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Ingrown
06-06-2002, 05:07 AM
As I sit here at my computer, I think about the freedom that I have... I think about how the world would be now if soldiers in the U.S., Canada, Britain, and Poland had'nt fought for what they thought was right. It's 1:06 central time right now, Just about the time U.S. soldiers were making way to Normandy. I wonder what was going through their minds as they made their way to those fateful beaches, or what those paratroopers were thinking as they flew to inland France. I would just like to thank those that survived and met their demise in the war that took millions.


*Salutes*

Thank You

setsuko
06-06-2002, 10:37 AM
By that time, the Soviet Union had pretty much defeated the German army anyway, and was moving towards Berlin, and ending the war. How much do you salute them?

Sure, I detest everything that the nazi party stood for. But if we are to salute everyone who helped defeating them, we are to salute everyone.

*salutes the brave russian soldiers at Stalingrad at least as much as she salutes the D-Day soldiers*

Com Raven
06-06-2002, 11:18 AM
well, it may sound strange as I am german, but I also salute the western allied forces !

Why not the russians ?

Well, they also had their part in quite some unnecessary violence against civil people !

Not to say Hiroshoma is excusable, but we're talking about War in Europe, right ??

setsuko
06-06-2002, 11:23 AM
Lets just say that no side of the conflict were saints (for instance, Brittain also put a lot of jews in concentration camps, as did the americans).

gonk-raider
06-07-2002, 07:53 AM
Yeah,SURE WE DID..SURE We did.. are you high??

setsuko
06-07-2002, 10:58 AM
Nope, I'm not high. I have just spent a long time studying history. Though, jews were not as prevalent in the US camps, since they were more ment for anyone with asian heritage. No, they were not death camps (like Chelmno or Auswich), but the prisoners (who were most often not trialed at all) were treated very badly. The camps were, just as in Germany, situated away from settlements.

That is not the point. The point is that there is a western revisionist zeitgeist that tries to forget things. Neo-nazis trying to prove that the holocaust never happened is a grave matter. And so is the fact that so few knows about these camps. If we are ever to learn to better ourselves, we can't pretend that these things did not happen.

Same thing happened in Sweden, were it was for a very long time (until the recent decade) unknown by the people how much the government traded gold for steel to the Nazis during WW2. Just because you didn't learn in school about it doesn't mean it did not happen.

History revisionists makes me feel sick.

Tyrion
06-08-2002, 04:00 AM
The way I see it, history doesnt repeat itself, it reproduces tenfold.Look at the American Revolution.They fought a somewhat bloddy war.Then look at the French Revoulution.Bloody is too weak of a word for this war.Civil war, bloodier than the FR.WW1, everyone evolved, millions died.Think that it couldnt get worse?WW2,million died and the beggining of the end with the A-bomb.The cold war, each side didnt know if they were gonna be nuked by the other.And now, after the 9-11 attacks, civillians are now a target.I really dont want to know what is gonna happen in the future.:(

setsuko
06-08-2002, 10:20 AM
Well, civilians have been the main target in wars since the start of the last century, which was when we really started to have more civilian than military casualities. It is indeed easier to win a war by killing civilians than by killing military, thereby the A-bombings of Hiroshima, and even worse, Nagasaki, which was nuked AFTER Japan took diplomatic contact to end the war. Look at the war in former Yugoslavia, where they are still digging up new graves and founding out more massacres each month. Look at the civil war in Rwanda, where a whole people, the Tutsu, was almost hunted out of extintion in the timeframe of just a year. Look at Death Tolls for the Major Wars and Atrocities of the Twentieth Century (http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat2.htm) for a really tragic list of evidence that in the recent century, civilians have been the main target of almost all military operations.

And in this century, will it be better? No. Look at the history of the airplanes at 9-11 (which, by the standards of the US-Army only qualifies as an 'incident'): USA's response to an attack against civilians was a lot of talk about how bad attacking civilians is, and then they started bombing hospitals and living quarters in Kabul, even to the extent of bombing a Red Cross medicine warehouse.
And Iraq? That was a 'just war' wasn't it? Only evil muslims killed by brave western soldiers?"9 Oct. 2001 Slate "Explainer" acknowledges the possibility of 350,000-500,000 excess deaths among children since 1991". The UN Food and Agriculture Organization claims that 560 000 is more correct. That is what the brittish, american and UN efforts there has caused this far. That is our work. That is a lot of children. An effort that has perhaps killed far more than it could ever hope to help, if it was successful.

So things looks bleak. As long as both parties of every conflict things that killing civilians is a perfect way of reaching their goal, civilians will be killed. It's as simple as that. What we can do, and I think we are doing this very moment, is to communicate as much as we can with people in different countries than your own. I mean, I know few people who are as tolerant to other cultures as my friends who spend a lot of time on the internet. Get out there, speak to albanians, palestines, israeli and afghanistans. Then you are not as likely to ignore the news of their homes being crushed underneath tanks, since it won't be featureless strangers who are affected, it will be your friends.

It's a small step, but look through that list, and you might agree that every step possible is necessary.

Jan Gaarni
06-08-2002, 10:47 AM
Excellent, EXCELLENT post, Setsuko.

gonk-raider
06-08-2002, 10:53 AM
Lets go father back in history..NO culture is pure.. get off your high horse. your stalk came from no better.

setsuko
06-08-2002, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by gonk-raider
Lets go father back in history..NO culture is pure.. get off your high horse. your stalk came from no better.

Is that an excuse? No. That is just a way to try to justify to yourself that the next massacre is 'unavoidable', and the next, and the next one after that... "we have the right to kill their babies just because they killed someone elses babies 23 years ago"- what are you thinking that you are achieving with that kind of thinking?

And this kind of brutality doesn't only stem from wars: During the Vietnam war (that is, after the French part), there were more women killed by their husbands in the US than american soldiers killed in Vietnam. Thats some 50 000 women.

My post was about the fact that people have a tendency to honour the soldiers killed in wars, have special parades for them, build monuments and parks and name days after them. But when it all comes down to the truth, it's most often the women, children and civilian men who truly litters the graves after the wars. It's also this population that has to endure the raiding, pillaging and raping that is performed by all armies involved in wars. Think of that next time you see a memorial monument for the 'brave soldiers' of whatever country.

Tyrion
06-08-2002, 03:25 PM
Uh, Setsuko, have you taken english for a major in college?cause that writing is great.I'm gonna start Junior High next year and my english is *cough*baaaad*cough.But that writing is way better than most I have seen on the lucas forums.

setsuko
06-08-2002, 03:43 PM
English is my secondary language. I'm swedish. But thanks for the kind words ;)

Oh, and yes, I've studied one year of english linguistics at the university here in Lund.

Com Raven
06-09-2002, 11:39 AM
not to forget the 8th Air Fleets execution of Dresden...

gonk-raider
06-09-2002, 12:37 PM
Yeah war sucks...your point??????? cause i really dont think you had one

Com Raven
06-09-2002, 03:15 PM
who me ??

my point is that Shakira has a great rear-side...

setsuko
06-09-2002, 07:54 PM
My point, dear Mr. Gonk, is that glorifying soldiers is a dangerous thing. That it leads to ignoring the true face of wars. And by the way you avoid the actual discussion and try to dismiss it at first sight tells me just how bad things are. Oh, and I love that you try to perform some kind of personal attack on me instead of discussing it in an adult way. That tells wonders about your 'insight' in the matter.

Sorry everybody if that was a flame. I try to avoid flaming. But when people are act daft towards me...

...their daftness comes back like a boomerang.

gonk-raider
06-09-2002, 08:36 PM
You read far too in to things there ace.. personal attack???? That was hardly a person attack if you scale what im capable of and no **** we shouldnt in call cases..but think of it this way what if nazi germany was allowed to go unchecked if a war didnt break out.. I think we owe the soldiers who died some gratitude.. then again your people were more then willing to roll over for the nazis... funny isnt it

setsuko
06-09-2002, 09:33 PM
I don't get your point. First you say that massacres are ok, because "no culture is pure". Then you say that my argument is invalid because Sweden did not fight with the allies in the WW2? And yes, "my people" rolled over at first sight of the nazis. Thats why Sweden was as training ground for allied guerillas, spionage on the germans, and a major refuge for minorities escaping the german and the soviet war machine, which would be impossible if Sweden fought the Nazis and lost (which it would, since Sweden had very little armed forces). And at the same time, they denied a lot of people from the Baltic area asylum, propably leading to their death. Every state commit evils, just as you said.

And did you know that the Nazi party was pretty much allowed to go unchecked for quite a while, thanks to Great Brittains Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain? They were allowed to annex huge part of the Czech republic, and invade Poland, with only a protest from GB, and a non-caring shrug from the USA.

And do you pretend things have improved, or have you just closed your eyes? Because that's why you can't discuss my post, right?How long did it take to force Milosevic to abandon his seat of power after the genocide in former Yugoslavia began? Ten years? And where is "the butcher from Baghdad", Saddam Hussein? He's a president. And Henry Kissinger, who has untold innocent lives on his (lacking) conscious? He got the Nobel Peace Prize. Heh. And though Mussolini lost his powers after WW2, Franco was left alone by the allies, leading to the fact that Spain kneeled under a fascist dictatorship until it's first election. In 1977. Where were your glorious soldiers then? In Africa, president Mugabe openly claims that all whites will be driven out of Zimbabwe, with deadly force if necessary. And G W Bush gets acclaim and says he fights for 'global democracy' while he supports executions of both juvenile and mentally ill. Le Pen wants to throw out all non-europeans from France, and gains popularity and influence. Ariel Sharon talks smugly on television about how he wants to kill all moslims on earth, and how proud he is over the massacres at Sabra and Shatila. Palestinian leaders whips up fanaticism. The list goes on and on. It's funny how things turn out, you see, todays Hitlers are not stopped. They are "left unchecked", or even rewarded, no matter how much you show gratitude for some dead soldiers.

There are no D-Days against these people.

History, and international politics, are important subjects, and not to take ligthly upon.

gonk-raider
06-10-2002, 01:36 AM
ok well i guess you make sole valid points altho your acting as if what was done didnt matter at all.. I sitll ask you how it would have ended up if it was never confronted there tough guy..Im sure every side that your not affilated with has "massacared" and your side is apart of the devine light??? right? holyier then thou?

Tyrion
06-10-2002, 03:02 AM
Gonk-Raider, when you say "Holier than thou",say is right...then again, english is your second or third launguage like most people here?

Anyway, I didnt see anyway in his posts that says he thinks any other "massacre" that he isnt affilated with is divine light.

Com Raven
06-10-2002, 08:37 AM
well, the swedish didn't do that much except being blitzkrieged by us nasty germans...

sad thing, scandinavia is great...

Kanubis
07-10-2002, 06:39 AM
You know, the Channel Islands were the only British Soil to be occupied during the war, and we have a whole lot of concrete bunkers to show for it. We have an underground base built by polish slaves (most of whom died) under the Nazis (and I will always think of it as Nazis rather than Germans). I hate war and I have trouble watching it glorified, but when you live in a place where the effect that the allied campaign had is so evident, you have to appreciate it. We actually celebrate our liberation day as a public holiday.

So yeah, I don't like glorifying war, but I do understand and appreciate it.


By the way, Sweden is a great country, because it gave us English Mr Sven Goran Eriksson.