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ArtifeX
05-18-2002, 01:10 PM
I've written a much-needed summation, based on all of my testing and research, of everything that I believe needs to be modified in a new 1.04 patch in order for JK2 to maintain long-term appeal and to repair the current community rift created by the 1.03 patch. Here's the link:

http://www.oculis.org/asc/features_104.html

I've got many fixes that would be very simple (seemingly) to implement, and others that are far more involved. Everybody give it a read and let me know what you think. Give me some good suggestions, and I may just add them to the list with a credit in your name.

Also, if anyone has an appropriate email address for someone at Raven assigned to JK2, then email it to me at:

arsartifex@msn.com

and I'll make sure to post it on that page so that Raven can hear about your reactions to my post directly.

Agen
05-18-2002, 01:26 PM
If they make the saber damage 10-25 hp more than it is now, it hink that would be better.

Drain-- Put it back the way it was in 1.02, with one caveat: shorten the range to 1/2 of what it is now. .

2/3 of what it is nowo wuld be better i tihnk.

Make Light Style a one-handed style and allow the free hand to be used for specialized melee attacks like grappling and punches.

Er... well what about they cna take there hand off ands do that but it slows em down and they have the chance fo getting it cut off?

Otherwise everything fine, but grip shoudl eb put back tot he way it was in 1.02, ebcause now i can't geto tu of it, because of my 56k they swing you abotu in the air and you warp ab bit and cant' see where they are.

And you forgot the backstab move, thye should make it less damaging, (about 75 hp) and only hits at stomach range which woudl stop the janitor being pulled off anit takes lnoger to recover.. that shoudls top most ass fighters.

Kanubis
05-18-2002, 01:34 PM
Well, I think the damage for the backslash in medium stance should have gradient damage, so it only really hurts people right behind you (middle of the swing). The hurther to the edge of the swing you get, the less damage you take (dramatically). Bakswings should also be given a 'recovery time' - this would stop all the backward running stuff, and still let the move be used in the beautiful way it should be.

Oh, and my other enhancement.. something that traces your computer's posts on forums.. the first time an opinion on the patch is posted, fine - after that, consistent whining and bitching will steadily lower your hit damage.... I'm going to be crucified for this, aren't I....:mob:

Agen
05-18-2002, 01:43 PM
Sometimes it's useful to get spammers off there winning sprees in duels wait for them to trryand DFA you and thne backstab them. Gets him off for a while until it's his turn again and goes aroudn abckwards in heavystance

C'jais
05-18-2002, 01:54 PM
Excellent changes Artifex, all of them VERY good!

But something should be done about the stupid backstab damage as it now.

And raven, please make it so you cannot block attacks coming from your rear.... that's just plain silly...

Blank1234
05-18-2002, 01:58 PM
"Jump-- Allow Kicking and Wall moves at level 1."

Or instead of saberthrow in NF Servers, give force jump level 2. Kicking should probably cost you points in force-enabled servers (though, I don't think I've ever played with just force jump level 1 in force servers)

"Saber Throw-- Remove Saber Throwing from FFA duels."

Outside of duels, I don't see any use for saberthrow. It's far too costly in points which are 9 times out of 10, better off spent elsewhere. 30 damage for an attack that leaves you vulnerable that can be deflected and travels slower than a bryers shot.... wow. In duels it's powerful just because you can't heal and range is key. Outside of duels, healing is possible and their are a number of cheaper/more damaging methods of attack.

*shrug*, I'd rather see a more costly saber throw personally. Like half your force but it does some serious damage if it hits. It can still be blocked, which makes it less spammy but requires more of an opening/good timing. Would also make force usage a bit more tighter, should I use heal or save up for that saber throw which could end it right here.... etc.

"Add more acrobatic moves to Medium style.
Make Light Style a one-handed style and allow the free hand to be used for specialized melee attacks like grappling and punches."

I seriously doubt they'll release a patch and add more moves.

My idea on special moves is to have them all cost force to do. BUT, remove the lag time after all the special moves (sans DFA).

This does 2 big things: 1, spamming is dropped seriously now that they cost force to do (like 1-2 times the force required of a flipkick I'm thinking). Also puts more pressure on force management. Should I heal, saberthrow, or try for a pull/backstab when he might have absorb?

2. It removes the "cheap" kills people complain about. The reason backstabs, medium finisher, and DFA do so much damage is because the lag time afterwords still registers as a hit for full damage. By removing the lag, saber combat becomes more flowing (why I pause for 3 seconds after the medium finisher, I'm not sure) and people will be less likely to impale themselves on a seemingly idle saber.

Why idle sabers deal 1 damage but an idle saber being held backwords (faststance backstab) is 100 damage, I'm not sure.

On that note, idle sabers should either deal no damage or go back to 5 damage. The 1 damage has absolutely no use other than to mislead you so you don't know if you scored a hit or just gave your opponent a burn. The groan sounds should be removed unless you take 10+ damage.

On a semi-random side note, they never did get rid of the DFA bug. If you walk over the buried saber, you're still take damage. Only now it's harder to walk over since you can't turn.

Another beef I have, constant rolling should be gone. Why you can roll faster than you can run still makes no sense to me. It wouldn't bother me but keepaway to build up force duels (or just stall to annoy your opponent) is, well, annoying. Backpeddle speed needs to be lower too. Oh well.


I doubt they'll release another patch, but if they do, they probably won't do half the suggestions you made about saber combat. Anything that requires new art or animations probably won't happen.

Blank

Sutek
05-18-2002, 02:16 PM
Drain-- Put it back the way it was in 1.02, with one caveat: shorten the range to 1/2 of what it is now. That will put a Drainer in position for retaliation, and will force him to be aggressive rather than passive. This will also allow an absorber to conserve more of his Force Power by making it easier to stay out of range. Dark vs. Dark battles will become much more interesting due to the close-quarters nature of this kind of Drain battle.

My alternative suggestion for this was posted some time back, but I never saw any commnets on it: Remove the healing aspect of Drain entirely, apart from at level 3, at level 3 you get a beam (as per level 2). The Dark side is supposed to be much more about killing your opponent than healing yourself, and I feel that the array of offensive powers PLUS healing powers (some of the LS powers are worthless...Protect I'm thinking of you...) offset a lack of healing (and forces DS'ers to be more intelligent rather than lightning,drain, lightning,drain,lightning,drain,et.c while running away a lot)

Heal-- Use the Healing amount from 1.02, but the Force Power cost from 1.03. This will make someone very careful about Healing, but also make it worthwhile when they do.
Absorb-- Put it back the way it was in 1.02, but keep the invisibile aura.


Yes, I think the combination of healing reduction AND increase in force cost was excessive, and has relegated the power to the
realm of the near useless. I never particularly used Abosrb before the patch, but I recall the high force cost/second made it far less useful than it needed to be. Also, as the ONLY worthwhile counter to the dark side powers, it needs to have a good "bang for your buck" ratio. Otherwise, you simply see a resurgance of the DSer waiting for the Absorb user to run out of force, then letting rip with all they have. This argument will always go one way or the other :>

Jump-- Allow Kicking and Wall moves at level 1.
Saber Throw-- Remove Saber Throwing from FFA duels.

Hmm, I have to admit I'm not fond of the addition of saber throw to no force duels myself, but I would be more inclined to allow a max of Force Jump 2 instead of 1 in a no force game (which answers that problem). On the other hand, kicking is a tactic that could be overused in a duel, resulting in the so-called "ninja jedi" who never even bothers to ignite their saber (hmm...an interesting challeneg methinks)

Mind Trick-- Make the range at which Mind Trick can be overcome by Force Sight dependent upon the difference in the number of Power Levels in each. A level 1 Force Sight should only be able to see someone with Level 3 Mind Trick within a few meters. A level 3 Force Sight should be able to see any level of Mind Trick at maximum range.

A VASTLY simpler solution to code is this: You need an equal or higher level of force seeing to penetrate a given level of mind trick. Simple and elegant - Granted it's not much, but it makes MT 3 a much more worthwhile investment (I rarely go beyond seeing 2 myself, neding my points elsewhere), and makes it a much more tactical decision in Knight level servers.

Make Light Style a one-handed style and allow the free hand to be used for specialized melee attacks like grappling and punches.

I'm not so sure about this one myself, I can see it having some serious problems with usage alone - you would need to concentrate on saber fighting AND activating these secondary attacks. What about altering the animations so that in effect the saber strikes twice in quick succession, while only requiring a single attack stroke (eg a sideswing would give a high strike that is then pulled out and then flashes down into a low leg strike - the upper one may be blocked, but the second one is most likely going to penetrate everything bar a light style users defence - as well as being more of a low-damage-but-hits-often type of attack)

Lower the chances of a successful block by an amount commensurate with the distance of the attacker from the defender's crosshairs. This will actually lend some skill to defending yourself. Having them close to your crosshair should increase the chances of parrying as well.
Do NOT make blocking manual. We have enough keys to worry with already! The above crosshair solution is much more elegant.
Allow Light Style attacks to hit someone using a Force Power


Hear hear, it's taken me a while to get used to the new saber blocking, but I think I've got it licked now. It just needs better reflexes or using a more powerful style (light is weak, but can get several blows in before the opponents saber is readied, you *have* to attack when your opponent swings to get in there - it relies on being faster than they are). Finally, if someone is concentrating on a force power they aren't defending themselves.

A few last things: The blue lunge didn't need to have it's turning removed, and I think that could go back in without too much fuss. I also think the real problem with the DFA was it's bizarre hitbox problems (where you got hit despite being nowhere near). Turning sideways being limited I can understand, but I KEEP landing on peoples HEADS for crying out loud! Couldn't it at least be aimed up or down so you can hurt someone instead of looking silly before they murder you? (In other words, at the end of a DFA strike you can pivot it vertically, allowing you to hit people directly below you)

Sorry about the long comments, but those are my thoughts on what you said. I also disagree with your "radical" saber changes, since they would place strong style at a severe disadvantage (mmm, slow single saber vs either twin sabers or a double bladed one? No chance), but it might make for an interesting mod. (maybe if you went for the blue==twin saber, red==double saber instead?)

Bambers
05-18-2002, 02:54 PM
How about stopping pull knocking people down. That would completely stop the pull/backstab which is a cheap and very boring move as the whole game ends up with who can get a pull knockdown first.

Reduce the damage of backstabs to those of a normal swing (but have the normal swings at Artifexs suggested 30/60/90) and also have a separate, slower backstab for the heavy stance.Using the same animation as medium and just doing more damage makes the medium backstab pointless.

The blocking system with the crosshair is a good idea but would that be expensive on server cpu? Just reducing the radius of blocking would be good enough. There is a command to revert to 1.02 style blocking though.

Another possibility would be to remove the healing power of drain, just make it a tactical power, and keep heal as an expensive power. The darkside couldnt heal in jk1 and heal was very expensive, not sure why it was changed. Being able to heal just drags out duels.

HKPhooE
05-18-2002, 03:14 PM
What's the opinion on Speed and Dark Rage? Outside of ctf I havn't seen Speed used to great effect. Using it for quicker attacks just seems an invitation for the opponent to push/pull sweep you. I'm not sure about the best ways to upgrade, but I think it definitely needs its power cost lowered. As of now it takes what- 1/2 of your total power? Seems crazy high to me. Helping you get up from a knockdown faster could be an added benefit. With the lightside having absorb, this would help out the darkside against being knocked to the ground. Hell, maybe Iím mistaken and Speed actually already does this, but with it costing so much energy it's of no use.

Dark Rage is another underpowered ability. The first step is to remove the red electricity when itís activated, similar to the removal of the blue light absorb received in 1.03. This benefit is again needed for the same reason absorb now has it, itís too easy to just run away and wait out the dark rage power. Seeing as this power is a sort of "berserk" mode, making the user immune to force powers while its activated isn't out of line IMO, this could be balanced by the inability for the "berserker" to use powers himself. (is this already the case?)

Sutek
05-18-2002, 03:18 PM
I don't think that's a solution, it would cause more annoyance than any real effect, since the real problem is those who insist on running around backwards.

an occasional pull/backswing attempt isn't too bad either, it's when people use it as their primary attack ALL THE TIME. A better solution would be to reduce the blocking levels slightly, to allow more of the normal strikes to go through, and bring the saber damages back to their normal levels (the 30/60/90 is a fine setting). If you did that, then I think you'd find that fewer people would resort to constant backswinging when they could at last get a normal strike to connect. (Besides, aborsb neatly counters the pull part, and you can try holding the jump key to take off and away from the stab)

Blamer
05-18-2002, 05:41 PM
Well, your ideas for a 1-handed light stance and the Boc/Darth Maul sabers seem more in line with a JO version of SBX than any sort of gameplay fix. Other than that, I agree with everything else except the no saber throw in duel and acrobatics with level 1 force jump.

Nullzero
05-18-2002, 06:39 PM
Great suggestions... I agree with pretty much everything, except the Kick-Flipping in No-Force duel servers, and the ability to turn with the Blue Stance Crouching-Thrust attack.

I find kicking incredibly annoying because it's so random, and there is really no way to block against it. To me, it seems like it detracts away from some of the skill of the game, because a lucky kick can knock you down and easily cost you the match. On a Force Powers server, flip-kicking is more balanced because you can use Protect (while on the ground) or heal or drain or something to gain back the 20 hitpoints you lost... but not in No Force duels.

As for the Blue Stance move... I think it was too easy to hit with before, and there is really no way to counter the move if the attacker is allowed to turn. It's pretty hard to counter as it is right now because the recovery time of the move is so small. Plus it can be done from the air and thrown into blue-combos... I would say I like it the way it is. :)

All in all though, some great suggestions. I hope Raven can take some of them to heart, and maybe even come up with some other intelligent changes that we havn't thought of yet.

-----
Nullzero

Khaza
05-18-2002, 07:16 PM
I must say that I agree with most of these suggestions that ArtifeX writed. The best way eliminate these special move whores is to decrese damage special moves make and increse damage of normal attacks. There isn't much to add thing that have been said earlier... but something must be done for this rageus back stabbing...

And one other thing, it would be very cool if players could choose between normal and double bladed light sabers, ofcourse i would need lot of work like coding and making new animations but it would open so maaaany possibilities :D

NK_Zephorath
05-19-2002, 01:28 AM
I agree with most of your points, but you are forgetting about guns completely.

In CTF games, it is impossbile for defenders to do their jobs properly with so little ammo. I mean, I can take any pub server regular, but skilled players aren't going to be as predictable, and are generally harder to kill. If we don't have a repeater, flechette, rocket or thermal, we're screwed. The carrier can easily pull his saber out and block everything else. This is retarded.

In scenarios where both teams have the opposing team's flag at their base, the match can drag on forever with nothing happening. You can go back all you want, but 4 ****ing shots to kill a skilled player with 100/100 and bacta is impossible, even 12 is difficult . Not to mention your gun can be pulled.

Gunning is a joke, raven needs to fix this. Some people want to compete. We didn't all come here to play sabers., even though I started out playing sabers only until about a month after release.

NK_Zephorath
05-19-2002, 01:35 AM
I agree with most of your points, but you are forgetting about guns completely.

In CTF games, it is impossbile for defenders to do their jobs properly with so little ammo. I mean, I can take any pub server regular, but skilled players aren't going to be as predictable, and are generally harder to kill. If we don't have a repeater, flechette, rocket or thermal, we're screwed. The carrier can easily pull his saber out and block everything else. This is retarded.

In scenarios where both teams have the opposing team's flag at their base, the match can drag on forever with nothing happening. You can go back all you want, but 4 ****ing shots to kill a skilled player with 100/100 and bacta is impossible, even 12 is difficult . Not to mention your gun can be pulled.

Gunning is a joke, raven needs to fix this. Some people want to compete. We didn't all come here to play sabers., even though I started out playing sabers only until about a month after release.

NK_Zephorath
05-19-2002, 01:42 AM
I agree with most of your points, but you are forgetting about guns completely.

In CTF games, it is impossbile for defenders to do their jobs properly with so little ammo. I mean, I can take any pub server regular, but skilled players aren't going to be as predictable, and are generally harder to kill. If we don't have a repeater, flechette, rocket or thermal, we're screwed. The carrier can easily pull his saber out and block everything else. This is retarded.

In scenarios where both teams have the opposing team's flag at their base, the match can drag on forever with nothing happening. You can go back all you want, but 4 ****ing shots to kill a skilled player with 100/100 and bacta is impossible, even 12 is difficult . Not to mention your gun can be pulled.

Gunning is a joke, raven needs to fix this. Some people want to compete. We didn't all come here to play sabers., even though I started out playing sabers only until about a month after release.

Chaotic~Angel
05-19-2002, 03:24 AM
Backsweepers are annoying, really...really...annoying but I've learnt to deal with them by using grip and swinging them like a rag doll (works most the time). What really ticks me off is lightning now. Someone uses lightning and my armor and health drop insanely fast. Now it should do this amount of dmg....cuz its a super powerful move but just bump up the cost for it. You can kill people with lightning without losing much force...thats tough stuff.

Lord Sokar
05-19-2002, 03:28 AM
ArtifeX,

Just wanted to say thank you for your guide on saber dueling. I have to admit I learned all of my styles and tricks (1.02 of course) by reading your guide. I saw my abilities go through the roof in a short time.

You're also dead on about what's gone wrong with 1.03. Keep up the good fight.

Soruss
05-20-2002, 04:31 AM
Guns. As far as guns go... I like it the way it is. Saber is the main weapon and guns are used in special case scenarios. A master will use all weapons and swtich when the moment is right...

I also think push/pull are too powerful.

My friend and I's duels consist of trying to pull the other person to the ground and then backstab them. If you fall over its almost impossible to avoid that backstab or back sweep.

Its kind of stupid that saber duels are now push/pull fests.

You should be able to push or pull yourself while on the ground, so if someone pulls you, you can push them away from you.

Maybe a nice delay between pulls/pushes as well. so someone cant stand still spamming push/pull and whenever you get close your on the ground and dead in two seconds.

Nathan Wind
05-20-2002, 05:30 AM
I see only a few problems with the fixes I have read.

The nature of the dark force powers in jk are close up melee attacks that take quite a lot of time to seriously damage an opponent; lightning and of course grip.

The instantaneous effect of the light sided counter still make these relatively useless in the new version of jk.

There would need to be a power like force destruction from jk1 that is both powerful and instant to balance out the force powers (and then that would still be the only power that was effective against absorb).

The fact that absorb was used to discourage darksiders more than counter them actually gave darkies a chance to use their time constrained, offensive powers. If their opponent was blue, you didnít go shooting off lightning. The fact it is now invisible makes the short-range dark powers completely useless, as well as push/pull on maps with bottomless pits.

If absorb is invisible, then all dark powers, including drain grip and lightning should be invisible.

2

The second problem with the fixes is the fact that drain would still be a short-range power, as with all the dark powers. That would make dark vs. dark fights still come down to who could drain who the fastest and not who could use saber/force powers/guns most effectively.

3

As far as dark rage and speed go, those powers worked with guns primarily, as they should. Now that guns are impotent, these powers are as well. (Protect was a crappy long range absorb after all, which should have been used to discourage gunners and encourage close up dark powers/saber fights, as all ranged damage was weapons damage.)

Finally

I like the saber changes for the most part, but I say increase the potency of saber throw. This could be used to offset drain and some of the close up dark powers. This should get rid of the drain problem completely without having to get rid of the usefulness of drain itself.

PULL AND PUSH should be used to stop gunners. But by fixing drain, I donít see why gunners should still be castrated. Push and pull countered them very well in .02 and they can be used the same way in .04


If raven does anything, they should test the new version first. I personally volunteer, as I think artifex and the others would happily do as well.

ArtifeX
05-20-2002, 12:29 PM
Originally posted by Sutek


My alternative suggestion for this was posted some time back, but I never saw any commnets on it: Remove the healing aspect of Drain entirely, apart from at level 3, at level 3 you get a beam (as per level 2). The Dark side is supposed to be much more about killing your opponent than healing yourself, and I feel that the array of offensive powers PLUS healing powers (some of the LS powers are worthless...Protect I'm thinking of you...) offset a lack of healing (and forces DS'ers to be more intelligent rather than lightning,drain, lightning,drain,lightning,drain,et.c while running away a lot)


No, your suggestion would unduly cripple the dark side by giving it no way to heal. Also, Protect is no longer worthless. It, along with Dark Rage, can protect you from a one-hit kill after a knockdown.

Any idiot who does nothing but lightning, drain, lightning...ad nauseam will be quickly wiped out by a good player. For instance, Absorb requires only 10 points to turn on. if they use lightning on you, then you can cut absorb on in the middle of the blast and regain whatever force power they use up.


Yes, I think the combination of healing reduction AND increase in force cost was excessive, and has relegated the power to the
realm of the near useless. I never particularly used Abosrb before the patch, but I recall the high force cost/second made it far less useful than it needed to be. Also, as the ONLY worthwhile counter to the dark side powers, it needs to have a good "bang for your buck" ratio. Otherwise, you simply see a resurgance of the DSer waiting for the Absorb user to run out of force, then letting rip with all they have. This argument will always go one way or the other :>


Absorb only needed to be empowered in 1.02 because Drain was overpowered. If they cut the range in half as i suggest, that won't be a problem any longer. My Absorb suggestions stands.


Hmm, I have to admit I'm not fond of the addition of saber throw to no force duels myself, but I would be more inclined to allow a max of Force Jump 2 instead of 1 in a no force game (which answers that problem). On the other hand, kicking is a tactic that could be overused in a duel, resulting in the so-called "ninja jedi" who never even bothers to ignite their saber (hmm...an interesting challeneg methinks)


Saber throw in 1.03 no force is no longer an issue. This is a server administration problem as ChangKhan has explained. There is no Saber Throwing in a true no-force server.

Kicking is pathetically easy to avoid and counter. The addition of it to no-force games just expands on the attack options available--that is never a bad thing.


A VASTLY simpler solution to code is this: You need an equal or higher level of force seeing to penetrate a given level of mind trick. Simple and elegant - Granted it's not much, but it makes MT 3 a much more worthwhile investment (I rarely go beyond seeing 2 myself, neding my points elsewhere), and makes it a much more tactical decision in Knight level servers.


Simpler, yes. Better, no. I'd rather have a more complicated solution that fixes the problem than a simple one that doesn't. Whatever level you pick of Sight currently is of no consequence. I am talking about a proposed version of the game.
Not being able to see someone with lvl 3 Mind Trick at all even when you have level 2 Sight is ludicrous.


I'm not so sure about this one myself, I can see it having some serious problems with usage alone - you would need to concentrate on saber fighting AND activating these secondary attacks. What about altering the animations so that in effect the saber strikes twice in quick succession, while only requiring a single attack stroke (eg a sideswing would give a high strike that is then pulled out and then flashes down into a low leg strike - the upper one may be blocked, but the second one is most likely going to penetrate everything bar a light style users defence - as well as being more of a low-damage-but-hits-often type of attack)


Let me clarify. A secondary attack could be initiated by being in extreme close range and hitting some combination like back+attack. That might swing some kind of punch, or kick, or whatever. I'll let the animators figure that out.

I don't see any problem with usage there. It's very similar to the way kicking is now. Do you have problems saber fighting AND kicking?


Hear hear, it's taken me a while to get used to the new saber blocking, but I think I've got it licked now. It just needs better reflexes or using a more powerful style (light is weak, but can get several blows in before the opponents saber is readied, you *have* to attack when your opponent swings to get in there - it relies on being faster than they are). Finally, if someone is concentrating on a force power they aren't defending themselves.


Reread my comments about problems in 1.03. You can defend against Light style swings even while using a Force power such as Drain or Lightning. I'm simply saying that needs to be fixed.


A few last things: The blue lunge didn't need to have it's turning removed, and I think that could go back in without too much fuss. I also think the real problem with the DFA was it's bizarre hitbox problems (where you got hit despite being nowhere near). Turning sideways being limited I can understand, but I KEEP landing on peoples HEADS for crying out loud! Couldn't it at least be aimed up or down so you can hurt someone instead of looking silly before they murder you? (In other words, at the end of a DFA strike you can pivot it vertically, allowing you to hit people directly below you)

Sorry about the long comments, but those are my thoughts on what you said. I also disagree with your "radical" saber changes, since they would place strong style at a severe disadvantage (mmm, slow single saber vs either twin sabers or a double bladed one? No chance), but it might make for an interesting mod. (maybe if you went for the blue==twin saber, red==double saber instead?)

How can you say that Strong would be at a disadvantage when I have placed no other specific differences in my article other than Damage values?

And your solution to this "strong style disadvantage" is to switch it with what would be Medium style? Wouldn't Medium style be at even more of a disadvantage then with the lower damage?

ArtifeX
05-20-2002, 12:45 PM
Originally posted by Bambers
How about stopping pull knocking people down. That would completely stop the pull/backstab which is a cheap and very boring move as the whole game ends up with who can get a pull knockdown first.


Which is why you empower OTHER TACTICS rather than just nerfing the ones that CURRENTLY WORK. Jesus people, do you want all of the moves to equally suck?? How about making more of them NOT SUCK??


Reduce the damage of backstabs to those of a normal swing (but have the normal swings at Artifexs suggested 30/60/90) and also have a separate, slower backstab for the heavy stance.Using the same animation as medium and just doing more damage makes the medium backstab pointless.


Again, if you make the backstabs do the same amount of damage as a normal swing, then why do the damn backstab in the first place???


The blocking system with the crosshair is a good idea but would that be expensive on server cpu? Just reducing the radius of blocking would be good enough. There is a command to revert to 1.02 style blocking though.


No, it won't be expensive on the server unless high school trigonometry suddenly got more difficult overnight.

Blocking in 1.02 was random. What I'm proposing is an end to both randomized blocking and 100% blocking. Blocking should take skill like anything else.


Another possibility would be to remove the healing power of drain, just make it a tactical power, and keep heal as an expensive power. The darkside couldnt heal in jk1 and heal was very expensive, not sure why it was changed. Being able to heal just drags out duels.

<rant>
I'VE GOT AN IDEA!! LET'S JUST NERF EVERYTHING SO NOBODY GETS INJURED, EVER!! THEN EVERYONE CAN JUST JOIN SERVERS TO CHAT WITH THEIR SABERS OFF ABOUT HOW MUCH BETTER THE GAME IS NOW THAT NOBODY EVER LOSES!!!
</rant>

dipsh1t whiners like you are the ones who got us saddled with the 1.03 patch in the first place. learn to play the ****1ng game!

Azraelt
05-20-2002, 12:53 PM
IMO, all they need to do is put the saber combat back to the way it was in 1.02, except: Fix the medium finisher so you can actually hit because there is a huge delay time after you are done, Fix the DFA damage, but not as much as it is in 1.03. I loved all the different saber moves that 1.02 had for each combonation. The sp saber sucked. It wasn't fun. The mp saber was fun, but now they just ruined it. This is by far the worst patch I have ever seen done to a game.

ArtifeX
05-20-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by HKPhooE
What's the opinion on Speed and Dark Rage? Outside of ctf I havn't seen Speed used to great effect. Using it for quicker attacks just seems an invitation for the opponent to push/pull sweep you. I'm not sure about the best ways to upgrade, but I think it definitely needs its power cost lowered. As of now it takes what- 1/2 of your total power? Seems crazy high to me. Helping you get up from a knockdown faster could be an added benefit. With the lightside having absorb, this would help out the darkside against being knocked to the ground. Hell, maybe Iím mistaken and Speed actually already does this, but with it costing so much energy it's of no use.


Speed is mainly useful in other gametypes than duel. In those contexts, it doesn't need any adjustment.

As far as using it to get up faster..
<secret>
Dark Rage already does that :)
</secret>


Dark Rage is another underpowered ability. The first step is to remove the red electricity when itís activated, similar to the removal of the blue light absorb received in 1.03. This benefit is again needed for the same reason absorb now has it, itís too easy to just run away and wait out the dark rage power. Seeing as this power is a sort of "berserk" mode, making the user immune to force powers while its activated isn't out of line IMO, this could be balanced by the inability for the "berserker" to use powers himself. (is this already the case?)

Making a Rager immune to force powers isn't justified, nor is it required to balance anything out. This is already useful as a defensive power just as Protection is on the light side. The advantage it has is that it only has a one-time cost, so won't continually drain your Pool while in use.

TexRoadkill
05-20-2002, 03:55 PM
Apart from you radical suggestions which I dont really agree with there isnt much you suggest that cant be done with server settings. I only play NF Duels so I wont comment on Force Powers.

If servers would (and could?) lower the health to around 25-50% in the beginning of the match it would bring the damage ratios down. Now a lunge or heavy strike would be just as lethal as a backslash.

The ability to customize force levels is already in there so if servers want force jump/kick on a NF server they can turn it on.

The ability to turn off auto-blocking has just been anounced also. But honestly I think you give way more credit to auto blocking. The idea that somebody can just stand there in Red and block all Blue attacks is B.S. That may work in a test where all attacks are from the front but in a real duel all it takes are some low or back directed blue attacks to do damage. It is quite easy for Blue attacks to chip away at a heavy defender. In fact I usually use Blue against Red attackers to get in and hit then evade their counter-attack.

We need more creative server admins not a patch.

ArtifeX
05-20-2002, 04:21 PM
Originally posted by TexRoadkill
Apart from you radical suggestions which I dont really agree with there isnt much you suggest that cant be done with server settings. I only play NF Duels so I wont comment on Force Powers.

If servers would (and could?) lower the health to around 25-50% in the beginning of the match it would bring the damage ratios down. Now a lunge or heavy strike would be just as lethal as a backslash.

The ability to customize force levels is already in there so if servers want force jump/kick on a NF server they can turn it on.

The ability to turn off auto-blocking has just been anounced also. But honestly I think you give way more credit to auto blocking. The idea that somebody can just stand there in Red and block all Blue attacks is B.S. That may work in a test where all attacks are from the front but in a real duel all it takes are some low or back directed blue attacks to do damage. It is quite easy for Blue attacks to chip away at a heavy defender. In fact I usually use Blue against Red attackers to get in and hit then evade their counter-attack.

We need more creative server admins not a patch.

I disagree completely. Setting server variables (which wouldn't be detectable using the in-game browser, gamespy, ASE, or qtracker) to change the game away from its default gametype values would cause utter confusion when trying to join a server. It would also badly limit how many servers you had at your disposal when looking for a particular set of rules. Everyone would have different settings.

The changes I am proposing need to be made official in a patch so that those paying for a remote server (who may know little about how to run one), and ladder and tournament admins (who almost without exception go by default values) both have their games set up in a predictable manner so that you don't have to join and play for a while before you even realize what the rules are.

Once more let me reiterate that I still have an open challenge to anyone who thinks they can beat me using only Light style. I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong.

TexRoadkill
05-20-2002, 04:35 PM
You are assuming everybody would agree on any one standard and you should know that will never work. Different leagues should adopt the standards that they think will draw players.

Different strokes for different folks.

In regards to your challenge fighting in any one style would be foolish. I bet I can damage you in light but I would use other styles as any well balanced fighter should. If somebody could beat you using only blue then that would be an imbalance. Your challenge doesnt really prove anything.

crazyplaya73
05-20-2002, 04:49 PM
Saber throw needs to be fixed too. I don't want saber throw removed from duels as you suggest just these changes:

1) saber throw from in close does little to no damage and a saber could be knocked to the groung as in SP. This will put an end to the backpeddling throwing whores.

2) lower the damage slightly that saber throw does this will make it less appealing to use throw as a primary means of attack.

The point is to make throw into a good couter attack to certian moves. It has its place in the game but its too powerful in its current form. It should be used as a counter attack not as a primary attack.

Jah Warrior
05-20-2002, 05:30 PM
For 1.04

they should have the option to have jump without kick, kicking is for tekken man.

they should make all the power moves linear like the dfa,

they should make power moves harder to pull off, or make normal strikes more landable.

active blocking would be goodas it would be more like in the films then.

cant think of anything else.

dont play force servers so dont really care about that!

Jah

Jah Warrior
05-20-2002, 05:33 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX

Once more let me reiterate that I still have an open challenge to anyone who thinks they can beat me using only Light style. I'd be overjoyed to be proven wrong.

hehe sounds like you are setting yourself up for an embarresment man :D

Azraelt
05-20-2002, 06:02 PM
Anyone know raven's offical email or what I can do to contact them? I know they might not read it, but heck, it would make me feel better to let out the steam that has built up inside me after they ruined this game with the 1.03 patch.

Azraelt
05-20-2002, 06:04 PM
Oh, one more thing. I am thinking about uninstalling jkii then reinstalling it so it has the original specifications, but... is there a way so I would only see the 1.02 servers? Thanks.

Azraelt
05-20-2002, 08:29 PM
I noticed you think the removal of the medium spin move is a good thing, I disagree.

I do agree that it can be a problem, but not if used right, I found it extremely useful in duels and fights. Perhaps if they make it more difficult to do, but not so hard so that it is obsolete. The spin now, if you can call it that, is clumbsy and too difficult to be used effectively. With this new patch, the only thing medium can do is the simple normal swings, the finsher, and the back sweep. Which is decent, but it is also a problem. The patch seemingly makes it more difficult to do combo's because there are less moves per button command. The small combo's in conjuction with the swings (which were faster before), and the spin made the medium stance such the widly used stance that it was. This patch has taken away the good qualities of it. They have made saber combat more like it was in sp, which is a bad thing. Sure, we all like long drawn out fights, but what they did to the sabers was horrible. The original programming for sabers in MP was much better then the original saber in SP. With the old style of combat, the moves could flow together better. With this new style, I feel like this is JK1 again. I really enjoyed the saber combat before this patch, now they have taken that away. I am going to uninstall this patch and go back to 1.02. If I cannot find enough 1.02 servers, I will be uninstalling JK2. Thank you raven, in your attempts to fix the game you've caused more problems then you fixed and completly ruined this game imo. I don't think I will be purchasing any more Raven games in the future. I was looking forward to SOFII: Double Helix, but if you guys can't even patch a game properly, I don't want to buy the game then have it ruined by a patch a few months later.

Well that's my rant. Please make the saber combat like it was in 1.02. It doesn't matter if you want the saber combat all long and drawn out, it's what we want. Sure some people like it long and drawn out, I am one of them, but this is not the way to do it.

SilentDark
05-20-2002, 09:49 PM
they should also make wall kicking the way it originaly was. Just hit the jump button once, not twice. Its not realistic to bunny hop to someone and then kick them in the head.

Artifex, think that idea is worthy of your list?

crazyplaya73
05-20-2002, 10:08 PM
Saber throw needs to be fixed too. I don't want saber throw removed from duels as you suggest just these changes:

1) saber throw from in close does little to no damage and a saber could be knocked to the groung as in SP. This will put an end to the backpeddling throwing whores.

2) lower the damage slightly that saber throw does this will make it less appealing to use throw as a primary means of attack.

The point is to make throw into a good couter attack to certian moves. It has its place in the game but its too powerful in its current form. It should be used as a counter attack not as a primary attack.


I also forgot one other big thing that you can add to your list:

FORWARD STAB - we need a forward stab move in every stance. This will get us fighting face to face again as opposed to ass to ass. Back stab is meant to be a counter move or a surprise attack not a primary offensive move. How could there be a back stab and no forward stab. Jedi's haven't figured out this move yet? Come on. If you make these additions / changes to your list then it would be complete.
Peace!

Sutek
05-20-2002, 10:36 PM
No, your suggestion would unduly cripple the dark side by giving it no way to heal. Also, Protect is no longer worthless. It, along with Dark Rage, can protect you from a one-hit kill after a knockdown.

Compare protect against Dark rage - Dark rage makes you INVINCIBLE while the power is active, whereas Protect uses your force bar as a shield bar, and a poor one at that. Where is the comparison? Protect might let you survive with a hp or two, but dark rage lets you ignore *IGNORE* the blow, jump up twice as fast, beat the living snot out of them and carry on. How is that not more powerful than Protect? My point WAS that the Dark side is more focused on damage and attack, whereas the Light side is focused on healing and defence - they are opposite viewpoints. Please bear in mind that this is *my* opinion on how the force is divided, but yes, this *might* not allow for balanced gameplay. I think that it needs testing and consideration (it may have been, in which case I stand corrected), rather than total dismissal. The above merely requires the Dark side player to concentrate on making a quick and brutal kill, while the light side player should be thinking more about defence than offence. Just an opinion, no need to jump on me. Sheesh.

I only offered an alternative idea to yours on Drain for consideration. That was all. I did not say yours was bad, I just offerend my own and my reasons for thinking it *might* be better suited. Up to you if you agree or not.

Any idiot who does nothing but lightning, drain, lightning...ad nauseam will be quickly wiped out by a good player. For instance, Absorb requires only 10 points to turn on. if they use lightning on you, then you can cut absorb on in the middle of the blast and regain whatever force power they use up.

I *know* that. Do you not think I eliminate them for breakfast? (sometimes literally, I play when I feel like it). It is simply a tactic I have noted, and thought it particularly worthy of derision.

Absorb only needed to be empowered in 1.02 because Drain was overpowered. If they cut the range in half as i suggest, that won't be a problem any longer. My Absorb suggestions stands.

I think then that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one, but I will point out that there are more considerations here than Drain alone - the pull/backstabbers, the grippers, the push-you-off-ledges-as-you-swingers, etc. In an extended fight against some of these you might want it for short periods (against the grippers), or for long periods (as you saber fight a pull/backstabber you is really only waiting for an opportunity to play his favourite move).

Kicking is pathetically easy to avoid and counter. The addition of it to no-force games just expands on the attack options available--that is never a bad thing.

I was thinking of the people who kick you over, then kick you over again as you get up and try to move away, and who then do it again, and again, and again. Most of my problems are with people who spam one move, and against them I eventually leanr what is the best way to counter. That was my only concern here. I don't really object to the use of kicking on NF duels, but I'm still unhappy with Saber Throw.

Simpler, yes. Better, no. I'd rather have a more complicated solution that fixes the problem than a simple one that doesn't. Whatever level you pick of Sight currently is of no consequence. I am talking about a proposed version of the game.
Not being able to see someone with lvl 3 Mind Trick at all even when you have level 2 Sight is ludicrous.

And why pray tell is it ludicrous? When you have person A who is better trained at hiding than person B is at spotting, do you not think they should be rewarded for spending their points thus, and sacrificing in others? I didn't provide a complete solution there, only an ALTERNATIVE as before. My reasons for that solution were as I stated above, no more. It is perhaps possible to allow people with sight 2 to detect level 3 at close range, but not long, and so on down the chain. At identical levels you have a choice - either they can see at medium range, or they can see only close up (most people use it close range anyway). This is very similar to your suggestion, and I wanted a solution that was simpler to code. It would fix the problem quite effectively, and would require more TEAMWORK from players (eg a "spotter" who looks out for cloaked players). I like teamwork. It's more rewarding.

Let me clarify. A secondary attack could be initiated by being in extreme close range and hitting some combination like back+attack. That might swing some kind of punch, or kick, or whatever. I'll let the animators figure that out.

Fair enough, I suppsoe I wasn't really thinking about it like that (it was late OK?)

I don't see any problem with usage there. It's very similar to the way kicking is now. Do you have problems saber fighting AND kicking?

You know, for someone who INVITED comments and suggestions, you are being very antsy about actually RECEIVING any. There is no need for that kind of condescending tone whatsoever. If you REALLY wanted comments, try being more constructive, rather than hinting that the suggester may be incompetent because they don't see things the way you do.

Reread my comments about problems in 1.03. You can defend against Light style swings even while using a Force power such as Drain or Lightning. I'm simply saying that needs to be fixed.

And I was agreeing. Did you read what I said? Of course you shouldn't be able to block ANYTHING if you are busy doing something else. Light stance, red stance, puce stance, it doesn't matter.

Finally, about the multiple sabers/dual saber thing. My reasons for suggesting you fiddled them around a bit are thus: (I had hoped you would see them, oh well)
mmm, slow single saber vs either twin sabers or a double bladed one? No chance

This is because Strong stance is slow. It may do a lot of damage, but compare it to a medium speed double ended attack - two blows doing reasonable damage in quick succession. Take one miss0swing and it's goodbye Kansas. Now compare it to twin stance - two blows in quick succession doing little damage, chance for a high rate of weak blows. Hmm, I swing my saber, miss you (or you ignore it and take the damage) as you step quickly in and pummel me senseless with your two sabers, one maybe *maybe* bouncing off my returning red saber, the other hammering my unprotected head? I suggested yellow as the "default" single saber stance because it was moderately fast and dealt moderate damage. It has no especial weak points as it strikes fast and returns to ready fast, while still retaining the ability to HURT and opponent. THOSE were my reasons for suggesting it. The damage could always be upped for medium or the speed of red increased for that matter, but you couldn't have a balanced substiution straight out of the box as it were, because you and I both KNOW that it would result in no-one touching the single saber stance - the other two would be too powerful.

Gar Suul Von
05-20-2002, 11:46 PM
some great points, but i have to counter you on the kicking thing.
the reason i play on servers where force jump is 1, is to avoid the kick. i am starting to see people do nothing but run away, kick, run away, kick.... i even saw one person that didn't even draw their saber for an entire duel, and he won?
i am not saying to remove it completely, but i think it would be perfect as just a knockdown, with little or no damage dealt.

Sutek
05-20-2002, 11:58 PM
I stated that before, and ArtifeX all but flamed me for it "kicking is so pathetically easy to avoid" were his words I believe...

I liked the original NF duels, and I have adapted to the new ones, and that's probably the only advice I can give really (one move I like remembering is that if they go for a double kick and didn't knock you down the first time, jump immediately after the first kick as if trying to kick them, and they will position themselves for a textbook facewalk as they automatically come in for their second kick :> )

Since kicking now requires a second tap of jump, you can perform it long after the original jump has been performed, so long as a suitable "surface" is available. Don't forget the standard "step sideways and slash just as they come in for a kick" move. Works fairly often too. And they look stoopid :>

Redwyng
05-20-2002, 11:59 PM
I think there's a simple but probably effective solution to pull-backstab:

If you have lvl 3 push, you should not be pulled to the ground unless you have fallen under the 'support level' (similar to the counter if you are standing still). Likewise, if you have lvl 3 pull, you should not be pushed to the ground unless you are below the support level. This would largely prevent people from spamming the pull-backstab, but keeping the backstab a powerful but situational move.

Azraelt
05-21-2002, 12:05 AM
Artifex, for someone who wants comments, you really are being rude to the other posters. Instead of lashing out at people just because they have a different opinion then you, try to see it form their point of view and take their opinion into consideration instead of dismissing it.

Ten Tigers
05-21-2002, 12:07 AM
Looks like Im a little late in getting to this thread. But here is my two cents anyways...

First of all, I am exceedingly glad that they put the single player animations for Grip into multiplayer. I love the way grip victims dangle now as opposed to the prepatch way of just standing or crouching in mid-air.

However grip is virtually useless for anything exept grip/dropping. And even that is not as effective as it used to be.

Grip takes a signifigant ammount of force, limits your mobility, and takes a long time to deal insignifigant damage. Generaly you will only kill someone with grip if they are on their last leg of health. And that's if you manage to keep them for the full duration, which all but the most inexperienced gammer should be able to do now that the mobility has been restricted.

So this move needs to either have it's damage increased, or it's range increased. Which is another point. In order to grip someone you have to get so close that you could choke them with your bare hand.

More damage or more range. The ability to choke the $hit out of someone like Lord Vader is one of the main reasons I got the game...

-thefly-
05-21-2002, 04:14 AM
Artifex has talked the talk...
.....and now he's walked the walk.

Check-out http://ladder.iglnet.com/ for the low-down.

Looks like ArtifeX IS an authority on the subject matter

Nathan Wind
05-21-2002, 06:05 AM
1 fundamental thing that artifex keeps saying that people should realize: making powers weaker only eliminates options.

Ten Tigers
05-21-2002, 06:39 AM
Congrats Artifex. Preach the WORD brotha'...


MORE power...
MORE options...

Sutek
05-21-2002, 08:48 AM
Actually, grip is one of the more effective and useful dark side powers. Most of the time you aren't going to be using it for the damage side since it renders your opponent helpless for a few seconds after you finish using it.

The fact that you can swing them around into floors and stuff, or point them up into the air and fling them miles with force push obviously limit the range and usefulness of this power :>

Vader only ever used this power at close range too, so you already have that, and they were mooks, not jedi that he was choking.

I certainly agree that ArtifeX is damned good saber fighter, but that doesn't necessarily make him the authority on what makes a good change to the existing game. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and can have good ideas, but is ArtifeX a professional game tester, rather than a user with some ideas? I mean, the only REAL authority I would accept are a) a real life jedi, complete with REAL lightsaber (not the fake ones you can buy) or b) George Lucas coming in and telling what HE thought it should be.
Anyone else is just an opinion.

For those who keep citing the movies as a better source on what gets used and what doesn't, I might point you towards the StarWars RPGs, in particular the older d6 based system by West End Games (as it was then) - in that there was no pull/push as such, instead a telekinesis power. Grip was it's own power, but it was a specialised use of TK anyway. Force lightning was a separate power, as were heal and heal other (but those two weren't the magic healing of the game, just accelerated healing). Force absorb was for ENERGY, nor force powers, and primarily of use against blasters (See Empire Strikes back for when Vader Absorbs Han's blaster shot). No force protect, dark rage, energise, drain or mind trick. The closest to mind trick was Alter Mind, which was the trick Ben Kenobi used on the stormtroopers to make them think "these aren't the droids they were looking for". Saber throw wasn't even a power as I recall, but on that count I may be wrong. The powers in the RPG books were VERY closely based on what was seen to happen in the movies (and, later on, some books), rather than WHAT WOULD MAKE A GOOD POWER TO HAVE IN A COMPUTER GAME.

Etz
05-21-2002, 08:54 AM
Hmmm...
this is pretty moot point but Vader actually gripped an officer who was on different space ship in one of the movies. Probably several kilometers away, he did have visual contact via a monitor though.

Sutek
05-21-2002, 09:01 AM
I think the distance could have been measured in light-years to be honest.

Similarly though, that was only one occasion, and it certainly didn't make it into the games :> (RPG or otherwise).

That would be horribly broken - "Hello, my name is Darth Sniping-Grip. I'll kill you when you are but a dot on the horizon"

Etz
05-21-2002, 09:31 AM
Yes I think that could be somewhat amusing *shudder*.

Anyway nobody in their right mind would actually suggest adding something like that in the game. I actually just remembered that Vader didn't even see the person he gripped, the officer he saw in the screen was another one.

ArtifeX
05-21-2002, 10:49 AM
Sorry if I offended anyone. My patience was running thin after replying to some people who had posted requests for changes to the game based off nothing but their inexperience. (*cough* bambers *cough*)

Originally posted by Sutek


Compare protect against Dark rage - Dark rage makes you INVINCIBLE while the power is active, whereas Protect uses your force bar as a shield bar, and a poor one at that. Where is the comparison? Protect might let you survive with a hp or two, but dark rage lets you ignore *IGNORE* the blow, jump up twice as fast, beat the living snot out of them and carry on. How is that not more powerful than Protect? My point WAS that the Dark side is more focused on damage and attack, whereas the Light side is focused on healing and defence - they are opposite viewpoints. Please bear in mind that this is *my* opinion on how the force is divided, but yes, this *might* not allow for balanced gameplay. I think that it needs testing and consideration (it may have been, in which case I stand corrected), rather than total dismissal. The above merely requires the Dark side player to concentrate on making a quick and brutal kill, while the light side player should be thinking more about defence than offence. Just an opinion, no need to jump on me. Sheesh.


I agree that Dark rage is the more powerful of the two, but remember that you have to have 50% of your JM level Force Pool to even turn it on. Also, only 50% of the damage that you take is ignored. The rest is distributed to your shields and health as normal.


I only offered an alternative idea to yours on Drain for consideration. That was all. I did not say yours was bad, I just offerend my own and my reasons for thinking it *might* be better suited. Up to you if you agree or not.

I *know* that. Do you not think I eliminate them for breakfast? (sometimes literally, I play when I feel like it). It is simply a tactic I have noted, and thought it particularly worthy of derision.

I think then that we shall have to agree to disagree on this one, but I will point out that there are more considerations here than Drain alone - the pull/backstabbers, the grippers, the push-you-off-ledges-as-you-swingers, etc. In an extended fight against some of these you might want it for short periods (against the grippers), or for long periods (as you saber fight a pull/backstabber you is really only waiting for an opportunity to play his favourite move).


I think Absorb is powerful enough in 1.02 to deal with any of those situations. I'd still like it to remain invisible though.


I was thinking of the people who kick you over, then kick you over again as you get up and try to move away, and who then do it again, and again, and again. Most of my problems are with people who spam one move, and against them I eventually leanr what is the best way to counter. That was my only concern here. I don't really object to the use of kicking on NF duels, but I'm still unhappy with Saber Throw.


It's much more difficult to kick someone more than twice now because of the added air time you get from your initial jump. Most of the time you can get up before they can land a second one. Besides, be glad that they didn't backstab you while you were on the ground instead of kicking you.

Saber Throw in NF isn't a problem anymore. ChangKhan clarified there was a change to the forceDisable bitmask in 1.03 that was causing NF server to have saber throw.


And why pray tell is it ludicrous? When you have person A who is better trained at hiding than person B is at spotting, do you not think they should be rewarded for spending their points thus, and sacrificing in others? I didn't provide a complete solution there, only an ALTERNATIVE as before. My reasons for that solution were as I stated above, no more. It is perhaps possible to allow people with sight 2 to detect level 3 at close range, but not long, and so on down the chain. At identical levels you have a choice - either they can see at medium range, or they can see only close up (most people use it close range anyway). This is very similar to your suggestion, and I wanted a solution that was simpler to code. It would fix the problem quite effectively, and would require more TEAMWORK from players (eg a "spotter" who looks out for cloaked players). I like teamwork. It's more rewarding.


While a "spotter" might be fine for team games. A duel match with this setup would result in someone with lvl 3 mindtrick being invisible the whole time with no way for the opponent to counter it unless they changed their force setup to include lvl 3 sight.

Your point is also valid for the person spending the points for lvl 2 Sight. If he can't see lvl 3 Tricks at all, then why buy level 2 at all?

All-or-nothing is never desirable over a more analog solution.


Fair enough, I suppsoe I wasn't really thinking about it like that (it was late OK?)

You know, for someone who INVITED comments and suggestions, you are being very antsy about actually RECEIVING any. There is no need for that kind of condescending tone whatsoever. If you REALLY wanted comments, try being more constructive, rather than hinting that the suggester may be incompetent because they don't see things the way you do.


Again, sorry if i offended you. I do believe my comments to you were constructive.


And I was agreeing. Did you read what I said? Of course you shouldn't be able to block ANYTHING if you are busy doing something else. Light stance, red stance, puce stance, it doesn't matter.


The small comment you made about a person not defending themselves was buried at the end of a paragraph that began with you disagreeing with what I said. It was a vague enough statement to lead me to believe that it also was disagreeing.


Finally, about the multiple sabers/dual saber thing. My reasons for suggesting you fiddled them around a bit are thus: (I had hoped you would see them, oh well)


This is because Strong stance is slow. It may do a lot of damage, but compare it to a medium speed double ended attack - two blows doing reasonable damage in quick succession. Take one miss0swing and it's goodbye Kansas. Now compare it to twin stance - two blows in quick succession doing little damage, chance for a high rate of weak blows. Hmm, I swing my saber, miss you (or you ignore it and take the damage) as you step quickly in and pummel me senseless with your two sabers, one maybe *maybe* bouncing off my returning red saber, the other hammering my unprotected head? I suggested yellow as the "default" single saber stance because it was moderately fast and dealt moderate damage. It has no especial weak points as it strikes fast and returns to ready fast, while still retaining the ability to HURT and opponent. THOSE were my reasons for suggesting it. The damage could always be upped for medium or the speed of red increased for that matter, but you couldn't have a balanced substiution straight out of the box as it were, because you and I both KNOW that it would result in no-one touching the single saber stance - the other two would be too powerful.

I was speaking about the two new styles as if they included all the changes I suggested to Light and Medium in the non-"radical" section including lengthened range and slower attack speed. Also, I'm adding a section to my L & M requests that will include shortening the swing arcs of both of those stances to make up for the slower swing speed. That way the swings will be controllable, but still have greater swing speed than the strong style.

ArtifeX
05-21-2002, 10:53 AM
I was a little hard on Sutek, but Bambers deserved what he got and more for posting flamebait.

Originally posted by Azraelt
Artifex, for someone who wants comments, you really are being rude to the other posters. Instead of lashing out at people just because they have a different opinion then you, try to see it form their point of view and take their opinion into consideration instead of dismissing it.

ArtifeX
05-21-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Sutek
Actually, grip is one of the more effective and useful dark side powers. Most of the time you aren't going to be using it for the damage side since it renders your opponent helpless for a few seconds after you finish using it.


I still think half your force pool would be better spent on Push/Pull, Drain or Dark Rage. Especially if you're playing against a light-sider. Grip is just too expensive for the minimal usefulness it has right now.


The fact that you can swing them around into floors and stuff, or point them up into the air and fling them miles with force push obviously limit the range and usefulness of this power :>


Are you saying that the only usefulness is swinging them around and using the 'jedi cannon'? I'm really not tryin to get on your case here--i just am not sure what you mean.

I haven't noticed any damage from swinging people around into walls and such. Anyone seen this?


Vader only ever used this power at close range too, so you already have that, and they were mooks, not jedi that he was choking.

I certainly agree that ArtifeX is damned good saber fighter, but that doesn't necessarily make him the authority on what makes a good change to the existing game. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and can have good ideas, but is ArtifeX a professional game tester, rather than a user with some ideas? I mean, the only REAL authority I would accept are a) a real life jedi, complete with REAL lightsaber (not the fake ones you can buy) or b) George Lucas coming in and telling what HE thought it should be.
Anyone else is just an opinion.


1. Professional playtesters are the ones who put their stamp of approval on 1.02 and 1.03.
2. George Lucas doesn't know dick about making a fun computer game. I trust him to know his characters and his universe, but never to design a game.


For those who keep citing the movies as a better source on what gets used and what doesn't, I might point you towards the StarWars RPGs, in particular the older d6 based system by West End Games (as it was then) - in that there was no pull/push as such, instead a telekinesis power. Grip was it's own power, but it was a specialised use of TK anyway. Force lightning was a separate power, as were heal and heal other (but those two weren't the magic healing of the game, just accelerated healing). Force absorb was for ENERGY, nor force powers, and primarily of use against blasters (See Empire Strikes back for when Vader Absorbs Han's blaster shot). No force protect, dark rage, energise, drain or mind trick. The closest to mind trick was Alter Mind, which was the trick Ben Kenobi used on the stormtroopers to make them think "these aren't the droids they were looking for". Saber throw wasn't even a power as I recall, but on that count I may be wrong. The powers in the RPG books were VERY closely based on what was seen to happen in the movies (and, later on, some books), rather than WHAT WOULD MAKE A GOOD POWER TO HAVE IN A COMPUTER GAME.

Pen and paper rpg's are a completely different medium. What is fun on paper may be boring as hell on a computer. I would rather them deviate from the Star Wars movies a bit in favor of a better game than hold hard and true to only what we've seen in the films.

ArtifeX
05-21-2002, 11:05 AM
Originally posted by -thefly-
Artifex has talked the talk...
.....and now he's walked the walk.

Check-out http://ladder.iglnet.com/ for the low-down.

Looks like ArtifeX IS an authority on the subject matter

Thanks. Check the *ASC* site for an announcement regarding the prize(s) I won.

http://www.oculis.org/asc/

Orangina_Rouge
05-21-2002, 12:22 PM
I mostly agree with what you proposed Artifex

I also proposed something to maybe balance stances :Stun motion (http://www.lucasforums.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=54358)

Also i think that push/pull must be dealt with to have somewhat little effect on saber users like in SP ( u can read this too in the thread i linked above )

Nathan Wind
05-21-2002, 12:56 PM
Im glad to see artifex can defend himself, espicially against the ever popular "what George Lucas wanted" argument.

One thing i have a big problem with is invisible absorb though. It really changes the way it is used. If that was the only change in .02, it would still give the light siders a huge edge. I guess a possible counter to this would be allow people with force sight to gather more information (such as absorb status) on people, rather than just being able to see them through walls.

But that too would drastically alter the game play.

I cannot see how an invisible absorb would make the game play even. The only purpose for it that ive seen in arguments so far are in a "wouldnt it be neat if..." function.

It makes it uneven, i cannot stress this enough. Better to make drain/dark rage invisible as well.

Solo4114
05-21-2002, 01:55 PM
Honestly, I have very little by way of problems with 1.03. I realize that that's not a terribly popular view to be espousing in this thread, but hey, what the hell.

I actually like the increased blocking, and now that we have information on how to tone down blocking as a server-side variable, I hope they leave it as is. If you want to dumb down blocking on your server, go for it. If not, that's fine too.

As far as the force powers go, I think heal might've been nerfed a BIT too much, but I don't have that much problem with it, given the corresponding nerf to drain. I wouldn't mind if both were beefed up a bit, though.

As far as grip goes, I've been trying to come up with a way to make it more useful, and as long as absorb exists and remains invisible, it won't be very useful. I think maybe the best way to handle grip would be to have it still immobilize you, but not damage you, if you have the same level absorb as the level of grip used on you. IE: if I approach and grip with lvl 2, and the other guy has absorb 2, he should remain stuck in mid-air, absorbing the force energy, but not taking damage. Thus, he'd still have to push me or sabre throw at me to get me to drop him. This may actually be in the game already. I haven't tested it.

Push and pull are fine as they are. Prior to the ass-master phenomenon, they were never much of a problem anyway. They just added another dimension to game play.

Absorb must stay invisible. This is the only way for it to be an effective power. If it's visible, people will simply wait out the absorbers. There's no benefit to dark side in making drain invisible, especially given that they have to target it visually. That said, I think that a bit higher force consumption may be in order for it. Or a larger initial hit to your force pool, if not an upping of the consumption rate. This should stay constant at ALL levels of absorb. IE: lvl 1, 2, and 3, all take 20% of your pool to activate, and consume at a rate of, say, a bar per 2 seconds or what have you. The effect of having lvl 1, 2, or 3, is in the countering of other powers. This is already implemented in the game to an extent. IE: if someone attacks me with lightning 3 and I only have absorb 2, yes, I'll absorb the force power from the attack, but I'll still take damage. This is how things should stay, I think. IE: if a guy attacks you with drain 2 and you have absorb 1, you should be able to only reduce the speed at which your force power is drained, but you WILL be drained. I would like to see drain suck health and not force, though. That'd make life interesting, I think, and would make it a more "offensive" power, in keeping with the dark side theme.

Dark rage and protect I hardly ever use, so I can't really comment on them. Mind trick should be balanced a bit better in correspondence with force seeing, I think. Either mind trick at higher levels of force seeing would render force seeing useless (IE: MT3 and FS2 means you can't see the guy), or force seeing needs to be nerfed in terms of duration.

Now, as for sabre combat, I wouldn't mind seeing the damage of regular swings returned to 1.02 levels in terms of the regular swings, so long as the blocking remains the same. I think that'd be a good balance, personally. Light stance is far from useless in my book, since it's the best defensive stance out there. It'll block more stuff than medium stance, and isn't really designed to deal out damage. Medium stance is, I think, well balanced in terms of its damage, speed, and blocking potential. Strong stance is better than it was, but I think it should chain a BIT more easily, maybe. I hardly ever use strong stance anyway, though. I much prefer a faster, more defensive style of combat (but hey, what do you expect from a guy who plays mostly light-side). I like to wait my opponent out until he makes a crucial mistake, then go in with medium stance. That or charge the guy and hit him a ton of times with light or medium stance. One or the other.

Now, as for the backstab moves....these are a HUGE problem. I don't think that reducing blocking will help solve this problem either. I think that as long as a one-hit kill move exists in the game, and is unblockable, people will use it. Especially if there's no downside to using it. People don't really have to run around backwards to do this move, that's just the inexperienced ass-masters out there. There are plenty of folks who can run up to you, do a quick 180, and backstab you. Now, while this isn't so much of a problem with a one-on-one fight (I usually just keep doing flip kicks to piss the other guy off), when you get on a server with 5 or 6 people doing the backstab, it can be pretty hard to defend against. Especially if you want to get any kills, because the entire group of players will cluster into the center trying to do a backstab that kills 4 guys at once. So, even if you play at the edge of this mosh pit, you'll still end up low man on the totem. Personally, I think the backstab should have its damage severely nerfed. I don't think it should be a one hit kill. It should remain unblockable (in keeping with the "surprise!" theme of the move), but should deal out the same amount of damage as a regular swing, or less, perhaps, in the case of strong stance or medium stance's swings, since they can hit multiple times. Grand total for damage for any of these swings should not be higher than, say, 60 or 70 for strong stance, and less as you go down the ladder of stances. If this was changed in correspondence with bringing back the swing damage of 1.02, I think the game would still play fairly quickly, but still offer fun to guys like me who prefer a longer duel. Finally, the backstab should be made absolutely stationary. When you execute it, you CANNOT move. Not vertically, or laterally. The recover time can be the same, if they nerf the damage, though.

Put simply, one hit kills do NOT belong in a game like this, unless ALL hits are one hit kills (or one or two hit kills). Why? Because it inherently unbalances the game and reduces combat to a series of people doing nothing BUT that move. Unless a one-hit kill has SERIOUS drawbacks (IE: what they did with DFA, which was, in my opinion, absolutely the right way to handle that), people will spam it. Plain and simple. Because they CAN, and because there's no way to stop it and no cost associated with it.

I'm a big believer in game balance through a cost-benefit system. You can have high benefits, but there have to be high costs associated with that benefit, especially in a game like this, where you have such a variety of styles of play, force powers, and sabre moves.

Anyway, back to the patch. As far as guns go, I have no problem with them. I've played CTF and FFA with guns and have had NO problems killing plenty of people, even with the higher ammo consumption. If you want more ammo on your maps, edit the maps and put more ammo in. Though personally, I don't think it's needed.

That's it! Those are my views. To be perfectly honest, I still very much enjoy 1.03, even with all the nerfing and increased blocking. If they could fix the backstab, I'd say they'd have a damn fine game on their hands, and would be perfectly happy to play it. 1.03 without the backstab would be great. The above changes, I think, would make the game better, though. Just my opinion, based on my own experiences.

Chewie Bakker
05-21-2002, 02:01 PM
I think having Absorb invisible until Force-attacked is a good idea. The Jedi use the Force passively so their skills would be easier hidden. The Sith have a more aggressive and generally more obvious Force use.

I read somewhere that in battle, the Jedi use the Force to increase their offensive and defensive capabilities while the Sith try to break the spirit of the Jedi. I wonder if this could be incorporated somehow into JK2...

:yobi: (wulu@ihug.com.au)

Nathan Wind
05-21-2002, 02:33 PM
Try and stay away from the theoretical please!!

I donít care what George Lucas wants, or what you think jedi SHOULD play like as far as keeping in theme with Star Wars. These issues must be abandoned with the conclusion of the initial planning phase.

THE POINT of a visible absorb is for darkies to wait for it to go off to use their powers. IT was NOT meant to prevent dark powers from hurting lighties, but to discourage them from using it. (Even though now the opposite can be proven with .03). THERE CAN BE NO COUNTER FOR THIS!! There needs to be an instantaneous heavily damaging long distance dark force power to even come close to making up for this, i.e. force destruction.

This would totally change the game pace and dynamic, as Iím sure anyone could see.

These powers meant people had to get down and dirty. Light couldnít turn on absorb until it was proven necessary, and even then it had to remain off to keep the user's force pools high enough for other viable means of combat.

Dark siders SHOULD have waited until they could tell it was off to use their power, thatís the dark strategy. In an ffa with major action going on at once, a player couldnít be bothered to be stuck listening for what they think could be absorb turning on.


Why play dark then? Seriously? Why waste time in powers that work on an if-fy (at best) basis?

The fact that all dark powers take time and absorb is instant mean absorb has the upper hand. It was fine the way it was. The system works no other way as is.

In order to balance it, NO force powers what so ever should be accessible to someone who has absorb on, including jump. This is the only draw back severe enough to balance the fact that an instantaneous power that counters all others is now invisible.

I do not believe in weakening some aspects (neutering them effectively) to balance a game out however. Rather empower the ones that do balance it out (in the grand scheme of things mind you)

The 2 things I am most passionate about are the guns and the invisible absorb, and you hit them both. It is obvious that you are a light sided saberist and do not play at tournament level games.

People, do your homework. That gives you the most credibility. And stay away from the theoretical. Thatís silly. George Lucas did not make these games! Is it not better to liken JO to DF2:JK than to the movies?

I donít know how "political corruption" can manifest itself as a playable force power.

And for the record, grip is now useless if it wasnít before. Dropping was the only time it was useful and now that you walk thatís done with too.

Might as well make the game light side only to begin with.

ArtifeX
05-21-2002, 02:52 PM
_paraphrased_
Originally posted by Solo4114
Honestly, I have very little by way of problems with 1.03. I realize that that's not a terribly popular view to be espousing in this thread, but hey, what the hell.

I actually like the increased blocking, and now that we have information on how to tone down blocking as a server-side variable, I hope they leave it as is...


I still think using server variables to tweak each individual server would cause a lot of confusion. Imagine being new to FPS's and not understanding why the rules for the same gametype keep changing based on which server you join. Which ruleset would you then practice if you wanted to compete in a clan or ladder later? The vanilla default values will always be played more than anything else. I'm hoping that these will be set to something that's conducive to game balance already, rather than forcing admins to stray from them.


As far as the force powers go, I think heal might've been nerfed a BIT too much, but I don't have that much problem with it, given the corresponding nerf to drain. I wouldn't mind if both were beefed up a bit, though.

As far as grip goes, I've been trying to come up with a way to make it more useful, and as long as absorb exists and remains invisible, it won't be very useful. I think maybe the best way to handle grip would be to have it still immobilize you...


Think what that would allow in team games. Your buddy holds the Absorber, you do a backsweep or DFA on the immobile and helpless opponent. There'd be no way to defend against that if it was done properly and swiftly.


Push and pull are fine as they are. Prior to the ass-master phenomenon, they were never much of a problem anyway. They just added another dimension to game play.

Absorb must stay invisible. This is the only way for it to be an effective power. If it's visible, people will simply wait out the absorbers. There's no benefit to dark side in making drain invisible, especially given that they have to target it visually. That said, I think that a bit higher force consumption may be in order for it...


Absorb's initial use cost needs to remain the same, otherwise Drainers would be able to keep your force power drained with no chance of countering them. As it is now, if you can get out of line-of-sight for 2 or 3 seconds, you can cut Absorb back on long enough to defend against any follow-up force attacks.


Now, as for sabre combat, I wouldn't mind seeing the damage of regular swings returned to 1.02 levels in terms of the regular swings, so long as the blocking remains the same. I think that'd be a good balance, personally. Light stance is far from useless in my book, since it's the best defensive stance out there...


Let me once more dispell the myth of Light Stance as the best defensive stance. My research has shown that is has the worst defensive capabilities of all 3 stances, and is worse in 1.03 than it is in 1.02! A Light Stance defender can have his saber batted about like a windsock in a thunderstorm by someone using the Strong Stance. This means that all these people who say that they just block a swing then counterattack are relying on luck to determine whether or not they can counterattack after a block. Against a Strong Stance swing, there's a very high chance that your saber will be knocked away, makin a counter-attack impossible and opening you up to the second swing in a Strong combo.

You can also penetrate Light Defenses 100% at close range with Strong, and to a lesser degree, Medium.


Now, as for the backstab moves....these are a HUGE problem. I don't think that reducing blocking will help solve this problem either. I think that as long as a one-hit kill move exists in the game, and is unblockable, people will use it. Especially if there's no downside to using it....

Put simply, one hit kills do NOT belong in a game like this, unless ALL hits are one hit kills (or one or two hit kills). Why? Because it inherently unbalances the game and reduces combat to a series of people doing nothing BUT that move. Unless a one-hit kill has SERIOUS drawbacks (IE: what they did with DFA, which was, in my opinion, absolutely the right way to handle that), people will spam it. Plain and simple. Because they CAN, and because there's no way to stop it and no cost associated with it.


I fervently agree about cost vs. benefit. All of my suggestions were an attempt to balance the cost/benefit ratio of everything that I thought was out of whack. However, I do think that the benefits of the DFA are now negligable. They need to add a bit more bite to that move, as it's the most dangerous move to execute now.

ArtifeX
05-21-2002, 03:04 PM
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
(snip)

THE POINT of a visible absorb is for darkies to wait for it to go off to use their powers. IT was NOT meant to prevent dark powers from hurting lighties, but to discourage them from using it. (Even though now the opposite can be proven with .03). THERE CAN BE NO COUNTER FOR THIS!! There needs to be an instantaneous heavily damaging long distance dark force power to even come close to making up for this, i.e. force destruction.

This would totally change the game pace and dynamic, as Iím sure anyone could see.


Nathan, I understand what you're saying, but if you listen carefully you can hear when they have absorb turned on. Even at quite a distance, and you can hear it very clearly when it is first turned on. If you can't hear it, then turn off the music and/or use headphones. Trust me, it's there for you to hear if you learn to.

Lightning would seem to fit the bill for what you want anyway if you're talking about instant-hit. The range is somewhat limited, but duel maps are quite small anyway. You can also use a quick tap of Drain to test whether they have absorb on or not--it uses up very little Force and gives them back just as little.

I would actually say that the addition of a long-range, instant-hit damage power like Force Destruction would help the light sider rather than hinder him. When you're that far away, you can't hear whether his absorb is on or not, so you'd have to fire off a round to check--that Force you used would get transferred to him if you were wrong. I'd just hang out at long range and let my opponent expend all of his Force doing that, then move in for the kill.


These powers meant people had to get down and dirty. Light couldnít turn on absorb until it was proven necessary, and even then it had to remain off to keep the user's force pools high enough for other viable means of combat.

Dark siders SHOULD have waited until they could tell it was off to use their power, thatís the dark strategy. In an ffa with major action going on at once, a player couldnít be bothered to be stuck listening for what they think could be absorb turning on.


Why play dark then? Seriously? Why waste time in powers that work on an if-fy (at best) basis?

The fact that all dark powers take time and absorb is instant mean absorb has the upper hand. It was fine the way it was. The system works no other way as is.

In order to balance it, NO force powers what so ever should be accessible to someone who has absorb on, including jump. This is the only draw back severe enough to balance the fact that an instantaneous power that counters all others is now invisible.

I do not believe in weakening some aspects (neutering them effectively) to balance a game out however. Rather empower the ones that do balance it out (in the grand scheme of things mind you)

The 2 things I am most passionate about are the guns and the invisible absorb, and you hit them both. It is obvious that you are a light sided saberist and do not play at tournament level games.

People, do your homework. That gives you the most credibility. And stay away from the theoretical. Thatís silly. George Lucas did not make these games! Is it not better to liken JO to DF2:JK than to the movies?

I donít know how "political corruption" can manifest itself as a playable force power.

And for the record, grip is now useless if it wasnít before. Dropping was the only time it was useful and now that you walk thatís done with too.

Might as well make the game light side only to begin with.

Good thoughts overall, though. Sounds like we agree on most everything. If you want to see what I mean by the absorb sound, then watch the *ASC* site for when my game server goes up and drop by when i'm there. I'll demonstrate it for you.

Nathan Wind
05-21-2002, 03:08 PM
in duels, its fine.

im all about the ffa though :)

FatalStrike
05-21-2002, 03:41 PM
I haven't had a chance to read all the postings so if I repeat someone else's post I apologize in advance.

I read the changes and I thought they were fantastic. The radical changes were a bit far-fetched but they would be excellent to see.

I would add one thing, the DFA should be able to turn in the air again. It should NOT be nearly as strong as it is but with out the ability to turn it is too easily avoided, any NewB can move one inch left or right, and it's suicide to use it against anyone that has any skill. It is an excellent move that has been ruined by over use to rack up points in FFA. Bring it back and lower its power!

Also can we please speed the dang game up, its SO SLOW with this dumb update. I switched back to 1.02 after playing for a week on 1.03 and it felt like I was playing with force speed on even though I didn't have force powers.

FatalStrike
05-21-2002, 04:11 PM
Previous posting:
"A Light Stance defender can have his saber batted about like a windsock in a thunderstorm by someone using the Strong Stance. This means that all these people who say that they just block a swing then counterattack are relying on luck to determine whether or not they can counterattack after a block. Against a Strong Stance swing, there's a very high chance that your saber will be knocked away, makin a counter-attack impossible and opening you up to the second swing in a Strong combo.

You can also penetrate Light Defenses 100% at close range with Strong, and to a lesser degree, Medium."
____________________________________
Ok people I am sick of reading this nonsense about how poor light stance users are getting killed by heavy stance. First off it makes sense that in a WEAK stance a STRONG stance will defeat your block. The point of a STRONG stance is STRENGTH!!

Why the heck would you use a SLOW AND EASILY BLOCKABLE stance? That would be more useless than the DFA is now.

There is suppossed to be a positive and a negative for each stance. The positive for Blue is a fast swing and the ability to be quick on your feet while swinging. The negative SHOULD be a all around WEAKNESS including you blocking. If not you could stand still and wait for a RED stance swing block and hit two-four times before he recovered, that would be far to easy.

By the way BLUE stance has new moves, faster speed, and a lethal one hit backstab (more nonsense). Yet you still think its being unfairly treated by the big bad RED stance. :(

If you get hit by a RED swing in BLUE you REALLY need to work on your movement. RED swings are SOOOO SLOW that you have to be caught in a mistake to get hit or mess up your timing to get hit. If YOU can't avoid a RED swing YOU SUCK and should go back to playing Super Mario Brothers with your little brother.

darth_maude
05-21-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by ArtifeX


Again, if you make the backstabs do the same amount of damage as a normal swing, then why do the damn backstab in the first place???



Hey Artifex,

I have a lot of respect for the research you have done here and in previous articles. I agree with a lot you have said here but I do disagree with the statement above.

I think the reason to do a backstab (even if it does the same damage as a normal swing) is that you have been caught in a bad position and it's a way to recover from it. It is an option but not the most powerful one.

I think we can both agree that when fighting it is preferable to be facing your opponent. Your proposed system of blocking demonstrates the spirit of this.

Therefore, if you find yourself with your back to your opponent, chances are that you have been outmaneuvered. Like being knocked down, you should be vulnerable and therefore the emphasis should be on recovering and not finishing the fight outright.

Also, maybe I'm missing something here (and please correct me if I'm wrong) but if person A approaches the back of person B and they both attack, person B is going to inflict more damage even though person B is more exposed (no saber in the way to block the blow). The exception would be if person A did a DFA but the set up time precludes taking advantage of the situation consistenly. This just seems off to me.

Sure, I would like to see normal swings become more effective but I feel that backstab should be seen as a way to recover from getting into a bad situation and not as a primary mode of attack.

And, yes, the above sounds very theoretical but I do play a lot and don't have a problem taking on people spamming the backstab. My main issue is that my immersion into the game is destroyed since watching people run backwards in fights hardly resembles saber fighting and the game has become less fun because of it.

Oh, and congratulations on your tourney wins. Are there any demos available?

-thefly-
05-21-2002, 05:09 PM
Originally posted by Sutek
I mean, the only REAL authority I would accept are a) a real life jedi, complete with REAL lightsaber (not the fake ones you can buy) or b) George Lucas coming in and telling what HE thought it should be.



a) Why don't you hop over to alt.grip.reality and look for a REAL Jedi.

b) You would want Lucas to tell us what should be in JKII? He doesn't even know what should be in a Star Wars movie anymore (ooh...snap) But maybe I'm being to harsh on ole Georgey...I mean JarJar was a good idea right?...right?

ArtifeX
05-21-2002, 05:37 PM
Originally posted by FatalStrike
Previous posting:
"A Light Stance defender can have his saber batted about like a windsock in a thunderstorm by someone using the Strong Stance. This means that all these people who say that they just block a swing then counterattack are relying on luck to determine whether or not they can counterattack after a block. Against a Strong Stance swing, there's a very high chance that your saber will be knocked away, makin a counter-attack impossible and opening you up to the second swing in a Strong combo.

You can also penetrate Light Defenses 100% at close range with Strong, and to a lesser degree, Medium."
____________________________________
Ok people I am sick of reading this nonsense about how poor light stance users are getting killed by heavy stance. First off it makes sense that in a WEAK stance a STRONG stance will defeat your block. The point of a STRONG stance is STRENGTH!!

Why the heck would you use a SLOW AND EASILY BLOCKABLE stance? That would be more useless than the DFA is now.

There is suppossed to be a positive and a negative for each stance. The positive for Blue is a fast swing and the ability to be quick on your feet while swinging. The negative SHOULD be a all around WEAKNESS including you blocking. If not you could stand still and wait for a RED stance swing block and hit two-four times before he recovered, that would be far to easy.

By the way BLUE stance has new moves, faster speed, and a lethal one hit backstab (more nonsense). Yet you still think its being unfairly treated by the big bad RED stance. :(

If you get hit by a RED swing in BLUE you REALLY need to work on your movement. RED swings are SOOOO SLOW that you have to be caught in a mistake to get hit or mess up your timing to get hit. If YOU can't avoid a RED swing YOU SUCK and should go back to playing Super Mario Brothers with your little brother.

ah, I was saying Light stance sucks--yes, but complaining--no.

I was simply trying to enlighten someone who thought Light stance was an effective style.

Azraelt
05-21-2002, 07:54 PM
In my experience, every saber style can be effective if the duelist has the proper skill. I've seen a light stance Jedi take on 3 heavy and 2 medium stance at once and win. No, he wasn't spamming it either, he had timed, precise strikes then put them into a combo. Light can be VERY effective. It's all about dodging. With the 1.03 patch, alot of things that changed though.... *sigh*

Ten Tigers
05-22-2002, 01:13 AM
Originally posted by Sutek
Actually, grip is one of the more effective and useful dark side powers. Most of the time you aren't going to be using it for the damage side since it renders your opponent helpless for a few seconds after you finish using it.

The fact that you can swing them around into floors and stuff, or point them up into the air and fling them miles with force push obviously limit the range and usefulness of this power :>

Vader only ever used this power at close range too, so you already have that, and they were mooks, not jedi that he was choking.



I disagree with you on everything except the recovery time, and the Jedi Cannon. And even then I think it's lame. Grip was designed to be a damaging choke attack. Now it's just another push/pull move. I would rather have a damage increase than recovery time. You already get this from pulling someone. And as for the Jedi Cannon. I like the innovation behind it, but the fact that it is one of the only two things that makes Grip useful is weak.

Smacking someone into walls an such does no damage whatsoever. So that in no way balance anything out.

I still say a range increase would be a good start. Because a number of times, Vader would use Grip on someone who was thousands of miles away. As long as he could see them, he could Grip them. Now Im not saying Grip should be Line Of Sight. But something a little outside of melee range would be nice. This wouldnt even affect any of the counters to Grip. Push/Pull have the greatest range of all the force powers. Absorb is irrelivant as it is a defensive power. You could be Gripped from accross the map and Absorb would still work. You can always counter Grip a Grip. And even a thrown Thermal Detonator would still reach a Jedi. Never underestimate a Stormtrooper rifle. They can kill you in seconds if your not deflecting with your lightsaber.

So basicly I am with ArtifeX's school of logic. Which is people will use what works. If only one or two things work, be prepared to see a WHOLE lot of people only using one or two things...

Im not kissing his ass or anything, I just belive he is right.

We would see a lot less Grip/Droppers if Grip itself were more effective. However Grip/Dropping is effective too so it would not disappear, just balance out the use of Grip.

Solo4114
05-22-2002, 04:44 AM
Originally posted by ArtifeX

Think what that would allow in team games. Your buddy holds the Absorber, you do a backsweep or DFA on the immobile and helpless opponent. There'd be no way to defend against that if it was done properly and swiftly.

True, but if they made the DFA and backstab not one-hit kills, this wouldn't be a problem. Plus, you still have the ability to push or throw your way out of the grip. Without having some sort of benefit to Grip, it becomes a useless power against lightside jedi. And as a lightside jedi, believe me, I know. If someone turns on grip, I just laugh and turn on absorb. If they're lucky, they may catch me and drop me before I turn it on or before it breaks the grip, but 9 out of 10 times, I can stop them from gripping me.


Absorb's initial use cost needs to remain the same, otherwise Drainers would be able to keep your force power drained with no chance of countering them. As it is now, if you can get out of line-of-sight for 2 or 3 seconds, you can cut Absorb back on long enough to defend against any follow-up force attacks.

Agreed. I think that the consumption rate after the initial activation should be a bit faster, though. Otherwise, grip becomes the all-purpose cleaner of sorts, making it impossible to beat a lightside jedi with force powers, if the lightsider has force mana left.


Let me once more dispell the myth of Light Stance as the best defensive stance. My research has shown that is has the worst defensive capabilities of all 3 stances, and is worse in 1.03 than it is in 1.02! A Light Stance defender can have his saber batted about like a windsock in a thunderstorm by someone using the Strong Stance. This means that all these people who say that they just block a swing then counterattack are relying on luck to determine whether or not they can counterattack after a block. Against a Strong Stance swing, there's a very high chance that your saber will be knocked away, makin a counter-attack impossible and opening you up to the second swing in a Strong combo.

You can also penetrate Light Defenses 100% at close range with Strong, and to a lesser degree, Medium.


I have to disagree with you on this. I realize that in a head-to-head fight with a strong stance user, a light stance user will probably get their sabre batted aside. But that's only if they're dumb enough to stand still and let the strong stance user smack them around. A sabre fight will not be a static affair. If you're using light stance for defense, you should be rolling, flipping, kicking, etc. Staying mobile, or letting them hit your defenses and backing up if and when they break through. I do pretty well with light stance usually, and can defend myself relatively easily. It doesn't block everything, nor should it. But it does do a hell of a lot more for blocking than it used to. Yes, strong stance can bash through the defenses, and it should be able to. But there's no reason you shouldn't get the hell out of Dodge if they do bash through your defenses. As such, light stance arguably gives you a crucial moment to RUN, whereas you'd be kibble had you not been defending yourself.

Light stance isn't useless, and it's not an uber stance. From what I can tell from my own play experience, it blocks the best of the three stances (or at least blocks the most consistently). While that doesn't mean that it's an impenetrable shield, it does mean that the stance can hold its own now and actually has a benefit to its cost. It's fast and good on defense, but weak on attack.

As far as the DFA/Backstab argument goes, I still stand by my position that there should be no one hit kills in this game. As you've said, people will use what works. IF there's an unblockable one-hit kill, reducing blocking, changing force powers, etc., will do nothing to stop people from spamming it. Why? Because they CAN. I agree with you, though, that DFA may have been a bit TOO nerfed. It should be strong and capable of dealing out siginificant damage, since it does leave you open and vulnerable for about 2 - 3 seconds or so (from what it seems -- I haven't timed it).

Ultimately, I just want the game to be balanced and fun. I think that blocking makes the game more fun, since it's less of a swing-fest, which was how 1.02 felt to me. That version felt like people would just run and swing then back away, because of the lack of blocking. With blocking added, you can actually charge a guy and stand toe to toe with him for a bit. It's more of a sabre fight and less of a jousting match. I could stand to see blocking toned down on FFA and CTF servers (but leave it as it is on duel servers), but I don't want things to go back to 1.02. That won't be a problem, though, since I HIGHLY doubt that Raven will release a "reversion" patch or something. That'd just be goofy, since 1.02 allows people to still play the old way if they want to.

This is one of the things that kind of puzzles me about people who piss and moan about the failures of 1.03 and how they long for the days of 1.02; how 1.02 was the best game EVER and 1.03 TOTALLY FUBARED it. If you don't like it so much, DON'T PLAY IT. Go back to 1.02. No one's stopping you, and there are plenty of servers out there playing 1.02.

Honestly, I think that a big part of the underlying hubub about 1.03 is the fact that Raven "chose" to change the style of play from one which "supported" people who liked 1.02 to one that "supports" the wishes of the "whiners" out there. At a deeper level, I think a big part of the resentment that some people have for Raven's decisions with 1.03 come from a "Mom always liked you best" frame of mind. It's as if they see that Raven "sided" with one side of the argument. Which, maybe they did, but then again, maybe they simply changed the game to how they wanted to play it. Anyway, this is an irrelevant tangent.

For the record, ArtifeX, the above two paragraphs aren't directed at you, just at the general public.

ArtifeX
05-22-2002, 10:34 AM
Well, all I can say is we'll continue to disagree about the usefulness of Light Style. I wish I could agree with you about its effectiveness. No, actually I wish I never had any grounds to disagree with you in the first place.

Feel free to stop by the new *ASC* challenge server to give me a taste of that Light Style. Hopefully you'll have better luck than Twins of Doom did last night. :)

Chewie Bakker
05-22-2002, 12:56 PM
Originally posted by Nathan Wind

Try and stay away from the theoretical please!!

I donít care what George Lucas wants, or what you think jedi SHOULD play like as far as keeping in theme with Star Wars. These issues must be abandoned with the conclusion of the initial planning phase.


Not once did I mention George Lucas in my posting, and as for keeping in theme with Star Wars, take a look on the box JK2 came in under "LucasArts Entertainment Company Presents." It's a Star Wars game. How can it not be based on the movies which started it all?


Originally posted by Nathan Wind

THE POINT of a visible absorb is for darkies to wait for it to go off to use their powers. IT was NOT meant to prevent dark powers from hurting lighties, but to discourage them from using it. (Even though now the opposite can be proven with .03). THERE CAN BE NO COUNTER FOR THIS!!


In response to this, I'm going to make another quote:

Star Wars: Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast (Game Manual, p44)

Force Absorb (Default: F10 Key)
When activated, this light side Force power will take damage from any enemy Force ability and turn that energy into Force power for you. This power does not translate physical attacks into Force power, but it will absorb attacks originating from an offensive Force power and replenish your Force Meter


Absorb is not an offensive Force power, it's a counter against offensive Force powers. One of it's main purposes is to ensure that Dark Jedi don't just try to spam lightning/grip/drain and actually engage in lightsaber combat.


Originally posted by Nathan Wind
There needs to be an instantaneous heavily damaging long distance dark force power to even come close to making up for this, i.e. force destruction.


That requires next to no Force to use? This sounds like a "I need a be-all, end-all Force power that destroys my enemy despite the ludicrous range between him/her and me." Talk about unbalanced...


Originally posted by Nathan Wind

These powers meant people had to get down and dirty. Light couldnít turn on absorb until it was proven necessary, and even then it had to remain off to keep the user's force pools high enough for other viable means of combat.


You've never seen how quickly Absorb drains the user of Force, have you? I assure you, lightsiders have to be careful when they activate Absorb, but when it was visible, Absorb was more than useless.


Originally posted by Nathan Wind

Dark siders SHOULD have waited until they could tell it was off to use their power, thatís the dark strategy. In an ffa with major action going on at once, a player couldnít be bothered to be stuck listening for what they think could be absorb turning on.


I agree. God forbid that a computer game should require concentration.


Originally posted by Nathan Wind

In order to balance it, NO force powers what so ever should be accessible to someone who has absorb on, including jump. This is the only draw back severe enough to balance the fact that an instantaneous power that counters all others is now invisible.

I do not believe in weakening some aspects (neutering them effectively) to balance a game out however. Rather empower the ones that do balance it out (in the grand scheme of things mind you)


NO Force powers, you say? Not even jump? You truly fear absorb, don't you? To be perfectly honest, it sounds like you didn't even TRY to listen for Absorb, or hone your lightsabering skills.


Originally posted by Nathan Wind

The 2 things I am most passionate about are the guns and the invisible absorb, and you hit them both. It is obvious that you are a light sided saberist and do not play at tournament level games.


That's funny, I NEVER mentioned guns. How interesting. And although I don't play at tournament level (I'm on a 56k), at least I can say that I READ peoples post. Proven by your comment about guns

e.g.

Originally posted by Nathan Wind

I donít know how "political corruption" can manifest itself as a playable force power.


Tell me, when did I mention political corruption? I said that "I read somewhere that in battle, the Jedi use the Force to increase their offensive and defensive capabilities while the Sith try to break the spirit of the Jedi. I wonder if this could be incorporated somehow into JK2..." and what I meant by that was that it might be interesting to have a Jedi Force power that boosts lightsaber abilities, and a DarkSide counter that somehow breaks a Jedi's connection to the Force. How to do this, I don't know, but if I presented my thoughts to the floor, someone with lateral thinking different to mine could read it and say "Hey! I know how they could make that work!" and another thread would be created, and the Forum would grow until it's finally able to take over the world as we know it.

Nathan, you said that people should do their homework before posting, yet you flame my ideas when I tried my hand at creativity and tried to apply legitimate Star Wars references to a game.

To be honest, even if I did have access to Broadband Internet like Cable or ADSL I'd be too busy working (I work for an ISP that supplies ADSL and Cable. How ironic!) and doing other important things to be playing JK2 Tournaments. In fact, responding to your post has taken quite too much of my little-spare time.

:yobi: (wulu@ihug.com.au)