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Dark Begger
05-29-2002, 01:04 PM
HERE YOU GO RAVEN, CONGRATULATIONS ON A GOOD JOB DESTROYING THE GAME and LOSING YOUR SKILLED MEMBERS.

http://www.oculis.org/asc/guides/retirement.html

1.02 did not render the moves useless... DFA was powerfull, but NORMAL attacks were STRONG and NOT useless in 1.02. With your garbage you put out with 1.03, the game has been destroyed and saber battles are now pointless and weak unless you use backstab.

So I ask you this all nay sayers...why do you think all moves are useless and the backstab is so powerful?

Because of the complainers on this forum. Those who could not handle the damage from the heavy stance (although it was very slow) and yet did not complain about the medium stance (two hits from medium is death, two hits from heavy is death..at full health 100/25). Those who could not handle the DFA and decided to complain about that. Those who thought the lightsaber should be nothing more than 'over sized glowsticks' so you can whack eachother with every now and then. You all destroyed the game. Now it may be interesting at the beginning, while you look at the cool moves and can do 10 shots on a guy and have him not die (I don't understand why it is so interesting.but whatever..), but for the serious gamer, those who play competitively, the game has rendered into nothing more than a show of fancy lights.

Anyways, all of you who are happy with 1.03 must either be backstab spammers (which I have no beef against at the moment..I use backstab also, it's the only way to get to the top of ladders), or non competitive 'play for the hell of it' type of gamers. I ask you, why does Raven decide to cater to those gamers who will leave the community after a few months, rather that those who would have stayed here for years playing competitively? That is a question that I wish could be answered.

Anyways, farewell to Artifex, may he hopefully return when Rave decides to open their eyes.

MrCrusher
05-29-2002, 01:39 PM
Because of the complainers on this forum. ....... Those who could not handle the DFA and decided to complain about that. Those who thought the lightsaber should be nothing more than 'over sized glowsticks' so you can whack eachother with every now and then. You all destroyed the game. Now it may be interesting at the beginning, while you look at the cool moves and can do 10 shots on a guy and have him not die (I don't understand why it is so interesting.but whatever..), but for the serious gamer, those who play competitively, the game has rendered into nothing more than a show of fancy lights.

As I remember, most requests for change revolved around making multi-play saber combat more like single-play.

....and most of us play for fun, not competitively.

From my side of the fence I felt 1.02 was way under developed, thus I didn't spend much time with it.

Although not perfect 1.03 has far more to offer in terms of sabre combat, and I disagree, you can dispatch an opponent quickly with a few well placed hits., but you've got to be good. You just can't spam uber attacks the way you could in 1.02.

Epyon9283
05-29-2002, 01:44 PM
WHen the hell is the bitching going to stop? GET OVER IT! ITS JUST A GOD DAMN GAME!

Smitty
05-29-2002, 01:49 PM
Oh No! Not 1.03! Not that....


Mommy, my pu??y hurts! Mommy!


How will I ever acheive the 5th level of Jedi Masterhood with such a patch? My life is over and no longer worth living!

Mommy!!!!!!!


I say, stop playing the game, and leave the boards (the most important part).

Mallory Ringess
05-29-2002, 01:49 PM
Originally posted by MrCrusher


Although not perfect 1.03 has far more to offer in terms of sabre combat, and I disagree, you can dispatch an opponent quickly with a few well placed hits., but you've got to be good. You just can't spam uber attacks the way you could in 1.02.

Where you been playing?
I have almost completely given up on FFA and FF duels cos almost everyone spams the pull/backstab/backsweep moves. AAlso in 1.03 the Dark side has been nerfed to the point of being useless. If you want to survive in 1.03 FFA you MUST have Absorb.

dar3d3vil
05-29-2002, 01:52 PM
Nowhere does it mention that Artifex finally played a good player you could easily defeat him and not use back stab at all. All the guy did was play at a much faster speed\ while artifex spammed the heavy backstab.

Artifex was stunned that someone could kill him, let alone not even using back stab. In fact he indicated that this person was the first person to kill him without using back stab.

Unfortunately this person had only started playing online/duels about 2 weeks ago now. And his embarrassment of Arifex came after about a week of playing.

Arifex was a frequent poster on this forum before these duels and since then he has been very quiet. I am not surprised he is done with the game but he could have been more honest about his reasons. He finally meets someone who is a challenge and then quits because "..... this game actually becomes more boring the better you get at it."

He meets someone who he can not pull combo against and then he says it is "boring" . He should have been posting how he had seen how this game is played at a higher level than he had ever seen before, instead he would rather feed into the Raven-hating. It is easier to accuse them of making a bad game then to admit is own shortcomings.

Dark Begger
05-29-2002, 02:12 PM
Go ahead and flame me, I don't care, the truth is the truth, I did not name anyone, and if you took offence, then you believe what I say is true. So thank you.

And secondly, a few well placed hits? lol, ok, come play me on a FF 1v1 duel server and DON'T I repeat DON'T use backstab/sweep. Use those 'moves' that are so great in the game right now.

Oh and 1.02 was not underdeveloped. If you say people were getting lucky hits off you, then obviously you weren't good enough to know how far you needed to be to dodge. The sense of danger in 1.02 during light saber combat is much graeter. ALso, no one abused backstab because if you had your back turned for a SECOND, you would die.like you should.

And which uber attacks are you talking about in 1.02? DFA? That was easily countered, more so than backstab. There was no 'uber' saber move in 1.02, and if you think there was, then you did not take the time to find how to crack it.

And even if Artifex lost ONCE...guess what, he lost ONCE...you cannot say he is unskilled for ONE loss, we all lose from time to time.

And it is true, maybe 60% play for fun and 40% play competitively..I would guess..not valid, but I would guess this, since there are more than 4 ladders with JK2, and each of them holds about 200 if not more members.

The thing is, fo that 60%, half of them will leave since they finished the game and it got boring for them, like any other game that grows old, people leave, and those are the ones that play for fun, not the ones that play competitively.

I don't know, I do not like the patch, but I play it, and do quite well, but I feel that sabering has been toned down quite a bit, and in the process made a much LARGER distinction between special moves and normal attacks.

Nathan Wind
05-29-2002, 02:42 PM
without artifex, i am done with this game. he was THE most qualified person in the community to make any suggestions or complaints. even with people who seemingly agree with me, i still feel that many of them have questionable credibility when it comes to their opinions about what was wrong/right with this game.

i mastered every aspect of the game in version 1.02. with the patch, i felt that the variety and depth that i loved in the game was divided in half and then again. i played the game 5 hours the day i got 1.03, then promptly removed the game from my computer.

i was so sure that raven would come out with another patch soon after that, to quickly restore all of the futures and depth that they rendered impotent in 1.03. my biggest concern was that it would be a rushed job and a little too sloppy. i came on this forum that day to hopefully see that there were people on this forum that cared and knew enough about this game to prod raven along in the right direction.

i was sadly mistaken. the majority of the people on this forum are fan boys who are frankly full of ****. the few people who knew what they were talking about sounded exactly like the majority of people who didnt, none of which had any credibility. it took a special eye to wade through the hot air. of those people who knew what they were talking about, 3, only 2 were articulate enough to persuade anybody, and only 1 had the website to back up his claims.

with the news that artifex is retiring, i feel that this is a lost cause.

i now have been playing deus ex and going to this forum. soon, this game will only be a bad memory. the game that was the ultimate realization of my favorite series. now its that game that was great, vandalized and forgotten.

ive already thrown in the towel as well, but i had hope. now, my forum days are numbered.

Dark Begger
05-29-2002, 02:52 PM
Nathan Wind, I agree with you, Artifex's posts had substance and reason backing up all of his accusations.

I just hope that our prior arguements did not affect your view of my credibility. I try to the best of my ability to ensure I back up and give reason to any accusations I make in this game. There are times when I do lose control, due to a flame directed at me, which I regret doing, but it happens.

You will for sure get some flame posts at you, so I would like to first of all thank you for trying to help change the minds of the many out there who do not think as we do. There are a lot more patch 1.03 lovers on here, than there are on the ladder forums, which suggests that the real competitive players who take the game seriously (maybe too seriously to most of you, but seriously nonetheless) dislike this patch (not saying all, but most), and the die hard starwars fans (fans of SW, but not serious about JK2) are here posting how 1.03 is so good. I believe there is still a good number of 1.02 favoring players on these forums, but they are now trying to figure out 1.03, rather than complaining like the people on here (and if you want, than sure, I'm a complainer too.) There is no changing their minds, as there is no changing ours, which is sad but true...

I hope Raven reads most of these posts, and takes under consideration BOTH sides of the patch arguement, and come to a happy medium..if possible.

Once again Nathan, I hope I have not discouraged you from the future of this game.

MrCrusher
05-29-2002, 02:54 PM
I have almost completely given up on FFA and FF duels cos almost everyone spams the pull/backstab/backsweep moves. AAlso in 1.03 the Dark side has been nerfed to the point of being useless. If you want to survive in 1.03 FFA you MUST have Absorb.

I am speaking in terms of sabre combat. I do not play with force powers due to their exploits and spamming......... Force could use some fixing. (unfortunatly fixing can also lead to nerfing :( )They should be balanced to support and supplement the sabre only.

NF Sabre dueling is well balanced in my opion. No one method rules. You just can't "spam" when fighting pure sabre, thus you have to be an all around better player than your opponent to win cosistently.

I play on FFA (and Team FFA) Dueling servers only (1on1, 2on2 etc.).... I don't like the wait on regular duel servers.

Dark Begger
05-29-2002, 03:02 PM
Our clan has a nf Duel server, and let nme tell you, during 1.02, the most variety was present. It started with the typical heavy user, then medium users started becoming the majority, and in the end, it was pretty much half medium, half heavy. and the wins were 50/50. Every move was important and quite potent in 1.02, as 1.03 focuses more on moving around the opponent rather than the saber move. ( you get what I mean? Instead of trying to swing your saber a certain direction..it's more like..find away around the guy (due to the high blocking %) and hit him from behind..or hit him mid swing (which was also a good strategy against heavy users in 1.02). I think the heightend blockng % was a good idea..but they should not have lowered saber damage then.

Smitty
05-29-2002, 03:05 PM
:violin:

Oh No! Not 1.03! Not that....


Mommy, my pu??y hurts! Mommy!


How will I ever acheive the 5th level of Jedi Masterhood with such a patch? My life is over and no longer worth living!

Mommy!!!!!!!

Without Artifex how can I go on, he was my hero. I model my life on him. What should I do?

I say, stop playing the game, and leave the boards (the most important part).

BigHairyWookie
05-29-2002, 03:15 PM
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
without artifex, i am done with this game. my forum days are numbered.



WOOHOO!!!


186 posts about why I hate 1.03 comes to a close. What a loss for us all. :rolleyes:

ArtifeX
05-29-2002, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by dar3d3vil
Nowhere does it mention that Artifex finally played a good player you could easily defeat him and not use back stab at all. All the guy did was play at a much faster speed\ while artifex spammed the heavy backstab.

Artifex was stunned that someone could kill him, let alone not even using back stab. In fact he indicated that this person was the first person to kill him without using back stab.

Unfortunately this person had only started playing online/duels about 2 weeks ago now. And his embarrassment of Arifex came after about a week of playing.

Arifex was a frequent poster on this forum before these duels and since then he has been very quiet. I am not surprised he is done with the game but he could have been more honest about his reasons. He finally meets someone who is a challenge and then quits because "..... this game actually becomes more boring the better you get at it."

He meets someone who he can not pull combo against and then he says it is "boring" . He should have been posting how he had seen how this game is played at a higher level than he had ever seen before, instead he would rather feed into the Raven-hating. It is easier to accuse them of making a bad game then to admit is own shortcomings.

The person you are referring to was Alizee, but he's not the only person that I've lost to recently. eternaL is also a top-notch player who I traded frags back and forth with. There's one or two others I can recall losing to a time or two, but these guys were the only ones who could beat me with any regularity.

eternaL was my equal with the pull/backstab tactic--we tended to come out even over the course of several rounds. Alizee took me by surprise the first time I played him by using the Saber Throw/Pull combo, which I've mentioned before. He's also got a killer Saber Throw/Pull/Kick script bound to one of his keys and manages to pull it off with great regularity.

I actually loved getting beaten--I've always said that. Getting beaten helps you increase your skill level. You don't learn anything beating up on the unskilled masses. I learned to use Alizee's combo and picked up a few of eternaL's favorite moves too.

What led me to retire was what I learned playing with these two: extremely high-skill matches just come down to Saber Throw/Pull combos. At least when playing on a slightly lower level with Pull/Backstab as the main weapon you had to worry about managing your force power and your use of Absorb, but Saber Throw/Pull ignores even Absorb at close range, and is therefore a more effective weapon.

Duels like that should be full of different wild moves and great risk-taking in order to open up the opponent. Instead, we just end up circling each other and hoping to land a saber throw/Pull.

Oh, and something you neglected to mention: Alizee kept getting beaten by others so that he didn't last through the rotation in order to face me again. One more: I seem to remember wiping the floor with everyone else--including you. I ended that map with a record of 15/1.

GooglyMoogly
05-29-2002, 03:47 PM
Everyone talks about variety in 1.02, in my opinion it was simply not true. Rememeber in 1.02 when you could stand there and just hit attack and you would get three different swings?. If you ask me this made the game a WHOLE lot more random.

For those of you that can't cut it without whoring specials, I feel sorry for you. I've spent some time working on different combos and moves and find that 1.03 involves a lot more strategy and skill. In 1.02 I could simply mash buttons and get a decent amount of kills, now I have to work at it and it is so much more satisfying.

Artifex, as well spoken as he was, ruined the game for himself. He sold out to the status quo and limited his own development by placing the desire to win over the desire to play well and have fun. His site did have some good info about saber fighting (mostly just specials), but in comparison to what you can actually do with a saber he left a lot out.

This is exactly what so many people have been saying for a while..."sooner or later the lamers will get sick of the same old same old and leave"..well it has begun and the game will be much better for it.

Heres the key..if you can play the game and be happy whether you get 20 kills or 1 kill then it will hold its appeal for a long time, if not, then I guess you'll follow Artifex out the door.

Repeater
05-29-2002, 03:52 PM
thought you were leaving? ;)

I don't agree with a lot of what you say, but on most points you DO have the most (published) research. I respect that, and the work you put into it, but i don't like some of things you say, the way you say em, and you really don't care what i have to say, do you? ;)

Anyway, take it easy, enjoy your next game, and turn off the lights when you leave....oh wait, there's still a lot of us left....nevermind.

be young, have fun, drink 'product-placement'

Aegis
05-29-2002, 03:58 PM
OMG! Artifex leaves the community, and people think it's some massive exodus? What is up with that. He is/was a play, just like myself, or Nathan, or Beggar. Was he any better then us? No, he was merely more aware. Personally, I have read his guide, and almost fell of my chair laughing at some of the absurd tactics mentioned. You can't define who to listen to, and who not to by how well they use pull/backstab. Why not listen to me? I can do that, and with great success, if I wished to, but contrary to his little guide (that's apparently the best one out there :rolleyes: ), I don't use it. I take on people who do, and usually come out on top. Does this mean I don't pull, or use the backstab occasionally? No, it just means I don't rely on them to kill the person. If there is oppertunity, then I'll use it. Also, all this bs about not being able to win duels without using the special moves is just obscene. Almost every duel I take part in (both private, and on duel servers), the outcome is usually not defined by how well one can backstab, as it has been mentioned so often by these "experts". Obviously, people that see this are playing on servers that are rampant with "assfighters", and pull/backstabbers. Instead of practicing what you preach, most of you tend to follow suit, and use the same techniques.

Anyway, I'm moving into a bit of a rant, that is probably more suited to another thread, but I'm just trying to get across the fact that Artifex leaving isn't the end of the online community, nor is he the be all end all of what is skillful, and what is not.

One last thing, I am more than willing to back up my rant in game. I play under the name of Anduin, and usually frequent KnighHawks server, or the Red Hand FFA. A little of both, one offers FF, while the other is saber only, NF.

ArmchairAthlete
05-29-2002, 04:10 PM
JUST A GODDAM GAME ... that Raven totally f*(*#@ed up.

Once again thanks for ruining it with your "patch" as best you could. 1.02 was far better than this filth. I dunno why I'm even on these boards, connection being too crappy to play WC3 without discing i guess.

Dark Begger
05-29-2002, 04:15 PM
Actually, 1.02 wasn't just random swinging, if you could kill people like that, then it is obvious you were playing on a less skilled server. I know this sounds liek bragging, but this is not bragging about me. The server that I play on usually during 1.02 was the SofD NF Duel server, and there was a wide spread of regular winners, and it ended up that everyone (the regulars i mean) would have their win, and the matches were even. My friend *ISofDI-Jade* was on a slump for a bit on that server (1 day actually) so she decided to go find other servers to boost her confidence on. 15 minutes later she came back to the SofD server bringing back scores of 10-0, 10-1, and 10-0. There are a lot of servers out there where since they are new, the players are new and are getting accustomed to the game and are therefore easier to kill. I guarantee if you came to the SofD server (during 1.02) your 'random' swinging would not produce ANY decent kills.

In 1.03, I noticed that using light saber and holding down the button and being aggressive is more effective (but not skillful and useless against more skilled players whcih I am considering you are). As for now, if you want to win (and I play to win..I'm sorry..to me, winning is fun...please don't flame me on this) you pretty much have to use pull/backstab. I've never tried using the throw/pull since i play no nF servers, but once again.. that's 2 moves..and only two moves that would be effective. Normal saber attacks have just lost meaning and use. I do not ass fight, but, my main tactic (and I don't know who else does this) is to face the opponent..saber for a bit and get small shots of taking 20 hp off (20 hp with a saber hit..what a laugh), then they usually expect the same type of style throughout. I then jump forward calculating to land about 1-2 meters infront of the opponent, and of course, knowing I will not reach him he will come forward as I do this to hit me, but in mid air I just turn around (I guess a higher mouse sensitivity would be needed) and hold back and right when I land push attack and guess what? he walks right into it. This works 99% of the time. So Back stab is not useless in nF duel servers, as it can be used in different cases to prove lethal. But the main thing is, the way to win is to do the backstab/sweep. Regular saber attacks just don't do enough damage.

Now in 1.02, 1 heavy swing took away 100 hp. not as strong as backstab or DFA, but strong enough to use as a skill.

Medium swings hit 65, again, not as strong as heavy or backstab, but still, 2 hits and their dead, so it is also useful.

Light lunge hits about 45, and it too was useful as 3 shots would end it. And these are just regular SWINGS..no specials. And if you noticed, the only special that was abused was DFA (1.02 DFA was much easier to defend against then backstab/sweep in 1.03). Why was there no backstabbing and sweeping? because with your back open for punishment, you'd be dead before you could get it off. right now in 1.03, you can withstand 3 shots from the medium, and therefore can pull the backstab/sweep off with easy and not be scared of dying (unless you waited until you had 2 health to go in and do this). So how are the normal swings in 1.03 helping in killing? Unless yoru opponent does not do backstab/sweep, then you are doomed against any skillful (yes, there are good backstab/sweepers..who can do it consistantly and predict movement) backstab/sweepers.

And as for taking out backstab/sweep, well then there will be another 1 hit move exploited...no other 1 hit move? there will be hacks invented to give upper hands. A lot of ppeople are greedy to win, just look at how big the counter-strike (or should I say cheater-strike) situation got. I can tell you almost ALL servers had a hacker on it in CS.

So it's up to you, would you rather have 1 hit kilsl which you can do and are dfendable and counterable, or would you rather have hacks to make a substitute for this?

I think no one can persuade anyone on here..that's why I sadi we need a happy medium, to make saber fighting more fun and visually stunning, yet keeping the sense of danger during each encounter.

I think they should keep the blocking system, it's great, the only reason people are complaining about it is because when you get through you do minimal damage.

They should raise saber damage to almost the same as 1.02, maybe a little weaker (medium can still kill in 2), heavy side swing can still kill in 2, etc etc...

this way, when ass fighters come, you can chop them twice before they can get a backstab off on you, and they die. This would reduce backstabbers, keep duels lenghty (due to the blocking), and stay visually stunning.

Well just my opinions, which most of the people on here will dislike except for some who understand what I am saying. I feel most people flame my posts just because they don't like me..maybe it was my first post, or maybe ti was some of my flames at others...but please, try to think about this and if you don't agree, come back with something more than a "you stupid n00b, you don't know what your'e takling about, you didn't practice enough, blah blah blah." Partly because this is immature, and yes I've done it, but doesn't mean it's not immature, and also because i've been playing 2 months of 1.02 and 4 weeks (almost..it's been almost out 4 weeks...) on 1.03, and noticed these things. I purely duel, rarely CTF or FFA, and so I concentrate no the dueling aspect of the game.

PsYk0
05-29-2002, 04:20 PM
Anyways, all of you who are happy with 1.03 must either be backstab spammers (which I have no beef against at the moment..I use backstab also, it's the only way to get to the top of ladders), or non competitive 'play for the hell of it' type of gamers.


That's not true.
I'm one of the top 10 players on the Darkside Duel servers ( http://www.darkstats.com/servers.asp?id=1 ) and hardly ever use the backstab. In all truthfulness, *MOST* of my kills are from well timed swings and not special moves. I'm sure the other good players on Darkside will tell you the same.

I wasn't a big fan of 1.03 at first but played it out and changed my strategy a little. I noticed that I was too busy comparing the 2 versions instead of keeping an open mind and working with it. After a while it kinda grew on me and felt more comfortable. Yeah, those one hit kills suck but you know what? If you go into a game anticipating someone doing it, then I guarantee that it won't happen as often to you and you'll actually get better at the counter moves to it.

If you have a hard time believing me or want to see first hand, Darkside Duel Server #1 is my playground.

EDIT: BTW, they are TRUE NF servers. Not even saber throws. ALL SABER BABY!

Dark Begger
05-29-2002, 07:07 PM
The SofD duel server is also no saber throw, since it is truly no force...anyways, if you do not do the backstab, good for you, do the rest of the people in darkside abuse backstab?

DannyJAllTheWay
05-29-2002, 07:18 PM
It's a game... :(

MrCrusher
05-29-2002, 07:26 PM
.They should raise saber damage to almost the same as 1.02, maybe a little weaker (medium can still kill in 2), heavy side swing can still kill in 2, etc etc...

this way, when ass fighters come, you can chop them twice before they can get a backstab off on you, and they die. This would reduce backstabbers,

Dark,

If your getting abused by backstabers in NF 1on1 duels then you need to practice some counters and evasion....

Backstab is well balanced and hard to do against a decent player when NF dueling 1on1.

It is in a cluster fluck of FFA or with force that backstab is exploitable

Dark Begger
05-29-2002, 07:31 PM
what are you talknig about Crusher??? have you read this post? I use backstab....ugh...

PsYk0
05-29-2002, 07:38 PM
Originally posted by Dark Begger
The SofD duel server is also no saber throw, since it is truly no force...anyways, if you do not do the backstab, good for you, do the rest of the people in darkside abuse backstab?

Yeah, people use it and some people try to abuse it. The people that try to abuse it usually get burned and don't last long on the servers. And think about this, do you put yourself in a position to be backstabbed?

I have to admit though, I have been practicing using the backstab after winning saber locks. So far I've probably iced 2 people with it out of, maybe, 12 attempts. One of the reasons I've been practicing it is because it looks good and it's almost a sure kill. And if I miss, there is no counter when the other guy is lying on the ground. But I'm not going to spam the move because, as it's been proven, it CAN be countered (if you expect it) and countered well.

You know what I find *really* funny? These guys that join and try to assfight but not giving them the satisfaction of being in their way. When they realize their tactics aren't working, they usually panic and become very easy targets. Truly a pathetic sight.

Vestril
05-30-2002, 12:22 AM
Thank goodness I don't have the burden of skill. I only ever use finishers on accident, which obviously hampers my game playing ability. I could, obviously, learn these attacks, they're not very hard, but I would rather devote my time to developing skilled attacks and parries, attacks that require expert timing in a variety of situations. I am utterly certain that I will not win any tournemants that way. Utterly. I am also utterly certain that I won't quit playing because I'm bored of winning the same way again and again and again.

I have, in the last few days, met two people that could kill me as easily as I could kill them, while they used nothing but finishers. This has caused me to expand my game playing ability and use heavy stance as well as medium. This shift has caused a noticeable drop in my current kill ratios, but I suspect that in the end I'll only improve.

Artifex's intelligent and insightful discourses on this game will be missed. I suspect, however, that his gameplay will not be.

Aylnon
05-30-2002, 02:24 AM
Dark Begger, I know I am thinking of joining with your clan, and I understand the respect that is meant to go with it, but I must say this. You are taking this far too seriously. You seem to make it out to be a professional sport. It is naught but a game.

Now, the attacks that were nerfed:

Death From Above (DFA) - This move was far too overused, either by newbies who only wished to win without the need to practice, or by experienced DFA spammers who had learned how to run away and turn back at the last moment for a quick DFA attack. You say the game was ruined? By nerfing this attack, Raven effectively removed the DFA spammers, stopping those long and tedious, boring matches where observers would be stuck for minutes on end just watching two people take a few heavy swings at each other and every now and then DFA each other. By nerfing it, people are forced to use other attacks. DFA has its uses, but they are limited, and limited well. Now observers watch far more fast paced matches with techniques that involve blocking, dodging, counter attacking. Not just step away, DFA, step away, DFA, etc.

Medium Stance - Many people complained that Medium stance's ability to spin like a top the same as Light stance should have been left in. They are wrong. Medium is not a cork screw style of combat, and never was. Now it is a style based on timed, and accurate swings. It has a very well designed range, and the speed was toned down to a far more realistic level. In 1.02 it was the same as Light stance, with a bit more damage. Now it is unique, apart from both Light and Heavy. It is balanced. For those who say Light stance is too effective now, just spinning and killing Medium, what do you think some players did in 1.02. Spun like a top using Medium stance. Now, I can defeat almost any cork screw fighter with Medium. Just use it's extended range. Technique.

Heavy Stance - The damage on this attack was toned down, and I agree perhaps too far. But, it gained the ability to link swings. Alter the angle of attack by 45degrees and you can you chain two swings together. It effectivly doubles it's potential. I do think the damage of this stance could be raised again, however. It is ineffectual at the moment, but has its rare moments.

Now for the attacks that were hyped:

Backattacks - These were surverely amped up, and indeed, far too much. The new curse of the force dueler is to be pulled down or pushed, and then backstabbed. It can easily be avoided with absorb, but that limits your force powers considerably, as does pumping both push and pull to gain an immunity. Also, those players who use rapid-fire mice, and I know they exist, are a backstab threat, as once locked, they can hurl any normal clicker to the ground in seconds, then backstab them. Raven needs to tone down the level of damage, by about 50%, and increase their ability to penetrate defenses, and they can still be blocked.

This is my opinion. Any of the attacks that were nerfed were nerfed effectively. All Raven needs to fix are the backattacks. Increase defense penetration, decrease damage, and perhaps eliminate their ability to hit fallen foes. Leave normal attacks able to hit them, but the backstabs/sweeps should have a raised height, so they cannot hit foes on the ground.

That is my opinion. I will be happy to take any debates.

Vestril
05-30-2002, 03:36 AM
Death From Above (DFA) - This move was far too overused, either by newbies who only wished to win without the need to practice, or by experienced DFA spammers who had learned how to run away and turn back at the last moment for a quick DFA attack. You say the game was ruined? By nerfing this attack, Raven effectively removed the DFA spammers, stopping those long and tedious, boring matches where observers would be stuck for minutes on end just watching two people take a few heavy swings at each other and every now and then DFA each other. By nerfing it, people are forced to use other attacks. DFA has its uses, but they are limited, and limited well. Now observers watch far more fast paced matches with techniques that involve blocking, dodging, counter attacking. Not just step away, DFA, step away, DFA, etc.

It was bugged, and there weren't many sustained whiners. Most of the people that complained were people who came on angry after getting DFA'd 10 times. They were angry, they got their anger out, then they learned and adapted. This is one of the useful aspects of a forum, it's a good venting ground.

As I've said before, I loved DFA, but I never used it. I just loeved it because people would use it and I could get a free hit. It was hard with the skilled ones, because of the bugginess, so I dreamed of the day when they would fix the bugs, and I could own DFA users so easily. Then they fixed the big and nerfed it, so few people use DFA--and for good reason, it's remarkably easy to hit someone who DFA's, and remarkably hard to use it. You can even block it sometimes so if the person manages the incredible task of landing an on target hit, they may not even get the kill!! It's absurd, bring back the useful DFA, so I can kill the spammers.

It won't even be boring because the lack of bugginess will still make people who use it easy targets, it's just that it will be a competitive move for those with timing and accuracy, if un-nerfed, which would be nice.

Medium Stance - Many people complained that Medium stance's ability to spin like a top the same as Light stance should have been left in. They are wrong. Medium is not a cork screw style of combat, and never was. Now it is a style based on timed, and accurate swings. It has a very well designed range, and the speed was toned down to a far more realistic level. In 1.02 it was the same as Light stance, with a bit more damage. Now it is unique, apart from both Light and Heavy. It is balanced. For those who say Light stance is too effective now, just spinning and killing Medium, what do you think some players did in 1.02. Spun like a top using Medium stance. Now, I can defeat almost any cork screw fighter with Medium. Just use it's extended range. Technique.

The same as light stance with more damage? Who are you trying to kid?? You couldn't spin like a top in any stance with 1.02, the hit detection was buggy so a half decently timed medium swipe would lop off 40 or 50 health. In 1.02 spinning like a top in any stance was stupid and useless. Blue was just pathetic, I think I was beaten once by a light stancer out of what had to have been hundreds of duels.

I personally like that they mostly removed the spins from medium, but only because the spins were pointless, they didn't add any damage and they left you exposed for an attack..

As to your suggestion that we use medium style to take on light style, I suppse that's nice if you want to take a loooong time with it. That spinning makes it so that you have an extremely high chance of making contact with their lightsaber, making it extremely defensible to yellow stance. Red Stance, on the other hand, powers through and connects, taking the fight right out of the little buggers. My average duel time went wayyy down after I learned to use Heavy on the Light people.

Heavy Stance - The damage on this attack was toned down, and I agree perhaps too far. But, it gained the ability to link swings. Alter the angle of attack by 45degrees and you can you chain two swings together. It effectivly doubles it's potential. I do think the damage of this stance could be raised again, however. It is ineffectual at the moment, but has its rare moments.

Pshawww, don't be absurd, see above. I agree that Heavy on heavy is stupid, as is heavy on medium, but heavy on light is very effective.

Backattacks - These were surverely amped up, and indeed, far too much. The new curse of the force dueler is to be pulled down or pushed, and then backstabbed. It can easily be avoided with absorb, but that limits your force powers considerably, as does pumping both push and pull to gain an immunity. Also, those players who use rapid-fire mice, and I know they exist, are a backstab threat, as once locked, they can hurl any normal clicker to the ground in seconds, then backstab them. Raven needs to tone down the level of damage, by about 50%, and increase their ability to penetrate defenses, and they can still be blocked.

No...they weren't amped up, they just weren't nerfed. Probably thanks to an oversight.

As to your suggestion that pull/backstab is 'easily avoidable' thanks to Absorb...meh, I'm the wrong person to argue the point, but the few times I have tried this, it's been obvious to me that I had to end the match fast, before I ran out of Force power=--ie use pull/backstab myself, or run away while I let my Force regrow. To be honest this makes it a limiting factor to games. Of course, the only FF server I really play on is Artifex's, and that very rarely and for short times only, so I can't comment too much...

toolboi
05-30-2002, 03:56 AM
I like aspects of 103 a lot. I like the way yellow "feels" more (less spins) and I like red a LOT more (slower, and combos. Red combos are truely deadly), however the parry system...

The parry system is cool in SP because we have GREAT collision detection, and no lag. In MP we get lag and the $h!tty collision detection (maybe this is caused by lag, I dont know, all I know is that its $h!tty) and so it adds even more guess work into the game.

Con. Snake
05-30-2002, 04:04 AM
Originally posted by Dark Begger
Bitch, Bitch, Whine, Whine, Cry.Heres a quarter, call someone who gives a ****.

Ferox
05-30-2002, 04:08 AM
rofl i love these guys like artifex who act like martyrs and waste webspace with this big longwinded reasons why they are leaving the game.


look at me i need attention. this is why this sucks bla bla.

Aegis
05-30-2002, 01:10 PM
Originally posted by Ferox
rofl i love these guys like artifex who act like martyrs and waste webspace with this big longwinded reasons why they are leaving the game.


look at me i need attention. this is why this sucks bla bla. Well said Ferox.

Dark Begger
05-30-2002, 01:24 PM
Con Snake, thanks for the flame...
oh by the way, thanks for the quarter, It'll give me a good night with your mom, unless she decided to raise her prices.


Anyways...in 1.02, DFA may have been spammed, but there will always be an exploited move where a strategic FPS game is concerned. Just look at counter-strike and the AWP...but the makers of CS did not decide to rid the game of the AWP nor did the nerf it. And people still play the game. It has been out for how long now?

Anyways, DFA is easily avoidable, and if they had just fixed the bugs and nothing else, it would still be potent (aganst assfighters too..) but can't get lucky kills where you turn on the ground and hit. yeah.

C'jais
05-30-2002, 02:42 PM
Originally posted by Dark Begger
Con Snake, thanks for the flame...
oh by the way, thanks for the quarter, It'll give me a good night with your mom, unless she decided to raise her prices.


I could post something very mean here, but instead i will just quote your post and let it stand as a bad example. I like thinking well of people, you should try it. Perhaps we could all make this forum a bit less more hostile, it certainly can't get any more hateful than it is now...

As for the patch, I say that the pro 1.02 are trying to glorify the "old game". It wasn't perfect. You hardly fought with lightsabers, it was more like the pathetic saber fights in jk1. How awful. It might have been more "balanced" whatever you mean by that, but it wasn't starwars. It was like you were wielding instant kill - jousting lances. Raven tried hard to make a starwars game, but they failed at first. They did better second time around.
I'm not saying the patch is a godsend or perfect, but i'm saying they're trying to fix what was broken at first.

Adapt or get lost. My bet is that most of these "competetive" players are simply returning from that counterstrike thingie... They don't care about the universe or about how the developer envisioned the(ir) game.

Orangina_Rouge
05-30-2002, 02:53 PM
Originally posted by cjais


As for the patch, I say that the pro 1.02 are trying to glorify the "old game". It wasn't perfect. You hardly fought with lightsabers, it was more like the pathetic saber fights in jk1. How awful. It might have been more "balanced" whatever you mean by that, but it wasn't starwars. It was like you were wielding instant kill - jousting lances. Raven tried hard to make a starwars game, but they failed at first. They did better second time around.
I'm not saying the patch is a godsend or perfect, but i'm saying they're trying to fix what was broken at first.

Adapt or get lost. My bet is that most of these "competetive" players are simply returning from that counterstrike thingie... They don't care about the universe or about how the developer envisioned the(ir) game.

Raven did not have a "Vision" for the game ...they just gave the constant 1.02 noob whiners what they wanted
U could block in 1.02 contrary to what u think and it recquired SKILL ...now whatever u do u block most of the time and it makes saber fights totally random
It s also the origin of the Backstab exploit since it s the only move able to break the GODLY noob guard

So actually play the game with skilled opponents before saying they cme up better the second time ...and please don t say another dumb thing with the so-called "Star Wars Vision" ( another fan of TPM saber duel ....man i hate them )

Dark Begger
05-30-2002, 02:56 PM
what utter crap. cjais, you weren't even here for 1.02, so you do not know what's going on. 1.03 was MADE for the complaints, people came on here and complained (as any good would have their complainers) and for some reason Raven CATERED to them. I do not know what the hell you are talking about the 'vision'. Raven's 'vision' came out as 1.02. If anything, the complainers are trying to CHANGE Raven's 'vision' into what THEY want. Please don't argue about something you know nothing about.

Dark Begger
05-30-2002, 03:00 PM
oh and cjais, it's funny how you can 'know all about 1.02' and how to saber when you barely played it. Talk about criticizing a game without even getting to know the actual depth to it. I've played 1.02 AND 1.03 and know them in detail, I still win in both, and continue to play on ladders. That's why I am commenting on which style is better. How can YOU comment on it when you knew NOTHING about 1.02 saber fighting? I find you're just portraying the perfect example of a n00b whiner who does not take the time to learn all the details of the game.

You actively complain about Raven 'failing' to make it in pre patch. how would you know? god, you keep bashing down 1.02 with no back up for yourself, you know nothing about 1.02.

I would think a company, like Raven, would make a game as close to their 'vision' as possible in the initial release. They are not trying to make it closer to their vision, they have to change things because people complain, so they have to steer AWAY from their vision.

You have no basis to say Raven failed, nor do you have any basis to say 1.02 sabering was worse than 1.03. So please, just don't bother trying to argue this.

Dark Begger
05-30-2002, 03:16 PM
cjais, please, I would want you to continue arguing and trying to persuade me, but I just can't find any reason to take what you say seriously.

Please answer this question, with your limited experience on 1.02, why should we listen to your comparisons between 1.02 and 1.03? That's like, having a counter-strike player who has never played global ops compare the two games, even though he knows nothing about one of them?

Count Beefstew
05-30-2002, 10:12 PM
Dark Begger is correct.

H-street
05-31-2002, 03:25 AM
Did no one read teh latest plan file from the JK2 team?

if you like 1.02 sabre blocking you can turn it on with a simple cvar in your server setup.

Wow everyone complains about 1.03's sabre blocking but there is a variable to turn it off..

hehehe

does no one read anymore




2. For those of you unhappy with the increased
saber blocking in CTF and FFA modes in the 1.03
patch for Jedi Outcast, you can turn off the
changes by setting the CVAR g_saberTraceSaberFirst
to "0" in your server configs. Setting this
to "1" = More Blocking, "0" = Less Blocking. It
defaults to "1" in 1.03.



so if you are b1tching and running a server, turn it off.. if you are b1tching and not running a server.. well either run your own server or stop bi1tching.

personally i enjoy the 1.03 sabre more, backstabbing and all ( i guess i'm just a little more easy going than the average joe).

Con. Snake
05-31-2002, 03:33 AM
Originally posted by Dark Begger
Con Snake, thanks for the flame...
oh by the way, thanks for the quarter, It'll give me a good night with your mom, unless she decided to raise her prices. Have fun.

Nathan Wind
05-31-2002, 03:50 AM
ugh. you now threads are broken when flames enter "your mom" territory. sorry begger

Vagabond
05-31-2002, 12:40 PM
Okay, here's the deal:

1. Prior to 1.03, DFA had far too large of a hit box. One could die from an attack that was nowhere near you. This bug has been fixed in 1.03.

2. The saber combat was more deadly prior to 1.03, which I personally preferred. But hey, we're talking about personal opinions here, not universal truths.

3. Is there truth in the statements describing how the game gets boring once you learn and reuse a few winning combinations over and over? Absolutely. Especially since there are so few of them in Jedi Outcast. Conversely, the original Jedi Knight: MotS had several winning combinations and counters - that game was brilliantly balanced, providing nearly limitless replayability.

4. Concerning multiplayer, the weapons, force powers, and gameplay mechanics aren't balanced like they should be. Further, these attributes continued to be tweaked with each patch. With each new patch everyone literally had to "unlearn what you have learned", and start all over again, which can frustrating for some. Conversely, the original Jedi Knight: MotS didn't have a single patch, because great care and delibaration was taken to make sure it was balanced before it was released. Raven did not have that luxury, and were under heavy pressure to release by the end of March.

5. My overall, personal assessment of Jedi Outcast multiplayer? It's a good game, no doubt about it. It looks great, and plays smoothly (at least on my rig), and the maps and skins are good. However, it feels rushed - no first-person skins, no original-trilogy or prequel-trilogy skins, inconsistencies between SP and MP, and the balancing issues. Overall, it's still a good game, which I would and do recommend to people (and for the record, I think patch 1.03 is just fine). Jedi Outcast just doesn't take me to my Happy Place TM, like MotS did :cool:

Nathan Wind
06-03-2002, 09:01 AM
when la was making good games, they didnt need patches. i have a bad feeling about any attempts that raven makes on their next go as well, unfortunately