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Bluezman
05-27-2002, 05:56 PM
In the conversation between Obi Wan, Mace Windu and Obi Wan, Obi Wan says about Anakin: "His abilities have made him... well...arrogant". On this, Yoda replies something like: "Ah yes. A very common flaw this has become lately among the Jedi, even among the older, more experienced ones!".

I cannot help thinking that there is some deeper meaning behind this sentence. Like he is hinting at someone. Maybe, this was meant for Mace Windu or for Obi Wan, like "...is it not, Obi Wan? Like I told you the other day, YOU are being arrogant as well! *wink*" or maybe that was meant for Windu: "...didn't I tell you, just like XY, he is being arrogant as well". Or is he aiming at Count Dooku? ...

Does anyone know, what he could be thinking of?

"Dangerous and disturbing, this puzzle is. Meditate on it, I will"

Boba Rhett
05-27-2002, 06:06 PM
I thought it was pretty clear that it was ment for Obi-wan. :)

Jaster21801
05-27-2002, 07:44 PM
yep, he's referring to Obi-Wan... and also foreshadowing Luke... Remember, "What know you of ready?"... "So was I, if you remember". Yoda and Ben make comparisons of Ben to Luke, much like Obi Wan is like young Anakin

Bluezman
05-28-2002, 07:16 AM
Hmmm. I know that Obi Wan was much like young Anakin or better like Luke when he started his training. In Episode 2 I find Obi Wan being very humble like he really learned his lesson.

Yoda's comment sounds more like "A lot of the older Jedi are being arrogant lately" as in "have been humble but lately developed a more arrogant behaviour". Obi Wan to me seemed to develop into the opposite direction, going from arrogant to more humble and calm.

Does tha make sense to anyone?

Jaster21801
05-28-2002, 01:16 PM
Yeah, makes sense to me... But Obi-Wan still acts a lil arrogant towards Anakin to put him in his place.

e.g. "Don't worry, I can sense everything going on in that room. Trust me."
"It's too risky... Besides, your senses aren't that attuned my young apprentice."
"And yours are?"
"Possibly"

Granted this isn't true arrogance, but it is semi-arrogant... And I dunno.. I kinda did get the impression that due to pride Obi-Wan might have been holding Anakin back a lil... I know that it was with reason, but I think Obi-Wan may have added a lil too much to Anakin's hatred.

ivaj
05-28-2002, 01:19 PM
well anikan's ego gets in the way.

Bluezman
05-28-2002, 01:33 PM
Jaster: You're right.
Although I hadn't thought that Obi Wan's "semi-arrogance" went to an extent that Yoda notices it (since he is not present in the most situations when it occurs). So probably Yoda knows/sees more than we think, eh?

On the other hand: if Yoda sees so much, why didn't he take better precautions about Anakin falling for the dark side? In Ep2 I sometimes thought damn, don't you see what's happening here? Just lock stupid Anakin away ;) or counsel him or whatever.

But then, "the dark side clouds everything" and Yodas vision is dimmed so maybe thats why he doesn't see. And they are so much focused on him "bringing balance to the force" that they maybe give him more credit than is good for him. And since Obi Wan's arrogance has nothing to do with the dark side, this is clearly visible to Yoda.

Ah well, so it all makes sense.... or does it? :confused:

ivaj
05-28-2002, 01:43 PM
well it could be that yoda sees the good in him.

MotionMan
05-28-2002, 02:04 PM
Maybe yoda knows he will eventually go to the dark side non the less, But in the end he will bring balance(killing darth sidious).
So he is just letting him be. Letting fate take its course.

Jaster21801
05-28-2002, 03:41 PM
Yoda calls the future both impossible and difficult to determine. I don't think he realizes Anakin's dark tendencies in the future as he is still being trained in the light side ways during Ep I-II. And Probably Ep III too for a lil bit. But I dunno... Yoda probably sees the end result as a balance in the Force and sees Anakin's headstrong nature and feels that if the Force wants it this way, then the Force knows what it's doing... But thatz just my opinion..

Keiran Halcyon
05-28-2002, 03:49 PM
I don't fing arrogance in Obi-Wan. And come on! Anakin is always humiliating him! that 'possibly' about their powers is only tp put things in his site. And it could be arrogance if he had said 'of course, definately or sure' or similar words.

I think Yoda is refering to Doooku and the lost 20
Maybe yoda is refering to qui-Gon, but i think he as only stubborn.

RF_Gandalf
05-28-2002, 07:07 PM
Don't you think that Yoda was referring to Obi-Wan's master Qui-Gon (and to Obi-Wan himself) since these two Jedi thought they knew better than Yoda and the council with regards to training Anikin?

Ferox
05-28-2002, 07:42 PM
i didnt see obi wan's attitude towards anikin as arrogant at all.

i think its like a parent whos trying to stop their kid( who is watching mtv and wants to be a thug) from doing stupid things because they know the kid can get burned. but the kid does it anyways.


obi wan is trying to teach him the way of the jedi and all ani wants is power.

even in the older ones hes like " you dont know the power of the dark side"

ivaj
05-28-2002, 08:06 PM
Originally posted by Ferox
obi wan is trying to teach him the way of the jedi and all ani wants is power.
he also thinks that obiwan is jealous of his great power.

Jaster21801
05-29-2002, 12:03 AM
The thing about Obi-Wan is that throughout the movie, when Anakin screws up, Obi-Wan's like "I knew it". This (to me at least) gives him an enormously arrogant attitude. Though he is humble to the superior members of the council, he still seems arrogant towards Anakin. Not that that's a problem. But Yoda DOES address arrogance, and Obi-Wan has shown it at least a couple of times.

"I am ready to take on the council's challenges"
"What know you of ready?" (I may have misquoted this one)

and the scene where he's asking to train Anakin. Says he's ready and WILL train Anakin with or without the approval of the council.

ivaj
05-29-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Jaster21801
The thing about Obi-Wan is that throughout the movie, when Anakin screws up, Obi-Wan's like "I knew it". [B]
Very good point, I do remember this.

Originally posted by Jaster21801
[B]and the scene where he's asking to train Anakin. Says he's ready and WILL train Anakin with or without the approval of the council.
Thats because he made a promise to QGJ.

saltank
05-29-2002, 01:03 AM
Anyone remember that speech that Palpatine had a speech with anakin at hte start of the movie?
anakin said something like "it would not have been without yourguidance your exellency"

maybe palpatine was secretly training anakin??

Bluezman
05-29-2002, 12:45 PM
"I am ready to take on the council's challenges"
"What know you of ready?" (I may have misquoted this one)
uuhhh.... wasn't this dialogue between Luke and Yoda? I think this scene is when Luke wants be trained by Yoda. It continues with Yoda saying like "600 years Jedi trained I have and decide who is ready I will" or something... hmm...
maybe palpatine was secretly training anakin?? I disagree. I am reading the (official) book from the movie at the moment and it didn't say anything like that in there. It describes pretty detailed Anakin's thoughts about Palpatine during this conversations and it would contradict your thesis.

Also it would be impossible for Palpatine to do so, the Jedi would realise it, at least Obi Wan who always wants to know where Anakin is, so he could never spend the required time secretly with Palpatine.

Plus: Anakin at that point wouldn't really accept dark side training. Palpatine would have to reveal himself before Anakin and he would never risk this at that time. If Anakin told the Jedi council even that he is a Force user, they would know that he is non-jedi, i.e. dark jedi, probably Sith. Palpatine could never risk that.

Obi-Wan is not really being arrogant. I would call it "semi-arrogant". He is the Master and Anakin is the Padawan. And he lets him feel it over and over again, also by saying "my young Padawan", "my young apprentice", "young man", even "my VERY young Padawan".

He is just being not very sensible towards Anakin's wish to succeed faster. Instead of addressing this issue ("Look, Anakin, this may seem like I am slowing you down but you have to understand yada yada yada)" he always disses him like "you know where your place is!" Which is true, just no very sensible way to break it to Anakin.

Well, it somewhat gotta be this way, since Anakin is going to challenge Obi Wan for a duel because he thinks he is better than him.

Keiran Halcyon
05-29-2002, 01:55 PM
Originally posted by Jaster21801
The thing about Obi-Wan is that throughout the movie, when Anakin screws up, Obi-Wan's like "I knew it". This (to me at least) gives him an enormously arrogant attitude. Though he is humble to the superior members of the council, he still seems arrogant towards Anakin. Not that that's a problem. But Yoda DOES address arrogance, and Obi-Wan has shown it at least a couple of times.

"I am ready to take on the council's challenges"
"What know you of ready?" (I may have misquoted this one)

and the scene where he's asking to train Anakin. Says he's ready and WILL train Anakin with or without the approval of the council.

I still don't find Obi-Wan arrogant.

And about that scenes in TPM, in the first he only said he was ready because he wanted to support his master and in the second, (as Yoda pointed out) it was Stubborness, and he promised it to qui-gon

Jaster21801
05-29-2002, 03:38 PM
Whatever... This is merely my opinion and take on Obi-Wan's attitude. But that's how I viewed him in the film. Others apparently think otherwise and I'm not gonna try an press my opinion on anyone.

dendol
05-30-2002, 02:19 AM
do you think obi-wan is arrogant in the scene where padme and anakin get captured and taken out into the arena? obi-wan is already tied to the post and as the pair goes past him anakin says he's there to rescue him and obi-wan says "good job" or "well done" or something like that...

ive only seen the movie once so i cant really remember if it was just a good-hearted (although sarcastic) comment or if obi-wan had a more serious look about him when he said it..

Jaster21801
05-30-2002, 02:47 PM
If I remember correctly, Obi Wan has the "I knew it" look on his face... Cuz before he had said "I hope Anakin doesn't try anything foolish". So in my opinion, it's a lil streak of arrogance...

Avernus
05-31-2002, 05:40 AM
Yoda wasn't refering to Obiwan specifically, he was talking about the jedi in general.
Think about the setting, it's obvious from the movies that the Old Republic is in a state of decay. There has been a thousand years of peace and the republic is starting to strain under it's own weight and age. The Jedi as an institution of the republic are just as old and they are decaying as well.

In order for the galaxy to be strong and vibrant again, the Old Republic(including the Jedi) must be swept away. Palpatine and Anakin are the means to that end. Then finally Anakin redeams himself by killing the Emperor, clearing the way for a new Republic with Luke as the seed for a new generation of Jedi.

Seem reasonable?