoda or Mace, Yoda and Obi-Wan about SifoDyas being a fictious name. However, instead of doing that, they all admitted that SifoDyas was, in fact, a former Jedi, which makes the whole durn thing confuzzling.

IMO, if they had said that SifoDyas was someone who had never been a Jedi and was impersonating one to the Kaminans, it would have left the Sidious/Palpatine issue in tact and they would have still had an ironclad reason why Kamino had been removed from the archives because Dooku left the order around the same time as SifoDyas's 'death'.

The only OTHER possible explination is that Dooku went to Kamino on order from Sidious and presented himself as Master SifoDyas. That could possibly stay consistant with the time frame, but, again, gets lost because Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda appear to confirm that SifoDyas was, in fact, a former Jedi...

Ack.. my head is spinning now.

By the way, Sifo-Dyas was a Jedi Master, serving on the Jedi council, being a "leading member."

I agree with you that Sifo-Dyas is Palpatine and Sidious simply because that is the obvious explanation. The dialogue between Mace and Yoda basically gives slack to all kinds of explanations, because they cannot see anything happening with the Force. Also, the argument that the Council would have noticed that Palpatine had the Force shadow of Sifo-Dyas is flawed (as are similar theories paralleling that one). They obviously didn't see his rise to power as Emperor, and could not tell he had force power at ALL.

*I have to switch computers I will finish this post in a few minutes.*

Vanor
05-17-2002, 03:08 PM
Originally posted by thrEEpaGe
His name is spelled Sifo-Dyas.

I am almost 100% sure that that is Palpatine.

How does that work... The console thinks he's dead, but they work closely with Palpatine. There's a rather large whole in the logic that states palp=Sifo-Dyas.

I mean, if Sifo-Dyas was a full fledged Jedi, then why don't any of the current Jedi refer to Palpatine as Sifo-Dyas? They would have to know it's the same person. And Sifo-Dyas died aroudn 10 years ago according to Ep2, or about the time of Ep1. Palpatine was a senator prior to this, and I don't think a Jedi could be a senator and member of the Jedi Console.

Vanor
05-17-2002, 03:13 PM
Oh and my own personal theory about where Dokuu came from.

Granted there can only be 2 sith at a time... But I wouldn't be surprised if the Master has serveral people lined up to take the apprentice's place if needed. People that are on the verge of being turned to the dark side, but not quite there yet. Dokuu could of been one of those people.

Follow along and see if this makes sense.

Sidious basicly rased Maul from the time he was a baby, making him into a powerfull sith warrior. Durning Ep1 Maul kills Qui-Gon, and then is killed by Obi-Wan.

Sidious now needs a new lacky/apprentice and needs one quick, things are starting to happen and he doesn't have 20 years to rase a new sith warrior from childhood. So instead he pushes Dokuu over the edge and turns him to the darkside. Dokuu was a full fledged Jedi Master, so he wouldn't need much training by Sidious to be a powerful sith warrior.

Hal_Horn
05-17-2002, 05:20 PM
It is Sifo-Dyas, straight from the script.

I believe there was a real Jedi master named Sifo-Dyas, but after he died Sidious used his name to place an order for the clone army. Maybe Sidious even killed him in order to use his name.

Naphtali
05-17-2002, 05:45 PM
Another reason for playing both sides is that yes you get the republics clone army, but the commerce guild,trade federation and clans, are developing a planetery weapon as you seen the deathstar which the republic would create, but loyal sciencetist to the sepratist would develop the weapon to destroy the republic.
So that and the clones gives the most powerful position the Sith.

Djinn Altis{S}
05-17-2002, 05:45 PM
Sifa dius or however you spell it has to have existed, for if he died, how could you not be able to tell he was palpatine. Dooku is playing both sides because of what I explained in my previous post under the title of "about qui gon in episode 2 ..." Go read that post and u will understand the whole scenario with Dooku and Qui Gon and the whole shabang

DarthNoodles
05-17-2002, 06:00 PM
This is all a little confusing for me too but here's my take:

Palpatine, Sidious, and Sifo-Dyas are all connected but maybe not the same people.

The council knows something about Sifo-Dyas that they're not saying. The silence and look between Yoda and Windu was very telling.

But, Why wasn't Sifo-Dyas on the council for EP1?

But, then Sifo-Dyas can't directly BE Sidious if Sifo-Dyas WAS on the council because Sidious looks exactly like Palpatine so they would have recognized him.

But, the names Sifo-Dyas and Sidious are too close for them to be separate people.

And then there's Sidious \ Palpatine who I think are separate people. There's no way the Dark-Side could have clouded the Jedi's THAT much that the most powerful force users in the Galaxy (Yoda, Windu, Anakin) could not feel a disturbance. The Dark-Side could probably cloud it enough that they can't see WHAT is happening or other details, but they MUST be able to feel a disturbance at the least. With this in mind, I think one of them is a clone of the other.

But, somehow Palpatine develops force powers VERY late in life.

Like I said it's all pretty confusing and at this point there's holes in everybodies theories.

Vanor
05-17-2002, 06:54 PM
Originally posted by DarthNoodles
But, the names Sifo-Dyas and Sidious are too close for them to be separate people.

But, somehow Palpatine develops force powers VERY late in life.


Ummm how many people in the US have the last name of Smith? Basing your arugment purely on how much their names sound alike is kinda flimsy.

And I think there's way to much pointing to the fact that Palpatine and Sidious are the same person to be debated. Why would Sidious setup someone else as Emperor, and what happend to him? How did Vader become the apprentice of Palpatine, if Palpatine isn't a sith master before Anakin turns to the dark side?

No the idea they're not the same person puts way to many holes into the whole story.

Rainman54
05-17-2002, 08:29 PM
Its pretty obvious to me whats happening in the story, Sidious is playing both sides against each other (separatists and Republic) to get them to go to war with each other (clone war). This war will give him (palpatine) emergency powers while at the same time weakening the republic. With the republic in disarray from the clone wars he will consolidate his power and make himself emperor. I don't think he ever wanted the separatists to succeed, but it was part of his plan to gain power.

Naphtali
05-17-2002, 09:01 PM
ANd of course he gets the deathstar plans from the sepratist.

tardka
05-17-2002, 09:05 PM
This is a possible idea that came to my mind as I was reading these posts.
Sifo Dias could have been a name Darth Maul used to order the clones for Darth Sideous. It makes more sense when you think that they say he died 10 years ago and TPM was 10 years before this one and darth maul dies at the end.
The only thing that contradicts this is that the jedi said they knew a Sifo Dias and if i remember right they had no idea who darth maul was when they saw him.. but there are ways for it to still work out regardless of this fact.
Thought i would contribute my idea even though it might not nescisarly be a strong one, it is still one to consider.

reddeath210
05-17-2002, 09:43 PM
I believe that Sifa-Dyas was killed by either Dooku or Sidious, so that his name could be used to order the creation of the clone army. I also believe that Dooku is trying to play both sides as well, so that he can get rid of Sidious and maybe take his place or something. Why else would he tell Obi Wan about a dark lord of the sith controlling the Senate. He knows that Obi Wan could possibly refuse his proposal to join him, and then Obi Wan would tell the Jedi Council what Dooku has said. And of course Obi Wan does tell the Council, because at the end of the movie, when Mace Windu and Yoda are talking, they both agree that they should keep a close eye on the Senate. So, if Dooku is trying to get rid of Sidious, then that's all the more reason for Sidious to get Anakin to kill Dooku in Episode 3 and take his place, which I believe will happen.

yahoo999
05-17-2002, 10:26 PM
Sifo-Dyas= Darth Maul ????
darth maul died 10 years ago, which is the same time Sifo-Dyas died

Rainman54
05-18-2002, 03:52 AM
Yes, he get the death star plans from the separatists on geonosis. However, i have heard many people ask "how come it took them so long to build the 1st ds if the 2nd was built in a couple of years?" I think the answer is pretty simple. Those were just plans for the station, it hadn't started being built then! It is possible to have plans for something without building it. Its obvious palpatine comes over these plans later (possibly episode 3) and as emperor orders it to be built.

Djinn Altis{S}
05-18-2002, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by DarthNoodles
And then there's Sidious \ Palpatine who I think are separate people. There's no way the Dark-Side could have clouded the Jedi's THAT much that the most powerful force users in the Galaxy (Yoda, Windu, Anakin) could not feel a disturbance. The Dark-Side could probably cloud it enough that they can't see WHAT is happening or other details, but they MUST be able to feel a disturbance at the least. With this in mind, I think one of them is a clone of the other.

But, somehow Palpatine develops force powers VERY late in life.

Like I said it's all pretty confusing and at this point there's holes in everybodies theories.

Man do you not know a SINGLE thing about the differences between the light and dark side? The dark side cannot be sensed, they cloud the minds of jedi, and jedi cannot see into the future when they are clouded like the Jedi council has been ever since Sidious showed up, so yes, SIDIOUS AND PALPATINE HAVE TO BE THE SAME GUY GENIUS!

fueldawg
05-18-2002, 01:54 PM
ok, they said that sifodeus was dead, but remember in the original trilogy they also said luke's father was dead. Instead, he had just turned to the dark side...maybe same thing here? I seem to like the explaination that he's not dead...

BlackDove
05-18-2002, 02:06 PM
Just...uhh I went to see the movie two times, and as we got subtitles I could see the spelling of the name

It's Sifa Dyas

Just so everyone knows ;)

rylmonkey
05-18-2002, 06:56 PM
Sypherdeous was probalbly just 1 of the lost twenty and probably just got killed after he ordered the clone army

manny_c444
05-18-2002, 07:09 PM
Palpantine ordered the troops on Sefi Dios's name after epsiode 1, but if he was ever a real Jedi he probably died beofre Episode 1 even started.

dorain8
05-18-2002, 08:00 PM
they are the same person
the music #'s are the smae for the both of them
and their accent is the same

AND IF YOU LOOK CLOSELY THEY BOTH HAVE THE SAME BUT CHIN

did anyone else notice papatne was rather pale in this movie

P33K@J3W
05-18-2002, 08:05 PM
Cyphadious = Sidious

Sidous = Palpanine

Palpanine = Changling

Why?

Did ya see Zam Wheelel die? - See the true form of the Changling - Darkskinned and wrinkly - Just like Sidous in 4,5, and 6. Te Jedis do not recognise Palpanine cuse he looked al wrinkly and **** when he was a Jedi Master. He faked his Death before episode 1 (right before) and started the clone army and his attempt to take over the senate. In Episode 2 he compleates both goals - he has ammased a clone army to controll and gotten full controll of the republic. He also has ammased a robotic army as his Sith counterpart. All has gone according to plan. He has two large scale armys at his disposal.

Sorry for the SPELINKING I was in a hurry.

SharaFett
05-19-2002, 11:51 AM
just curious- who was that ostrage-looking jedi on the jedi council in ep:1? was he of the same species as the people raising the clone army? if so, it may have been him

Dark4ces
05-20-2002, 04:09 PM
Maybe Palp has a brother or even better, a twin brother that has not been disclosed yet...


Who was Sidious' Master when he was the apprentice? Darth Bane?


D4

Funkyhead
05-20-2002, 05:40 PM
As said before there are wholes in anyones theories

I personally thonk that Sidious and Palpatine are the same person
It could be explained that the jedi council (epecially anakin, mace and yoda) do not discover him in ep2 because he is not in personal contact with them (always some kind of distance between the senate and the jedi council)

but mace and yoda talked about something which is disturbing their feelings (eg the dark master)

I am also agreeing with some of you who say that sifo dias name was only used by the sith in order to order the clone army ... etc.

in which way sifo dias died is probably not too important

(sorry about my writing but i am german native speaker)

greets funkyhead

Nebelwerfer_
05-20-2002, 06:16 PM
okay, for all you people thinking sidious and palpy are different people, now hear this: they are played by the same actor, case closed. I dont think lucas did this to save money... they are the same character. THe only other possible explanation for this would be that palpatine is a clone of sidious, but I cant see the logic in that. As for syfa dious.... blarg! It all was making sense until mace and yoda said he was part of the jedi counsil till he died. It sounded at first like he was just sidious in disguise, but yoda and mace thwarted that idea. Sypha Dious was either

1. Darth Maul... no wait, darth maul wastn't part of the jedi counsel

2. Some jedi master that sidious killed and took his identity to fool the kaminoans.

3. Or this... Maybe Sidious was part of jedi counsel for a while then faked his own death then renamed himself Sidious after making a deal with the kaminoans.. oh wait, they would recognise that him and Senator palpatine from naboo were the same dude. (same actor... to all those thinking they are different people).

hey, but then again, they never figured out that clark kent and super man were the same person. So it has to be #2 or else Lucas got himself into some deep doo doo dis time.

Ewok Hunter
05-20-2002, 09:55 PM
Sidious is Palpatine
Sifa Dyas cannot be sidious because Palpatine was a respect member of the senate for years.

Nebelwerfer_
05-20-2002, 10:25 PM
Sidious is Palpatine
Sifa Dyas cannot be sidious because Palpatine was a respect member of the senate for years.


Are you talking to yourself? That's what we've been saying all along, thanks for your input... NOT!

Naphtali
05-21-2002, 12:08 AM
I never thought of it that way, that Doukoo could be trying to get rid of Sidious by warning Obiwan and the jedi. Even telling him his name.

EP 3 as lucas said the theme will revolve around
THE DESTRUCTION OF THE JEDI

pud1
05-21-2002, 06:04 AM
Ok here's my 2 cents:

Palpatine is Darth Sidious.
Count Dooku is Darth Tyrannus.
Apparently Sith have nicknames along with their past true names.

Count Dooku and Sidious apparently dont communicate much or dooku is trying to betray Sidious because Dooku tells obi-wan of sidious being in-charge of the republic and senate(Palpatine) and Dooku also didnot know of the plans for the clone troopers (he said it "It doesn't seem possible, How could the jedi come up with a army so quickly") OR.... he was playing both sides in saying he didnt know how and the rest of his people: Bank Clan, Neimodians, Techno Union...don't know that he is (Darth Tyrannus in the sith) excpept for Jango Fett.

So really Tyrannus Made Separist Union so he could have a huge Army to go to war against the Jedi.
So really Palpatine/Sidious/Sifa Dyas-believed dead jedi master ordered clone troopers ten years ago before TPM. And now got the emergency powers to use the clones that obi-wan found. To fight the war against Dooku/Tyrannus's army.
So in due time Palpatine will reveal he is Sidious and call himself Emperor and his clone troopers will turn to the Empire and hunt down the Jedi. With the help of fallen jedi Anakin/Vader.

Or im all wrong :D Or Lucas backed himself into a corner :eek:

But I think im pretty close. ;)

Sidious and Sifa-Dyas sound too close to not be same person. I guess he is Palpatine and he has enough dark power to cloud all-jedi's mind for the jedi NOT to see him as a sith and even more NOT to see him as old Jedi Master Sifa-Dyas believed Dead...

Harvester
05-21-2002, 06:16 AM
Sifo-Dyas is a separate person entirely from Palpatine/Sidious.

We're told that he was killed ten years earlier so we can safely assume that the Jedi Council and Obi-Wan knew Sifo-Dyas to some degree or other.

Since Kamino is such a remote system, with little or no contact with outsiders, it would be simple enough for Palpatine, Dooku or someone on their side to masquerade as the dead Jedi and place an order for an army of clones. Perhaps Sifo-Dyas himself was in league with the dark side and ordered the clone army, only to be killed later by Palpatine? With the resources available to Palpatine as a Sith Lord, financing such an endeavour would also be trivial.

After all, Sifo-Dyas isn't around to answer questions, is he?

pud1
05-21-2002, 06:32 AM
cough cough http://www.jedinet.com/prequels/episode-ii/factions.asp cough

Naphtali
05-21-2002, 06:35 AM
If Doukoo does have his own agenda then it was to form the sepratist movement to drive out the sith, however the jedi likely wouldn't approve of him battling against the senate so it would be wise to leave.
It sounds like that could be possible, in that once he gained allies,like the trade federation he found out about the sith lord sidious then he could of purposely pushed himself to the darkside to find out his schemes.

also you guys hsould read on the prelude to AOTC official book, t give more info to AOTC plot

RichDiesal
05-21-2002, 06:44 AM
Ah... but perhaps it is instead Palpatine telling Dooku to create a seperatist movement in order to GET him emergency powers in the first place and allow him to take control!

If you look at all of it as a grand deception by Palpatine, it makes much more sense. He's just sitting back, letting his plans come to fruition, year after year.

That would also explain why Dooku had the Seperatists make the plans for the Death Star and then took them himself and gave them to Palpatine.

pud1
05-21-2002, 07:14 AM
2 things I dont know for sure is
Were the Clone Troopers really made for the republic to use for the war, or where they made to be Palpatine's soldiers and tell the kamino people that the clones are for the republic, but really for Palpatine's empire. I'm just thinking Dooku erased the history and map of Kamino so that the Jedi or anyone wouldnt find it so that the kaminoans wouldnt tell a jedi that it's made for the republic, but in reality Palpatine/Sidious said that, B/C he cant say its for the empire to kill everyone. hehe

Also is Sifa Dyas Sidious/Palpatine? when he was good and a jedi master in the Council and faked his death to turn to the sith, or was he a jedi master that died at the hands of Palpatine/Sidious so maybe he really had connections with Kamino people and Palpatine used his identity to get clones for him to use 10 years later when he'll need them.

thelegalbeagle
05-21-2002, 08:50 AM
The Clonetroopers were ordered by Dooku/Tyranus posing as Sifa-Dyas after Sifa-Dyas' death. Tyranus would know that alerting the Kaminoans that it was the Jedi that were ordering them would ensure secrecy. Kamino is, after all, on the Outer Rim. He would also, no doubt, have said that no contact with Coruscant should be made, the troops remaining on Kamino until a Jedi came for them. They were not ordered for the Republic, but would be used by the Republic as Palpatine planned to agitate a separatist movement headed by his apprentice that would necessitate his being given emergency powers by the Senate. Lo and behold, at exactly that time, a clone army becomes available ordered by - wait - a Jedi master. Noone would suspect anything other than that Sifo-Dyas, around the time of his death, obviously had a glimpse of the future using the Force and ordered the clones, dying before he managed to tell the Jedi Council.

And as an aside, on the same topic of long term planning, Palpatine is already planning the Death Star for the point on the future when he dissolves the Senate:

"How will the Emperor maintain control without the bureaucracy?"
"Fear will keep the local systems in line. Fear of this battlestation."

Blenny
05-21-2002, 11:57 AM
Firstly, on the matter Sidious/Palpatine. He may never be refered to by name in the movies themselves, but it's a very well documented fact: Vader's master, the head of the Empire and all it encompassed was Emperor Palpatine. And you'll notice, Emperor Palpatine is wearing the exact same robe (right down to the same neckclasp) as Sidious in episode 1 (and I assume 2, but I haven't checked that yet). He's played by the same actor (in RotJ, not ESB however, I think). And when you see Palpatine in Ep II you'll notice he isn't looking too well. His skin is pale, and you can see a lot of vains (I think). No, it's not a bad makeup job after a big night out, the physical decay that reflects his inner corruption -The Dark Side- (evident in RotJ) has already set in. Palpatine is Sidious. End of story.

As for Sifo-Dyas he must have been a real Jedi Master. It makes no sense that he was an alter-ego of Sidious/Palpatine, Dooku or Maul (*see end of post for more details). Obi Wan certainly knows of him. He asks the Prime Minister of Kamino a second time who commissioned the Clone army to make sure he heard right, and when he's sure he immediately tells him:

"Master Sifo Dyas was killed (about/almost/just over*) ten years ago."

*Only exact word I can't remember. Also, to my recollection there was a lot of "about ten years ago..." when refering to both the events of Ep I and Dyas' death, so whether he died before or after the Trade Blockade of Naboo is still up in the air to my mind.

So either he was one of the Jedi in the Council Chamber in Ep I, away on other business (ordering armies perhaps?) or already dead.
It's very very likely Sidious somehow arranged his death, and what Mace Windu and Yoda know of this is unclear. It's entirely possibly it was Palpatine or one of his minions posing as Dyas to order the army. Kamino must be a very quiet little out of the way place for ALL record of it to be so easily erased. They may not get much news out that way and so have no idea what Dyas looked like. And that's assuming that they can even tell one (human? Or at least whatever species Dyas was) from another. All the Kaminoans looked pretty similar to me.
But there's another possiblity I haven't seen addressed (not to say that it hasn't been of course). Sifo-Dyas may well have ordered it, in good faith, himself. It's not at all unheard of for the Jedi to serve the Senate directly. Palpatine somehow tricks Dyas into believing that's the will of the Senate, or else manipulated the Chancelor, Valourum, to request the Jedi to travel to Kamino. Or else he acted independently of the Senate, believing the army called for (again probably Palpatine's hand in that). He was then (probably) killed off by Palpatine and his minions, or possibly died on other Jedi business (it's a dangerous line of work after all).

Now as for my reasons Sifo-Dyas cannot (sensibly) be any of the known Sith Lords:

Maul - The most unlikely. A man of few words, not really the discussion circle type. Obi Wan knew of Dyas, so one assumes Qui Gin did too. And if was a leading Council member you think they would have SEEN him. To them, Maul was definately a new surprise.

Dooku - It's pretty clear that he WAS a Jedi Master, but that he's well known by Mace and others (as Dooku), and I doubt he was living a double-life as TWO Jedi Masters. And if he was I doubt they (the Jedi) would have fallen for it.

Palpatine/Sidious - Certainly seems to be pretty good at pulling the wool over Jedi eyes, but for him to be Dyas (which is far too convaluted to begin with) there are certain timing problems. At earliest Dyas died very shortly before the events of Naboo. So he'd have to (aside from the problems of living as a Jedi Master and not allowing others to feel his true thoughts/emotions when you'd think Jedi Masters would be fairly open with one another, and raising a young Sith as a single parent) fake his own death, immediately becoming an ambassador for Naboo and getting assigned to the Senate (a rather lofty position). Then in well under a year he'd have to have manipulated the entire Senate and have them eating out of his hands, and become the new Supreme Chancelor. Say what you like about Palpatine, but you can't say he's ever in a rush. He's a subtle, patient man. He must have been a full time Senator for years.

No, Sifo-Dyas must have been his own man, so to speak. But then, do we even know he was human? Or male? How he came to commission the Clones (assuming it was him and not an imposter), and what fate befell him, no one ('cept Lucas) can say...


After a little more thought it probably WAS Dooku impersonating Sifo-Dyas. After all, they must have had Jango right from the start of the process, and he did say he was recruited by Tyraanus on the moon of somewhere or other. Now before every one jumps up and down about Maul being alive back then and the whole "only two Sith" deal there are many explanations. For one thing, Palpatine is clearly already grooming Anakin while Dooku was still about, and he tries to replace Vader with Luke. My guess is that he likes to do away with his apprentices before they get any ideas about taking his place. He may already have been grooming Dooku. Pushing him away from the Jedi fold. Even before pushing him from the light (if he even needed a push) he may have shown him the need for an army in the Republic's future. Maul's days may have been numbered even without Obi-Wan's help, Dooku certianly would've been more useful than Maul in this next phase of his plans. It would be simple to use the name of a (conveniently) recently dead Jedi Master to make the request for a clone army. Keeping the real instigator's name quiet for political reasons. There are any number of explanations on the how and why of Dooku's involvment in creating the Clone army.


(PS Sorry about any typos etc, far too long to re-read...... : )

husuris
05-21-2002, 02:33 PM
Most probably this question will be answered in Ep.III
Also remeber that there is another question unanswered from Ep.I
Why Qui-Gon did not dissapear after his death???

RichDiesal
05-21-2002, 04:26 PM
I read somewhere recently that is because of the way that he tied himself to the Force... that there is both a Unifying Force and a Living Force, where the Unifying Force focuses on the total unifying force of nature while the Living Force focuses more on the individual...

Then again, some people argue that Yoda and Obi-Wan were actually the first Jedi to disappear on death... Since I don't think Anakin faded away even though he turned to the light side before he died...

Eh, no one knows, really. :D

Funkyhead
05-21-2002, 05:25 PM
Rich ...
i didnt understand a word

...
could you repeat your posting to tell a fool like me what you were talking about
cause i didnt get that whoel unifying and living force

thanx
funkyhead

Naphtali
05-22-2002, 12:32 AM
I think my explanation covers more, just to sum it up remember the Viceroy revealed the sith to Doukoo and let him know about his influence in the senate, he tried to take it to the jedi who didn't beleive him(remember) so he left forming the seperatist movement and he most likely purposely fell to the darkside to infiltrate the sith.(remember he pushes the issue a lot like Qui gon). Now he is likely trying to entrap sidious by slickly warning the jedi, thus to help himself beomce the new leader of the sith, leader of a new dictatorship, or to be the rouge hero that goes down as a legend by coming up with the plans to drive the sith out of the republic.

Just a more likely scenario, that will be found out in ep3

BlackDove
05-22-2002, 12:39 AM
Anyone who nags about this again needs to be shot...this is just for the record ;)

From theforce.net:
Palpatine - Supreme Chancellor, Darth Sidious
Actor: Ian McDiarmid
Still sticking to his evil ways, Palpatine manipulates the Senate to do his bidding and start the Clone Wars.

Nebelwerfer_
05-22-2002, 06:27 AM
that is the most likely scenario, but we cannot forget the possibility that palpy might be a clone of sidious.

Caliban
05-22-2002, 08:11 AM
The way I read it was that Sifo Dyas was a member of the Jedi Council killed in action (possibly by Sidious,Maul,Tyrannus) shortly before the final battle of Naboo. Sidious then uses his name to order the clones for the republic (as a member of the Jedi Council he would have been trusted by the Kaminoans to be acting under the orders of the Republic and also Dyas wouldn't be around to argue), nothing more.

ValorXII
05-22-2002, 10:40 AM
I dont think Dooku was Dias. Maybe he forced him to order the clones? Dooku was a respected Jedi back then was he not? Why act as Dias when he could order the clones under his own name>?

Cobalt60
05-22-2002, 02:36 PM
perhaps "Chancellor" Palpatine is a shapeshifter/changeling who is working for Sidious.

(why do you think they made a such big deal of introducing 'changelings' into the StarWars universe, with that female bounty hunter in the beginning of the film? the fact that she was a changeling served no dramatic purpose to the plot of Ep2. but this will serve a dramatic purpose in Ep3 , as we realise that NOBODY is who they seem to be)

Nebelwerfer_
05-22-2002, 10:48 PM
perhaps "Chancellor" Palpatine is a shapeshifter/changeling who is working for Sidious

If your going to consider that scenario then why not just think that palpatine was a clone of sidious who is gaining power and just when he has enough power sidious will "dismiss" the clone palpatine and take over the position of chansellor of the senate and become emperor. That would give alot more meaning to the name "attack of the clones"

She'ba Katana
05-22-2002, 11:52 PM
Only someone who knew nearly 10 years before AotC that a war is raising can come into question to have ordered the clones.

Death of Darth Maul, Palpatines election for chansellor and the ordering of the clones date back to nearly the same time.

I think we can take for granted that Palpatine (alias Sidious /Please no discussion about this fact, read Palpatines Eye) ordered the clones (in which way- / by whom ever) to fight the Sepratist, introduced by himself, to gain Emergency powers.

Hmm, this whole Sifa-Dyas topic is more complicated. I think I will draw a timeline or a mindmap or anything like this, to figure out what/who is possible.

By the way :
In the films there has not been given any hint for a Palpatine clone.

RichDiesal
05-23-2002, 06:07 AM
Good Lord, you people are making this way too damn complicated. :D

It's relatively simple... and there are only two options that could ever POSSIBLY work.

Option 1) Sifo-Dyas was a member of the Jedi Council who died (in battle or whatnot) over 10 years before Episode II (a year or two before Episode I). Remember that Yoda and Windu both knew the name Sifo-Dyas when Obi Wan mentioned it. Master Dooku probably around this time gave up his robes as a Jedi (the specific reason for which is never revealed) to become Darth Tyrannus, as he could not be the Sith Apprentice until Maul was dead.

Sidious/Palpatine orders Tyrannus to go to the Kamino cloning facility in the Outer Rim, a facility with little to no contact with the Core Worlds, and ordered him to place an order for many many clones so that when the Seperatist movement began, he (Palpatine) could make himself look like the savior of the Republic.

Option 2) Palpatine has been playing both sides of the fence for MANY years. Perhaps he WAS Master Sifo-Dyas, a member of the Jedi Council. At some point, he turns corrupt and disappears. In order to keep things quiet about a corrupt Council member, the Council agrees to fake the records to indicate Sifo-Dyas was killed (remember that Windu and Yoda never confirm OR deny that Sifo-Dyas was killed - they just look at each other)... But that would mean that Palpatine would have to be one DAMN good disguise artist for the Jedi not to recognize him as the Chancellor.

I personally think it's the first option and that this doesn't need to be at all complex. :D

Naphtali
05-23-2002, 07:05 AM
You have to reason from his char.

I beleive that Doukoo is serving to gain power, im sure most of you have done research and before he left he was already upset with the corruption of the senate, and felt the jedi order shouldn't serve the republic no longer.
When he found out from nute Gunray (trade federation) about the sith lord, and how he has influence in the senate he told the jedi, who felt that the trade federation was lyining to save their bussiness, the count believed them. {note at this time it could be possible that Doukoo willingly availed himself to Sidious}

Doukoo was very charismatic and well respected so when he left the other jedi left, REMEMBER THE LOST 20, the jedi who defected from the order to seek other interest.That was around the time of episode 1 when he defected.

Since then he's tooken his Jedi respect and charismatic ability, he inspired the clans,guilds, to form their government structure who grew tired of the republic.

It could be that hes willingly fallen to the darkside to infiltrate the sith, knowing that sidious would be desperate for a new apprentice. Sidious could is more likely using Tyrannus the same way hes using Sidious. {note its likely that sidious could sense that Doukoo would eventually betray him, so he knew that about Vadar too, but who else is their to take his place....yet.

Its obvious from Tyrannus persona that him and Sidious wont coexist. Thats why i feel that Doukoo is doing this waiting for his moment to overthrow sidious{which if that is the case then the more Doukoo stays on the darkside the harder it will be to come back} now that he knows him and his plans.
This moment could of been when he told Obiwan sincere or not he told him a wealth of information, now the jedi can connect that the sith lord maul was with the trade federation, and that nute gunray told them that a sith lord was in charge named sidious.!!

However the jedi arent you nieve, however if they were to accuse palpatiene, this would make the jedi look awfully bad to all the republic as palpatine is looked to as a savior;whats more some may accuse the jedi of treason if they did this and could bring more peril to the jedi, so that could be a reason for them being quiet about it.

However in the end Doukoo will die, but what was his goal.
1 To become a sith lord and later overthrow sidious to beomce new master of the sith.
2 To what the jedi would not have done, beleive nute Gunray and try to infiltrate sith by pushing yourself to the darkside; to expose them and then drive them out of the republic. thus becoming the legendary hero who exposed and eradicated the sith from within, according to the Legend of DOukoo.
3 Or to later kill sidious, and then influnece other defects from the order to destroy the backbone of the republic which is the jedi.

Or a combination of all things, since he doesn't succed in any of them ep 3 will see his clear motive.

DarthNoodles
05-23-2002, 10:14 AM
I believe Dooku left after the events of EP1. Part of the reason he left, I heard, was because of Qui Gon's death. It could have been the in action of the council after Qui Gon's death, I can't remember now.

In the movie it's not clear whether Sifa-Dyas dies ALMOST or OVER ten years ago. I believe it was OVER ten years ago, because otherwise we should have seen him in the council in EP1.

JK_Morovski
05-23-2002, 10:45 AM
oh dear everyone seems to be making rather a big deal of this.

my take on it was that sifa dyous (sp.) died, giving sidious/palpatine the opportunity the chance to order the army under his name.....10 yrs ago, around the time they met anakin

now 10 yrs later, as anakin is about to go dark the army comes o fruition as does his army

as he says everything is as he planned. of course sidious and palpatine are the same. and sidious was never on teh jedi council, he just stole that guys name. unless of course sifa dyous was dookus name b4 he left the council

Dark4ces
05-23-2002, 02:20 PM
As far as the belief there can only be two Sith at a time, I dont buy it as a blanket statement. At the end of EP1, at QuiGon's funeral Yoda says exactly these words:

"Always two there are. No more, No less."

Mace's reply is:

"But which did he kill? The Master, or the apprentice?"

Yoda does not say there are only "two total" as a blanket statement. It is obvious the context of the topic related to a Master/apprentice relationship. I think it is a possibility with the Sith, Like the Jedi, Each Master only has one apprentice.

Tyranus, Jengo and Maul all three had to have been trained along the line somewhere, so for me, that along with the exact wording used by Yoda, shoots the theory of "only two total" down in flames.

We will see in EP3.

D4

DarthNoodles
05-23-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Dark4ces
As far as the belief there can only be two Sith at a time, I dont buy it as a blanket statement. At the end of EP1, at QuiGon's funeral Yoda says exactly these words:

"Always two there are. No more, No less."

Mace's reply is:

"But which did he kill? The Master, or the apprentice?"

Yoda does not say there are only "two total" as a blanket statement. It is obvious the context of the topic related to a Master/apprentice relationship. I think it is a possibility with the Sith, Like the Jedi, Each Master only has one apprentice.

Tyranus, Jengo and Maul all three had to have been trained along the line somewhere, so for me, that along with the exact wording used by Yoda, shoots the theory of "only two total" down in flames.

We will see in EP3.

D4

Actually you're quite wrong...

There are only ever two at any point in time. It's been that was for several thousand years since the near destruction of the Sith.

EP1 there was Sidious(Master) and Maul(App.)
At that point Tyrannus\Dooku was still a Jedi. Dooku became the apprentice after Maul died and Dooku left the Order.
Jango(not Jengo) was never a sith he is CONTRACTED (not an apprentice) by Dooku.


Think about it. In EP5 & 6 Vader is trying to get Luke to join him on the Dark Side and kill the Emperor, not work along with him. Then Palpatine tries to get Luke to kill Vader and join him as his apprentice.

Dark4ces
05-23-2002, 03:56 PM
Good points, but I still think, personelly, that Lucas has a big surprise planned. Play on words are a good writers best friend.
I am most likely wrong, but I just cant see their only being two Sith's in the entire scheme of things. If there are only two then the Sith is so much stronger than the Jedi the rest of the story is too unbelievable for me.

Also, the changling introduced in EP2 was for a Major reason to be revieled in EP3, me thinks.

D4

RichDiesal
05-23-2002, 05:17 PM
Just to clarify, Obi-Wan does say that Sifo-Dyas was killed almost ten years ago... just finally loaded up the damn thing and listened for it.

In any case, that just means that Sifo-Dyas disappeared nearly 10 years earlier... perhaps Dooku was one of the lost 20 who left the Order because he hated the Senate, and Sidious was a means to an end?

Frumpus
05-23-2002, 05:55 PM
Originally posted by SpaceMonkey

Palpatine = Darth Sideous, Sypherdeous
Count Dooku = Darth Tyrannus

The reason that the Jedi don't know that Palpatine is evil/whats going on, is that the dark side is clouding the jedi's vision.

Originally posted by etherealsilk
Wasn't it mentioned that he [Syfo Dyas] was on the Jedi Council somewhere? So he couldn't very well be just some made up name then.

Maybe he was a Jedi Master that got seduced by the dark side and is now palpatine, but then the other council member would recognize him.


I disagree that Palpatine is also Sifo-Dyas.


Originally posted by Natty
... if Sifadous (the good jedi?) is Palpatine and Sifedous was thought to be killed 10years ago, wouldn't people have noticed when Palpatine rocks up a few years later and looks exactly the same as Sifadous? I mean I don't think they have plastic surgeons in the galaxy far, far away... do they????

Originally posted by Vanor
...if Sifo-Dyas was a full fledged Jedi, then why don't any of the current Jedi refer to Palpatine as Sifo-Dyas? They would have to know it's the same person. And Sifo-Dyas died aroudn 10 years ago according to Ep2, or about the time of Ep1. Palpatine was a senator prior to this, and I don't think a Jedi could be a senator and member of the Jedi Console.

Right! Ten years ago was when Ep1 took place, am I right? Palpatine was already a senator, and was already Darth Sidious, yet Sifo-Dyas was supposed to be alive and on the Jedi coucil at that time, right? Even if they DID have VERY good plastic surgeons, the times don't work out.


Originally posted by Perniciosus
The only OTHER possible explination is that Dooku went to Kamino on order from Sidious and presented himself as Master SifoDyas. That could possibly stay consistant with the time frame, but, again, gets lost because Obi-Wan, Mace and Yoda appear to confirm that SifoDyas was, in fact, a former Jedi...


Sounds very possible!

I agree with RichDeisal's "Option 1". I think Count Dooku/Darth Tyrranus was once called Sifo-Dyas.

Evidence:
He was once a Jedi - even trained Qui-gonn - but ten years ago he "died" (probably under suspicious circumstances). This is right around the time...
-Maul died, and would need to be replaced as apprentice to the Sith Lord, Darth Sidious,
-as the defeat on the Federation's droid army,
-AND at the same time the order was placed for the clone army by Sifo-Dyas.

I just wish Obi-wan had made it clear whether or not he recognized dooku as Sifo-Dyas. >:( That is the biggest flaw in this theory.


Originally posted by Hal_Horn
It is Sifo-Dyas, straight from the script.

I believe there was a real Jedi master named Sifo-Dyas, but after he died Sidious used his name to place an order for the clone army. Maybe Sidious even killed him in order to use his name.

Originally posted by Blenny
After a little more thought it probably WAS Dooku impersonating Sifo-Dyas. After all, they must have had Jango right from the start of the process, and he did say he was recruited by Tyraanus on the moon of somewhere or other. ... It would be simple to use the name of a (conveniently) recently dead Jedi Master to make the request for a clone army...

Yeah, that's another good possibility.


Originally posted by Baal Fett
the whole Jango/Dooku thing confuses me too...Jango Helps build the clone army...then leaves and helps build the droid army? but then the armies fight each other? why? Dooku is explaining to his allies about overthrowing the republic..but he help build the clone army to defend the republic? ....

Dooku was "playing" the Seperatists (including the Trade Federation) just to trick them into building another droid army, to supplement the Clone army. It's pretty obvious that the Clone army - originally ordered for use by the Jedi - later become usurped by Palpatine, and MUCH later take the form of Storm Troopers. Neither Dooku nor Sidious really cared much that some of each of their future armies would get killed fighting each other in the AOTC battle.


Originally posted by Perniciosus
... Dooku's limited lines in AotC where he states that the Senate is under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith. Dooku goes so far as to talk about Darth Sidious being aligned with the Trade Federation's Viceroy during the happenings that made up TPM.

Originally posted by Naphtali
Now [Dooku] is likely trying to entrap sidious by slickly warning the jedi, thus to help himself beomce the new leader of the sith, leader of a new dictatorship, ...

I think Dooku WAS ACTUALLY trying to seduce Obi-wan in this moment, and so Dooku gave him some true "inside" info (hehe, reminded me of Saruman seducing Gandalf - showing him "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em," AND much like the Emperor tries to seduce Luke.) Yes, even though Dooku was "working for" Sidious, the way of the Sith is that there can only be two, always battling for the top spot, (or is this just "Expanded Universe" talk - therefore not "canonized"?) so it's possible Tyrannus/Dooku had his own plans to overthrow Sidious/Palpatine.

Originally posted by dorain8
did anyone else notice papatne was rather pale in this movie

Yup! I totally did! As well as his being rather "sharp" and almost snide with everyone, not as goofily polite as in Ep1.


Originally posted by Cobalt60
perhaps "Chancellor" Palpatine is a shapeshifter/changeling who is working for Sidious.

(why do you think they made a such big deal of introducing 'changelings' into the StarWars universe, with that female bounty hunter in the beginning of the film? the fact that she was a changeling served no dramatic purpose to the plot of Ep2. but this will serve a dramatic purpose in Ep3 , as we realise that NOBODY is who they seem to be)

Good point, Cobalt! The majority of viewers probably aren't like the rest of us who've seen the inside of the expanded universe. They may need "prepping" for the idea of shapeshifters in the StarWars galaxy.

Originally posted by Nebelwerfer_
...why not just think that palpatine was a clone of sidious who is gaining power and just when he has enough power sidious will "dismiss" the clone palpatine and take over the position of chansellor of the senate and become emperor.

Wow! That does make sense! Except that I think Palpatine doesn't NEED to be replaced by Sidious; his nasty character is already coming out, and it's clear even from Ep1 that he had his eye on Anakin - who later become Emperor Palpatine's underling.

TieDefender75
05-23-2002, 06:03 PM
my turn!

i believe that the clone war is to give palpatine power and he will act as the mediator and united republic and separitis. Thus creating the empire.. Somewhere along the way, a groups of people suspicious with palpatine, break off and become the rebellion.

Now, the most difficult thing, Palpatine has the apprentice maul.
Maul dies.
Yoda trained Dooku.
Therefore, Palpatine is not dooku master, yoda is,but Dooku is seduced by the dark side and becomes a sith. NOT AN APPRENTICE.

Dooku is the leader of the separitists and palpatine is the leader of the republic. They work together to benefit palpatine.

Syfo Dias(ummm...spelling) was a jedi master on the council.
dies nearly 10 years ago.(ep.1)
most likely dias is killed by dooku and uses his name to built the army.

Now as for dooku telling obi wan that there is a sith lord controlling the republic, it is to throw them off course and begin to turn on themselves. Also, it is to make palpatine innocent so no one suspects him of being the sith lord.

IMO, i think i figured it out!

Taximes
05-23-2002, 10:54 PM
What happens in Episode II is all part of Palpatine/Sidious' plan, I believe.

I like the theory that after Episode I, Dooku (Tyrannus) became Sidious' apprentice, killed Sipha Dias and used Jango to create the clone army. The reason Jango works for the clones and for the droid army could either be that 1. He's a bounty hunter :p or 2. It's all part of Sidious' ultimate plan to rule the galaxy. Everything is a front the Palpatine is using to fool the Jedi, the Senate and the citizens. He sent Dooku to make this seperatist movement as a way to gain more power for himself, to use this army and crush the "threat", and it's working perfectly in Episode II. He has his enemies helping Dooku and the fake seperatist movement, and his enemies the Jedi helping the clone army. When he feels the time is right, he'll turn on everyone and crush them beneath his boot, becoming the emperor :p

Taximes
05-23-2002, 11:27 PM
Just to prove the point that Sidious is using the Seperatists as a front, this is taken from the script:


DARTH SIDIOUS
Welcome home, Lord Tyranus. You have done well.

COUNT DOOKU
I bring you good news, my Lord. The war has begun.

DARTH SIDIOUS
Excellent. (smiling) Everything is going as planned.