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View Full Version : Outsider's view of JKII 1.03


Hell
05-28-2002, 01:38 AM
I just bought this game and enjoyed it greatly. I am not a big multiplayer fan and generally play flight sims. I have read a great deal of the concern about the 1.03 patch and the so-called "assfighting" phenomenon.

I used to work in a mod group called Realism Patch Group (RPG) for the simulation, Falcon4. When we worked on that, one of our most sacred obligations was to "do no harm" to the simulation. Implicit in our approach was the assumption that we were working on a complex system where even seemingly small tweaks could produce cascading side effects that, in amny instances, could ruin the balance of the game. We tried very hard to avoid that. and I believe we did a good job.

What I read here in these forums, now servers are rife with people "running around backwards", and servers are trying to "outlaw" certain moves (the backstab). All I can say is that, apparently, the 1.03 patch rewards a bizarre style of play (running backwards to execute an inappropriately successful move) and an inordinate amount of discontent among players.

Simply observing this from the outside, there indeed seems to be a rather significant flaw in the 1.03 patch. The very fact that that the most "succesful" playing styles, which evolved by natural selection in the 1.03 environment, consist of running backwards doing a "backstab," is evidence of this. EVidence that is made more certain as server administrators are apparantly compelled to outlaw certain moves. No matter what the developers intended to do, no matter how much testing they did, ithe best evidence for whether or not the patch works properly is how it affects the play of teh game. When a large percentage of the players are running around in reverse, and many serveres are considering outlawing certain styles of play, no amount of rationalizing can deflect the obvious implications.

Perhaps Ravne's testing did not reveal the cascading effects this would have in a multiplay environment. Its hard to know.

I dont do multiplay and am just about finished playing JKII a 2nd time through. Then I will be done with it. I hope that Raven does indeed consider amending their code. When I was in RPG we frequently ran into these kinds of problems. We also fixed them.

Regards,

PStewart
RPG Emeritus

Nathan Wind
05-28-2002, 01:55 AM
raven did no testing.

i suspect that they will further destroy the game by hindering other moves that have a purpose.

backstab had a purpose in 1.02. it didnt kill immediately. raven needs to realize this as well.

jarek
05-28-2002, 02:01 AM
the backstab worked the same way before the patch, it just wasnt popular until the DFA was removed.

i dont mean for this to come across as rude, but since you are an "outside" observer and dont have much (if any) online playing experience with JK2, why have you even commented on it? experienced players can (and do) avoid being backstabbed. i do it many times each game. its as easy to avoid as it is to excute the move.

ive said it many times before, the rocket launcher and the secondary fire on the fletchet gun can kill you in 1 well placed shot also. no one ever seems to complain about this. why is a saber 1 hit kill move considered lame and a gun 1 hit kill move not? no one has even been able to answer that. cuz there isnt an answer.

i like the backstab move and i use it. mind you i dont run around backwards all day tho. and its not the only move i use.

Nathan Wind
05-28-2002, 02:34 AM
he has a point. playing a game with your ass sticking out is silly. the fact that this game now encourages fighting with your ass sticking out is a sad fact

Talon_of_BHG
05-28-2002, 02:52 AM
Is it coincidence the one move not changed by the patch is the one a lot of ppl like to use? All the moves can be avoided or countered in some way. That was the same before the patch. the real problem is the ppl who abuse these moves, not necessarily the moves themselves. pre patch ppl complained about other ppl spamming the dfa. raven responded by nerfing the dfa and the other things that players complained about. Its nice to know Raven was watching but nerfing moves isnt the answer. They should have added to the game rather than taking away from it. I never had a problem with any of these moves like dfa or backstab and I still dont. It just feels like you bought a car and then afterward they switched the kick ass engine with a smaller one. If you look at it that way, its kind of a bad thing isnt it? fix the bugs, balance the exploits, but dont take away from the game like that cause while those that didnt learn how to counter the moves were satisfied, those of us that did feel a little betrayed (see car example above). The point is there was no need to totally nerf the moves that ppl were pissed about cause these same ppl would have learned how to counter them soon enough anyway.

I dont know if i put my point across right, i am not taking anything away from anyone here. I just feel that adding to the game would have been a better strategy then taking away from it.

Nathan Wind
05-28-2002, 02:54 AM
it was changed. backstab/sweep no matter what the stance was only seldom lethal. it also moved the charachter back so only one blow connected.

Ready Wan
05-28-2002, 03:21 AM
backstab wasnt such a big deal in 1.02 because the dark side powers weren't so crippled.
1.03 crippled the dark side powers (granted: some needed tweaking.. i.e. drain, but they didnt need neutering, which has created the problem in 1.03), and so now the only way to avoid the backstab is to be Light side and use absorb.

also, in 1.03 there were other moves that worked as well, so there was some variety in attacks, making for an interesting and intuitive game.

1.03 has ruined the game. play light side and live, play dark side and get reamed (sorry for the analogy).

1.03 forces players to use absorb and rage to protect from the backstab. Lightening is the only usable darkside power...and only then against newbies who dont know about absorb.

this WAS such a great game :(

Nathan Wind
05-28-2002, 03:23 AM
you are right on all things except that i wanted to point out that backstab/sweep now does a greater amount of damage than in 1.02

Drepanon
05-28-2002, 10:51 AM
Hi all,
The people who cry about a certain tactic or move always prompt a lame patch. Sadly, The people who are hurt by a massive change in game play are the ones who really took time to refine their skill. I played Starfleet Command for 5 years and the developers completely changed the game three times with patching. I will not go through that again. It was very frustrating and quite frankly I feel it is unacceptable.

I subscribe to the adapt philosophy. It took time, patience, and practice but, I rarely am killed from DFA and the back stabbers I simply throw a saber up their butt until they turn around. Their is always a counter to a move. In reguards to the force lamers.... I halved the force regen time in my server config. This way they can have Master level force but they had better think about when to use it. Many things can be tweaked in the config file that I hear people complain about.

I still run 1.02 servers for now.
The server addresses are:

209.204.71.200
209.204.71.201
209.204.71.207

w1ggl3s
05-28-2002, 10:58 AM
Backstab wasnt so pwrfull in 1.02 because you Bounced off the saber.

So as you flipped up the bs would connect and send you hurtling into space,

Most of the time i spend aiming my backstab in 1.02 so people fall off the Ledge.

I love the 1.03 backstab. But i hate 1.03.

If all backstabs where like BLue we wouldnt be having this problem. on person effected by the backstab at one time.

Not this huge sweep executed by the press of 2 buttons.

I use a series of set up moves that i learned in the first few weeks of jk2 to give myself the advantage over someone else.

IE so that i can use backstab on them.

It was hard to do in 1.02 against realy good players. and the ping pong effect off the sabers made it even tuffer.

in 1.03 it was hard to use my set ups against anyone. but the backstab was easy to use because it passed threw people dont loads of dmg.

I think they just need to make all the backstabs like the blue . Hurt one person and one person only.

If they want a spiral hit like that in the game make it do something else :)

Wiggles

Master Rooster
05-28-2002, 11:10 AM
As I see it, and I do have bad eyesight, the problem with backstab is not so much its power, because it can be avoided, but its silliness. Causing people to run about backwards is bad enough, but when you think about it, the whole concept is silly - when your back is turned, you should be exposed. I instinctively go round the back of people to get easy hits in a fight, but then they just backstab. You should be weaker, not stronger, from behind. If they are going to keep the move as it is, they should at least make a forward equivalent, balancing out the directions.

Patton
05-28-2002, 11:26 AM
I didn't read all the posts, so don't sue me if this has already been said.

But this is really quite stupid. You're blaming the wrong people for the backstabbing problems. Raven tested. In fact, I'll bet they tested alot. But there is one thing testing will never, ever reveal: idiots, and how they play. If these idiots want to play like idiots, and run backwards trying to backstab, let them. If fun means winning by looking like a retard (it was the same issue with bunny-hopping in counter-strike,) then so be it. But I enjoy the new patch. Incidently, the company I keep consists of intelligent people out to have a good time and recreate the great lightsaber battles we saw in the movies.

We don't need a new patch to take this move out. What we need is a way to club some people over the head for being retarded.

Spider AL
05-28-2002, 12:16 PM
the backstab worked the same way before the patch, it just wasnt popular until the DFA was removed.

This is the same nonsense as always, FYI pre-patch the light stance backstab was simply not as viable as an attack... and frankly even now the light stance backstab is not a guaranteed one-hit-kill.

The RED style backswing IS. Now before the patch, the red stance backswing (like all red stance strikes) knocked the opponent away a bit on the FIRST TOUCH. This meant that no further damage could be dealt. With the removal of the "batsabre effect" in 1.03, the backswing does full damage.

Whereas before the opponent had to be prone AND backed into a corner for the backswing to do comparable damage, now you can backswing someone while they're standing out in the open, and it will probably do full damage.

Also it's worth noting that since the red stance strikes all did a decent amount of damage pre-patch, people in FFA were less likely to resort to 1-hit-kill moves, simply because sabre fights didn't take long to finish, and you could deal damage swiftly without using the one-hit-wonders. Now sabre fights take twice as long, and when you're fighting several people at once they are no longer viable. Backswing is really the quickest way to end a fight... So whether the people who use it are "idiots" or not is neither here nor there, Raven have, unwittingly or not, supplied a single uber-powerful move that works so well you can go the entire game without using another, AND you can win it in this manner.

This is unacceptable.

C'jais
05-28-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Master Rooster
You should be weaker, not stronger, from behind. If they are going to keep the move as it is, they should at least make a forward equivalent, balancing out the directions.

Word.

Some people just expect a game to be perfectly balanced from day one. Some people "adjust" and take advantage (abuse, in my book) of a game's flaws, other people abolish such moves and try hard to ignore the flaws and leave them alone and forgotten.

1.02 was horrible, nuff said. 1.03 with its actually *present* blocking system is much better, but they didn't need to lower the damage as well. These 2 factors (blocking and low damage) clearly resulted in da backstab/slash. That move is so hideous and lame that im soon gonna puke all over it and the players who constantly use it. Nowhere in the movies do they use it, and it's pathetically unrealistic, pointed out by Rooster above.

I say: Keep the move the move but make it clearly blockable, get rid of the 340 degree blocking arc, and add a frontal *stab* which is also clearly blockable but has high damage potential and leaves the user *very vulnerable*.

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 12:36 PM
If you get killed by a back sweep all the time, than you need to touch up on your skill. That's all I can say. The move is slow, and it takes time to execute and very easily countered. You don't just stand there like a sitting duck waiting for them to do it. And if yo ugive the the excuse that in FFA you can't see them coming because you're fighting someone else, then still, there's no difference from that move and a rocket placed right into two duelers. It's all the same, so don't whine about it.

The way I see it, the moves are perfectly fine, the game needs 1 hit kills. Unless you want a game that goes no where, and getse boring quick and has NO sense of danger when dueling. The reason backstab and sweep were used very seldomly in 1.02 was because if you had your back turned for a second, you could have been dead, it was just not worth it to run at a guy with your back turned. Now with the decreased damage that all YOU whiners complained about, running backwards is completely fine, and you won't get hurt as much. This is inevitably all YOUR fault, as this problem of backstab would NEVER have arose if you guys didn't complain about heavy being too strong or SHIET like that. Well guys, THIS is the punishment for your USELESS and POINTLESS complaints back in teh day when you were TOO LAZY to learn that HEAVY was not luck, and was counterable and slow, and that MEDIUM was a VERY good stance to use. YOU ruined the game for ALL of the people who decided to take the time to learn HOW to defend against moves instead of COMPLAIN and get those moves removed. Yes, all YOU complainers are to blame, and now all YOU are complaining again. Why can't you guys just SUCK IT IN, GROW UP, and stop asking your Mommy RAVEN to FIX ALL THIS SHIET FOR YOU.

Oh, and flame me all you want, but please have good reason to back your statements up. Statements calling me bantha Fodder (since I do not spend much time here complaining usually) do not constitute a reason to flame, as DannyJ did the other day.

Don't agree? tell me how this statement is flawed.

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 12:41 PM
If you think 1.03 is better than 1.02, and like all the saber changes, then you my friend, are a n00b, and did not take the time to learn how to saber well in 1.02. The only thing that could possibly have needed changing was the after effect of the DFA. THAT'S IT....everything else was balanced, and each battle in duel was as heated as the next. You could die in two hits (not including DFA, since that is easily defendable). Medium killed in 2 hits. Heavy killed in 2 hits. no difference. Heavy was slow and after swinging leaves you wide open for attack from faster attacks. Medium was quicker but does less damage than heavy. They both have their strengths and then obviously inturn have their weaknesses. The only arguement is that light COULD have been tweaked to make ti more evenly matched with medium and heavy.

1.03 is bad, and the fact taht you are complaining AGAIN is even worse. Just play the game and leave it as is, for there will always be a 1 hit move, and it will always be abused. so shut up and learn how to defend against it.

Nathan Wind
05-28-2002, 12:46 PM
the only thing that was bad (maybe) in 1.02 was the DFA in that i could never run up and kill the idiot as fast as id like to. i never got hit. the matches just dragged on longer than it had to.

i didnt even mind/care about that though

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 12:49 PM
EXACTLY Nathan, there was nothing wrong with it..it was these NO SKILL n00bs, who are complaining about BACKSTAB right now, that were here complaining about 1.02. They're like that annoying little neighbour that just won't shut up and deal with things themselves, have to go crying on mommy and telling on people.

Spider AL
05-28-2002, 12:51 PM
If you get killed by a back sweep all the time, than you need to touch up on your skill. That's all I can say.

Dark "begger", you're obviously not experienced enough to post your opinions yet.

Pull + Backswing is unblockable. One-hit-kill.

NF duelling is fine, and that's probably all you play, so good on you. But all Force games from FFA to duel have been mauled by 1.03.

Now with the decreased damage that all YOU whiners complained about, running backwards is completely fine, and you won't get hurt as much. This is inevitably all YOUR fault, as this problem of backstab would NEVER have arose if you guys didn't complain about heavy being too strong or SHIET like that. Well guys, THIS is the punishment

Who exactly are you talking to? The people who whined about sabres not being leet enough are all HAPPY now! They're running around in NF duels (which was all they played anyway) after ruining the game for serious force players! "Back in the day" people of comparable intelligence to yourself were whining, and people like myself and Nathan were telling them that they shouldn't. The result of their whining was that THEY GOT THEIR WAY, and so if I must post repeatedly in an attempt to grab Raven's attention and get them to fix the silly mess of 1.03, then so be it.

Sort your darned facts out.

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 12:58 PM
actually no..you're wrong, I can bet you that more than 50% of the poeple complaining about backstab right now, also complained about DFA..or heavy being too strong..or something else in 1.02. actually I can bet more than 75% of the people did complain then and are complaining about something else now.

Oh and as for pull, you get something called level 3 pull...and guess what, you don't fall to the ground unless they're right infront of your face! They roll at you? jump! wow..nto that difficult...no special moves..just jump and roll or do whatever, if you can tell when a guy is going to pull you, you can always have the upper hand. Pull counters pull, so you can render it useless, unless you let the guy get right up to you touching your nuts. And if you let that happen, you should be dead anyways.

Spider AL
05-28-2002, 01:09 PM
actually no..you're wrong, I can bet you that more than 50% of the poeple complaining about backstab right now, also complained about DFA..or heavy being too strong..or something else in 1.02. actually I can bet more than 75% of the people did complain then and are complaining about something else now.

If you think adding percentages adds weight to your argument, you're wrong. You have no proof for these wild stabs in the dark.

Having said that, I have no doubt that there are still SOME of the original whiners around here, but I think the patch catered precisely FOR them, so I doubt their numbers are substantial.

Oh and as for pull, you get something called level 3 pull...and guess what, you don't fall to the ground unless they're right infront of your face!

The same idiotic tosh, you don't have to be touching your foe or even close to touching your foe to knock them down REGARDLESS of what they've assigned to pull or push. The minumum distance is appreciable. Same old story with your post, someone who hasn't bothered to research the power expounding his "expert opinion" of it on these forums. Well flipping done.

In a FF duel, it's now "who pulls wins." The only way to get a good duel is to disable pull... and I've won hundreds of FF duels through pull, so I'm well qualified to make this statement. In a sabres only free for all, it's "pull the group and backswing!" even if one or two stay standing through absorb or having jumped during the pull, it's still the only method of racking up kills quickly, and the person who does it most efficiently wins. In No Force sabres only FFA, it's "wait till a group forms, then backswing it!" And no matter how hard you try to play without resorting to backswing, there's no way you'll keep up with a backswinger. In Guns FF FFA, it's "find the darksiders, pull them and backswing them." Don't even get me started on Jedi Master. If you spent any time at all playing a range of modes you'd realise just how ruined the game is since 1.03.

Nathan Wind
05-28-2002, 01:14 PM
whoa whoa. all 3 of us are on the same team.

but... pull backstab is unstoppable.

i think you do have a point about the people complaining. "ass-fighters" are not good people. i never got back stabbed unless i got pulled first. i never backstabbed myself unless i pulled first, (or went ninja with mind trick).

whiners are whiners. but there are whiners who win and those that loose. i win, and i am very pissed about this game


and as long as i dont get anymore sarcastic, whiney posts from you begger, im happy ;)

Revik Val'Thek
05-28-2002, 01:15 PM
In my opinion, Force games are more skilled than NF games, if both players know what they are doing.

Both must keep their forces to maximum potential so they can either avoid a pull/backstab, or drain so they cant pull you.

Force is fun in duels, its the people that don't understand the game that complain about pulls + backstab.

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 01:15 PM
If you have enough in your force pool and aren't close to they guy, you won't be knocked down. I've done this in 1.02, and done this in 1.03. I have played FF duels, and you have to be up close in order to pull a guy down who has level 3 force. ask anyone else on here. I don't know what you're playing, or who you're playing, maybe they're using a script or something, but you have to be close if they have a substantial force pool. And don't say I haven't tested this, I have tested every aspect of 1.03, from CTF, to TDM, to CTY, etc etc... I have to as I report on our clan forums what these changes do to certain tactics, and how to get around them. So don't tell me I did not research. You CANNOT I repeat CANNOT be pulled down to the ground if you have a substantial force pool and you are at a distance FURTHER than his or yoru light saber reaches.

As for the percentage, no I do not have no proof. But if you look at the posts complaining about backstab..(if you want I can go find one) they usually compliment how Raven took away DFA (meaning they were happy with they changes that Raven changed for them) but now have something else to complain about. Raven may have changed all the things for them and made them happy, but since backstab came, they have become disgruntled again, and have returned.

BlackDove
05-28-2002, 01:20 PM
hahahahahahahaha

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 01:23 PM
just put it this way, since I've been playing 1.03, in FF 1v1 duels, I have never been pulled from any distance further than the length of my light saber...the only time I have ever fallen from a pull is a roll/pull or after I do a DFA ( although it's nerfed, it'sstill fun to use ..not useful though..) and they guy comes up and pulls me down THEN backstabs me..which I'm perfectly fine with. I have always been able to counter a pull (like not fall down, and not get pulled far) any distance greater than that with a full force pool.

C'jais
05-28-2002, 01:56 PM
Now, I got the game 3-4 days *before* the dreaded patch came out. Some of you will probably say that that means i have no say at all in this matter, i'm a skillless n00b and so on. I will only say that i didn't get into the "old" tactics and method of playing, and consequently didn't have to adapt to the patch.

I'll stand up and say every day that a developer has a vision of how their game should be, and they will patch it if it furthers that vision. Raven's vision is obviously starwars and the focus on lightsaber battles. The patch got the game *closer* to that vision, but also failed to achieve the "vision/gameplay" balance, which is why i really expect a new patch to come out some time.

Now you can actually block, cool eh? Well, not too cool, since they made the blocking arc way too big (possible to block attacks from the rear).

Now the lightsabres give less damage so we can have longer, drawn-out fights like in the movies, cool eh? Not so, since they also made more blocking, so the fights drag on *endlessly*. This is where Raven failed IMHO.

As I said, i'd rather play 1.03 because i grew up with it, and the idea of jousting is completely abhorrent to me and dreadfully reminds me of the jk1 saber fights. So, for me, it provides more fun and is closer to the movie feel. Backstab is something i could not live with, if it wasn't for the fair people i play with, and the private servers i frequent.

The patch made the game better, but it isn't complete or perfect in any way. Raven still has time to fix their design flaws.

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 02:23 PM
Very good response...but there's one problem..

The thing is, Raven did not patch it to bring it closer to 'their' vision...rather it was patched for the people on here..the 'whiners' vision...thus it did not bring them closer to their vision at all. As for the rest, I cannot agree with all of it, as I do not think 1.03 is better, but I do agree with teh blocking being nice...and the damage decrease bad. If the damage was reverted back to 1.02 with this blocking system, backstabbers would be destroyed since they cannot block attacks to their back and will have to think twice before going in as they could die instantly.

Bambers
05-28-2002, 02:53 PM
These are my thoughts on the patches:

The damage of normal strikes should go up from the 1.03 patch. 40/60/80 or 30/60/90 for blue yellow and red. The backstabs should do the same damage as a normal strike and also need to be considered as a normal swing so that with the extra sabre tracing cvar (the big cause of the added blocking although the arc needs to be reduced) it only strikes the same number of times per second as a normal swing. The specials seem to hit about 3x as fast. The heavy backstab needs a new animation, one that is as slow as the other heavy swings.

With the force powers i think the best way to restore balance to the force (:D) would to be to stop pull and push knocking people down especially if they have the same level of the opposite power as you. (if you have level 3 push and pull and are close when someone pulls you with their level 3 you WILL end up on your arse). This would drastically reduce the power of absorb without even altering it directly.

I think kick should be reverted to a single jump as well. Now you can kick from far away and some 56kers have trouble kicking at all.

GE Predator
05-28-2002, 03:24 PM
Am I playing on a different version of JO 1.02 or something? Where did this illusion that you can't block in 1.02 come from? I can block ON PURPOSE all the time. See, the trick is you can't be swinging your saber non stop. If ya do, you'll never block, ever.

The whole idea with saber battles in 1.02 was to play consciously, and not rely on luck to win the day. When someone swings at you, FACE THEM and DO NOT swing, don't look at the pretty background and expect your saber to magically block when your not even facing the guy, and you'll block the hit.

Like sheeit, I have the most intense duels in 1.02 with my clan mates cause we all learned how to duel. And it wasn't something that happened in a couple days. After the first month of JO's release we were having more fun then ever before with the sabers. A couple beginners have even learned from us when we hosted duels on the zone and they became formidable opponents :).

It's VERY possible to have close contact duels in 1.02, where you and the other guy are almost face to face, and not taking turns batting at eachother from 6 ot 7 player distances away. AND you can still block.

The only trouble I have personally is blocking strong stance downward swings. But yeah, if you play a decent opponent, you'll realise that move has considerable risks since it's so slow and your open to take multiple fast stance hits or 1 or 2 med ones. Maybe even a heavy if the person swung at the same time as you. I use it for people who are running or on the ground or if they jump with force jump, cause ya can sometimes catch them on the way down lol. Like in the Bespin Air Vanes map LOL, SO funny to just send em back (sometimes they hit the steam) or into the pit.

And I'm not BSing this either. Ya just had to learn to duel in 1.02, whereas in 1.03 there's absolutely no learning curve at all. Which is why I hate it. It sucked the fun right out of dueling since any n00b can dominate a server with luck. And the timing of swings is shot to hell cause of all the magical blocking everyone has.

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 03:29 PM
Thank you..you took the words STRAIGHT out of my mouth...1.02 had a higher learning curve and people were reluctant to ride it, and thus 1.03 came out.

Agen
05-28-2002, 03:36 PM
Originally posted by Dark Begger
If you think 1.03 is better than 1.02, and like all the saber changes, then you my friend, are a n00b, and did not take the time to learn how to saber well in 1.02. The only thing that could possibly have needed changing was the after effect of the DFA. THAT'S IT....everything else was balanced, and each battle in duel was as heated as the next. You could die in two hits (not including DFA, since that is easily defendable). Medium killed in 2 hits. Heavy killed in 2 hits. no difference. Heavy was slow and after swinging leaves you wide open for attack from faster attacks. Medium was quicker but does less damage than heavy. They both have their strengths and then obviously inturn have their weaknesses. The only arguement is that light COULD have been tweaked to make ti more evenly matched with medium and heavy.

1.03 is bad, and the fact taht you are complaining AGAIN is even worse. Just play the game and leave it as is, for there will always be a 1 hit move, and it will always be abused. so shut up and learn how to defend against it.

I jsut about disagree with everything u said there.
I boguht the game day 1 and learned it very well,
Everything else was not balanced
DFA was definately not defendable, unless u scrammed and sometimes it wasd hard to see fro 56kers like moi
er... it depends what time of hit u try to kill them, they aren't all the same
I never complained in the first place
You obviously haven't palyed enough, if u play a good palyer that spams backstab chances are very low.

Am I playing on a different version of JO 1.02 or something? Where did this illusion that you can't block in 1.02 come from? I can block ON PURPOSE all the time. See, the trick is you can't be swinging your saber non stop. If ya do, you'll never block, ever.

U mix things up alot, it wasn't reliable at all.

Colonel Fury
05-28-2002, 04:00 PM
I also started playing JKII 2 to 3 days before the patch. My biggest problem, post-patch, is with the players that spam pull+backstab combol. When you are playing darkside (more fun IMO) you are completely defenseless against this when engaged in 1-on-1 combat. If it were changed so that only push knocks you to the ground (and at a distance) I think everything with 1.03 would be perfect.:D

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 04:11 PM
well I'm sorry, but it's time to upgrade yoru internet connection, I have also been playing from day one, I remember waiting at the friggin store to get first grabs on the game...

I have DSL, and means I played 5-6 hours a day or more. On 56k, I do not know fi you can fully experience the intensity of the game, and yes, you will be put at a hinderance with 1.02.

But, first of all, DFA is not defendable, but you can move out of the way..again, your 56k is a downfall to that, but we can't change the game because 56k users can't defend against it. If that's the case, then they shouldn't make new games do to the fact that some people have slower processor speeds and can't play as well..same sort of thing there..if you want the good game, you don't complain to the company to cater to you, you upgrade and buy yourself a better system so that doesn't doesn't put you at a downfall.

Next, yes timing is different for each swing, but if you took the time to learn them all, (like I have..except for light stance) then there is no problem, and you will have timing for each and every move.

As for your last sentence..I could not make sense of it.

If you are on 56k, that means you do not use the internet that much, I am involved in a company as a webpage designer, and am online quite a bit, and play JK2 like no other. So although you may have been playing from day 1, I have been playing atleast 6 hours a day from day 1, so I'm SURE I beat you there.

So the main points of this post if you're lazy to read:

56k user - upgrade or settle for the consequences, not ask them to change the game to better suit you.

Balance? - The game was quite balanced, you just had to have the timing down...since you couldn't with 56k, I can forgive you for that.

Telling me you've been playing since day 1 - so have I, and I play 6 hours a day or more...you on 56k, I would think less than 3 hours a day..if that.

Call me a geek all you want, I play this much because I loved the game. If you flame me about how much I play, it's obvious that you cannot retort to my answers above.

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 04:14 PM
And did I say I am part of a clan and actively participate in finding new combinations of moves to post on our clan forums? So it was partly my JOB to learn the moves...so dont' tell me you've learned the moves more than I have..1.02, I knew all the devastating moves and how to counter them..not trying to brag, but just saying don't give the the bs that I didn't know the game well enough. If you thoguht the game was unbalanced, then YOU my friend did not know the game well enough.

Patton
05-28-2002, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by Dark Begger
If you think 1.03 is better than 1.02, and like all the saber changes, then you my friend, are a n00b, and did not take the time to learn how to saber well in 1.02.

Ow. That hurts. I like 1.03. I guess I'm a n00b.

But take note: when I play 1.03, I have more fun than I did in 1.02. Whether I die or not is inconseqential. I enjoy the long, drawn out saber battles that go on right now. I like how the saber system is more like the single player game. I like the lack of a learning curve.

Allow me to tell you something else: not everyone can be a "l33t d00d" like you and your buddies who apparently sat around all day playing 1.02 to learn how to joust well, and win all day. I'm perfectly fine with being at the top, middle, or bottom of the list. Beating someone doesn't make me a better player, and someone beating me doesn't make them a better player. This bull**** about being a "n00b" is re-goddamn-diculous.

A couple more things: If you hate the patch so much, don't install it. On the other end, don't be a hypocrit. I wasn't whining for a new patch before, and I won't now, but you're doing the same thing the whiners did pre-patch. You want Raven to change the game back so that everyone will be back on square one, and you won't shutup till you get your way. If you're so goddamn good at this game, then stop whining about it on some message board, and learn to live with the changes, like almost everyone else has.

Dark Begger
05-28-2002, 04:24 PM
Very good points, I'm glad there is a calm member out there who isn't quick to make fun (unless some of those remarks were sarcastic). Anyways,

I play 1.03, I can do well in it, I dislike it, but I can still hold my own..granted I'm not as good as before..but I'm still above average.

The reason I started 'complaining' on this post was because of the people complaining about back stab. I agree with you, we shouldn't complain, but the people complaining about backstab will get this move destroyed. Then another move will appear and it too, will be destroyed, then anoter, and another... If everyone decided to play the game and learn to counter the backstab, the amount of backstabbers would diminish and also no changes would have had to take place. I do not know how this turned over into a debate between 1.02 and 1.03, but I guess I was slowly brought to that subject. for that I am sorry.

Agen
05-28-2002, 04:47 PM
well I'm sorry, but it's time to upgrade yoru internet connection, I have also been playing from day one, I remember waiting at the friggin store to get first grabs on the game...

U forget a phrase called " not available in your area" and also "38.75 a month for broadband and anyway i cna kick msot peps ass"

I have DSL, and means I played 5-6 hours a day or more. On 56k, I do not know fi you can fully experience the intensity of the game, and yes, you will be put at a hinderance with 1.02.

My friend who lvies out side my area (pretty far) has a cable modem and seriously, apart from the split timing difference, it's basicly the same. Trust me

But, first of all, DFA is not defendable

He said that

but you can move out of the way..again, your 56k is a downfall to that, but we can't change the game because 56k users can't defend against it. If that's the case, then they shouldn't make new games do to the fact that some people have slower processor speeds and can't play as well..same sort of thing there..if you want the good game, you don't complain to the company to cater to you, you upgrade and buy yourself a better system so that doesn't doesn't put you at a downfall.

Er.. i said soemtimes, read thouraly and at no time did i ever say they should make it better for 56kers.

Next, yes timing is different for each swing, but if you took the time to learn them all, (like I have..except for light stance) then there is no problem, and you will have timing for each and every move.

I was statinga ponit not compalining or saying it's too hard.

As for your last sentence..I could not make sense of it.

How hard is it to read that blocknig wasn't reliable, you could run by and hit and they coudln't block it damn it. expecting or not.

If you are on 56k, that means you do not use the internet that much, I am involved in a company as a webpage designer, and am online quite a bit, and play JK2 like no other. So although you may have been playing from day 1, I have been playing atleast 6 hours a day from day 1, so I'm SURE I beat you there.

your sureness is you downfall, because i have a 56k deos not make me internet disabled, i am on 3-7 hours a day no matter waht u say it's true and you cannot say anything against that.
I am a graphics designer and i am constantly online at work, i'm not including that time either. otherwise it'd be at least 12 hours a day. I do not mean to say i am on 24/7but an awful lot.

Balance? - The game was quite balanced, you just had to have the timing down...since you couldn't with 56k, I can forgive you for that.
why has no one made a sigh smilie yet, u idiots.

Telling me you've been playing since day 1 - so have I, and I play 6 hours a day or more...you on 56k, I would think less than 3 hours a day..if that.

You think wrong

56k user - upgrade or settle for the consequences, not ask them to change the game to better suit you.

1. Can't
2. Never did :cool:

I lvee saying this
:D :D :D :D :D

Call me a geek all you want, I play this much because I loved the game. If you flame me about how much I play, it's obvious that you cannot retort to my answers above.

Just Did

----> . <----

jarek
05-28-2002, 11:22 PM
PULL + BACKSTAB IS POSSIBLE TO STOP!

its called absorb. make a hotkey.
and if your a dark jedi, use rage.

falling on the ground is your real problem. the whole idea behind pulling someone on the ground (and this is before backstab was used) is that when youre laying on the ground you are 100% vulnerable to ALL attacks. thats the way the force pull was designed. of course there is nothing you can do! duh, thats why people do it!

just like when someone pushes u off a cliff theres nothing u can do about it. youre helpless in both situations, why is falling off a cliff an acceptable helpless situation and not the pull + backstab? cuz you like to whine.

use common sense.

Father Time
05-28-2002, 11:46 PM
I think, 1.03 plain sucks ass.

And is way to unbalanced.

1.02 has some flaws (Visible F.absorb) but is way better balanced in gameplay.

I down graded it to 1.02 and I'm just addicted to JK2 again!!!

I'm having so much fun in 1.02. While 1.03 was "I'm trying to get better on this but this ain't no fun" for hours.

So, screw 1.03 and go back to 1.02

Aegis
05-29-2002, 12:35 AM
Originally posted by Father Time
I think, 1.03 plain sucks ass.

And is way to unbalanced.

1.02 has some flaws (Visible F.absorb) but is way better balanced in gameplay.

I down graded it to 1.02 and I'm just addicted to JK2 again!!!

I'm having so much fun in 1.02. While 1.03 was "I'm trying to get better on this but this ain't no fun" for hours.

So, screw 1.03 and go back to 1.02 I used to think the same thing, but one day I decided to suck it up, and play, and now I've not only gotten my skill back, but I've found some of the best players online to play with. You should give 1.03 another shot.

Just remember, this doesn't mean I endorse all changes made, but it still isn't that bad.

Cedrin
05-29-2002, 02:07 AM
I quit playing Jedi Knight becuase I lost my faith in Raven.

The game was great the day I bought it, and all my friends thought it was one of the best FPS combat based games there was.

The fact that raven is catering to the minority of complainers on the forums made me lost all my trust in them. They butchered a great game and most of my friends have already found better games to play since this has happend.

As stated by serveral other experienced players, 1.02 had a high learning curve and you couldnt run into a game and win by swinging widely. I learned that fact the first few days of playing and started learning strategies and moves that made my gameplay very enjoyable. The lowered damage and magical blocking was just stupid. I can put up with the saber combat being more like single player but this.... Your not suppost to block from behind, hell you cant even see your opponet and magical block a swing in the back. Blocking was done by cautious combat in 1.02. You had to face your opponet and prevent from swinging while he makes an attack.

All I hear are complainers saying how you cant block and how much more fun 1.03 was. You know what that means? That means you died a lot in 1.02. That means you couldnt make the learning curve. That means you didnt want to play the game.

And about this nonsense about games should hamper gameplay for the 56kers. Give me a break. First Person Shooters are designed primarly for broadband users. If you are complaining that your connection is too slow, that buy a RTS game. Get a game that doesnt depend greatly on your connection.

As for my personal opinion on the matter of 56k not being available in your area, then why do you live there? One of the top priorities on my list when I bought my house was how fast of an internet connection I could get there for the price.

Next time you move someplace, maybe you should check on the broadband availablity first before complaining after the fact.

Ready Wan
05-29-2002, 02:48 AM
...it would be nice for Raven to at least acknowledge that a patch is in the works. At least then it would be bearable to wait around for a few months. an expansion pack, while it costs money, is another option....

neither has been committed to by Raven.

so until they speak up, back to 1.02...at least its FUN! :)

FatalStrike
05-29-2002, 03:46 PM
I think that this Dark Begger guy is 100% right.

This dumb patch exists because morons hated losing. Besides the DFA neutering and the blocking with the back of your head, they also made it ridiculously SLOW.

1.02 was fast paced and intense. If you made a dumb mistake you paid for it. In 1.03 you can make any mistake short of falling into a pit and still survive. This is better to you people?

Anyway Begger you mentioned a clan that still plays 1.02? Let me know the web site?

GooglyMoogly
05-29-2002, 04:18 PM
1.02 = more skill..higher learning curve??? wtf?.

All I can say is that in 1.02 I had the top score on the server a WHOLE lot more than I do now...and it's not because of the pull/backstab whores. It was because I could go ape-**** on my keyboard and mouse button and come away with a boat load of kills. Now I need to think and react a whole lot more to win a fight.

In 1.02 it was easy to get lots of kills without using specials..now the only way to get lots of kills(most of the time) is to whore the specials. This is an improvement in my mind. I don't care that I get 6 or 7 kills to the leaders 25 because those 6 or 7 kills were EARNED not gotten through lame tactics or random luck.

Cedrin
05-29-2002, 07:10 PM
You consider whoring the specials an improvement in your mind? What is wrong with you.

I have also noticed that a lot of people tend to speak about 1.03 without seeing all aspects that have been ruined by it.

Have any of you played any full force dueling or FFA in 1.03? If you have, then you would know how badly it has been raped.

You dont so any saber combat in Force dulers. The strategy on force gameplay consists of being light side, keeping absorb up to prevent from being knocked down, and use pull/backsweep to kill your enemies. Everyone does this becuase it is the most effective way now.

Go ask the so called 1.03 god, Artfifex. He does that constantly and so does his friends.

Dark Begger
05-29-2002, 07:29 PM
ok, then let's look at it this way..if you think you play as much as I do. I attend university, and skip class constantly (because I go out too late at night am playing jk2 too late..and dont' wake up in time), I play..as in PLAY JK2, from 10AM - 4 PM, then I stop watch some tv, then play from 7PM-11PM... and I mean PLAY...I'm only 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, my computer does not shut off. Ok I'm a geek, but I don't have a job, I can play all I want. you just said you have a job. good for you. go do your work then, but I spend *estimating from figures above *10 hours a day PLAYING JK2, if you want to count online time I'm on 24 hours a day..double yours, so eat it.

And you can't get DSL or Cable? aww too bad, it's not our fault, don't complain about having 56k and not being able to counter a move SOMETIMES due to it, because frankly, if you can't change it, too friggen bad, live with it. Should I go..ohh..yeah..I'm sorry..you can't get DSL..I guess 1.03 was a good change then..because those 56kers who can't get a DSL or cable connection make up such a huge part of our community that we should cater to them. HA funny.

And your friend's cable must be ****ed up, because 99% of the time, you see DFA coming and can get out of the way SOO easily.

If you can kick most people's asses, then why did you complain about DFA?

Bah, I read back and we are on the same side..I forgot who the hell I was talking to here after reading back becaus I am for 1.02, and it seems you are too..I have no idea what the hell happened. 1.03 is crap, but complaining about backstab will push a 1.04 which is even more crap. So I say try to make Raven go backwards with increasing saber strength to normal attacks and hopefully things will balance out *no more ass fighters*

Datheus
05-29-2002, 10:59 PM
I dunno...I haven't been playing for long...nor have I been a part of this heated ...eh... "disscussion". But I'm wondering... Would Raven really make a move where it can't be countered in SOME way? I don't mean a saber block, per se, but more of a "kill-him-before-he-kills-you" To make a patch where someone can totally OWN a fight using a specific combo that can't be stopped in some fashion would seem to imply that Raven wrote this patch at 3 in the morning, running on nothing but caffiene and porno... Maybe, they could be that idiotic to do something where it was THAT un-balanced, but if it was a mistake, wouldn't they have patched it by now? They're MUST be something you can do to stop these specific attacks, whether it's run your butt off, or just blast them away with a rocket, I don't know, I have yet to get on a public server, flame me if you will...

It just seems foolish to me that they could throw the game "off balance" without knowing it/fixing it

Spider AL
05-30-2002, 03:01 PM
Well Datheus, it could well be that LEC simply doesn't want Raven to produce a new patch, because LEC would have to PAY them for doing it. Personally I believe that Raven were indeed rushing when they put the patch out, and I doubt whether they had any "master plan" when they released it, it was just ill-conceived and generally a bad idea. Oh well, it happened to T2, CS... pleh.

Orangina_Rouge
05-30-2002, 03:14 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Oh well, it happened to T2,

U mean the ML range and Heat Sign ??
It s far from breakin T2 as much as 1.03 broke JK 2 IMO :rolleyes:

Nathan Wind
05-30-2002, 03:22 PM
ugh, the fact that there is a complaint about "whoring" anything bothers me

C'jais
05-30-2002, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
ugh, the fact that there is a complaint about "whoring" anything bothers me

Whoring is a term, just as a newbie is a term.

The thing is, I always thought that it meant you were good at something and really owned people with it. In this part of the net, it means that you're an idiot and use the same move over and over to much dismay. Oh well.

Dark Begger
05-30-2002, 03:33 PM
mm...whoring..my ex girlfriend was a whore..damn she'd be good at JK2 with the backstab..HAHAHHA

Nathan Wind
05-30-2002, 03:40 PM
The thing is, I always thought that it meant you were good at something and really owned people with it

exactly

Dark Begger
05-30-2002, 03:43 PM
yes...the whoring term changed after a while didn't it? Now it's connotation is anyone using 1 move all the time. They don't have to be good or get kills to be 'whoring' anymore..haha...which is odd...

Nathan Wind
06-03-2002, 09:02 AM
my dream is to be a high class whore... like julia roberts

RamataKahn
06-03-2002, 12:38 PM
Only unskilled players were killed by the DFA move a lot. Only unskilled players are killed by backstabbing a lot now. Only the unskilled players had problems with the game before it was patched to make up for thier lack of skill. The unskilled players are the only ones who complain and whine the most and the loudest and evidently are the only ones Raven will listen to.

Nathan Wind
06-03-2002, 07:10 PM
i can kill alot more efficiently if i use backstab than if i dont

RamataKahn
06-03-2002, 07:15 PM
You must be fighting a lot of unskilled players, you sure the hell ain't fighting me.

Solo4114
06-05-2002, 01:43 AM
NEWS FLASH!!!

If you don't like it, CHANGE IT.

The source code is out. Start a mod. Make the ultimate version of JO. Who knows, maybe some ladder will pick it up. I used to play in a clan that played Q2 Weapons Factory competetively, so I know there are mod ladders out there.

Want more blocking? Add it! Want less blocking? Take it out! Want all hits to be insta-kills! Bump up the damage! Want to make all hits super-weak, but leave ONE move REALLY powerful? Go for it!

The options are wide open. I don't think we'll see another patch because 1.) LEC won't pay for it, and 2.) Raven has other stuff to do. They'll still offer support for the new SDK, but they won't be making a patch out of the goodness of their own hearts (not to mention checkbooks -- it'll cost 'em time and money).

Instead, they've given US the option to make our OWN patches. Yeah, you can't release it as widely, but hey, so what? It's better than nothing.

Why bother pissing and moaning about how the game was hella-neato-cool before or the game is super-king-kameiameia-awesome now and keep beating a dead (and by now, rotting) horse, when you can actually go out and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT??? If you HATE AND DESPISE all the WHINERS who RUINED your once proud and beautiful game, and think that 1.03 totally DESTROYED all fun in the universe, make a patch that you think will be fun.

If you think 1.03 is a good step in the right direction, but needs some tweaks, go make 'em.

Raven has cut out the middleman and passed the savings on to YOU.

Boreas
06-05-2002, 03:56 AM
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
raven did no testing.

i suspect that they will further destroy the game by hindering other moves that have a purpose.

backstab had a purpose in 1.02. it didnt kill immediately. raven needs to realize this as well.

In 1.02 you couldn't run backwards to backstab because sabers hurt more than a wiffle bat.

Vladimir_Berkov
06-05-2002, 09:38 AM
The 1.03 patch didn't lower the learning curve a bit, it lowered it ALL THE WAY.

Example.

I had been played JK2 for about a week almost continuously, fighting both online players and bots. I had mastered the moves pretty well, and knew how to win saber duels. One day I invited my sister to duel me on my home LAN. She had never played JK2 before, although she had played JK1 a long time ago, and had not played pretty much any computer game for over a year.

During the first duel, the score was 10-3 in my favor. I was perplexes because she had no idea WTF she was doing. What was happening was that the incredible amount of blocking very much reduced how much skill it took to stay alive, plus the reduced saber damage. Essentially, because my attacks were not effective, my sister, although unskilled, was alive enough to land some lucky blows. Of course, I still won, but the point is that a newbie player was able to win several rounds based purely on the fact that the game style had been made less based on skill, and more based on luck.

Father Time
06-05-2002, 09:44 AM
Agreed.

Can't someone make enhanced 1.02?