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View Full Version : I think some people fail to realise..


Cobalt60
05-18-2002, 06:40 PM
.. that the development cycle for this game was only one year.
which means that Raven probably didn't have time to beta-test.


which means,
that it was probably part of the development plan FROM THE START..
to release the game , then watch the forums , and then CHANGE the game..
..based entirely on internet feedback.

((this way they would save a lot of time/money on beta-testing))





in fact (based solely on the incredibly short development cycle) I'd bet that the game was never really "play tested" much at all by Raven, before it went gold.

and I bet that we (the consumers who rushed out and bought the game on the first day) have all been used as 'beta-testers' in the development process.
((and I think this was probably part of Raven's jedi-business-plan FROM THE START))


but unfortunately, all the people who were SATISFIED with the original 1.02 release were not vocal enough in the first few weeks
((and the only people who gave any feedback were newbies))

((and look what happened as a result))





in the end, I think this game (and its patch) can stand proudly,
as a shining example of why developers should not cut corners on Beta-Testing. heh.

((beta testing is VERY important!!))
((Hoekstra wtf were you thinking?))
((your scheme was clever, but it backfired dude))

w1ggl3s
05-18-2002, 07:11 PM
I agree 100%

Secondly Beta-Test your EFFin patch before ya just hammer it out like its gods gift to jk2

If your gonna patch this game do it right dont cut corners on your customers

PurplWulf
05-18-2002, 07:14 PM
yes, what were you thinking????? how dare you put a gun to our heads and force us to buy this game. And how dare you make us play online against other people. I can never forgive you forcing me to spend my money on a game that you made that I love, and can enjoy. You must have been blind when you made a patch that fixed most of the complaints people were screaming about on these forums. And then you gave it to us free.....wtf??? Don't you know that if you're going to patch or change the game you should at least charge us for it, so this way our gripes and complaints have more validity??????

You probably think you're so smart for making a game that got raves, and drew in millions of players and hundreds/thousands of servers. I'll bet you even think you did a good job on the patch for the most part...but we're here to tell you, that regardless of the fact that all the polls show that the majority of people like/prefer the patch and it's changes, that you are dead wrong. I don't know how you sleep at night.


:rolleyes:

the purple one

Cobalt60
05-18-2002, 07:33 PM
Purple,
the people who purchased the game within the first week (or sooner, due to pre-orders) did not have a playable demo.

therefore, I don't think it is accurate for you to imply that anyone who purchased the game within the first few weeks (during the supposed 'beta period') did so solely on the game's merits, or due to the efforts of Raven Software in general.

90% of the initial sales were due to a love of the StarWars franchise
and/or a love of the JediKnight game franchise.




but regardless, you seem to have missed my point.




to be clear :
I am NOT trying to add my voice to the classic "1.02 vs 1.03" debate
(a debate which I am already quite weary of , as most people are by now)

my point was simply:
"what were you thinking : relying on anonymous 12 year olds to beta-test this fine product?"

(because the result, as demonstrated by our Purple friend here, has been dissent within the community)
(and a whole lot of sarcasm)

Kyth'emos
05-18-2002, 07:48 PM
I am amazed that that thought never occured to me, it all seems so clear now.

PurplWulf
05-18-2002, 07:57 PM
oh I can definately agree about being tired of the patch debate

I can also agree that when the game was released there was alot of unecassary whining from people on these forums.

I doubt that alot of the dissent on these forums is any fault of Raven's however. In any game there will always be a division among it's players.....those who enjoy the style of play offered by the game, and those who don't.

there's also a huge amount of animosity carried over from other games as well. people from CS who hate bunnyhopping to state one example.

I've read both sides of the arguments here on the forums, and there's been alot of valid points made on both sides...which tells me that some people are capable of making themselves clear and concise, and stating why they like/dislike something in the game. But to attack Raven and accuse them of ruining the game for everyone, or implying that they did things to save money, and calling it devious or underhanded is a completely different story.

I seriously doubt that anyone beleives these companies exist solely for the purpose of making everyone who likes star wars, blissfully happy with their games. If they can do that, great... but they exist to make money, it's a job and a living

mainly what I see these days is a lack of patience... when the game first came out, I loved the SP and the saber moves that it offered, and the style of fighting. when I joined an MP server, 9 times out of 10 all I saw was heavy stance spamming and very little regard for the enjoyment of the games for other people. Since the patch came out, I play a little more, but I still think there are things that need fixing, and I won't be a regular on the servers until something changes....whether it be a mod, or a patch from Raven, or whatever...

IOW: I'll bide my time until things are changed, and if they aren't, I'll be content to only play online when I know that the other players enjoy the same type of play I do, so I can play the game like it was meant to be played.......with fun.

you can always run around pointing fingers and assigning blame to the big bad corporation that made the game, but that's pretty pointless IMHO... instead, I'd suggest seeing the problem for what it is...the inability to please everyone who post here and who play the game.

Plenty of games have been released without beta testing, is it a good idea?........maybe, maybe not... but it's certainly not mandatory, and it doesn't guarantee that these same problems wouldn't exist, even after extensive beta testing.

the purple one

Agen
05-18-2002, 08:31 PM
Most of the Development of the game was all down to lucasarts, Raven only did what they were told. I still tihkn thta Jk2 was probably rushed a bit to be out before AotC.

JK2's patch was riddled with ideas of newbies who posted their firsti mpressions of the game and posted what they dsidn't liek becuase they couldn't get kills without spending osmetime. DFA is now obsolete msotly which is fine. They screwed up a few things that they didn't need to.
Lots of whiners expect things that can enver be done in a game for about another 10 years.

Daank
05-18-2002, 08:49 PM
I don't know that the forums are a good way to get info on what needs patching, if "watch the forums" is what they really do that is scary. And the thought "HAS THIS GAME EVER BEEN PLAYED BY IT'S DEVELOPERS?!?!?!" has crossed my mind hundreds of times while in games, but I would hope that isn't true.

And, I have said this before: "If Raven wants to take on a contract for a game that has such a strong fanbase (fanbase with knowledge of the media) they should take the responsibility of being th eonly ones making a jedi game and try and make it like we all know a jedi saber duel should be."

I mean, I know it will never be perfect, and I know that they will never please everyone, but they should at least give us die hard star wars fans a gamestyle/mod (or modding ability) that plays/feels like star wars.

Agen
05-18-2002, 08:54 PM
You make this game sound bad

Cobalt60
05-18-2002, 09:30 PM
Originally posted by PurplWulf
Plenty of games have been released without beta testing, is it a good idea?........maybe, maybe not... but it's certainly not mandatory, and it doesn't guarantee that these same problems wouldn't exist, even after extensive beta testing.

the purple one


this is a good point.
but in this particular case,
I think a longer beta-test period would have been beneficial.
(and I think its a shame that Raven had no time in their development cycle to spend on this)



who's FAULT is it ?
I dunno man .. I'm not really trying to assign blame in this case
(as you would suggest that I am)

I'm just saying that , in retrospect , it probably wasn't a very good idea to rely on these forums as a means of replacing the traditional "beta-test"
(and I suspect that this is what happened)

and in the end , it probably wasn't such a good idea to change the gameplay so drastically, based on the opinions of so few people
(hence the rhetoric : "wtf were you thinking?")






anyways please don't read too much into my posts, Purple
you seem to be defensive of those who would look at the patch and say "this sucks" without rhyme or reason, and I can understand that.

but if anything, I think I am providing Raven with an excuse for the controversy,
in the fact that they simply didn't have time to make these changes beforehand.

it would seem to me , that they had no time for beta-testing.
they were given an impossibly short development cycle in which to work.
(one year is unheard of in game development;
most games take at least two years or more)

WarteX
05-18-2002, 11:00 PM
Actually the development cycle was 2 years.....

waxdart
05-18-2002, 11:37 PM
Originally posted by Cobalt60
.. that the development cycle for this game was only one year.
which means that Raven probably didn't have time to beta-test.


which means,
that it was probably part of the development plan FROM THE START..

Key word is 'probably,' on which all of the statements following logically rely.

That's a large assumption, and one that's vaguely inflammatory without factual substantiation.

What you might fail to realize is that the developers have stated on a couple of occasions that their time schedule was unusually short because of:

A) Good project planning, and

B) Using a well-established engine with which their developers were quite familiar.

I'm too lazy, unfortunately, to go digging through the old archives for those interviews, but they're certainly out there. Unless we hear from the Raven folks personally, speculating about their production schedules is really just blue sky writing.

m64253
05-18-2002, 11:50 PM
Sounds likely

Hawk3y3Pierce
05-20-2002, 05:48 AM
Raven also made EliteForce for Star Trek. These 2 games are VERY VERY simular, so much that even before the jk2tools were released that mappers were mapping with efradiant and it worked. There are SO many likenesses that I would believe that they only modified EF to suit the needs of JK2. It is simple, Lucas Arts provided the textures and sound bytes from Jedi Knight, Raven compiled them into EF, they waited until there was enough hype about Episode 2 to release it, and then "fix" it due to the complaints on the forums.

'nuff

Xombie
05-20-2002, 01:15 PM
Cobalt60, I have a few questions...
Do you work at LucasArts or Raven?
Did you ever visit either studio?
Did you ever visit either studio during the development of JKII?
Are you a game developer?

Master Rooster
05-20-2002, 05:07 PM
AARGH! ITS A CONSPIRACY!

TexRoadkill
05-20-2002, 05:18 PM
What game are you playing?

I have a P3 750 and this game runs better than any new game I have tried. In two weeks it has not crashed ONCE!!!!!! I cant say that about any of the latest games to come out.

This also happens to be one of the most fun games I have played in a long time. I am 30yrs old and have been playing games since Pong so I have some frame of reference here.

You may not agreee with the game balance but to say this game is of low quality or was rushed before being finished is absolutely ridiculous. All you game publisher conspiracy theorists need to stick to watching X-files reruns.