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Vicious
05-23-2002, 12:43 AM
I'm opposed to the idea you have to choose one exteme when it comes to the force. light and dark, and nothing in between? that sounds rather christian to me, which is a bad thing (says disolusioned catholic).

There has to be a way to find the middle ground with the force, the powers without the constrictive morality of the light or the selfishness of the total dark.
basically the ability to kick ass with extreme prejudice but still be nice to the innocent and noble.
perhaps im just thinking of some kind of rogue jedi, not attached to any doctrin.

to sum it up, gray jedi: will this be supported in the game? :wedge:

PS: nobody go on about the dark path and whatnot, some people are strong enough to go thier own way.

Gaalgoth
05-23-2002, 12:57 AM
Well considering the whole of star wars is very christian when you get to it's roots, it's supposed to be without a middle ground. sorry if you're a disillusioned catholic, I personnaly despise catholocism, but it's still very biblical. Kyle Katarn is kinda like that in JK2, but for the most part there isn't much of a middle ground. It would be extremely hard to use dark power and not fall....remember, you can't use pure evil for pure good. two wrongs don't make a right and all that jazz.

gavor
05-23-2002, 02:03 AM
I think it's fairly clear from the movies that there's a good side(does anyone ever say Light side in the movies??:confused:) and a Dark side. Light jedi can give into the wrong things and become power hungry etc then become a Dark jedi. Thats it, there's no middle ground.

We'll see this in Ep3 I believe. Anakin will let his arrogance and possessiveness get the better of him and the temptation to wield power to get what he wants will overcome him. Dark side is quicker, easier, more seductive. Not more powerful though.

It's an interesting question, this middle ground thing. But the definative answer is no.

Rommel
05-23-2002, 05:57 AM
Gotta agree, besides what did they say, the path of the jedi will not be easy.

I wonder if there will be a penalty for light or dark if they start "going grey" so to speak. That is if they start intermingling things.

Of course it'd also make sense that a jedi could do this but the most powerful masters of the force will be pure good or dark.

Rommel

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Vicious
05-23-2002, 06:28 AM
You all seem rather polerized on the subject.
go look at the website for the church of satan or something. Not advocating satanism but it challenges the whole good and evil paradigm.
It's all perception.
As for the game, the more choice the better. I will choose my own path and it will be as deviant as possible.

Saiyan22
05-23-2002, 08:42 AM
if you start dabbling in the dark side, you either get consumed by it, or you are able to break free. there is no gray side, consider the transition from jedi to dark side "gray" if you want, but it's a temporary state.

RoyalGuard
05-23-2002, 11:29 AM
beware the dark side...

cliched but true... while we have witnessed several of the younger Jedi in the films have a moment of weakness (Obi looked angry at the end of TPM, luke used grip and then later raged in ROTJ) no experienced Jedi in the films has resorted to the dark side because no-one can use it and not be at first tainted and then ultimately consumed by it. (Hopefully clearer evidence will appear in episode 3).

By all means try and tread the middle road but when you finally give into temptation, don't say you weren't warned....

Koffin
05-23-2002, 12:47 PM
Originally posted by RoyalGuard
beware the dark side...

cliched but true... while we have witnessed several of the younger Jedi in the films have a moment of weakness (Obi looked angry at the end of TPM, luke used grip and then later raged in ROTJ) no experienced Jedi in the films has resorted to the dark side because no-one can use it and not be at first tainted and then ultimately consumed by it. (Hopefully clearer evidence will appear in episode 3).

By all means try and tread the middle road but when you finally give into temptation, don't say you weren't warned....

I dont know....even the great Yoda looked a littled grumpy and P%ssed toward the end of AOTC. In fact, he looked really p%ssed. lol

DudEhead
05-23-2002, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by RoyalGuard
beware the dark side...

cliched but true... while we have witnessed several of the younger Jedi in the films have a moment of weakness (Obi looked angry at the end of TPM, luke used grip and then later raged in ROTJ) no experienced Jedi in the films has resorted to the dark side because no-one can use it and not be at first tainted and then ultimately consumed by it. (Hopefully clearer evidence will appear in episode 3).

By all means try and tread the middle road but when you finally give into temptation, don't say you weren't warned....

pfff... Luke becomes a dark jedi and returns, his father too (and then he died :p) I think it's possible to stray and return... but it takes alot of will... i guess they will translate that in the game by making u loose experience or something when u return to the light side or something

gavor
05-23-2002, 10:45 PM
When did Luke become a dark jedi?

If you're about to say 'in the comics, Uncle Gavor!' then I beg to differ. The comics aren't accepted Star Wars resource material. Well, not to me. I'm a purist. :)

Luke was alwas good and only at the end of ROTJ did he flirt with anger and revenge. He proved stronger than his father and that was that. He remained good.

Zendjir
05-24-2002, 05:23 AM
The comics are checked by lucas(-arts/ film/ -whatever) to see if they do follow continuity for the larger part. Comics are a large part of the EU of STAR WARS, and they provide big amounts of info. Did you know the the people from SWG look to the comics for info about planets. creatures, and all that? Star wars would not be the same without the EU.

So the comics are accepted star wars recource material :)

Well...not to you I guess...

Because you are a purist :D

RoyalGuard
05-24-2002, 06:54 AM
SW Canon - A little FYI of what seems to be the general consensus on canon:

The films: Primary canon, set in stone, what you see on screen is irrefutable.

The books: EU canon, not accepted by some SW fans as canon, but to everyone else as irrefutable as the films except where they are contradicted by the films (i.e. Ep2 origin of the Death Star)

The Graphic Novels: EU canon, except where contradicted by the films/books

Games (including Computer, Role Playing and Collectible Card games) EU canon, except where contradicted by films/books/graphic novels...


pfff... Luke becomes a dark jedi and returns

only because Leia managed to do for him what he did for Vader, which makes me think that maybe it's only a Skywalker thing to be dark and still have some good in you...

but then there are other examples of redeemed Jedi in SW history, but they all either turned from the force completely or became 'lighter than light' to avoid the temptation in the future, so again there is no middle road once you past a certain point - you can't sit on the fence for ever :)

Jan Gaarni
05-24-2002, 03:08 PM
(i.e. Ep2 origin of the Death Star)
That isn't exactly a BIG contradiction. It doesn't even have to be a contradiction - in the way we think of contradictions concerning SW - at all. ;)

It just proves that the Empire (or the Emperor) has been lying about who developed the Death Star (BIIIG shocker there lol :p ). Bevel Lemelisk can still be 'real' in SW. :)

DudEhead
05-24-2002, 06:12 PM
Err besides Europian Union, what does EU mean? :fett: btw... we should ask the developpers if straying will be possible without loosing all

Talain
05-24-2002, 06:32 PM
Expanded Universe, the name for the books, comics, and such.

The only people considered pretty much absolute canon are Timothy Zahn, Michael Stackpole and R.A. Salvatore, with the rest being about on par with the comics.

DudEhead
05-24-2002, 06:56 PM
anyways... Luke is a badass :fett: and fett lives on to hunt another fifteen years, ending with the bounty of all bounties :fett:

RoyalGuard
05-24-2002, 07:55 PM
It doesn't even have to be a contradiction - in the way we think of contradictions concerning SW - at all.

True, it doesn't have to be a contradiction at all (the original plans could be damaged or destroyed and Lemelisk could finish them), but it probably will be, after all Lucas isn't worried about EU tie-ins. After all Palpatine wouldn't execute Lemelisk twice for something he didn't do! The man was evil, not capricious or frivolous.

Vicious
05-24-2002, 09:18 PM
this thread has gotten rather off topic.

Ascari
05-25-2002, 08:04 AM
Originally posted by Vicious
this thread has gotten rather off topic.



They usually do ;)

Absath
05-25-2002, 07:46 PM
My cat's breath smells like cat food

DudEhead
05-25-2002, 07:50 PM
my food smells like catbreath...

Zendjir
05-26-2002, 05:28 PM
My breath smells like catfood...

Uhhmmm...:D

Jan Gaarni
05-26-2002, 05:43 PM
Hehe, no arguing there, Zendjir. :D

DudEhead
05-26-2002, 07:16 PM
My cat smells like foodbreath..... hmmm... food that breaths... prolly overdue i think :fett:

gavor
05-27-2002, 02:44 AM
Looks like i missed the debate i started.

According to GL himself, Boba Fett died when he fell into the sarlaac. End of story.

He's also said the EU stuff is interesting but that it's considered to be in a parallel universe, not the one he works from. Some people may consider EU material to be canon, but it's not. None of it is. No books, no comics, no graphic thingys and no games. It's been said lots of times, the only things considered canon are the movies.

End of story. I can find links to him saying this if thats what you want.

I'm not saying you can't imagine it's what happens, just that you can't use references from books/comics etc to answer real SW questions.

DudEhead
05-27-2002, 03:54 PM
books were first, films should be EU... books are often better anyway... and i want Boba to live, so I'll kick everyone's ass who says he's dead :fett: btw, in the movies, boba looks like a sissy, not like the dangerous bounty hunter that he is...

Jan Gaarni
05-27-2002, 07:16 PM
books were first, films should be EU...
Although I enjoy EU and seek to them when questions arise that are not answered in the films - cause let's face it, it's the only thruth we have then :D - there are only one thing that goes above that:
The Movies! (refering to some contradiction issues that has arisen due to these new movie editions)

Nothing else is above that, not even the novelization of the films.

However:
I'm not saying you can't imagine it's what happens, just that you can't use references from books/comics etc to answer real SW questions.
You can, Gavor, you just can't use them if the movies clearly states something else.

Lucas is not gonna sitt there and explain every little question about the Star Wars Universe - which by the way wouldn't be this big had it not been for the EU, not even just concerning movie related stuff - that arise. You explain one thing, and another or more questions arise.

Lucas is interested in one thing:
To tell the story of the Skywalker family - Anakin and his kids.
That is all.

So that leaves a whole galaxy to create stories about, not to mention over 25.000 years of history behind it. And since they are never gonna get filmed by GL, they are just as true.

It's up to each and one of us to decide what is the true Star Wars Univers, and for many, EU is part of that Univers.
Movies STILL comes first though.
Remember that and Star Wars can be a much larger place then if you just believe in the movies.

;)

gavor
05-28-2002, 01:20 AM
I like some of the EU stuff(like reference books that flesh out the universe and give background to details in the movies) but I don't like the books and comics. They're someone elses take on what happens. Thats just me though! :)

I know for other people the EU material is important and enhances their appreciation of SW. I think theres too much of it and some things, like Luke becoming evil and the emperor returning, cheapen the whole SW experience. For me.

Giving it a little more thought I'd say I dont like the material that continues the story of the main characters past ROTJ. Unrelated stories, games and whatnot using different characters don't fuss me.

Wraith 8
05-28-2002, 10:10 AM
uhmm the name Coruscant is from the EU... and george took it over...

bothan... wel it is for the game.. but it got described in the EU.

so not all EU is not used material... a lot is..

General Theros
05-28-2002, 03:00 PM
The planet Coruscant may have first been mentioned publically in an EU book, but who is to say that Lucas didn't already have the name and idea of the Imperial Center already picked out but just didn't use it in the origional?? You know how many things changed from teh origional script! :)

Also, Bothans were mentioned in ROTJ, so the name isn't made up! As to what they look like, well, those kinds of things are always left up to interpretation! :)

Theros

DudEhead
05-28-2002, 03:53 PM
i just love to deepen myself in the eu experience, so much more than just the movies, and especially, in the films Boba Fett is a weakling, in the books he is God :)

gavor
05-28-2002, 10:10 PM
In the movies he's dead.

Wraith 8
05-29-2002, 11:50 AM
Originally posted by General Theros
The planet Coruscant may have first been mentioned publically in an EU book, but who is to say that Lucas didn't already have the name and idea of the Imperial Center already picked out but just didn't use it in the origional?? You know how many things changed from teh origional script! :)

Also, Bothans were mentioned in ROTJ, so the name isn't made up! As to what they look like, well, those kinds of things are always left up to interpretation! :)

Theros uhm george HAD a different name for coruscant.... but he choose for the book name.. ill ask Redwing what that name was..