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View Full Version : Stop it.(Response To Artifex)


icefox98
05-29-2002, 11:03 PM
Stop trying to glorify yourself. "retirement" from a video game? Hrm... I thought your articles on your site were decent, and were enjoyable to read. But now "retirement?" arrrgh. No need to say that. Not like your the Michael Jordan of JK2. Hehe.

DannyJAllTheWay
05-29-2002, 11:11 PM
Though he does make it seem a little over-the-top, he does make some good points.

icefox98
05-29-2002, 11:30 PM
In the early days of jk2, maybe. But then he started acting like he was the messiah, jesus,god,allah...of jedi outcast. I mean...to take a game that seroiusly....well, I guess only he can answer that. If he knows so much about how games work and how to win at them, and hes acting all unsatisfied with jk2, I have an idea. GO DESIGN JK3. Hell, even a jk2 mod. Its sure a lot easier to bitch about something than to put in years of effort to design it.

Cedrin
05-30-2002, 12:17 AM
I highly doubt he was that good with version 1.02. You read his guide and it quotes, I **** you not:

"Strong Stance -- All the best players I've met have used this stance. This should be renamed to, "Experienced Stance" or "Thoughtful Stance" because it is the only stance that allows you to choose a swing and move in the direction of your choice. The range is fantastic; as is the damage."

Yeah, use all red you n00b.

DannyJAllTheWay
05-30-2002, 12:31 AM
I don't like it when people only use heavy. That's all that I will say :D :p :) :( :mad:

Vestril
05-30-2002, 01:06 AM
Yeah, use all red you n00b.

Ermm...given his rather impressive record, and insights into the game, I think n00b would be a term that basically doesn't apply to Artifex.

Apparently his style of play was to pick the most effective, and do it again and again and again. This is obviously an intelligent way to win, but it strikes me as rather boring. Apparently I am right, since he's gotten bored and is quitting. I doubt he'll be missed in the servers...

Nathan Wind
05-30-2002, 01:15 AM
hey, i used primarily red in 1.02, and i had the best, most exciting fights with the best opponents in that stance. i wont say that i was limited to only the red stance, but it was definately the stance i preferred in matches with good opponents.

Lime-Light
05-30-2002, 01:48 AM
Its pretty funny he has the belief anyone cares about him leaving. On top of that, he'll be back anyway.

Cedrin
05-30-2002, 02:34 AM
He likes that some people think him as an idol. Hes just a glory seeker.

Vestril
05-30-2002, 03:14 AM
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
hey, i used primarily red in 1.02, and i had the best, most exciting fights with the best opponents in that stance. i wont say that i was limited to only the red stance, but it was definately the stance i preferred in matches with good opponents.

I wasn't trying to say red stance is boring, just that move spamming is, if that was directed at me :). Apparently real, competitive play in JK2 is boring--Artifex has basically outlined it as such, and he is the only self-proclaimed tournement winner I've come across.

To the others--I'm sure you're right to an extent, but none of that suggests that he's an unskilled player, and none of it limits his scope of understanding of this game. I personally pity him, since he can't have fun with this game and I can, and he put so much effort into it and all I ever did was have fun.

Lord Sokar
05-30-2002, 01:46 PM
I can see where he is coming from about red stance, it is a little on the boring side, but nothing can match the fact that even a small blow will cost you upwards to 100hp (keep shields handy).

The best players or switch hitters, or use different styles. Nothing will throw off a opponent in combat like popping them once with a good heavy stance hit, sliding behind them while clicking to yellow stance, and finishing them at close distance.

You gotta love it. Of course, that was on 1.02. Now they're just as likely to block you from behind while attacking someone in front of them.

Rejoice nOObs! This patch is for you!

Koenig
05-30-2002, 01:57 PM
I'm with Artifex, prehaps the quiting idea is a little extreme, but the armies of players that do the following:-

1)Run Round Backstabbing(Haven't thankfully seen this)

2)Kickers(Yup one of my mates even does it, and It annoys me)

3)Pushes+Slash Combo people(these are the ones you see the most, they push you to the ground, and stab you, these really get up my nose)

4)The Ones that ignore the Icon above your head that say "You are typing".

5)The clans that try to take over other peoples servers, we had a load who vote kicked us all when we joined our own server.

man it annoys me

Jason036
05-30-2002, 02:02 PM
I'm gonna have to agree with this thread. I don't know who this guy is, nor do I care. It was nice of him to post his strategy guides and they are quite useful, but honestly, making a big deal about leaving a video game is quite stupid. I'm guessing this guys Artifex has no other life besides video games and his only friends are people on the forum. Yes, I'm only speculationg, but honestly this is just a video game. Maybe this guy should try fishing or something.

The thing that gets me is this guys a big video gamer and yet knows nothing about how games work. Everyone knows there will be a new patch coming out sooner or later and that will change the game again. To me, part of the fun is adapting to the new patches style. It keeps me interested in the game. Take Counter-Strike for example, I have been playing the game since it came out and I still play it because the patches change the game play and keep me interested. I was an extremely good player in CS 1.3 and it just got boring going into pubs that had no competition. CS 1.4 comes along and now I'm back down to everyone's level and it takes me quite awhile to get as good as I was in 1.3.

My point is that I think patches are always good for a game and if you don't like a certain patch, just be patient, another is always soon to follow. Another point, quit talking about this guy, your just making his so called "retirement" more glorified. Though I guess I'm doing it too by even posting this. LoL.

Happy gaming and remember, it's just a video game, and yes, I know I'm saying stuff everyone else has already said, but what are forums for right, hehe.

Jason

Orangina_Rouge
05-30-2002, 02:25 PM
Originally posted by Jason036
The thing that gets me is this guys a big video gamer and yet knows nothing about how games work. Everyone knows there will be a new patch coming out sooner or later and that will change the game again.

Are u SURE of this ?? Can u swear it on your life ???
Coz obviously that s u who dunno a thing about Gaming industry

Raven made the game ...they get paid for it
Developping a patch will get them 0 $ ......if fact it will COST them money since it involves time and for pro devs time is a valuable thing
The only thing they can get for doing a patch is get a Rep of supporting their games in the long term ....But they already got a rep for not doing it with their previous games

So guess what now since we don t have a word from them since a long time ?? ......yeah we re stuck with crappy 1.03, and that s why Artifex leaves

C'jais
05-30-2002, 02:26 PM
I think i'm going to add even more fuel to the flame by stating this:

Pro 1.02 players are glorifying the unpatched game.

I simply think that because they are now down to everyone's level or because the red stance is now completely useless (which it isn't really) or some other little thing they don't agree with, they bitch, whine and blame the n00bs and what have you. My idea is that a lot of people are simply following the most vocal people and agreeing that 1.02 was perfect. Not everything in the old version was perfect, far from it. Raven fixed something, and they're gonna try to fix the rest.

As some wise fellow once said on this board:

What if 1.03 was the unpatched game, and 1.02 came and "patched" it? Everyone would cry about the fundamental changes in the game and so on.

I'm contradicting myself here, but please try not to glorify the old days (btw, the game has pretty much just got out) and stop convincing other people to join the "pro 1.02 cause", in an effort to convince raven. They will patch the game again, so calm down.

Orangina_Rouge
05-30-2002, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by cjais
I think i'm going to add even more fuel to the flame by stating this:

Pro 1.02 players are glorifying the unpatched game.

I simply think that because they are now down to everyone's level or because the red stance is now completely useless (which it isn't really) or some other little thing they don't agree with, they bitch, whine and blame the n00bs and what have you. My idea is that a lot of people are simply following the most vocal people and agreeing that 1.02 was perfect. Not everything in the old version was perfect, far from it. Raven fixed something, and they're gonna try to fix the rest.



WRONG
We ( myself including ) glorify the 1.02 game cause it is not BORING
Winning in 1.03 recquire to use the same tactics over an over
It doesn t have the diversity 1.02 had....in short it S BORING

So the problem with us is not that we re not capable to adapt to 1.03 ...we already did and it s why we find 1.02 better cause winning was FUN there

Spider AL
05-30-2002, 02:47 PM
I agree with Orangina wholeheartedly. In 1.02 all the weapons and force powers were extremely useful and well balanced. Now, if you have ANY sense at all you use Absorb, the flechette, pull and backswing. When fighting a serious opponent there is no incentive to vary your tactics as whoever uses those four most effectively, wins. It's that simple. Some of us try not to use them in our games, and yes, it's less boring... but as soon as a serious threat appears in the form of a halfway decent player, then you either put up or die. Again, it's that simple.

I personally pity him, since he can't have fun with this game and I can, and he put so much effort into it and all I ever did was have fun.

And competitive players may pity you my friend, for you have never known the sweet taste of a victory steeped in training, expertise and hard work, and seasoned with the savoury tang of nerve-wracking heart-pounding combat for a prize. That's what competitive play is all about, and there's no sweeter taste, I assure you.

I won the Jolt FF sabres championship a couple of weeks back. I tried to vary my tactics all the way through the tournament, but I was merely lucky I didn't fight someone who might have forced me into using nothing but pull/backswing. I could have made every kill using that tactic, and it would have been cheap, tedious and frankly rubbish. Of course in other tournaments, people WILL try to pull/backswing every time. That's why competitive play will be boring, and that's probably why Artifex is quitting.

I'm currently lobbying for pull to be disabled in Force tournaments and in Sabres only FFA and duel servers, and I've met with some success. So that's why I'm not quitting. Pull's the cause of a lot of boredom, and I think that sabres only games will be a better place without it.

Also Etz and I have been discussing the possibility of a mod that removes pull's knockdown effect. That would equally stop the boredom of the tactics.

Jason036
05-30-2002, 03:26 PM
I have the answer to all of this, and it's been said before.

If you do not like the game, then quit playing it. No one is forcing you to play. Just quit playing, see, that easy. Now you don't have to bitch and complain because now you have nothing to complain about.

Again, if you don't like the game, quit playing it.

By the way, in response to me not knowing anything about gaming. I do some editorial work for Gamespot, now Gamespot Complete. So that should clear that up.


Jason

C'jais
05-30-2002, 03:34 PM
Originally posted by Spider AL
Also Etz and I have been discussing the possibility of a mod that removes pull's knockdown effect. That would equally stop the boredom of the tactics.

Very good idea. I've never liked the knockdown idea of pull, it doesn't make any sense to me at all.

Jason, as much as i agree with you, you have to let people post and "whine" in the forums, it's a way of airing your opinions on things and solve people's problems. I do, however, have a problem with people who turn hostile and ruin the fun for other people here.

Nathan Wind
05-30-2002, 03:36 PM
jason, thats whats happening. thats the point of the post.

you know, the worst part is pull, dfa, heal, a visible un-uberfied absorb all had a major role in creating a deep balanced game.

pull was important. it levled the playing field for saberists and gunners. even the knockdown was important.

but i guess in this new unbalanced version, measures need to be taken to again balance the game. (i oh so hate to even think this)

thats, frankly, a great idea spider

Havoc Stryphe
05-30-2002, 03:43 PM
Artifex and others are claiming that this new patch 1.03 takes away from the competitive players and ruins the game for them. I ask you, this is a computer GAME right, not an Olympic sport?

Webster's Defines Game as:

game (gâm), -n 1.an amusement or pastime 2. the apparatus employed in playing any of certain games 3. a contest for amusement in the form of a trial of chance, skill, or endurance, according to set rules 4. a single contest at play, or a definite portion of play 5. the number of points required to win a game 6. a particular manner or style of playing a game 7. a proceeding carried on like a game 8. a trick; strategy 9. fun; sport of any kind 10. wild animals, including birds and fishes, such as are hunted or taken for food or profit

etc... the rest of the definitions have to do with the wild animal and hunting themes

The ongoing theme here is fun and/or amusement. You purchased a game just as everyone else here did. By definition, we expect to have fun with this game. Instead you would rather define your existence with the statistics you acquire playing this game. You have lost site of what it is this product was designed for... fun.

If you believe that it is only fun to acquire points/frags/wins, then you will lead a most disappointing lifetime. You can't always win, and if you base your happiness off winning, then you will find yourself amongst some serious bouts of depression within your lifetime. You do realize you could still win, with every aspect of this game nerfed, but it would take a little (or a lot) longer? That is unacceptable to you. You must acquire points/frags/wins as fast as possible and accumulate enough to keep your "cyber status" of uber-coolness. Why is this? Is it because your reality is out of your control and not as you'd like it, so you find something that you CAN control and slowly base your happiness on that reality, and if someone came along and changed things to where your amount of control waivers or even diminishes you become indignant and/or aggressive to the point of elitism?

We as a gaming community want to have fun, of course this is why Raven & Lucasarts released Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast as just that: a game. Perhaps if it was released as a Job, career, utility, weapon, tool etc. you could justify the amount of complaining and vocalized bashing you have spewn forth, and rightly so. Those devices are meant for more serious and exact applications. However, games are meant for fun. Sometime I wonder if you guys can even say that word without twitching and/or falling to the floor convulsing madly.

I, for one and as many others have mentioned, can have fun when being struck down by a player in all their ass-fighting glory. I can get a kick out the many ways I've died. I have fun learning from my mistakes and those of others. But I sense that you base your existence on your ability to amass large scores, maybe even your self worth, therefore stripping the game of it's inherent "fun factor". It becomes nothing more than war waged on each other. The kind of war that to the winners goes the spoils of status. It becomes a mental drain, an obsession to prove yourself to those noobies who unknowingly wander into your self-proclaimed crusade and to continue your dominance over those you've sent packing before.

Why else would you need "instant" kills, If not to acquire large amounts of score as quickly as possible? You simply ignore the fun aspect and begin your crusade to control that which has replaced the reality which you can't control, all the while ruining it for those who have come to experience fun with a game that delivers 3D immersion and a Star Wars atmosphere.

Shame on you for ruining the community, and discouraging noobies from darkening our doorway! Shame on you for attempting to single-handedly muddy a software developing company’s good name by rash and judgmental verbal bashings! But most of all, I feel sorry for you that you would rob yourself of the experience of true fun. It is you who will go through life strangely incomplete and lacking true happiness. You will try to live your happiness through the lives of your children, all the while pushing them into the vicious cycle you yourself could not escape. If you can get this worked up over a game, just imagine what how you'll deal with the real dilemmas you'll undoubtedly face sometime in your lives: Jobs/careers, layoffs, breakups, deaths, mortgages etc...

You should evaluate your lives and your definition therein of "fun", because that's what this game is all about, whether it be version 1.03 or 9.64, so sit back relax and enjoy the simple things in life, like getting lucky and accidentally killing an opponent online with a move you never intended to make in the first place! ;)

Hateplow
05-30-2002, 03:46 PM
THREAD CLOSED



...damn, im not a admin!

C'jais
05-30-2002, 03:55 PM
That was a rant Havoc! And you can't deny it!

But it was a good rant, and a much needed one...

*Me steps in front of Havoc*:

-"And that goes double for the rest of you!"

I agree, some people take a game too seriously, but that's just geek culture for those not-in-the-know.

Meditate on this, I will....

Cal-Gon Gin
05-30-2002, 04:02 PM
Blah blah the JKII 1.03 patch has ruined the pure joy and skill of 1.02...blah blah...the Quake 3 1.27 patch has ruined the pure joy and skill that was 1.17...blah blah...QuakeWorld has ruined the pure joy and skill of NetQuake...blah blah

Its always the same thing, game in and game out. Patches come out for reasons, and sometimes gameplay gets changed, purposely or no. Usually purposely as exploits are developed (*cough*CS*cough*). Usually the game is improved in some way (IMO--the 1.29-1.31 patches of Q3 added air control, and don't DARE tell me that QW wasn't a hell of an improvement in netcode over NQ). And gamers (especially the so called "pro" gamers who are still trying to make Quake 3 into QW via CPM. Oh, wait, *I* play CPM...) continue to prove themselves among the most conservative of folks on the planet. Its like once they learn a move they want the game to stay the same because they fear not being able to regain their "l33t" postition bercause they have to *gasp* learn something new. They might not be able to after all ;) Don't believe me? Join a QW RA server and suggest a map other than dm3...

To paraphrase Yoda: "Play. Or play not. There is no whine."

-thefly-
05-30-2002, 04:05 PM
....but won't somebody please think of the children!!"

jarek
05-30-2002, 04:27 PM
I cant believe this. Artifex is trying to help the game be better, and you wanna whine for him to stop?!

Many people have come to realize that this game is boring...no longer fun. Which totally destroys the "game definition" rant above. We know what the word game means, dont be a smartass.

I dont know where you get off saying Artifex is taking it too seriously. Then you use the "hes a star wars nerd" excuse as your scapegoat. What does that have to do with anything? Maybe he is, or maybe he isnt Either way hes right about the game. Hes obviously a person who enjoys good competition.

C'jais
05-30-2002, 05:06 PM
In my oh-so-humble opinion (as people continually point out):

I think Havoc meant that Artifex was just trying to exploit the "exploits" in the game so to say. He was only playing to dominate other players (getting more kills) and so on. He wasn't having fun in it's purest sense. I'm just trying qoute havoc here, so have mercy....


Why else would you need "instant" kills, If not to acquire large amounts of score as quickly as possible? You simply ignore the fun aspect and begin your crusade to control that which has replaced the reality which you can't control, all the while ruining it for those who have come to experience fun with a game that delivers 3D immersion and a Star Wars atmosphere.

I think that this was Havoc's scapegoat.

Havoc Stryphe
05-30-2002, 05:21 PM
Not to sound authoritative, but perhahps you should reread my post Jarek. Nowhere did I ever say Artifex was a Star Wars nerd, there was no scapegoat about it. I was being as forward as I can be without flaming an individual.

You obviously share the same concerns as Artifex, maybe you can shed light on why it is you need "fast frags"/"quick points"/"one-hit kills". I'm curious as to how you equate speed to fun. It would seem that you just play for status/ego/psychological needs as opposed to playing for enjoyment and/or amusement. Where is it written that an elongated or lengthy duel is no longer considered fun, or if the ability to strike down an opponent in a single blow becomes overly amusing or necessary for a "great game"?

please feel free to address any of the issues I've just brought to your attention, it would sooth my jangled nerves to have sort of rational explanation behind your childish antics carried out against Raven.

Dark Begger
05-30-2002, 05:24 PM
I addressed this issue, and tried to answer your question in my opinion, on another thread..which looked lik you pretty much copy pasted...it was the ....news on 1.04 thread?

Vestril
05-30-2002, 05:27 PM
I'm with Artifex, prehaps the quiting idea is a little extreme, but the armies of players that do the following:-

1)Run Round Backstabbing(Haven't thankfully seen this)

2)Kickers(Yup one of my mates even does it, and It annoys me)

3)Pushes+Slash Combo people(these are the ones you see the most, they push you to the ground, and stab you, these really get up my nose)

4)The Ones that ignore the Icon above your head that say "You are typing".

5)The clans that try to take over other peoples servers, we had a load who vote kicked us all when we joined our own server.

man it annoys me

To the person who said this, and the people who agreed--go back and read his post. He wasn't bored with other people using those moves, he was bored with using them himself.

He created his own problems (this is the 'Dummies' version of Havoc's post...:p)

I cant believe this. Artifex is trying to help the game be better, and you wanna whine for him to stop?!

Many people have come to realize that this game is boring...no longer fun. Which totally destroys the "game definition" rant above. We know what the word game means, dont be a smartass.

I dont know where you get off saying Artifex is taking it too seriously. Then you use the "hes a star wars nerd" excuse as your scapegoat. What does that have to do with anything? Maybe he is, or maybe he isnt Either way hes right about the game. Hes obviously a person who enjoys good competition.

It's true that he wants the game to be better, but he's trying to make Raven fix a problem he creates. You say he's a person who enjoys competition? No...not really, he enjoys winning competition. If he enjoyed competition, he would work at beating people without using one hit kills. He has perfected one hit killing, and is apparently shocked to learn that it's boring.

I love competition, I enjoy getting beaten, and I have never inentionally used a one hit kill (not even on those lagged out players--I don't even know how to do them). Why not, you ask? That cripples your play, you say? I don't care, I still do a decent job of drubbing other players, and I actually have fun, which is more than I can say of Artifex, and experience suggests that others who play his way will come to the same conclusions, just at a later date.

Cal-Gon Gin
05-30-2002, 05:30 PM
Originally posted by Orangina_Rouge


WRONG
We ( myself including ) glorify the 1.02 game cause it is not BORING
Winning in 1.03 recquire to use the same tactics over an over
It doesn t have the diversity 1.02 had....in short it S BORING

So the problem with us is not that we re not capable to adapt to 1.03 ...we already did and it s why we find 1.02 better cause winning was FUN there

I played quite a while last night, and did pretty well too (I'm still learning timing, etc.). I backstabbed once. All night. And I won most of my duels, using different tactics each time! *gasp* My last kill was an intentional throw miss that caused my opponent to come at me, meanwhile my sabre returned to me via their back. They said, "Nice move." So I dispute your claim that success in 1.03 comes from using the same tactic all game.

Please don't give me the whole "1.03 is a single move spamathon" arguement--fact is the game is currently growing in popularity, and the growth (possibly related to the release of EP2) coincides with the patch. The servers would still be overrun with new players if the patch had never been released. As folks learn the game, the "diversity" in moves will grow.

Of course, I don't play JKII:JO to wrack up frags (that's what Quake3 Instamush beryllium is for), I play to have fun and outwit my opponent.

C'jais
05-30-2002, 06:05 PM
I'm now writing this to convince other people it is possible to have fun duelling in 1.03:

I play without special moves or throwing. If somebody pulls a "medium finisher" on me, i strike them in the back if i can. it is very easy to avoid, once you get the hang of it. I have yet to find a way around lunge, but i'm getting there, usually i can see it coming, and try to move behind them and sometimes strike before they can pull a backstab. As so many have already pointed out, DFA is pathetically easy to spot and very easy to avoid, it's almost a sure way to be struck if someone tries it on me. If I end up in duel versus a guy who doesn't spam a move, it mostly revolves into a fight of striking him in his side or back. Frontal attacks rarely work, as most people have found out by now, except by button-mashing or using the "block-breaker" red stance. BTW, I only use yellow stance; fast is too uncontrollable without looking like a moron, and I don't like making a 5-second swing with red, and looking like a moron. This is just my opinion.

I'm not saying that i'm leet or exceptionally skilled, but i have yet to be in lower part of the scoreboard.

So, for me, playing this game now is improving my lunge-counter skills and anti-assfighter moves. I only play on public servers and my local LAN, but I have met some very good opponents and it is definately not everyone who is an assfighter.

This is just how i have fun, i don't spam moves and i can still kill. It IS possible. And it IS fun trying to find new ways to counter the new... ahem... tactics...

Nathan Wind
05-30-2002, 07:28 PM
also in that definition, contest was emphasized just as much. i have fun with games. i also have fun in having conversations and watching movies. in no way are those joys comparable.

at best this argument is like trying to compare basketball to dungeons and dragons and arguing reform in either directioin, and at worst its comparing the sat's to watching a movie.

fine. i will throw my 2 cents in and make an abstract comparison that i think this game is really like.

it is a game of decisions. now, in 1.03, its decisions without a tradeoff. if one decision is cool and the other is crap, why would you choose the crappy decision? its like choosing between getting your ass kicked and not getting your ass kicked. choosing between nothing and something.

now ill get really abstract and mathy. i believe these to be law.

purpose or ruleset (objective) + variety of viable options + chaos=fun


basically a variety of viable ways meeting an objective. there may be a variety of ways to meet an objective, but unless they are viable, it is not fun.

this can be said for movies too. if the purpose is to have a positive experience seeing a movie, and there are lots of good movies, its fun. if there is 1 good movie and a bunch of crap, then its not as fun.

in jedi knight2 multiplayer, the purpose is to kill each other. the patch eliminated viable options and thus my fun. people can argue that i should just deal with it, but frankly, i had alot of fun with this game and i dont want to give up on it yet.

before, it was choosing which flavor of star wars themed ice cream you wanted to eat. now its a choice between a good vanilla and a variety of things not as good, like ass. if the purpose is to have a positive experience (fun) when eating ice cream (ruleset and purpose) then choosing between a nasty flavored chocolate, nasty flavored strawberry, ass flavor, and good vinalla, its not really a variety of viable options. yes, you have bad chocolate, bad strawberry, ass, and good vinilla, which is a variety, but why would you choose anything other than vanilla if it left a sour taste in your mouth when you were hoping for a sweet one?

i mean vanilla was always good and i enjoy it, but where is my good chocolate?

with 1.03 you either love vanilla, or you are coughing up balls of chocolate and ass hair. and this used to be my favorite ice cream store.

now, my favorite ice cream store sells really good vanilla, and really bad other stuff. if i want to have vanilla, like regular saber moves, then i will go back. but if i wanted other stuff, its not a good place to go. i used to love how guns and sabers related to each other more than anything else in the game. basically a multi-flavored bite of ice cream. if everything other than sabers sucks, why would i go back if i want alot of really good flavors in my mouth.

i know people live and die by the saber and by "non-cheap play,"
but in reality, this store will loose all its buisness once people get tired of it. vanilla is the flavor of the month, and its all this place is serving.

these moves were here before, they just werent as strong, and everything else as weak. now people have to eat their vanilla a certin way as well, other wise its too sweet. now you have to pull your punches and thats just not good enough for me

i want my old choices back. i want to enjoy chocolate and vanilla and not pull my punches. this game is dying.

kind of abstract, but i hope my point gets across.

icefox98
05-30-2002, 09:58 PM
How did my original post turn into *gasps* yet another "this patch sucks" thread. Lets try and stay on topic about how big a loser Artie must be in real life. Hehehehe =) I'll try to get the juices flowing again.......how is it that he has the time and effort to make a website dedicated to jk2 "strategy" post all of his "strategies", says that its the fault of Raven making the game bad, when in fact, its the PLAYERS LIKE HIM that spam all of the backwards moves...the 1.03 patch, I agree was not a very good "addition" but, ever realize that this community is full of....(for lack of a better term, I must use this) lamers? I mean, does someone point a gun to your head to make you walk around backwards trying to score a backsweep/stab? The answer is no. Artifex, I am truly glad you are leaving, one more idiot gone that takes a video game too damn seroius. Now, maybe some more of you can leave, too........

P.S. If you dont like all of the backstabs, join a server with friends, where you can implement your own rules. Saber duels (NF cept for jump) are suprisingly fun, with FRIENDS. After all, it is just a game....and Artifex....(Have to say this again) No, you aren't the Michael Jordan of Jedi Outcast.....so stop saying "retiring," your just not going to play a VIDEO GAME anymore. Retirement refers to withdrawing from one's ccupation, or conclude one's working or professional career. Until I can verify your making 5 bucks an hour at playing Jedi Outcast, try and find a better term to use, oh and stop trying to glorify yourself.

gish the monkey
05-30-2002, 10:02 PM
I have two words in the from of a question for you all and a paraphrase.

Who cares?

People who argue in a forum are either insane, or incredibly stupid.

Cal-Gon Gin
05-30-2002, 10:06 PM
Nathan Wind: I can't believe you didn't mention marshmallow topping! I refure to continue any further with someone who denies how good marshmallow topping is. ;)

Here's hoping the next patch will be Neopolitan!
:cool:

Kurgan
05-30-2002, 10:08 PM
Not quite gish, but sadly, a lot of the time, that's not far from the truth, even in a forum as great as our's (I hate to admit it).

Personally, I have been gone for awhile, so I've missed a lot, but if I were Artifex, I wouldn't mind "retiring" simply to get a rest from all the flaming and crap I have to take from every single gosh darn person with an opinion on the forums (he puts up with a lot I think). And I think you'll agree, whether you agree with his IDEAS or not! I thought his site was good enough to link to, and in my book, that's all that counts, not who's "better" or who's a more popular personality with forum regulars.

Nathan Wind
05-30-2002, 10:27 PM
artifex is just a hobbiest. i dont call people who build model airplanes loosers.

and its all about neopolitan

Captain_Ego
05-31-2002, 03:18 AM
Artifex is good, but there is better, most players are just too damn lazy or dont give a rats ass about being on a ladder.

fgStratus
05-31-2002, 03:22 AM
Artifex is not the Messiah of JK2.
Artifex does not claim to be the Messiah of Jk2.
You guys called Artifex the Messiah of JK2. He is not going on a crusade telling everyone how sorely his presence will be missed. The reason why you guys are flaming him is because you previously placed him on a pedestal and he hasn't lived up to your expectation of being that submissive guy on the forums who just posts strategy guides for you to read, to not fully understand, then to make fun of in order to improve your own self images.

Artifex has substantiated his arguments with research and logical reasoning. His research and logic is not perfect, but it is infinitely better than the inane, unsubstantiated arguments that many of you make in your posts.

As far as flaming his opinions go:
Face the facts, many of you are very poor at Jk2. You can't imagine what competitive play looks like, hence you are unable to grasp what he says. But before you flame him for his "newbie red spam" and his opinions, keep in mind that he's done research, has won tournaments (which is how he got his game server). When you guys can also do this (which I imagine some of you will as JK2 matures as a game), then you can talk. Until then, just take his opinions with a grain of salt and move on.

Vestril
05-31-2002, 04:07 AM
You guys called Artifex the Messiah of JK2. He is not going on a crusade telling everyone how sorely his presence will be missed.

He seems to be, he felt the need to post in two forums that he was leaving--what do you think his motivations were?

The reason why you guys are flaming him is because you previously placed him on a pedestal and he hasn't lived up to your expectation of being that submissive guy on the forums who just posts strategy guides for you to read, to not fully understand, then to make fun of in order to improve your own self images.

That didn't really make sense, do you want to try again:confused:

Face the facts, many of you are very poor at Jk2. You can't imagine what competitive play looks like, hence you are unable to grasp what he says. But before you flame him for his "newbie red spam" and his opinions, keep in mind that he's done research, has won tournaments (which is how he got his game server). When you guys can also do this (which I imagine some of you will as JK2 matures as a game), then you can talk. Until then, just take his opinions with a grain of salt and move on.

I played the game.

He played the game.

I still play it, and have fun.

He doesn't play it, and hasn't been having fun.

I win a lot, never play in tournements.

He wins almost always, has won some tournements.

Now to me, this suggests that he knows a LOT about how to win this game, much more than me, and I know a lot about how to have fun with this game, much more than him.

People who suggest he's a n00b can be ignored, since the obviously are hadicapped by a thorough ignorance.

Personally, I have been gone for awhile, so I've missed a lot, but if I were Artifex, I wouldn't mind "retiring" simply to get a rest from all the flaming and crap I have to take from every single gosh darn person with an opinion on the forums (he puts up with a lot I think). And I think you'll agree, whether you agree with his IDEAS or not! I thought his site was good enough to link to, and in my book, that's all that counts, not who's "better" or who's a more popular personality with forum regulars.

I think if you were Artifex, and that was your reasoning--you wouldn't post what was essentially a flowery and technical rant. You would just get fed up and leave. Or switch names and just play, instead of getting caught up in the silly aspects from which some of us (oh but never me:p) get caught up in...

C'jais
05-31-2002, 09:27 AM
The problem as i see it, is that in a melee game with the slightest amount of lag, the luckiest person wins. I know it sounds absurd, but look at quake, you can't go button-mashing and hope to win at the quake-heads. In jk1 and jk2, you *can* go button-mashing and hope to win against a jedi master, UNLESS he spams a move SO bad that you can't do anything against it.

The problem is that while you must have good aim and good dodge skills in shooting games, it's less so in close combat-games, on the net (with lag). You can always hope to hit, and you can always hope to block the attack, but with the slightest amount of lag, it's pretty much the luckiest person who wins.

So good persons in a game as this, just try to exploit the good moves. That is why 1.02 was less about skill as the luck factor was more pronounced; very easy to get lucky. In 1.03, there is more skill required because you have to work a way around the blocking and so employ the special moves to good effect, which is a bad thing IMHO.

icefox98
05-31-2002, 11:34 AM
Yeah we really proclaimed him as being so good. If you will notice the nature of my posts, youll see i never once said he was great. Also, if you would have happen to read anything by him, maybe it be on these forums, on his site, he always says stuff about how he owned a server 15-1, or hows he so great. and using the words, retirement and video game in the same sentance....lol.

Lucky
05-31-2002, 01:50 PM
A skilled JKer could beat someone mashing buttons [insert ridiculously large # here] - 0.

In any arena. There was that much to learn and the lag was that controllable. It was similar with 1.02, and I haven't bothered with 1.03 dueling much, but there isn't a lot of lag compensation involved in hitting someone on the ground.

JK did not involve luck. Some of the best players were aussies who played on 56k and had nearly a second of lag. Saying it involved luck in any way means you never played anyone who had spent a year or 2 honing their game. A lot of us spent 4 years doing just that.

Except for the RPG'd blocking, i'd assume the lag is fairly similar to how it was in 1.02; you have to lead and avoid people on the server, which means you have to be constantly thinking about your ping to it.

People who assume its random because they can't unearth the patterns involved are more or less responsible for the rpg'd nature of the current blocking system. Those are the same people who complained about the 'hit detection' being random, when it totally wasnt. Just had to think with lag.

Thems the breaks.


Lucky

Darth Kaan
05-31-2002, 03:38 PM
"Play. Or play not. There is no whine."


That was a good summery of this entire thread. :)

Diversion
05-31-2002, 04:00 PM
"If you can get this worked up over a game, just imagine what how you'll deal with the real dilemmas you'll undoubtedly face sometime in your lives: Jobs/careers, layoffs, breakups, deaths, mortgages etc... "

I agree even tough I was a Score Whore myself in XwA once

:)

It's always the same no matter what game it is. When I started out in XwA i did so because I've always been a fan of both "Space Sims" and Star Wars in general. For a while I played happily and didn't much care wether I won or lost. I got to pretend I was a Tie pilot and I made online friends to have fun with, what more could I wish for?

Then along came Cases Ladder and WoW, suddenly all that mattered was to have ones callsign as close to the top on a websites table as possible.

As the game matured some names started to get well known, these were the "masters" who always seemed to come out on top no matter what. Naturally everyone including myself wanted to be one of the few, one of the elite inner circle. Some of us asked for advice "teach me I wanna be as good as you..."

In some cases a "master" was kind enough to help a less skilled person out. The problem is that not everyone can do what the "master" can. Just as in Sports, Maths, Cooking or every other aspect of life there are some who are naturally gifted and those who are not. I went to become a pretty decent player but nowhere near the best.

The point is that people seem to refuse to accept that there are players out there who are and will always be far better than themselves.

Next time you loose don't take it to seriously.

If you still want to save your ego then remeber that some of the "masters" might not be better than you if the playing field was leveled.

I was playing with 56k against a T1 guy and when he'd wasted me he said the con didn't matter much. A lot of the "masters" who slaughters newbies won't recognize that they might have a technical advantage because it would make ther acomplishments look cheap.

So there, just play and have fun dammit!

:D

Nill the Mean
05-31-2002, 04:42 PM
Heated debate... OooooOOOoooh!!! Saucy... :p

So ArtifeX has left! Oh well, if he did indeed say that red was the best stance both pre- and after patch, then he must have been a bit of a n00b. Anyone with half a brain can see through this single-minded strategy. Just because you have range and power doesn't mean you always win. So saying that red in the best stance is just BS.

I noticed that a few accusations pop up as soon as certain things are said. People who use red are dismissed as lamers, people who can't land a hit are button mashers... Why the hostility? I can hardly land a hit with 1.03, but that really is the blocking system, because I don't "mash buttons". I discussed this loads in other threads, quite simply put, I don't see how anyone can call this patch perfect when people can block things behind them every now and then. I usually have a ping of 30-60 so it isn't lag causing me to see this.

I'm just waiting for 1.04... I mean, look at the poll on the main page... about 50% of people (out of 7700) say it needs tweaking... are they all button mashers and n00bs? If they are, then I will swim upstream in a river of sh*t with my mouth open, and your welcome to come and hurl verbal abuse at me whilst I do it. Quite simply, there are certain things that need to be worked out. ArtifeX left because he got bored. I can understand that. I have gotten bored with JK2 too. I'm gonna start again when (possibly if) 1.04 comes out. Untill then I'm gonna keep saying what I would like to see in 1.04.

But to close up on this pointless message, ArtifeX left, who cares? I don't. Not because I didn't like him, because I don't even know him. I know he had something to do with those "code" things that were all over the place here. I was too busy playing JK2 around then to take much notice. And this whole "I am the best" stuff that he was talking about... If he can back it up, nice for him, but I still don't care. I'm a good player, I play for fun only, and I never EVER do anything to annoy other people online. Considering that 90% of the people on this planet are either A. Complete *******s or B. Totally stupid, I pride myself on the fact that people complement me on the fact that they had fun playing me, regardless of who won.


To Spider Al:

You won Jolt? Neat. Congratulations... makes me wonder if I should enter a competition considering I gave you a hard time the one time I ever played against you. Shame you don't remember, it was quite funny, you seemed to be making a point out of trying to kill me before anyone else.

What was the point of this post again? I forgot... Blablablabla! Neeeeyuch!

Nathan Wind
05-31-2002, 05:26 PM
thank you. we are all now more ignorant for having read that.

and yes, i would call you annoying

Agen
05-31-2002, 05:30 PM
But it doesn't mean it's bad, i mean if you put a poll up about jk1 you would get it needs tweaking too. every gam eneeds tweaking to suit people so get a life

Vestril
05-31-2002, 05:31 PM
Originally posted by Nathan Wind
thank you. we are all now more ignorant for having read that.

and yes, i would call you annoying

Indeed :(

fgStratus
05-31-2002, 08:21 PM
And Vestril, I truly respect your opinions. However, I think that you are mislabeling the problem with backswings. In real life, people act in their own interest. Some people's interests are to play this game for amusement, yet others play in order to win. So let's get into a little game theory here:
Competitive games essentially boil down to strategies. In all games, there are dominant strategies (those that win against the majority of other strategies), and dominated strategies (those that lose against the majority of strategies.) Naturally, players who want to win will always use the dominant strategies. If there is a varied mixture of dominant strategies, then the game becomes very in-depth as each player attempts to second guess which dominant strategy the other player is using and either use a counter-dominant strategy, or even a dominated strategy that happens to be effective against his opponent's particular strategy. These games are generally well-received in competetitive play. However, when you have a game that has only one or two dominant strategies, the total possible strategical variations is greatly reduced, and the game loses depth and quickly becomes repetitive.
Thus, it is the fault of the game for having too few dominant strategies which causes the game to get repetitive. If you had increased the amount of dominant strategies (for example, make normal moves more lethal) then, even though these competitive players would still use all the best strategies, the game would still be varied and interesting because there would be a large amount of dominant strategies. On the other hand, if you were to remove the players who used the dominant strategies, then the game would be reduced from an "analyze my opponents strategies and styles and then use my counter strategies" into a "I'll use whatever strategy looks coolest and so will he"-style drudgery.

Nill the Mean
05-31-2002, 08:42 PM
I don't say anything bad and I get called annoying, makes me feel pretty good about myself.

Nathan Wind
05-31-2002, 10:38 PM
well said stratus, and you didnt even have to use any ice cream metaphors.

nill, you were being stupid and insulting.

Nill the Mean
05-31-2002, 10:46 PM
I went back to read my post, call it stupid if you want but I can't see what was insulting about it. Maybe that I said I didn't care that ArtifeX left?

Spider AL
06-02-2002, 10:44 AM
You won Jolt? Neat. Congratulations...

Ty. :D T'was a hard won victory, the like of which... oh who am I kidding.

Anyhoo, it was fun. Been a looong time since my old JK1 tournaments, I'd forgotten how much I truly loved the tourney atmosphere. Really, anyone who hasn't tried tourneys should give them a shot.

I gave you a hard time the one time I ever played against you. Shame you don't remember, it was quite funny, you seemed to be making a point out of trying to kill me before anyone else.

If you were giving me a hard time Nill, it's not surprising I should focus my attack on you, is it! :P Take it from Spider AL, you should always put your most dangerous foe under the most pressure.

But I play at least five matches a day mate, so names mean little to me. It's not you, I'm sure it was a match worthy of remembering, but I can't remember them all. I do have screenshots though. Of every match I've ever played, impressive no? :D

Wait up, I'll go look through em.

/me trundles off

/me trundles back into frame

There are about a thousand, so don't shoot me when I say I didn't see you... but what name were you under, and what date was it? I have them classified by date. :)

Etz
06-02-2002, 11:52 AM
LOL
Spider you're impossible :D

Anyway, check your mail at least once a day will you? I want our mod to move >>FORWARD>> :D

C'jais
06-02-2002, 12:07 PM
Stratus, I assume that by "strategies" you mean "special moves" or "exploited moves"? Don't take this personally, but I don't think you meant vanilla sabering.

If in a match you removed jumping. rolling, special moves, guns, forces, red and yellow stance, and any height advantage what would then happen? Would it be fun? It would only be you, an open plain, your blue stance and your foe with his blue stance. There would be no moves of any kind, you'd just charge at each other and duel. Like in the movies I might add. i think it'd be fun, but I can see why many people wouldn't think it was so fun.

But this is where the real skill comes down to it. And this is where melee games fail: You charge at each other, one person trying to block another's attacks, but by some stroke of luck, he gets a hit in. And instead of standing there hoping to block, he decides to attack back. Now, you cannot have superhuman reflexes and foresee every blue attack coming, and neither can your opponent, especially since it's really hard to see anything because of the light flashes. Sure, you could move around, but then your foe would just keep on charging you with his fire button held down. And he would hit you, because you cannot trust the blocking system in this game, no matter what anyone says. There will always be some hit that would get through.
Who would win? The one who just kept his fire button pressed down and hoped for the best, or the one who tried to block and hoped for the best?

jarek
06-02-2002, 05:43 PM
This isnt the first time someone has posted on the boards that theyve decided to quit JK2. This thread has gotten more attention than it deserves.

Vestril
06-02-2002, 06:06 PM
Originally posted by jarek
This isnt the first time someone has posted on the boards that theyve decided to quit JK2. This thread has gotten more attention than it deserves.

Perhaps, but Arti was a pretty vocal member of the community, and one that contributed a lot. That he's leaving does say a lot.

icefox98
06-02-2002, 07:48 PM
You know Jarek, Youre right. I have read all of your whining/bitching posts about this game, and you are DAMN RIGHT. You know, you and Artifex are really right, now Jarek, please, follow Artifex's lead...and quit. If you think this game sucks so much, please. Dear God. Quit playing. And Stop posting messages on this forum. Go back to Quake, please.

P.S. The beginning of the post is saturated with sarcasm, if you didnt catch it.

Fubs
06-02-2002, 08:51 PM
Everyone says he should "play to have fun", but how do you define fun?

Some people play for the sake of playing, run around with a lightsaber killing everything that moves, not doing to well, but enjoying yourselves in the process.

that is all well and good, but is only one definition of fun.

COMPETITION!
To be the better than the next person, to be the best. To get recognition of your skills, and to perhaps win some prizes.
This is a driving factor for a lot of people too.

I played for the competition, I like to use my skills to prove i was better than everyone else on the server. If i come first, then I feel good, if i dont, then i work harder next time. I could play a duel server and win 9/10 games (not counting DFA spammers, the only big problem pre-patch), varying my tactics and not being lame. Those who beat me played with skill above my own and deserved the win, but i would be planning my strategy for our rematch.


Now the only way to win is to use a one hit kill combo, pull sweep, or just backstab. If you play for the competition, this is the ONLY move to use, and it removes the competiton element. It is no longer a contest of who has more skill, but who can pull off that one move first. If you dont use the move, and play with skill, you dont get anywhere near the top of the scoreboard, and although you know you played more honorably, you know that you have been beaten by a bunch of morons who onlt know how to use one move. Either way, for the competitive player the fun is gone.

I stopped playing shortly after the patch, i saw where this would lead as soon as the first backstabber appeared, and my variation in force powers was reduced. I see now my predictions were correct. I only play CTF now and then as that is the ONLY gametype which is not dominated by the lame players (unless its sabers only, which is boring in CTF)

BlackDove
06-02-2002, 08:56 PM
Who cares if he wins or if you win. YOU WAVED WITH A LIGHSABRE DOOD!!!!! :p

jarek
06-03-2002, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by icefox98
How did my original post turn into *gasps* yet another "this patch sucks" thread.

Welcome to the Jedi Knight II Forum.

jarek
06-03-2002, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by icefox98
You know Jarek, Youre right. I have read all of your whining/bitching posts about this game, and you are DAMN RIGHT. You know, you and Artifex are really right, now Jarek, please, follow Artifex's lead...and quit. If you think this game sucks so much, please. Dear God. Quit playing. And Stop posting messages on this forum. Go back to Quake, please.

P.S. The beginning of the post is saturated with sarcasm, if you didnt catch it.

Read what you wrote. Don't you feel stupid? Grow up kid. You call me a whiner? LOL look at yourself. Brat.

Nathan Wind
06-03-2002, 09:10 AM
jarek, it looks like the whiners are more mature than you are, at least what this thread makes you look like.

and someone above me reiterates a major point. competitive people are being alienated from this game. seriously. see how many people will be here in a year if this crap doesnt get fixed.

Norin Radd
06-03-2002, 09:14 AM
CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG!!!!!

icefox98
06-03-2002, 11:18 AM
Wow. I am dumbfounded. You really got me. Considering you have no idea what my age is, you are reffering to me as a "kid," and "brat." Good show, my friend! Good show! Shower me with your wit and intelect! The logic in your "comeback" was amazing! Your "brat" and "kid insults really hit home, man. Keep up the good work.


P.S. I would say if someone was post 21 years of age, and still played video games AT ALL, instead of living a life that wasn't being hindered by High School....is a complete and utter loser who should really look in the mirror =). Oh yeah, and the, "Lol look what YOU wrote," witty retort was not short of astounding, either. Keep up the good work.

Dark Begger
06-03-2002, 12:52 PM
hmm. well ice, there are people who are older who play JK2 for competition, and they are clan leaders and server owners usually. So I don't think post 21 aged people should NOT be playing games. I am reaching that stage..(19) and have not lost interest in games AT ALL. I still LOVE games. But anyways, you guys should stop yelling at eachother. You will never change eachother's minds, and this will turn out to be an endless arguement. Can you guys please save us the boring flames and just let this go?

BlackDove
06-03-2002, 01:20 PM
Jarek, Icefox, pathetic the both of you :D. It takes skill to fight over the forum hehehe...

TheDarkSide
06-03-2002, 02:58 PM
Here's what it comes down to folks.

People play a game, games don't play themselves (errr well maybe single player AI does..you get my point :) )

People spam moves, moves don't spam themselves. Really anyone who says a blanket statement of "The only way to win now is to do <FILL IN A WHORED TACTIC>" is playing with the wrong people. You are most likely playing with people who will try to whore you first, and so it is a matter of who janitors or pull/throws quicker. And to claim that this is boring....well BIG SURPRISE.

Let me restate my main point: Who you play the game with matters much much much more than what "exploits" are in the game in the first place. Play with a bunch of random a-holes and you can expect to have an unsatisfying experience. Play with a bunch of cool guys (or gals) who have the same expectations as you and feel the same way you do about the game and you will get a much greater fulfillment out of it.

If your "goal" in a game is to win in the quickest most dominating way possible every second of the time you are playing it, and you find yourself playing like-minded fellows.....whose fault is it that the game has "bored" you into "retirement"? The game's for giving you the tools to bore yourself, or you for using the tools the game gave you to that end?

Quite simply, like most other things in life, the things that are the most fun are those things that you share or experience with people you know. I mean how many of you have gone down to the train station and picked up a few random strangers to head down to the amusement park for a fun afternoon of rollercoasters, water rides and cotton candy? I'll go out on a limb here and say none of you. The reason why is obvious, they could be jerks, mass-murderers, people who think parks are stupid...in general, people who would bring your fun afternoon to a halt. Why would you expect any different from something else you want to be fun, like say a computer game experience? Would you blame the amusement park if those random strangers "ruined" the day for you?

To Artifex, I feel some amount of pity. It's obvious he put a lot of time into his site, his guides, etc, and they've done a lot of good to many people. The pity isn't directed at that though, but the fact that he can't enjoy the game in any other fashion then the one he pigeon-holed himself into. It's blindingly obvious to me that if he were to find around 15-20 like-minded buddies and play exclusively with them, just about everything he said drove him away would be nullified. If those 20 guys are all back-stabbing, pull/throwers then you made a error in judgement (which is rather easily remedied)....

TDS

Kiell_Randor
06-04-2002, 03:39 PM
I have to join what I think is the majority of people in laughing at Artifex and his 'retirement'. I played with him some before the patch, and he was a solid but not outstanding player. I did not play with him after the patch, but I cannot imagine things changed terribly much.

His guides make for interesting reading, but by no means are they a 'bible' for JKII saber fighting. There is more to the game than red style. I rarely use red swings at all myself, and I feel comfortable fighting any of the red-style kick addicts I have come up against.

But if anyone wants to talk about placing Artifex on a pedestal - he's tried to do it himself, rather obviously. Why else would you announce your retirement from a computer game? If he wasn't seeking limelight, or to make himself into something more than he is, he would just quit, stop posting, and be done with it.

Solo4114
06-05-2002, 02:21 AM
I've been following this and similar threads since this guy made his grand announcement, and honestly, I couldn't care less.

What's interesting to me, however, is that, as many people have said, ArtifeX's own desires drove him to burning out on this game. I understand that different people have different definitions of fun, but come on. Honestly.

Art chose where to play.

Art chose (more or less) who to play with.

Art chose how to play.

The game never forced him to do anything. It never restricted the moves he COULD use, he simply opted to use moves that, surprise, surprise, get boring when you do nothing BUT them.

I'll admit, I don't think that this game is really for the competitive community. Not the competitive community that I know, anyway.

Most posts I've seen from competitive players have been complaints that "fights take too long now. The ONLY option is to backstab."

[Ed McMahon voice] NO sir. You are INCORRECT!! HA HA HA!![/Ed McMahon voice]

If the game DIDN'T have the backstab, what would happen to your competition? Honestly. Think about it for a second before you fire off a "WTF WOULD YOU KNOW, N00B" style response.

You'd have to play long drawn-out duels. It'd take a while to rack up 20 kills in an FFA server.

SO WHAT? Learn a little patience, man. Competitive does not necessarily equal "faster than Speedy Gonzalez after doing an 8-ball." I think the issue here is what YOU want from competition, and how YOU feel competition should be. This goes DIRECTLY to TheDarkOne's point about fun = who you play with.

The competitive community sounds (and admittedly, I don't play in it, so I don't know first-hand) like it's made up of people who demand fast fights, fast kills, and fast scores. This mentality is fairly typical in most FPS games, and is usually catered to in this type of game, so that's perfectly understandable. To date, every FPS that I've played has let you kill a guy in no more than 5 hits, if you have a decent weapon. (admittedly, the pistol in Doom took a few more, but you get the point)

Maybe part of the problem is the preconceived expectations and desires of the competitive community, and their wish to make this game conform with those desires. You want instagib? This game ain't for you, unless you spam backstab. You really probably ARE better off playing UT. And I'm not saying this in the sense of "F you, LOSER!! Go back to UT!! I'm a REAL jedi." I'm saying that this game, at least in its current form, and, from what Raven has said about how the patch was intended, is NOT about instakills in any form.

Folks have said that Raven is trying to alienate the competitive players. I disagree. I think the competitive players, like ArtifeX, are victims of their own mindset. The game is not designed along the traditional lines of an FPS. You're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole. It's no wonder you're disappointed. The competition in this game, at least in sabre only combat, is not really about who gets the kills fastest. To me, at least, it seems to be more about who gets consistent kills. Try adopting this attitude and you may find that the game can be fun again. Even with blocking. And even with reduced damage.

My point is that with a little bit of patience, you can still be competitive. Certainly, it'll take longer. And whoever hits the kill limit first will still win, so in that sense, speed does count. But honestly, I'd rather win 6 intense, drawn-out, tough fights and be at the top of the scoreboard, than win 25 instakill fights where I used the same move over and over.

Now, like I said, I'm not part of the competitive community. My attitudes may be totally outside what the competitive community's attitudes are, and that's cool. But if that's the case, if the competitive community is unable or unwilling to play a game where you actually do have to take 5 minutes to kill one guy, then they're right. This game isn't for them. That's not going to kill the game, however. Nor is ArtifeX's leaving, which is why it's so goofy that he felt the need to come here and announce his retirement, like he's a beloved sports hero or something. No one's going to write a song with lyrics that go "Where have you gone, ArtifeX. Our nation turns its lonely eyes to you. What's that you say, Mrs. Robinson? ArtifeX has left and gone away..."

Anyway, I'm rambling here now, so I'm gonna cut this off here soon. I don't think the game will die because the competitive community disowns it, but I don't think that the competitive community NEEDS to disown it. They just need to adapt to the idea that the game doesn't conform to the usual FPS standards. Maybe after that, and after instantly lethal, unblockable moves are removed from the game (since then, the game would be leaving you NO CHOICE but to use them and only them), you'll be able to play competitively. Reevaluate, adapt, and try to enjoy it. If you just can't seem to do so, then don't play it competitively anymore.

But please, no more grand announcements of retirement, ok? It just looks ridiculous.

Kiell_Randor
06-05-2002, 11:22 AM
Well said Solo. You are very accurate in your observations, in my opinion. I ran a successful team in both Mechwarrior 4 and Ghost Recon that was a part of the 'competitive community'. Mechwarrior 4 was ruined by the patches released in attempts to counter cheating. The patches completely fubared the net code and took the fun out the game.

So, we switched to Ghost Recon. Awesome game, great net code. Until the cheating started. After playing one too many matches in which we were shot in the head by an opponent who was *running* on the other side of the map (something technically impossible without cheating), we came to this game.

And I decided to do something with my 'clan' which was rather different. We kept things completely internal. We have our own rules on operating (no abusing backstab, or other current game imbalances), and they actually work. And every one of our members still loves the game and finds joy in the endless variations on style and fighting techniques which are possible when your focus is not on running around backwards trying to get that next kill. Much of our fighting is done as one vs one duels, with others watching.

What I am trying to say in a long-winded fashion I suppose is, it is all in the environment you place yourself. And it is all in the mentality with which you approach the game. If you remove the substance from the game by abusing imbalances endlessly, of course the fun will be gone. I can't imagine the Ghost Recon cheaters felt great looking in the mirror. The game is like a piano: what you get out of it depends on how you play it.

TheDarkSide
06-05-2002, 01:06 PM
Excellent posts by Solo and Kiell.

Kiell's experience is very similar to my own. Our JK2 clan was developed not with the intent of organizing a group to take down other organized groups, but to gather a dependable and fun group of guys to play JK2 amongst ourselves. People who feel the same way about the game as we do, and have the same attitudes. I hesitate to call it a clan, because that implies ladders/matches, etc. We're more like a JK2 family.

Kiell's last line says it all...

TDS

icefox98
06-05-2002, 02:03 PM
Solo, Kiell, thank you very much for responding so thoughtfully to this thread, great to see people posting replies with thought and logic, and actual facts to back what they are saying up. Thanks again.

SDF h36hYp3r21
06-05-2002, 02:38 PM
is this a joke?!? a lot of people responding seem to care more for artifex then they seem to realize...those that say taht art is a competitive whore rather then playing for fun is full of bs....dont mind my opinion,how do you know if hes not having fun playing the way he is? okay maybe hes quitting because of boredom, we all get our fire burned out once in a while. does it really matter if hes playing for fun or not? jeez, let the dude do what he wants, personally i give him credit for putting a lot of time in his guides, i learned a thing or too about the game through it, but to say the least it didnt mean i had to follow his standards. just like stated earlier art chose to play by his terms just like each and everyone of us, just learn to adapt to the playing environment (server), if you try that maybe it could be a lot more fun...

if it you dont care about the dude then dont even bother with it, your giving him the attn that he wants...

'nuff said:D

The Daywalker
06-05-2002, 06:03 PM
Unbelievable.

As may or may not be indicated on the side here, this is my first post. I can usually just look at these things and laugh, but this whole epic (and I do believe that it has reached the status of epic) of the Chosen One laying down his lightsaber has finally compelled me to speak.

I don't call into question any of Artifex's purported skill. I don't know the guy nor have ever played him. He could be the greatest thing to happen to Jedis since co-ed locker rooms. I don't call into question his participation in the community. Apparently his guides have been a help to many a person just starting out. What I do have issue with is the gall, the sheer hubris, of the need to announce a (wait for it) RETIREMENT from (here' s the payoff) PLAYING A GAME. You retire from a job. You retire from the armed services. You retire from a sport. You remove a game from your hard drive. There is a difference.

This is especially lame considering the reason for Artifex's seemingly unavoidable self-removal from the field of battle. It's because he's gotten "too good". Now is this for real? I swear, I'm laughing just typing it. He feels that he can only be successful if he lowers himself to the level of the less skilled players and performs manuevers that are effective, but "cheap", i.e. backstab/sweep spamming. In his analysis, all other moves are ineffective against an opponent who uses these techniques. Thus, the game has become a pedestrian exercise in who can knockdown/backstab/sweep whom first. Now, this is my point, and between the "Artifex r0xx0rs, Artifex suxx0rs" posts, I haven't seen this point raised anywhere.

PERHAPS YOU AREN'T AS GOOD AS YOU THINK YOU ARE.

Ouch. All in caps too. Now before I get slammed from the Diciples of Artifex out there (or as we have termed them at work, the DOA's. Catchy, huh?) I'm not here to slam Artifex or anyone else, flaming people I don't know is less than entertaining to me. This is a general statement, not directed at one person. It just seems to me that if I considered myself one of the best in any field of competition, if something came along, a move , a strategy, anything, that tested my skill to such a degree, then I would relish the challenge of overcoming it. So it's too easy getting frags with the spam move? Try something else. So competitions are being won with a cheap manuever? Construct a new defense. Holy crap, you're not at the end of an existing learning curve, you're at the beginning of an entirely new one. To view the current state of affairs as, I believe Artifex put it, "the end of the road", is ridiculously short sighted. If you find yourself being killed everytime you try a move other than backstab, then perhaps you should work on the other moves until that doesn't happen. It's as simple as that. It's much easier to say "I can't succeed using these strategies, I quit", than "I can't succeed using these strategies, I NEED TO WORK HARDER".

So, please, if you're not going to play the game, so be it. No media conferences. No press releases. Simply be content in the fact that something was not to your liking and you gave up. That's all the announce ment we need.

Damn, I wish I had made that shorter so someone would read it.

Lime-Light
06-05-2002, 08:34 PM
What I dont understand, is why everyone cares. I for one dont give a **** if some guy who says he's good "retires" from a "computer game". Yet, this has become some kind of dilema, one so huge Daywalker here has chosen to write an essay on, and whos discussion spans two topics and 5 pages. WTF?

jarek
06-05-2002, 08:54 PM
Originally posted by Lime-Light
What I dont understand, is why everyone cares. I for one dont give a **** if some guy who says he's good "retires" from a "computer game". Yet, this has become some kind of dilema, one so huge Daywalker here has chosen to write an essay on, and whos discussion spans two topics and 5 pages. WTF?

I agree. He quit, its old news. Have you guys even noticed that Artifex hasnt even replied to any of you lamers? You're wasting your time.

He quit and he obviously doesnt care if it "bothers" you or he would have responded. Get a life guys.

QuietSith
06-05-2002, 08:57 PM
Jarek, didn't we play together on a server or are you a different person?

icefox98
06-05-2002, 11:00 PM
Yay, this thread is going to live to the end of the World! People keep knocking it, but (thanks to the likes of jarek who keep posting on it, and monitoring it, which keeps it alive and kickin'!) Thanks, Jarek maybe with our combined powers we can make this thread more powerful than ALL of lucasforums!

-Your friendly,

The Intergalactic Being; Rosco: The Prince Of Space

(name was taken for the forum so i had to go with Icefox)

Lime-Light
06-06-2002, 02:03 AM
/\
who are you talking to?