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View Full Version : Is it just me, or are the Jedi arrogant lying cowards?


Homosexual Ewok
05-28-2002, 12:01 AM
First let me say, I am talking Movies only, no EU stuff.

1-They flat out lie to the innocent so they will do their bidding.
Say all you want about Obi-Wan's "certain point of view" line in ANH, but the bottom line is he deceived Luke into thinking his father was dead for the sole purpose of using Luke to kill Vader/Anakin.
If Obi-Wan would have said, "Yeah Luke, your dad went to the dark side. Here is his saber, I need you to come with me and chop him in half" do you think Luke would of done just that?
Of course not, he would have tried to turn his father.

2-When I stated kill Vader/Anakin, I meant kill. Yoda's "You must confront Vader" line in ROTJ? What do you think we meant by confront?
How about a little honesty.
"You must chop your father in half, then, only then, a Jedi will you be".

2-Qui-Gon's "We didn't come here to free slaves" line.
I really loved that one.
How hard, I mean really, would it of been for him to say to Watto: "Look, you have no right to keep these living beings against their will and use them as beasts of burden"?
I mean its friggen Watto! Not the Emperor, friggen Watto!

3-Obi-Wan's "pathetic life-form" line in TPM.
Classic.

After these 5 films, the only Jedi that seems to have any sense of nobility, any concept of friendship is Luke.
His friends were in trouble in ESB, he goes after them without a second thought.
They are in trouble in ROTJ; he walks right into Jabba's palace to get them.
In ROTJ, he goes right up to Vader and gives himself over to the Emperor, knowing full well he will die on the Death Star when the Rebels attack. Does he care? Nope, all he wants to do is bring his father back to the light side and protect his sister.

Personally I am looking forward to seeing Anakin take a saber to these arrogant double-speaking geezers.

SPY_jmr1
05-28-2002, 12:12 AM
its just you:D


















sorry... i just could'nt resist :D

Pedantic
05-28-2002, 12:40 AM
^Wow, another inspiring post by SPY_jmr1.

Darth Black1ce
05-28-2002, 12:48 AM
oh dear, im a 'sith" but, still, thats weak

Homosexual Ewok
05-28-2002, 12:58 AM
I still say they are arrogant.
In these last couple of movies, it seems if a slaver was beating a slave, a crowd of peasants would run in and help while the Jedi went into some "It's not our job, we are...blah, blah..." speech.

One thing though, after the last movie, Vader seems like less of an "evil" Jedi, and more like a "the means justify the ends" Jedi.

Palpatine is still creepy "scary German guy" evil though. :lightning

SPY_jmr1
05-28-2002, 12:59 AM
^Wow, another inspiring post by SPY_jmr1.

hmm your humor-meter is out again? hmm? cant you understand a joke between 2 jokers?;):rolleyes::cool:

oh dear, im a 'sith" but, still, thats weak


i must be missing somthing, but maybe your post is worded funny. dont understand what you are going for here?:confused:

Pedantic
05-28-2002, 01:02 AM
Originally posted by SPY_jmr1


hmm your humor-meter is out again? hmm? cant you understand a joke between 2 jokers?;):rolleyes::cool:

Oh, yes, haha, how amazingly funny. :rolleyes:

SPY_jmr1
05-28-2002, 01:04 AM
Originally posted by Pedantic


Oh, yes, haha, how amazingly funny. :rolleyes:

yep... its broke... better call a repairman:rolleyes:

Vagabond
05-28-2002, 01:06 AM
Actually, Homosexual Ewok is on to something. I was thinking this very thing the other day.

* * * AOTC SPOILERS * * *
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When Yoda and Mace Windu have their little pow-wow about not being able to detect the darksider that erased all records of the planet Kamino from the jedi archives. And how they conspired to keep their "blindness" from the Republic. Whether through their own arrogance or ignorance, the Jedi Council was betraying the trust of those they had sworn to protect. Although it's merely speculation, I can't help but wonder if this deceit plays into the Jedi Purge that shall unfold in Episode III.

Nice point about Luke being unselfish in his willingness to help his friends. Also remember that young Anakin likewise selflessly offered to help Qui-Gonn et al by entering in the Boonta Eve podrace. Like father like son?

Pedantic
05-28-2002, 01:10 AM
Anakin was only nice for a little while, namely, when he was a little kid. Damn puberty. ;) :D

iguelmay
05-28-2002, 01:55 AM
YES!a place where my star wars 'nerdism' won't go to waste!

Anyway, this is the impression i get of the Jedi...
They're basically keepers of the peace that have built up this image of themselves and are afraid to admit when they can't do something. They don't want the public to loose faith in them (who can blame em). If anyone watches some anime... they're sort of like UN Spacey in Macross II.

So thats why the Jedi don't like telling the truth, if people loose faith, they're out of the job.

Besides, the writing for the movie is better this way.

On another note...
_________________________________
Anakin was only nice for a little while, namely, when he was a little kid. Damn puberty.
_________________________________

even though he's a jerk now... who's he sleeping with? like really... i'd turn to the darkside if Natalie Portman was one of the benefits

Homosexual Ewok
05-28-2002, 01:58 AM
Originally posted by Vagabond

* * * AOTC SPOILERS * * *
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
When Yoda and Mace Windu have their little pow-wow about not being able to detect the darksider that erased all records of the planet, Kamino from the jedi archives. And how they conspired to keep their "blindness" from the Republic. Whether through their own arrogance or ignorance, the Jedi Council was betraying the trust of those they had sworn to protect. Although it's merely speculation, I can't help but wonder if this deceit plays into the Jedi Purge that shall unfold in Episode III.


Good point.
Think about it like this.
Fear is the dark side right?
Why didn't they tell anyone their powers had weakened?
Because they were afraid.
Honesty, once again, could have prevented on Hell of a mess. Instead, they deceive and get what they deserved.
Oh, and Luke gets to clean up their mess...
I can't wait to see Vader and his galactic-Kung-Fu grip in action.

hyrit
05-28-2002, 05:30 AM
Know who the Jedi remind me of? Paladins, from certain fantasy worlds. Sometimes they're portrayed as being overly "just" and often times turn corrupt because of their power. Or certain holy knights whose churches sometimes lose their own path. They always say that a Dark Knight and Holy Knight are only different from certain viewpoints.

That's why I think Anakin really is the chosen one...he brings about the destruction of both the Jedi and Sith. Luke's Jedi seem to be of a different sort, and the essence of the Force probably knew that would happen. So basically, Anakin/Vader was the vehicle of the will of the Force. Torch the forest, and plant new seeds. He did both, and in more literal ways than it first seems. :P

Jabbas WhOr3
05-28-2002, 06:40 AM
Nice thread Dudes! Some valid points!
Luke is soo cool! he makes me feel all tingly! all that self sacrifice! heroism! :saberg: and his green sabre!
anyway....
:chucky:
The jedi do seem now to me to be quite shifty hmmmm hmmmm
But it will be good when Annie goes to Darth Vader :yobi: :saberg: ===> :saberr: :vadar:
chop chop chop go the Jedi!

Pity not all Jedi felt like Luke :(

Demangel
05-28-2002, 07:30 AM
good question but I personaly look at everything differently.


I'll adress ewoks points from his first post:

I don't feel Obi wan was using luke. Sometimes you have to look at the big picture... Obi wan was obviously waiting for the right time to tell Luke, and in a round about way he DID tell luke... As was explained in ROTJ I beleive.

"When Aniken Skywalker became Darth vader, the man that was your father was destroyed."

REMEMBER Obiwan did NOT go find luke... luke went out searching for him! If obi wan was using luke in this fashion he would have gone to get luke much sooner...

Also think of this, if luke was told right off the bat that Vader was his father how would he have reacted? would he have even believed it?

Remmeber the force... with the force, Obi wan and YODA would have some sort of precognition about what MIGHT transpire based on thier actions that WE don't know about and can only imagine.

In the end the way it happened ended up making luke grow the most while doing the least damage to his psychi.

As for killing vader... Well I don't know if the intent was purely to "KILL" vader. some people suggest Vader only REALLY died because he removed his mask. I personaly feel it's a mix, but obviously Luke tried to spare him and the emporer killed Vader.

Thus luke DID confront Vader, luke did not KILL vader. Remmeber the scene where luke throws down his saber and refuses to kill his father? If his goal (unspoken or otherwise) was to kill vader, he should have made a real attempt...

Besides think of the point behind confronting vader or anyone for that matter on your quest to become a Jedi. The point of this confrontation method, is to realise somehting intrinsic to being a Jedi or yourself. not to simply defeat a foe. Lukes confrontation if the story had gone differently might simply have been to confront his fear about losing his friends like he feels he must have lost everyone else he cares about (orphaned, his uncle and aunt murdered ETC).

If it was simply to defeat a foe, then it would have been said "In order to be a Jedi you must defeat a worthy oponant. This method seems to be how the sith gain power/rank in the movies (could be wrong though). In order to be a Sith you have to kill either the master or the aprentice in a certain way. (emporer: "Strike me down with it!" The point being either he or vader would have died, and thus the sith line could remain strong with two at the head of the table).

As for qui gonn, they didn't go to tatooine to free slaves... But what did he do? he freed the one he could. I mean honestly how could one or even two Jedi freee the slaves? the point is even Jedi have to pick thier battles wisely. If I where a Jedi I might have tried to free them, but I'm not one, and it's not real and I wasn't there...

Not sure about the pathetic life form statement, so I can't adress it (don't remember it).

Personaly I don't feel the Jedi where corrupt like some are speculating. however I agree they couldn't have been perfect.

What I think the balance of the force thing implied was what someone else said. the Jedi and sith BOTH being wiped out. the balance of POWER being set back into motion bouncing between good and evil. before TPM the universe was seemingly stagnant compared to later times. The Jedi council having quite a bit of power over everything, and basically good ruled from sea to shining sea (even if our ideals of good wheren't upheld on all shores like tatooine see what I mean?). then in steps the emporeror. the clone warts happen and aniken turns to the dark side... turmoil, death destruction... the pendulum violently shifts to the dark side... Then comes luke... he turns his father back to the light side by his examples, and actions... Examples and actions taught to him by his experiences and the teachings of yoda and Obi wan. Then Vader once again shifts the pendulum... pushing it back towards good... and now it's up to luke and the others to maintain this balance of good vs evil... though certainly good will end up being the victor, and thus the cycle of a chosen bringing balance might need to repeat itself...

finaly I leave you with a short exerpt from a cheesy kung fu movie called "Circle of Iron", from years ago... It stared David caradine in multiple roles and had one scene in particular that I think is very fitting to this discussion. (Ps I might screww up the story a bit since I haven't seen it in years but the moral is as I remember it to be).

David Caradine as the blind man incarnation of his character, and the Hero character are running from some enemy or whatever... David's character finds a man willing to row them across a river...
they get on and the burly man rows them over... david then proceeds to kick the side of the boat just as it lands on the other shore... breaking it ireeparably, and causing it to sink... the man rowing the baot gets upset, but they flee. the hero looks on upset, but doesn't have a chance to argue.

They come to a house and look for refuge, they are given a place to hide, and as soon as thier hunters pass them by david smashes the nose of a very handsome young boy, breaking it. the hero gets angry but they have no chance to argue since the hunters are coming back.

One other event happens that I don't remember... but the moral was this:

David explains to the hero his reasoning:

I destroyed the boat because the people after us would no doubt have stolen the boat, and beaten possibly killed the orsman since he would protest them using it without paying ETC.

The boy he punched was already a bit arrogent because of his good looks, now he will be more humble and less likely to hold himself to high on his horse...

the point? i hope you see the similarity, because I won't explain it further Heheh.

but look at how We percieve obi wan and others to contradict themselves if we get to caught up in the events. when we take the words good and evil and truth and justice too literaly we lose sight of what they really mean sometimes. what david caradines character did was for the greater good, as was what obi wan and others did as well...

If Ginn had stopped to try and free the slaves then the federation and the rest would definately know who was there doing it "Report, two Jedi are causing trouble on Tatooine, aiding ina war to free the slaves!" "AHH now we know where the gueen is! dispatch the armies ETC."

Thus he did what he thought would be for the greater good... Besides his first mission was to keep the queen safe... not simply lose himself in his good deeds...

good points? anyone disagree?

Fabba The Kabin
05-28-2002, 05:07 PM
About the " another Pathetic Life-form " quote, the previous life-form they had encounted was Jar Jar Binks, so I think that the "pathetic" is perfectly justified.

(HATE Jar Jar Binks, glad to see he didn't feature much in Episode 2)

Vestril
05-28-2002, 07:36 PM
Good post Demangel, I was intending on posting many of your points...

Anyway, I want to emphasize that I think Jedi are more focused on the big picture than anything else, it's like the scene where Padme falls out of the ship--which is more important, jumping out and possibly helping her, or running off and helping to stop a man who could tear the galaxy apart. Anakin and Obi Wan fail to stop him because Anakin is too emotionally charged, and too hurried to go back to help Padme to fight as he should, and he loses his arm for it.

Now look at the situation where Luke runs off to save his friends--what does he accomplish? All he does is lose his hand, and make it so that his friends have to come back and save him, thus putting them in more danger. Lucas is showing us that Yoda was right, Luke shouldn't have foolishly run of to save his friends, he should have kept his focus on what was key.

I agree with Ewok, however, that the Jedi in the era of the Rebublic were too arrogant. It seems as though Yoda was the only one who was truly cautious about things. If the council had not been so arrogant, Anakin might have undergone training from a different, wiser Master (remember that Yoda was against the Council's decison) and could have been powerful enough to help stop Sidious in his tracks, rather than being weak and falling to the Dark Side.

Anyway, just some more food for thought :)